Council Take Tram Contractors To Court

[Dashing Bob S]

Good thing too. I think official bodies tolerance of chronic overspends and late runs on capital projects in this country is far too high. I cite the Millenium Dome, Wembley, Scottish Parliament etc etc, and the Olympic Stadium looks like another one. In fact, the only one that seems to have come in on budget and on time is Cardiff's Millenium Stadium.

People expect some slippage and contingencies in complex projects of this scale, but architecture and building companies seem to put in deliberately low tenders to win the contracts, then think they can ramp it up and have license to exploit the pubic purse once they have their foot in the door.

Well done to the council for taking a stand against this.

[J-C]

The good thing about the tram contract is it's a set price and non negotiable, the company tried unsuccessfully to get more money out of the council, and they were told were to go. It's good to see a council standing up to these money grabbing companies and not giving in to them.

[Phil D. Rolls]

As someone who supported the tram project, I have to confess the whole thing is starting to make me cringe. We are going to end up with a toy system that will be the equivalent of taking a ride along Blackpool pier.

I apologise to the people who said this would happen, when you think about it there was no other way it could have ended up this way. Local government representatives well out of their depth, and the likes of Fred the Shred wanting a tram stop at the RBS front door at Gogar.

[Dashing Bob S]

As someone who supported the tram project, I have to confess the whole thing is starting to make me cringe. We are going to end up with a toy system that will be the equivalent of taking a ride along Blackpool pier.

I apologise to the people who said this would happen, when you think about it there was no other way it could have ended up this way. Local government representatives well out of their depth, and the likes of Fred the Shred wanting a tram stop at the RBS front door at Gogar.

I'm totally in support of the tram projects. The contractors are out of order trying it on when labour costs and raw materials are cheaper now than when the contract was drawn up. If they have underpriced to get the contract then tough on them and well done to the council for sticking up for us.

It's not hard to predict that a UK capital project will overspend and take longer and overrun. Knee-jerk moans are too be expected, after all nobody likes their city being dug up or being inconvenienced. So many of the objections simply aren't valid though, coming from people who just want the status quo in life at all costs.

[Beefster]

I'm all for the trams. If I ever need to get from Leith to the Airport, I'll be sorted. Hopefully, they'll be quicker than the buses that do this route too.

[Ants]

All of these big projects are based and awarded on a minimal payment.
As soon as there is a change to the plans, the cost increases...

As soon as there is a graveyards discovered half way up Leith Walk, the cost increases and the work ceases.

Edinburgh has one of the best bus services available within the UK, why the need for the trams?

Once the trams do come along, is everyone going to support the bus drivers that are now out of work due to the trams?

Edinburghs biggest WHITE ELEPHANT

[Mibbes Aye]

All of these big projects are based and awarded on a minimal payment.
As soon as there is a change to the plans, the cost increases...

As soon as there is a graveyards discovered half way up Leith Walk, the cost increases and the work ceases.

Edinburgh has one of the best bus services available within the UK, why the need for the trams?

Once the trams do come along, is everyone going to support the bus drivers that are now out of work due to the trams?



I think the business case was around a big projected increase in housing around Granton/Leith etc (20,000 units?) combined with a big expansion in commercial space at Edinburgh Park.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm totally in support of the tram projects. The contractors are out of order trying it on when labour costs and raw materials are cheaper now than when the contract was drawn up. If they have underpriced to get the contract then tough on them and well done to the council for sticking up for us.

It's not hard to predict that a UK capital project will overspend and take longer and overrun. Knee-jerk moans are too be expected, after all nobody likes their city being dug up or being inconvenienced. So many of the objections simply aren't valid though, coming from people who just want the status quo in life at all costs.

What concerns me is that they are now talking about the line possibly stopping at Haymarket and starting at Ocean Terminal, if that was the case, I think it would not be a real system at all, just a wee thing to ferry tourists around.

[NaeTechnoHibby]

I think the business case was around a big projected increase in housing around Granton/Leith etc (20,000 units?) combined with a big expansion in commercial space at Edinburgh Park.

The service 22 does that route, and that is what the trams are replacing.

I nearly cry every time I go near Princes Street, the West End and Leith Walk and see the huge mess that has been created :boo hoo:

IMO there was absolutely no need for these trams :bitchy:

As an aside, we now have bus lanes on the route taken by the 22 parallel to what was the 'Guideway' and reducing even more options for peeps like me, who are paying for trams but will never get the benefit of them, and all the taxpayers who dinnae live/work in Edinburgh :bitchy:

The SNP were right about this and shame on the coallition of others who voted this project through :chop::chop::chop:

Is there anyone here who will actually use this tram an a daily basis??

Signed,
Curious-are-us :greengrin

[Dashing Bob S]

What concerns me is that they are now talking about the line possibly stopping at Haymarket and starting at Ocean Terminal, if that was the case, I think it would not be a real system at all, just a wee thing to ferry tourists around.

Agree totally, football fans and tourists only, and utterly tragic. But we need to start somewhere and the quicker we start the cheaper it gets to put I subsequent lines ones the depot and other infrastructure is down. I think they have too finish the airport to city to Leith line and then do the rest.

But like you one of my biggest fears is a tourist train that goes up and down Princess Street rather than a proper transport system.

In other words: don't bottle it.

[col02]

In retrospect or maybe common sense would it not have been a good idea to have a section of track from say Ocean terminal to the top of Leith walk laid as a priority and then move on to the next section of track rather than this mish mash of work that they have undertaken? Least if you had the track up and running albeit on a limited scale you might then see more people supporting it! Instead because of the prolonged disruptions public opinion is by and large cynical of the whole project more so with it running well behind schedule and well over budget.

[Mibbes Aye]

The service 22 does that route, and that is what the trams are replacing.

I nearly cry every time I go near Princes Street, the West End and Leith Walk and see the huge mess that has been created :boo hoo:

IMO there was absolutely no need for these trams :bitchy:

As an aside, we now have bus lanes on the route taken by the 22 parallel to what was the 'Guideway' and reducing even more options for peeps like me, who are paying for trams but will never get the benefit of them, and all the taxpayers who dinnae live/work in Edinburgh :bitchy:

The SNP were right about this and shame on the coallition of others who voted this project through :chop::chop::chop:

Is there anyone here who will actually use this tram an a daily basis??

Signed,
Curious-are-us :greengrin

I'm not overly familiar with the business case and I know the 22 goes from EP to Leith - but I'm guessing that it's a capacity thing. If you have a lot more people coming from Granton/Leith and a lot more people going to EP then how many more no.22s will you need? There comes a point when even with Greenways you're going to get congestion and gridlock.

[RyeSloan]

In retrospect or maybe common sense would it not have been a good idea to have a section of track from say Ocean terminal to the top of Leith walk laid as a priority and then move on to the next section of track rather than this mish mash of work that they have undertaken? Least if you had the track up and running albeit on a limited scale you might then see more people supporting it! Instead because of the prolonged disruptions public opinion is by and large cynical of the whole project more so with it running well behind schedule and well over budget.

Various reasons, one being the position of the main tram depot which will be out west.

Strange thing is thought the plan was ALWAYS to move in 200m (or something like that) section, digging up the road for utility moves then laying the track before moving on....as soon as the ink was dry on the contract all that changed to all prep work first which has caused the massive amount of roadworks all at the same time. Sadly this change was simply nodded through by all concerned.


Me I would have had a tram system in the city centre only, replacing ALL buses. These would then link in at certain terminal point (leith walk, london road, top of lothian road and haymarket). This would have removed the huge amount of bus journies through the city centre, allowed much more frequent bus services into the terminals (they wouldn't all be in a line in Princess Street for 45 minutes) and given us a reasonably cost effective way of increasing passenger numbers, bus frequency while decreasing pollution and travel times. What we have now is a half baked version of nothing that needs 2 or 3 more lines to make it work properly, lines that simply won't be able to be financed (see the decision to scrap the Granton loop section)

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Various reasons, one being the position of the main tram depot which will be out west.

Strange thing is thought the plan was ALWAYS to move in 200m (or something like that) section, digging up the road for utility moves then laying the track before moving on....as soon as the ink was dry on the contract all that changed to all prep work first which has caused the massive amount of roadworks all at the same time. Sadly this change was simply nodded through by all concerned.


Me I would have had a tram system in the city centre only, replacing ALL buses. These would then link in at certain terminal point (leith walk, london road, top of lothian road and haymarket). This would have removed the huge amount of bus journies through the city centre, allowed much more frequent bus services into the terminals (they wouldn't all be in a line in Princess Street for 45 minutes) and given us a reasonably cost effective way of increasing passenger numbers, bus frequency while decreasing pollution and travel times. What we have now is a half baked version of nothing that needs 2 or 3 more lines to make it work properly, lines that simply won't be able to be financed (see the decision to scrap the Granton loop section)

Spoke to a bus driver who drives out to the airport. He said what the powers that be are trying to do is the same setup to Prague. Never been to Prague but from what he told me it looks like its what you are outlining above.

Ataxi driver made a good point to me once:

What a tram can do that a bus can't? But importantly what can a bus do that a tram can't - its all about flexibility.
What happens when two trams - one in either direction break down on Princes St. - Bedlam!

[Dashing Bob S]

Spoke to a bus driver who drives out to the airport. He said what the powers that be are trying to do is the same setup to Prague. Never been to Prague but from what he told me it looks like its what you are outlining above.

Ataxi driver made a good point to me once:

What a tram can do that a bus can't? But importantly what can a bus do that a tram can't - its all about flexibility.
What happens when two trams - one in either direction break down on Princes St. - Bedlam!

1. Take more people. The trams in Dublin hold more than the buses.
2. Go faster. The journey time from central Dublin to Tallaght in 28 mins. Used too be 48 by bus.
3. Offer a smoother journey without you being shake like a pea in a refs whistle.
4. Not mess up the environment.
5. Be more cost effective in the long run and take us away from dependency on oil-based transport.

Comparing buses to the modern trams is like comparing the Tynecastle asbsetos stand to the remodeled Wembley Stadium.

[The_Todd]

Is there anyone here who will actually use this tram an a daily basis??

Signed,
Curious-are-us :greengrin


Yes, those who use a 22.

The rest of us won't make any use of it.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

1. Take more people. The trams in Dublin hold more than the buses.
2. Go faster. The journey time from central Dublin to Tallaght in 28 mins. Used too be 48 by bus.
3. Offer a smoother journey without you being shake like a pea in a refs whistle.
4. Not mess up the environment.
5. Be more cost effective in the long run and take us away from dependency on oil-based transport.

Comparing buses to the modern trams is like comparing the Tynecastle asbsetos stand to the remodeled Wembley Stadium.
That'll teach me to listen too closely to taxi drivers

[Phil D. Rolls]

Ataxi driver made a good point to me once:

What a tram can do that a bus can't? But importantly what can a bus do that a tram can't - its all about flexibility.
What happens when two trams - one in either direction break down on Princes St. - Bedlam!

A tram can run on electricity, a bus can't. Something to think about for the future, even if all we are getting is a toy tram set to start with.

[IWasThere2016]

Will more folks get knocked doon by a tram than a bus?

[Jack]

Will more folks get knocked doon by a tram than a bus?

Good point Quiet Man. The trams are likely to be very much more quiet than other vehicles and is likely to sneak up on all our old folks and kill them. :devil:

All joking apart I noticed that in Dublin a lot of the track was away from the street sort of thing while most of oor trams will run along what were once upon a time very busy thoroughfares, Leith Walk will have shut down completely by the time the first tram runs up or down it. :agree:

There's bound to have been projections for everything to do with a project this size. I wonder what the predicted kill/injury rate was that was considered acceptable.

[Woody1985]

Good point Quiet Man. The trams are likely to be very much more quiet than other vehicles and is likely to sneak up on all our old folks and kill them. :devil:

All joking apart I noticed that in Dublin a lot of the track was away from the street sort of thing while most of oor trams will run along what were once upon a time very busy thoroughfares, Leith Walk will have shut down completely by the time the first tram runs up or down it. :agree:

There's bound to have been projections for everything to do with a project this size. I wonder what the predicted kill/injury rate was that was considered acceptable.

I raised this question previously on here and there were comments from the guy who stays in Prague and theirs have been pretty safe based on the stats he mentioned.

[J-C]

Remember folks, the trams were brought in as a cleaner option to the bus and by bringing them in is reducing the buses by 10%. So instead of having 20 buses nose to tail along Princes St, when the tram comes in there will only be 18 buses nose to tail. As you can see, it'll make an enormous difference, not.