Freedom of Speech

[EuanH78]

I have been reading the threads on this forum with interest the last few weeks though I have not been contributing to them, largely because I have been watching something else develop within them.

In many of the threads on here there seems to be a growing right wing element, some would say just plain racist, homophobic, anti-semetic, etc.....

Whilst I may find these views distasteful, this is a public forum. Forum being a Roman word for, at least in one meaning ' A meeting place for the open discussion of ideas in the public interest'

This forum, like it or not will be a microcosm of our society itself and many of the beliefs will be genuinely held beliefs of people in our wider society.

Just as there has been a growing number of right wing posts, there has been an equal showing of left wing dogmatism, some would argue an unwillingness to discuss the points made, instead, personally attacking the posters and locking of the threads concerned almost bordering on censorship.

John Milton argued that (apologies for lifting this direct from Wikipedia but it is far more eloquent than I could ever hope to put it) 'a nation's unity is created through blending individual differences rather than imposing homogeneity from above; that the ability to explore the fullest range of ideas on a given issue was essential to any learning process and truth cannot be arrived upon unless all points of view are first considered; and that by considering free thought, censorship acts to the detriment of material progress.'

His school of thought also proposed that truth would always defeat falsehood in open discussion.

My opinion, for what its worth.

Racism, homophobia, anti-semitism, intolerance, are the enemies of truth. Some understand that, but do we also understand that dogmatism, censorship and refusal to discuss openly these views are equally the enemies of that same truth?

The interent forum offers a great opportunity for the forwarding of modern thought, (mostly) anonymously people can express views and discuss ideas, the discussion of which will ultimately lead to understanding, the betterment of this forum and the betterment of society as a whole.

Where is the 2-cents smiley?

[Hibbyradge]

You're wrong.



















:wink::greengrin

[EuanH78]

You're wrong.



















:wink::greengrin

I am, usually on many things all at the same time, the Mrs tells me so, even when I'm right, I'm wrong. :greengrin

[J-C]

I have been reading the threads on this forum with interest the last few weeks though I have not been contributing to them, largely because I have been watching something else develop within them.

In many of the threads on here there seems to be a growing right wing element, some would say just plain racist, homophobic, anti-semetic, etc.....

Whilst I may find these views distasteful, this is a public forum. Forum being a Roman word for, at least in one meaning ' A meeting place for the open discussion of ideas in the public interest'

This forum, like it or not will be a microcosm of our society itself and many of the beliefs will be genuinely held beliefs of people in our wider society.

Just as there has been a growing number of right wing posts, there has been an equal showing of left wing dogmatism, some would argue an unwillingness to discuss the points made, instead, personally attacking the posters and locking of the threads concerned almost bordering on censorship.

John Milton argued that (apologies for lifting this direct from Wikipedia but it is far more eloquent than I could ever hope to put it) 'a nation's unity is created through blending individual differences rather than imposing homogeneity from above; that the ability to explore the fullest range of ideas on a given issue was essential to any learning process and truth cannot be arrived upon unless all points of view are first considered; and that by considering free thought, censorship acts to the detriment of material progress.'

His school of thought also proposed that truth would always defeat falsehood in open discussion.

My opinion, for what its worth.

Racism, homophobia, anti-semitism, intolerance, are the enemies of truth. Some understand that, but do we also understand that dogmatism, censorship and refusal to discuss openly these views are equally the enemies of that same truth?

The interent forum offers a great opportunity for the forwarding of modern thought, (mostly) anonymously people can express views and discuss ideas, the discussion of which will ultimately lead to understanding, the betterment of this forum and the betterment of society as a whole.

Where is the 2-cents smiley?

Admin, can we close this thread please...:greengrin













:top marks

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think discussion and debate are very important things, firstly it allows you to test your beliefs against what others hold to be right. Secondly, if your beliefs are shown to be ill founded, then it gives you a chance to reappraise them.

I think some of the discussions on here lately have been very useful for me. It has reminded me that not everyone thinks the same as me and that it is dangerous to assume that they do.

[Expecting Rain]

A change in circumstances is a contributory factor when reassessing your political stance, i don`t think anybody stays in the same place in that respect for too long a time, yeah you do have to guard against your own complacency and surprise yourself at times when your tongue engages before your brain,still silence is a bigger threat to our democracy, we need to know how people are thinking wether we like it or not.

[hibsbollah]

I have been reading the threads on this forum with interest the last few weeks though I have not been contributing to them, largely because I have been watching something else develop within them.

In many of the threads on here there seems to be a growing right wing element, some would say just plain racist, homophobic, anti-semetic, etc.....

Whilst I may find these views distasteful, this is a public forum. Forum being a Roman word for, at least in one meaning ' A meeting place for the open discussion of ideas in the public interest'

This forum, like it or not will be a microcosm of our society itself and many of the beliefs will be genuinely held beliefs of people in our wider society.

Just as there has been a growing number of right wing posts, there has been an equal showing of left wing dogmatism, some would argue an unwillingness to discuss the points made, instead, personally attacking the posters and locking of the threads concerned almost bordering on censorship.

John Milton argued that (apologies for lifting this direct from Wikipedia but it is far more eloquent than I could ever hope to put it) 'a nation's unity is created through blending individual differences rather than imposing homogeneity from above; that the ability to explore the fullest range of ideas on a given issue was essential to any learning process and truth cannot be arrived upon unless all points of view are first considered; and that by considering free thought, censorship acts to the detriment of material progress.'

His school of thought also proposed that truth would always defeat falsehood in open discussion.

My opinion, for what its worth.

Racism, homophobia, anti-semitism, intolerance, are the enemies of truth. Some understand that, but do we also understand that dogmatism, censorship and refusal to discuss openly these views are equally the enemies of that same truth?

The interent forum offers a great opportunity for the forwarding of modern thought, (mostly) anonymously people can express views and discuss ideas, the discussion of which will ultimately lead to understanding, the betterment of this forum and the betterment of society as a whole.

Where is the 2-cents smiley?

Good post:agree: Some might say the kinds of confrontational posts you're describing reflect what is going on in society.

[EuanH78]

I think discussion and debate are very important things, firstly it allows you to test your beliefs against what others hold to be right. Secondly, if your beliefs are shown to be ill founded, then it gives you a chance to reappraise them.

I think some of the discussions on here lately have been very useful for me. It has reminded me that not everyone thinks the same as me and that it is dangerous to assume that they do.

FR, I'm sure you dont need anyone to validate your views though I would say that on the whole you and I (my opinion) hold very similar socio-political beliefs.

Churchy has me nailed down here, a change in my personal circumstances has enforced a change in my philosophical take on things and caused me to re-assess my own dogmatism on matters. Even though I felt I was right to think what I was thinking, my dogma invalidated my opinion.

In a simple twist of (fate :wink: ) synchronicity, I watched this forum play out what was happening to me personally on a wider scope and once I had come to my understanding of the matters personal to me I used the opportunity presented here as a catharsis for myself, also hoping what I was thinking was valid in a wider context.

[(((Fergus)))]

FR, I'm sure you dont need anyone to validate your views though I would say that on the whole you and I (my opinion) hold very similar socio-political beliefs.

Churchy has me nailed down here, a change in my personal circumstances has enforced a change in my philosophical take on things and caused me to re-assess my own dogmatism on matters. Even though I felt I was right to think what I was thinking, my dogma invalidated my opinion.

In a simple twist of (fate :wink: ) synchronicity, I watched this forum play out what was happening to me personally on a wider scope and once I had come to my understanding of the matters personal to me I used the opportunity presented here as a catharsis for myself, also hoping what I was thinking was valid in a wider context.

Come on, out with it then. :greengrin

Good OP btw. People seem to be frightened to consider other points of view in case they have to change their own - which is painful in the short term. I also suspect that some people who ardently oppose certain ideas do so because deep down they feel the same but wish they didn't. Whatever the case, there's a lot of emotional baggage getting in the way of rational debate.

[Hibby D]

I think discussion and debate are very important things, firstly it allows you to test your beliefs against what others hold to be right. Secondly, if your beliefs are shown to be ill founded, then it gives you a chance to reappraise them.

I think some of the discussions on here lately have been very useful for me. It has reminded me that not everyone thinks the same as me and that it is dangerous to assume that they do.

I'm more or less in the same boat - I've had a little more free time on my hands than normal in the last week or so thus my ability to become more involved and intrigued by many of the topics discussed; especially those since Friday night :greengrin

I'm even questioning now (on a personal level only atm) whether I would still have reacted in the same manner as I did throughout the proceedings if I'd had the extra bit of knowledge I've gained as a result. I think the answer is no :agree:


I have been reading the threads on this forum with interest the last few weeks though I have not been contributing to them, largely because I have been watching something else develop within them.

In many of the threads on here there seems to be a growing right wing element, some would say just plain racist, homophobic, anti-semetic, etc.....

Whilst I may find these views distasteful, this is a public forum. Forum being a Roman word for, at least in one meaning ' A meeting place for the open discussion of ideas in the public interest'

This forum, like it or not will be a microcosm of our society itself and many of the beliefs will be genuinely held beliefs of people in our wider society.

Just as there has been a growing number of right wing posts, there has been an equal showing of left wing dogmatism, some would argue an unwillingness to discuss the points made, instead, personally attacking the posters and locking of the threads concerned almost bordering on censorship.

John Milton argued that (apologies for lifting this direct from Wikipedia but it is far more eloquent than I could ever hope to put it) 'a nation's unity is created through blending individual differences rather than imposing homogeneity from above; that the ability to explore the fullest range of ideas on a given issue was essential to any learning process and truth cannot be arrived upon unless all points of view are first considered; and that by considering free thought, censorship acts to the detriment of material progress.'

His school of thought also proposed that truth would always defeat falsehood in open discussion.

My opinion, for what its worth.

Racism, homophobia, anti-semitism, intolerance, are the enemies of truth. Some understand that, but do we also understand that dogmatism, censorship and refusal to discuss openly these views are equally the enemies of that same truth?
The interent forum offers a great opportunity for the forwarding of modern thought, (mostly) anonymously people can express views and discuss ideas, the discussion of which will ultimately lead to understanding, the betterment of this forum and the betterment of society as a whole.

Where is the 2-cents smiley?

I think I'm now in the very (very) early stages of understanding that and in some small way looking forward to being tested on it at some point. We'll see! :greengrin

However, we all need to remember that first and foremost this site is a football fans' forum. The Dug Out & The Holy Ground were created in an attempt to keep certain topics from hi-jacking threads on the main message board and ultimately becoming more important than the reason we're all here - football.

I like the Holy Ground but have never been too fussed about the Dug Out - now I'm asking myself why I don't really like it there. How can I know I don't like it if I don't visit it very often. I guess because I've decided, and wrongly it seems, that the Dug Out is full of mundane chit chat that will in no way appeal to me.

So maybe I'll spend a little more time there and come back in a week or so with an "informed" opinion :greengrin

[Woody1985]

I signed up to the board because most of my mates are Jambos and didn't get a lot of Hibs discussion with mates / at work. I only get to 5/6 games a season as well so don't keep up as much as I'd like.

However, strangely, I generally only post on here or on other non Hibs related football matters as I find the chat generally repetative on the main board. Too many biased, tinted views, too much slating of the players and board, ridiculously boring jokes about yams (child abuse thread recently as a prime example). I know that's what football fans are supposed to be like but I generally find that you can't have a sensible discussion about players (BF thread for example).

I find that on here you can generally get good conversation about a large range of issues and generally learn a bit as well.

[Barney McGrew]

I find that on here you can generally get good conversation about a large range of issues and generally learn a bit as well.

:agree:

There's such a wide range of people from different backgrounds that use hibs.net, I find that the Holy Ground in particular is a real education on certain topics for me.

[richard_pitts]

I signed up to the board because most of my mates are Jambos and didn't get a lot of Hibs discussion with mates / at work. I only get to 5/6 games a season as well so don't keep up as much as I'd like.

However, strangely, I generally only post on here or on other non Hibs related football matters as I find the chat generally repetative on the main board. Too many biased, tinted views, too much slating of the players and board, ridiculously boring jokes about yams (child abuse thread recently as a prime example). I know that's what football fans are supposed to be like but I generally find that you can't have a sensible discussion about players (BF thread for example).

I find that on here you can generally get good conversation about a large range of issues and generally learn a bit as well.

I'm the same - I very rarely post on the main board after becoming bored as I could know what would be on it without having to look at it: all a bit predictable :confused:

On here there's a decent discussion. However, one of the problems of free speech is while somone may have the right to talk b*ll*x, listening to them do so can be irritating :agree::duck:

[Sir David Gray]

I signed up to the board because most of my mates are Jambos and didn't get a lot of Hibs discussion with mates / at work. I only get to 5/6 games a season as well so don't keep up as much as I'd like.

However, strangely, I generally only post on here or on other non Hibs related football matters as I find the chat generally repetative on the main board. Too many biased, tinted views, too much slating of the players and board, ridiculously boring jokes about yams (child abuse thread recently as a prime example). I know that's what football fans are supposed to be like but I generally find that you can't have a sensible discussion about players (BF thread for example).

I find that on here you can generally get good conversation about a large range of issues and generally learn a bit as well.

You've hit the nail on the head for me.

I used to pretty much only use the main board and I hardly ever came to this section.

However, I have increasingly gone the other way in recent times. Like you, I now often find a lot of the stuff on the main board quite boring and repetitive, particularly during the summer months when there is no football to speak about and people are forced into discussing transfer rumours that they have heard, most of which are garbage.

I like it on here. I'm quite often in the minority on a lot of subjects but I enjoy fighting my case and discussing things with people about topics that I am interested in. There's something quite stimulating about being called names. :greengrin

It's just a real shame when a tiny minority spoil a legitimate debate by using childish remarks and abusive comments and the "law abiding" majority lose out when the thread is shut.

[Chuckie]

Loves the greatest thing that we have. . . . Freedom of speech comes second. . . Kill all Hippy's. .

[J-C]

I signed up to the board because most of my mates are Jambos and didn't get a lot of Hibs discussion with mates / at work. I only get to 5/6 games a season as well so don't keep up as much as I'd like.

However, strangely, I generally only post on here or on other non Hibs related football matters as I find the chat generally repetative on the main board. Too many biased, tinted views, too much slating of the players and board, ridiculously boring jokes about yams (child abuse thread recently as a prime example). I know that's what football fans are supposed to be like but I generally find that you can't have a sensible discussion about players (BF thread for example).

I find that on here you can generally get good conversation about a large range of issues and generally learn a bit as well.


Bang on mate, I too am getting a bit fed up with the main board, and have been coming onto the sub boards for a wee bit more stimulus.

I also joined the private members board, not just to help with money towards running the site but also it gives me extra boards etc to use.

[--------]

I have been reading the threads on this forum with interest the last few weeks though I have not been contributing to them, largely because I have been watching something else develop within them.

In many of the threads on here there seems to be a growing right wing element, some would say just plain racist, homophobic, anti-semetic, etc.....

Whilst I may find these views distasteful, this is a public forum. Forum being a Roman word for, at least in one meaning ' A meeting place for the open discussion of ideas in the public interest'

This forum, like it or not will be a microcosm of our society itself and many of the beliefs will be genuinely held beliefs of people in our wider society.

Just as there has been a growing number of right wing posts, there has been an equal showing of left wing dogmatism, some would argue an unwillingness to discuss the points made, instead, personally attacking the posters and locking of the threads concerned almost bordering on censorship.

John Milton argued that (apologies for lifting this direct from Wikipedia but it is far more eloquent than I could ever hope to put it) 'a nation's unity is created through blending individual differences rather than imposing homogeneity from above; that the ability to explore the fullest range of ideas on a given issue was essential to any learning process and truth cannot be arrived upon unless all points of view are first considered; and that by considering free thought, censorship acts to the detriment of material progress.'

His school of thought also proposed that truth would always defeat falsehood in open discussion.

My opinion, for what its worth.

Racism, homophobia, anti-semitism, intolerance, are the enemies of truth. Some understand that, but do we also understand that dogmatism, censorship and refusal to discuss openly these views are equally the enemies of that same truth?

The interent forum offers a great opportunity for the forwarding of modern thought, (mostly) anonymously people can express views and discuss ideas, the discussion of which will ultimately lead to understanding, the betterment of this forum and the betterment of society as a whole.

Where is the 2-cents smiley?


:top marks

"As good almost kill a man as kill a good book. Who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye."

"Though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously, by licensing and prohibiting, to misdoubt her strength. Let her and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter?"

The only problem I can see being that Milton was writing in an age when language was respected and meaning had meaning. In other words, it was still possible to conduct a rational argument with an antagonist with some chance of either persuading him/her, or at least respecting the opposing argument.

Milton's thesis, that absolute freedom of speech will always end with the vindication of "the Truth", only stands when all sides are willing to allow it to stand. You can't argue too easily with a Dzerzhinsky or a Goebbels - they either pervert the language you're using to conduct the debate, in which case the debate becomes so debased as to be rendered impossible, or they kill you.

So to preserve freedom of speech one must first of all strive to protect and preserve language itself, while at the same time being prepared to die for the principle at the hands of those who reject it.

I recommend Georg Steiner's "Language and Silence" - after you've finished reading "Areopagitica". :wink:

BTW - is this possibly the FIRST time the word "Areopagitica" has been used on a football forum? :cool2:

[Steve-O]

Tend to agree with the sentiment of this thread. Whether or not we like what people are saying, censoring them altogether is just sweeping the matter under the carpet and not giving anyone a chance to challenge their views until the bitter end and hopefully get through to them.

[(((Fergus)))]

:top marks



BTW - is this possibly the FIRST time the word "Areopagitica" has been used on a football forum? :cool2:

You know how there's always someone to contradict you on Hibs.net? :cool2::greengrin

Well it's actually a username on a Liverpool site...

http://forums.thisisanfield.com/viewtopic.php?p=387796&sid=2c6fc27624cfa36f2197e58d72e9dfec

[Sir David Gray]

Tend to agree with the sentiment of this thread. Whether or not we like what people are saying, censoring them altogether is just sweeping the matter under the carpet and not giving anyone a chance to challenge their views until the bitter end and hopefully get through to them.

Correct.

I have said this on many occasions but I strongly believe that every single person should have the right to say whatever they like, so long as they do not call for people to be killed or physically hurt in any way. I think people should be free to say things even when they may be considered to be offensive to a lot of people. It is also potentially dangerous to drive "undesirabe" opinions underground.

Censorship of speech is something that I disagree with strongly, except when you encourage murder, physical attacks on people or when you make unfounded allegations against someone.

Those are the only instances where I think free speech should be curtailed.

[--------]

You know how there's always someone to contradict you on Hibs.net? :cool2::greengrin

Well it's actually a username on a Liverpool site...

http://forums.thisisanfield.com/viewtopic.php?p=387796&sid=2c6fc27624cfa36f2197e58d72e9dfec



I HATE to be PEDANTIC.... :wink:


.... but I wasn't aware I could be CONTRADICTED when I was only ASKING A QUESTION? :devil:

That's one magnificent username, mate.

I'm jealous. :rolleyes:

[ancient hibee]

By jove there's a lot of pretentious prats follow football these days.Away and watch netball the lot of ye.

[--------]

By jove there's a lot of pretentious prats follow football these days.Away and watch netball the lot of ye.


Back in yer cage, auld yin!


Not many I can say THAT to on this board.... :wink:

[ancient hibee]

Back in yer cage, auld yin!


Not many I can say THAT to on this board.... :wink:

Just back from Majorca so the sap is rising(mind you saps were what we called jessies in my young days):greengrin