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View Full Version : Scotland. Where Do We Go From Here ?



johnrebus
13-08-2009, 09:22 AM
Norway 4, Scotland 0

This should really serve to be the final wake up call, or we could be heading for the wastelands of world football, along with the likes of Lichtenstien, Faroes, Andorra etc etc.

There are so many things wrong at so many levels that it is difficult to konw where to start.

From the way the game is administered, with Gordon Smith and George Peat and the handling of the 'Boozegate Affair', to Lex - no, everything is great, honestly - Gold, and the clowns responsible for the current Livingston affair.

Rangers and Celtic squeezing the other clubs dry, whilst nabbing all the best players ( then sitting them on the bench ), whilst claiming that there is no real competition in Scotland, and can we please go and play in the EPL ?

More worrying of course, are the actual players themselves, with the skill levels shown last night as totally inept. Embarrassing.

The last point is the one which IMHO we need to address first - and quickly.
Youngsters of real quality are just not coming through in sufficient numbers and we need to go right back to basics and start at five year olds to change this.

The SFA does deserve a liitle - and only a little - credit for attempting to change things in the last few years, but it really does have to become radical now.

The main problem as I see it is that most - if not all - the best coaches, are working at the wrong end of the game. They are working with the thirteen to nineteen year olds, when it should be the five to twelve year old kids who are getting the most attention to develop natural skills. All this should be done in the correct environment of course, and not on a wet and windblown scabby pitch in sub zero temperatures.

We are light years behind so many countries in the way we teach our kids.

In footballing terms we are getting exactly what we deserve. Its been spoken about and debated so often, but now it has to be time to go back to the beginning and start all over again from scratch.


Thoughts ?

:rolleyes:

Joe Baker II
13-08-2009, 09:29 AM
I think last night was turned by the referee to be honest, 11 against 11 and think we would have won it.

But you are totally right about SFA handling of the boozing affair - could also add the fixture schedule they agreed too - playing international before start of league season was ludicrous.

JE89
13-08-2009, 09:33 AM
I think last night was turned by the referee to be honest, 11 against 11 and think we would have won it.

But you are totally right about SFA handling of the boozing affair - could also add the fixture schedule they agreed too - playing international before start of league season was ludicrous.

Lets be fair, we can't really complain about Caldwell getting sent off can we?

For the record, I have not read any of the post match threads so apoligies if this have been discussed.

Hibster
13-08-2009, 09:46 AM
Norway 4, Scotland 0

This should really serve to be the final wake up call, or we could be heading for the wastelands of world football, along with the likes of Lichtenstien, Faroes, Andorra etc etc.

There are so many things wrong at so many levels that it is difficult to konw where to start.

From the way the game is administered, with Gordon Smith and George Peat and the handling of the 'Boozegate Affair', to Lex - no, everything is great, honestly - Gold, and the clowns responsible for the current Livingston affair.

Rangers and Celtic squeezing the other clubs dry, whilst nabbing all the best players ( then sitting them on the bench ), whilst claiming that there is no real competition in Scotland, and can we please go and play in the EPL ?

More worrying of course, are the actual players themselves, with the skill levels shown last night as totally inept. Embarrassing.

The last point is the one which IMHO we need to address first - and quickly.
Youngsters of real quality are just not coming through in sufficient numbers and we need to go right back to basics and start at five year olds to change this.

The SFA does deserve a liitle - and only a little - credit for attempting to change things in the last few years, but it really does have to become radical now.

The main problem as I see it is that most - if not all - the best coaches, are working at the wrong end of the game. They are working with the thirteen to nineteen year olds, when it should be the five to twelve year old kids who are getting the most attention to develop natural skills. All this should be done in the correct environment of course, and not on a wet and windblown scabby pitch in sub zero temperatures.

We are light years behind so many countries in the way we teach our kids.

In footballing terms we are getting exactly what we deserve. Its been spoken about and debated so often, but now it has to be time to go back to the beginning and start all over again from scratch.


Thoughts ?

:rolleyes:

It was a bad night, thats all. There's plenty of good players in Scotland, and players like Hutton, Brown, McCormack and McFadden are far from being inept. Things could be improved in Scotland but I think this talk of having to go back to basics is a little over-dramatic. I remember the exact same argument being made over and over again during the hours of debate and wallowing that followed England's loss in Russia a couple of years ago - two years on and they're top of their group, all of the 'back to basics, we need to change everything' chat completely forgotten.

It was a bad result but its not the end of the world - we're never going to be world beaters, and occasionally when things don't go our way we'll get hammered. I still reckon we'll beat Macedonia and give the Netherlands a good game though, and come qualifying for 2012 we'll be in the running as usual.

Joe Baker II
13-08-2009, 10:08 AM
Lets be fair, we can't really complain about Caldwell getting sent off can we?

.


I think we had every reson to complain, it was a shocker.

blackpoolhibs
13-08-2009, 10:41 AM
I think we had every reson to complain, it was a shocker.

I agree, both were pulling each others shirt, although the ref from his position could only see calamity doing it.

Mag7
13-08-2009, 10:52 AM
Where do Scotland go from here? How about scrapping the national team and going for a team GB? The Olympics would be a good testing ground for it if the SFA weren't so narrow minded about agreeing to it. Hopefully it could prove the forerunner to UK league and sweep away the mind-numbing staleness that surrounds the whole Scottish game.

hibs1875aye
13-08-2009, 11:06 AM
Where do Scotland go from here? How about scrapping the national team and going for a team GB? The Olympics would be a good testing ground for it if the SFA weren't so narrow minded about agreeing to it. Hopefully it could prove the forerunner to UK league and sweep away the mind-numbing staleness that surrounds the whole Scottish game.

Yet another post that goes beyond the "I dont care" about Scotland mantle to the whole lets kill the team off completely and have UK team which VERY Few people want!

As for the problems with Scottish football, yes we had a bad night last night. I dont think its as bad as some think in Scotland but we DO need a change in management as Burley is taking us nowhere fast. All the problems noted by the thread starter are in varying degrees spot on in my opinion but, the simple fact is, the same crop of untalented players were very UNLUCKY under different management. The same can be said about Hibs with different managers - Williamson trying to punt our stars for hun rejects anyone? Mowbray didnt do that and it made a difference...it isnt ALL down to the manager but a big part of it is.

If we had a half decent manager, and I've said this since the first games Burley had in charge, we'd be challenging for the play off spot. Our players arent so bad as some would believe - they are mismanaged and underperforming. I hate Boyd but even he had a point when Burley told him after he'd panned off his holidays and went with Scotland that he wouldnt play. Like I say, I hate Boyd the fat lazy hun but Burleys treatment of the players is *****. Same with McFadden...his treatmnt of him is out of order too.

Need a change at the top, then see where we go.

Hibster
13-08-2009, 11:23 AM
Where do Scotland go from here? How about scrapping the national team and going for a team GB? The Olympics would be a good testing ground for it if the SFA weren't so narrow minded about agreeing to it. Hopefully it could prove the forerunner to UK league and sweep away the mind-numbing staleness that surrounds the whole Scottish game.

I'd love there to be a UK league. Would absolutely hate having a team GB though...can't think of anything worse

--------
13-08-2009, 11:24 AM
Norway 4, Scotland 0

This should really serve to be the final wake up call, or we could be heading for the wastelands of world football, along with the likes of Lichtenstien, Faroes, Andorra etc etc.

There are so many things wrong at so many levels that it is difficult to konw where to start.

From the way the game is administered, with Gordon Smith and George Peat and the handling of the 'Boozegate Affair', to Lex - no, everything is great, honestly - Gold, and the clowns responsible for the current Livingston affair.

Rangers and Celtic squeezing the other clubs dry, whilst nabbing all the best players ( then sitting them on the bench ), whilst claiming that there is no real competition in Scotland, and can we please go and play in the EPL ?

More worrying of course, are the actual players themselves, with the skill levels shown last night as totally inept. Embarrassing.

The last point is the one which IMHO we need to address first - and quickly.
Youngsters of real quality are just not coming through in sufficient numbers and we need to go right back to basics and start at five year olds to change this.

The SFA does deserve a liitle - and only a little - credit for attempting to change things in the last few years, but it really does have to become radical now.

The main problem as I see it is that most - if not all - the best coaches, are working at the wrong end of the game. They are working with the thirteen to nineteen year olds, when it should be the five to twelve year old kids who are getting the most attention to develop natural skills. All this should be done in the correct environment of course, and not on a wet and windblown scabby pitch in sub zero temperatures.

We are light years behind so many countries in the way we teach our kids.

In footballing terms we are getting exactly what we deserve. Its been spoken about and debated so often, but now it has to be time to go back to the beginning and start all over again from scratch.


Thoughts ?

:rolleyes:


As far as the team goes, I think Burley and the Uggs have been tarnished by Boozegate - they failed to give proper direction to the players at the time. I wasn't convinced when the appointments were made and they appear to me to be way out of their depth.

Smith and Peat are another prize pair - expecting them to put the SFA's house in order is ridiculous. Smith's a lightweight mediabloke with OF connections, and Peat still can't go out in Airdrie after dark or the old Airdrieonians Supporters Trust will get him for the stuff that went on there while he was a director.

And Lex Gold's finest hour at ER was leading the charge into the First Division - was it not the bold Lexxy who appointed Duff Jimmy? He certainly kept him in the job long after his sell-by date. The onbly good thing I know about Lex is that he promised to resign if we went down; we did, and he did. Mind, he'd have been tarred and feathered if he hadn't, and he knew it.

So we have an agent/media talking head, a guy widely blamed for the demise of one former SPL club, and another guy who very nearly accounted for another SPL club, all running our game? Dear God.

When I remember some of the things we used to say about Jim Farry and Ernie Walker.... :rolleyes:

hibs1875aye
13-08-2009, 11:34 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/8199263.stm

at the start it says Smith is behind Burley. Read the rest and it looks like the big hun is looking to find someone to blame and rightly so. If he punts Burley pronto, we MIGHT have a chance for the Euro's!

"George was brought in for us to qualify for the 2010 World Cup," said Smith. "That was his remit, he was given a contract on that basis and therefore we will review his position when we see where we are.
"If we don't qualify, we'll have to look at the situation and that would be a board decision."

This should mean Burley is punted as, short of a minor miracle which I really hope we get, but doubt we WILL get, Burley is out the door. And bloody rightly so.:bye:

Hermit Crab
13-08-2009, 12:00 PM
Doesnae matter whos in charge of that team because its a very poor team regardless of the manager, last night was a humping but even with 11 men at best we would have got a draw. Lets face it Scotland were never going to get through the group stage anyway.

Even if we got playoff place we would get pumped as there are no crap teams. Remember Holland playoff? Just not good enough and seem to get shocking groups. :boo hoo:

Moulin Yarns
13-08-2009, 12:12 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/8199263.stm

at the start it says Smith is behind Burley. Read the rest and it looks like the big hun is looking to find someone to blame and rightly so. If he punts Burley pronto, we MIGHT have a chance for the Euro's!

"George was brought in for us to qualify for the 2010 World Cup," said Smith. "That was his remit, he was given a contract on that basis and therefore we will review his position when we see where we are.
"If we don't qualify, we'll have to look at the situation and that would be a board decision."

This should mean Burley is punted as, short of a minor miracle which I really hope we get, but doubt we WILL get, Burley is out the door. And bloody rightly so.:bye:


Last night almost certainly killed of our chances of a play off place.

FROM FIFA

"Determining Europe's runners-up

When the group phase of European Zone qualifying reaches its conclusion on 14 October 2009, the nine section winners will be guaranteed a place at the 2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa™. Thereafter, the eight best runners-up will compete in two-legged play-offs, with the continent's four remaining tickets to the world finals at stake.

Group 9 consists of five teams, one less than the other pools. When calculating the best runners-up, therefore, matches played against the sixth-placed finishers in Groups 1 to 8 will not be taken into consideration. The criteria will be as follows;

- Total points
- Goal difference
- Goals scored
- Goals scored away from home
- Disciplinary record *
- Drawing of lots

* Yellow card, -1 point; two yellow cards in the same match, -3 points; red card, -3 points; yellow card followed by a direct red card in the same match, -4 points."


Even if we make it as one of the best runners up in the groups, (cannae see it masel') last nights card count will knock us way back by -5 points.

Hibster
13-08-2009, 12:16 PM
Even if we make it as one of the best runners up in the groups, (cannae see it masel') last nights card count will knock us way back by -5 points.

Can't see it coming down to that. If we get 2nd it'll be our lack of points or rubbish goal difference that will keep us out of the play-offs.

Moulin Yarns
13-08-2009, 12:19 PM
Can't see it coming down to that. If we get 2nd it'll be our lack of points or rubbish goal difference that will keep us out of the play-offs.

Yes, but as I said IF we were one of the top 8 out of 9 :cool2:

Before last night I believe we were about 5th of the 9, now we're not even 10th

Hibster
13-08-2009, 12:23 PM
Yes, but as I said IF we were one of the top 8 out of 9 :cool2:

Before last night I believe we were about 5th of the 9, now we're not even 10th

But for it to come down to our disciplinary record, we'd have to have exactly the same points, goal difference, goals scored, and goals scored away from home as another team. Only then would it come down to how many cards we've received. Can't see it happening. If we make 2nd we're almost bound to have less points than the 8 other runners up, so the rest is irrelevant

homielang
13-08-2009, 12:35 PM
Where do we go from here? Home as usual.

The 2nd yellow was unwarranted but Burnley has no control over the squad. He should have been able to calm down both Caldwells and Scott Brown not only scored a cracking goal on a sub par goalkeeper but also was playing like a thug.

The whole debacle illustrates that for Scotland to compete it needs to have a Manager that has the respect of the squad.

Moulin Yarns
13-08-2009, 12:35 PM
But for it to come down to our disciplinary record, we'd have to have exactly the same points, goal difference, goals scored, and goals scored away from home as another team. Only then would it come down to how many cards we've received. Can't see it happening. If we make 2nd we're almost bound to have less points than the 8 other runners up, so the rest is irrelevant

I know, I know, I know.

I was just saying, heaven forbid, we pumped Macedonia and Holland by a barrowload of goals and everybody got all excited about qualification, it might all end up in tears because of the stupid ref last night dishing out cards as if he was in Clinton's.

johnrebus
13-08-2009, 12:37 PM
We have about as much chance of beating Holland as Christian Nade has of getting into double figures next season.........,


:rolleyes:

KeithTheHibby
13-08-2009, 12:41 PM
What disappoints me is the apparent backward step we have taken since Burley took over.

We should have moved on from the last campaign instead we have went backwards - we have the same players who should be more experienced so how come we are performing so badly?
Burley's decision to allow the players into having a bevvy after the gubbing we received from Holland must also be questioned, this whole stinking episode would not have happened if he had told the players to head to bed.
Can you imagine Capello saying to the England team, 'away and have a couple of pints lads before you head to your scratcher'. No danger would this happen.

Burley must go in my opinion and he can take his pair of sidekicks with him.

Sir David Gray
13-08-2009, 01:11 PM
What disappoints me is the apparent backward step we have taken since Burley took over.

We should have moved on from the last campaign instead we have went backwards - we have the same players who should be more experienced so how come we are performing so badly?
Burley's decision to allow the players into having a bevvy after the gubbing we received from Holland must also be questioned, this whole stinking episode would not have happened if he had told the players to head to bed.
Can you imagine Capello saying to the England team, 'away and have a couple of pints lads before you head to your scratcher'. No danger would this happen.

Burley must go in my opinion and he can take his pair of sidekicks with him.

:agree: A couple of good points there.

If there was someone who actually gave the green light for the players to drink that night, they should no longer be in a job. I don't know if it was Burley or someone else but they should have been punted straight away.

I don't believe that anyone authorised them to drink to the extent that Ferguson and McGregor drank to but they should all have been explicitly told to go to their bed.

As you say, I don't believe for one second that Fabio Capello would allow the England players to drink whilst they are on international duty, nor would any responsible manager/coach of a professional sports team.

JimBHibees
13-08-2009, 03:16 PM
:agree: A couple of good points there.

If there was someone who actually gave the green light for the players to drink that night, they should no longer be in a job. I don't know if it was Burley or someone else but they should have been punted straight away.

I don't believe that anyone authorised them to drink to the extent that Ferguson and McGregor drank to but they should all have been explicitly told to go to their bed.

As you say, I don't believe for one second that Fabio Capello would allow the England players to drink whilst they are on international duty, nor would any responsible manager/coach of a professional sports team.

Disagree, he probably said have a couple of pints if you want. The fact that supposed professionals including the team captain chose to take the michael wasnt Burleys fault IMO. He probably saw it as treating them like adults as a couple of pints would have been fine.

ancient hibee
13-08-2009, 04:20 PM
If the captain of the Scottish team needs to be told to stop boozing and go to bed it doesn't matter who the coach is.

RIP
13-08-2009, 04:38 PM
Where do Scotland go from here? How about scrapping the national team and going for a team GB? The Olympics would be a good testing ground for it if the SFA weren't so narrow minded about agreeing to it. Hopefully it could prove the forerunner to UK league and sweep away the mind-numbing staleness that surrounds the whole Scottish game.

I can see a problem there. The very concept of GB is an irrelevance to the vast majority of Scots.

Sure England fans would follow them but I can't see it interesting yer average Scot. With few or no Scottish players in the team we would have nothing to relate to?

Sir David Gray
13-08-2009, 04:40 PM
Disagree, he probably said have a couple of pints if you want. The fact that supposed professionals including the team captain chose to take the michael wasnt Burleys fault IMO. He probably saw it as treating them like adults as a couple of pints would have been fine.

Fair enough, I just don't believe that professional athletes should be drinking alcohol at all when they are 'in season'.

Was it not the case that they arrived back at Cameron House in the early hours of the Sunday morning? I know it's not a particularly long flight from Amsterdam but still, I would have thought most people would just be wanting to go to their bed after arriving home late at night/early in the morning, especially when you have just played a game of football and are having to prepare for another huge match in just over three days' time.

Even if they were allowed "a couple of pints" on their return to the hotel, the players who chose to drink still have to take responsibility for their actions but I just don't believe that any responsible coach of a professional sports team should be allowing their athletes to drink alcohol.

What Ferguson and McGregor got up to was disgraceful and the fact they got absolutely bladdered shows just how little respect they had, not just for George Burley, but also for their status as Scottish international players and, in Ferguson's case, as team captain. We are well shot of the two of them. However I still think you also have to seriously question whoever it was who gave the thumbs up for the players to consume any alcohol at all.

I don't think an Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho, Arsene Wenger or Fabio Capello would have allowed that to happen.

steakbake
13-08-2009, 05:11 PM
The players are fine. We have some very good players at our disposal and increasing numbers are plying their trade down south in various leagues which your average punter on here thinks are eminently more superior to our own. One of the main problems is that we are limited by ambition. Butcher and Burley are not the management team we need. Lions led by donkeys and all that.

The perennial problem in Scottish football is the organisation that runs it and is responsible for the national team. The interests of the OF are put a long way before the interests of our national team and for that matter, any other team in Scotland.

Also, our paper pushers are hopeless. The SFA should have kept the match for when it was scheduled to be played. That would have been 2 weeks into our season. Instead, they shat it and moved the fixture just in case it got in the way of the OF's champions' league aspirations.

Until we get through to another championship again, we won't get back that passion there used to be for the national side when I was growing up. We've got a generation of children who have either never seen the national team competing in a major finals or it is not within their living memory.That's who needs to be inspired for future progression of the game in the country.

I fear that the Scottish team is seen as a burden. An obligation that administrators and some players take on as if they are doing a favour. The usual debates about who you support more, Scotland or Hibs or the other debates about scrapping the Scotland team and the Scottish cringe are an example of the fact that that is also somehow reflected in the fans.

Tell a Dane or a Swede or a Croat, for example, that their domestic league is pretty stale and they will likely agree with you. Most will probably have a premiership team they look out for. When was the last time a Swedish or Danish side were in the latter stages of the Champions league? Yet these teams have qualified for World Cups and European Championships over the past couple of decades, been in the knock out stages and one has actually won silverware. It has nothing to do with size of country or influence etc, but it's what you do with the team....

Tell them that you cant stand your national team, won't support it or love your club more than your country, I think most of them will think you're clueless. It is unfortunately, the Scottish condition. Many people are just too embarrassed or ambivalent about Scotland to care, expect better or to aspire for more.

We do it to ourselves. :grr::grr::grr:

Rant over. :greengrin

Hibby_Ed
13-08-2009, 05:32 PM
That game reminded me why I take no interest in Scotland's International fixtures. The ref was good at the start booking so early on in Norway, but game turned into a bit of a joke at the end. Individualy players are good, but there's not a sense of 'togetherness' in the team, not like I remeber seeing when we were in the 1998 WC.

Hermit Crab
14-08-2009, 10:10 AM
The players are fine. We have some very good players at our disposal and increasing numbers are plying their trade down south in various leagues which your average punter on here thinks are eminently more superior to our own. One of the main problems is that we are limited by ambition. Butcher and Burley are not the management team we need. Lions led by donkeys and all that.

The perennial problem in Scottish football is the organisation that runs it and is responsible for the national team. The interests of the OF are put a long way before the interests of our national team and for that matter, any other team in Scotland.

Also, our paper pushers are hopeless. The SFA should have kept the match for when it was scheduled to be played. That would have been 2 weeks into our season. Instead, they shat it and moved the fixture just in case it got in the way of the OF's champions' league aspirations.

Until we get through to another championship again, we won't get back that passion there used to be for the national side when I was growing up. We've got a generation of children who have either never seen the national team competing in a major finals or it is not within their living memory.That's who needs to be inspired for future progression of the game in the country.

I fear that the Scottish team is seen as a burden. An obligation that administrators and some players take on as if they are doing a favour. The usual debates about who you support more, Scotland or Hibs or the other debates about scrapping the Scotland team and the Scottish cringe are an example of the fact that that is also somehow reflected in the fans.

Tell a Dane or a Swede or a Croat, for example, that their domestic league is pretty stale and they will likely agree with you. Most will probably have a premiership team they look out for. When was the last time a Swedish or Danish side were in the latter stages of the Champions league? Yet these teams have qualified for World Cups and European Championships over the past couple of decades, been in the knock out stages and one has actually won silverware. It has nothing to do with size of country or influence etc, but it's what you do with the team....

Tell them that you cant stand your national team, won't support it or love your club more than your country, I think most of them will think you're clueless. It is unfortunately, the Scottish condition. Many people are just too embarrassed or ambivalent about Scotland to care, expect better or to aspire for more.

We do it to ourselves. :grr::grr::grr:

Rant over. :greengrin

Thats a cracking rant by the way! :thumbsup:

Just Jimmy
14-08-2009, 10:47 AM
The players are fine. We have some very good players at our disposal and increasing numbers are plying their trade down south in various leagues which your average punter on here thinks are eminently more superior to our own. One of the main problems is that we are limited by ambition. Butcher and Burley are not the management team we need. Lions led by donkeys and all that.

The perennial problem in Scottish football is the organisation that runs it and is responsible for the national team. The interests of the OF are put a long way before the interests of our national team and for that matter, any other team in Scotland.

Also, our paper pushers are hopeless. The SFA should have kept the match for when it was scheduled to be played. That would have been 2 weeks into our season. Instead, they shat it and moved the fixture just in case it got in the way of the OF's champions' league aspirations.

Until we get through to another championship again, we won't get back that passion there used to be for the national side when I was growing up. We've got a generation of children who have either never seen the national team competing in a major finals or it is not within their living memory.That's who needs to be inspired for future progression of the game in the country.

I fear that the Scottish team is seen as a burden. An obligation that administrators and some players take on as if they are doing a favour. The usual debates about who you support more, Scotland or Hibs or the other debates about scrapping the Scotland team and the Scottish cringe are an example of the fact that that is also somehow reflected in the fans.

Tell a Dane or a Swede or a Croat, for example, that their domestic league is pretty stale and they will likely agree with you. Most will probably have a premiership team they look out for. When was the last time a Swedish or Danish side were in the latter stages of the Champions league? Yet these teams have qualified for World Cups and European Championships over the past couple of decades, been in the knock out stages and one has actually won silverware. It has nothing to do with size of country or influence etc, but it's what you do with the team....

Tell them that you cant stand your national team, won't support it or love your club more than your country, I think most of them will think you're clueless. It is unfortunately, the Scottish condition. Many people are just too embarrassed or ambivalent about Scotland to care, expect better or to aspire for more.

We do it to ourselves. :grr::grr::grr:

Rant over. :greengrin

Excellent post.