Hitler...

[Speedy]

One of the best leaders of the last 100 years?

(This is merely discussing his leadership skills and not his ideas)

[(((Fergus)))]

too bossy really, people weren't allowed to disagree with him or use their own initiative so he limited the potential available to him. took him just 12 years to destroy one of europe's major nations, kill about 10% of its population and shrink its landmass by around 50%.

[LiverpoolHibs]

One of the best leaders of the last 100 years?

(This is merely discussing his leadership skills and not his ideas)

How do you separate the two?

[J-C]

One of the most ruthless, evil murdering dictators the world has ever seen, how someone could actually think this guy was a good leader is beyond me. :confused:

Commited genocide where ever he went, tried to exterminate a whole race of people by gassing them in their millions, oh ye, lets have another leader like that to deal with, oh! wait a minute we already have a few contenders.......Mugabe, Kim Jong-il, Omar al-Bashir and Pervez Musharraf.

[Killiehibbie]

One of the best leaders of the last 100 years?

(This is merely discussing his leadership skills and not his ideas)

Looking at the time you posted this is it safe to say you wouldn't have been in a fit state to drive or operate machinery?

[Speedy]

Looking at the time you posted this is it safe to say you wouldn't have been in a fit state to drive or operate machinery?

That would be a safe assumption

[JE89]

He worked wonders for the German economy. Made sure he was left with no opposition.
After the demiliterisation of the Rhineland, he marched in with troops, knew that France and Britain couldn't afford war at that point and if they had made any approach he would have instantly withdrawn, but they didn't and he had troops on the German/French border.
His beliefs were shocking, but in terms of leadership I think he was a extremely intelligent.
Although if GBR and France hadn't left such sanctions on Germany after WW1, I doubt he would have gotten into power.

[da-robster]

He worked wonders for the German economy. Made sure he was left with no opposition.
After the demiliterisation of the Rhineland, he marched in with troops, knew that France and Britain couldn't afford war at that point and if they had made any approach he would have instantly withdrawn, but they didn't and he had troops on the German/French border.
His beliefs were shocking, but in terms of leadership I think he was a extremely intelligent.
Although if GBR and France hadn't left such sanctions on Germany after WW1, I doubt he would have gotten into power.

But if we look at what he left at the end we'll see how good a ruler he was. He left the biggest war the world had ever seen a broken country millions dead and a dreadful economy he mass murdered millions of german citizens for no reason and had an incredibly corrupt government. Even without the horrendous mass murder he commited he would still have been an incredably bad ruler.

Finally the reason most germans would have followed at the end was simply they would have been killed if they didn't. There's a big difference between you ruling people and you forcing people to be ruled by you. He was however an emmensly charasmatic man.

[Phil D. Rolls]

One of the best leaders of the last 100 years?

(This is merely discussing his leadership skills and not his ideas)

Not really, he totally *rsed up the War. Out of his depth.

[Part/Time Supporter]

He worked wonders for the German economy. Made sure he was left with no opposition.
After the demiliterisation of the Rhineland, he marched in with troops, knew that France and Britain couldn't afford war at that point and if they had made any approach he would have instantly withdrawn, but they didn't and he had troops on the German/French border.
His beliefs were shocking, but in terms of leadership I think he was a extremely intelligent.
Although if GBR and France hadn't left such sanctions on Germany after WW1, I doubt he would have gotten into power.

Erm no, Hjalmar Schacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjalmar_Schacht) did by implementing Keynesian policies in response to the depression. And if you want to go further back, Gustav Stresemann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Stresemann) restructured the economy and got the country out of some of the more punishing elements of the Versailles Treaty, before the Wall St collapse brought the whole financing system down. Hitler had naff all to do with any of that, if anything he ****ed up the German war economy. For example, Nazi policy insisted that mothers had to stay in the home, which meant that Speer had to use (inefficient) forced foreign labour.

[Tazio]

He may have been a paranoid, delusional genocidal maniac. But you have to say, they did have smart outfits compared to the British army.

[Onceinawhile]

He may have been a paranoid, delusional genocidal maniac. But you have to say, they did have smart outfits compared to the British army.

that's because Hugo Boss made them:agree:

[Dashing Bob S]

He worked wonders for the German economy. Made sure he was left with no opposition.
After the demiliterisation of the Rhineland, he marched in with troops, knew that France and Britain couldn't afford war at that point and if they had made any approach he would have instantly withdrawn, but they didn't and he had troops on the German/French border.
His beliefs were shocking, but in terms of leadership I think he was a extremely intelligent.
Although if GBR and France hadn't left such sanctions on Germany after WW1, I doubt he would have gotten into power.

Not really. He let his poisonous ideology triumph over practical military decision making. The manpower and resources deployed to run the death camps detracted from the war effort. The fighting on the second (Russian) front was also a serious blunder which probably cost them the war.

[lobster]

Egomaniac who made catastrophic military blunders thankfully.
Should have gone to Art School (and then formed a crappy music group!)
Had he done so Palestine would be free today instead of a major source of global insecurity. According to national socialist doctrine the will of the Fuhrer was the expression of the will of the people. When the outcome of the war became clear he sacrificed the people and the country. An anti-Leader.
IMO Great leaders are selfless.
Reputedly a terrific dancer (according to Mel Brooks that is :wink:)

[(((Fergus)))]

Egomaniac who made catastrophic military blunders thankfully.
Should have gone to Art School (and then formed a crappy music group!)
Had he done so Palestine would be free today instead of a major source of global insecurity. According to national socialist doctrine the will of the Fuhrer was the expression of the will of the people. When the outcome of the war became clear he sacrificed the people and the country. An anti-Leader.
IMO Great leaders are selfless.
Reputedly a terrific dancer (according to Mel Brooks that is :wink:)

unfortunately, he was ****ing pish at art too...

http://www.hitler.org/art/women/eva1.jpg

[lobster]

unfortunately, he was ****ing pish at art too...

http://www.hitler.org/art/women/eva1.jpg
Go, that is bad :agree:

[(((Fergus)))]

Go, that is bad :agree:

That was Eva Braun as well. I reckon he must have done it in the bunker and then she shot him. :greengrin

There more shockers here: http://www.hitler.org/art/

[lobster]

That was Eva Braun as well. I reckon he must have done it in the bunker and then she shot him. :greengrin

There more shockers here: http://www.hitler.org/art/

:faf::top marks

[Tomsk]

too bossy really, people weren't allowed to disagree with him or use their own initiative so he limited the potential available to him. took him just 12 years to destroy one of europe's major nations, kill about 10% of its population and shrink its landmass by around 50%.

Oh, too true. He was right old bossy boots. And if he didn't get his way you'd get a total hissy fit.

And, what a temper! He was like a fiend sometimes. Ranting and raving. Barely had a civil word to say about anyone.

Of course, he hardly had anyone he could call a friend at the end.

[Oscar T Grouch]

If he was a great leader shirley he would have won the war no? An evil little phychotic maniac IMHO, may as well as ask the same of Stalin, ruled wi an iron fist, killed a lot of people and feked up the country he was running

[Killiehibbie]

If he was a great leader shirley he would have won the war no? An evil little phychotic maniac IMHO, may as well as ask the same of Stalin, ruled wi an iron fist, killed a lot of people and feked up the country he was running

I remember asking the question How could Hitler and Stalin be at opposite ends of the political spectrum but the results are the same? Best answer I got was they're all out to get you.

[Hibrandenburg]

Erm no, Hjalmar Schacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjalmar_Schacht) did by implementing Keynesian policies in response to the depression. And if you want to go further back, Gustav Stresemann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Stresemann) restructured the economy and got the country out of some of the more punishing elements of the Versailles Treaty, before the Wall St collapse brought the whole financing system down. Hitler had naff all to do with any of that, if anything he ****ed up the German war economy. For example, Nazi policy insisted that mothers had to stay in the home, which meant that Speer had to use (inefficient) forced foreign labour.

:agree:

He also used about 100yrs worth of Germany's resources within a few years meaning he had to go to war to ensure his people didn't starve, not that he gave a toss about them.

[--------]

He may have been a paranoid, delusional genocidal maniac. But you have to say, they did have smart outfits compared to the British army.


Not on the Eastern Front they didn't. You're mistaking Hollywood for reality, Taz. Mike Caine might look cool in "The Eagle has Landed", but the Wehrmacht froze their bollocks off thanks to the Great Leader forgetting to order winter overcoats for them in 1941.

He was in power for 12 years.

In that time he started a World War which reduced the majority of the German cities to rubble and killed several million Germans.

He was directly responsible for the murder of 6 and a half million Jews, many of whom were German citizens, many of whom possessed skills that would have been useful to Germany in the fighting of the war, many of whom were men of military age, many of whom had actually fought for Germany in the FIRST World War.

He was a military moron who thought he was a genius.

Every time he intervened directly in the conduct of the German Armed Forces, disaster followed. (Think Stalingrad. Think the Ardennes. Think Bismarck.)

He had some extremely nasty personal habits - see Ronald Hayter's "Hitler and Geli" about his affair with his niece Angela in the early 1930's. (Especially the chapter entitled "Things he makes me do....")

Not only was he so monumentally stupid as to invade the Soviet Union in the summer of 1941, he compounded his idiocy by declaring war (entirely unnecessarily) on the USA in the December. (When the news broke, Churchill literally couldn't believe that Hitler could have been so stupid; he knew that the war was won, right there and then.)

By the late thirties Germany was heading for a major economic crash, thanks to Hitler's expenditure on armaments. the only way that that crisis could be averted or postponed was for war to break out. Lucky Germany! No economic crash - just the total destruction of the nation and the fear and loathing of most of the 'civilised' world instead.

Apart from that.... :rolleyes:

Mind you - he was also a non-smoking, non-drinking, vegetarian nature-freak who liked Wagner's music.

But there's always a bad side to everybody. :devil:

[chorley_fm]

I vote no

[Phil D. Rolls]

Anyone know if Hitler was on Cocaine, or Amphetamines? I'm sure Mussolini must have been with all the gesticulating and contorted facial expressions.

[hibsdaft]

i think Hitler answered this discussion on the 30th of April 1945 when he shot himself in the head.

not so many followed him on that one funnily enough.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Anyone know if Hitler was on Cocaine, or Amphetamines? I'm sure Mussolini must have been with all the gesticulating and contorted facial expressions.

I'm not sure, but he was apparently near-constantly injected with a protein solution made of crushed bulls testicles.

And the German army, navy and air-force were given a regular supply of Crystal Meth, so who knows...

[RmR]

Anyone know if Hitler was on Cocaine, or Amphetamines? I'm sure Mussolini must have been with all the gesticulating and contorted facial expressions.

old Adolf was a big time speed freak, along with a range of other dubious substances. his personal Doctor administered a range of interesting drugs.

Theodor_Morell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Morell)

[CraigK]

Not really. He let his poisonous ideology triumph over practical military decision making. The manpower and resources deployed to run the death camps detracted from the war effort. The fighting on the second (Russian) front was also a serious blunder which probably cost them the war.
:agree:
Add to that declaring war on the USA after Pearl Harbor.

[Part/Time Supporter]

:agree:
Add to that declaring war on the USA after Pearl Harbor.

:agree:

Roosevelt would have struggled to get a declaration of war on Germany through Congress if Hitler hadn't declared war on the United States. There would have been a strand of opinion in the US that they should concentrate their resources on defeating the Japanese.

[RyeSloan]

One of the best leaders of the last 100 years?

(This is merely discussing his leadership skills and not his ideas)

What makes a good leader...the ability to listen, the ability to delegate, the ability to promote on merit not personal likes, the ability to admit you are wrong and then put into action a new agenda, the ability to gain respect without using fear....yeah there is plenty more but without the likes of the above you are never going to be a good leader, something Hitler clearly wasn't.

You shouldn't mistake an iron fist, ruthless application of ideals and a myopic will to see his vision turn to reality with anything to do with leadship....most 'great' dictators dispite their stragely similar desire to be called the great leader are normally very good examples of what people in leadership positions should NOT do (unless they want to try and ruel the world of course!!!)

[Jonnyboy]

One of the best leaders of the last 100 years?

(This is merely discussing his leadership skills and not his ideas)

Sorry but you can't really separate the two. His 'ideas' led to him leading the way he did.

Hitler and his henchmen were guilty of slaughtering millions of people. The attempted destruction of the entire Jewish faith and killing of 6m plus should be added to the murder of Gypsies, the mentally and physically disabled and hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers that had been captured and should have been POW's in terms of the Geneva convention.

These figures are almost too staggering to comprehend. Imagine filling Easter Road Stadium each day with 17,500 new people of those mentioned above and killing each and every one of them every day for well over a year and you might get an idea

[Phil D. Rolls]

Sorry but you can't really separate the two. His 'ideas' led to him leading the way he did.

Hitler and his henchmen were guilty of slaughtering millions of people. The attempted destruction of the entire Jewish faith and killing of 6m plus should be added to the murder of Gypsies, the mentally and physically disabled and hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers that had been captured and should have been POW's in terms of the Geneva convention.

These figures are almost too staggering to comprehend. Imagine filling Easter Road Stadium each day with 17,500 new people of those mentioned above and killing each and every one of them every day for well over a year and you might get an idea

It's interesting how often people overlook, or are simply unaware that the Holocaust didn't just affect Jews. In Amsterdam last week I thought it was ironic that many of those queuing to get into Anne Frank's house, were unaware of the Homomonument on the other side of the Westerkerk. It is in the shape of a pink triangle and commermorates all those who have been persecuted for their sexuality (including many who went to the death camps_.

I was surprised to find that my girlfriend wasn't aware that gays had been persecuted. Maybe the Jews need to promote a wider understanding of the Holocaust, and that other people were affected by it too.

[Just Jimmy]

It's interesting how often people overlook, or are simply unaware that the Holocaust didn't just affect Jews. In Amsterdam last week I thought it was ironic that many of those queuing to get into Anne Frank's house, were unaware of the Homomonument on the other side of the Westerkerk. It is in the shape of a pink triangle and commermorates all those who have been persecuted for their sexuality (including many who went to the death camps_.

I was surprised to find that my girlfriend wasn't aware that gays had been persecuted. Maybe the Jews need to promote a wider understanding of the Holocaust, and that other people were affected by it too.

Bauman - Modernity and the holocaust.

He argues that the holocaust was a product of modernity and has been simplified in time as a 'jewish issue' when in fact 20 million were murdered not just 6 million jews. Been a year or so since I read it but one of the great sociological works on the subject.

[ancient hibee]

Useless.

Despite leading by a street at half time lost easily.

[(((Fergus)))]

It's interesting how often people overlook, or are simply unaware that the Holocaust didn't just affect Jews. In Amsterdam last week I thought it was ironic that many of those queuing to get into Anne Frank's house, were unaware of the Homomonument on the other side of the Westerkerk. It is in the shape of a pink triangle and commermorates all those who have been persecuted for their sexuality (including many who went to the death camps_.

I was surprised to find that my girlfriend wasn't aware that gays had been persecuted. Maybe the Jews need to promote a wider understanding of the Holocaust, and that other people were affected by it too.

And jehovah's witnesses, for some reason. :confused: