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Mag7
10-08-2009, 12:25 PM
...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

In the same league, Charlton pulled in 16.5K, while in the Championship Cardiff drew 22K, Leicester 26K and Derby a massive 33K. I know it was the opening day of the season but you'd hardly call any of these clubs major forces in football at present.

Oh, and one other thing. If we were to lose 7-1 at home to St Mirren on Saturday as Norwich did to the mighty Colchester, would you want to see Yogi sacked? Just interested, as I wonder how close Gunn must be to losing his job after just one game. Judging by the reaction of some of the more volatile fans they want him out.

RoscoHibby
10-08-2009, 12:28 PM
Norwich is a one team city/town though is it not.

Also, with all the extra money floating about the leagues down there, the standard of play is generally better than whats on show up here.

I would've launched my book at Gunn if I was that guy aswell! :bye:

hibeeleicester
10-08-2009, 12:32 PM
Leicester are huge down here..... being the only team in Leicestershire then they have a huge support. Theres also alot of optimism having just won league one and are now back in the championship.

Leicester used to be a very good force in the premiership, i would call them a big club, bigger than hibs.

Godsahibby
10-08-2009, 12:33 PM
I also believe the catering is a lot better,

Delia makes every pie herself.

Moulin Yarns
10-08-2009, 12:33 PM
...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

In the same league, Charlton pulled in 16.5K, while in the Championship Cardiff drew 22K, Leicester 26K and Derby a massive 33K. I know it was the opening day of the season but you'd hardly call any of these clubs major forces in football at present.

Oh, and one other thing. If we were to lose 7-1 at home to St Mirren on Saturday as Norwich did to the mighty Colchester, would you want to see Yogi sacked? Just interested, as I wonder how close Gunn must be to losing his job after just one game. Judging by the reaction of some of the more volatile fans they want him out.


After Norwich v Ipswich, Norwich v Colchester is a local derby, which might account for the decent crowd. Either that or Delia had baked the pies :greengrin

.SeventyFive
10-08-2009, 12:34 PM
Well the aforementioned clubs are in towns/cities that have nothing else to do except go to the football.

This Saturday at 3pm, people can either attend the Hibs match or go to a selection of 1000's of shows in this year's Fringe for considerably cheaper, for example.

Edinburgh is an active city and sport, in general, often takes a back seat when people are deciding what to do with their weekends.

RyeSloan
10-08-2009, 12:35 PM
...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

In the same league, Charlton pulled in 16.5K, while in the Championship Cardiff drew 22K, Leicester 26K and Derby a massive 33K. I know it was the opening day of the season but you'd hardly call any of these clubs major forces in football at present.

Oh, and one other thing. If we were to lose 7-1 at home to St Mirren on Saturday as Norwich did to the mighty Colchester, would you want to see Yogi sacked? Just interested, as I wonder how close Gunn must be to losing his job after just one game. Judging by the reaction of some of the more volatile fans they want him out.

10 times the population will mean that England will always have 'big small' clubs...I presume Norwich may attract audience from wider than just the city itself or indeed may be a one club city.

Personally considering the relative staleness of Scottish football I thinks Hibs n Hearts don't do too bad...the question I would ask is how many more would turn up to see competative football or indeed EPL football. To me the more relevant analysis may be to the likes of Portsmouth (avg 19k) Blackburn (22k) Fulham (24k) Hull (never more than 18k until last season)....Hibs or Hearts could probalby quite easily have these numbers if there was actually anything for them to TRUELY get excited about. Until then we will work hard in driving up numbers but unfortunately it's a bit of an uphill struggle against the backdrop of Scottish football.

Andy74
10-08-2009, 12:36 PM
...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

In the same league, Charlton pulled in 16.5K, while in the Championship Cardiff drew 22K, Leicester 26K and Derby a massive 33K. I know it was the opening day of the season but you'd hardly call any of these clubs major forces in football at present.

Oh, and one other thing. If we were to lose 7-1 at home to St Mirren on Saturday as Norwich did to the mighty Colchester, would you want to see Yogi sacked? Just interested, as I wonder how close Gunn must be to losing his job after just one game. Judging by the reaction of some of the more volatile fans they want him out.


One team in town and also the area has little affinity with anywhere else in England so no big draw to London teams or Man U or Liverpool.

We have two teams in a fairly small city that is also mainly rugby orientated and we also have a huge percentage of people in the city and surrounding areas who follow the Old Firm.

iwasthere1972
10-08-2009, 12:42 PM
...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

In the same league, Charlton pulled in 16.5K, while in the Championship Cardiff drew 22K, Leicester 26K and Derby a massive 33K. I know it was the opening day of the season but you'd hardly call any of these clubs major forces in football at present.

Oh, and one other thing. If we were to lose 7-1 at home to St Mirren on Saturday as Norwich did to the mighty Colchester, would you want to see Yogi sacked? Just interested, as I wonder how close Gunn must be to losing his job after just one game. Judging by the reaction of some of the more volatile fans they want him out.

The simple answer could be that the Norwich area has a population of about 370K so no surprise that they can attract crowds in the region of 25K.

As for the fan(s) throwing their season tickets away at the game on Saturday. A bit over the top considering it's the first game even if they got humped 7-1. Sure I wouldn't throw mine away in the same circumstances. Brian Gunn from what I understand was not accepted by the majority of fans when he got the job and he could face an early exit from Carrow Road if they don't pick up from Saturday.

Alicky Ranks
10-08-2009, 12:48 PM
The simple answer could be that the Norwich area has a population of about 370K so no surprise that they can attract crowds in the region of 25K.

As for the fan(s) throwing their season tickets away at the game on Saturday. A bit over the top considering it's the first game even if they got humped 7-1. Sure I wouldn't throw mine away in the same circumstances. Brian Gunn from what I understand was not accepted by the majority of fans when he got the job and he could face an early exit from Carrow Road if they don't pick up from Saturday.

I thought Gunn was a bit of a legend as a Norwich player given his long association with the club? Or is he just not rated as a coach?

If we lose 7-1 on Saturday I'll be calling for Yogi's head for sure!

ChilliEater
10-08-2009, 12:56 PM
I taught at a school in Ipswich for a couple of years and, while there were a few followers of the London clubs and the odd Man U or Liverpool fan, the vast majority of the kids supported Ipswich, with many of them having season tickets.

I also taught in Dunfermline for a year and would estimate 90% or more of the kids supported the Huns, with a handful of Pars fans and the odd one or two following Hibs, the Yams or Celtic.

Make of that what you will.

hibsdaft
10-08-2009, 01:03 PM
Norwich are the only professional club in Norfolk, an area with a population of 840,000.

lapsedhibee
10-08-2009, 01:10 PM
Shirley Shaun Lawson's the only person who can answer such a question fully? :dunno: What happened to him?

Dashing Bob S
10-08-2009, 01:13 PM
Given his Norwich-Edinburgh connections, it's a shame that Shaun Lawson's been barred from this board. We'd have all benefited greatly from a seven-page sociological treatise on this matter.

--------
10-08-2009, 01:22 PM
Given his Norwich-Edinburgh connections, it's a shame that Shaun Lawson's been barred from this board. We'd have all benefited greatly from a seven-page sociological treatise on this matter.


I agree. The intellectual tone of this website has deteriorated sadly since poor Shaun got the old heave-ho.

Still, our loss is Keechback's gain.

I believe he's become quite a pet over there these days. :devil:

jgl07
10-08-2009, 01:28 PM
I agree. The intellectual tone of this website has deteriorated sadly since poor Shaun got the old heave-ho.

Still, our loss is Keechback's gain.

I believe he's become quite a pet over there these days. :devil:
Yes he has some sort of obscure quote in his signature relating to an incident involving Pat McGinlay.

How sad for an Oxford resident Norwich City supporter to dredge up some dirt on a player who left Hibs eight or nine years ago so that he can suck up to the kickback 'missing links'.

blackpoolhibs
10-08-2009, 01:29 PM
It seems Steven Hughes may have made a little bit of a mistake.:wink:

jacomo
10-08-2009, 01:36 PM
Well, seeing as no one else has, I'm gonna blame the Old Firm and their legion of sofa-dwelling plastic supporters.

:grr:

dirtydirk
10-08-2009, 01:36 PM
...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

In the same league, Charlton pulled in 16.5K, while in the Championship Cardiff drew 22K, Leicester 26K and Derby a massive 33K. I know it was the opening day of the season but you'd hardly call any of these clubs major forces in football at present.

Oh, and one other thing. If we were to lose 7-1 at home to St Mirren on Saturday as Norwich did to the mighty Colchester, would you want to see Yogi sacked? Just interested, as I wonder how close Gunn must be to losing his job after just one game. Judging by the reaction of some of the more volatile fans they want him out.


Its due to glory hunting old firm fans. Thousands of them in Edinburgh and surrounding areas with no real reason apart from the fact their dad and his dad supported them etc.

Its like a bad gene because they bring their kids up supporting a team that they will never actually show any real interest when doing bad, or actually go and watch live. This will go on for generations and is the whole single reason why scottish football is a complete mess. Not that I care much but its the same idea in Ireland where everyone supports man u, liverpool, celtic and rangers for no other reason than they win!!!

iwasthere1972
10-08-2009, 01:38 PM
I thought Gunn was a bit of a legend as a Norwich player given his long association with the club? Or is he just not rated as a coach?

If we lose 7-1 on Saturday I'll be calling for Yogi's head for sure!

Gunn was a legend at Carrow Road but I don't think his appointment as manager went down too well. That's the impression I got when he took over the reins.

Would YOU throw your season ticket away if we got thrashed on Saturday? Always wondered if the books are returned to their rightful owners or not. Maybe someone with experience in this department can tell me. :greengrin

Joe Baker II
10-08-2009, 01:48 PM
One team in town and also the area has little affinity with anywhere else in England so no big draw to London teams or Man U or Liverpool.

We have two teams in a fairly small city that is also mainly rugby orientated and we also have a huge percentage of people in the city and surrounding areas who follow the Old Firm.

I don't dispute rugby unions historically cancerous influence on Edinburgh but given no rugby union club in Edinburgh regularly attracts much in excess of 2,000 spectators and most struggle to get three figure crowds not sure how a big influence it now is on Edinburgh football crowds which now generally compare reasonably well with a lot of towns of similar size in England.

Better comparision is the Norfolk population 824,000, similar to Mid, East and West Lothian but where there is only one football team (may be Division 3 now but challenged for League in last decade) while 3 in Lothian Region (assuming Livingston survive). Nearest other league team to Ipswich 43 miles away with no other team in similar radius while we must have about 20 clubs (including two clubs with worldwide followings) within that radius.

Brizo
10-08-2009, 02:16 PM
I read in yesterdays paper that Burnleys populations between 60,000 and 70,000 and theyve sold 17.000 season tickets and took 30,000 to their play off final. Given the size of Embra it puts our 30,000 plus cup final turnouts into perspective.

We live in a city with a big armchair OF support , a big rugby (well one month a year 6 nations) support and a huge middle class who are generally just not interested in fitba. Its always been this way. I remember watching us as part of 4000 and 5000 crowds so the last decades crowds are id guess some of our best ever outwith the Famous 5 era.

I also agree with a previous posters comments about the variety of weekend activities to do in a city like Embra. Id guess theres a huge amount more choice here than somewhere like Burnley where its either the fitba or whipping your ferret.

blackpoolhibs
10-08-2009, 02:31 PM
I read in yesterdays paper that Burnleys populations between 60,000 and 70,000 and theyve sold 17.000 season tickets and took 30,000 to their play off final. Given the size of Embra it puts our 30,000 plus cup final turnouts into perspective.

We live in a city with a big armchair OF support , a big rugby (well one month a year 6 nations) support and a huge middle class who are generally just not interested in fitba. Its always been this way. I remember watching us as part of 4000 and 5000 crowds so the last decades crowds are id guess some of our best ever outwith the Famous 5 era.

I also agree with a previous posters comments about the variety of weekend activities to do in a city like Embra. Id guess theres a huge amount more choice here than somewhere like Burnley where its either the fitba or whipping your ferret.

:faf: Is that some kind of innuendo? :thumbsup:

Andy74
10-08-2009, 02:36 PM
I don't dispute rugby unions historically cancerous influence on Edinburgh but given no rugby union club in Edinburgh regularly attracts much in excess of 2,000 spectators and most struggle to get three figure crowds not sure how a big influence it now is on Edinburgh football crowds which now generally compare reasonably well with a lot of towns of similar size in England.

Better comparision is the Norfolk population 824,000, similar to Mid, East and West Lothian but where there is only one football team (may be Division 3 now but challenged for League in last decade) while 3 in Lothian Region (assuming Livingston survive). Nearest other league team to Ipswich 43 miles away with no other team in similar radius while we must have about 20 clubs (including two clubs with worldwide followings) within that radius.


I meant that, living in Edinburgh there is a high percentage of people who are rugby 'fans' and as such would have no interest at all in going to a football match, and in fact would probably be mortified about the mere thought of it.

So, not so much that they are instead in a rugby ground, just that it cuts our target audience if we are looking at population sizes.

iwasthere1972
10-08-2009, 02:37 PM
I read in yesterdays paper that Burnleys populations between 60,000 and 70,000 and theyve sold 17.000 season tickets and took 30,000 to their play off final. Given the size of Embra it puts our 30,000 plus cup final turnouts into perspective.

We live in a city with a big armchair OF support , a big rugby (well one month a year 6 nations) support and a huge middle class who are generally just not interested in fitba. Its always been this way. I remember watching us as part of 4000 and 5000 crowds so the last decades crowds are id guess some of our best ever outwith the Famous 5 era.

I also agree with a previous posters comments about the variety of weekend activities to do in a city like Embra. Id guess theres a huge amount more choice here than somewhere like Burnley where its either the fitba or whipping your ferret.

That's a tremendous response from their supporters.

I would say in our defence that if we were playing EPL opposition at ER we would probably have to extend our stadium to double what it is now. Sales even from tourists in Edinburgh would hit the roof if any of the "top four" were in town.

hibhib7
10-08-2009, 02:55 PM
Some clubs have owners who actually have ambition for the team rather than merely keeping the club solvent. Yogi's enthusiasm will not sustain us unless we can sign a couple of players to raise us above the mediocre level. When the injuries start to pile up the only cover we have will be the young laddies.

To be fair, I was at Bolton on Saturday and I thought the team had a good shape about them and the players seemed to know the parts they were meant to play. Trouble is; this is working defensively, with midfielders tracking back, but where are the goals going to come from? We are suffering from a lack of flair with only Riordan capable of giving us a bit different when Zooma isn't playing.

blackpoolhibs
10-08-2009, 03:00 PM
Some clubs have owners who actually have ambition for the team rather than merely keeping the club solvent. Yogi's enthusiasm will not sustain us unless we can sign a couple of players to raise us above the mediocre level. When the injuries start to pile up the only cover we have will be the young laddies.

To be fair, I was at Bolton on Saturday and I thought the team had a good shape about them and the players seemed to know the parts they were meant to play. Trouble is; this is working defensively, with midfielders tracking back, but where are the goals going to come from? We are suffering from a lack of flair with only Riordan capable of giving us a bit different when Zooma isn't playing.

That would be my worry too. I would imagine we will have players arriving before the window shuts. They need to be good, not just squad fillers.

Virginia Hibs
10-08-2009, 03:01 PM
Even in a relegation season like last year Norwich were getting 22 - 25k every home game. IIRC 21k were seasons last year and more or less the same number have renewed this year. My view is that the only other thing to do on a Saturday is the shopping or drive the combine harvester for a couple of hours (only really a useful exercise during the late summer months when there's nae fitba! :greengrin). The nearest teams are Ipswich and Colchester then the likes of Peterborough or it's non league football for you.
NCFC have been living well beyond their means for many a year and are feeling the pain now. I've said it before and I'll say it again....they could do with a leader in the Rod Petrie style for a few years to get them on their financial feet.

I am a season ticket holder at Carrow Road along with my laddie (6), only because he's started playing fitba and he can learn from watching the game. I can't say what went wrong on Saturday as we were at Bolton but Bryan has never been a popular choice for manager, split the support from the word go. No coaching qualifications and last season showed his lack of tactical knowledge. It's only his legend status which has kept the fans from his door up till now. Still there's 45 games to go to save the season!

Just because she cooks on the telly doesn't mean she can make decent pies! Dont believe the hype. The pies are shocking! The number of times I've asked for a simple steak pie to be told we only have cabbage and cranberry is a joke! Now the Prime Steak Pies at Bolton Saturday courtesy of Holland's...there's a delicacy for you :thumbsup:

Who needs Shaun Lawson eh?

J-C
10-08-2009, 04:30 PM
Apart from being a one team city, you'll find that they don't have as many glory hunters disappearing every week to see bigger teams like we do here in Edinburgh.

libernian
10-08-2009, 05:20 PM
ok, well i read somewhere that relative to population scotland is the best supported country in the world or maybe it was europe.

it said there was something like 100k going every week to league matches...
so for england to match that it would have to be like a million going...
i'd guess 350k in epl, 200k in champ, 120k in l1, 80k in l3...

so we dont do too bad on paper its just a shame that either 50% or 60% of the scottish leagues is rangers/celtic...

crazy tho, leeds are also in league 1 and get 30k or something!! bout dunfermline, yeah cowdenbeath just along the road almost every single person supports rangers with the odd pars/raith/cowden fan!

libernian
10-08-2009, 05:28 PM
also, theres a lot of folk living in edinburgh not from edinburgh - who's gonna move to burnley?

heretoday
10-08-2009, 05:39 PM
...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

In the same league, Charlton pulled in 16.5K, while in the Championship Cardiff drew 22K, Leicester 26K and Derby a massive 33K. I know it was the opening day of the season but you'd hardly call any of these clubs major forces in football at present.

Oh, and one other thing. If we were to lose 7-1 at home to St Mirren on Saturday as Norwich did to the mighty Colchester, would you want to see Yogi sacked? Just interested, as I wonder how close Gunn must be to losing his job after just one game. Judging by the reaction of some of the more volatile fans they want him out.

do you know? I've often thought that myself!

The_Todd
10-08-2009, 08:00 PM
...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

In the same league, Charlton pulled in 16.5K, while in the Championship Cardiff drew 22K, Leicester 26K and Derby a massive 33K. I know it was the opening day of the season but you'd hardly call any of these clubs major forces in football at present.

Oh, and one other thing. If we were to lose 7-1 at home to St Mirren on Saturday as Norwich did to the mighty Colchester, would you want to see Yogi sacked? Just interested, as I wonder how close Gunn must be to losing his job after just one game. Judging by the reaction of some of the more volatile fans they want him out.

Cardiff draw their support from the entire South East Wales region and the Valleys. Apart from Swansea, they're the only league team in Wales.

And it was also the opening of their new stadium.

We share a city with Hearts, have Celtic, Rangers, Falkirk, St Johnstone, Motherwell, Hamilton and St Mirren within an hours drive of us - all top flight teams.

Also, the Championship and League 1 have plenty money sloshing around. If Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen were playing in the English Championship I reckon crowds could reach that.

It's apples and oranges.

ancient hibee
10-08-2009, 08:08 PM
It's because Hibs and Hearts have underperformed for 40 years.Most teams down south have won nothing but the geographical spread makes it more difficult to go elsewhere.

ballengeich
10-08-2009, 08:25 PM
England, for all its faults, doesn't have clubs baised on sectarian bigotry. As a consequence, people will identify with their town or region and support its club.

When you take out the OF contibution, Scottish football attendance figures are pathetically low.

Cocaine&Caviar
10-08-2009, 08:42 PM
I don't dispute rugby unions historically cancerous influence on Edinburgh but given no rugby union club in Edinburgh regularly attracts much in excess of 2,000 spectators and most struggle to get three figure crowds not sure how a big influence it now is on Edinburgh football crowds which now generally compare reasonably well with a lot of towns of similar size in England.



Educate me please...

The_Todd
10-08-2009, 08:53 PM
Educate me please...

Thinking the same...

bobbyhibs1983
10-08-2009, 09:00 PM
Well the aforementioned clubs are in towns/cities that have nothing else to do except go to the football.

This Saturday at 3pm, people can either attend the Hibs match or go to a selection of 1000's of shows in this year's Fringe for considerably cheaper, for example.

Edinburgh is an active city and sport, in general, often takes a back seat when people are deciding what to do with their weekends.



I tihnk you sorta touch on the problem and i ve not seen anyone else mention it, but does price make a big difference?
I mean ncfc are in the 2nd/3rd div so i would imagen there walk up/season ticket prices being resonable compares to us/heartz..

This season my bro/sis and I just cannot afford a s.t

Out of intrest what is a walk up/st price for them?

erin go bragh
10-08-2009, 09:06 PM
Norwich is a one team city/town though is it not.

Also, with all the extra money floating about the leagues down there, the standard of play is generally better than whats on show up here.

I would've launched my book at Gunn if I was that guy aswell! :bye:
they have a derby with ipswich:confused:

The_Todd
10-08-2009, 09:11 PM
they have a derby with ipswich:confused:

Yes, but they don't share a city. Or even a county - therefore their catchment area is larger.

Sir David Gray
10-08-2009, 09:20 PM
they have a derby with ipswich:confused:

It's not a derby in the true sense of the word, though.

They both come from the same region (East Anglia) but they are more than 40 miles apart.

It's a bit like calling a Hibs-Rangers match a derby.

LancashireHibby
10-08-2009, 09:22 PM
It's only considered a derby because there's bugger all in between. Says a lot when East Anglia's third largest club is probably King's Lynn.

hibs0666
10-08-2009, 09:24 PM
Educate me please...

The Edinburgh middle class don't really like footie, and 25% of kids in Edinburgh go to private schools. That takes the footie catchment down from 460,000 to 350,000.

There is another 12% (I think) of the Edinburgh population that come from England, so lob off another 50,000 or so there.

So, we have a two-team city of around 300,000 potential footie supporters. In that context the fact that us and them can call on 90,000 cup final attendees ain't too shabby.

RickyS
10-08-2009, 09:31 PM
Apart from being a one team city, you'll find that they don't have as many glory hunters disappearing every week to see bigger teams like we do here in Edinburgh.

the glory hunters are obviously one of the reasons, but we are pee in into the wind with Hertz as our neighbours. I mean how can we compete with the 3rd biggest club in the universe, who have 400,000 fans and are due to win the champions league any day.......................

LancashireHibby
10-08-2009, 09:36 PM
the glory hunters are obviously one of the reasons, but we are pee in into the wind with Hertz as our neighbours. I mean how can we compete with the 3rd biggest club in the universe, who have 400,000 fans and are due to win the champions league any day.......................
Only third biggest?! Standards are slipping.

jgl07
10-08-2009, 09:39 PM
Its due to glory hunting old firm fans. Thousands of them in Edinburgh and surrounding areas with no real reason apart from the fact their dad and his dad supported them etc.

Its like a bad gene because they bring their kids up supporting a team that they will never actually show any real interest when doing bad, or actually go and watch live. This will go on for generations and is the whole single reason why scottish football is a complete mess. Not that I care much but its the same idea in Ireland where everyone supports man u, liverpool, celtic and rangers for no other reason than they win!!!
But that affects Norfolk as well. I bet that the place is stuffed with Man United and Chelsea supporters.

If you want 25,000 crowds the first step is to build a stadium big enough and then use marketing to fill it. That's what Fergus McCann did with Celtic. He knew little about football but he did know about martketing.

They were getting 20,000 (often below 10,000) when he took over. He proceded to build a 60,000 capacity stadium. As they stadium expansion went on progressively, the ground was close to full at each stage.

At Hibs the board are derided for trying to build a 20,000 capacity stadium. This is often from the luminaries who think that Hibs should be signing 500,000 players and paying the wages that go with it.

monktonharp
10-08-2009, 09:47 PM
Its due to glory hunting old firm fans. Thousands of them in Edinburgh and surrounding areas with no real reason apart from the fact their dad and his dad supported them etc.

Its like a bad gene because they bring their kids up supporting a team that they will never actually show any real interest when doing bad, or actually go and watch live. This will go on for generations and is the whole single reason why scottish football is a complete mess. Not that I care much but its the same idea in Ireland where everyone supports man u, liverpool, celtic and rangers for no other reason than they win!!!that is the basic problem for Embra clubs,Pars,Falkirk 'Well etc. people attach them selfs to the OF,over Scotland, it makes them nice and safe and winning,never mind the fact that they dont/have not ever been to either of the Glasgow two.they can watch them on tv and tell everyone how great they are:yawn:

Joe Baker II
11-08-2009, 08:40 AM
Educate me please...

I assume you are aware of the intangible but evident atmosphere of snobbery toward football created by the influence of rugby union in the city so will not expand here - though search some of my previous posts if you wish more information.

Some harder examples:

schools (both public and state) forcing children to play rugby union as the athletic arm of Anglicisation and showing no commitment to organising football teams,

banning playing of football even in playground, and beating of children for doing so,

punishment of children for attending football matches in the past are some examples.

These are less or not the case now but the ingrained mentality (resulting in the tangible lack of investment in football from Edinburgh businesses) that these have helped develop in Edinburgh will take longer to change.

hibsbollah
11-08-2009, 08:55 AM
The fact that Norwich and all the other teams mentioned still attract big crowds is good news for football in general IMO. It means there is still life outside the overhyped Premiership and gives hope to all of us whose teams play in leagues without a massive TV deal. It also shows most fans will follow their team regardless of what league it plays in (Leeds, Notts Forest, Derby, both Sheffield clubs still get big crowds for big games). Down my way, most Geordies just havent a clue what kind of attendance there will be at SJP for their first home game in the Championship, and theres probably as much interest in that as there is in the match itself.

As far as Hibs is concerned, increasing our fan base doesnt interest me too much. If it happens, fine, but im not obsessed with becoming 'bigger'. Leave that to our neighbours...

Joe Baker II
11-08-2009, 09:04 AM
Apart from being a one team city, you'll find that they don't have as many glory hunters disappearing every week to see bigger teams like we do here in Edinburgh.

I uinderstand why it is tempting for Edinburgh football fans to blame other fans for the shortcomings of their own clubs, but this argument tends to fall down as it is never shown how many of these alleged glory hunters are from Edinburgh in the first place, as other posters have implied.

J-C
11-08-2009, 09:19 AM
I uinderstand why it is tempting for Edinburgh football fans to blame other fans for the shortcomings of their own clubs, but this argument tends to fall down as it is never shown how many of these alleged glory hunters are from Edinburgh in the first place, as other posters have implied.


Have you ever seen the dozens of buses leaving Haymarket etc every week either heading sor Darkheid or Greyskull. 30 buses with 40 in each bus, plus the hundreds going by train and cars, you're talking about 4-5,000 potential extra supporters Hibs or Hearts could have.

My next door neighbour is a Jambo and he wasn't happy when his laddie decided to support the Huns, another neighbour is a Celtic supporter purley because his family originally came from there and his dad was a Celtic man. Look around you and you'll see more and more kids wearing OF shirts, more than I ever remember seeing.

Captain Trips
11-08-2009, 09:26 AM
My theory is that more than half the teams in the Championship, and in the Leagues below all start this season thinking they will finish top or thereabouts.

Take the Championship, Reading, West Brom, Ncastle, Palace, Cardiff, PNE, Mboro, Sheff Utd, thats 8 teams off top of head who could win it so there fans will be anticapating success. Im sure can do same for Norwich's leauge.

We have 10k STs based on we wont win the SPL maybe a cup but not SPL, is very good. all their fans are going thinking will win there respective League and have valid reason.

I guess same as why our crowds when in Div1 were good, anticipating success.

You tell these teams before season starts you will not finish in top 3 see how many they sell, we buy ours based on the high chance we wont finish higher than 3rd.

dirtydirk
11-08-2009, 10:03 AM
Have you ever seen the dozens of buses leaving Haymarket etc every week either heading sor Darkheid or Greyskull. 30 buses with 40 in each bus, plus the hundreds going by train and cars, you're talking about 4-5,000 potential extra supporters Hibs or Hearts could have.

My next door neighbour is a Jambo and he wasn't happy when his laddie decided to support the Huns, another neighbour is a Celtic supporter purley because his family originally came from there and his dad was a Celtic man. Look around you and you'll see more and more kids wearing OF shirts, more than I ever remember seeing.

Spot on. I think east of scotland old firm fans are very confused people. I have debates with my OF supporting mates and ask them the question about how they can gain satisfaction from there team who spend millions of pounds beating a team like falkirk who have spent 100k in 5 years. Its like getting a kick out of watching mike tyson beating up a 10 year old kid.
And on the other hand, they spit the dummy when the team gets beat and call for the manager to be sacked etc.

Also the fact is there is probably more hibs and hearts fans who have been to Ibrox and Parkhead more times in their life than most of the OF fans through this side of the country.

I seen Hibs draw 1-1 with Celtic only a few years back at Parkhead (lovell scored). Celtic had pretty much given the title away but technically could still win the league and the attendance was under 30,000. That may seem big but not when you have 60k season ticket holders. The OF are the worst fans in the world!!!!

Brizo
11-08-2009, 12:41 PM
I assume you are aware of the intangible but evident atmosphere of snobbery toward football created by the influence of rugby union in the city so will not expand here - though search some of my previous posts if you wish more information.

Some harder examples:

schools (both public and state) forcing children to play rugby union as the athletic arm of Anglicisation and showing no commitment to organising football teams,

banning playing of football even in playground, and beating of children for doing so,
punishment of children for attending football matches in the past are some examples.
These are less or not the case now but the ingrained mentality (resulting in the tangible lack of investment in football from Edinburgh businesses) that these have helped develop in Edinburgh will take longer to change.

Really ??? Im not trying to be smart but when exactly did these things happen. Tom Browns schooldays :wink:

Posh Swanny
11-08-2009, 01:11 PM
It's only considered a derby because there's bugger all in between. Says a lot when East Anglia's third largest club is probably King's Lynn.

Ahem... :wink:

Joe Baker II
11-08-2009, 01:14 PM
Really ??? Im not trying to be smart but when exactly did these things happen. Tom Browns schooldays :wink:

certainly from 1950s onwards there were plenty of such stories about beatings/punishment and still recall football playing being actively discouraged at state schools in 1980s.

Joe Baker II
11-08-2009, 01:18 PM
Have you ever seen the dozens of buses leaving Haymarket etc every week either heading sor Darkheid or Greyskull. 30 buses with 40 in each bus, plus the hundreds going by train and cars, you're talking about 4-5,000 potential extra supporters Hibs or Hearts could have.
.

Yes but point was that the proportion of these people who are actually not from Edinburgh originally has never been established. And then you have to take off number of Hibs fans not from Edinburgh to make any figure realistic - we have quite a few located/from areas where there are more local teams.

Dozens of buses leaving each week - are you sure. And while I am not saying an extra 2-2,500 fans would not be welcome to Hibs/Hearts it is not really critical reason why Edinburgh crowds (which actually in recently years are not too bad) lie behind those in some cities.

AndyM_1875
11-08-2009, 01:40 PM
I assume you are aware of the intangible but evident atmosphere of snobbery toward football created by the influence of rugby union in the city so will not expand here - though search some of my previous posts if you wish more information.

Some harder examples:

schools (both public and state) forcing children to play rugby union as the athletic arm of Anglicisation and showing no commitment to organising football teams,

banning playing of football even in playground, and beating of children for doing so,

punishment of children for attending football matches in the past are some examples.

These are less or not the case now but the ingrained mentality (resulting in the tangible lack of investment in football from Edinburgh businesses) that these have helped develop in Edinburgh will take longer to change.

Joe, I was educated at a private school in Edinburgh. I can assure you I was never beaten or punished for either playing football nor for going to Easter Road. Back in the 80s my punishment was watching the games at ER.

At my school football and rugby were both alive and well and co-existed quite happily alongside each other and more boys played football to be honest. Some played both.

Blaming rugby for Hibs & Hearts crowds being poor is missing the picture IMHO. Scotland play at Murrayfield about 6 times a year and you are lucky is half of those games clash with a Hibs home fixture.

Your real problem is Old Firm gloryhunters. Celtic and Rangers each have about 9,000 ST Holders with EH Postcodes. That's your problem, not Rugby.

Keith_M
11-08-2009, 01:56 PM
Yes but point was that the proportion of these people who are actually not from Edinburgh originally has never been established. And then you have to take off number of Hibs fans not from Edinburgh to make any figure realistic - we have quite a few located/from areas where there are more local teams.

Dozens of buses leaving each week - are you sure. And while I am not saying an extra 2-2,500 fans would not be welcome to Hibs/Hearts it is not really critical reason why Edinburgh crowds (which actually in recently years are not too bad) lie behind those in some cities.

Well I'm originally from a village just outside Edinburgh and it. along with all the other villages and towns round about, had far more people who declared themselves to be OF fans than Hibs/Hearts fans. Whether they went to games or not is irrelevant, it means they do not go to Hibs or Hearts games.

Also, the number of people who support Hibs and Hearts from outside the lothians is miniscule compared to the number of OF 'fans' inside the lothians, so the former certainly doesn't cancel out the latter.

J-C
11-08-2009, 02:46 PM
Yes but point was that the proportion of these people who are actually not from Edinburgh originally has never been established. And then you have to take off number of Hibs fans not from Edinburgh to make any figure realistic - we have quite a few located/from areas where there are more local teams.

Dozens of buses leaving each week - are you sure. And while I am not saying an extra 2-2,500 fans would not be welcome to Hibs/Hearts it is not really critical reason why Edinburgh crowds (which actually in recently years are not too bad) lie behind those in some cities.

I take it you've never been to Haymarket on a saturday where there's always a police presence due to the Celtic/Huns fans either getting coaches or trains out west.Surely areas from the lothians like Dalkieth, Musselburgh etc would have a majority of Hibs/Hearts supporters as they are closer to Edinburgh than Glasgow but you'd be surprised at the number of OF fans in these areas.

Brizo
11-08-2009, 03:16 PM
certainly from 1950s onwards there were plenty of such stories about beatings/punishment and still recall football playing being actively discouraged at state schools in 1980s.

I know for a fact that a number of Embra fee paying schools have played fitba for many years now. They have their own fee paying schools Cup and some but not all enter the local Cup competitions and play against the comprehensives. Fettes College away at Castlebrae will be a culture shock for all concerned if that fixture ever gets drawn out the hat :greengrin

So tbh Joe I dont think your comments are that relevant to the current situation. What Embras OF fans and Embras rugby fans have in common is that the vast majority of both are basically armchair supports. As others have alluded to you only need to head slightly west to Broxburn or Armadale or slightly east to Port Seton and Prestonpans to see the armchair OF effect in what should be Embra team catchment areas.

LHWM
11-08-2009, 09:57 PM
Hibs in the early 50s and Hearts at the end of the 50s had the 2nd biggest 'home' crowds. Which was certainly down to the success of both teams.

Hypothetically if there was a 'United Edinburgh' team and you combined the average home league gates of both sides this give

1974-75 24777
1975-76 25331
1976-77 21881
1977-78 17768
1978-79 20195
1979-80 15076
1980-81 10994
1981-82 11701
1982-83 12562
1983-84 18436
1984-85 17441
1985-86 23424
1986-87 22042
1987-88 26619
1988-89 28394
1989-90 25344
1990-91 22014
1991-92 22582
1992-93 19921
1993-94 21748
1994-95 18981
1995-96 22646
1996-97 25097
1997-98 27954
1998-99 23920
1999-00 26480
2000-01 23961
2001-02 25195
2002-03 23726
2003-04 21305
2004-05 26298
2005-06 29974
2006-07 31082
2007-08 27879
2008-09 27626

So the average over the last 10 years has been 26,352. A better comparison.

jgl07
12-08-2009, 12:08 AM
Your real problem is Old Firm gloryhunters. Celtic and Rangers each have about 9,000 ST Holders with EH Postcodes.
Be wary of Edinburgh postcodes.

The whole of West Lothian has Edinburgh postcodes. Rangers supporting areas such as Armadale have EH48 postcodes.

LHWM
12-08-2009, 12:17 AM
Be wary of Edinburgh postcodes.

The whole of West Lothian has Edinburgh postcodes. Rangers supporting areas such as Armadale have EH48 postcodes.

Surely EH1690 Postcodes?

jgl07
12-08-2009, 12:41 AM
Surely EH1690 Postcodes?
I thought that was Blackridge.

The self styled 'No hang-gun town" has two places of entertainment:

The Masonic Lodge and Broxy's Rangers theme pub. At least it did until a drunken tramp managed to burn out Broxy's a few years back.

AndyM_1875
12-08-2009, 06:36 AM
Be wary of Edinburgh postcodes.

The whole of West Lothian has Edinburgh postcodes. Rangers supporting areas such as Armadale have EH48 postcodes.

Point taken. But it is still true to say that Both Old Firms clubs still have significant numbers from the Edinburgh area in their ST make up that are non West Lothian and are made up of people born and brought up in Edinburgh.

Those folk..... I just don't get.:confused:

Wakeyhibee
12-08-2009, 08:06 AM
Whilst there are teams such as Norwich and Burnley doing very well there are examples of English teams who don't do so well out of the their catchment area. After all Scottish football is watched by more people per capita than in England.

Where Scotland has failed has been to emulate the expansion in support that has happened in England over the last 15-20 years. Scotlands crowds have been largely the same (around 4m per season) since the early 60's after the post war boom subsided. The only real change being a shift of 1m of those now watching the OF at home.

More recently I think the main reasons for this are:-

Stadia and facilities have been poor and slow to change in comparison to England, until very recently. Scotland is now catching up but has missed the bandwagon with another recession in full flow. Also many teams such as St Mirren will never be able to match their previous averages due to the capacity available to them.

Competition is non existant in the SPL. The shift to supporting the OF is a direct result of the set up in Scotland. Too many mid ranking teams are now also rans such as Dundee, Partick, Morton, Dunfermline, St Johnstone.

Marketing & Investment - England has marketed it's leagues (especially lower leagues) to much better effect than Scotland. It has also enjoyed vastly more investment from business and councils. This means that so-called smaller teams with half Hibs support can pay more in wages. Teams such as Doncaster have risen from nowhere to new municipal stadia without a debt to pay.

I don't go with the Rugby argument as a reason in it's own right either (although it maybe a factor) as many teams down here compete with Union and especially Rugby League in these parts and do so very well.

Maybe Scotlands 4m per season is the most that can be hoped for with the population to hand and only a redistribution of that support is possible if the SPL/SFA/SFL get their respective acts together.

One other factor Scotland doesn't have is cities and large towns without football teams to draw from nearby. The Wakefield metropolitan area alone has a population of around 315,000 without a major football team and the Wildcats getting 5-8000. Leeds, Huddersfield and Barnsley all benefit from this.

LancsHibs
12-08-2009, 08:09 AM
My theory is that more than half the teams in the Championship, and in the Leagues below all start this season thinking they will finish top or thereabouts.

Take the Championship, Reading, West Brom, Ncastle, Palace, Cardiff, PNE, Mboro, Sheff Utd, thats 8 teams off top of head who could win it so there fans will be anticapating success. Im sure can do same for Norwich's leauge.

We have 10k STs based on we wont win the SPL maybe a cup but not SPL, is very good. all their fans are going thinking will win there respective League and have valid reason.

I guess same as why our crowds when in Div1 were good, anticipating success.

You tell these teams before season starts you will not finish in top 3 see how many they sell, we buy ours based on the high chance we wont finish higher than 3rd.

If that's the case then why do clubs in the English Premier League such as Everton, Sunderland, Aston Villa, Spurs, Wolves, West Ham etc.. easily get over 20k ST sales when their fans know they have absolutely no chance of winning the league?

English league no different, big 4 in league of 20 compared to big 2 in league of 12! Same scenario with just about every national top league in Europe!

As stated elsewhere don't think the lack of competition at the top end of the top league is the problem with Hibs/Hearts or every other non OF Scottish teams crowds, its the unfortunate fact that we (Hibs and all other clubs) loose potential support to the OF due to glory hunting which is the same as in England, Spain, Germany etc.. but we also have the added pressure of a national inherited sectarian mindset in a large % of the population i.e. I'm a cafflic/prod therefore I support OF 'cos my dad told me to!!!!

Captain Trips
12-08-2009, 08:40 AM
If that's the case then why do clubs in the English Premier League such as Everton, Sunderland, Aston Villa, Spurs, Wolves, West Ham etc.. easily get over 20k ST sales when their fans know they have absolutely no chance of winning the league?

English league no different, big 4 in league of 20 compared to big 2 in league of 12! Same scenario with just about every national top league in Europe!

As stated elsewhere don't think the lack of competition at the top end of the top league is the problem with Hibs/Hearts or every other non OF Scottish teams crowds, its the unfortunate fact that we (Hibs and all other clubs) loose potential support to the OF due to glory hunting which is the same as in England, Spain, Germany etc.. but we also have the added pressure of a national inherited sectarian mindset in a large % of the population i.e. I'm a cafflic/prod therefore I support OF 'cos my dad told me to!!!!

Simple they have really good players that attract the fans and to a point the calibur of the opposition. The point is that the teams I mentioned maybe dont have the great players but they have the chance of winning their respective titles.

Wakeyhibee
12-08-2009, 08:52 AM
If that's the case then why do clubs in the English Premier League such as Everton, Sunderland, Aston Villa, Spurs, Wolves, West Ham etc.. easily get over 20k ST sales when their fans know they have absolutely no chance of winning the league?

Easy,

Watching a vastly superior product, more investment, Better players in team and visiting, more chance of an upset against one of the top sides in the league, more chance of a cup, more chance of a European place at a higher entry level, and at the bottom an exciting fight to stay in the elite

all = greater expectation of success or excitement

even the promoted teams ambition of just staying up is mitigated by a huge parachute payment meaning their future is much more secure and the chance of returning for a second shot even more likely.

compare with the SPL and until recently the bottom team was adrift and sunk at Chistmas, OF 20 points in front by November (Hull were up there last season at that point).

they may not expect to win it but with the available finances can mount a challenge. When you're living off free transfers, youth and cheap foreign gambles/journeymen it's not the same.

Keith_M
12-08-2009, 09:03 AM
Surely EH1690 Postcodes?



:faf:

Keith_M
12-08-2009, 09:11 AM
Just had a quick look at the NCFC website and was very impressed by the fact they've managed to sell 18,000 STs, considering they're in League One.

It would be interesting to see how Hibs and Hearts fared if the Scottish and English leagues were ever combined. I'd imagine Hibs would be at about Norwich's level, moving back and forward between the Championship and League One with maybe the occasional one season visit to the EPL.

IMHO, it's not really worth the possibility that we could lose our national team and the (admittedly rare) chance of occasionally qualifying for europe.

Andy74
12-08-2009, 09:12 AM
Be wary of Edinburgh postcodes.

The whole of West Lothian has Edinburgh postcodes. Rangers supporting areas such as Armadale have EH48 postcodes.

Doesn't this kind of make the whole point!?

The area is closer to Edinburgh than Glasgow and yet it is an establsihed Rangers area. West Lothian in total will have more OF fans than Hibs or Hearts.

The English clubs we are discussing just don't really have those issues.

Joe Baker II
12-08-2009, 09:13 AM
I know for a fact that a number of Embra fee paying schools have played fitba for many years now. They have their own fee paying schools Cup and some but not all enter the local Cup competitions and play against the comprehensives. Fettes College away at Castlebrae will be a culture shock for all concerned if that fixture ever gets drawn out the hat :greengrin

So tbh Joe I dont think your comments are that relevant to the current situation. What Embras OF fans and Embras rugby fans have in common is that the vast majority of both are basically armchair supports. As others have alluded to you only need to head slightly west to Broxburn or Armadale or slightly east to Port Seton and Prestonpans to see the armchair OF effect in what should be Embra team catchment areas.

I agree with what you are saying (just saw Edinburgh Academy playing fields are now overrun with football pitches last night actually!) but about situation now and had pointed out that Edinburgh crowds actually not that bad now, but point was social consequences from past attitudes in city still do have impactt.

LancsHibs
12-08-2009, 09:14 AM
So its the product on offer then that's the reason for the perceived low attendance in comparison to Norwich? Not the OF, lack of competition as some have suggested or Rugby as others have said?
This conclusion asks the question, Is the English div 1 that much better than the SPL, personally I dont think so (having watched a lot of div 1 football), if it is thats a sorry state of affairs our game is in!!!!

Joe Baker II
12-08-2009, 09:15 AM
Also, the number of people who support Hibs and Hearts from outside the lothians is miniscule compared to the number of OF 'fans' inside the lothians, so the former certainly doesn't cancel out the latter.

Are you sure about this, think there are quite a few, as per OF fans here fact they may go to games less still means they do not follow local teams.

Joe Baker II
12-08-2009, 09:17 AM
So its the product on offer then that's the reason for the perceived low attendance in comparison to Norwich? Not the OF, lack of competition as some have suggested or Rugby as others have said?
This conclusion asks the question, Is the English div 1 that much better than the SPL, personally I dont think so (having watched a lot of div 1 football), if it is thats a sorry state of affairs our game is in!!!!

Norwich are hardly typical of 3rd tier (refuse to call it Division 1), plenty of games there get crowds < 6000.

blackpoolhibs
12-08-2009, 09:18 AM
Just had a quick look at the NCFC website and was very impressed by the fact they've managed to sell 18,000 STs, considering they're in League One.

It would be interesting to see how Hibs and Hearts fared if the Scottish and English leagues were ever combined. I'd imagine Hibs would be at about Norwich's level, moving back and forward between the Championship and League One with maybe the occasional one season visit to the EPL.

IMHO, it's not really worth the possibility that we could lose our national team and the (admittedly rare) chance of occasionally qualifying for europe.

Or we could be bigger than the likes of Bolton, Blackburn, Burnley, Wigan, Hull, and Fulham. Give us 40m to spend, and we are just as big, if not bigger than those clubs.

Bishop Hibee
12-08-2009, 09:19 AM
Joe, I was educated at a private school in Edinburgh. I can assure you I was never beaten or punished for either playing football nor for going to Easter Road. Back in the 80s my punishment was watching the games at ER.

At my school football and rugby were both alive and well and co-existed quite happily alongside each other and more boys played football to be honest. Some played both.

Blaming rugby for Hibs & Hearts crowds being poor is missing the picture IMHO. Scotland play at Murrayfield about 6 times a year and you are lucky is half of those games clash with a Hibs home fixture.

Your real problem is Old Firm gloryhunters. Celtic and Rangers each have about 9,000 ST Holders with EH Postcodes. That's your problem, not Rugby.

It's defo the case that some private schools such as Edinburgh Academy promote rugby, cricket and hockey ahead of football. Source - neighbour's son who is a Hibby and went there. In my opinion this is done deliberately to keep their precious offspring away from the oiks.

Also, in my experience, those with a private school education tend to support Hearts. I'd be interested to hear posters views on this.

Agree with comments on OF fans and number of non-Edinburgh born people living in Edinburgh and surrounds being a factor too.

Keith_M
12-08-2009, 09:21 AM
Are you sure about this, think there are quite a few, as per OF fans here fact they may go to games less still means they do not follow local teams.

I'm only going by the places outside the Edinburgh area I've actually lived, and yes, the amount of Hibs & Hearts fans was miniscule compared to the amount of OF fans in Edinburgh and the Lothians. I'd say, going by that, yes I am certain.

Joe Baker II
12-08-2009, 09:24 AM
I take it you've never been to Haymarket on a saturday where there's always a police presence due to the Celtic/Huns fans either getting coaches or trains out west.Surely areas from the lothians like Dalkieth, Musselburgh etc would have a majority of Hibs/Hearts supporters as they are closer to Edinburgh than Glasgow but you'd be surprised at the number of OF fans in these areas.

I have seen it but think your numbers are overstated though I could not claim to know for sure. Have never seen larger than normal police presence even when Hibs/Hearts travelling to Glasgow - remember there are always police on duty at major stain stations but some only go to stations when football on so not sure this is a meaningful indicator.

Not surprised by number of OF fans from areas you refer to but doubt they are anything close to being in majority - Dalkeith was affected by Midlothian mining expansion by migration from West Coast in 1950where impact still felt in football terms. And to lesser extent so were parts of East Lothian though I am from near Musselburgh and do not think it was particularly.

LancsHibs
12-08-2009, 09:24 AM
Norwich are hardly typical of 3rd tier (refuse to call it Division 1), plenty of games there get crowds < 6000.

So do SPL clubs

Joe Baker II
12-08-2009, 09:27 AM
So do SPL clubs

Exactly, but cannot use Norwich's crowds to say Div 3 bigger/better etc any more than say Celtic typical of SPL.

J-C
12-08-2009, 09:29 AM
Easy,

Watching a vastly superior product, more investment, Better players in team and visiting, more chance of an upset against one of the top sides in the league, more chance of a cup, more chance of a European place at a higher entry level, and at the bottom an exciting fight to stay in the elite

all = greater expectation of success or excitement

even the promoted teams ambition of just staying up is mitigated by a huge parachute payment meaning their future is much more secure and the chance of returning for a second shot even more likely.

compare with the SPL and until recently the bottom team was adrift and sunk at Chistmas, OF 20 points in front by November (Hull were up there last season at that point).

they may not expect to win it but with the available finances can mount a challenge. When you're living off free transfers, youth and cheap foreign gambles/journeymen it's not the same.


Just like the Hibs of the 70's a lot of excellent players who entertained, capable of mounting a wee challenge and doing reasonably well in the cups.

LancsHibs
12-08-2009, 09:51 AM
Exactly, but cannot use Norwich's crowds to say Div 3 bigger/better etc any more than say Celtic typical of SPL.

Yes I agree with you, the point I was trying to make which I think has been lost is the reasons both Norwich and Celtic get 'good crowds' are for completely different reasons:

Norwich get good crowds because they are well supported in their local area (Norwich & Norfolk as a whole) this is mostly due to their isolation and lock of competition.
Celtic get big crowds, yes they are from a big city, they attract a huge number of 'glory hunters', people who want to follow a team that wins a lot which you will always get in whatever country your in, but the sectarian element is a huge factor in drawing theirs (and Rangers) support in Scotland.

I disagree to a point that Scottish clubs support (not just Hibs) is not as big as it could/should be in comparison to to some English clubs because of the product on offer. Some folk are too quick sometimes to undermine the Scottish game, which I think is unfair & it compares well to English football IMO.

IF the product on offer is an issue then that again comes down to the OF's domination keeping other clubs back from from fulfilling their potential. Its a vicious circle.
In conclusion, its the OF that are the reason for any lack of competition and low crowds at certain other clubs and the reason why the OP asked why a club like Norwich will end the season with a probable average attendance about 10K more than ours.
OF GTF

J-C
12-08-2009, 10:00 AM
I have seen it but think your numbers are overstated though I could not claim to know for sure. Have never seen larger than normal police presence even when Hibs/Hearts travelling to Glasgow - remember there are always police on duty at major stain stations but some only go to stations when football on so not sure this is a meaningful indicator.

Not surprised by number of OF fans from areas you refer to but doubt they are anything close to being in majority - Dalkeith was affected by Midlothian mining expansion by migration from West Coast in 1950where impact still felt in football terms. And to lesser extent so were parts of East Lothian though I am from near Musselburgh and do not think it was particularly.


Hibs were getting regular crowds of 25,000+ with a high of I think 30,000 in 1952ish. What has happened since then, are the kids not getting involved, well I don't think that's it cause there's plenty youngsters still going to the games. No difference in the catchment areas, still coming from surrounding parts of Edinburgh, so it's probably 2 things that have cased attendances to drop.

1. Team performaces and stability of the club.
2. More glory hunting fans either going to OF games, remember OF crowds have increased and our decreased since the mid 80's.


Apart from the occasional cup run, we haven't even come close to challeging the OF for the league, our performances have been up and down like a whores drawers and this frustrates supporters. Back in the 70's when we had a very decent team we were regularly splitting the OF and crowds were of a decent size. Nowadays the crowds show the expectancy of our team, very little money, regular changing of managers and our best players being sold to make ends meet and keep us out of debt. Youngsters grow up seeing the OF on tv every other game and regularly in Europe and want to support a winning team, so allegiance is switched and another supporter is lost.

Wakeyhibee
12-08-2009, 10:22 AM
Hibs were getting regular crowds of 25,000+ with a high of I think 30,000 in 1952ish. What has happened since then, are the kids not getting involved, well I don't think that's it cause there's plenty youngsters still going to the games. No difference in the catchment areas, still coming from surrounding parts of Edinburgh, so it's probably 2 things that have cased attendances to drop.

1. Team performaces and stability of the club.
2. More glory hunting fans either going to OF games, remember OF crowds have increased and our decreased since the mid 80's.

All attendances plummeted in the early 60's after the post war boom. The big games still drew 30-40k but run of the mill games were poor less than todays. It picked up again in the early 70's before dipping to new lows after our stint in Div1 when the East Terrace was closed for a season IIRC.

Our attendances now are up on the 80's, there were some big gates back then but many more at 4-6000.

Here you go up to 2004

52/53 29800
53/54 22020
54/55 22825
55/56 20224
56/57 18176
57/58 20206
58/59 14618
59/60 16559
60/61 15471
61/62 9763
62/63 9063
63/64 11972
64/65 13826
65/66 11664
66/67 12321
67/68 11475
68/69 10835
69/70 13128
70/71 10541
71/72 14057
72/73 16100
73/74 14339
74/75 13721
75/76 13797
76/77 10003
77/78 9647
78/79 9794
79/80 9564
80/81 4460
81/82 7445
82/83 7109
83/84 8334
84/85 7425
85/86 9135
86/87 9154
87/88 11590
88/89 13896
89/90 10705
90/91 9257
91/92 9841
92/93 8791
93/94 9718
94/95 8782
95/96 9842
96/97 10480
97/98 12029
98/99 10220
99/00 12070
00/01 10793
01/02 11588
02/03 10157
03/04 9127

LancsHibs
12-08-2009, 10:43 AM
Interesting WH, what about the last 5 seasons? Where did you get these stats from?

wazoo1875
12-08-2009, 10:56 AM
Interesting WH, what about the last 5 seasons? Where did you get these stats from?
Try this site mate http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm :greengrin

7Hero
12-08-2009, 10:56 AM
...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

1 reason = the old firm.

we will never maximise potetnial as the majority glory hunt..

J-C
12-08-2009, 11:45 AM
All attendances plummeted in the early 60's after the post war boom. The big games still drew 30-40k but run of the mill games were poor less than todays. It picked up again in the early 70's before dipping to new lows after our stint in Div1 when the East Terrace was closed for a season IIRC.

Our attendances now are up on the 80's, there were some big gates back then but many more at 4-6000.

Here you go up to 2004

52/53 29800
53/54 22020
54/55 22825
55/56 20224
56/57 18176
57/58 20206
58/59 14618
59/60 16559
60/61 15471
61/62 9763
62/63 9063
63/64 11972
64/65 13826
65/66 11664
66/67 12321
67/68 11475
68/69 10835
69/70 13128
70/71 10541
71/72 14057
72/73 16100
73/74 14339
74/75 13721
75/76 13797
76/77 10003
77/78 9647
78/79 9794
79/80 9564
80/81 4460
81/82 7445
82/83 7109
83/84 8334
84/85 7425
85/86 9135
86/87 9154
87/88 11590
88/89 13896
89/90 10705
90/91 9257
91/92 9841
92/93 8791
93/94 9718
94/95 8782
95/96 9842
96/97 10480
97/98 12029
98/99 10220
99/00 12070
00/01 10793
01/02 11588
02/03 10157
03/04 9127


Interesting, I notice you mentioned the fact that the bigger games got 25,000+, that;s how I remember it, almost doubling up from the 11-12,000. Now I don't think the away support from those bigger games would've brought 10,000+ with them, so where have all those extra fans gone?

AndyM_1875
12-08-2009, 12:04 PM
It's defo the case that some private schools such as Edinburgh Academy promote rugby, cricket and hockey ahead of football. Source - neighbour's son who is a Hibby and went there. In my opinion this is done deliberately to keep their precious offspring away from the oiks.


Perhaps that's true if you are only thinking about the likes of Merchiston Castle or Fettes which tend to be dominated by English Boarders. However Edinburgh private schools like Stewarts Melville/Watsons/Heriots with an overwhelming majority of locally based kids offer a spread of sports so that the you can try them all. There is nothing wrong with that.



Also, in my experience, those with a private school education tend to support Hearts. I'd be interested to hear posters views on this.


Not true at all in my experience. Was a pretty general spread - Hibs, Hearts, Rangers, Celtic, Dunfermline were all represented. A lot of good Hibbies went to my school.

JackRegan
12-08-2009, 12:23 PM
Hibs were getting regular crowds of 25,000+ with a high of I think 30,000 in 1952ish. What has happened since then, are the kids not getting involved, well I don't think that's it cause there's plenty youngsters still going to the games. No difference in the catchment areas, still coming from surrounding parts of Edinburgh, so it's probably 2 things that have cased attendances to drop.

1. Team performaces and stability of the club.
2. More glory hunting fans either going to OF games, remember OF crowds have increased and our decreased since the mid 80's.


Apart from the occasional cup run, we haven't even come close to challeging the OF for the league, our performances have been up and down like a whores drawers and this frustrates supporters. Back in the 70's when we had a very decent team we were regularly splitting the OF and crowds were of a decent size. Nowadays the crowds show the expectancy of our team, very little money, regular changing of managers and our best players being sold to make ends meet and keep us out of debt. Youngsters grow up seeing the OF on tv every other game and regularly in Europe and want to support a winning team, so allegiance is switched and another supporter is lost.

JC,

If I could just pick you up on a couple of points. while you are correct that Celti'c average attendance has risen significantly since the 80's, most of this is down to teh phenomena of the Season Ticket, whereas before, fans could pick and choose their games. For example, from the early/mid 70's to the mid 90's and moving to teh new Celtic Park, the attendance varied dramatically form full houses against Rangers one week, to sub 20k v St johnstone the next, with crowds of 30k to 60k for games versus Hibs, hearts, aberdeed or whoever was doing well at that time.

As for Glory Hunters, well this is definately a problem for clubs other than Celtic and Rangers, however this phenomena IMO was first seen in the early/mid 80's when in Glasgow and the West, Aberdeen fans started springing up everywhere. Having said that, only around 7% of Celtic ST holders come from areas in Scotland further than 25 miles from Celtic Park. I think clubs in the North, East and South West lose more to Rangers than Celtic in this respect. Dumbarton, morton, Albion Rovers, Partick, Hamilton, Clyde and St Mirren lose more to Celtic however.

Much of the blame in ths lies with the media and its Glasgow centric view of the world - something which can also cause a LOT of friction between Celtic fans and sections of the media. Rather than write about other Scottish club's, they will simply make up negative nonsese about Celtic or print some pre arranged bluff from Murray.

Prices and all seater stadium don't help either. Most boys I grew up with, be it Celtic or Rangers, were taken to games as a "neutral" when their club was playing an away game in Dundee or Aberdeen. this no longer happens

More worrying is the saturation and absolutist coverage the EPL recieves, where you now have the scenario of it being veiwed as the centre of the football universe. First it was soem Scottich clubs being marginalised by the media, now its moving to the game in Scotland as a whole.

JackRegan
12-08-2009, 12:34 PM
Have you ever seen the dozens of buses leaving Haymarket etc every week either heading sor Darkheid or Greyskull. 30 buses with 40 in each bus, plus the hundreds going by train and cars, you're talking about 4-5,000 potential extra supporters Hibs or Hearts could have.

My next door neighbour is a Jambo and he wasn't happy when his laddie decided to support the Huns, another neighbour is a Celtic supporter purley because his family originally came from there and his dad was a Celtic man. Look around you and you'll see more and more kids wearing OF shirts, more than I ever remember seeing.


JC,

Sorry for appearing to get on your case, but Celtic have 4 supporters clubs in Edinburgh, two of who actually share a bus. The other is the Edinburgh and Heriot Watt Unis CSC, most of who's members are originally from Glasgow, Belfast and other parts of Ireland. I think you are overstating the numbers here . I would say celtic have less than 500 attending fans in Edinburgh, many of who will not be "natives" of Edinburgh, with maybe about 2,000/3,000 who claim to be Celtic fans.

Can't speak for der hun, but I reckon their numbers in Edinburgh will actually be less or around the same. Off the top of my head, I can count less than 20 CSCs from Caithness, Inverness, Grampian, Tayside, Dundee, Fife and the Lothians

J-C
12-08-2009, 01:17 PM
JC,

Sorry for appearing to get on your case, but Celtic have 4 supporters clubs in Edinburgh, two of who actually share a bus. The other is the Edinburgh and Heriot Watt Unis CSC, most of who's members are originally from Glasgow, Belfast and other parts of Ireland. I think you are overstating the numbers here . I would say celtic have less than 500 attending fans in Edinburgh, many of who will not be "natives" of Edinburgh, with maybe about 2,000/3,000 who claim to be Celtic fans.

Can't speak for der hun, but I reckon their numbers in Edinburgh will actually be less or around the same. Off the top of my head, I can count less than 20 CSCs from Caithness, Inverness, Grampian, Tayside, Dundee, Fife and the Lothians

That may be the official no. of supporters clubs, what about the non official ones. We have official buses going to away matches but also many more unofficial ones that also do them, infact we have just started an unofficial club in Corstorphine Edinburgh, which ran a couple of buses to the recent away games down south.
You've obviously never seen the hoardes of OF supporters entering Haymarket station every saturday going to the games. We're also talking about the surrounding areas Jack, Midlothian, E Lothian and even W Lothian, do you know the number of official supporters clubs from these areas.

Take your 500 missing fans, add the unofficial buses and then double that with the no. going by train and you'll easily get to 2,000.

JackRegan
12-08-2009, 01:55 PM
That may be the official no. of supporters clubs, what about the non official ones. We have official buses going to away matches but also many more unofficial ones that also do them, infact we have just started an unofficial club in Corstorphine Edinburgh, which ran a couple of buses to the recent away games down south.
You've obviously never seen the hoardes of OF supporters entering Haymarket station every saturday going to the games. We're also talking about the surrounding areas Jack, Midlothian, E Lothian and even W Lothian, do you know the number of official supporters clubs from these areas.

Take your 500 missing fans, add the unofficial buses and then double that with the no. going by train and you'll easily get to 2,000.

I know that as a result of much of Scotland's mining communities moving from parts of Ayrshire and North and East Glasgow through to Mid Lothian, there would be a lot of OF fans moving through - for instance Celtic seem to have a lot of fans in Prestonpans.

CSCs in the Lothians I can think of: Edinburgh No.1, Brother Walfrid CSC, E&HW Uni CSC, South Edinburgh CSC, Dalkeith CSC, Musselburgh CSC, Bathgate and Armadale CSC.

Not sure about unoffical ones as they would not be able to get tickets for away games - I used to be a convenor of a bus and these were the ones I recognised.

Also, you're right I have never seenthe amount of Celtic fans at Haymarket on a Celtic home game.

What does surpirse me though is the amount of kids/teenagers who come from, lets just say "non traditional Celtic families", i.e a combination of West Coast, Working CLass and Catholic, supporting Celtic. Apparently places like South Queensferry, Linlithgow, Dunblane, Bridge of Allan etc (not yer usual Celtic haunts it has to be said) have growing numbers of Celtic fans.

having said that, I do think the influence Celtic (and Rangers) have outwith their tradition heartlands is over stated and I think its more a case of the game losing people as opposed to the individual clubs.

J-C
12-08-2009, 02:15 PM
I know that as a result of much of Scotland's mining communities moving from parts of Ayrshire and North and East Glasgow through to Mid Lothian, there would be a lot of OF fans moving through - for instance Celtic seem to have a lot of fans in Prestonpans.

CSCs in the Lothians I can think of: Edinburgh No.1, Brother Walfrid CSC, E&HW Uni CSC, South Edinburgh CSC, Dalkeith CSC, Musselburgh CSC, Bathgate and Armadale CSC.

Not sure about unoffical ones as they would not be able to get tickets for away games - I used to be a convenor of a bus and these were the ones I recognised.

Also, you're right I have never seenthe amount of Celtic fans at Haymarket on a Celtic home game.

What does surpirse me though is the amount of kids/teenagers who come from, lets just say "non traditional Celtic families", i.e a combination of West Coast, Working CLass and Catholic, supporting Celtic. Apparently places like South Queensferry, Linlithgow, Dunblane, Bridge of Allan etc (not yer usual Celtic haunts it has to be said) have growing numbers of Celtic fans.

having said that, I do think the influence Celtic (and Rangers) have outwith their tradition heartlands is over stated and I think its more a case of the game losing people as opposed to the individual clubs.


That's 8 supporters clubs, say running 3 buses each at 40 per bus = approx 800, double that for the train supporters and you're nearly at 2,000.
I don't think I've seen so many kids in Edinburgh wearing OF shirts as I have in the past 4-5 years, my next door neighbour who's a Jambo was very upset when his son declared himself a Rangers fan a few years back.

Also the no. of people who support the OF due to parentage or grandparents etc coming originally from Glasgow, never going to the games mind cause they're in Glasgow and too hard to get to, even though ER and PBS are a 20 mins bus journey away.

I do think less people are getting involved in football nowadays and kids have more things to do on saturdays compared to 30 -40 years ago but you can't deny the glory hunters are getting more each year, look at Man U, famous for having more supporters outside Manchester than within it.

Liberal Hibby
12-08-2009, 03:41 PM
Taking London Hearts and Wakeyhibee's figures together the early 80s really was the nadir for Edinburgh football crowds:

Hibs

79/80 9564
80/81 4460
81/82 7445
82/83 7109
83/84 8334
84/85 7425

Hearts

79/80 5512
80/81 6534
81/82 4256
82/83 5453
83/84 10102
84/85 10016

And if the 79/80 figure for Hibs was held up by the 'George Best' effect things would have been even worse.

jgl07
12-08-2009, 05:05 PM
Hibs were getting regular crowds of 25,000+ with a high of I think 30,000 in 1952ish. What has happened since then, are the kids not getting involved, well I don't think that's it cause there's plenty youngsters still going to the games. No difference in the catchment areas, still coming from surrounding parts of Edinburgh, so it's probably 2 things that have cased attendances to drop.

1. Team performaces and stability of the club.
2. More glory hunting fans either going to OF games, remember OF crowds have increased and our decreased since the mid 80's.


Apart from the occasional cup run, we haven't even come close to challeging the OF for the league, our performances have been up and down like a whores drawers and this frustrates supporters. Back in the 70's when we had a very decent team we were regularly splitting the OF and crowds were of a decent size. Nowadays the crowds show the expectancy of our team, very little money, regular changing of managers and our best players being sold to make ends meet and keep us out of debt. Youngsters grow up seeing the OF on tv every other game and regularly in Europe and want to support a winning team, so allegiance is switched and another supporter is lost.
As has been pointed out, Hibs could pull in very big crowds of up to 45,000 in the 1970s, usually against Celtic, Rangers or Hearts, the general attendance level was no higher than now and in some cases lower.

In 1972-73 for example, Rangers drew a crowd of 33,356; Hearts 21,221; Celtic 45,443.

The home matches against Arbroath drew only 7,000; Motherwell 8,614; and Airdrie 10,000.

The last time that Hibs split the OF was 1994-95 which co-incided with their lowest average crowd of the last twety years at 8,782.

The relegation season saw some of the best average crowds over the same period at 12,029.

J-C
12-08-2009, 05:14 PM
As has been pointed out, Hibs could pull in very big crowds of up to 45,000 in the 1970s, usually against Celtic, Rangers or Hearts, the general attendance level was no higher than now and in some cases lower.

In 1972-73 for example, Rangers drew a crowd of 33,356; Hearts 21,221; Celtic 45,443.

The home matches against Arbroath drew only 7,000; Motherwell 8,614; and Airdrie 10,000.

The last time that Hibs split the OF was 1994-95 which co-incided with their lowest average crowd of the last twety years at 8,782.

The relegation season saw some of the best average crowds over the same period at 12,029.

I agree but funny how the OF support has increased considerably since the 70's and 80's and the rest of us have stayed the same or even dropped.

Joe Baker II
17-08-2009, 05:31 PM
Yes I agree with you, the point I was trying to make which I think has been lost is the reasons both Norwich and Celtic get 'good crowds' are for completely different reasons:

Norwich get good crowds because they are well supported in their local area (Norwich & Norfolk as a whole) this is mostly due to their isolation and lock of competition.
Celtic get big crowds, yes they are from a big city, they attract a huge number of 'glory hunters', people who want to follow a team that wins a lot which you will always get in whatever country your in, but the sectarian element is a huge factor in drawing theirs (and Rangers) support in Scotland.

I disagree to a point that Scottish clubs support (not just Hibs) is not as big as it could/should be in comparison to to some English clubs because of the product on offer. Some folk are too quick sometimes to undermine the Scottish game, which I think is unfair & it compares well to English football IMO.

IF the product on offer is an issue then that again comes down to the OF's domination keeping other clubs back from from fulfilling their potential. Its a vicious circle.
In conclusion, its the OF that are the reason for any lack of competition and low crowds at certain other clubs and the reason why the OP asked why a club like Norwich will end the season with a probable average attendance about 10K more than ours.
OF GTF

Will resurrect this thread having just looked at Saturday's crowds in Scotland and the Football League which think show that Norwich not a typical case to compare oursleves against:

In 6 Division 1 (2) Hibs official crowd of 13,426 was exceeded in 6 games, 6 home teams attracted less. Only 3 games (Newcastle, Forest, Ipswich) has substantially larger attendances.

In Division 2 (3) no games exceeded out attendance and only one (Huddersfield who are former champions) were close - albeit the 4 teams (Leeds, Norwich, Charlton, Southampton) who may have exceeded 13,000 were all away from home. 6 games had smaller crowds than the SPL's smallest crowd on Saturday and for 5 of these there were higher crowds in Scottish Division 1 (2) on Saturday, also rumours that Raith v Dundee official crowd of just under 5,000 was significantly understated.

In Division 3 (4) no games other than Bradford (who had 11,000 albeit a club known for overstating attendances) were close to Hibs crowd and in fact only Grimsby was even close to the SPL's smallest crowd on Saturday (St Johnstone). The Scottish Division 1 (2) had crowds that exceeded 9 out of 12 of the Division 3 attendances on Saturday.

The Old Brigade
17-08-2009, 09:38 PM
Taking London Hearts and Wakeyhibee's figures together the early 80s really was the nadir for Edinburgh football crowds:

Hibs

79/80 9564
80/81 4460
81/82 7445
82/83 7109
83/84 8334
84/85 7425

Hearts

79/80 5512
80/81 6534
81/82 4256
82/83 5453
83/84 10102
84/85 10016

And if the 79/80 figure for Hibs was held up by the 'George Best' effect things would have been even worse.

Caveat is suspicion clubs understated attendances at that time though think 1981-82 were lowest recorded attendnaces in Scotland.

Don't think you are fullyright about Best effect - our crowds were down from 1978-79, season before Best and fell further during his second season (though he did not play much) although that was obviously down to relegation. Though has to be acknowledged that he was a crowd puller at other grounds and our away support increased.

I see from the stats our crowds went down 20% when we were relegated in 1997, this should not come as a surprise but it is astonishing how many Hibs fans genuinely believe they got increased crowds in Division 1.

And would be interested in any club historians could account for1/3 drop in attendances from 1961-63?

Andy74
18-08-2009, 09:43 AM
I see from the stats our crowds went down 20% when we were relegated in 1997, this should not come as a surprise but it is astonishing how many Hibs fans genuinely believe they got increased crowds in Division 1.



We got virtually no away support and certainly did not have the benefit of 6 old firm and hearts visits a season.

I think the actual Hibs suppport was certainly not down and perhaps up a bit over that season.

Ray_
18-08-2009, 10:08 AM
Talking of Norwich, Lambert & management team have left Col U to join the canaries, Lambert's getting slaughtered in this part of the world.

Part/Time Supporter
18-08-2009, 10:16 AM
As has been pointed out, Hibs could pull in very big crowds of up to 45,000 in the 1970s, usually against Celtic, Rangers or Hearts, the general attendance level was no higher than now and in some cases lower.

In 1972-73 for example, Rangers drew a crowd of 33,356; Hearts 21,221; Celtic 45,443.

The home matches against Arbroath drew only 7,000; Motherwell 8,614; and Airdrie 10,000.

The last time that Hibs split the OF was 1994-95 which co-incided with their lowest average crowd of the last twety years at 8,782.

The relegation season saw some of the best average crowds over the same period at 12,029.

Capacity was severely restricted that year (both end stands were being built)

NAE NOOKIE
18-08-2009, 10:24 AM
I only have to look out of my Galashiels living room window to see the OF affect. Loads of kids running about with OF tops on and not a Hibs or Yam top to be seen. Its even worse on a sunny day in the town centre, though you do see the odd Man Utd top.

The population of what should be the normal OF catchment area, as far as I am aware, is around 1,000,000.

So if you take the average home gate of both the ugly sisters together of around 100,000 that means that 10% of people in that area go to football every fortnight. That doesnt even include supporters of Partick, Clyde, Morton, St Mirren etc.

Not a chance that that will be the case, so the chances are that the thoery that they filch significant support from Edinburgh and elsewhere does stand up IMO.

The thing that really does bug me is when any OF spokesman comes out with their " we subsidise the rest of Scottish football " nonsense.

If the total of their fans who dont have a 'G' in their postcode went to see their home town clubs on a Saturday I would guess that several East Coast clubs would see an increase of around 5% or more on their average attendance ( Fife clubs around 10% ) and the OF would be down by around 30% each.

cockneymike
18-08-2009, 10:29 AM
"The last time that Hibs split the OF was 1994-95 which co-incided with their lowest average crowd of the last twety years at 8,782."

If I remember rightly that was the season we were building the two end stands, so the capacity was dramatically reduced for the last 8 games or so. I also remember bolting out of school sharpish to get there at half time to see us playing Motherwell (?) at 3pm on a Wednesday as we didn't have floodlights at the time!

cockneymike
18-08-2009, 10:34 AM
I only have to look out of my Galashiels living room window to see the OF affect. Loads of kids running about with OF tops on and not a Hibs or Yam top to be seen. Its even worse on a sunny day in the town centre, though you do see the odd Man Utd top.

I don't disagree, but could that also be a feature of the fact that they're the only football jerseys in their local shop?

As Confuscious once said: What comes first, the fan or the kid wearing the jersey?

NAE NOOKIE
18-08-2009, 10:44 AM
I don't disagree, but could that also be a feature of the fact that they're the only football jerseys in their local shop?

As Confuscious once said: What comes first, the fan or the kid wearing the jersey?

Good point.

But what are the rest doing about it.

Even if Hibs stuck up a poster in Gala with ' support your local pro team ' on it it would be a start. No?

cockneymike
18-08-2009, 10:54 AM
Even if Hibs stuck up a poster in Gala with ' support your local pro team ' on it it would be a start. No?

Quite possibly, but I think it comes down to success or glory; if/ when we have a team that can consistently get into Europe/ be on the telly, win trophies more regularly than every 20 years, and edge closer to the OF, the fans will come.

I think that there are tens of thousands of people that would love to support a non OF team that were winning and playing well, but it's about consistenly doing that over 4 or 5 years, and then people would get into a habit of supporting Hibs. The problem is that in the last 20 years, the OF's dominance has been so great that they have battered everyone else into submission, and the habit of supporting your local team has, for many people, been broken.

I think that that can happen if we finish the stadium and get the team playing well, but unfortunately it takes time and there is no silver bullet.

NAE NOOKIE
18-08-2009, 11:06 AM
Quite possibly, but I think it comes down to success or glory; if/ when we have a team that can consistently get into Europe/ be on the telly, win trophies more regularly than every 20 years, and edge closer to the OF, the fans will come.

I think that there are tens of thousands of people that would love to support a non OF team that were winning and playing well, but it's about consistenly doing that over 4 or 5 years, and then people would get into a habit of supporting Hibs. The problem is that in the last 20 years, the OF's dominance has been so great that they have battered everyone else into submission, and the habit of supporting your local team has, for many people, been broken.

I think that that can happen if we finish the stadium and get the team playing well, but unfortunately it takes time and there is no silver bullet.

Agree with the stadium bit, if kids see a ground like the ones they see on the telly it does have an impression on them.

And a team to go with it would be even better.