Black men, white grannies, top blonde totty...

[Hibbyradge]

..brown men, Lads in England football shirts, posh dafties in fancy dress, beardie blokes with 70's style Scotland tops, lassies waving union flags and muscle bound crazies.

All supporting Andy Murray like their lives depended on it.

That's a good thing, yeah?

Could Scottish folk be as warm hearted towards an English sportsman?

[Hibby D]

..brown men, Lads in England football shirts, posh dafties in fancy dress, beardie blokes with 70's style Scotland tops, lassies waving union flags and muscle bound crazies.

All supporting Andy Murray like their lives depended on it.

That's a good thing, yeah?

Could Scottish folk be as warm hearted towards an English sportsman?

Some could yes - but we've still got a long way to go before the "opressed" amongst us cheer on an English sporting hero or team.

I'm almost there now I have to say :agree: but that's taken a long time and mostly by virtue of having an English siter-in-law who taught me the error of my ways :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

I could never support the England football team and I will always support whoever they are playing. The same goes for their rugby and cricket teams.

However, I don't mind supporting English sportsmen and women who compete for Britain, such as at the Olympics and tennis.

[hibsdaft]

All supporting Andy Murray like their lives depended on it.

aye, now he's looking like he can win it.

[Pretty Boy]

..brown men, Lads in England football shirts, posh dafties in fancy dress, beardie blokes with 70's style Scotland tops, lassies waving union flags and muscle bound crazies.

All supporting Andy Murray like their lives depended on it.

That's a good thing, yeah?

Could Scottish folk be as warm hearted towards an English sportsman?

I could, i've travelled to Manchester several times to support Ricky Hatton.

I have no problem with England or English sportsmen, it's the media nonsense i can't stand.

[Gatecrasher]

I am a Mclaren/Lewis Hamilton fan, i support any british drivers in F1.

i like watching England football team, and i like to see them do well in tournements exept when they come accross scotland, the same would go for any british team.

same with boxing i would chose any english man fighting a yank for example and again that would be the same for any british fighter.

I dont really like the whole im scottish so i hate england thing, i think a riverly is good but for me its only when its scotland v england and no other time.

[--------]

..brown men, Lads in England football shirts, posh dafties in fancy dress, beardie blokes with 70's style Scotland tops, lassies waving union flags and muscle bound crazies.

All supporting Andy Murray like their lives depended on it.

That's a good thing, yeah?

Could Scottish folk be as warm hearted towards an English sportsman?



Sure.

I supported Tim Henman when he was playing, and I'd have loved to see him win a major tournament.

In individual sports like golf, tennis, rowing, boxing and so on I don't think about the guy's nationality too much. I'd rather see an Englishman do well in any of those than a non-Brit. I'd love to see Jensen Button win the F1 Championship this year, but some of the criticism being thrown at Lewis Hamilton seems to me to be both ignorant and prejudiced. Some journos (and F1 fans) aren't too pleased about the pigmentation of the guy's skin, IMHO. I supported him, and I supported Nigel Mansell, and Damon Hill, and David Coulthard, and Eddie Irvine, and GRAHAM Hill, and Jackie Stewart, and Jim Clark.... And yes, I AM that old.

I admit I do support whoever's playing against England football teams and rugby teams, but that's as much down to the media hype as anything else. I dislike it when Scots journos start the same nonsense about Scottish sportsmen and teams just as much - some of the nonsense about Chris Hoy, for example, really annoyed me. Chris himself deserves all the credit he gets - tremendous sportsman who comes over as a really decent guy. Same goes for the hype surrounding Andy Murray right now.

The reason I impartially support whoever happens to be England's opponents in football or rugby is that the media hype annoys me in the same way as it would if I had to read newspapers and listen to radio and watch TV reports about Heart of Midlothian as if I should automatically wish THEM well just because they see themselves as the "big" team in the city of Edinburgh...

[Dashing Bob S]

Sure.

I supported Tim Henman when he was playing, and I'd have loved to see him win a major tournament.

In individual sports like golf, tennis, rowing, boxing and so on I don't think about the guy's nationality too much. I'd rather see an Englishman do well in any of those than a non-Brit. I'd love to see Jensen Button win the F1 Championship this year, but some of the criticism being thrown at Lewis Hamilton seems to me to be both ignorant and prejudiced. Some journos (and F1 fans) aren't too pleased about the pigmentation of the guy's skin, IMHO. I supported him, and I supported Nigel Mansell, and Damon Hill, and David Coulthard, and Eddie Irvine, and GRAHAM Hill, and Jackie Stewart, and Jim Clark.... And yes, I AM that old.

I admit I do support whoever's playing against England football teams and rugby teams, but that's as much down to the media hype as anything else. I dislike it when Scots journos start the same nonsense about Scottish sportsmen and teams just as much - some of the nonsense about Chris Hoy, for example, really annoyed me. Chris himself deserves all the credit he gets - tremendous sportsman who comes over as a really decent guy. Same goes for the hype surrounding Andy Murray right now.

The reason I impartially support whoever happens to be England's opponents in football or rugby is that the media hype annoys me in the same way as it would if I had to read newspapers and listen to radio and watch TV reports about Heart of Midlothian as if I should automatically wish THEM well just because they see themselves as the "big" team in the city of Edinburgh...


Therein lies the rub.

Was a runner as as a boy and passionately supported Ovett and Cram but hated Coe. Some English sportsmen I like, others seem to represent the worst of the little Englishness you see trumpeted in the media by bigots or people trying to be (yawn) controversial.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The Beeb were interviewing some of the dafties that go along to Wimbers and asking the question "is Murray British or Scottish". I'd have thought the only person who can answer that is him, and he's been pretty open about where his allegiances lie.

Doesn't stop some of these mem sahibs insisting that the answer to the question is "British". That sort of thing, the England shirts, and even the UJs, suggest to me that whether he is Scottish or not, he'll be what THEY decide he is.

I don't remember him trying to win over their support at any point, but they have decided he is one of them. For me the problem is that "British" and "English" are the same thing in their mind. As far as they are concerned Murray is an Englishman with a Scottish accent.

He'll be Scottish as soon as he gets knocked out. Just like Lewis Hamilton is black again, now that the isn't winning.

[Sylar]

I don't go as far as to cheer on whoever England are playing these days, in the way that I used to. I've grown to realise that I don't care about England, Wales, NI or any other international country, unless it somehow affects the position/outcome of the US or Scotland.

As for Murray, he'll never view himself as "British" I don't think. He wears his patriotism on his sleeve (literally) and last night, seemed to chose a small section of fans within the crowd who appeared Scottish (with the wearing of Scotland tops, painted faces etc).

Credit where it's due to the BBC News which followed - the constantly described him as the Scot, as opposed to the "British no.1".

It is easier to cheer on English sportsman in an individual capacity - watching golf, I don't mind if any of the young English players win on Tour, but in a team sense, I can't quite get there.

[McSwanky]

He'll be Scottish as soon as he gets knocked out. Just like Lewis Hamilton is black again, now that the isn't winning.

Age old argument there, and a pretty lazy 'observation' from you. I refute your claim, he is often referred to as Scottish in the media (winning or losing), and I'm sure English people are completely aware of the fact.

(If your comment was made with tongue in cheek then I whole heartedly apologise.)

What interests me is that being Scottish (or Welsh for that matter) is seen as worthy of comment, I can't recall Henman ever being called 'The English.' A bit like the commentators' tendency to call Federer 'the Swiss,' Nadal 'the Spanish' and Djokovic 'the Serb.' Seems a bit strange.

[Steve-O]

I supported Henman and have also supported the likes of Nigel Mansell, Damon Hill, Frank Bruno, Lennox Lewis etc etc :agree:

Never England as a team though :no way:

[khib70]

..brown men, Lads in England football shirts, posh dafties in fancy dress, beardie blokes with 70's style Scotland tops, lassies waving union flags and muscle bound crazies.

All supporting Andy Murray like their lives depended on it.

That's a good thing, yeah?

Could Scottish folk be as warm hearted towards an English sportsman?
Agree that the support for Murray was huge, and came from all directions. Disappointing not to see a Hibs top amongst them all , though:boo hoo:

Did anyone notice that the BBC cameraman, despite the huge and colourful crowd cut to a shot of the same three guys in straw hats waving UJ's after almost every point? What was that all about - relatives?

His alternative, and more interesting :drool: shot was of a well-equipped blonde lady wearing a low cut red top. Her habit of jumping up and down at regular intervals makes the cameraman's frequent cutaways to her both unsurprising and interesting.:greengrin

[PeeJay]

..brown men, Lads in England football shirts, posh dafties in fancy dress, beardie blokes with 70's style Scotland tops, lassies waving union flags and muscle bound crazies.

All supporting Andy Murray like their lives depended on it.

That's a good thing, yeah?

Could Scottish folk be as warm hearted towards an English sportsman?

I live in Germany and I'll support any British team (including England) or sportsperson when playing against 'Johnny Foreigner'. This isn't down to living abroad for so long - in 1966 - when ten and living at home - I supported England, and I was mighty chuffed when they won the World Cup and I was disappointed when they lost narrowly to Germany in 1970.

This whole Scottish "hatred" of English teams is embarrassingly infantile if you ask me: it smacks of a serious inferiority complex and a grotesquely immature attitude to British people on the part of the Scottish - time to get over it and start getting things right back home, instead of pointing and laughing at English failure, while ignoring Scotland's own lack of success!

To be honest, I even switched channels (once recently) when Scotland were playing, because the football was so dire and I watched England instead ... I wish them all the best in South Africa ... :sofa:

[MSK]

Agree that the support for Murray was huge, and came from all directions. Disappointing not to see a Hibs top amongst them all , though:boo hoo:

Did anyone notice that the BBC cameraman, despite the huge and colourful crowd cut to a shot of the same three guys in straw hats waving UJ's after almost every point? What was that all about - relatives?

His alternative, and more interesting :drool: shot was of a well-equipped blonde lady wearing a low cut red top. Her habit of jumping up and down at regular intervals makes the cameraman's frequent cutaways to her both unsurprising and interesting.:greengrinWhat a superb sight too..:greengrin

[Andy.1875]

What a superb sight too..:greengrin

Can't disagree with that :top marks

[Gatecrasher]

Sure.

I supported Tim Henman when he was playing, and I'd have loved to see him win a major tournament.

In individual sports like golf, tennis, rowing, boxing and so on I don't think about the guy's nationality too much. I'd rather see an Englishman do well in any of those than a non-Brit. I'd love to see Jensen Button win the F1 Championship this year, but some of the criticism being thrown at Lewis Hamilton seems to me to be both ignorant and prejudiced. Some journos (and F1 fans) aren't too pleased about the pigmentation of the guy's skin, IMHO. I supported him, and I supported Nigel Mansell, and Damon Hill, and David Coulthard, and Eddie Irvine, and GRAHAM Hill, and Jackie Stewart, and Jim Clark.... And yes, I AM that old.

I admit I do support whoever's playing against England football teams and rugby teams, but that's as much down to the media hype as anything else. I dislike it when Scots journos start the same nonsense about Scottish sportsmen and teams just as much - some of the nonsense about Chris Hoy, for example, really annoyed me. Chris himself deserves all the credit he gets - tremendous sportsman who comes over as a really decent guy. Same goes for the hype surrounding Andy Murray right now.

The reason I impartially support whoever happens to be England's opponents in football or rugby is that the media hype annoys me in the same way as it would if I had to read newspapers and listen to radio and watch TV reports about Heart of Midlothian as if I should automatically wish THEM well just because they see themselves as the "big" team in the city of Edinburgh...


i dont want to turn this into an F1 thread but :top marks

[lapsedhibee]

Did anyone notice that the BBC cameraman, despite the huge and colourful crowd cut to a shot of the same three guys in straw hats waving UJ's after almost every point? What was that all about - relatives?
Think you answered your own question there.



His alternative, and more interesting :drool: shot was of a well-equipped blonde lady wearing a low cut red top. Her habit of jumping up and down at regular intervals makes the cameraman's frequent cutaways to her both unsurprising and interesting.:greengrin
The slomo replay of that had Johnny Mac briefly speechless, it was that effective.:wink:

[--------]

Agree that the support for Murray was huge, and came from all directions. Disappointing not to see a Hibs top amongst them all , though:boo hoo:

Did anyone notice that the BBC cameraman, despite the huge and colourful crowd cut to a shot of the same three guys in straw hats waving UJ's after almost every point? What was that all about - relatives?

His alternative, and more interesting :drool: shot was of a well-equipped blonde lady wearing a low cut red top. Her habit of jumping up and down at regular intervals makes the cameraman's frequent cutaways to her both unsurprising and interesting.:greengrin

Behave yourself - she was his mother. :tsk tsk:



i dont want to turn this into an F1 thread but :top marks

F1's interesting in this context because you can have a British driver in a foreign car competing against a foreign driver in a British car.

Which one is it more acceptable to support?

(And if reports are true, you also have an English Chief Executive in Nazi jackboots and.... No, this is a family forum.)


I've always tended to want the British driver to win.

But I've always tended to favour Ferrari as a manufacturer.

[IWasThere2016]

Nah - my roots are Engerland and my mother was born there .. but its not on to even mildly dislike them IMHO :greengrin We must always cheer on their opponents .. MUCH MARE FUN! :thumbsup:

[J-C]

The Great Cause
The relationship between the nations of England and Scotland (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Scotland) by the 1280s was one of relatively harmonious coexistence.[111] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-110) The issue of homage did not reach the same level of controversy as it did in Wales; in 1278 King Alexander III of Scotland (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Alexander_III_of_Scotland) paid homage to Edward I, but apparently only for the lands he held of Edward in England.[112] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-111) Problems arose only with the Scottish succession crisis of the early 1290s. In the years from 1281 to 1284, Alexander's two sons and one daughter died in quick succession. Then, in 1286, King Alexander died himself, leaving as heir to the throne of Scotland Margaret (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Margaret,_Maid_of_Norway), born in 1283 to Alexander's daughter Margaret (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Margaret_of_Scotland,_Queen_of_Norway) and King Eric II of Norway (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Eric_II_of_Norway).[113] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-112) By the Treaty of Birgham (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Treaty_of_Birgham) it was agreed that Margaret should marry King Edward's son Edward of Carnarvon (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Edward_II_of_England), though Scotland would remain free of English overlordship (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Suzerainty).[114] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-113)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Coronation_Chair_and_Stone_of_Scone._Anonymous_Eng raver._Published_in_A_History_of_England_%281855%2 9.jpg/140px-Coronation_Chair_and_Stone_of_Scone._Anonymous_Eng raver._Published_in_A_History_of_England_%281855%2 9.jpg (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/File:Coronation_Chair_and_Stone_of_Scone._Anonymou s_Engraver._Published_in_A_History_of_England_(185 5).jpg) http://www.hibs.net/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/File:Coronation_Chair_and_Stone_of_Scone._Anonymou s_Engraver._Published_in_A_History_of_England_(185 5).jpg)
19th-century drawing of the Stone of Destiny (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Stone_of_Destiny). The Scottish coronation stone remained at Westminster until it was returned to Scotland in 1996.


Margaret, known as the Maid of Norway, sailed from Norway for Scotland in the autumn of 1290, but fell ill on the way and died in Orkney (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Orkney).[115] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-114) This left the country without an obvious heir, and led to the succession dispute known to history as the Great Cause (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Competitors_for_the_Crown_of_Scotland).[116] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-115) Even though as many as fourteen claimants put forward their claims to the title, the real contest was between John Balliol (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/John_of_Scotland) and Robert Bruce (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Robert_de_Brus,_5th_Lord_of_Annandale).[117] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-116) The Scottish magnates (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Magnate) made a request to Edward to arbitrate in the dispute.[118] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-117) At Birgham, with the prospect of a personal union between the two realms, the question of suzerainty had not been of great importance to Edward. Now he insisted that, if he were to settle the contest, he had to be fully recognised as Scotland's feudal overlord.[119] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-118) The Scots were reluctant to make such a concession, and replied that since the country had no king, no one had the authority to make this decision.[120] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-119) This problem was circumvented when the competitors agreed that the realm would be handed over to Edward until a rightful heir had been found.[121] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-120) After a lengthy hearing, a decision was made in favour of John Balliol on 17 November 1292.[122] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-121)
Even after Balliol's accession, Edward still continued to assert his authority over Scotland. Against the objections of the Scots, he agreed to hear appeals on cases ruled on by the court of guardians that had governed Scotland during the interregnum.[123] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-122) A further provocation came in a case brought by Macduff, son of Malcolm, Earl of Fife (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Maol_Choluim_II,_Earl_of_Fife), where Edward demanded Balliol appear in person before the English Parliament (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Parliament_of_England) to answer the charges.[124] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-123) This the Scottish king did, but the final straw was Edward's demand that the Scottish magnates provide military service in the war against France.[125] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-124) This was unacceptable; the Scots instead formed an alliance (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Auld_Alliance) with France, and launched an unsuccessful attack on Carlisle (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Carlisle,_Cumbria).[126] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-125) Edward responded by invading Scotland in 1296, and taking the town of Berwick (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Berwick) in a particularly bloody attack.[127] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-126) At the Battle of Dunbar (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Battle_of_Dunbar), Scottish resistance was effectively crushed.[128] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-127) Edward confiscated the Stone of Destiny (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Stone_of_Scone) – the Scottish coronation stone – and brought it to Westminster, deposed Balliol and placed him in the Tower of London (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Tower_of_London), and installed Englishmen to govern the country.[6] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-DNB-5) The campaign had been a great success, but the English triumph would eventually prove deceptive.[129 (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-128)

This is bascically the start of all the dis-harmony towards the English and William Wallace showed that true Scottish spirirt by fighting for the cause, which we have witnessed in the many years following.

[Woody1985]

The Great Cause
The relationship between the nations of England and Scotland (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Scotland) by the 1280s was one of relatively harmonious coexistence.[111] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-110) The issue of homage did not reach the same level of controversy as it did in Wales; in 1278 King Alexander III of Scotland (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Alexander_III_of_Scotland) paid homage to Edward I, but apparently only for the lands he held of Edward in England.[112] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-111) Problems arose only with the Scottish succession crisis of the early 1290s. In the years from 1281 to 1284, Alexander's two sons and one daughter died in quick succession. Then, in 1286, King Alexander died himself, leaving as heir to the throne of Scotland Margaret (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Margaret,_Maid_of_Norway), born in 1283 to Alexander's daughter Margaret (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Margaret_of_Scotland,_Queen_of_Norway) and King Eric II of Norway (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Eric_II_of_Norway).[113] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-112) By the Treaty of Birgham (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Treaty_of_Birgham) it was agreed that Margaret should marry King Edward's son Edward of Carnarvon (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Edward_II_of_England), though Scotland would remain free of English overlordship (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Suzerainty).[114] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-113)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Coronation_Chair_and_Stone_of_Scone._Anonymous_Eng raver._Published_in_A_History_of_England_%281855%2 9.jpg/140px-Coronation_Chair_and_Stone_of_Scone._Anonymous_Eng raver._Published_in_A_History_of_England_%281855%2 9.jpg (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/File:Coronation_Chair_and_Stone_of_Scone._Anonymou s_Engraver._Published_in_A_History_of_England_(185 5).jpg) http://www.hibs.net/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/File:Coronation_Chair_and_Stone_of_Scone._Anonymou s_Engraver._Published_in_A_History_of_England_(185 5).jpg)
19th-century drawing of the Stone of Destiny (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Stone_of_Destiny). The Scottish coronation stone remained at Westminster until it was returned to Scotland in 1996.


Margaret, known as the Maid of Norway, sailed from Norway for Scotland in the autumn of 1290, but fell ill on the way and died in Orkney (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Orkney).[115] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-114) This left the country without an obvious heir, and led to the succession dispute known to history as the Great Cause (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Competitors_for_the_Crown_of_Scotland).[116] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-115) Even though as many as fourteen claimants put forward their claims to the title, the real contest was between John Balliol (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/John_of_Scotland) and Robert Bruce (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Robert_de_Brus,_5th_Lord_of_Annandale).[117] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-116) The Scottish magnates (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Magnate) made a request to Edward to arbitrate in the dispute.[118] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-117) At Birgham, with the prospect of a personal union between the two realms, the question of suzerainty had not been of great importance to Edward. Now he insisted that, if he were to settle the contest, he had to be fully recognised as Scotland's feudal overlord.[119] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-118) The Scots were reluctant to make such a concession, and replied that since the country had no king, no one had the authority to make this decision.[120] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-119) This problem was circumvented when the competitors agreed that the realm would be handed over to Edward until a rightful heir had been found.[121] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-120) After a lengthy hearing, a decision was made in favour of John Balliol on 17 November 1292.[122] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-121)
Even after Balliol's accession, Edward still continued to assert his authority over Scotland. Against the objections of the Scots, he agreed to hear appeals on cases ruled on by the court of guardians that had governed Scotland during the interregnum.[123] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-122) A further provocation came in a case brought by Macduff, son of Malcolm, Earl of Fife (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Maol_Choluim_II,_Earl_of_Fife), where Edward demanded Balliol appear in person before the English Parliament (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Parliament_of_England) to answer the charges.[124] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-123) This the Scottish king did, but the final straw was Edward's demand that the Scottish magnates provide military service in the war against France.[125] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-124) This was unacceptable; the Scots instead formed an alliance (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Auld_Alliance) with France, and launched an unsuccessful attack on Carlisle (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Carlisle,_Cumbria).[126] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-125) Edward responded by invading Scotland in 1296, and taking the town of Berwick (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Berwick) in a particularly bloody attack.[127] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-126) At the Battle of Dunbar (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Battle_of_Dunbar), Scottish resistance was effectively crushed.[128] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-127) Edward confiscated the Stone of Destiny (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Stone_of_Scone) – the Scottish coronation stone – and brought it to Westminster, deposed Balliol and placed him in the Tower of London (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Tower_of_London), and installed Englishmen to govern the country.[6] (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-DNB-5) The campaign had been a great success, but the English triumph would eventually prove deceptive.[129 (http://www.hibs.net/message/#cite_note-128)

This is bascically the start of all the dis-harmony towards the English and William Wallace showed that true Scottish spirirt by fighting for the cause, which we have witnessed in the many years following.

Is this similar to looking after our north sea interests because we can't be trusted to look after it ourselves?

[Future17]

..brown men, Lads in England football shirts, posh dafties in fancy dress, beardie blokes with 70's style Scotland tops, lassies waving union flags and muscle bound crazies.

All supporting Andy Murray like their lives depended on it.

That's a good thing, yeah?

Could Scottish folk be as warm hearted towards an English sportsman?

Rob Jones?

Steven Fletcher?

Chris Hogg?

I could go on.......

[Hibbyradge]

I
As for Murray, he'll never view himself as "British" I don't think. He wears his patriotism on his sleeve (literally) and last night, seemed to chose a small section of fans within the crowd who appeared Scottish (with the wearing of Scotland tops, painted faces etc).



An inconvenient truth. (http://img.skysports.com/08/07/800x600/Andy-Murray-Union-Jack_995532.jpg)

[Woody1985]

An inconvenient truth. (http://img.skysports.com/08/07/800x600/Andy-Murray-Union-Jack_995532.jpg)

Or a PR exercise designed to generate more income for everyone.

I don't mind him representing himself as British TBH. I don't mind British sportsmen and women. Just don't want them to win at football. They can think what they want about is TBH.

[ancient hibee]

Behave yourself - she was his mother. :tsk tsk:




F1's interesting in this context because you can have a British driver in a foreign car competing against a foreign driver in a British car.

Which one is it more acceptable to support?

(And if reports are true, you also have an English Chief Executive in Nazi jackboots and.... No, this is a family forum.)


I've always tended to want the British driver to win.

But I've always tended to favour Ferrari as a manufacturer.
I was reading an article by Stirling Moss(now 79)-in 1945 there was no driving test so he went to the post office with five bob and got his driving licence-a couple of weeks later he went back with ten bob and got his international racing licence and that was him on his way.i always liked his attitude-a drink,a fag,a blonde and a race if he could fit it into the weekend.

[Hibs Class]

Think you answered your own question there.


The slomo replay of that had Johnny Mac briefly speechless, it was that effective.:wink:

:agree: Slomo + widescreen tv + HD = :drool:

[Gatecrasher]

F1's interesting in this context because you can have a British driver in a foreign car competing against a foreign driver in a British car.

Which one is it more acceptable to support?

(And if reports are true, you also have an English Chief Executive in Nazi jackboots and.... No, this is a family forum.)


I've always tended to want the British driver to win.

But I've always tended to favour Ferrari as a manufacturer.


i usually go for Mclaren but i like hamiltons style so its perfect at the moment with him being at Mclaren :greengrin

as Mclaren are going no where this season its jenson button, Im glad he has got the break he's had. As for the teams, most of them are british whether they like to admit it or not (red bull :wink:) saying that theres not anyone in F1 i dont like but there are teams i like to see better than others:agree:

[lobster]

Watching Wimbledon as the camera pans over the spectators it becomes very clear - they are the Class Enemy and Nationalism is poison.
:thumbsup:

[J-C]

Is this similar to looking after our north sea interests because we can't be trusted to look after it ourselves?


That didn't help their PR image in Scotland did it, yes lets get the country deep in debt and when we discover loads of oil off our coast line, lets pay off all our debtors and sod Scotland and all it's needs.

They still think they have an empire and are feared all over the world, what they don't realise is that most people in the world can't stand the English and all they stand for.

OK rant over...........count to 10, breathe deeply and make myself a coffee.:greengrin

[PeeJay]

That didn't help their PR image in Scotland did it, yes lets get the country deep in debt and when we discover loads of oil off our coast line, lets pay off all our debtors and sod Scotland and all it's needs.

They still think they have an empire and are feared all over the world, what they don't realise is that most people in the world can't stand the English and all they stand for.

OK rant over...........count to 10, breathe deeply and make myself a coffee.:greengrin

Was it not a British Empire? Were there not lots of Scottish soldiers, missionaries and politicians involved in the British Empire? As to 'most people' hating the English - are you really sure? Most & Hate?? Seems mighty unlikely to me.

[--------]

Or a PR exercise designed to generate more income for everyone.

I don't mind him representing himself as British TBH. I don't mind British sportsmen and women. Just don't want them to win at football. They can think what they want about is TBH.

He's playing in a major tournament in London SW19. So he isn't going to say or do anything to alienate the home crowd who could very well be helpful in putting pressure on his opponents in later rounds.

But I'll be very interested to see what the response of the media and fans is when/if he goes out of the tournament....


Originally Posted by khib70

Agree that the support for Murray was huge, and came from all directions. Disappointing not to see a Hibs top amongst them all, though.

Did anyone notice that the BBC cameraman, despite the huge and colourful crowd cut to a shot of the same three guys in straw hats waving UJ's after almost every point? What was that all about - relatives?


There were actually four of them - three in straw hats and a fourth to their right wearing what looked like a black-brimmed hat with Jewish-style forelocks attached (you'll see him on the highlights). The hat was a comic version of the sort of thing you see Hasidic Jews wearing.

I'm prettty sure that they were all together. I don't know what they were on, but they were obviously having a terrific time to themselves.

I think Murray signed to them at one point - maybe geeing them up (they didn't look to be needing it) - but the more pressure the crowd can place on his opponents, the better.

They looked like four nice Jewish boys out for a night out together?

Wonder what Mama said about their antics when they got home? :cool2:


(That blonde lass was a big girl. :blushie: )

[The Mook]

That didn't help their PR image in Scotland did it, yes lets get the country deep in debt and when we discover loads of oil off our coast line, lets pay off all our debtors and sod Scotland and all it's needs.

They still think they have an empire and are feared all over the world, what they don't realise is that most people in the world can't stand the English and all they stand for.

OK rant over...........count to 10, breathe deeply and make myself a coffee.:greengrin

Youre right in what you say, there are the Little Englanders who think this, and wrongly so.

There are also a fair few Scots who subscribe to some romantic notion that Scots are loved and regaled all over the world, not too disimilar actually to some Celtic fans, who we rightly mock for this self-serving attitude.

From the 'Wha's like us' attitude of the likes of the Tartan Army to that poster in Glasgow Airport - "Scotland, greatest small country in the world".

Not far off the traits of these Little Englanders you seem to have such an issue with

[Hibbyradge]

They still think they have an empire and are feared all over the world, what they don't realise is that most people in the world can't stand the English and all they stand for.



:bitchy:

[hibsbollah]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jun/27/andy-murray-wimbledon-golden-boy

In the end, he was just too good. Not just for his opponent Viktor Troicki, but for the great British public up on what used to be Henman Hill and what they keep wanting us to call Murray Mount but which isn't yet catching on. They'd all had their strawberries, but they hadn't had their hearts in their mouths. It makes for better digestion.

"I'm not really that fussed with what it's called," said the young Scot afterwards. "It deserves to be called Henman Hill; I'm sure it will be for a long time."

Andy Murray (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/andymurray) is liked, now, and respected, and revered even by British tennis (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/tennis) fans: not loved. His tennis last night, as he forged through to the fourth round with a finessed display of curves and swing balls and simple power, delighted the fans on Centre Court: and the thousands crowding the mount outside, watching the big screen, were pleased yet seemed strangely unmoved. There was dutiful applause: gasps even, at times, when he pulled off astonishing returns but no one seemed too bothered because he hasn't, yet, scared them.

Maybe it was the weather: maybe it's just the newness of this feeling. At precisely 5.30pm yesterday afternoon, as a single finger of lightning flickered down to the north-west, over quite possibly and deservedly Slough, the British world was starting to settle back, almost, on its axis. The Lions, we had all heard with indecent haste, had lost again: last kick of the match. A single black cloud grew and grew from the west, and started spotting rain, and lightning dropped. If there was one single person who didn't joke about how much the wee man with the new roof button must be looking forward to finally using it, I couldn't meet them.
Last-minute reversal; rain; second-hand jokes. Britain was British again. With one singular exception. As soon as Andy Roddick finally finished winning, it was time for Andy Murray to play. And, this time there was a palpably different mood to be felt.

Murray provokes in this audience many things, not all good: but one very good one is hope. There's a qualitative difference in mood here from the Henman years: no plethora of flags and teddy bears and misery. No Saltires, even: only, at 6.10, when the Scot finally appeared as clouds seriously began to lour, did the first union flag appear, complete with the odd lettering "Andy - show us your guns!" Instead, this new British hope provokes exactly that: hope. A quieter, less mad, more steely kind of hope. The tennis fans here are in the main sharp and wise and in doubt about the complexity, so far, of their feelings. Lucy, Simon, Lydia, Izzie and Olly compete, between courtesy and giggles and Pimm's, to nail the definitive feeling.

"He's a different kind of player, and actually I do like him, more and more, and it doesn't matter, if you're a tennis fan, whether he smiles or whatever enough," says the first. Simon disagrees. "He's grown up a bit, and he's got a new coach, and learned better PR." A couple of his friends dismiss the last as less important than the tennis, but Simon insists. "If he's a role model to young tennis players he needs to learn the game, to smile, to crack jokes, to be a bit more cool. [Rafael] Nadal does it, he's really cool in Spain and they love him and people get into the game. It's important these days." It might be the preponderance of young PR people here yesterday, but I keep hearing this: image is important today, and he got it wrong, for too long.

"But there's a difference between being 23, more grown, and 18 or whatever when we first heard of him," says Ollie. "Honestly, round here, round this table, whole of this hill I suspect, the Scottishness thing doesn't count. He's British. As we are. And we've got someone to really get behind tonight, and also, you know ... he might just do it. Which is a new feeling!"

Up the hill, there's a more simplistic view among Toby and his friends as to why the mainstream tennis fans, let alone the wider English nation, took so long to love Andy. "It was that daft stuff years ago, saying he would support anyone but England. I took against that. In fact, I'm not a huge tennis fan, came here to get drunk and see my mates, and was thinking of supporting the Serb or whatever he is just to be difficult, but the mood's changed my mind this afternoon. There's a lot of goodwill around just towards being British."

Vicky and Paul, chiming in nearby, nod heavily. "Toby's right: he got that English stuff wrong," says the latter. "But you know what? I think we've all pretty much forgotten it now. I think we just see a bloody good player, and want him to win."

Lorna Sands was being wise about it all. "Daft with that anti-English stuff, of course he was, but didn't we all do that, in Scotland, at 18? He's a great player, and they're going to love him. The English, my English friends, just found the contrast a bit much: Tim Henman was warm, cuddly, polite, a good loser. Andy's every Scottish stereotype: dour, hard working. A sore loser. But I promise you, some more wins like tonight, and if he wins Wimbledon (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/wimbledon), they'll love him. They'll even forget he's Scottish."
Time and again, on the slopes, I hear the same or similar: no love, exactly, not yet, but the excitement of a new feeling, which is perhaps more the absence of the old Henman feeling, which was mild pit-of-the-stomach despair.

There is no love, but from this oh-so-English crowd there is fast-moving acceptance, and crowding goodwill: and increasingly delight in some simply rock-solid hope.

[J-C]

Was it not a British Empire? Were there not lots of Scottish soldiers, missionaries and politicians involved in the British Empire? As to 'most people' hating the English - are you really sure? Most & Hate?? Seems mighty unlikely to me.


Please point out in my post where I said the word hate........no, can't find it eh! that's cause I never used it.:confused:

Yes there was Scottish people involved in the "British" Empire but it was predominantly an English Empire. The British Empire acted like the old Roman Empire, go over to other countries and take what they could with brute force and in the mean time stealing all their wealth.


Personally I don't have a problem or an issue with English as such, just that small minority who fail to see that they don't run or rule the world any more. When it comes to sport I'll support the individual sportman no matter where they are from but not when it comes to any English team.

[Dashing Bob S]

Murray expressed what so many Scots of his age feel, why should they support an English team/player and why is the assumption raised that they should? Why do pundits never feel the need to ask him if he'd support a Welsh or Northern Ireland team or player? Why would he?

The only reason Scots sheepishly back English players/teams is because we're guilt-tripped by the media into believing we're 'unsporting' 'unpatriotic' or 'bitter'.

[barcahibs]

The Great Cause
The relationship between the nations of England and Scotland (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Scotland)

This is bascically the start of all the dis-harmony towards the English and William Wallace showed that true Scottish spirirt by fighting for the cause, which we have witnessed in the many years following.

From that reading Edward sounds like he was in the right, if we couldn't decide who was in charge of us why shouldn't he? Especialy seeing as he was asked to. Would any modern ruler be happy with a failed state on their borders?

but anyhoo, what we're saying here is that we should pick and choose what sportsmen to support in 21st century Britain because of some complicated political and legal wranglings which took place 700 years ago?

And we accuse rantic of living in the past!? The Battle of the Boyne was only yesterday by comparison! (thanks Doddie :greengrin )
Does that mean I'm allowed to hate the Scandanavians because of all that Viking business or do I have to come up with another reason? (damm them with their stylish yet affordable flatpack furniture, beautiful women and everlasting summer days! Damm them to hell!)
How about hating all those Normans who came over here raping our cattle and stealing our women! (or was that the other way around? You never can tell with the French) And don’t get me started on those bloomin Anglo-Saxons!

As for William Wallace he was no more fighting for Scotland than he was fighting for the moon. He was fighting for money, power and dynastic glory like everyone else at the time. He does appear to have been a bit of a nutter when he got into a rammy though, which is pretty Scottish. :greengrin
Is making a belt from the skin of your enemies a bold fashion statement or a war crime? :greengrin

IMO of course :greengrin


Please point out in my post where I said the word hate........no, can't find it eh! that's cause I never used it.:confused:

Yes there was Scottish people involved in the "British" Empire but it was predominantly an English Empire. The British Empire acted like the old Roman Empire, go over to other countries and take what they could with brute force and in the mean time stealing all their wealth.


Personally I don't have a problem or an issue with English as such, just that small minority who fail to see that they don't run or rule the world any more. When it comes to sport I'll support the individual sportman no matter where they are from but not when it comes to any English team.

I'm on a wee bit more solid ground here, to be honest what I know about the 13th/14th century would be just about enough to fill Mel Gibson's notebook.

The Scots were enthusiastic, effective and very widespread contributors to the British Empire. Scots explorers, merchants, soldiers, politicians and settlers played a huge role and did very well out of it. It was a British empire in fact, not just in name. Lets not forget of course that part of the reason for the act of union was our own disasterous attempts at empire building.

Sorry JC50 it looks like I'm having a go at you here, I'm really not trying to. Is anyone else finding the close season really dull? Where's the calendar thread when you need it!! You can bet it would have somethng to say about an issue like this. Admittedly it would likely be something about time travelling robots and orange juice but you can’t have everything.

I'll support any individual British sportsperson, especially when they're representing Britain, but I draw the line at the English football and rugby team; partly just to be an awkward Scot but mainly due to the over-enthusiastic media hype. I would be quite pleased if England won the ashes.
It has to be said that the BBC news is fairly consistently referring to Murray as being Scottish which is a refreshing change.

[TheMentalHibees]

Wouldn't mind supporting someone english, as long as it wasn't the national football side.

[PeeJay]

Please point out in my post where I said the word hate........no, can't find it eh! that's cause I never used it.:confused:

Yes there was Scottish people involved in the "British" Empire but it was predominantly an English Empire. The British Empire acted like the old Roman Empire, go over to other countries and take what they could with brute force and in the mean time stealing all their wealth.


Personally I don't have a problem or an issue with English as such, just that small minority who fail to see that they don't run or rule the world any more. When it comes to sport I'll support the individual sportman no matter where they are from but not when it comes to any English team.

You're right of course you didn't use the word hate - it was "can't stand them" - fair point. Is it really such a huge difference in the particular context you are using it though? Whatever, my point still stands - your opinion here is surely dubious to say the least?
Whiel I'm at it, I also disagree with you about the British Empire - lots of Scottish people took part in it and helped shape it - just because there's more "English" people doesn't make it any less a British Empire, surely?

Neither am I of the opinion that the British Empire was always a bad thing - in some instances YES/MAYBE - but not always (US/Canada/NewZealand/Australia). In many cases we were the lesser of the many evils out and about "acquiring countries".

I also find the comparison with the Roman Empire a misguided one: Britain was a trading nation, in many instances there was no country per se when we landed on their shores - India is a prime example: we didn't take it off anyone! The East India Company was there long before any GO or troops. We did not always "steal wealth", we traded in many instances (how fairly or unfairly is open to debate!) - One has to wonder if you really have such a tenuous grasp on the history of the country in which you were born or if this is just down to polemic and a wee bit of English baiting?

I also find it somewhat dishonest for Scottish people to claim that the British Empire was an English matter and the Scottish input was negligible! Scotland, as a country, surely benefitted from it in many ways, soldiers took the Queen's/King's shilling, missionaries converted the locals, Scottish traders bought/sold their merchandise, Scottish people settled in many of the countries?

No doubt we shan't agree on this matter though - and, I'm too slow off the mark, it seems many of my points have been put better elsewhere! :bye:

[J-C]

The test for me is when abroad and someone asks you what nationality you are, me I say Scottish before British. I think most people on here would say the same, we as a nation are very strong minded and proud and as a whole are different from our English neighbours.

Not to say we hate or dislike, more of a friendly banter in this day and age, until you meet one of those overtly patriotic Englishmen who still thinks England is the centre of the world, then we turn all anti English. :greengrin

Yes we're British, our history tells us that but remember it was a UNION of countries not a merger, which allows us to keep our individual nationalities.

[Hibbyradge]

.

until you meet one of those overtly patriotic Englishmen who still thinks England is the centre of the world, then we turn all anti English. :greengrin



You meet peple like that regularly, do you?

Funny, cos I've spend a lot of my time working in England over the past 20 years and I never have.

I also must have lived in a different part of Parkgrove to you, cos I never met any there either. :wink:

"Baldrick, your brain is like the four headed, man-eating haddock fish beast of Aberdeen."

"In what way, sir?"

"It doesn't exist!"

[J-C]

You meet peple like that regularly, do you?

Funny, cos I've spend a lot of my time working in England over the past 20 years and I never have.

I also must have lived in a different part of Parkgrove to you, cos I never met any there either. :wink:

"Baldrick, your brain is like the four headed, man-eating haddock fish beast of Aberdeen."

"In what way, sir?"

"It doesn't exist!"


You'll have to get out more cause they are there. :wink:

I don't think I said all English just the few who enjoy bleating on about past glory,(1966,rugby world cups etc)these are the ones that assume England have a right to be in every final and win that final.

So far in my 14 years in Parkgrove I've only met 2 Englismen and both were gents, my nephew is English( Newcastle) and I have family in London.

Don't make me out to be anti English as this isn't the case, I have known many English people over the years with some of my best holidays being in their company.:wink:

[Hibbyradge]

You'll have to get out more cause they are there. :wink:

I don't think I said all English just the few who enjoy bleating on about past glory,(1966,rugby world cups etc)these are the ones that assume England have a right to be in every final and win that final.



Seriously, next time you meet one of them, get their contact details, because I don't believe they exist.

I know plenty who want their team in the final, and who think they would have a chance of winning it, but none who think they have an automatic right.

A bit like Hibs fans who think we should always beat teams like Killie and Falkirk, just cos we're Hibs.




most people in the world can't stand the English and all they stand for.






then we turn all anti English. :greengrin




Don't make me out to be anti English as this isn't the case,

Obviously, I'm easily confused. :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

Age old argument there, and a pretty lazy 'observation' from you. I refute your claim, he is often referred to as Scottish in the media (winning or losing), and I'm sure English people are completely aware of the fact.

(If your comment was made with tongue in cheek then I whole heartedly apologise.)

What interests me is that being Scottish (or Welsh for that matter) is seen as worthy of comment, I can't recall Henman ever being called 'The English.' A bit like the commentators' tendency to call Federer 'the Swiss,' Nadal 'the Spanish' and Djokovic 'the Serb.' Seems a bit strange.

It could well have been a lazy observation, as I was lying on the setee at the time. However, I distinctly recall citizens of another country deciding what a tennis players nationality should be. The question was "scottish or british", not one of them could contemplate the compromise answer, namely "both".

[J-C]

Came in from work at about 2am and watched QI with Stephen Fry. One of the bits was about Britain and England and some facts about same. He said Chamberlain signed the peace treaty as Prime Minister of England and that Great Britain was generally known and called over the world as England, even to this day people from abroad don't realise the difference between the 2.

[Andy74]

..brown men, Lads in England football shirts, posh dafties in fancy dress, beardie blokes with 70's style Scotland tops, lassies waving union flags and muscle bound crazies.

All supporting Andy Murray like their lives depended on it.

That's a good thing, yeah?

Could Scottish folk be as warm hearted towards an English sportsman?

You are kidding?

There was a great blog the other day that I read and can't find anymore from an english journalist slating his fellow English people for taking those football comments too seriously and not being able to support him.

A poll suggested about half of people asked would not be supporting him.

Why are you suggesting that we have a problem and England don't? They have got very carried away ove this and it seems to be about half and half.

[The Green Goblin]

If ever proof was needed that too many people have their heads and attention buried in the `past` then it`s here on this thread. Arguing about things that happened hundreds of years ago, for goodness sake, as if any of that really matters any more. Time to move on.

England (football/rugby-whatever) are just another team to me. I really don`t care what happens to them, unless it affects Scotland. However, I agree it can be difficult to keep that perspective sometimes, because if you live in Scotland, you are subjected to so much crap and hype in the media from south of the border.

As for Andy Murray, he`s a Scottish player who represents Britain, same as happens in loads of other sports: figure skating and cycling, for example. How he sees himself and how others see him won`t necessarily be the same thing.

But, to be fair, I have heard him being referred to as "the Scot" many times in print and on tv. I say again though, the real questions here are: what and why does it really matter so much anyway? The answer to those questions lies within peoples` preoccupation and insecurities over ideas of `race` and `national identities` in modern Britain.

The sooner people move on from getting their knickers in a twist over such things, the better off we will all be for it.

GG

[greenlex]

Anyone proud of how the Lions played in South Africa against the Springboks? :devil:

[J-C]

Anyone proud of how the Lions played in South Africa against the Springboks? :devil:


I watched it and was rooting like mad for the Lions cause they're British, unfortunately no Scots in the starting 15 but had Ross Ford on the bench.
Also I watched it cause I played rugby for 20 years.:greengrin

[Beefster]

..brown men, Lads in England football shirts, posh dafties in fancy dress, beardie blokes with 70's style Scotland tops, lassies waving union flags and muscle bound crazies.

All supporting Andy Murray like their lives depended on it.

That's a good thing, yeah?

Could Scottish folk be as warm hearted towards an English sportsman?

My missus is English and it's only English national teams that I have a problem with. That's because I support Scotland though, rather than being due to a hatred of England.

I'd support Henman/Button/Hatton etc as much as any Englishman.