Sarah Palin on 'Socialised Healthcare'.

[LiverpoolHibs]

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Seriously, she's either certifiably insane or is part of an elaborate Situationist-style piss take.

Either way it's a worry that the ****-wit has even an iota of power.

[Oscar T Grouch]

Seriously, she's either certifiably insane or is part of an elaborate Situationist-style piss take.

Either way it's a worry that the ****-wit has even an iota of power.

She has no power at the moment thank fek! She has resigned her post in the hope of getting into the Senate.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Seriously, she's either certifiably insane or is part of an elaborate Situationist-style piss take.

Either way it's a worry that the ****-wit has even an iota of power.

Can't get my head round this, is this not what she really thinks?

[Jack]

There was a story running in the USA papers today about a USA health charity who go round the world helping out after disasters and the like.

They must have had a chat with a clairvoyant as this week, no disasters, they set up shop in an area full of desperate people needing all sorts of medical treatments and advice. In one paper I read about a teenage girl who hadn’t seen a dentist for more than 5 years; that’s at a time when dental work can be most effective in mapping out a person dental life.

Word of mouth (I know, sorry about the pun) got round the neighbourhood and before long there were over 1,500 people in line. Some had been there since before midnight and it was well into the night when the last of them were seen. They expect the same to happen for the remaining days they are there.

Some poor village in Asia somewhere? Some township in Africa or shanty town in India?

NO, its was happening in LA, yes, Los Angeles, California, USA. The USA, a country where over 46,000,000 have no health insurance at all and a further 100,000,000 have inadequate medical insurance.

The USA is arguing about healthcare while its citizens die.

On the one hand you have all the folk who have already made gazillions out of the healthcare system using that money to frightening people into keeping what they don’t have anyway and then you have the poor folk dying on their way to ER because they should have seen their non-existent family doctor months, maybe years ago.

I think that erse Palin has a slot in her back for the bucks. Put money in it and she says what the bucks tell her to.

[LiverpoolHibs]

She has no power at the moment thank fek! She has resigned her post in the hope of getting into the Senate.

True, but she's managing to mobilise (not single-handedly, granted, but nevertheless...) thousands of similarly idiotic people in protests against any health reform.


Can't get my head round this, is this not what she really thinks?

Que?

[Phil D. Rolls]

True, but she's managing to mobilise (not single-handedly, granted, but nevertheless...) thousands of similarly idiotic people in protests against any health reform.



Que?

I don't know much about this woman, other than that she is a bit of populist right winger. But looking at her statement she seems to be in favour of making health care available to all without the need to justify it on the grounds of productivity.

I wouldn't have expected her to say that, and I'm wondering if I have the wrong end of the stick.

[da-robster]

I don't know much about this woman, other than that she is a bit of populist right winger. But looking at her statement she seems to be in favour of making health care available to all without the need to justify it on the grounds of productivity.

I wouldn't have expected her to say that, and I'm wondering if I have the wrong end of the stick.

To me she doesn't seem to say anything at all apart from negativity. What I think these people need to understand is that there is a private healthcare sector in Britain and both public and private can live side by side. You are not forced to go to the NHS you can go private as well.

[ancienthibby]

I don't know much about this woman, other than that she is a bit of populist right winger. But looking at her statement she seems to be in favour of making health care available to all without the need to justify it on the grounds of productivity.

I wouldn't have expected her to say that, and I'm wondering if I have the wrong end of the stick.

The issue here is the OP we have been given. If it is correct and Obama's and the US government's positions are correctly stated then Sarah Palin is correct!!

For the record, the position attributed to Obama does not sound like something he would condone - what is the source of this supposed extract??

[Phil D. Rolls]

The issue here is the OP we have been given. If it is correct and Obama's and the US government's positions are correctly stated then Sarah Palin is correct!!

For the record, the position attributed to Obama does not sound like something he would condone - what is the source of this supposed extract??

That's where I'm coming from.:agree:

[Jack]

AFAIK in the States at the moment if your ill and have to go to hospital or to the family doctor (GP), for example, the story goes that you will get the treatment. That’s part of the anti health reform line, there's much more that’s bollocks.

So that’s not true, besides many Americans not having adequate enough healthcare insurance to cover what in the UK we might describe as relatively basic, the fact is insurance companies have the power of veto over clinicians or will instruct clinicians to think again, something Palin and her crowd seem to ignore and what they're saying is that some faceless bureaucrat will decide if you can get the treatment based on your ability to contribute to society, which again isn't true. As far as I am aware the system would be much more weighted to the clinician than it is just now.

From what I can gather the Obama proposed system is a bit like our paying National Insurance except it would go into minimum standard type health insurance policies.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I don't know much about this woman, other than that she is a bit of populist right winger. But looking at her statement she seems to be in favour of making health care available to all without the need to justify it on the grounds of productivity.

I wouldn't have expected her to say that, and I'm wondering if I have the wrong end of the stick.


The issue here is the OP we have been given. If it is correct and Obama's and the US government's positions are correctly stated then Sarah Palin is correct!!

For the record, the position attributed to Obama does not sound like something he would condone - what is the source of this supposed extract??


That's where I'm coming from.:agree:

What the??!! But of course it isn't correct. That is how she believes the NHS and its variants around the world work.

Or at least how she's attempting to portray it to her sympathisers etc.

The clue was in the title of the thread Sarah Palin on 'Socialised Healthcare'...

[Phil D. Rolls]

What the??!! But of course it isn't correct. That is how she believes the NHS and its variants around the world work.

Or at least how she's attempting to portray it to her sympathisers etc.

The clue was in the title of the thread Sarah Palin on 'Socialised Healthcare'...

Trying to keep an open mind on it mate. It's just that the quote given implies that she is in favour of health care for all.

[ancienthibby]

AFAIK in the States at the moment if your ill and have to go to hospital or to the family doctor (GP), for example, the story goes that you will get the treatment. That’s part of the anti health reform line, there's much more that’s bollocks.

So that’s not true, besides many Americans not having adequate enough healthcare insurance to cover what in the UK we might describe as relatively basic, the fact is insurance companies have the power of veto over clinicians or will instruct clinicians to think again, something Palin and her crowd seem to ignore and what they're saying is that some faceless bureaucrat will decide if you can get the treatment based on your ability to contribute to society, which again isn't true. As far as I am aware the system would be much more weighted to the clinician than it is just now.

From what I can gather the Obama proposed system is a bit like our paying National Insurance except it would go into minimum standard type health insurance policies.

So, given your words in bold, the quotation (where-ever from?) in the first post is a load of codswallop??

[LiverpoolHibs]

Trying to keep an open mind on it mate. It's just that the quote given implies that she is in favour of health care for all.

Does it? I don't think it gives any indication of her own beliefs on health-care; merely cynical/idiotic scaremongering about what would happen in an NHS-style health service.


So, given your words in bold, the quotation (where-ever from?) in the first post is a load of codswallop??

It's from Sarah Palin! Of course it's codswallop.

I'm not quite sure why this has gone so badly but to clear up:

The quote is her take on Obama's intended reforms - http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/palin-paints-picture-of-obama-death-panel-giving-thumbs-down-to-trig.html

Which even fellow Republicans have pointed out to be complete, unadulterated bollocks -

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/is_the_government_going_to_eut.html#more

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gPQKN26HCWfPH2a1i0LorK8CG-sgD9A1FMGO1

[Phil D. Rolls]

Does it? I don't think it gives any indication of her own beliefs on health-care; merely cynical/idiotic scaremongering about what would happen in an NHS-style health service.



It's from Sarah Palin! Of course it's codswallop.

I'm not quite sure why this has gone so badly but to clear up:

The quote is her take on Obama's intended reforms - http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/palin-paints-picture-of-obama-death-panel-giving-thumbs-down-to-trig.html

Which even fellow Republicans have pointed out to be complete, unadulterated bollocks -

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/is_the_government_going_to_eut.html#more

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gPQKN26HCWfPH2a1i0LorK8CG-sgD9A1FMGO1

I get you, how can she be so far from the truth and taken seriously? I take it there is no panel that you have to go in front of to claim health care.

Not being facetious here, I honestly know very little about what Obama has put forward. I take it she is trying to divert attention from the fact that her side doesn't have a system at all.

Obama's system, from what I can glean from this thread, seems to be based on the ability to pay into a fund, so I take it the poorest are still excluded?

[Jack]

So, given your words in bold, the quotation (where-ever from?) in the first post is a load of codswallop??


Yes, as far as I understand it.

The decision on treatment plans would be as it is here, more or less, in the UK with clinicians in the NHS free to chose what they consider the best treatment option from what is available i.e. those treatments passed by the independent National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE (http://www.nice.org.uk/aboutnice/)).

[LiverpoolHibs]

I get you, how can she be so far from the truth and taken seriously? I take it there is no panel that you have to go in front of to claim health care.

Nope, not at all. Crackers isn't it?


Not being facetious here, I honestly know very little about what Obama has put forward. I take it she is trying to divert attention from the fact that her side doesn't have a system at all.

I think her preferred system is just the status quo.


Obama's system, from what I can glean from this thread, seems to be based on the ability to pay into a fund, so I take it the poorest are still excluded?

The Obama reforms aren't really very radical at all. Reducing insurance premiums for those in employment/able to afford, a public sector alternative to private health insurance, the introduction of a sort of blanket coverage (but not quite) for those without employment insurance and mandatory health insurance for children but not adults.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yes, as far as I understand it.

The decision on treatment plans would be as it is here, more or less, in the UK with clinicians in the NHS free to chose what they consider the best treatment option from what is available i.e. those treatments passed by the independent National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE (http://www.nice.org.uk/aboutnice/)).

A pedant writes:

NICE Guidelines are English, the equivalent in Scotland is SIGN, which is used first unless NICE is the only guideline available.

Just thought I should emphasise that the Scottish NHS and the English NHS often walk different roads.

[Jack]

A pedant writes:

NICE Guidelines are English, the equivalent in Scotland is SIGN, which is used first unless NICE is the only guideline available.

Just thought I should emphasise that the Scottish NHS and the English NHS often walk different roads.

You're right. I couldn't for the life of me remember what our one was and was eating my tea before I rushed out to play. They are very close to each other most of the time though.

I'm on the bus now so I doubt I'll be saying much more tonight.

[(((Fergus)))]

To me she doesn't seem to say anything at all apart from negativity. What I think these people need to understand is that there is a private healthcare sector in Britain and both public and private can live side by side. You are not forced to go to the NHS you can go private as well.

You are forced to pay for the NHS and therefore have less money available to go private.

[Twa Cairpets]

You are forced to pay for the NHS and therefore have less money available to go private.

So you are not in favour of the NHS being funded through taxation?

[lyonhibs]

So you are not in favour of the NHS being funded through taxation?

Nope.

Fairy dust and a lot of homeopathy should be enough :devil:

[LiverpoolHibs]

You are forced to pay for the NHS and therefore have less money available to go private.

Ken, it's great isn't it! I'm rapidly coming to think that you're Ron Paul's doppelgänger. :wink:


Nope.

Fairy dust and a lot of homeopathy should be enough :devil:

:tee hee:

[Allant1981]

You are forced to pay for the NHS and therefore have less money available to go private.


Not if you dont work or pay taxes

[Dashing Bob S]

Its amazing the sheer unremitting and hysterical demented attack by the right wing in America, against what, as LH says, are very modest and moderate reforms in the health care system.

Pallin is to the fore in this. A poisonous nutjob.

Saw her on Fox News the other week, and am embarrassed to say that I still find her sexy.

[Dinkydoo]

Sarah Palin is a complete nutter. The scarey thing was that she came reasonably close to making a lot of peoples lives a living hell.

Did the votes not end up pretty close in the end?

I read somewhere that she was spotted attending an Anit-Witchcraft ceremony - I suppose it's not quite as bad as attending a pro withcraft ceremony though eh. :wink:

[givescotlandfreedom]

Wouldn't it be a shame if fate took a twist to these right wing notjob's lives and they couldn't afford healthcare they desperately needed to live? Well no actually it wouldn't.

[Twa Cairpets]

If you thought Palin was certifiable, this was on Fox News as a serious news piece:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c-JEx-Kfvc&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebadscience%2Enet%2F&feature=player_embedded#t=102

If I've got it right, the NHS is a breeding ground for terrorists due to the poor wages Doctors get paid. I've often what Fergus looks like - now we know...

[CropleyWasGod]

I was a stand-up gig tonight. The comic, an American, made some crack about the right-wing hysteria in the States. Another American.... she must have been all of 20.... shouted out that the "NHS sucks". Cue mayhem. At a comedy gig ffs. I know it's wrong to slap people, BUT......

[HibsMax]

To me she doesn't seem to say anything at all apart from negativity. What I think these people need to understand is that there is a private healthcare sector in Britain and both public and private can live side by side. You are not forced to go to the NHS you can go private as well.
The issue a lot of Americans have is that they don't want to pay for public healthcare, they want everyone to look after themselves, pay their own way. The argument is that you then have all sorts of degenerates sponging off the system. They're (we're) a caring bunch. ;)

I spoke with a person about this just last week and his argument was this. If you give people "free" healthcare, they don't have an incentive to work. I swear those were his words. I was dumbfounded. I said, "You know that people work to earn money to pay for more than just healthcare, right?" but I was pretty smashed at that point and I don't recall what his answer was. LOL.

[RyeSloan]

You're right. I couldn't for the life of me remember what our one was and was eating my tea before I rushed out to play. They are very close to each other most of the time though.

I'm on the bus now so I doubt I'll be saying much more tonight.

:faf: :faf:

Off topic I know but did anybody else read this and instantly think of a kid running out to play then later being told to be quiet when sitting next to his mum on the bus.....













OK maybe it was only me then. :dizzy: :greengrin

[(((Fergus)))]

Not if you dont work or pay taxes

Anyone who buys something with VAT on it or other special duty, e.g., fuel, is paying taxes.

[(((Fergus)))]

Ken, it's great isn't it! I'm rapidly coming to think that you're Ron Paul's doppelgänger. :wink:



:tee hee:

Ha ha very funny. Care to explain why I or anyone else should be compelled to pay for your choice of treatment? I'm not talking about charity - which is fine - I'm talking about compulsory payments.

[CropleyWasGod]

Ha ha very funny. Care to explain why I or anyone else should be compelled to pay for your choice of treatment? I'm not talking about charity - which is fine - I'm talking about compulsory payments.


For me, it's one of the cornerstones of a civilised and caring society. Health and education are fundamental, and we should all put our tuppence in to preserve that. Whether or not we take advantage of those "free" services is irrelevant, we all benefit.

Bottom line.... we are a democracy, so if we don't like it, we change it.

[Jack]

:faf: :faf:

Off topic I know but did anybody else read this and instantly think of a kid running out to play then later being told to be quiet when sitting next to his mum on the bus.....


OK maybe it was only me then. :dizzy: :greengrin

That's me, nothing but a big kid :greengrin

[The_Todd]

Some Americans have funny ideas about the NHS. Reminds me of this, which I found on Failblog yesterday:

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/128946007174095279.jpg

[LiverpoolHibs]

Ha ha very funny. Care to explain why I or anyone else should be compelled to pay for your choice of treatment? I'm not talking about charity - which is fine - I'm talking about compulsory payments.

Because it's for the 'greater good'. I think that treating people on the grounds of what they need rather than what they can pay is the benchmark of a civilised nation state. The only way for that to be done is through the basic NHS model.

I imagine you're similarly opposed to State education, yeah?

What's your alternative, out of interest?

[da-robster]

Ha ha very funny. Care to explain why I or anyone else should be compelled to pay for your choice of treatment? I'm not talking about charity - which is fine - I'm talking about compulsory payments.

Because For many it's not a choice more a neccisity if we had a similar system these people would be dead or bankrupt do you want that just to save you some money.Do you believe that a man with £100 000 should get crutches for a broken leg while a man with £100 shouldn't. Do you believe he is morally superior to you so is deserving of better treatment. If you don't then why do you seem to hate the NHS which is giving poor people the chance not too worry about healthcare not to save up in case they get cancer and insurance does not cover it and to spend that money on a better life.

[Twa Cairpets]

Ha ha very funny. Care to explain why I or anyone else should be compelled to pay for your choice of treatment? I'm not talking about charity - which is fine - I'm talking about compulsory payments.

Because you are part of an advanced democracy.
Because you are a human being
Because health, education and sanitation are things that are best managed collectively.
Because it is the right thing to do

As long of course that we dont pay for Homeopathic hospitals.

[Part/Time Supporter]

The issue a lot of Americans have is that they don't want to pay for public healthcare, they want everyone to look after themselves, pay their own way. The argument is that you then have all sorts of degenerates sponging off the system. They're (we're) a caring bunch. ;)

I spoke with a person about this just last week and his argument was this. If you give people "free" healthcare, they don't have an incentive to work. I swear those were his words. I was dumbfounded. I said, "You know that people work to earn money to pay for more than just healthcare, right?" but I was pretty smashed at that point and I don't recall what his answer was. LOL.

In the US that is kind of true though, because about 16% of national wealth goes into health there, here it is more like 8%. For all its faults the NHS is reasonable value for money.

[Phil D. Rolls]

In the US that is kind of true though, because about 16% of national wealth goes into health there, here it is more like 8%. For all its faults the NHS is reasonable value for money.

Do Americans spend more because there is no control over what drug companies, and health professionals can charge?

[Jack]

Do Americans spend more because there is no control over what drug companies, and health professionals can charge?

That, the fact that tests and scans are done again and again, and what the insurance companies cream off.

[Phil D. Rolls]

That, the fact that tests and scans are done again and again, and what the insurance companies cream off.

One of the things that has stunned me since I started studying is the control American Insurance companies have over world health. I hadn't realised that the primary purpose of the the diagnostic criteria that are used for illness throughout the world, is to help insurance claims handlers!

How's your Sciatica by the way?