Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[CropleyWasGod]

If BDO sell Tynie it will be part of bankruptcy/insolvency proceedings under instruction from the major creditors (ukio and UBIG) or more properly their admins. There is nothing that Lithuanian law can do to stop that from happening as it will be covered by EU regulations on cross border insolvency.

Pedantic point, but it wouldn't be under their instructions. It would be as a consequence of BDO's own statutory purposes, the last of which is "realising property to make a distribution to one or or more secured or preferential creditors.".

In other words, it would be BDO making that decision, no-one else.

In reality, of course, we would get to that point by failing to obtain a CVA or the agreement of the secured creditor(s). Indirectly, it would be their actions that brought us to the sale. But not their instructions.

[Kojock]

Put more cherry in their bakewells?

Eat 5h1t and die. :dunno:

[Dunderhall]

An obvious typo in the article as well, which Hibs.net could no doubt help them out with. :greengrin

The three groups who have made bids for Heart of Midlothian plc have been asked to ------ by the company's administrators.


Wait for Sidney's letter?

[CropleyWasGod]

Wait for Sidney's letter?

We have a winner :top marks

[Moulin Yarns]

An obvious typo in the article as well, which Hibs.net could no doubt help them out with. :greengrin

The three groups who have made bids for Heart of Midlothian plc have been asked to ------ by the company's administrators.

So, Ian Hislop's team.... what are the missing words?

Bake more cakes?
F off and die?
Get yourself a serious offer before you bother us again?

I had to read it twice before I realised what was missing is actually at the top of the page.

Show us your money demand Hearts administrators
The three groups who have made bids for Heart of Midlothian plc have been asked to by the company's administrators.

Can I just remind people of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9znA_dwjHw

and

http://allpoetry.com/poem/851714-Tick_follows_Tock__waiting_-by-pozo

[CropleyWasGod]

If any problems are going to come from Lithuanian legals, will it not be that UBIG's shareholding in the Yams can't be sold? I can't see how anybody can stop a sale of Tiny if the secured creditor agrees.

Anyway, question for the experts: everybody seems to be talking about only 2 options.

- sale of HMFC including Tiny wrapped up with CVA or
- liquidation

Isn't it possible for BDO to sell Tiny and HMFC separately without liquidating? Proceeds of sale of Tiny go to secured creditor who agrees to release security, then Foundation of Muppets buys what's left at 0.5p/£ CVA and either rents ground from new owner or finds somewhere else to play. Wouldn't that be the best way to secure value for the creditors and continue the business as a going concern?

It's a fair point and, if the media is to be believed, BDO have been marketing the assets at the same time as the business. They may be thinking along the same lines.

However, what exactly would FOH be buying? Only the name and SPFL share, IMO. Not worth a helluva lot. They would then have the problem of funding the ongoing rent, which they don't have under their current plan.

[CraigHibee]

An obvious typo in the article as well, which Hibs.net could no doubt help them out with. :greengrin

The three groups who have made bids for Heart of Midlothian plc have been asked to ------ by the company's administrators.

So, Ian Hislop's team.... what are the missing words?

Bake more cakes?
F off and die?
Get yourself a serious offer before you bother us again?

withdraw their bids and let the team die?

[Keith_M]

I realise I'm no expert in these matters but surely it's normal practice for the Administrators to ask to see proof of funds before deciding on a Prefered Bidder

:dunno:



If this was my line of work, it would certainly be one of the first things I would want to see.

[CropleyWasGod]

I realise I'm no expert in these matters but surely it's normal practice for the Administrators to ask to see proof of funds before deciding on a Prefered Bidder

:dunno:



If this was my line of work, it would certainly be one of the first things I would want to see.

You're becoming an expert, though, as we all are :greengrin

It is indeed normal practice. Thinking it through, it would be wrong of BDO to appoint a preferred bidder with out any such checks, present a CVA to the creditors, get it voted through..... only to find out that the bidder had no cash.

Now... contrast that with the procedures carried out by David Murray a couple of years ago.....

"You got the cash, Craigy?"

"Aye. Straight up."

"Yer in. Give us yer pound."

[Mac]

You're becoming an expert, though, as we all are :greengrin

It is indeed normal practice. Thinking it through, it would be wrong of BDO to appoint a preferred bidder with out any such checks, present a CVA to the creditors, get it voted through..... only to find out that the bidder had no cash.

Now... contrast that with the procedures carried out by David Murray a couple of years ago.....

"You got the cash, Craigy?"

"Aye. Straight up."

"Yer in. Give us yer pound."

"oh and Craigy, ye are gonna pay that tax bill eh?"

"withoot question Davie, already writing the cheque"

[Keith_M]

...

Now... contrast that with the procedures carried out by David Murray a couple of years ago.....

"You got the cash, Craigy?"

"Aye. Straight up."

"Yer in. Give us yer pound."


Do we actually have any evidence that Whyte ever PAID that pound? Surely failure to pay would unravel all subsequent agreements. I demand an SFA enquiry :wink:

[Dashing Bob S]

It's all getting rather exciting now. It seems that nobody can do much about stopping the train crashing into the buffers. Next week might be where big decisions are made. The admins, potential bidders, board and football authorities will have to determine just what is exactly going into the new season and how long can it last?

[Ozyhibby]

Did the bidders for the Rangers assets have to provide proof of funding this quickly? Does this indicate that one of the bids is acceptable? If someone offered me a pound for my house I would not bother to ask for proof that he has the pound before telling him to GTF.
This admin seems to be proceeding a fair speed. If, as BDO say, they have enough funding till Xmas then where is the time pressure coming from? The SPFL?

[JeMeSouviens]

Did the bidders for the Rangers assets have to provide proof of funding this quickly? Does this indicate that one of the bids is acceptable? If someone offered me a pound for my house I would not bother to ask for proof that he has the pound before telling him to GTF.
This admin seems to be proceeding a fair speed. If, as BDO say, they have enough funding till Xmas then where is the time pressure coming from? The SPFL?

My guess would Ukio's liquidator and, in turn, the Lithuanian central bank which is ultimately picking up the tab for the Yams' years of excess.

I think this might be a move to weed out Massone, the only bidder who claims to have the pot to do the proverbial in. It will probably also get rid of Shoeless Bob, leaving just the Foundation of Muppetry.

[greenginger]

My guess would Ukio's liquidator and, in turn, the Lithuanian central bank which is ultimately picking up the tab for the Yams' years of excess.

I think this might be a move to weed out Massone, the only bidder who claims to have the pot to do the proverbial in. It will probably also get rid of Shoeless Bob, leaving just the Foundation of Muppetry.


But what proof can the Muppets provide ? I know they are supposed to have the backing of a few wealthier than average Yams but unless they have handed over the cash to the Foundation Treasurer ( was Borthwick his name ? ) are BDO going to accept a stack of promises written on the back of an envelope.

Normally a promisery note from a bank or the like would suffice as proof of funding, but promises from bunch of Gorgie merricks will not impress the Admins.

[Sanger]

My guess would Ukio's liquidator and, in turn, the Lithuanian central bank which is ultimately picking up the tab for the Yams' years of excess.

I think this might be a move to weed out Massone, the only bidder who claims to have the pot to do the proverbial in. It will probably also get rid of Shoeless Bob, leaving just the Foundation of Muppetry.

Agree ultimately the Lith government is pulling all the strings of Ukio/UBIG having had to borrow £200 million to make the depositors of Ukio whole. They want to find out if Massone's crew have real money that they can put on the table now. If not then I think it's straight to liquidation where they can pick up £4 to £5 million minimum from a property developer. Lith government's aim is to minimise final bill to economy and tax payer for saving Ukio's depositors. As I have calculated before on this thread Romanov's HMFC adventure has cost Lithuania in region of £65 million. £2 mill from FOH or happy Bob is not going to cut it with them.

[jacomo]

Agree ultimately the Lith government is pulling all the strings of Ukio/UBIG having had to borrow £200 million to make the depositors of Ukio whole. They want to find out if Massone's crew have real money that they can put on the table now. If not then I think it's straight to liquidation where they can pick up £4 to £5 million minimum from a property developer. Lith government's aim is to minimise final bill to economy and tax payer for saving Ukio's depositors. As I have calculated before on this thread Romanov's HMFC adventure has cost Lithuanian in region of £65 million. £2 mill for FOH or happy Bob is not going to cut it with them.

BDO: Hi Ian, what proof can you provide of the funds you claim to have behind your bid?

IM(MP): This is no longer a bid, it's a movement...

BDO: Right you are, about the proof of funds though...

IM(MP): ... the largest movement in Scottish football history.

Yam chorus: Big Teams do Big Movements. We won the war. 5-1 (not the Dinamo result you choob), 1902.

BDO: *sigh*

[BroxburnHibee]

BDO: Hi Ian, what proof can you provide of the funds you claim to have behind your bid?

IM(MP): This is no longer a bid, it's a movement...

BDO: Right you are, about the proof of funds though...

IM(MP): ... the largest movement in Scottish football history.

Yam chorus: Big Teams do Big Movements. We won the war. 5-1 (not the Partisan result you choob), 1902.

BDO: *sigh*

:top marks :not worth :faf: :faf: :faf: :faf:

[Sanger]

BDO: Hi Ian, what proof can you provide of the funds you claim to have behind your bid?

IM(MP): This is no longer a bid, it's a movement...

BDO: Right you are, about the proof of funds though...

IM(MP): ... the largest movement in Scottish football history.

Yam chorus: Big Teams do Big Movements. We won the war. 5-1 (not the Dinamo result you choob), 1902.

BDO: *sigh*


BDO speed dial for the for Tynie for sale signs and the sheriffs to padlock the gates of the dump.

[Gus Fring]

Did the bidders for the Rangers assets have to provide proof of funding this quickly? Does this indicate that one of the bids is acceptable? If someone offered me a pound for my house I would not bother to ask for proof that he has the pound before telling him to GTF.
This admin seems to be proceeding a fair speed. If, as BDO say, they have enough funding till Xmas then where is the time pressure coming from? The SPFL?

There is a degree of that. I've been told it was explained to BDO that the authorities had no desire to have this drawn out any longer than in needs to. Unfortunately the SPFL are limited in what they can do at this very moment.

[haagsehibby]

BDO: Hi Ian, what proof can you provide of the funds you claim to have behind your bid?

IM(MP): This is no longer a bid, it's a movement...

BDO: Right you are, about the proof of funds though...

IM(MP): ... the largest movement in Scottish football history.

Yam chorus: Big Teams do Big Movements. We won the war. 5-1 (not the Dinamo result you choob), 1902.

BDO: *sigh*

To be fair Tynecastle is a very big movement :cb

[Dashing Bob S]

Agree ultimately the Lith government is pulling all the strings of Ukio/UBIG having had to borrow £200 million to make the depositors of Ukio whole. They want to find out if Massone's crew have real money that they can put on the table now. If not then I think it's straight to liquidation where they can pick up £4 to £5 million minimum from a property developer. Lith government's aim is to minimise final bill to economy and tax payer for saving Ukio's depositors. As I have calculated before on this thread Romanov's HMFC adventure has cost Lithuania in region of £65 million. £2 mill from FOH or happy Bob is not going to cut it with them.

Yes, this seems to be the way its heading, provided the legal/criminal stuff in Lithland doesn't muddy the waters further and freeze things up. What's your gut feeling about the timeframe? Do you see Hearts in liquidation before the start of the new season?

[Sanger]

Yes, this seems to be the way its heading, provided the legal/criminal stuff in Lithland doesn't muddy the waters further and freeze things up. What's your gut feeling about the timeframe? Do you see Hearts in liquidation before the start of the new season?

Looks as if will coincide with the start of the season. One wonders if the SPFL are on top of the situation. Surely they must have a deadline if the end of next week to kick the cheats out.

Not having the official UBIG admin in place might delay to the season is underway although I read on the thread 24th of July for that appointment. Maybe those closer to the ground in Lith might know a more definitive date.

[greenginger]

Not having the official UBIG admin in place might delay to the season is underway although I read on the thread 24th of July for that appointment. Maybe those closer to the ground in Lith might know a more definitive date.

24th of July is a date set for the Kaunas Court to consider a written submission without the parties being present. Also mentioned UBIG had failed to respond.

Did'nt sound like there would be any Admin. appointed by the Court that day, but who knows.

[Gus Fring]

Looks as if will coincide with the start of the season. One wonders if the SPFL are on top of the situation. Surely they must have a deadline if the end of next week to kick the cheats out.

They are. They can't just kick them out though. Not yet anyway. The process must be followed.

[jgl07]

Not having the official UBIG admin in place might delay to the season is underway although I read on the thread 24th of July for that appointment. Maybe those closer to the ground in Lith might know a more definitive date.
Will the SPFL allow Hearts to start the season if liquidation is imminent.

BDO have admitted that the money will run out by Christmas. The disruption that Hearts going pop mid season would create would be catastrophic for the SPFL for both sponsors and TV coverage. It would mean one one team sitting out each round of fixtures.

I would have thought that unless there are some cast iron assurances that Hearts can complete the season, the SPFL would find an excuse to punt them and bring in Morton.

[Gus Fring]

Will the SPFL allow Hearts to start the season if liquidation is imminent.

BDO have admitted that the money will run out by Christmas. The disruption that Hearts going pop mid season would create would be catastrophic for the SPFL for both sponsors and TV coverage. It would mean one one team sitting out each round of fixtures.

I would have thought that unless there are some cast iron assurances that Hearts can complete the season, the SPFL would find an excuse to punt them and bring in Morton.

This is exactly why BDO are getting a shift on with regards to getting bids in and confirming that the money is there.

[nribs]

Im not going to pretend I have a scoobie as to what's going on re Hearts admin as it's all very complex :)
But what would happen if Hearts started the seasom in Administration and the best deal was for HOMFC and Tynecastle to be sold separately.The buyer of Tynecastle does not want a football team plsying there and therefore would not rent the ground back making Hearts homeless?
Should Hearts really be allowed to start the new campaign inthe SPFL with so many potential pitfalls? ?

[Geo_1875]

I know we heard that the SFA hearing was delayed to 1st August for whatever reason but is it possible that the SFA know that the hearing may not need to be held because hertz are about to implode spectacularly?

[FranckSuzy]

I am currently enjoying a 'staycation' and making the most of the glorious weather. I have to say that reading this thread is the equivalent of picking up the latest bestseller at the airport and not being able to put it down all holiday :) #allisbalmy

[Kato]

hertz are about to implode spectacularly?


There's two ways that could pan out. Once the spectacular implosion happens there could also be an explosion (every action has a reaction) so there may well be debris; gunk, turd, asbestos, light bulb (singular) shrapnel, pish splashed training gear etc could fly into the air causing injury not to say disgust. A clean spectacular implosion where everything folds in all upon itself finishing in a final pink ping of nothingness, like what happens in the movie Poltergeist, would be something I would pay money to watch. In fact you could build a stand (novel in that area) and sell tickets to see that.

[Pete]

I'd sort of forgotten about all of this hearts stuff. I guess that's what happens when your club has other things, like important football matches, to consider.

I've heard there's a telethon in the pipeline.

[FranckSuzy]

there's two ways that could pan out. Once the spectacular implosion happens there could also be an explosion (every action has a reaction) so there may well be debris; gunk, turd, asbestos, light bulb (singular) shrapnel, pish splashed training gear etc could fly into the air causing injury not to say disgust. A clean spectacular implosion where everything folds in all upon itself finishing in a final pink ping of nothingness, like what happens in the movie poltergeist, would be something i would pay money to watch. In fact you could build a stand (novel in that area) and sell
tickets to see that.

lol! 10/10

[Kato]

I've heard there's a telethon in the pipeline.

Yeah, I heard that. All the Celebs they photographed making their 1-5 sign have been contracted to appear (except The Hoff who can't be contacted and Holly Willoughby who's actually a Hibby). Delia Smith will be exhibiting her "perfect sponge" with a group of ex-players attempting to follow her every move. Should be great telly, ideal for STV.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd sort of forgotten about all of this hearts stuff. I guess that's what happens when your club has other things, like important football matches, to consider.

I've heard there's a telethon in the pipeline.

You heard wrong.

It's a movement blocking the pipes.

[Kato]

It's a movement blocking the pipes.

Event: There's turd blocking the Tynecastle plumbing.

AllisBarry: There's a telethon in the pipeline, Tynecastle saved!!!

(the above is still less bizzare than being allowed to get your sums wrong to the tune of £925,000 in a newspaper article and still be allowed employment )

[lapsedhibee]

Event: There's turd blocking the Tynecastle plumbing.

AllisBarry: There's a telethon in the pipeline, Tynecastle saved!!!

(the above is still less bizzare than being allowed to get your sums wrong to the tune of £925,000 in a newspaper article and still be allowed employment )

:hmmm:

[poolman]

Yes, this seems to be the way its heading, provided the legal/criminal stuff in Lithland doesn't muddy the waters further and freeze things up. What's your gut feeling about the timeframe? Do you see Hearts in liquidation before the start of the new season?


I'm not to sure DBS

I'm more concerned when Hertz come out of admin debt free with a new ground and highly competent boardroom and back to owning us on the park

[The Green Goblin]

There's two ways that could pan out. Once the spectacular implosion happens there could also be an explosion (every action has a reaction) so there may well be debris; gunk, turd, asbestos, light bulb (singular) shrapnel, pish splashed training gear etc could fly into the air causing injury not to say disgust. A clean spectacular implosion where everything folds in all upon itself finishing in a final pink ping of nothingness, like what happens in the movie Poltergeist, would be something I would pay money to watch. In fact you could build a stand (novel in that area) and sell tickets to see that.

:faf:

[green is good]

Since BDO have told the bidders to show them the colour of their money I'm going to predict that the colour will be copper.

[CropleyWasGod]

Did the bidders for the Rangers assets have to provide proof of funding this quickly? Does this indicate that one of the bids is acceptable? If someone offered me a pound for my house I would not bother to ask for proof that he has the pound before telling him to GTF.
This admin seems to be proceeding a fair speed. If, as BDO say, they have enough funding till Xmas then where is the time pressure coming from? The SPFL?

The speed is indicative of 3 things, IMO.

1. as you say, pressure from the authorities.

2. the recognition, from the start, that there is little mileage in a long drawn-out CVA process. It is very different from the RFC scenario in that respect.

3. BDO are, arguably, better suited to this situation than D&P were to RFC's.


Im not going to pretend I have a scoobie as to what's going on re Hearts admin as it's all very complex :)
But what would happen if Hearts started the seasom in Administration and the best deal was for HOMFC and Tynecastle to be sold separately.The buyer of Tynecastle does not want a football team plsying there and therefore would not rent the ground back making Hearts homeless?
Should Hearts really be allowed to start the new campaign inthe SPFL with so many potential pitfalls? ?

That scenario has been suggested before, and it is a possibility.

It would still come back to the SPFL getting assurances from "somebody" that the season's fixtures will be fulfilled. If that's in the form of a bond, that would create a very difficult financial hurdle.

[Col2]

Forest back in for Holt. £150k according to reports.

Not sure if its been accepted.

[Sergey]

if you read up all the detailed analysis - particularly- of Ukio Bankas's problems which I tracked long before they went into administration as the share price plummeted Ukio Bankas problems were down to a whole series of speculative investments that Romanov made through UBIG funded by loans from Ukio Bankas. It is these loans that caused Ukio Bankas to be closed down and made bankrupt. I have posted links and copied reports on this from Bloomberg to this thread over several months.

As I pointed out UBIG is a shell company that Romanov used to wash through loans from Ukio Bankas. That is why it and its directors disappeared into thin air and why Ukio took security of Tynie and HMFC shares as it transferred loans from UBIG to HMFC.

I am not making things up but purely making the logical connection that if Ukio's losses and bankruptcy are down to Romanov's dangerous speculative loans which went through UBIG then UBIG will be Ukios's main debtor. Ukio's administrator will effectively control UBIG. If you are dealing with UBIG's administrator you will be effectively dealing with Ukio's administrator as it lays claim to what is left of value of UBIG's assets.

this logic is much more believable than your assertions to me in private messages that HMFC fate will be decided by Lithuanian law when you have urged me to join the private message board. This is clearly wrong as I have pointed out EU regulation decrees that it is laws of the country that the insolvent company does its business that prevails. That is the UK and Scotland.

Your assertions in another private message that your inside knowledge and contacts in Lithuania you have used to feed journalists in UK is laughable given how far off the pace they have been since Ukio Bankas share price ran into trouble last year all the way to where we are now.


i will continue to post on the public boards sharing my analysis and opinions with all fellow fans on Hibs net using my 20 year plus experience in financial analysis. I suggest you do likewise and put your private contributions up to be shared with us all for critical analysis.

A million thanks for your résumé on the Ukio/UBIG situation - but do yourself a favour, there's really no need to waste time in spelling it out to me. I honestly don't need a tutorial on the subject. I'll also let you off with mentioning my PM's in public as it's really not worth the bother, in fact, why not cut-and-paste them into this thread so all can see? A courteous reply of acknowledgement would have been the decent thing to do.

I'm smug in the fact that you changed your posting stance within a few hours as to the UBIG insolvency practitioner (as I pointed out in my previous reply to you when I highlighted your posts). You seem to want both sides of the argument, insomuch that the Ukio admin will and won't be the UBIG admin...or won't after I pointed out the LT legal side.

I don't doubt that you have some sort of knowledge in this field, but don't try to take the high ground when you arrive at the party when the slow tunes are starting up. Some of us have been at it from the off.


Agree ultimately the Lith government is pulling all the strings of Ukio/UBIG having had to borrow £200 million to make the depositors of Ukio whole. They want to find out if Massone's crew have real money that they can put on the table now. If not then I think it's straight to liquidation where they can pick up £4 to £5 million minimum from a property developer. Lith government's aim is to minimise final bill to economy and tax payer for saving Ukio's depositors. As I have calculated before on this thread Romanov's HMFC adventure has cost Lithuania in region of £65 million. £2 mill from FOH or happy Bob is not going to cut it with them.

And just to dispel any theory you might have that I've something against you - I actually agree wholeheartedly with this post.

[PapillonVert]

And just to dispel any theory you might have that I've something against you - I actually agree wholeheartedly with this post.

Phew! Two of my favourite, must-read and most informative/informed Hibbies on this thread agree!

Hold the smelling salts, nurse, I am feeling so much better all of a sudden. :greengrin

[Dunderhall]

Since BDO have told the bidders to show them the colour of their money I'm going to predict that the colour will be copper.
Allverycomplex, not just copper.
I expect a mixture of:

10532

10533

10534

[Treadstone]

3. BDO are, arguably, better suited to this situation than D&P were to RFC's.

Whatever anyone thinks of D&P, in private I have no doubt its all high fives and back slapping on a 'job' well done.

[CropleyWasGod]

Whatever anyone thinks of D&P, in private I have no doubt its all high fives and back slapping on a 'job' well done.

Thus far, I would agree with you. In terms of what they set out to do, it was a qualified success, although I'm sure they (and RFC Oldco) would have preferred a CVA.

However, that's "thus far". BDO's report on the conduct of the administration might paint a different picture.

[RyeSloan]

Thus far, I would agree with you. In terms of what they set out to do, it was a qualified success, although I'm sure they (and RFC Oldco) would have preferred a CVA.

However, that's "thus far". BDO's report on the conduct of the administration might paint a different picture.

Do you think we will ever get a fair critique of the farce that was D&P?

[Dashing Bob S]

Allverycomplex, not just copper.
I expect a mixture of:

10532

10533

10534

I'm hoping by this time next week the 'complexity' of the situation will be relieved by the utter simplicity of 'they no longer exist.'

[AndyM_1875]

Whatever anyone thinks of D&P, in private I have no doubt its all high fives and back slapping on a 'job' well done.

Well d&P got paid handsomely despite all the rubbish and agendas thrown at them, they would have been glad to get the hell out of there i would reckon. As for Rangers, they were humiliated but emerged full of grievance and paranoia, a smokescreen for the fact that they essentially shed £ millions in debts and humped their creditors, yet they still play at Ibrox and train at Murray Park...

Will Hearts do the same? Doubtful. Very doubtful. Rangers problems were essentially dealt with and sorted over a close season so there was a continuation that the league could work around. Hearts are much more shambolic and the likelihood is they will start the season and then implode further down the line. And unlike Rangers they don't have a worldwide fanbase nor are they a "big club". Hearts are just a bunch of idiots who got well out of their depth big style but by going bust during the season they will actually do more damage to the League than Rangers ever did.

[CropleyWasGod]

Do you think we will ever get a fair critique of the farce that was D&P?

As I understand it, it's part of BDO's job to review the conduct of the administration.

However, they will be under commercial pressure, as there wasn't much money left in the pot. IIRC, they were suing Collyer Bristow for (?) £30m. That work will take up much of the money, and of course there is no guarantee of success. If they're not successful, they might have to curtail their work. It happens.

Even if they are successful, and they come to the conclusion that D&P undersold the assets....that doesn't necessarily mean that NewHun will foot the bill. Cav's view, for example, is that D&P will get their insurers to cough up. A sore one for them, but one which will leave NewHun clean and clear.

In short, it's the Scott Brown response....

Dunno :greengrin


Well d&P got paid handsomely despite all the rubbish and agendas thrown at them, they would have been glad to get the hell out of there i would reckon. As for Rangers, they were humiliated but emerged full of grievance and paranoia, a smokescreen for the fact that they essentially shed £ millions in debts and humped their creditors, yet they still play at Ibrox and train at Murray Park...

.

Absolutely agree with this.

One thing that struck me early on in the RFC story was the extent to which D&P seemed surprised at the level of public interest. To me, they underestimated the "importance" of Rangers. They had been used to dealing with cases that were nowhere near the mainstream media, where they could get on with their work without it being scrutinised and dissected by everyone.

BDO are a different animal. They have been through football insolvencies in England and Scotland, and know just how public it gets... and how (again) important it is to people beyond those immediately affected. Managing that interest is a part of their job, and they seem much better at it than D&P were.

[AndyM_1875]

Absolutely agree with this.

One thing that struck me early on in the RFC story was the extent to which D&P seemed surprised at the level of public interest. To me, they underestimated the "importance" of Rangers. They had been used to dealing with cases that were nowhere near the mainstream media, where they could get on with their work without it being scrutinised and dissected by everyone.

BDO are a different animal. They have been through football insolvencies in England and Scotland, and know just how public it gets... and how (again) important it is to people beyond those immediately affected. Managing that interest is a part of their job, and they seem much better at it than D&P were.

I agree entirely CWG. I seem to recall They thought they had sold the club too at one point to Bill Ng.
Rangers was way too high profile for them and they were too open in my opinion unlike BDO who don't actually say very much, probably quite rightly.

[Dunderhall]

I'm hoping by this time next week the 'complexity' of the situation will be relieved by the utter simplicity of 'they no longer exist.'
I share your hopes. :agree:
It's possible to see two dropping at that point, wait and see though I suppose.

FoH is harder to call.
I can't see their £2m capital less BDO fees being enough, maybe I'm being too optimistic, can they up it?
Working capital has to be mainly pledges from FoH, how that is assessed maybe comes down whether any of the other bids come through next week.

[PapillonVert]

Since BDO have told the bidders to show them the colour of their money I'm going to predict that the colour will be copper.

Wow, an optimist!:greengrin

:hnet:

[Springbank]

Since BDO have told the bidders to show them the colour of their money I'm going to predict that the colour will be copper.

Ha, brilliant

And coppers that can be withheld at any moment once 'her indoors' finds out that there will be NO NEW CARDIGAN for Christmas thanks to hubby throwing it all into the tynecastle wastepipe

[joe breezy]

I share your hopes. :agree:
It's possible to see two dropping at that point, wait and see though I suppose.

FoH is harder to call.
I can't see their £2m capital less BDO fees being enough, maybe I'm being too optimistic, can they up it?
Working capital has to be mainly pledges from FoH, how that is assessed maybe comes down whether any of the other bids come through next week.

I'm no expert but can't see how direct debits from random football fans can be the basis of any serious financial bid.

And only £2million cash for a football club and stadium when the stadium land itself is worth £5million at least.

Liquidate and sell would surely be the demands of creditors?

[lapsedhibee]

I'm no expert but can't see how direct debits from random football fans can be the basis of any serious financial bid.

And only £2million cash for a football club and stadium when the stadium land itself is worth £5million at least.

Liquidate and sell would surely be the demands of creditors?

Yes, but you're not factoring in the political upheaval in Europe if HOMFC were to go pop because of actions by creditors in Lithuania. The fallout from that might easily lead to a potential WW3 situation. Obviously because of their special relationship with World Wars HOMFC would be the first port of call for our government looking to defend the UK.

What I am saying is that the government will sooner or later have to step in to save Hearts in trouble. Our national security may depend on it. The yams have had their fright - let's hope they've learned their lesson - but we should stop wishing for their total demise.

I am too old now to learn to speak German.

[Keith_M]

Yes, but you're not factoring in the political upheaval in Europe if HOMFC were to go pop because of actions by creditors in Lithuania. The fallout from that might easily lead to a potential WW3 situation. Obviously because of their special relationship with World Wars HOMFC would be the first port of call for our government looking to defend the UK.

What I am saying is that the government will sooner or later have to step in to save Hearts in trouble. Our national security may depend on it. The yams have had their fright - let's hope they've learned their lesson - but we should stop wishing for their total demise.

I am too old now to learn to speak German.


Es ist nicht zu spät!


:greengrin

[Sanger]

Can you imagines Ian Murray's conversation with the Liths about not causing an EU fallout/W III when they point out to him HMFC have had the Lith people for £65 million!

[Eyrie]

Can you imagines Ian Murray's conversation with the Liths about not causing an EU fallout/W III when they point out to him HMFC have had the Lith people for £65 million!

The only reason that the Lithuanians haven't invaded us by now to get their money back is they know the Yams' track record when it comes to winning wars.

[lapsedhibee]

The only reason that the Lithuanians haven't invaded us by now to get their money back is they know the Yams' track record when it comes to winning wars.

:agree: We owe it to ourselves to recognise the yams' crucial part in having kept Britain peaceful these last seventy years, and should stop whingeing about their £65m debt - a mere bagatelle in the scheme of things. It'd be negligent of the exchequer not to square things with the rest of Europe so as to allow the yams to carry on unhindered by petty concerns like paying for things.

[Springbank]

Agreed

It's high time we took a leaf out of the yam book. We do owe it to ourselves...

[Prof. Shaggy]

:agree: We owe it to ourselves to recognise the yams' crucial part in having kept Britain peaceful these last seventy years, and should stop whingeing about their £65m debt - a mere bagatelle in the scheme of things. It'd be negligent of the exchequer not to square things with the rest of Europe so as to allow the yams to carry on unhindered by petty concerns like paying for things.

Perhaps Alex needs to factor this into his debating plans:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9930864/An-independent-Scotland-cant-afford-to-defend-itself.html

Will an independent Scotland retain the Independent Yam Deterrent?

PS I don't think that link actually works - that doesn't matter much.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Somebody mentioned earlier this week on this thread that a horse called "Rudi five one" is running today at Newmarket. Its 11/1 on Betfair in a two runner race. Could this be the answer to the FoH prayers?

[kdhibees1]

Somebody mentioned earlier this week on this thread that a horse called "Rudi five one" is running today at Newmarket. Its 11/1 on Betfair in a two runner race. Could this be the answer to the FoH prayers?
Peter Barlow odds they are!!

[Emerald]

Somebody mentioned earlier this week on this thread that a horse called "Rudi five one" is running today at Newmarket. Its 11/1 on Betfair in a two runner race. Could this be the answer to the FoH prayers?

One of the non rummers in the race is called Tax Enough :faf:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Peter Barlow odds they are!!

Cannae believe I actually know what you are talking about, but, did pay attention when the punting nonsense was going on on Corrie last night! You're more likely to get paid out with Betfair though!

[kdhibees1]

Cannae believe I actually know what you are talking about, but, did pay attention when the punting nonsense was going on on Corrie last night! You're more likely to get paid out with Betfair though! Hahaha, very true! :kbacker:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Somebody mentioned earlier this week on this thread that a horse called "Rudi five one" is running today at Newmarket. Its 11/1 on Betfair in a two runner race. Could this be the answer to the FoH prayers?

Jambo horse lost. Obviously not by a nose!

[Onion]

I'm no expert but can't see how direct debits from random football fans can be the basis of any serious financial bid.

And only £2million cash for a football club and stadium when the stadium land itself is worth £5million at least.

Liquidate and sell would surely be the demands of creditors?

:agree: Unless contractual with commitment/penalties, these DDs cannot possibly be a serious part of any bid. If so, would like a bank loan on those terms thankyouverymuch.

[Springbank]

Yeah, Onion, tell the bank manager that I'll pledge £10 a month

You're not a customer, you're a *movement*

[Mikey]

Is there any point in small businesses going through the Small Claims Court now? These are the guys who were fobbed off by Southern for months and months and didn't have the gumption to do anything about it before Admin hit.


The Newspaper Licens - v - Heart of Midlothian DLA Piper Scotland LLP

From here.....

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/sheriff/lists/edi/EDI130724.htm

[greenginger]

Is there any point in small businesses going through the Small Claims Court now? These are the guys who were fobbed off by Southern for months and months and didn't have the gumption to do anything about it before Admin hit.



From here.....

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/sheriff/lists/edi/EDI130724.htm

May'be they want to establish a legal point about the Yams trading insolvently. But to what purpose ?

Go after the directors ? .... they're long gone.

Who are the claimants anyway and would they have any property or equipment being retained by the Club ?

[jgl07]

May'be they want to establish a legal point about the Yams trading insolvently. But to what purpose ?

Go after the directors ? .... they're long gone.

Who are the claimants anyway and would they have any property or equipment being retained by the Club ?

How about going after the auditors for signing off the accounts of an obviously insolvent company?

[Dunderhall]

May'be they want to establish a legal point about the Yams trading insolvently. But to what purpose ?

Go after the directors ? .... they're long gone.

Who are the claimants anyway and would they have any property or equipment being retained by the Club ?
The newspaper licensing agency provide licences to allow companies, institutions etc to copy press cuttings or online articles to staff, students etc under a set of conditions.

Maybe they have been using #allisbarry articles on internal memos. :greengrin

Also surprised to see a globespan action, never knew they were still in admin.
So far their admin fees are £1.3M plus VAT for 5400 hours, average rate of £240-ish per hour.

[Dunderhall]

How about going after the auditors for signing off the accounts of an obviously insolvent company?
If sure CWG will confirm, but they will have covered their backs.
From what I recall the sign off was caveated on future income, player sales and some other things.

[Sergey]

Is there any point in small businesses going through the Small Claims Court now? These are the guys who were fobbed off by Southern for months and months and didn't have the gumption to do anything about it before Admin hit.



From here.....

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/sheriff/lists/edi/EDI130724.htm

This looks like they've infringed someone's copyright.

I'd hazard a guess that they've been using images from the Press Association library and haven't been paying for their use.

The fine isn't huge (circa £5k max).

[...WentToMowAnSPL]

... sign off was caveated on future income, player sales and some other things.

Magic beans ! This signing off accounts lark is easy .... Btw good memory ref player sales... Funny how they won't sell them though

[Treadstone]

This looks like they've infringed someone's copyright.

I'd hazard a guess that they've been using images from the Press Association library and haven't been paying for their use.

The fine isn't huge (circa £5k max).

Hope the stair painting one was legit.:faf:

[Caversham Green]

If sure CWG will confirm, but they will have covered their backs.
From what I recall the sign off was caveated on future income, player sales and some other things.

Maybe Cropleywas Green can answer that one....

The point of an audit report is to allow potential users to draw conclusion from the accounts as presented, so the previous years, where they said that it all depended on the continuing support of UBIG but they couldn't verify that UBIG were capable of providing that support, were ok - you can draw your own conclusions from that. The last audit report said that HoMFC were a going concern as long as they raised enough from player sales and an undefined membership scheme. What it failed to do was quantify the amounts that needed to be raised, so any potential user could not really draw any meaningful conclusion from it - remember that 'potential users' include suppliers deciding whether or not to offer credit terms.

A potential creditor had no way of knowing from the audit report whether the membership scheme needed to raise twenty quid or a million, and likewise whether £20k or £20m would be enough from player sales. It transpired that the two schemes needed to raise £2.5m which anyone who knows anything about Scottish football will know is ludicrous. My view is that the audit report was inadequate to the point of negligence and any creditor who might have depended on the audit report would have a case against the auditors.

In practice there are unlikely to be many such creditors, but the fact that HoMFC went bust a couple of months after publishing an unqualified audit report is a huge embarrassment. The accountancy profession has (or used to have) a robust disciplinary process and I suspect HoMFC's auditors will have more than a few questions to answer. Sadly, we're unlikely to know the outcome of any disciplinary hearing in this case.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Is there any point in small businesses going through the Small Claims Court now? These are the guys who were fobbed off by Southern for months and months and didn't have the gumption to do anything about it before Admin hit.



From here.....

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/sheriff/lists/edi/EDI130724.htm


they pinkoids have been in court more times than judge judy....utter embarrassment of a 'football' club

[jgl07]

Maybe Cropleywas Green can answer that one....

The point of an audit report is to allow potential users to draw conclusion from the accounts as presented, so the previous years, where they said that it all depended on the continuing support of UBIG but they couldn't verify that UBIG were capable of providing that support, were ok - you can draw your own conclusions from that. The last audit report said that HoMFC were a going concern as long as they raised enough from player sales and an undefined membership scheme. What it failed to do was quantify the amounts that needed to be raised, so any potential user could not really draw any meaningful conclusion from it - remember that 'potential users' include suppliers deciding whether or not to offer credit terms.

A potential creditor had no way of knowing from the audit report whether the membership scheme needed to raise twenty quid or a million, and likewise whether £20k or £20m would be enough from player sales. It transpired that the two schemes needed to raise £2.5m which anyone who knows anything about Scottish football will know is ludicrous. My view is that the audit report was inadequate to the point of negligence and any creditor who might have depended on the audit report would have a case against the auditors.

In practice there are unlikely to be many such creditors, but the fact that HoMFC went bust a couple of months after publishing an unqualified audit report is a huge embarrassment. The accountancy profession has (or used to have) a robust disciplinary process and I suspect HoMFC's auditors will have more than a few questions to answer. Sadly, we're unlikely to know the outcome of any disciplinary hearing in this case.
So they were either incompetent or corrupt?

Or both?

[Caversham Green]

So they were either incompetent or corrupt?

Or both?

That would be for a court to decide. My view is that they got it very wrong.

[greenginger]

That would be for a court to decide. My view is that they got it very wrong.


Got it very wrong for £ 140 K fee

[Caversham Green]

Got it very wrong for £ 140 K fee

Yep, and the two points may not be entirely unconnected.

[Dunderhall]

Maybe Cropleywas Green can answer that one....

The point of an audit report is to allow potential users to draw conclusion from the accounts as presented, so the previous years, where they said that it all depended on the continuing support of UBIG but they couldn't verify that UBIG were capable of providing that support, were ok - you can draw your own conclusions from that. The last audit report said that HoMFC were a going concern as long as they raised enough from player sales and an undefined membership scheme. What it failed to do was quantify the amounts that needed to be raised, so any potential user could not really draw any meaningful conclusion from it - remember that 'potential users' include suppliers deciding whether or not to offer credit terms.

A potential creditor had no way of knowing from the audit report whether the membership scheme needed to raise twenty quid or a million, and likewise whether £20k or £20m would be enough from player sales. It transpired that the two schemes needed to raise £2.5m which anyone who knows anything about Scottish football will know is ludicrous. My view is that the audit report was inadequate to the point of negligence and any creditor who might have depended on the audit report would have a case against the auditors.

In practice there are unlikely to be many such creditors, but the fact that HoMFC went bust a couple of months after publishing an unqualified audit report is a huge embarrassment. The accountancy profession has (or used to have) a robust disciplinary process and I suspect HoMFC's auditors will have more than a few questions to answer. Sadly, we're unlikely to know the outcome of any disciplinary hearing in this case.
I don't disagree with anything really, but they were in any way competent in their job, I'd be surprised if they left themselves open to legal action from a creditor.

Playing Devil's advocate for a minute, you could argue the FoH figure of £1M+ a year plus the fundraising recently could amount to £2M for next year excluding any transfers that may have happened outwith admin.

Im not defending them in any way and would agree it was a sham, just my opinion on the likelihood of a) creditors taking action and b) being successful.

How the profession deals with them is a separate issue.

I'm not speaking with any particular industry knowledge, would you expect creditors to start action against them with a good chance of winning? Quite happy to bow to those ITK.

[nonshinyfinish]

Yep, and the two points may not be entirely unconnected.

What happens if auditors say they can't sign off accounts? Do they still get a fee?

[jgl07]

Yep, and the two points may not be entirely unconnected.

No further questions my lord!

[Caversham Green]

I don't disagree with anything really, but they were in any way competent in their job, I'd be surprised if they left themselves open to legal action from a creditor.

Playing Devil's advocate for a minute, you could argue the FoH figure of £1M+ a year plus the fundraising recently could amount to £2M for next year excluding any transfers that may have happened outwith admin.

Im not defending them in any way and would agree it was a sham, just my opinion on the likelihood of a) creditors taking action and b) being successful.

How the profession deals with them is a separate issue.

I'm not speaking with any particular industry knowledge, would you expect creditors to start action against them with a good chance of winning? Quite happy to bow to those ITK.

Certainly, a large part of any audit file consists of the auditor covering his own arse, and as you say the likelihood of any creditor taking action is remote. However, the FoH scheme depended on a change of regime, and that isn't mentioned as part of the projection, and I would take a lot of convincing that HoMFC could sell players for the amount projected and still have a viable squad at the other end.

From my own point of view I just can't see how they could have come to the conclusion that the report they gave was adequate - and that's borne out by subsequent events. I wouldn't like to be part of that audit team at the moment.


What happens if auditors say they can't sign off accounts? Do they still get a fee?

In theory, yes, in practice it rarely happens - the auditors would give a qualified report and be paid.

Once in my long career I had a situation where the company I was auditing depended on support from their US parent and when I saw the parent's account they were effectively insolvent, which meant the audit report in theory had to carry a qualification that said the company was not a going concern. In practice, for ethical reasons we stopped all work as soon as this became clear and both parent and subsidiary eventually closed down. We never got paid for the work we did.

[clerriehibs]

Certainly, a large part of any audit file consists of the auditor covering his own arse, and as you say the likelihood of any creditor taking action is remote. However, the FoH scheme depended on a change of regime, and that isn't mentioned as part of the projection, and I would take a lot of convincing that HoMFC could sell players for the amount projected and still have a viable squad at the other end.

From my own point of view I just can't see how they could have come to the conclusion that the report they gave was adequate - and that's borne out by subsequent events. I wouldn't like to be part of that audit team at the moment.

They created income for their co. though. So who's going to ask the difficult questions of the team, then? Not their bosses (if indeed the £140k facilitated the signing off of the accounts), not homfc, I can't see why BDO would, and it seems unlikely that any creditors will now.

[greenginger]

I've got a sneaking suspicion their Auditors will feature on the creditors list. :greengrin

[jgl07]

I've got a sneaking suspicion their Auditors will feature on the creditors list. :greengrin

I really hope so.

But in the best Yam traditions, they could always sue themselves!

[Caversham Green]

They created income for their co. though. So who's going to ask the difficult questions of the team, then? Not their bosses (if indeed the £140k facilitated the signing off of the accounts), not homfc, I can't see why BDO would, and it seems unlikely that any creditors will now.

There's a supervisory body set up by the accountancy institutions and associations - it used to be called the Joint Monitoring Unit (JMU), but I suspect it has another name now - I've been out of the game for a few years. Their job is broadly quality control and they will undoubtedly look at the audit of HoMFC. They will report any criminal activity to the SFO and they can effectively end the career of a member who has fallen below the required standards. For lesser offences they can fine or suspend members as they consider appropriate.

I always thought the billiard balls in a sock treatment was their most effective punishment though.

[clerriehibs]

There's a supervisory body set up by the accountancy institutions and associations - it used to be called the Joint Monitoring Unit (JMU), but I suspect it has another name now - I've been out of the game for a few years. Their job is broadly quality control and they will undoubtedly look at the audit of HoMFC. They will report any criminal activity to the SFO and they can effectively end the career of a member who has fallen below the required standards. For lesser offences they can fine or suspend members as they consider appropriate.

I always thought the billiard balls in a sock treatment was their most effective punishment though.

The homfc audit is unlikely to be on their radar though unless someone has raised it as an issue; I can't see who would raise it as an issue now.

[Just Alf]

The homfc audit is unlikely to be on their radar though unless someone has raised it as an issue; I can't see who would raise it as an issue now.

Alf thinks that our very own Sydney is VERY likely to have a letter already drafted and ready to go.

[The Green Goblin]

I always thought the billiard balls in a sock treatment was their most effective punishment though.

As long as they return the sock to whatever plukey first team player they borrowed it from afterwards, it shouldn't be a problem, and they'll all have a proper pair of socks to wear when HMFC kick off their next game in the Meadows or wherever...

[Caversham Green]

The homfc audit is unlikely to be on their radar though unless someone has raised it as an issue; I can't see who would raise it as an issue now.

I don't know how it works currently, but they used to visit my firm every year and pick files at random to inspect paying particular attention to public interest clients. HoMFC's accounts being late every year will already have been on their radar and them going bust a few weeks after the audit report was signed off will undoubtedly have got their attention, it doesn't need any sort of complaint from anyone. I'd be very surprised if they didn't look at the file.

[sidneyhibbie]

I don't know how it works currently, but they used to visit my firm every year and pick files at random to inspect paying particular attention to public interest clients. HoMFC's accounts being late every year will already have been on their radar and them going bust a few weeks after the audit report was signed off will undoubtedly have got their attention, it doesn't need any sort of complaint from anyone. I'd be very surprised if they didn't look at the file.

A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts. :aok:

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't know how it works currently, but they used to visit my firm every year and pick files at random to inspect paying particular attention to public interest clients. HoMFC's accounts being late every year will already have been on their radar and them going bust a few weeks after the audit report was signed off will undoubtedly have got their attention, it doesn't need any sort of complaint from anyone. I'd be very surprised if they didn't look at the file.

It is still the JMU, Cav. And the results of disciplinary proceedings are published. There was one only this week.

[The Green Goblin]

A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts. :aok:

:top marks

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts. :aok:

Your dedication to calligraphy is to be admired Sidney.

[brog]

A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts. :aok:

Sidney is now brog's fav poster - - fact!

[Phil D. Rolls]

A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts. :aok:

Filled Rolls wonder if the Ballon Bursts is a 1960s French film, with Jacques Tati or maybe Johnny Halliday in it.

[SloopJB]

Your dedication to calligraphy is to be admired Sidney.
In time there will be enough letters to form a word.

[Part/Time Supporter]

In time there will be enough letters to form a word.

If Sidney keeps writing letters at this rate the Royal Mail privatisation might go well.

[clerriehibs]

A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts. :aok:

Sidney, if you're maintaining a wish list;

A freedom of info request to the council asking how much council tax is due.
A FoI to the council asking when the wongadome is due its next inspection.
A FoI to the council asking if there were any caveats/endorsements on the last safety certificate.
A FoI to the police asking how much is due by the laughably self proclaimed 'big' team and whether any policing will be carried out at future tynecastle games without a guarantee of payment.

Keep up the very good work!

[Treadstone]

I can see it in a couple of years time after a high profile criminal fraud case. The chief constable and procurator fiscal standing outside the high court "we are pleased to have secured the lengthy custodial sentences meted out and thank the member of the public who alerted us by way of written correspondence..."

Gaun yersel Sidney.

[Dashing Bob S]

Big week ahead for BDO, Los Yambolinos and, the footballing bodies in Scotland. As Phil Oakey of the Human League memorably sang: 'decisions to made, whey-hey-hey-hey...'

[O'Rourke3]

Filled Rolls wonder if the Ballon Bursts is a 1960s French film, with Jacques Tati or maybe Johnny Halliday in it.
:faf:

[sidneyhibbie]

Sidney, if you're maintaining a wish list;

A freedom of info request to the council asking how much council tax is due.
A FoI to the council asking when the wongadome is due its next inspection.
A FoI to the council asking if there were any caveats/endorsements on the last safety certificate.
A FoI to the police asking how much is due by the laughably self proclaimed 'big' team and whether any policing will be carried out at future tynecastle games without a guarantee of payment.

Keep up the very good work!

Ill get the pen and paper out again after my Tea some good ideas you mention.

[GlenrothesHibee]

Can Hearts add the Open championship to their World War victories now? -15 is some score

[Sanger]

Big week ahead for BDO, Los Yambolinos and, the footballing bodies in Scotland. As Phil Oakey of the Human League memorably sang: 'decisions to made, whey-hey-hey-hey...'

Yes Wednesday/Thursday/Friday are D days. Expect some pretty dramatic announcements from BDO and SPFL this week along these lines : " it is with great regret but there is no alternative but to move to liquidation/remove HMFC from SPFL".
:flag:

[Saorsa]

Yes Wednesday/Thursday/Friday are D days. Expect some pretty dramatic announcements from BDO and SPFL this week along these lines : " it is with great regret but there is no alternative but to move to liquidation/remove HMFC from SPFL".
:flag::pray:

I dinnae think I'll ever stop laughing :faf: if that announcement is made, in fact I think I'll laugh so hard my heid might fall off. :agree:

[nonshinyfinish]

Yes Wednesday/Thursday/Friday are D days. Expect some pretty dramatic announcements from BDO and SPFL this week along these lines : " it is with great regret but there is no alternative but to move to liquidation/remove HMFC from SPFL".
:flag:

Big prediction.

[Steve20]

Yes Wednesday/Thursday/Friday are D days. Expect some pretty dramatic announcements from BDO and SPFL this week along these lines : " it is with great regret but there is no alternative but to move to liquidation/remove HMFC from SPFL".
:flag:

That's not happening anytime soon. They've already said they've enough money until the end of the year.

[CallumLaidlaw]

Yes Wednesday/Thursday/Friday are D days. Expect some pretty dramatic announcements from BDO and SPFL this week along these lines : " it is with great regret but there is no alternative but to move to liquidation/remove HMFC from SPFL".
:flag:

Friday morning after the Hibees have performed the great escape against Malmo and are working out the finer details of a trip to Swansea, would be just perfect timing.

[Dunderhall]

Unless any bidders own up, I'd have thought BDO will have to wait until the week deadline, issued on the 19th to prove their funding, has passed.

[greenginger]

That's not happening anytime soon. They've already said they've enough money until the end of the year.

If the offers received are less than the secured creditor will accept, and there is no sign of an increased offer from anywhere , there would be no point in continuing the admin. process. That would only cost the creditors money and serve no purpose.

If there is no new offer next week the ............... call in the Liquidator ! :greengrin

[sidneyhibbie]

Yes Wednesday/Thursday/Friday are D days. Expect some pretty dramatic announcements from BDO and SPFL this week along these lines : " it is with great regret but there is no alternative but to move to liquidation/remove HMFC from SPFL".
:flag:

Sidney likes this post :flag:

[Zazu62]

Yes Wednesday/Thursday/Friday are D days. Expect some pretty dramatic announcements from BDO and SPFL this week along these lines : " it is with great regret but there is no alternative but to move to liquidation/remove HMFC from SPFL".
:flag:

This please

[Northernhibee]

That's not happening anytime soon. They've already said they've enough money until the end of the year.

They also said that they were self sufficient and that they'd win the Champions League.

[Treadstone]

Unless any bidders own up, I'd have thought BDO will have to wait until the week deadline, issued on the 19th to prove their funding, has passed.

How long does it take to count nectar points ? :faf:

[Mr White]

They also said that they were self sufficient and that they'd win the Champions League.

Aye well, everyone makes mistakes from time to time, they do have the best young players in Britain though, that is beyond doubt.

[Ozyhibby]

Big week ahead for BDO, Los Yambolinos and, the footballing bodies in Scotland. As Phil Oakey of the Human League memorably sang: 'decisions to made, whey-hey-hey-hey...'

Just as I was reading that the song came on Real Radio. It's a sign I tell you.

[clerriehibs]

That's not happening anytime soon. They've already said they've enough money until the end of the year.

I'd like to think funding till the end of the year isn't good enough for the spfl, who surely would like a commitment to complete the season.

[Hank Schrader]

That's not happening anytime soon. They've already said they've enough money until the end of the year.

The season doesn't finish at the end of the year.

[YehButNoBut]

Hearts have rejected Forest bid of £150k for Holt as they believe they can get £10 million in the future. :no way: :lolyam:

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/5027373/Holt-tight-for-10m.html

CALLUM PATERSON believes Hearts were right to boot out Nottingham Forest’s cheeky £150,000 bid for playmaker Jason Holt — because he could soon be worth £10million.

Forest slapped in their third offer for Scotland Under-21 starlet on Friday as they look to take advantage of the Jambos’ plunge into administration.

Manager Gary Locke dismissed it as “ridiculous” and 18-year-old converted striker Paterson agrees.

In his first interview, he said: “Of course we all want Jason to stay. He is a talisman for us. He’s just one of the lads but also an unbelievable talent.

“If he keeps going the way he is, he could be a £10m player in five years.”

[hfc rd]

Hearts have rejected Forest bid of £150k for Holt as they believe they can get £10 million in the future. :no way: :lolyam:

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/5027373/Holt-tight-for-10m.html

CALLUM PATERSON believes Hearts were right to boot out Nottingham Forest’s cheeky £150,000 bid for playmaker Jason Holt — because he could soon be worth £10million.

Forest slapped in their third offer for Scotland Under-21 starlet on Friday as they look to take advantage of the Jambos’ plunge into administration.

Manager Gary Locke dismissed it as “ridiculous” and 18-year-old converted striker Paterson agrees.

In his first interview, he said: “Of course we all want Jason to stay. He is a talisman for us. He’s just one of the lads but also an unbelievable talent.

“If he keeps going the way he is, he could be a £10m player in five years.”



It's things like that, that make them the most idiotic club in the world. I remember when they once said that another certain fud David Templeton was worth £15M!

[#FromTheCapital]

Hearts have rejected Forest bid of £150k for Holt as they believe they can get £10 million in the future. :no way: :lolyam:

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/5027373/Holt-tight-for-10m.html

CALLUM PATERSON believes Hearts were right to boot out Nottingham Forest’s cheeky £150,000 bid for playmaker Jason Holt — because he could soon be worth £10million.

Forest slapped in their third offer for Scotland Under-21 starlet on Friday as they look to take advantage of the Jambos’ plunge into administration.

Manager Gary Locke dismissed it as “ridiculous” and 18-year-old converted striker Paterson agrees.

In his first interview, he said: “Of course we all want Jason to stay. He is a talisman for us. He’s just one of the lads but also an unbelievable talent.

“If he keeps going the way he is, he could be a £10m player in five years.”

10m!?!? :faf::faf::faf:

Callum Paterson go and punch yourself in the face

[Geo_1875]

10m!?!? :faf::faf::faf:

Callum Paterson go and punch yourself in the face

And if you need any help just give me a shout.

He gives stupid a bad name.

[Albanian Hibs]

Hearts have rejected Forest bid of £150k for Holt as they believe they can get £10 million in the future. :no way: :lolyam:

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/5027373/Holt-tight-for-10m.html

CALLUM PATERSON believes Hearts were right to boot out Nottingham Forest’s cheeky £150,000 bid for playmaker Jason Holt — because he could soon be worth £10million.

Forest slapped in their third offer for Scotland Under-21 starlet on Friday as they look to take advantage of the Jambos’ plunge into administration.

Manager Gary Locke dismissed it as “ridiculous” and 18-year-old converted striker Paterson agrees.

In his first interview, he said: “Of course we all want Jason to stay. He is a talisman for us. He’s just one of the lads but also an unbelievable talent.

“If he keeps going the way he is, he could be a £10m player in five years.”

What an embarrassment

[hibees 7062]

10m!?!? :faf::faf::faf:

Callum Paterson go and punch yourself in the face

Looks like hes been doing that for yearshttp://d.yimg.com/i/ng/sp/empics/20120830/22/4235919413-30082012223034-s.jpg

[Heisenberg]

I seriously could say I've not noticed the boy in any of the derbies this season? Has he played in them? Or he still trying to get out of Claros' back pocket :jmcp:

[gegs70]

Why dont they sell him with a sell on claus? Uf he sells for 10million they get 20%? Wont happen but they may get a wee bit more with the EPLs inflated prices.

[CropleyWasGod]

Why dont they sell him with a sell on claus? Uf he sells for 10million they get 20%? Wont happen but they may get a wee bit more with the EPLs inflated prices.

They wouldn't get anything if they go down the NewCo route.

[21.05.2016]

Holt worth £10m????!!!! :faf::faf::faf::faf:



That just about sums up the delusion of those morons!


It's things like that, that make them the most idiotic club in the world. I remember when they once said that another certain fud David Templeton was worth £15M!

Correct. The most laughable, cringeworthy joke of a club. Never heard so much delusion and utter garbage come out of a club! Deluded from the board room right down to their shower of morons who support them.

[blackpoolhibs]

FFS if they get £10m for Holt, this could be enough to get them out of trouble once and for all.

They could be debt free within weeks. :boo hoo:

[Spike Mandela]

Be interesting if Holt put in a transfer request.:cb

[The Falcon]

FFS if they get £10m for Holt, this could be enough to get them out of trouble once and for all.

They could be debt free within weeks. :boo hoo:

That's only half an Andy Driver is it not? And how much did he eventually move on for?

[Waxy]

And if Holts worth 10M whats the rest of the squad worth? Must be around 50M at least.

[Mr White]

Holts worth double the value of the land at tynecastle- FACT.

[clerriehibs]

Hearts have rejected Forest bid of £150k for Holt as they believe they can get £10 million in the future. :no way: :lolyam:

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/5027373/Holt-tight-for-10m.html

CALLUM PATERSON believes Hearts were right to boot out Nottingham Forest’s cheeky £150,000 bid for playmaker Jason Holt — because he could soon be worth £10million.

Forest slapped in their third offer for Scotland Under-21 starlet on Friday as they look to take advantage of the Jambos’ plunge into administration.

Manager Gary Locke dismissed it as “ridiculous” and 18-year-old converted striker Paterson agrees.

In his first interview, he said: “Of course we all want Jason to stay. He is a talisman for us. He’s just one of the lads but also an unbelievable talent.

“If he keeps going the way he is, he could be a £10m player in five years.”

Ach, this admin nonsense confuses me. Aren't the admin guys meant to realise the best they can for the existing creditors? So if someone is bidding for a player, ie wants him, do they not need to accept a bid within a relatively short negotiation period? It's an irrelevance as to what he might be worth to homfc in 10 yrs becauae, if someone is willing to buy now, they surely have to sell before coming out of admin if it's the CVA route and not liquidation?

[CropleyWasGod]

Ach, this admin nonsense confuses me. Aren't the admon guys meant to realise the beat they can for the existing creditors? So if someone is bidding for a player, ie wants him, do they not need to accept a bid within a relatively short negotiation period? It's an irrelevance as to what he might be worth to homfc in 10 yrs becauae, if someone is willing to buy now, they surely have to sell before coming out of admin if it's the CVA route and not liquidation?

That's only one of their duties. They also have to try and preserve the company as a going concern. They can only do that, in the Yams case, if there's something (ie the business of a football club) to sell. Selling one of their better players might dissuade a buyer, and it might also reduce their ability to trade post-administration.

So there's a tension there between their duties, which is not an easy one to reconcile.

[Spike Mandela]

If I were at Notts Forest and we really wanted Jason Holt I would tell the administrators at Hearts that from now on every week that goes by £10k comes off the offered fee,:cb

[Dashing Bob S]

Correct. The most laughable, cringeworthy joke of a club. Never heard so much delusion and utter garbage come out of a club! Deluded from the board room right down to their shower of morons who support them.

Be fair - the 25 mill for Andy Driver was spot on...oh wait, that was a free transfer.

[Makaveli]

No player is bigger than the club.

Except Holt, who is apparently worth twice as much. :jamboclow

[s.a.m]

No player is bigger than the club.

Except Holt, who is apparently worth twice as much. :jamboclow

John Robertson is bigger than the club. Would probably give some of the smaller planets a run for their money as well.

[Waxy]

Like uranus?

[Onion]

Holt worth £10m????!!!! :faf::faf::faf::faf:



That just about sums up the delusion of those morons!

I hope the Lith creditors are taking note of this when they come to consider the £2M that FOH have offered for the whole club including Tynecastle and all the playing staff. Clearly no one has told the FOH about this £10M asset :greengrin

[Onion]

If I were at Notts Forest and we really wanted Jason Holt I would tell the administrators at Hearts that from now on every week that goes by £10k comes off the offered fee,:cb

:agree: in a few weeks time when they run out of cash, Holt will be able to walk away for nothing. These idiots are Hearts need to take a reality check - completely bonkers.

[Keith_M]

As it stands, there is no way for Hearts to replace players, so they could start the season with a squad too small to make it through to Christmas, once injuries/suspensions kick in.

If BDO want to sell the club as a going concern, they need to have a minimum number of players and also something people want to buy (i.e. NOT a squad of U19s). From that point of view, it makes sense.

[Ozyhibby]

It also means they are unlikely to liquidate this week or they would be taking the cash now rather than let him become a free agent on liquidation.

[Geo_1875]

That's only one of their duties. They also have to try and preserve the company as a going concern. They can only do that, in the Yams case, if there's something (ie the business of a football club) to sell. Selling one of their better players might dissuade a buyer, and it might also reduce their ability to trade post-administration.

So there's a tension there between their duties, which is not an easy one to reconcile.

I could see there being tension between these duties if they were a "large" employer in the area and 100s of employees would be dumped on the dole. The football and professional staff would find jobs at the appropriate level and if this was considerably below their current "status" then that's just tough because it happens at the end of every season to hundreds of players. Unfortunately, the office and support staff would lose their jobs but not in sufficient numbers that BDO should go out of their way to favour the going concern over the concerns of creditors. The goodwill of the fans should be their last concern as the money they spend would not be lost to the local economy (except what would be spent in Glasgow).

And think of the pleasure their ceasing to be would give untold numbers now and in the future.

[CropleyWasGod]

I could see there being tension between these duties if they were a "large" employer in the area and 100s of employees would be dumped on the dole. The football and professional staff would find jobs at the appropriate level and if this was considerably below their current "status" then that's just tough because it happens at the end of every season to hundreds of players. Unfortunately, the office and support staff would lose their jobs but not in sufficient numbers that BDO should go out of their way to favour the going concern over the concerns of creditors. The goodwill of the fans should be their last concern as the money they spend would not be lost to the local economy (except what would be spent in Glasgow).

And think of the pleasure their ceasing to be would give untold numbers now and in the future.

Think you're missing my point. It's not about the goodwill of the fans, and neither is it about keeping the staff in jobs.

The value of this business to a buyer is in its ability to compete on the park. That means retaining as much of it as is possible, to maximise the chances of selling it. Of course, you have to balance that with the costs of maintaining it, as well as the duties to creditors.

D&P took the same approach with Rangers, and Bryan Jackson (IIRC) took a different view at Motherwell. Both different situations from each other, and both different from Hearts. Each was (arguably) appropriate in its own context.

[Geo_1875]

Think you're missing my point. It's not about the goodwill of the fans, and neither is it about keeping the staff in jobs.

The value of this business to a buyer is in its ability to compete on the park. That means retaining as much of it as is possible, to maximise the chances of selling it. Of course, you have to balance that with the costs of maintaining it, as well as the duties to creditors.

D&P took the same approach with Rangers, and Bryan Jackson (IIRC) took a different view at Motherwell. Both different situations from each other, and both different from Hearts. Each was (arguably) appropriate in its own context.

But surely his "priority" should only be to maintain, or sell a going concern, not to create one.

[CropleyWasGod]

But surely his "priority" should only be to maintain, or sell a going concern, not to create one.

Not sure I'm getting you.

One of his duties is " Rescuing the company as a going concern".

To do that, he has to transform what wasn't a GC to one, and he does that through the CVA. In other words, sheds debt to leave a manageable company.

So he does, in effect, "create" it.

[Bostonhibby]

Hearts have rejected Forest bid of £150k for Holt as they believe they can get £10 million in the future. :no way: :lolyam:

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/5027373/Holt-tight-for-10m.html

CALLUM PATERSON believes Hearts were right to boot out Nottingham Forest’s cheeky £150,000 bid for playmaker Jason Holt — because he could soon be worth £10million.

Forest slapped in their third offer for Scotland Under-21 starlet on Friday as they look to take advantage of the Jambos’ plunge into administration.

Manager Gary Locke dismissed it as “ridiculous” and 18-year-old converted striker Paterson agrees.

In his first interview, he said: “Of course we all want Jason to stay. He is a talisman for us. He’s just one of the lads but also an unbelievable talent.

“If he keeps going the way he is, he could be a £10m player in five years.”

Ludicrous he's never worth twice as much as Andy Driver.......... Oh wait a minute. Will theY never learn.

[Mac]

It also means they are unlikely to liquidate this week or they would be taking the cash now rather than let him become a free agent on liquidation.

Doesnt make any difference if they are liquidated anyway, they will try and keep it together as an attractive asset to a buyer until the very last second, £100k or £150k makes no difference to the plight they are in, WHEN they are liquidated the liquidator will still sell the assets and there will be more than 1 club willing to stump up the same fee for him.

[greenginger]

Doesnt make any difference if they are liquidated anyway, they will try and keep it together as an attractive asset to a buyer until the very last second, £100k or £150k makes no difference to the plight they are in, WHEN they are liquidated the liquidator will still sell the assets and there will be more than 1 club willing to stump up the same fee for him.

If they are liquidated players contracts become void and the players can walk for nowt as happened with a few Deadco players last summer.

[Geo_1875]

Not sure I'm getting you.

One of his duties is " Rescuing the company as a going concern".

To do that, he has to transform what wasn't a GC to one, and he does that through the CVA. In other words, sheds debt to leave a manageable company.

So he does, in effect, "create" it.

I know where you are coming from but what appears to be happening is that they are inviting lowball bids from nutters who don't want to put much into a CVA. Surely they should be looking to get as much as possible for the CVA and it's then up to the new owners to keep their shiny new going concern going.

[Dashing Bob S]

I know where you are coming from but what appears to be happening is that they are inviting lowball bids from nutters who don't want to put much into a CVA. Surely they should be looking to get as much as possible for the CVA and it's then up to the new owners to keep their shiny new going concern going.

They have little choice in the matter. Highball bids from the intelligent are likely to be thin on the ground. They owe big bucks to the taxman, and to their creditors, who are their parent companies, who are embroiled in legal proceedings and criminal investigations, with their assets currently frozen. Those assets are primarily a piece of land in a shabby inner-city district, which, if cashed in, would leave the club homeless and starting at the bottom of the football structure in this country, a fate they in any case seem unlikely to avoid.

[greenginger]

The Yams are outraged that they may be bought by a thief.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/hearts-bidder-angelo-massone-is-a-thief-1-3008940

Their biggest concern is he might steal from them, whereas stealing from others to fund their own overspending is the approved Jambo way to do things.

[clerriehibs]

The Yams are outraged that they may be bought by a thief.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/hearts-bidder-angelo-massone-is-a-thief-1-3008940

Their biggest concern is he might steal from them, whereas stealing from others to fund their own overspending is the approved Jambo way to do things.

steal what, exactly, from them? Their ex-Mcdonalds begging cup??

[whiskyhibby]

John Robertson is bigger than the club. Would probably give some of the smaller planets a run for their money as well.

:-))))

[McLeod1875]

The most laughable, cringeworthy joke of a club. Never heard so much delusion and utter garbage come out of a club! Deluded from the board room right down to their shower of morons who support them.

Couldn't agree more. Embarrassment of a club!

[CropleyWasGod]

I know where you are coming from but what appears to be happening is that they are inviting lowball bids from nutters who don't want to put much into a CVA. Surely they should be looking to get as much as possible for the CVA and it's then up to the new owners to keep their shiny new going concern going.

... and that's what they're doing.

[greenginger]

Ignoring Massone's previous indiscretions in football matters, surely his £ 4 million bid for the CVA and Nil working capital is a more attractive offer than Club 9.

£ 1.8 million for a CVA and £ 3.2 million for working capital ( Buying the club by giving money to themselves is a new slant on Yamonomics )

If Massone wants to fund the club by covering new bank borrowing for them, or by simply reducing expenditure and cancelling season tickets, that should not be a factor in choosing a preferred bidder.

Or, am I missing something ?

[Deansy]

“If he keeps going the way he is, he could be a £10m player in five years.” - And so Callum Patterson's statement joins the list of the many, numerous, legendary one-liners for which they will always be so fondly remembered -

"European-Champions-League-Winners within 5 years"

“We can win the title.”

"Hearts want to redevelop Tynecastle into a top-class European stadium"

"The fans are the golden fans for the country. I appreciate them much more than all the oil and gas reserves of Russia."


"I would like to assure them (the fans) that we will have a top-class manager in place as soon as possible," - with Claudio Ranieri, Sir Bobby Robson,Kevin Keegan, Ottmar Hitzfeld , Nevio Scala etc. all being linked but all beaten to the much-coveted post by the legendary Graham Rix !!


So many happy memories the yams will bring in the years to come, when trying to explain in the year 2113 to the grand-kids of Edinburgh (ALL STAUNCH HIBEES !) what and exactly who the 'Maroon-Muppets' were and why, even now - "Granny and Grand-dad still p*sh themselves laughing when they talk about them" !!

[ScottB]

Ignoring Massone's previous indiscretions in football matters, surely his £ 4 million bid for the CVA and Nil working capital is a more attractive offer than Club 9.

£ 1.8 million for a CVA and £ 3.2 million for working capital ( Buying the club by giving money to themselves is a new slant on Yamonomics )

If Massone wants to fund the club by covering new bank borrowing for them, or by simply reducing expenditure and cancelling season tickets, that should not be a factor in choosing a preferred bidder.

Or, am I missing something ?

Is the point that they have to be sure that the business exiting administration is stable? I think in a liquidation they wouldn't be required to give a toss about who was buying what, but when trying to keep it as a going concern they have to be sure the new owners will be able to keep it going?

[AndyB_70]

So many happy memories the yams will bring in the years to come, when trying to explain in the year 2113 to the grand-kids of Edinburgh (ALL STAUNCH HIBEES !) what and exactly who the 'Maroon-Muppets' were and why, even now - "Granny and Grand-dad still p*sh themselves laughing when they talk about them" !!

Medical science must have moved on some in 2113 for someone who has even the slightest memory of that mob still being alive as we will all have drunk ourselves into a medical coma hours after they go pop. Oh a medical coma might be the answer for it to be true.

[greenginger]

Is the point that they have to be sure that the business exiting administration is stable? I think in a liquidation they wouldn't be required to give a toss about who was buying what, but when trying to keep it as a going concern they have to be sure the new owners will be able to keep it going?

And relying a bunch of muppets not to cancel their standing orders is a pillar of stability in the FoH offer ? :greengrin

[Springbank]

And relying a bunch of muppets not to cancel their standing orders is a pillar of stability in the FoH offer ? :greengrin

Are Hearts fans loyal when results go poorly?
To put it one way, hearts began the 85/86 season poorly and finished it strongly (until the final ten mins or thereabouts)

The crowds in their games v Dundee that season tell you this...

They took 8000 to dens in may 1986
They had a crowd of 7900 at tynecastle in autumn 1985

They will disappear like snow off a formidable lady when results go wrong

[weecounty hibby]

Are Hearts fans loyal when results go poorly?
To put it one way, hearts began the 85/86 season poorly and finished it strongly (until the final ten mins or thereabouts)

The crowds in their games v Dundee that season tell you this...

They took 8000 to dens in may 1986
They had a crowd of 7900 at tynecastle in autumn 1985

They will disappear like snow off a formidable lady when results go wrong
That can't be right:confused:. They sell out every game, all the time. Even when they're not playing Tynecastle is sold out just to watch the groundsman cutting the grass. Or as it is now some random punter who has volunteered to cut the grass. Or to watch someone painting the steps even.

[CropleyWasGod]

Ignoring Massone's previous indiscretions in football matters, surely his £ 4 million bid for the CVA and Nil working capital is a more attractive offer than Club 9.

£ 1.8 million for a CVA and £ 3.2 million for working capital ( Buying the club by giving money to themselves is a new slant on Yamonomics )

If Massone wants to fund the club by covering new bank borrowing for them, or by simply reducing expenditure and cancelling season tickets, that should not be a factor in choosing a preferred bidder.

Or, am I missing something ?

BDO do have to have an eye on how the business is to be funded post-administration. If, in their opinion, there is little chance of it being adequately funded, they might take the view that they would be as well liquidating.

I reckon that part of their "proof of funding" work will be to establish just how Massone intends to fund the business. If he can satisfy them that he has reasonable plans (for example, not honouring ST's :greengrin) then he might just get the nod.

[LongshanksED]

Any idea of when BDO are gonna announce the preferred bidder or that lack of reasonable bids means liquidation and/or a firesale?

[Dunderhall]

Any idea of when BDO are gonna announce the preferred bidder or that lack of reasonable bids means liquidation and/or a firesale?
They announced last Friday a week's deadline for bids to show proof of funding.
That may narrow down the bids so they enter further discussions only with those who have some potential, assuming the potential is there.

[sidneyhibbie]

Sidney has contacts who have told me that Massone has failed fit and proper person test he was told to get others to front his bid but wanted to be billy big baws so he is out, The shoe salesmans backers are out :na na: all that leaves is the foh who need to have a meeting to decide when the next meeting will be.:greengrin

Because of this BDO Are out:cb

its the BIG L Boys:not worth

Sidney.

[Cabbage East]

Sidney.

[Hibbyradge]

Sidney has contacts who have told me that Massone has failed fit and proper person test he was told to get others to front his bid but wanted to be billy big baws so he is out, The shoe salesmans backers are out :na na: all that leaves is the foh who need to have a meeting to decide when the next meeting will be.:greengrin

Because of this BDO Are out:cb

its the BIG L Boys:not worth

Sidney.

Sid

Put down the Stella, leave the DMT alone and head to bed.

You'll thank me in the morning

[BigKev]

Sidney has contacts who have told me that Massone has failed fit and proper person test he was told to get others to front his bid but wanted to be billy big baws so he is out, The shoe salesmans backers are out :na na: all that leaves is the foh who need to have a meeting to decide when the next meeting will be.:greengrin

Because of this BDO Are out:cb

its the BIG L Boys:not worth

Sidney.

BigKev loves Sidney's posts!

However I'd follow Hibbyradge's advice tonight if I were him.

[The Green Goblin]

Sidney.

:faf:

[Diclonius]

Are Hearts fans loyal when results go poorly?
To put it one way, hearts began the 85/86 season poorly and finished it strongly (until the final ten mins or thereabouts)

The crowds in their games v Dundee that season tell you this...

They took 8000 to dens in may 1986
They had a crowd of 7900 at tynecastle in autumn 1985

They will disappear like snow off a formidable lady when results go wrong

They'll account non-attending ST holders in their attendances this season to perpetuate the myth. They always do.

[Geo_1875]

11,000 ST holders bumped, 7,000 walk-ups = 18,000 attendance although their capacity is a lot less

[Hibs07p]

Any idea of when BDO are gonna announce the preferred bidder or that lack of reasonable bids means liquidation and/or a firesale?

Proof of funding to be in BDO's possession by tomorrow.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/hearts-suitors-asked-for-proof-of-funding-1-3010061

[Leishy1995]

11,000 ST holders bumped, 7,000 walk-ups = 18,000 attendance although their capacity is a lot less

Might want to factor in the 400,000 hearts fans who live just in Gorgie that will pay to stand outside the stadium.

[Caversham Green]

BDO do have to have an eye on how the business is to be funded post-administration. If, in their opinion, there is little chance of it being adequately funded, they might take the view that they would be as well liquidating.

I reckon that part of their "proof of funding" work will be to establish just how Massone intends to fund the business. If he can satisfy them that he has reasonable plans (for example, not honouring ST's :greengrin) then he might just get the nod.

I'm thinking Massone's plan might be to sell the club sans Tynie to FoH and let it out short term until they can build a new bellenddrome after which he will develop the land. Of course he might just chuck them out after a couple of years whether or not they've got a new home.

He doesn't need working capital for that and the fit and proper person thing wouldn't apply.

[clerriehibs]

Proof of funding to be in BDO's possession by tomorrow.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/hearts-suitors-asked-for-proof-of-funding-1-3010061

What a slow-witted tosser that dave anderson is. Just has to be a relative of banderson. That toilet paper "report" that Edinburgh council paid something like £35k for and stank of "homfc supporter" was all part of his pathetic scheming, and now, having been 'encouraged' out of his council job, he has the time to associate with another ropey geezer. Surprised he's not in the massone camp to tell the truth.

[Treadstone]

Mon the Massone.
I can already see a Swynie car park hullabaloo with medals Mackay going bomberesque "Wherz ra deeds?" And "Let's starve him oot"
:faf:

[Ozyhibby]

You would think that proof of funding should be included with the original bid so that all this faffing about could be avoided.

[LeithSqualk]

Mon the Massone.
I can already see a Swynie car park hullabaloo with medals Mackay going bomberesque "Wherz ra deeds?" And "Let's starve him oot"
:faf:

The pink hoose must be saved

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm thinking Massone's plan might be to sell the club sans Tynie to FoH and let it out short term until they can build a new bellenddrome after which he will develop the land. Of course he might just chuck them out after a couple of years whether or not they've got a new home.

He doesn't need working capital for that and the fit and proper person thing wouldn't apply.

Would that constitute a transfer of licence, a la Sevco?

[Caversham Green]

Would that constitute a transfer of licence, a la Sevco?

Possibly not. Massone buys the whole bunch, 'sells' the PBS to a new company and then passes the original company (the one that's only two years younger than Hibs and to all legal and logical intents is the football club) to FoH - for another fee of course.

[CropleyWasGod]

Possibly not. Massone buys the whole bunch, 'sells' the PBS to a new company and then passes the original company (the one that's only two years younger than Hibs and to all legal and logical intents is the football club) to FoH - for another fee of course.

Ok, I follow.

You want to delete this, lest anyone over there gets any ideas? :greengrin

[Caversham Green]

Ok, I follow.

You want to delete this, lest anyone over there gets any ideas? :greengrin

A fair point, but the arrangement would really just extend the comedy a bit longer. They all hate Massone - I believe FoH have spoken out against him, all of their 'pledges' would go to him by way of rent and then he'd chuck them out after a couple of years and they'd be in at least as bad a situation as they are now.

It's all good.

[Moulin Yarns]

Caversham and Cropley, what a double act, the new Morecambe and Wise :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

A fair point, but the arrangement would really just extend the comedy a bit longer. They all hate Massone - I believe FoH have spoken out against him, all of their 'pledges' would go to him by way of rent and then he'd chuck them out after a couple of years and they'd be in at least as bad a situation as they are now.

It's all good.

It's almost better.

Rock - give all your money to a guy you hate.

Hard place - don't give all your money to him. Club dies.

:not worth

[Spike Mandela]

Proof of funding to be in BDO's possession by tomorrow.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/hearts-suitors-asked-for-proof-of-funding-1-3010061

So, what timescale between proof of funding and naming of preferred bidder? Thursday or Friday perhaps?

[CropleyWasGod]

So, what timescale between proof of funding and naming of preferred bidder? Thursday or Friday perhaps?

Wouldn't expect it that soon, TBH. BDO will have to do their own work on the "proof".

[Spike Mandela]

Wouldn't expect it that soon, TBH. BDO will have to do their own work on the "proof".

Thought it might be as simple as statement from bank account(s) then a phonecall to said bank. Still I suppose BDO need to earn their £500 a minute fee.:wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

Thought it might be as simple as statement from bank account(s) then a phonecall to said bank. Still I suppose BDO need to earn their £500 a minute fee.:wink:

... that's straight out of the David Murray book of Due Diligence.:greengrin

[Spike Mandela]

... that's straight out of the David Murray book of Due Diligence.:greengrin

:greengrin


Thought due diligence Came after preferred bidder was announced.

[07hibee]

11,000 ST holders bumped, 7,000 walk-ups = 18,000 attendance although their capacity is a lot less

Any idea why they do that ?is it something financial,or just to big themselves up?

[CropleyWasGod]

:greengrin


Thought due diligence Came after preferred bidder was announced.

It's a 2 way thing.

BDO have to examine the Proof of Funding, to satisfy themselves that it's reasonable etc etc.

Once the Preferred Bidder is identified, that bidder has to carry out their own DD work, to establish what exactly they are buying.

[Allant1981]

Im probably being really daft and have missed something when on my hols but has danny wilson signed for them, just been reading the paper on how he has been out injured but is hoping to be back playing soon

[CropleyWasGod]

Im probably being really daft and have missed something when on my hols but has danny wilson signed for them, just been reading the paper on how he has been out injured but is hoping to be back playing soon

Yes he has.

[greenginger]

It's a 2 way thing.

BDO have to examine the Proof of Funding, to satisfy themselves that it's reasonable etc etc.

Once the Preferred Bidder is identified, that bidder has to carry out their own DD work, to establish what exactly they are buying.


At what point does the Ukio Admin. get to say, " sorry folks, thats not enough ", or " I'm sure the Lith. tax payers will be delighted to receive a pittance for the £ 70 million fraud ".

[Allant1981]

Yes he has.

Again just being daft but how do they get to sign a player while in admin

[CropleyWasGod]

At what point does the Ukio Admin. get to say, " sorry folks, thats not enough ", or " I'm sure the Lith. tax payers will be delighted to receive a pittance for the £ 70 million fraud ".

They can probably say that at any time. They could even say it now.

Whilst the bidder is doing their due diligence work, BDO will be trying to negotiate a higher price from the bidder and a lower price from the seller. I have no idea how far apart they are, but it's probably a long way.

[Hibbyradge]

Again just being daft but how do they get to sign a player while in admin

How long were you on holiday for?

[CropleyWasGod]

Again just being daft but how do they get to sign a player while in admin

They found a way to get round the rules, which basically was about "extending" his registration rather than registering a new one.

[Allant1981]

How long were you on holiday for?

I really have no idea how i missed this!!


They found a way to get round the rules, which basically was about "extending" his registration rather than registering a new one.

Cheers, i must have been on a different planet the last wee while!!

[jacomo]

Proof of funding to be in BDO's possession by tomorrow.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/hearts-suitors-asked-for-proof-of-funding-1-3010061

From that article:


FoH have put forward £2 million for a Company Voluntary Agreement, with £3.75 million, through a monthly direct debit scheme, available for working capital.

Is that £3.75m for working capital for the first 12 months, or longer? Because if it's £3.75m a year, and they have 6,000 people signed up, each would be paying £625 a year, or just over £52 a month.

That seems very high to me.

[SurferRosa]

Again just being daft but how do they get to sign a player while in admin

`Coz the SFA said he`d been signed before the ban. He hadn`t though, as they`d prevented his registration. Came up with some guff about his loan lasting till 31st July.....instead of till after his final game like every other loan deal.

They then allowed Hearts to register him despite then being under a registration ban, IIRC.

"The SFA......where rules dont mean a thing".

[jacomo]

`Coz the SFA said he`d been signed before the ban. He hadn`t though, as they`d prevented his registration. Came up with some guff about his loan lasting till 31st July.....instead of till after his final game like every other loan deal.

They then allowed Hearts to register him despite then being under a registration ban, IIRC.

"The SFA......where our rules dont mean a thing".

Yes it was a total nonsense. I think the SFA said Hearts had simply extended his contract, which was rubbish. In fact, Wilson had a contract with Liverpool which expired at the end of June, and his new contract with Hearts had not started when the company went into admin.

I think they probably just wanted to placate the Yammish hordes - potential for ugly scenes if that lot get organised.

[Saorsa]

Yes it was a total nonsense. I think the SFA said Hearts had simply extended his contract, which was rubbish. In fact, Wilson had a contract with Liverpool which expired at the end of June, and his new contract with Hearts had not started when the company went into admin.

I think they probably just wanted to placate the Yammish hordes - potential for ugly scenes if that lot get organised.It'd be an ugly scene if there was just one of them :agree:

[Spike Mandela]

From that article:



Is that £3.75m for working capital for the first 12 months, or longer? Because if it's £3.75m a year, and they have 6,000 people signed up, each would be paying £625 a year, or just over £52 a month.

That seems very high to me.

It will be season ticket money plus a pledge over and above. Nice in theory.:wink:

[SurferRosa]

Yes it was a total nonsense. I think the SFA said Hearts had simply extended his contract, which was rubbish. In fact, Wilson had a contract with Liverpool which expired at the end of June, and his new contract with Hearts had not started when the company went into admin.

I think they probably just wanted to placate the Yammish hordes - potential for ugly scenes if that lot get organised.

Indeed. Under these new rules, we should have insisted that Leighs loan hadn`t expired after the cup final but lasted until the end of July and he could have played in the Malmo tie...:hmmm:

Given that loan deals now appear to last all through the summer....:greengrin

[Mr White]

Indeed. Under these new rules, we should have insisted that Leighs loan hadn`t expired after the cup final but lasted until the end of July and he could have played in the Malmo tie...:hmmm:

Given that loan deals now appear to last all through the summer....:greengrin
It was to do with registration with the sfa though, not his contract with Liverpool or the length of the loan agreement- it's a separate thing.

[nribs]

Do you pay VAT/Tax on a jambo pledge? It seems all the jambos reckon they have around 6k pledgers at roughly £20 giving them £1.4m per year. Surely not every penny in every pound can go into the Hearts coffers? ?

[jacomo]

It'd be an ugly scene if there was just one of them :agree:

:thumbsup:

[CropleyWasGod]

Do you pay VAT/Tax on a jambo pledge? It seems all the jambos reckon they have around 6k pledgers at roughly £20 giving them £1.4m per year. Surely not every penny in every pound can go into the Hearts coffers? ?

If it's a loan or a gift, then there is no VAT or Corporation Tax due.

[jacomo]

It will be season ticket money plus a pledge over and above. Nice in theory.:wink:

Oh ok. So in your bid you include money that the club has already brought in? "Buying it from themselves", perhaps?

[nribs]

If it's a loan or a gift, then there is no VAT or Corporation Tax due. Surely we have this all wrong then? Why are we selling season tickets when we could ask people to give us the price of a season ticket as a gift and as a way of a thank you we could allow them into see a football match?:cb

[Treadstone]

Do you pay VAT/Tax on a jambo pledge? It seems all the jambos reckon they have around 6k pledgers at roughly £20 giving them £1.4m per year. Surely not every penny in every pound can go into the Hearts coffers? ?

Every penny won't go into the Yams coffers. If successful with their bid they will have to pay back the individual(s) who ponied up the initial £2m. I'm assuming that interest will have to be paid too. The interest will likely be sky high (loan issued with no security against it and untried membership scheme). Wait till that sh*tnugget hits the pledgers.
All of the above conditional on their paltry effort of a bid being accepted.

[Hibee87]

From that article:



Is that £3.75m for working capital for the first 12 months, or longer? Because if it's £3.75m a year, and they have 6,000 people signed up, each would be paying £625 a year, or just over £52 a month.

That seems very high to me.

its over 3 years :faf: as is the other bif from the trogladyte

[GlasgowHibee]

First post so be nice, long time reader of the forum and in particular this thread.

I hope these ****ers rot in hell! :greengrin

[kdhibees1]

First post so be nice, long time reader of the forum and in particular this thread.

I hope these ****ers rot in hell! :greengrin
My sentiments exactly!!

[southsider]

My sentiments exactly!!

Welcome. Good first post

[Dashing Bob S]

The Yam cake bakes are an attempt to form an enterprise not only as profitable as Gregg's, but eventually drive them out of business. Thus the Jambos would be able to control the rumour market, destabilizing every rival club.

It's probably the mostt coherent and viable business strategy for rescuing them I've heard so far.

[clerriehibs]

First post so be nice, long time reader of the forum and in particular this thread.

I hope these ****ers rot in hell! :greengrin

ltyf

[Prof. Shaggy]

Oh ok. So in your bid you include money that the club has already brought in? "Buying it from themselves", perhaps?

Ah! The Craig Whyte method!

[Notahappyhibee]

I might be daft but whats happening about the 25 million debt ? if F O H are successful with bid do they still have debt over there heads ? And how does it work when the debt not in this country are the laws different ?

[CropleyWasGod]

I might be daft but whats happening about the 25 million debt ? if F O H are successful with bid do they still have debt over there heads ? And how does it work when the debt not in this country are the laws different ?

They won't have the Lith debt, but they will have debt due to whoever is putting up the purchase price.

[#FromTheCapital]

The Yam cake bakes are an attempt to form an enterprise not only as profitable as Gregg's, but eventually drive them out of business. Thus the Jambos would be able to control the rumour market, destabilizing every rival club.

It's probably the mostt coherent and viable business strategy for rescuing them I've heard so far.

:not worth:faf:

[Caversham Green]

If it's a loan or a gift, then there is no VAT or Corporation Tax due.

Hmmm.

If they call it a subscription and there are any benefits to be had then there would be VAT on it, although the variable amounts might suggest it was a gift.

If it became an integral part of their trading operations - which is what they're telling us it will be - then it would not be seen as a gift it would either be a subscription, where VAT would apply, or outside the scope, in which case they might find a proportion of their input recovery is restricted. In either case Corporation Tax would apply, but if they don't go down the Sevyam route they have so much losses to claim from previous years that no CT would be payable.

Unless Vlad used those losses against UBIG's tax through a group claim.

#notcutanddried

[AndyM_1875]

I might be daft but whats happening about the 25 million debt ? if F O H are successful with bid do they still have debt over there heads ? And how does it work when the debt not in this country are the laws different ?

Caversham and CWG feel free to jump in and correct me here but my understanding is this .......

The FOH bid is reliant on the Lithuanians agreeing to a CVA on the Debt of £25m and they also hold the Floating Charge over the stadium too for £6.8m.
As I've said earlier, unless someone comes along with at least £12-15 million in a briefcase, the club is going under and through the Newco route.

They need to cough up at least 5m for the stadium. Then there is an appropriate figure for the CVA on the 25m of debt to UKIO and UBIG.
Even if the £2m is offered to the Administrator for he Club minus the stadium which the Lithuanians keep probably to initially rent back to the whatever incarnation of Hearts is around and then redevelop as Housing, that's an offer of 8p in the pound which will be even less once the Administrators fees come in so you may be looking at Hearts offering to pay around 5p in the £1 for their debts.

None of this of course includes the necessary working capital to run the club (about £2m) as the income has already been spent trying to keep the patient alive. Smaller creditors like HMRC (owed £1m in future payments) will get absolutely nothing so the public purse gets humped.

Can you see that being arranged?
I sure as hell can't which is why I reckon it's into the Blender of liquidation and here's your pass to Division 3.

[Notahappyhibee]

Caversham and CWG feel free to jump in and correct me here but my understanding is this .......

The FOH bid is reliant on the Lithuanians agreeing to a CVA on the Debt of £25m and they also hold the Floating Charge over the stadium too for £6.8m.
As I've said earlier, unless someone comes along with at least £12-15 million in a briefcase, the club is going under and through the Newco route.

They need to cough up at least 5m for the stadium. Then there is an appropriate figure for the CVA on the 25m of debt to UKIO and UBIG.
Even if the £2m is offered to the Administrator for he Club minus the stadium which the Lithuanians keep probably to initially rent back to the whatever incarnation of Hearts is around and then redevelop as Housing, that's an offer of 8p in the pound which will be even less once the Administrators fees come in so you may be looking at Hearts offering to pay around 5p in the £1 for their debts.

None of this of course includes the necessary working capital to run the club (about £2m) as the income has already been spent trying to keep the patient alive. Smaller creditors like HMRC (owed £1m in future payments) will get absolutely nothing so the public purse gets absolutely humped.

Can you see that being arranged?
I sure as hell can't which is why I reckon it's into the Blender of liquidation and here's your pass to Division 3.

Cheers
I'd rather they go roll over in corner and die. The **** can go support Spartans for I care.

[CropleyWasGod]

Caversham and CWG feel free to jump in and correct me here but my understanding is this .......

The FOH bid is reliant on the Lithuanians agreeing to a CVA on the Debt of £25m and they also hold the Floating Charge over the stadium too for £6.8m.
As I've said earlier, unless someone comes along with at least £12-15 million in a briefcase, the club is going under and through the Newco route.

They need to cough up at least 5m for the stadium. Then there is an appropriate figure for the CVA on the 25m of debt to UKIO and UBIG.
Even if the £2m is offered to the Administrator for he Club minus the stadium which the Lithuanians keep probably to initially rent back to the whatever incarnation of Hearts is around and then redevelop as Housing, that's an offer of 8p in the pound which will be even less once the Administrators fees come in so you may be looking at Hearts offering to pay around 5p in the £1 for their debts.

None of this of course includes the necessary working capital to run the club (about £2m) as the income has already been spent trying to keep the patient alive. Smaller creditors like HMRC (owed £1m in future payments) will get absolutely nothing so the public purse gets absolutely humped.

Can you see that being arranged?
I sure as hell can't which is why I reckon it's into the Blender of liquidation and here's your pass to Division 3.

A few minor corrections.:greengrin

UKIO have a fixed charge on the stadium, plus (possibly) a floating charge on the rest of the assets. UBIG also, possibly, have a floating charge on the assets.

The money that FOH put into the deal is to buy the (majority of the) shares of HMFC. If they own those, they have control of the company which owns the stadium. It's not £5m for the stadium PLUS the CVA.

That money is for 2 things:- 1. to satisfy the secured creditor(s) and 2. to satisfy the unsecured creditors through the CVA. So, if they are bidding (say) £3m, they could divide it up £2m for (1) and £1m for (2).

[AndyM_1875]

A few minor corrections.:greengrin

UKIO have a fixed charge on the stadium, plus (possibly) a floating charge on the rest of the assets. UBIG also, possibly, have a floating charge on the assets.

The money that FOH put into the deal is to buy the (majority of the) shares of HMFC. If they own those, they have control of the company which owns the stadium. It's not £5m for the stadium PLUS the CVA.

That money is for 2 things:- 1. to satisfy the secured creditor(s) and 2. to satisfy the unsecured creditors through the CVA. So, if they are bidding (say) £3m, they could divide it up £2m for (1) and £1m for (2).

Thank you CWG.

That makes me think an agreed CVA is even more unlikely.

[greenginger]

http://www.insolvencynews.com/article/15461/corporate/hearts-administration-update

An article from Insolvency News ( top shelf mag. for some posters on here :greengrin )


Last paragraph is interesting.

" Ukio Bankas ........ will only accept an offer for the Club and stadium that meets its valuation of the Land. "

I wonder if the land valuation could be the £ 6,800,000 which the Bank has security for and the Liths have seen all this coming at the end of last year.

As for the £ 255.68 p thats maybe for their history !

[Dan Sarf]

On the BBC Sports page "Hearts in administration: Bidders asked for proof of funding" there are three links to "this story around the web." The first two links lead to the Scotsman and to the Herald. The third is to the Financial Times, headline: "Bidders line up for German bathroom fittings manufacturer Grohe". Sensing a sensational Teutonic toilet-financed takeover bid, I clicked on the link - only to discover it's for FT registered readers only. Can any of you FT-reading financial wizards enlighten us as to what the article says? Hope the jambos aren't in the sh*t or anything?

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.insolvencynews.com/article/15461/corporate/hearts-administration-update

An article from Insolvency News ( top shelf mag. for some posters on here :greengrin )


Last paragraph is interesting.

" Ukio Bankas ........ will only accept an offer for the Club and stadium that meets its valuation of the Land. "

I wonder if the land valuation could be the £ 6,800,000 which the Bank has security for and the Liths have seen all this coming at the end of last year.

As for the £ 255.68 p thats maybe for their history !

I'm guessing that's speculation, but they may know something. If there is any truth in it, MSM certainly won't have picked it up. The limit of their financial knowledge comes from hibs.net.

[DC_Hibs]

"Bidders line up for German bathroom fittings manufacturer Grohe". Can any of you FT-reading financial wizards enlighten us as to what the article says?

The link is that they're sinking fast, soon to be going down the pan, they are a shower of plug ugly bassas and they all sh@9 their cisterns.

Apart from that, #allisbarry

[jgl07]

The link is that they're sinking fast, soon to be going down the pan, they are a shower of plug ugly bassas and they all sh@9 their cisterns.

Apart from that, #allisbarry

Has Pat the Plumber made a late bid?

[Cabbage East]

The link is that they're sinking fast, soon to be going down the pan, they are a shower of plug ugly bassas and they all sh@9 their cisterns.

Apart from that, #allisbarry

What are you basin that on?

[ballengeich]

Has Pat the Plumber made a late bid?

Could be - Tynie's full of old boilers wanting a service.

[Prof. Shaggy]

Has Pat the Plumber made a late bid?

That should bring them out in hot flushes.:greengrin

[Keith_M]

...... MSM certainly won't have picked it up. The limit of their financial knowledge comes from hibs.net.



Sorry to be a dimwit but...what does MSM stand for?




:greengrin

[God Petrie]

Malmo singing mayhem

[Treadstone]

Sorry to be a dimwit but...what does MSM stand for?

:greengrin

Bit of a misnomer here, technically should be MM. Mainstream media.:wink: