New Identities

[Sylar]

In the case of Baby Peter, the "parents" responsible for his mistreatment and untimely death have been named, and imprisoned (link here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8194235.stm)). Upon their release, the story outlines plans for them to be given new identities, to safeguard them from any attempts at retribution.

Perhaps the most famous case of new identities, were Jon Venebles and Robert Thomson, following their release from prison after murdering James Bulger. The case of Mary Bell is another.

People are always going to be able to identify people, particularly when prison sentences are short enough (as in the Baby P story). The BBC have published their mugshots (and the "mother" is so hideously unforgettable...) and they're not going to change much in 12 or 5 years.

I won't be surprised if these "parents" are forced to hide for the rest of their lives upon their release, and I've utterly no sympathy with them, truth be told.

[Jay]

In the case of Baby Peter, the "parents" responsible for his mistreatment and untimely death have been named, and imprisoned (link here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8194235.stm)). Upon their release, the story outlines plans for them to be given new identities, to safeguard them from any attempts at retribution.

Perhaps the most famous case of new identities, were Jon Venebles and Robert Thomson, following their release from prison after murdering James Bulger. The case of Mary Bell is another.

People are always going to be able to identify people, particularly when prison sentences are short enough (as in the Baby P story). The BBC have published their mugshots (and the "mother" is so hideously unforgettable...) and they're not going to change much in 12 or 5 years.

I won't be surprised if these "parents" are forced to hide for the rest of their lives upon their release, and I've utterly no sympathy with them, truth be told.

These two should never need new identities as they should never be allowed out of prison. If they do get out hell mend them, they can take a bit of what they eeked out. Maybe a Rottweiller or two to start with like they did to that wee boy.

[blaikie]

In the case of Baby Peter, the "parents" responsible for his mistreatment and untimely death have been named, and imprisoned (link here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8194235.stm)). Upon their release, the story outlines plans for them to be given new identities, to safeguard them from any attempts at retribution.

Perhaps the most famous case of new identities, were Jon Venebles and Robert Thomson, following their release from prison after murdering James Bulger. The case of Mary Bell is another.

People are always going to be able to identify people, particularly when prison sentences are short enough (as in the Baby P story). The BBC have published their mugshots (and the "mother" is so hideously unforgettable...) and they're not going to change much in 12 or 5 years.

I won't be surprised if these "parents" are forced to hide for the rest of their lives upon their release, and I've utterly no sympathy with them, truth be told.
Tbh I would give them new identities .... with my boot. I seen the story today in the metro and the pathetic letter the "mother" wrote. Words cant describe how evil they are :bitchy:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Tbh I would give them new identities .... with my boot. I seen the story today in the metro and the pathetic letter the "mother" wrote. Words cant describe how evil they are :bitchy:

Unfortunately life is never as straightforward as young men believe. I can imagine how angry you feel, but if you use your "boot" to do the talking, you are no better than them.

The only difference is the hypocrisy of your violence. You seem to think that if you are on the side of "right" it is OK to inflict pain.

I don't know what's worse, evil sadistic people who do it out of ignorance, or sadistic people who actually believe what they are doing is right.

[Jay]

Unfortunately life is never as straightforward as young men believe. I can imagine how angry you feel, but if you use your "boot" to do the talking, you are no better than them.

The only difference is the hypocrisy of your violence. You seem to think that if you are on the side of "right" it is OK to inflict pain.

I don't know what's worse, evil sadistic people who do it out of ignorance, or sadistic people who actually believe what they are doing is right.

Honestly FR I dont know if you meant it to come across like that but I have to say its the most condascending post I have read on .net.

[Judas Iscariot]

These two should never need new identities as they should never be allowed out of prison. If they do get out hell mend them, they can take a bit of what they eeked out. Maybe a Rottweiller or two to start with like they did to that wee boy.

:agree:


Honestly FR I dont know if you meant it to come across like that but I have to say its the most condascending post I have read on .net.

:agree:


It takes a lot to sicken me but reading what happened to that poor little boy sickened me to the stomach :bitchy:

The "people" that did that to him should be destroyed, pure and simple!

It's so so infuriating thinking about the fact these cretins might not spend the rest of their existence in jail..

On the other hand that way the public might get a chance to see to them!!

How many people out there would do time just to have the chance at getting a hold of the sickos..

[Phil D. Rolls]

Honestly FR I dont know if you meant it to come across like that but I have to say its the most condascending post I have read on .net.

I can't possibly agree with someone who thinks it is right to go out and give someone a kicking, whatever it is they think justifies it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree:

How many people out there would do time just to have the chance at getting a hold of the sickos..

It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. It would justify violence in their minds, and make us the same as them. We need to bring more than raw emotion to the situation to find a solution, which I think is what everyone wants - that this shouldn't happen again.

[Woody1985]

They deserve every lickin they get.

Did anyone else think that the mum was a man when they first seen the pictures? I never knew until about 8 hours after when I seen another news report that said the mum was on the left!

[Jay]

I can't possibly agree with someone who thinks it is right to go out and give someone a kicking, whatever it is they think justifies it.

FR it wasn't your opinion that irked me it was the way you mentioned Blaikies age (young men) and treated him like a young fool. I am obviously a middle aged female who had intimated the same things as Blaikie did before him yet you chose to ignore that.

Totally condascending in my opinion.

You are more than entitled to think these people have human rights but in my opinion prolonged torture of an infant to the point of breaking his back and letting him suffer that for days made them give up any rights to be called human.

[Saorsa]

In the case of Baby Peter, the "parents" responsible for his mistreatment and untimely death have been named, and imprisoned (link here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8194235.stm)). Upon their release, the story outlines plans for them to be given new identities, to safeguard them from any attempts at retribution.

Perhaps the most famous case of new identities, were Jon Venebles and Robert Thomson, following their release from prison after murdering James Bulger. The case of Mary Bell is another.

People are always going to be able to identify people, particularly when prison sentences are short enough (as in the Baby P story). The BBC have published their mugshots (and the "mother" is so hideously unforgettable...) and they're not going to change much in 12 or 5 years.

I won't be surprised if these "parents" are forced to hide for the rest of their lives upon their release, and I've utterly no sympathy with them, truth be told.It's a disgrace that money should be wasted protecting low life s*um like them, the should never see the light of day again. I hope they get the crap kicked out of them.

[blaikie]

Unfortunately life is never as straightforward as young men believe. I can imagine how angry you feel, but if you use your "boot" to do the talking, you are no better than them.

The only difference is the hypocrisy of your violence. You seem to think that if you are on the side of "right" it is OK to inflict pain.

I don't know what's worse, evil sadistic people who do it out of ignorance, or sadistic people who actually believe what they are doing is right.
I would never use violence to resolve any situation. I never have and never will, The reference to me using my "boot" is nothing more than me venting my anger at these creatures getting a new identity. But I cant see why locking them up giving them 3 meals per day and still having some quality of life is going to make any difference.

Its controversial but people on sites like facebook etc are calling for the death sentence. Not something I tend to agree with, But hey that's opinions.

Oh and just because I may be a "young man" Doesn't mean my opinion is less valid than someone else. :cool2:

[ArabHibee]

Honestly FR I dont know if you meant it to come across like that but I have to say its the most condascending post I have read on .net.

"Condascending" and "Filled Rolls"? Never!!

I really do think you're on a 'hiding' to nowhere on this thread FR. As much as you like to be PC, I can't think of one good reason how you could defend any of the 3 involved in this case and why they should still be breathing. What they did to that laddie is utterly disgusting. And then to find out that the 2 brothers battered their granny to try and get her to change her will a few years ago. And I believe that the female (I wouldn't even give her the credibility of calling her a mother) wasn't the silly stupid lassie that most people possibly thought, she did have a brain in her head but chose not to use it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

FR it wasn't your opinion that irked me it was the way you mentioned Blaikies age (young men) and treated him like a young fool. I am obviously a middle aged female who had intimated the same things as Blaikie did before him yet you chose to ignore that.

Totally condascending in my opinion.

You are more than entitled to think these people have human rights but in my opinion prolonged torture of an infant to the point of breaking his back and letting him suffer that for days made them give up any rights to be called human.

1. I didn't read your post.
2. Having read it I don't think you were posturing in how you would punish them.
3. I tried hard not to patronise, but at the end of the day I felt he was just being a silly boy, and I thought the fairest thing was just to say so.
4. I was once a silly boy too.

I despise these people, but I don't know their full story. It seems to me that only the baddest, or the maddest would do these things, and as such I don't think violently punishing them would make any difference to the next couple who end up doing this.

I'd much rather focus on how we can detect these things and what is wrong with the systems we have. I have decided to make a donation to Children 1st, instead of getting angry. My anger won't achieve anything, the donation might.

[Phil D. Rolls]

"Condascending" and "Filled Rolls"? Never!!

I really do think you're on a 'hiding' to nowhere on this thread FR. As much as you like to be PC, I can't think of one good reason how you could defend any of the 3 involved in this case and why they should still be breathing. What they did to that laddie is utterly disgusting. And then to find out that the 2 brothers battered their granny to try and get her to change her will a few years ago. And I believe that the female (I wouldn't even give her the credibility of calling her a mother) wasn't the silly stupid lassie that most people possibly thought, she did have a brain in her head but chose not to use it.

I'm not defending them, I'm saying that violence isn't the answer. It achieves nothing, other than lowering us to the level of these ****. Their cruelty is unspeakable, and why people want to recount every gory detail to each other is beyond me.

As for PC, that seems to be the accusation that is levelled at anyone who dares to speak against the majority. Heretic, and witch is what they used to say.

It's got nothing to do with what's politically correct. It's got to do with how I want to think as a human. What would Jesus have done - you'll be saying HE was PC next.

I realise I am on a hiding to nothing, but I also know there are many people who would agree with me. They aren't all sandal wearing beardies, and lesbians in wheelchairs either.

[Jay]

1. I didn't read your post.
2. Having read it I don't think you were posturing in how you would punish them.
3. I tried hard not to patronise, but at the end of the day I felt he was just being a silly boy, and I thought the fairest thing was just to say so.
4. I was once a silly boy too.

I despise these people, but I don't know their full story. It seems to me that only the baddest, or the maddest would do these things, and as such I don't think violently punishing them would make any difference to the next couple who end up doing this.

I'd much rather focus on how we can detect these things and what is wrong with the systems we have. I have decided to make a donation to Children 1st, instead of getting angry. My anger won't achieve anything, the donation might.

FR calling an 18 year old a silly boy is very patronising and condascending. As Blaikie said his age doesn't make his opinoin less valid.

Anyway its way off topic.......................... feed them to the sharks I say, one body part at a time.

[Phil D. Rolls]

FR calling an 18 year old a silly boy is very patronising and condascending. As Blaikie said his age doesn't make his opinoin less valid.

Anyway its way off topic.......................... feed them to the sharks I say, one body part at a time.


Fair enough, I'd like to think that when he gets older he'll see that giving them a kicking isn't the best way forward. Age doesn't make his opinion less valid - it has no validity at all.

Your outing to Deep Sea World on the other hand might just win the popular vote. :devil:

[Jay]

Fair enough, I'd like to think that when he gets older he'll see that giving them a kicking isn't the best way forward. Age doesn't make his opinion less valid - it has no validity at all.

Your outing to Deep Sea World on the other hand might just win the popular vote. :devil:

FR your not taking this in are you? :rolleyes:

:greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

FR your not taking this in are you? :rolleyes:

:greengrin

Not really, I'll try again. I recognise that other people are entitled to have a different point of view to me, even if they are misguided in that view. :dunno:

I don't want this to sound patronising, all I'll say is I was exactly the same at 18, and thought there were easy solutions, now I don't. I also realise now that Blaikie wasn't being literal in what he wrote, and it was how he felt at the time.

I'm sure that none of us would want to know the sort of person who is capable of inflicting violence on another.

[MyJo]

the lowlife **** will be lucky if they survive thier prison sentences never mind sorting out idenitities for them when its over.

sharpened toothbrush handle in the neck coming thier way pretty soon i'd imagine and its far less than the ******ers deserve.

[Woody1985]

Fair enough, I'd like to think that when he gets older he'll see that giving them a kicking isn't the best way forward. Age doesn't make his opinion less valid - it has no validity at all.

Your outing to Deep Sea World on the other hand might just win the popular vote. :devil:

This is my number one issue with people who are so far to the left they forget that other opinions do count, regardless of what they might think.

I say lock them in a room with something or someone that will torture them for weeks on end before chucking some salt and hot water on their open wounds. See how they like it.

A lot of people say that violence sorts nothing, that's not my experience in life. Violence can sort a lot of things although it obviously should be a last resort.

[Phil D. Rolls]

This is my number one issue with people who are so far to the left they forget that other opinions do count, regardless of what they might think.

I say lock them in a room with something or someone that will torture them for weeks on end before chucking some salt and hot water on their open wounds. See how they like it.

A lot of people say that violence sorts nothing, that's not my experience in life. Violence can sort a lot of things although it obviously should be a last resort.

We can all think of ways to inflict cruel tortures and punishments. I'd like some proof that they would actually stop people being cruel to children though.

What concerns me is how much people who claim to be right thinking seem to enjoy talking about the punishment they would mete out. That's when I start to think that it is a thin line between legal cruelty and illegal cruelty and that some people just want an excuse.

I agree that violence can be an alternative to reason. However in this case, I'm guessing that the people who'd recieve it would just use it to justify their behaviour.

Firstly because they'd fail to see the difference between our behaviour and theirs, and secondly because they probably feel that the world has always caused them harm, and this just confirms it.

As always with these horrible crimes, people are looking for revenge rather than solutions. At least that how it seems to me.

[Sir David Gray]

Whilst not someone who usually condones violence, I can't say that, if I was a prison guard, I wouldn't turn a blind eye if someone decided to give any of them a kicking.

I've read what they did to that child and it just sickens me to the pit of my stomach, as it would any decent human being.

I don't believe in capital punishment but the three of them should rot in jail until the day they die then hopefully after that, they will rot in Hell until the end of time.

To call them evil doesn't actually do them justice.

I totally agree with Hiberni-Mum, these people should never need new identities because they should never be set free.

Why should the taxpayer have to fork out just to protect filth like that anyway? If they want new identities, they should pay for them, themselves.

[Dashing Bob S]

I agree with Falkirk that these people should never be allowed out of prison.

I agree with Filled Rolls that all the other posters who advocate violence towards these animals are just posturing or venting their spleen, (I hope they are or they're no better than the s*c*u*m they profess to detest) rather than trying to find a solution to the issue of protecting children.

I agree with Hiberni-mum that FR was patronising to Blaikie on grounds of age.

[ArabHibee]

I'm not defending them, I'm saying that violence isn't the answer. It achieves nothing, other than lowering us to the level of these ****. Their cruelty is unspeakable, and why people want to recount every gory detail to each other is beyond me.

As for PC, that seems to be the accusation that is levelled at anyone who dares to speak against the majority. Heretic, and witch is what they used to say.

It's got nothing to do with what's politically correct. It's got to do with how I want to think as a human. What would Jesus have done - you'll be saying HE was PC next.

I realise I am on a hiding to nothing, but I also know there are many people who would agree with me. They aren't all sandal wearing beardies, and lesbians in wheelchairs either.

You're right, and you could do with a good dunking! :greengrin

I really couldn't give 2 hoots what Jesus would have done, considering he never existed in the first place, but that's a whole other discussion.

I'm sure some people do agree with you but looking at the posts on this thread (at the moment) the majority agree that the 3 of them should either have a good kicking or never be released from prison, perhaps both.

[Jay]

I agree with Falkirk that these people should never be allowed out of prison.

I agree with Filled Rolls that all the other posters who advocate violence towards these animals are just posturing or venting their spleen, (I hope they are or they're no better than the s*c*u*m they profess to detest) rather than trying to find a solution to the issue of protecting children.

I agree with Hiberni-mum that FR was patronising to Blaikie on grounds of age.

I'm sorry but someone who tortures an infant over a prolonged period and to the extent they did cannot be put in the same bracket as a person who then gives them a doing. That person is no saint and shouldn't be put on a pedestal but neither should they be classed the same as those creatures.

I honestly hand on heart couldn't say given the opportunity I would walk away. I dont know what I would do if the truth be told and I am not in the slightest bit violent.

[Billie Jo]

We can all think of ways to inflict cruel tortures and punishments. I'd like some proof that they would actually stop people being cruel to children though.

What concerns me is how much people who claim to be right thinking seem to enjoy talking about the punishment they would mete out. That's when I start to think that it is a thin line between legal cruelty and illegal cruelty and that some people just want an excuse.

I agree that violence can be an alternative to reason. However in this case, I'm guessing that the people who'd recieve it would just use it to justify their behaviour.

Firstly because they'd fail to see the difference between our behaviour and theirs, and secondly because they probably feel that the world has always caused them harm, and this just confirms it.

As always with these horrible crimes, people are looking for revenge rather than solutions. At least that how it seems to me.

Ok, what should we do with them, rehabilitate them? Seriously, they should never be released.

One of the killers of James Bulger has a new identity and a new family :bitchy:

Imagine knowing your dad is a Child Killer, nah keep the locked up forever. IMHO

[Sir David Gray]

I'm sorry but someone who tortures an infant over a prolonged period and to the extent they did cannot be put in the same bracket as a person who then gives them a doing. That person is no saint and shouldn't be put on a pedestal but neither should they be classed the same as those creatures.

I honestly hand on heart couldn't say given the opportunity I would walk away. I dont know what I would do if the truth be told and I am not in the slightest bit violent.

Exactly.

It might not be right but I really don't know how anyone can say that people who give child killers a kicking are as bad as the child killers themselves. :confused:

If someone did to my child, what these people did to Peter Connelly, I can quite honestly and openly say that I would gladly batter the living daylights out of them.

Just like Hiberni-mum, I am also not a violent person in the slightest but as far as I'm concerned, anyone who is prepared to do something like that to a small, defenceless child deserves everything that they get.

I'm sure I am in the majority on this one and most parents would be prepared to do the very same thing.

[Just Jimmy]

As always with these horrible crimes, people are looking for revenge rather than solutions. At least that how it seems to me.

I was going to post similar, but decided to read on first. I agree here. I think it depends on your personal view point on 'justice' or 'punishment'.

Is it Bentham's idea of 'the greatest good for the greatest number'? or simply to gain, as you say, revenge?

I personally think that human nature will always want to correct what is wronged, however, seeking revenge purely, is counter productive. Certainly kicking seven shades out of one of these people may make you feel better, but it doesn't achieve anything. Physical pain heals and short of killing how far do you really go to make a point?

I'm not for the death penalty, nor against it. I've studied the justice system from a sociological perspective for the last four years but I don't have the answers. I don't think I ever will either. I cannot even confess to agreeing with what you say one hundred per cent either. I know I'd most likely feel different if it was my nephew for example. It's easy to say yes or no until it's your situation that's particularly affected.

For this reason I think that punishment should be for the greater advantage of the victim and their family, but I do not agree that it should be retribution, rather that it should work towards closure and a healing process.

Violence with violence is not that answer, I do agree in principle.

[Jay]

I was going to post similar, but decided to read on first. I agree here. I think it depends on your personal view point on 'justice' or 'punishment'.

Is it Bentham's idea of 'the greatest good for the greatest number'? or simply to gain, as you say, revenge?

I personally think that human nature will always want to correct what is wronged, however, seeking revenge purely, is counter productive. Certainly kicking seven shades out of one of these people may make you feel better, but it doesn't achieve anything. Physical pain heals and short of killing how far do you really go to make a point?

I'm not for the death penalty, nor against it. I've studied the justice system from a sociological perspective for the last four years but I don't have the answers. I don't think I ever will either. I cannot even confess to agreeing with what you say one hundred per cent either. I know I'd most likely feel different if it was my nephew for example. It's easy to say yes or no until it's your situation that's particularly affected.

For this reason I think that punishment should be for the greater advantage of the victim and their family, but I do not agree that it should be retribution, rather that it should work towards closure and a healing process.Violence with violence is not that answer, I do agree in principle.

How does that work when the victim is dead and the family were the ones that did it? Closure?? The baby is dead how much closure do they want? Healing? Who is to be healed - surely not the parents? Its too late for that wee boy.

Also - Peters physical pain didn't heal, he lived for 17 months in pain because of those creatures. In the end they killed him, the only good thing to come to that baby from the day he was born was death as it meant the end of the pain and torture.

Sometimes, in a few cases, there is nothing wrong with a bit of revenge for the victim. This is one case I wouldn't bat an eyelid at.

[McSwanky]

Sometimes, in a few cases, there is nothing wrong with a bit of revenge for the victim. This is one case I wouldn't bat an eyelid at.

Having read through the whole thread I still haven't seen a satisfactory answer as to what this will achieve. What good will it do the victim, alive or dead?

[Jay]

Having read through the whole thread I still haven't seen a satisfactory answer as to what this will achieve. What good will it do the victim, alive or dead?

Honestly? I dont know.

I am not saying that someone should do it I am saying it wouldn't bother me if they did and in my opinion you cant put that person in the same box as the things that tortured baby Peter.

Is it justice to that wee boy that they serve a sentence, which we all know is not the hardest thing in the world to do, then get on with their lives? She could get pregnant again! I cant remember if its the stepdad or his brother but one of them raped a 2 year old. They should never be allowed near society again. If this ridiculous judcial system we have allows them back out into the world them hell mend them. If they get a doing or worse in prison so what?

[Just Jimmy]

How does that work when the victim is dead and the family were the ones that did it? Closure?? The baby is dead how much closure do they want? Healing? Who is to be healed - surely not the parents? Its too late for that wee boy.

Also - Peters physical pain didn't heal, he lived for 17 months in pain because of those creatures. In the end they killed him, the only good thing to come to that baby from the day he was born was death as it meant the end of the pain and torture.

Sometimes, in a few cases, there is nothing wrong with a bit of revenge for the victim. This is one case I wouldn't bat an eyelid at.

Let's just execute them then?

They committed horrible crimes, of course they did. It sickens me as well but sometimes society needs to look past they hysteria and hang ringing guilt and look for answers. They might not be there but it shouldn't stop us looking.

This call for 'revenge' solves nothing. The child still suffered, he's still dead, and while that is a tragedy, nothing will realistically be achieved by making them suffer.

The long and the short of it is; society failed the kid. Not just his 'family' (I hesitate to call them that). His memory would be better served by putting in place a system so this kind of thing cannot be allowed to happen again.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You're right, and you could do with a good dunking! :greengrin

I really couldn't give 2 hoots what Jesus would have done, considering he never existed in the first place, but that's a whole other discussion.

I'm sure some people do agree with you but looking at the posts on this thread (at the moment) the majority agree that the 3 of them should either have a good kicking or never be released from prison, perhaps both.

Prison, yes, kicking, no - I think most people can tell the difference.


Ok, what should we do with them, rehabilitate them? Seriously, they should never be released.

One of the killers of James Bulger has a new identity and a new family :bitchy:

Imagine knowing your dad is a Child Killer, nah keep the locked up forever. IMHO

Jamie Bulger's killers were wee kids that played a game that got out of hand. Sickening though it was, I don't think you can hold them wholly responsible. What sickened me at the time of this tragedy was the men who were battering the prison van, and the women who would have torn these two children to shreds.


I am still waiting for an answer to what using violence on another human is supposed to achieve: will it stop others (I don't think so, as you must be beyond reason to commit these crimes); will it bring back the deceased; will it remove the pain and suffering; will it allow us to feel better for a while because we have matched the victim's pain with the perpetrators?

I think it's about our guilt. Guilt that other humans could do such a thing, and guilt that we couldn't stop it. Maybe that's where we should be focussing - how can we prevent these things. Dishing out kickings just makes us animals and solves nothing.

[Jay]

Let's just execute them then?

They committed horrible crimes, of course they did. It sickens me as well but sometimes society needs to look past they hysteria and hang ringing guilt and look for answers. They might not be there but it shouldn't stop us looking.

This call for 'revenge' solves nothing. The child still suffered, he's still dead, and while that is a tragedy, nothing will realistically be achieved by making them suffer.

The long and the short of it is; society failed the kid. Not just his 'family' (I hesitate to call them that). His memory would be better served by putting in place a system so this kind of thing cannot be allowed to happen again.

I agree that the best justice for Peter would be to make sure it doesn't happen again that would involve not just a shake up of the existing sytem but a totally new system in place and massive funding. I have my suspicions it wont happen.

Tell me, do you think a prison sentence then new identities to protect them is justice for what they did to that wee boy? Do you think its punishment enough? I dont, however it the system we have in place. What I am saying is that I wouldn't stand in the way of someone who wanted to hurt them Would you?

[Jay]

Prison, yes, kicking, no - I think most people can tell the difference.



Jamie Bulger's killers were wee kids that played a game that got out of hand. Sickening though it was, I don't think you can hold them wholly responsible. What sickened me at the time of this tragedy was the men who were battering the prison van, and the women who would have torn these two children to shreds.


I am still waiting for an answer to what using violence on another human is supposed to achieve: will it stop others (I don't think so, as you must be beyond reason to commit these crimes); will it bring back the deceased; will it remove the pain and suffering; will it allow us to feel better for a while because we have matched the victim's pain with the perpetrators?

I think it's about our guilt. Guilt that other humans could do such a thing, and guilt that we couldn't stop it. Maybe that's where we should be focussing - how can we prevent these things. Dishing out kickings just makes us animals and solves nothing.

Does a prison sentence and new identities do any of this? Nope.

[BravestHibs]

Fair enough, I'd like to think that when he gets older he'll see that giving them a kicking isn't the best way forward. Age doesn't make his opinion less valid - it has no validity at all.

Your outing to Deep Sea World on the other hand might just win the popular vote. :devil:

FR is incredibly condescending, in pretty much every post he writes, however in this case I agree with him. Although not for the same reason.

I've seen alot of posters on here, some of which are now advocating a beating for these three, who want to distance themselves from countries which in their view, and rightly so, perpetrate human rights abuses, I recall a thread in which people were terrified of Sharia law bleeding into our society for example, these same people now want people to be put in a room and tortured. This in my view is the real hypocracy. The fact that we don't torture (at least not in this country) are the very human rights which give us the moral authority to step in when other countries are flagrantly violating their citizens. If we were to sanction this type of retribution it would be one step down a very slippery slope indeed.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Does a prison sentence and new identities do any of this? Nope.

Well where do we take it? Do we stoop to their level and punish them using violence, or do we just try to forget they ever existed?

There must be a reason why such people are imprisoned, rather than torn to pieces by the angry mob.

[Dashing Bob S]

I'm sorry but someone who tortures an infant over a prolonged period and to the extent they did cannot be put in the same bracket as a person who then gives them a doing. That person is no saint and shouldn't be put on a pedestal but neither should they be classed the same as those creatures.

I honestly hand on heart couldn't say given the opportunity I would walk away. I dont know what I would do if the truth be told and I am not in the slightest bit violent.

So, you advocate torturing them in the same manner they tortured that child. Who then, is going to do this torturing on all our behalf? A sane, normal, sentient, compassionate human being?

Don't think so.

You go down to their level and they have won. Pure and simple.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Whilst not someone who usually condones violence, I can't say that, if I was a prison guard, I wouldn't turn a blind eye if someone decided to give any of them a kicking.

I've read what they did to that child and it just sickens me to the pit of my stomach, as it would any decent human being.

I don't believe in capital punishment but the three of them should rot in jail until the day they die then hopefully after that, they will rot in Hell until the end of time.

To call them evil doesn't actually do them justice.

I totally agree with Hiberni-Mum, these people should never need new identities because they should never be set free.

Why should the taxpayer have to fork out just to protect filth like that anyway? If they want new identities, they should pay for them, themselves.

Aren't you meant to be a Christian, and place great value on forgiveness?


You're right, and you could do with a good dunking! :greengrin

I really couldn't give 2 hoots what Jesus would have done, considering he never existed in the first place, but that's a whole other discussion.

I'm sure some people do agree with you but looking at the posts on this thread (at the moment) the majority agree that the 3 of them should either have a good kicking or never be released from prison, perhaps both.

Erm, yeah he did...


Ok, what should we do with them, rehabilitate them? Seriously, they should never be released.

One of the killers of James Bulger has a new identity and a new family :bitchy:

Imagine knowing your dad is a Child Killer, nah keep the locked up forever. IMHO

They were kids ffs, it's an entirely different issue.

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------


Does a prison sentence and new identities do any of this? Nope.

But they're not really meant to...

[Jay]

FR is incredibly condescending, in pretty much every post he writes, however in this case I agree with him. Although not for the same reason.

I've seen alot of posters on here, some of which are now advocating a beating for these three, who want to distance themselves from countries which in their view, and rightly so, perpetrate human rights abuses, I recall a thread in which people were terrified of Sharia law bleeding into our society for example, these same people now want people to be put in a room and tortured. This in my view is the real hypocracy. The fact that we don't torture (at least not in this country) are the very human rights which give us the moral authority to step in when other countries are flagrantly violating their citizens. If we were to sanction this type of retribution it would be one step down a very slippery slope indeed.

Just wait a minute! Where on this thread does anybody say that?

[Jay]

Well where do we take it? Do we stoop to their level and punish them using violence, or do we just try to forget they ever existed?

There must be a reason why such people are imprisoned, rather than torn to pieces by the angry mob.


So, you advocate torturing them in the same manner they tortured that child. Who then, is going to do this torturing on all our behalf? A sane, normal, sentient, compassionate human being?

Don't think so.

You go down to their level and they have won. Pure and simple.

Did I say that we as a society should punish them using violence? Did I say at any point that we should torture them??

No! This thread seems to be some people completely twisting what others (mainly me) are saying to make their own point appear more valid.

What my point was as I have said was that when in prison or if they are released at some point I wouldn't bat an eyelid if they got a kicking and I certainly wouldn't step in the way of someone wanting to do it. I also said that if I came eye to eye with them I cant 100% say how I would react at the time.

And to that point I will end my part in the discussion as there is no reason to carry it forward.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Just wait a minute! Where on this thread does anybody say that?

Erm...


This is my number one issue with people who are so far to the left they forget that other opinions do count, regardless of what they might think.

I say lock them in a room with something or someone that will torture them for weeks on end before chucking some salt and hot water on their open wounds. See how they like it.

A lot of people say that violence sorts nothing, that's not my experience in life. Violence can sort a lot of things although it obviously should be a last resort.

[Jay]

Erm...

I think you missed the point of that post (or maybe I did?) If it was me then I appologise for saying that no one said that although actually thinking they didn't meant it.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I think you missed the point of that post (or maybe I did?) If it was me then I appologise for saying that no one said that although actually thinking they didn't meant it.

Of which post? Woody's?

[Jay]

Of which post? Woody's?

yes

I took it after reading the first sentence of his post that it was typed sarcastically. OTT to make his point.

[Phil D. Rolls]

yes

I took it after reading the first sentence of his post that it was typed sarcastically. OTT to make his point.

How can you tell when someone is being sarcastic or not? If someone writes something that can be taken two ways, they can't blame the other person for misunderstanding what they meant.

[LiverpoolHibs]

yes

I took it after reading the first sentence of his post that it was typed sarcastically. OTT to make his point.

Oh right, fair enough if true. I'm sure he'll clarify at some point.

I actually agree with the final part of his post, incidentally. Just not when applied to situations such as this.

[marinello59]

Just a casual observation but perhaps the person who actually typed the "torture" remark should be the one to be questioned on it?:hnetinq:

[Jay]

How can you tell when someone is being sarcastic or not? If someone writes something that can be taken two ways, they can't blame the other person for misunderstanding what they meant.

Do you know what FR sometimes I think you post purely for reaction with your big wooden spoon. You know exactly what the answer to this is.


Oh right, fair enough if true. I'm sure he'll clarify at some point.

I actually agree with the final part of his post, incidentally. Just not when applied to situations such as this.

Fair enough. As I said it was only my interpretation of what was typed.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Do you know what FR sometimes I think you post purely for reaction with your big wooden spoon. You know exactly what the answer to this is.

I do a lot of the time, somebody once said I throw a hand grenade into the room and step back to watch the reaction. That's fair comment. This thread though is getting pretty sensitive, and my last post was a genuine question.

Sometimes, I try to be too subtle or ironic, and people get the wrong end of the stick. When I re-read what I've posted I can see that the words weren't exactly what I wanted to put across.

In the same way, I read stuff which might be interpreted one way or another. I'm off for a long rest, as it seems the more I type the deeper a hole I am digging.

To set the record straight, my heart says "let these people suffer for what they did to that child", but my head says "it won't achieve anything other than making me the same as them, if I support torture".

[Jay]

I do a lot of the time, somebody once said I throw a hand grenade into the room and step back to watch the reaction. That's fair comment. This thread though is getting pretty sensitive, and my last post was a genuine question.

Sometimes, I try to be too subtle or ironic, and people get the wrong end of the stick. When I re-read what I've posted I can see that the words weren't exactly what I wanted to put across.

In the same way, I read stuff which might be interpreted one way or another. I'm off for a long rest, as it seems the more I type the deeper a hole I am digging.

To set the record straight, my heart says "let these people suffer for what they did to that child", but my head says "it won't achieve anything other than making me the same as them, if I support torture".

I apologise FR if this thread got too sensitive. Its a sensitive subject and I suppose it couldn't be avoided. It seems that I think some of my points got twisted and you think people misinterpret posts.

Its just a shame I suppose that people cant have a debate/discussion without that happening as its always good to see others opinions and slants on things (in my opinion :greengrin)

[Phil D. Rolls]

I apologise FR if this thread got too sensitive. Its a sensitive subject and I suppose it couldn't be avoided. It seems that I think some of my points got twisted and you think people misinterpret posts.

Its just a shame I suppose that people cant have a debate/discussion without that happening as its always good to see others opinions and slants on things (in my opinion :greengrin)

An emotive issue like this is always going to get heated. :agree:

[BravestHibs]

Just wait a minute! Where on this thread does anybody say that?

"Maybe a Rottweiller or two to start with like they did to that wee boy."

I'm pretty sure that having them savaged by a rottweiller would qualify as torture.

[Jay]

"Maybe a Rottweiller or two to start with like they did to that wee boy."

I'm pretty sure that having them savaged by a rottweiller would qualify as torture.

Whatever. I've said more than my piece on this thread and am going round in circles.

Take from it what you wish remembering I didn't post on the thread you mentioned in that post.

[BravestHibs]

Whatever. I've said more than my piece on this thread and am going round in circles.

Take from it what you wish remembering I didn't post on the thread you mentioned in that post.

????

[marinello59]

????

The Sharia law thread.

[Sir David Gray]

Aren't you meant to be a Christian, and place great value on forgiveness?

It is not easy being a Christian, particularly when it comes to things like this.

You are right that forgiveness is a key part to being a Christian but I am being honest when I say that I really do not think that I could find it in my heart to forgive someone if they tortured my child to the point where their body was broken, battered and bruised and when they eventually died, they were found to have had fifty separate injuries on his tiny, defenceless body.

Anyone who could forgive such a thing, is certainly a better person than me.

What I will say is, despite how evil they may be, I do believe that if they genuinely ask for forgiveness from God, they will get it.

[Hibby D]

What I will say is, despite how evil they may be, I do believe that if they genuinely ask for forgiveness from God, they will get it.

That may be so but they'll still be evil child killers who deserve to rot away the rest of their lives in jail :agree:

I'm with Jill on this - I wouldn't stand in the way of anyone wanting to level out their own punisment to Peter's killers. And I wouldn't be sorry afterwards either.

Revenge may not be the solution to the problem but it'll do me until we find one :agree:

[lyonhibs]

Those responsible for the torture/abuse of the vunerable and defenceless, whether young, cute and blond haired or old, not so cute and bald as a coot should be - frankly - killed, in a nice, slow and preferably excruciating painful way.

If that makes me a bad person, then so be it. The law-abiding majority can never "stoop to their level" before or after the event in my opinion.

Simply those that prey on the vunerable are the the filth that you and I wipe from our shoes when we get in the house.

[Allant1981]

Prison, yes, kicking, no - I think most people can tell the difference.



Jamie Bulger's killers were wee kids that played a game that got out of hand. Sickening though it was, I don't think you can hold them wholly responsible. What sickened me at the time of this tragedy was the men who were battering the prison van, and the women who would have torn these two children to shreds.


I am still waiting for an answer to what using violence on another human is supposed to achieve: will it stop others (I don't think so, as you must be beyond reason to commit these crimes); will it bring back the deceased; will it remove the pain and suffering; will it allow us to feel better for a while because we have matched the victim's pain with the perpetrators?

I think it's about our guilt. Guilt that other humans could do such a thing, and guilt that we couldn't stop it. Maybe that's where we should be focussing - how can we prevent these things. Dishing out kickings just makes us animals and solves nothing.


Are you taking the piss or you being serious here, these two lads knew exactly what they were doing and knew that it was wrong. Would you be saying this if it was your little boy taken away and murdered on a train track or beaten up every other day so much so that he was in constant pain until he died. If anyone ever done this to my little boy I would make sure they never took another breath

[lyonhibs]

Are you taking the piss or you being serious here, these two lads knew exactly what they were doing and knew that it was wrong. Would you be saying this if it was your little boy taken away and murdered on a train track or beaten up every other day so much so that he was in constant pain until he died. If anyone ever done this to my little boy I would make sure they never took another breath

They were just wee bairns though!!!!

Oh, the humanity!!!! :rolleyes:





FR, I like 99% of your posts, but this crime wasn't just wicked, but showed a level of unadulterated evil intent that has rarely - in my lifetime - been matched. The 2 guilty as sin perpetrators should never see the light of a free day again - the bairns they murdered will never have that pleasure either. Are you implying that as those 10 year olds tied a battered and bleeding James Bulger to a main railway line, they were just joking about and had no concept of right vs wrong???

[LiverpoolHibs]

Those responsible for the torture/abuse of the vunerable and defenceless, whether young, cute and blond haired or old, not so cute and bald as a coot should be - frankly - killed, in a nice, slow and preferably excruciating painful way.

If that makes me a bad person, then so be it. The law-abiding majority can never "stoop to their level" before or after the event in my opinion.

Simply those that prey on the vunerable are the the filth that you and I wipe from our shoes when we get in the house.


They were just wee bairns though!!!!

Oh, the humanity!!!! :rolleyes:

FR, I like 99% of your posts, but this crime wasn't just wicked, but showed a level of unadulterated evil intent that has rarely - in my lifetime - been matched. The 2 guilty as sin perpetrators should never see the light of a free day again - the bairns they murdered will never have that pleasure either. Are you implying that as those 10 year olds tied a battered and bleeding James Bulger to a main railway line, they were just joking about and had no concept of right vs wrong???

I think your desire to torture (or to see tortured) two ten-year-old boys slowly and excruciatingly to death - regardless of what they have done - does make you more than a bit odd, if I'm honest.

This is a brilliant article on that particular case...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/feb/06/bulger.ukcrime

[Pete]

This is a brilliant article on that particular case...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/feb/06/bulger.ukcrime

It is an interesting article, however, the main thing I take from it is that the sentences passed in the bulger case and the case of the 44 year old man simply weren't long enough. Regardless of the circumstances 7 or 8 years for such crimes simply won't do and doesn't represent a fair punishment in my opinion. Triple it and people might think justice was done.

He makes an excellent point about paedophiles. Perhaps going off on a tangent but whenever I hear of horrific cases of child molestation/rape etc... I want to find out why. Things like that fascinate me...for the reasons he states...curiosity and intellectual inquiry. It's easy to find someone guilty and let them rot but if we were to get to the bottom of the behaviour then it might actually help in the long run.
I'm not making excuses but behind a lot of these people lies a sorry tale of similar abuse...and it could be argued that the real perpetrators of the crime are those who initially inflicted the abuse/neglect/lifestyle on the individual on trial. They're simply an unchecked conduit who tragically never seeked help.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Are you taking the piss or you being serious here, these two lads knew exactly what they were doing and knew that it was wrong. Would you be saying this if it was your little boy taken away and murdered on a train track or beaten up every other day so much so that he was in constant pain until he died. If anyone ever done this to my little boy I would make sure they never took another breath

A wee bit unfair, there I think. How can a 10 year old be treated the same way as an adult. One of the things that makes them children is that they don't have the same ability to reason and understand the consequences of their actions.

Of course I wouldn't be saying it if it was my little boy. I would be too emotionally close to what had happened, and I couldn't make a reasonable, rational, sane decision.

That's why at times like this, I think it is for those with the abilty to reason as adults to use their brains and not their hearts.There's a lot of big talk about what people would do to the criminals, but I would wager that most right thinking people couldn't see it through.

[Phil D. Rolls]

They were just wee bairns though!!!!

Oh, the humanity!!!! :rolleyes:





FR, I like 99% of your posts, but this crime wasn't just wicked, but showed a level of unadulterated evil intent that has rarely - in my lifetime - been matched. The 2 guilty as sin perpetrators should never see the light of a free day again - the bairns they murdered will never have that pleasure either. Are you implying that as those 10 year olds tied a battered and bleeding James Bulger to a main railway line, they were just joking about and had no concept of right vs wrong???

Yes. By the way, they also poured paint into the kids eyes and did all sorts of other horrible things, that make you wonder what was going through their head. When you actually start to analyse the possibilited there, you have to see that they weren't thinking right.

[ArabHibee]

Yes. By the way, they also poured paint into the kids eyes and did all sorts of other horrible things, that make you wonder what was going through their head. When you actually start to analyse the possibilited there, you have to see that they weren't thinking right.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you on this one. (nothing new then! :greengrin)
They were EVIL, pure and simple EVIL. And for them to now be out of jail, with new identities, living their lives (the right that they took from Jamie Bulger) is very very wrong IMO. They should have been locked up and the key thrown away. And no matter how many people come on here spouting rehabilitation, forgiveness, they were only wee laddies, will ever make me change my mind.
I knew, at the age of 10, that you couldn't do things like that. In fact, the thought would never have entered my head.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you on this one. (nothing new then! :greengrin)
They were EVIL, pure and simple EVIL. And for them to now be out of jail, with new identities, living their lives (the right that they took from Jamie Bulger) is very very wrong IMO. They should have been locked up and the key thrown away. And no matter how many people come on here spouting rehabilitation, forgiveness, they were only wee laddies, will ever make me change my mind.
I knew, at the age of 10, that you couldn't do things like that. In fact, the thought would never have entered my head.

I think, it is easier for kids to lose the plot - as seemed to happen in this case - than for adults. I think it's accepted that they don't have the same power to reason as an adult - that's why we don't let them drive, work, vote, have credit cards etc.

I just don't think (and neither does the law) that a 10 year old can fully appreciate the consequences of their actions. That said, very few 10 year olds are murderers, so what is the variant in these boys - I agree it could just be badness.

I know I played games with other boys when I was a kid, that sometimes got out of hand. Hard though it is to stomach, their abduction of Jamie was a game to them. A game that went too far, and having broken their "toy" they destroyed it in such a devastating way.

At the end of the day though, my main thing is, you can't punish them forever if they have learned their lesson. I think that is inhuman, and after all they are being "punished" for their inhumanity (whether you accept that they had a fully developed sense of humanity themselves).

We can't have it both ways. Prison is supposed to be a corrective experience.

[ArabHibee]

I think, it is easier for kids to lose the plot - as seemed to happen in this case - than for adults. I think it's accepted that they don't have the same power to reason as an adult - that's why we don't let them drive, work, vote, have credit cards etc.

I just don't think (and neither does the law) that a 10 year old can fully appreciate the consequences of their actions. That said, very few 10 year olds are murderers, so what is the variant in these boys - I agree it could just be badness.

I know I played games with other boys when I was a kid, that sometimes got out of hand. Hard though it is to stomach, their abduction of Jamie was a game to them. A game that went too far, and having broken their "toy" they destroyed it in such a devastating way.

At the end of the day though, my main thing is, you can't punish them forever if they have learned their lesson. I think that is inhuman, and after all they are being "punished" for their inhumanity (whether you accept that they had a fully developed sense of humanity themselves).

We can't have it both ways. Prison is supposed to be a corrective experience.

TBH with you FR, if I had my way, the 2 of them would have been given lethal injections for what they did to Jamie Bulger. Why should they live when they took the life of an innocent child?

Feel similarly to the 3 in the baby Peter case as well.

[Phil D. Rolls]

TBH with you FR, if I had my way, the 2 of them would have been given lethal injections for what they did to Jamie Bulger. Why should they live when they took the life of an innocent child?

Feel similarly to the 3 in the baby Peter case as well.

I think that is totally understandable. I think I said earlier that my heart would go for one thing but my head for another.

At the end of the day, you can't forget how horrific the crimes they committed were. I read in the paper (admittedly the NOTW) that P's mother has shown no remorse whatsoever. If true (it was the NOTW as I say) that is really terrible.

There have been some horrendous cases lately, like the Shannon Matthews thing, and of course the wee boy in Dundee. I cannot understand these people and how they could do it to a child, and still expect to get off.

I think the least anyone can expect from them is remorse. If they can't show that, they maybe are inhuman.

[Allant1981]

I think, it is easier for kids to lose the plot - as seemed to happen in this case - than for adults. I think it's accepted that they don't have the same power to reason as an adult - that's why we don't let them drive, work, vote, have credit cards etc.

I just don't think (and neither does the law) that a 10 year old can fully appreciate the consequences of their actions. That said, very few 10 year olds are murderers, so what is the variant in these boys - I agree it could just be badness.

I know I played games with other boys when I was a kid, that sometimes got out of hand. Hard though it is to stomach, their abduction of Jamie was a game to them. A game that went too far, and having broken their "toy" they destroyed it in such a devastating way.

At the end of the day though, my main thing is, you can't punish them forever if they have learned their lesson. I think that is inhuman, and after all they are being "punished" for their inhumanity (whether you accept that they had a fully developed sense of humanity themselves).

We can't have it both ways. Prison is supposed to be a corrective experience.


I'm sorry but just because someone says "yip I done wrong and I have learned from this" doesnt mean they should be freed and given new identities. If they take a life then they should be in jail for life. Who knows if they mean it or not. I know if it was me I would say anything to get out. Not that I would be there in the first place

[Killiehibbie]

I think, it is easier for kids to lose the plot - as seemed to happen in this case - than for adults. I think it's accepted that they don't have the same power to reason as an adult - that's why we don't let them drive, work, vote, have credit cards etc.

I just don't think (and neither does the law) that a 10 year old can fully appreciate the consequences of their actions. That said, very few 10 year olds are murderers, so what is the variant in these boys - I agree it could just be badness.

I know I played games with other boys when I was a kid, that sometimes got out of hand. Hard though it is to stomach, their abduction of Jamie was a game to them. A game that went too far, and having broken their "toy" they destroyed it in such a devastating way.

At the end of the day though, my main thing is, you can't punish them forever if they have learned their lesson. I think that is inhuman, and after all they are being "punished" for their inhumanity (whether you accept that they had a fully developed sense of humanity themselves).

We can't have it both ways. Prison is supposed to be a corrective experience.

You can't compare games getting out of hand with killing a defenceless toddler. I would imagine the games you played were the same as most of us and somebody ended up getting a burst nose.
Prison fails most of the time in its duty to rehabilitate but that is as much to do with the individual not wanting to change.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm sorry but just because someone says "yip I done wrong and I have learned from this" doesnt mean they should be freed and given new identities. If they take a life then they should be in jail for life. Who knows if they mean it or not. I know if it was me I would say anything to get out. Not that I would be there in the first place

That is certainly a valid point of view. I know that they have checks, tests and assessments to weed out the people who are at it, but there are times when it must be difficult to know if the remorse is genuine, or just a scam to get out.

Personally, I would like to see some positive come from such a horrendous act, so if someone could change their ways and show a desire to atone for what they did, I think that would be preferable to keeping them in jail for the rest of their days.

I have never murdered, raped or tortured people. I have made mistakes, and have been grateful for a second chance. I think - especially in the case of a 10 year old - that a mistake (even one as horrendous as the Bulger murder) can be corrected.

I don't believe revenge is something that shows us in our best light. I understand the desire to take it though.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You can't compare games getting out of hand with killing a defenceless toddler. I would imagine the games you played were the same as most of us and somebody ended up getting a burst nose.
Prison fails most of the time in its duty to rehabilitate but that is as much to do with the individual not wanting to change.

I am trying to imagine how a kid can end up doing something so extreme. I remember when I was seven, a couple of boys started throwing stones at the infants at school. Before you knew it every boy in Primary Four was at it.

We were using five year olds as target practice. It was a truly apalling act, and we all ended up getting the belt for it. I know that when I was whipped in front of the teacher I realised I had done something wrong, but I also know that it took me years to understand why it was wrong.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that kids have a true sense of right or wrong, and that it can lead at its extremes to two boys treating a toddler as a plaything.

I think a child has to get a second chance.

[Killiehibbie]

I am trying to imagine how a kid can end up doing something so extreme. I remember when I was seven, a couple of boys started throwing stones at the infants at school. Before you knew it every boy in Primary Four was at it.

We were using five year olds as target practice. It was a truly apalling act, and we all ended up getting the belt for it. I know that when I was whipped in front of the teacher I realised I had done something wrong, but I also know that it took me years to understand why it was wrong.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that kids have a true sense of right or wrong, and that it can lead at its extremes to two boys treating a toddler as a plaything.

I think a child has to get a second chance.

Even though you were only 7 I bet you would've stopped long before any 5 year olds were seriously injured.

[Jay]

I am trying to imagine how a kid can end up doing something so extreme. I remember when I was seven, a couple of boys started throwing stones at the infants at school. Before you knew it every boy in Primary Four was at it.

We were using five year olds as target practice. It was a truly apalling act, and we all ended up getting the belt for it. I know that when I was whipped in front of the teacher I realised I had done something wrong, but I also know that it took me years to understand why it was wrong.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that kids have a true sense of right or wrong, and that it can lead at its extremes to two boys treating a toddler as a plaything.

I think a child has to get a second chance.

Well FR if that was the case why doesn't it happen on a more regular basis?

[Steve-O]

The reason they need new identities (which the UK taxpayer has to fund) is because of the very reactions shown on this thread.

Complain about them getting new identities all you want, but don't then say "I'd kill them if I had half the chance" or whatever because it's a total contradiction!!

[Steve-O]

A wee bit unfair, there I think. How can a 10 year old be treated the same way as an adult. One of the things that makes them children is that they don't have the same ability to reason and understand the consequences of their actions.

Of course I wouldn't be saying it if it was my little boy. I would be too emotionally close to what had happened, and I couldn't make a reasonable, rational, sane decision.

That's why at times like this, I think it is for those with the abilty to reason as adults to use their brains and not their hearts.There's a lot of big talk about what people would do to the criminals, but I would wager that most right thinking people couldn't see it through.

Agreed. I'm sick of every tragic case out there being posted on here to be followed by a deluge of posts by people saying they'd do this and they'd do that to the perpatrators, when in actual fact they wouldn't do a damn thing!

Say it's terrible, say it's sad, fair enough, but please enough of the "if I saw them in the street I'd..." pish.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Well FR if that was the case why doesn't it happen on a more regular basis?

I don't know, and I acknowledge that at least one of those two boys had badness in them that day. To take a toddler away in that way was definitely wicked. Nobody knows how things escalated from there. I still don't believe the kids understood how bad their actions were in the same way as we do.

[Allant1981]

Agreed. I'm sick of every tragic case out there being posted on here to be followed by a deluge of posts by people saying they'd do this and they'd do that to the perpatrators, when in actual fact they wouldn't do a damn thing!

Say it's terrible, say it's sad, fair enough, but please enough of the "if I saw them in the street I'd..." pish.


Believe me if someone done anything to harm my son I would make sure they didnt take another breath

[Steve-O]

Believe me if someone done anything to harm my son I would make sure they didnt take another breath

So if someone pushed your son over and he grazed his knee, you'd kill them?

Good plan.

I was referring more to people who have no connection to cases btw.

[BravestHibs]

Believe me if someone done anything to harm my son I would make sure they didnt take another breath

Even if it meant a life sentence? What about your remaining familiy?