Kill, maim and rape all you like...

[Hibbyradge]

...but don't nick our money.

Priorities, eh? (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE55R1BV20090629)

[Sir David Gray]

I don't actually have any problem with Madoff being handed a massive prison sentence. He hasn't just nicked a couple of hundred pounds, he has masterminded a multi-billion dollar fraud. He has subsequently ruined many lives and left a lot of people potless.

He may not have killed anyone directly but his actions could well make some of his victims become so depressed and desperate that they take their own life.

I agree with what you are implying about rapists and murderers being handed much lesser sentences, particularly in this country, but I think what Madoff did was so terrible and so shocking that a huge prison term is wholly justified.

I just wish that rapists and, in particular, pre-meditated murderers in the UK were handed similar sentences, instead of the 20 years nonsense that we normally see.

[Dashing Bob S]

...but don't nick our money.

Priorities, eh? (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE55R1BV20090629)

Kind of you, HR, but i'll stick to a cup of tea.

[hibsbollah]

I don't actually have any problem with Madoff being handed a massive prison sentence. He hasn't just nicked a couple of hundred pounds, he has masterminded a multi-billion dollar fraud. He has subsequently ruined many lives and left a lot of people potless.

He may not have killed anyone directly but his actions could well make some of his victims become so depressed and desperate that they take their own life.

I agree with what you are implying about rapists and murderers being handed much lesser sentences, particularly in this country, but I think what Madoff did was so terrible and so shocking that a huge prison term is wholly justified.

I just wish that rapists and, in particular, pre-meditated murderers in the UK were handed similar sentences, instead of the 20 years nonsense that we normally see.

:agree:There was a guy being interviewed outside the court whose father took his own life because of the fraud; so I think in this case boundaries are blurred slightly. Although in general terms I agree that crimes against the person should be punished harder than they are, and certainly harder than crimes against property/financial crime.

[CropleyWasGod]

I have long said that the law seems to value property above humanity. Viz, two recent cases in Edinburgh:-

1. a 21 year old footballer, earning £600 pw, hits another. Result, £1,000 fine.

2. a 16 year old student, with no income and a mother living on benefits, gets caught spray painting walls. Result, £1,500 fine.

A microcosm of the Madoff/rapists scenario.

[(((Fergus)))]

I have long said that the law seems to value property above humanity. Viz, two recent cases in Edinburgh:-

1. a 21 year old footballer, earning £600 pw, hits another. Result, £1,000 fine.

2. a 16 year old student, with no income and a mother living on benefits, gets caught spray painting walls. Result, £1,500 fine.

A microcosm of the Madoff/rapists scenario.

I've been looking at the records from Inveraray jail from the 1800s and the same thing is apparent there, e.g.:

McTAVISH, Dugald
Assault
Fined £1 1s

BELL, Daniel
Assault to Danger Life
3 months imprisonment

COCKBURN, Daniel
Rape
3 months imprisonment

MacDOUGALL, Daniel
Murder. (Guilty of Culpable Homicide)
Sentence: 7 Years Transportation

BLACK, Hugh
Horse Stealing
7 Years transportation

BOYLE, John
Uttering and Using Forged Notes
14 Years transportation

HODGE, George
Theft of a letter sent by post (containing £300)
Life Transportation

yet the worst crime of all, it seems...:

BURSEY, Edward George
Sodomy
Penal Servitude for Life

[khib70]

:agree:There was a guy being interviewed outside the court whose father took his own life because of the fraud; so I think in this case boundaries are blurred slightly. Although in general terms I agree that crimes against the person should be punished harder than they are, and certainly harder than crimes against property/financial crime.
Surprisingly for both of us, I agree with all of that:greengrin

I think that rape and murder are probably punished fairly toughly, especially in the US (if you're poor/black, but not OJ SImpson) Where I think the system goes wrong is with "lesser" crimes against the person - notably those involving cars. If you get wasted down the pub and kill someone in a fight, you're liable to do more serious time than if you get wasted, climb into a half-ton motor and run them over.

The great example is obviously the Great Train Robbery, where sentences of up to 30 years were handed out. Tragically the train driver subsequently never worked, and eventually died. No one was even charged in relation to that. Any number of violent crimes at the time and later attracted much more lenient sentences. Undoubtedly the train robbers were a pretty unsavoury bunch, but the disposal of that case is one of the great inconsistencies in recent British legal history.

[MSK]

I've been looking at the records from Inveraray jail from the 1800s and the same thing is apparent there, e.g.:

MacDOUGALL, Daniel
Murder. (Guilty of Culpable Homicide)
Sentence: 7 Years Transportation


BOYLE, John
Uttering and Using Forged Notes
14 Years transportation

Wheres the justice !!!! :grr:...:greengrin

[ancient hibee]

Evidently it's 150 years or life.

[Hibs Class]

The great example is obviously the Great Train Robbery, where sentences of up to 30 years were handed out. Tragically the train driver subsequently never worked, and eventually died. No one was even charged in relation to that. Any number of violent crimes at the time and later attracted much more lenient sentences. Undoubtedly the train robbers were a pretty unsavoury bunch, but the disposal of that case is one of the great inconsistencies in recent British legal history.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the difference between robbery and theft is that theft simply involves taking what is not yours, whilst robbery is theft with either the use of violence or the threat of violence (I picked that up during jury duty!). That being the case, the charges the train robbers faced were robbery and so reflected the attack on the driver. That was presumably a more appropriate way to deal with it than, for example, attempted murder, which requires an intent to kill and is therefore harder to prove. The difficulty is in identifying how much of the sentences were for it being a big theft and how much were for the use of violence.