Just to confirm that the BNP are intolerant and intolerable

[lyonhibs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f8lprxiOFc

Jesus Christ.

Sickening and opportunism at its very, very worst :bitchy:

[Sir David Gray]

The people in charge of the BNP are really very stupid people but at the same time, they're also very smart, if that makes any sense. They put themselves across as respectable politicians and produce propaganda (such as that video) which contains messages that will undoubtedly get them votes. They are trying to take advantage of people who are gullible, naive, disillusioned and vulnerable, people who are honestly taken in by their messages and who believe that they will really make a difference.

I do not believe that every single person who votes for the BNP is a racist, fascist sympathiser.

Nick Griffin and his cronies are very dangerous individuals. They now have a foothold in the European parliament and have already made gains in various local elections across England.

A lot of the issues that they campaign about are issues that a lot of people are concerned about, but the way in which they intend to sort out these issues is not acceptable, nor is it in any way helpful.

As you rightly point out, they are very opportunistic. They must be absolutely loving the recession, the MP's expenses scandal and events such as 7/7. They are all things that will entice voters towards them.

I know I go on about radical Muslims quite a lot but the thought of the BNP ever running the country is just as frightening to me as the thought of a British version of the Taliban gaining control.

In many ways they may be polar opposites of each other but in other ways, they are exactly the same and would cause just as many problems in this country with their messages of extremism and hate.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The people in charge of the BNP are really very stupid people but at the same time, they're also very smart, if that makes any sense. They put themselves across as respectable politicians and produce propaganda (such as that video) which contains messages that will undoubtedly get them votes. They are trying to take advantage of people who are gullible, naive, disillusioned and vulnerable, people who are honestly taken in by their messages and who believe that they will really make a difference.

I do not believe that every single person who votes for the BNP is a racist, fascist sympathiser.

Nick Griffin and his cronies are very dangerous individuals. They now have a foothold in the European parliament and have already made gains in various local elections across England.

A lot of the issues that they campaign about are issues that a lot of people are concerned about, but the way in which they intend to sort out these issues is not acceptable, nor is it in any way helpful.

As you rightly point out, they are very opportunistic. They must be absolutely loving the recession, the MP's expenses scandal and events such as 7/7. They are all things that will entice voters towards them.

I know I go on about radical Muslims quite a lot but the thought of the BNP ever running the country is just as frightening to me as the thought of a British version of the Taliban gaining control.

In many ways they may be polar opposites of each other but in other ways, they are exactly the same and would cause just as many problems in this country with their messages of extremism and hate.

It's a very good point, and hopefully people will now see that just as all people in the west are not fundamentalist, fascist driven bigots, that the Taliban only represent a small percentage of the world's muslim population.

[BravestHibs]

The BNP always remind me of Jeremy Kyle, both slimy oppurtunistic rats crawling up the the leg of the poor, stupid and disenfranchised.

I feel it would be my duty to kick both of them right in the fanni if I ever had the chance.

[hibsdaft]

I know I go on about radical Muslims quite a lot but the thought of the BNP ever running the country is just as frightening to me as the thought of a British version of the Taliban gaining control.

In many ways they may be polar opposites of each other but in other ways, they are exactly the same and would cause just as many problems in this country with their messages of extremism and hate.

:agree::agree:

two sides of the same coin

[Betty Boop]

The people in charge of the BNP are really very stupid people but at the same time, they're also very smart, if that makes any sense. They put themselves across as respectable politicians and produce propaganda (such as that video) which contains messages that will undoubtedly get them votes. They are trying to take advantage of people who are gullible, naive, disillusioned and vulnerable, people who are honestly taken in by their messages and who believe that they will really make a difference.

I do not believe that every single person who votes for the BNP is a racist, fascist sympathiser.

Nick Griffin and his cronies are very dangerous individuals. They now have a foothold in the European parliament and have already made gains in various local elections across England.

A lot of the issues that they campaign about are issues that a lot of people are concerned about, but the way in which they intend to sort out these issues is not acceptable, nor is it in any way helpful.

As you rightly point out, they are very opportunistic. They must be absolutely loving the recession, the MP's expenses scandal and events such as 7/7. They are all things that will entice voters towards them.

I know I go on about radical Muslims quite a lot but the thought of the BNP ever running the country is just as frightening to me as the thought of a British version of the Taliban gaining control.

In many ways they may be polar opposites of each other but in other ways, they are exactly the same and would cause just as many problems in this country with their messages of extremism and hate. Just a bit! :greengrin

[Onceinawhile]

Bizarrely the BNPs vote actually went down, it just went up % wise because so few others voted

[Jonnyboy]

Bizarrely the BNPs vote actually went down, it just went up % wise because so few others voted

If only that worked in football too - ICT would have been in Europe :greengrin

[Stanton Sharkey]

I am no BNP fan, however the people who live in bradford, leeds, dewsbury and in other towns in yorkshire and the midlands are turning to this party. Ive been to these towns and it is not nice to walk down some streets knowing i am not welcome there, ive been to baghdad and afghanistan more than once and let me tell you i get the same feeling there as i do in certain parts here, i know that some people will say well you shouldnt be out there, but i expect that response in there countries and im only doing my job as a soldier, however i dont want to feel this way in my own country. Let me put it to you how would you like to walk down to the ground and see that the Easter Road sign is also in urdu, as it is in some towns in the uk, Its time to close the door.

[Tazio]

I am no BNP fan, however the people who live in bradford, leeds, dewsbury and in other towns in yorkshire and the midlands are turning to this party. Ive been to these towns and it is not nice to walk down some streets knowing i am not welcome there, ive been to baghdad and afghanistan more than once and let me tell you i get the same feeling there as i do in certain parts here, i know that some people will say well you shouldnt be out there, but i expect that response in there countries and im only doing my job as a soldier, however i dont want to feel this way in my own country. Let me put it to you how would you like to walk down to the ground and see that the Easter Road sign is also in urdu, as it is in some towns in the uk, Its time to close the door.

I would think "well done Hibs for including all parts of the community"

[Sir David Gray]

I am no BNP fan, however the people who live in bradford, leeds, dewsbury and in other towns in yorkshire and the midlands are turning to this party. Ive been to these towns and it is not nice to walk down some streets knowing i am not welcome there, ive been to baghdad and afghanistan more than once and let me tell you i get the same feeling there as i do in certain parts here, i know that some people will say well you shouldnt be out there, but i expect that response in there countries and im only doing my job as a soldier, however i dont want to feel this way in my own country. Let me put it to you how would you like to walk down to the ground and see that the Easter Road sign is also in urdu, as it is in some towns in the uk, Its time to close the door.


I would think "well done Hibs for including all parts of the community"

I wouldn't.

We speak English in this country and if you come and live here, and English isn't your native tongue, you should make every attempt to learn to speak/write it to a reasonable standard. That is one of the fundamental ways that you can integrate into your new country.

I really fail to see why we should waste millions of pounds in employing translators and printing leaflets in Urdu, Arabic, Polish or Chinese etc when a lot of people have been here for years and simply haven't bothered even trying to learn English.

By all means, speak your native language within your own home, or when speaking to friends, but when you are out in the public or at your workplace, you should be expected to speak English.

I can just about make an exception for Gaelic speakers but even then we are spending millions on a language that only 1% of the Scottish population actually speaks.

[Tazio]

And how many British people working and living in the Middle East or Hong Kong can read Arabic or Chinese? Learning a new alphabet is a lot harder than learning a language. My father in law speaks around 6 languages but his English writing and spelling is atrocious.

[hibsdaft]

Bizarrely the BNPs vote actually went down, it just went up % wise because so few others voted

no. their vote went up from around 810K to 930K.

[hibsdaft]

I am no BNP fan, however the people who live in bradford, leeds, dewsbury...

ive been to these places too.

as Falkirk Hibs say, theres racist whites and theirs racist asians and theres racist anyones.

sounds like you've a few hard years, i can't imagine how mental it is to come home from that. but i've been to these places too and the majority are not thinking these things - some are. of course, no doubt. but as the common sense majority we have to ignore these knuckledraggers and remember that most people are genuinely sane on both sides, much to the annoyance of both sides of mentalists.

[hibsdaft]

By all means, speak your native language within your own home, or when speaking to friends, but when you are out in the public or at your workplace, you should be expected to speak English.

never in my life have i had anyone but a tourist try to speak to me in anything but English here in Edinburgh. not always perfect English but then my brother in France doesn't speak perfect French and i am not going to harangue him for that.

i think you're talking about imaginary people tbh, ghost people just like yr old avatar.

feel free to tell me of your experiences otherwise though.

[ArabHibee]

I wouldn't.

We speak English in this country and if you come and live here, and English isn't your native tongue, you should make every attempt to learn to speak/write it to a reasonable standard. That is one of the fundamental ways that you can integrate into your new country.

I really fail to see why we should waste millions of pounds in employing translators and printing leaflets in Urdu, Arabic, Polish or Chinese etc when a lot of people have been here for years and simply haven't bothered even trying to learn English.

By all means, speak your native language within your own home, or when speaking to friends, but when you are out in the public or at your workplace, you should be expected to speak English.

I can just about make an exception for Gaelic speakers but even then we are spending millions on a language that only 1% of the Scottish population actually speaks.

:top marksTotally agree with you and if that makes me the minority, then so be it. If you want to come and live in this country, then learn the language and respect the natives. If I went to live and work elsewhere I wouldn't expect to be pandered to and would make sure that I tried to fit in and respect that particular country's customs.


never in my life have i had anyone but a tourist try to speak to me in anything but English here in Edinburgh. not always perfect English but then my brother in France doesn't speak perfect French and i am not going to harangue him for that.

i think you're talking about imaginary people tbh, ghost people just like yr old avatar.

feel free to tell me of your experiences otherwise though.
I find that very hard to believe, especially in Edinburgh. I could give you many examples of staff that worked in the company I jointly ran, absolutely no intention of learning the language, only over here to make a quick buck and to bugger off back home after a couple of years.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I've got mixed feelings about how far you go to help immigrants settle. I'm with FH to an extent that people should try to learn the language of the place they are going to make their living.

But then, you go to the south of Spain, and come across these massive white housing schemes that stretch the length of the coast, and you speak to some of the ex pats there, and very few of them have any intention of learning Spanish. I saw a programme on the box about one of these white settlers, who was setting up a hairdressing business, and she expected the people in the Spanish tax office to speak to her in English!

Then when I was up at the city chambers sorting out my council tax, I had a problem finding the right form, as there was over 15 versions of it, in every language you could imagine - including Welsh!!! FFS, how many non English speaking Welsh speakers are going to need to sort out Edinburgh council tax?

The problem with this whole multi lingual approach that is prevalent, is that like a lot of the PC stuff, no-one has actually asked for it. Well meaning administrators - well some of them are, others I reckon have got their own axe to grind with society - have decided that we should make Britain a multi cultural nation. No one asked them to!

I reckon that a country has to say which languages are official langiages. Imagine the chaos if the law - something that clever linguists twist to their own advantage - was in six different languages? How could you have consistency?

On the other hand, I welcome new communities coming into this country. I'm not scared to learn from different cultures. I think some people are, the ones who have never thought for themselves, but relied on their own position within the favoured tribe, to get them through life. I've said it before, I'd rather be served by an immigrant at KFC, than some Scottish teenager, who thinks the whole thing is way below them.

As for the hostility in Bradford and West Yorks. It is regrettable, but what can we expect when our country is waging a war on Islam. Many of these people are the sons of immigrants who came to this country, fully intending to work hard and become British. What welcome did we give them. These people saw their parents abused for their colour and ethnicity, so how can we expect them to be grateful to the white population.

It seems that the British have learned nothing from the chaos that dividing a population so you can rule it brings. Then again, maybe it's exactly what they want, because if we're fighting each other, we aren't fighting for better housing or better pay.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I find that very hard to believe, especially in Edinburgh. I could give you many examples of staff that worked in the company I jointly ran, absolutely no intention of learning the language, only over here to make a quick buck and to bugger off back home after a couple of years.

Have to say that in four years of driving a taxi, there was only one occasion where the passengers refused to speak a word of English - they were from Spain, and must have gotten the impression that you only have to speak your own language when you go abroad. I can't think where they saw people behaving like that.:bitchy:

I'm sure that you were one of the few employers who didn't take advantage of the fact that immigrants tend to work harder for less pay. However, there are highly skilled people working in fast food restaurants, as that is the only work they can find.

I know of one financial services company, with Dutch owners, that happily lets Poles work in menial tasks, despite the fact that they are far better qualified than some of the existing staff. Guess who gets the promotions when they come round?

In Fife, there are very few immigrant nurses in the NHS. You might get the impression that they are happier to offer the post to someone from Ballingry who finds it hard to communicate in English, than to someone from Poland who is able to speak four languages.

[Steve-O]

Perhaps there should be an English test when applying for immigration to the UK, but thinking this and voting BNP is a whole different ball game.

I certainly don't 'expect' people to know English if I go on holiday, it just so happens that a lot of people do, particularly compared to the amount of Brits who know a second language.

I probably wouldn't choose to live in a country where I didn't speak the language though.

[BravestHibs]

:top marksTotally agree with you and if that makes me the minority, then so be it. If you want to come and live in this country, then learn the language and respect the natives. If I went to live and work elsewhere I wouldn't expect to be pandered to and would make sure that I tried to fit in and respect that particular country's customs.


I find that very hard to believe, especially in Edinburgh. I could give you many examples of staff that worked in the company I jointly ran, absolutely no intention of learning the language, only over here to make a quick buck and to bugger off back home after a couple of years.

Who's pandering to anyone? Why does this term always come out when this kind of discussion comes up? What's wrong with making visitors to this country feel welcome? If you felt so strongly about these people coming over here to make a quick buck why did you continue to employ them? Is it because you didn't have to pay them as much? To me it smacks of a blinkered, narrow view of the world and one which propegates parties such as the BNP. Whether you like to admit or not.

I'd also challenge anyone to master a language in two years. This country has an appalling record for learning a second language so to condemn the few people who do come to this country and don't already speak English as a matter of course is so hypocritical it makes tears of frustration roll down my face that in a country with one of the (supposedly) best education systems in the world views such as yours can still exist.

[Allant1981]

Who's pandering to anyone? Why does this term always come out when this kind of discussion comes up? What's wrong with making visitors to this country feel welcome? If you felt so strongly about these people coming over here to make a quick buck why did you continue to employ them? Is it because you didn't have to pay them as much? To me it smacks of a blinkered, narrow view of the world and one which propegates parties such as the BNP. Whether you like to admit or not.

I'd also challenge anyone to master a language in two years. This country has an appalling record for learning a second language so to condemn the few people who do come to this country and don't already speak English as a matter of course is so hypocritical it makes tears of frustration roll down my face that in a country with one of the (supposedly) best education systems in the world views such as yours can still exist.

Why is it hypocritical? These people come to our country to work so the least that should be expected is that they can speak the language. I work in a very big hotel and have loads of different nationalities and there are loads who can barely speak english. This leads to confusion over various things and sometimes the guests complain as they have asked for something and they haven't got it as the person didnt have a clue what was being asked

[BravestHibs]

Why is it hypocritical? These people come to our country to work so the least that should be expected is that they can speak the language. I work in a very big hotel and have loads of different nationalities and there are loads who can barely speak english. This leads to confusion over various things and sometimes the guests complain as they have asked for something and they haven't got it as the person didnt have a clue what was being asked

It's hypocritical because people from the UK are so notoriously bad at learning a second language. The worst in the world.

[Allant1981]

It's hypocritical because people from the UK are so notoriously bad at learning a second language. The worst in the world.


Yes it would be hypocritical if we were all to move to France, Spain etc and not learn the language but we are here in our own country so the least we should expect is others to learn the language if they want to work/live in our society

[BravestHibs]

Yes it would be hypocritical if we were all to move to France, Spain etc and not learn the language but we are here in our own country so the least we should expect is others to learn the language if they want to work/live in our society

There are more Brits in Spain and France than vice versa, that is a fact another fact is that the Brits are known the world over for their, in my view embarrassing, lack of a second language, or even the basics of a secod language. The ones who come to work are from countries which hold absolutely no comparison to the UK, such as Poland, Slovakia and other Baltic states, the reason they come over here is due to the fact their respective countries have little or no opportunities for work unlike here in the UK. If the roles were reversed and Slovakia was one of the most affluent countries in the world and you were sitting jobless in the UK with a family to feed would you spend three or four years mastering Slovakian before you went over there or would you just go? My guess is the latter.

[Allant1981]

There are more Brits in Spain and France than vice versa, that is a fact another fact is that the Brits are known the world over for their, in my view embarrassing, lack of a second language, or even the basics of a secod language. The ones who come to work are from countries which hold absolutely no comparison to the UK, such as Poland, Slovakia and other Baltic states, the reason they come over here is due to the fact their respective countries have little or no opportunities for work unlike here in the UK. If the roles were reversed and Slovakia was one of the most affluent countries in the world and you were sitting jobless in the UK with a family to feed would you spend three or four years mastering Slovakian before you went over there or would you just go? My guess is the latter.


As I do not know how many brits are in Spain or France then I will need to take your word for it. My point is that why should we not expect people who want to live/work in our country to speak the language. As Ive stated I work in a place where there are loads of people who cant speak English and we run English classes and you are lucky if they have half a dozen people turn up which is pretty poor.
And the answer to your final part is yes I probably would try and learn the basics of the language of whatever country I was in but thats just me

[BravestHibs]

As I do not know how many brits are in Spain or France then I will need to take your word for it. My point is that why should we not expect people who want to live/work in our country to speak the language. As Ive stated I work in a place where there are loads of people who cant speak English and we run English classes and you are lucky if they have half a dozen people turn up which is pretty poor.
And the answer to your final part is yes I probably would try and learn the basics of the language of whatever country I was in but thats just me

It seems almost as though you think that these people come over here without a shred of English with the express of view of winding you, and people that share your views up. The best way to a learn a language is to go and live in the country whose language you want to learn. By this logic these people are actually doing what you are assuming they aren't right under your nose. You are also assuming that every single person who comes over here to work can automatically afford to attend a language school before they come over. This is not the case.

[Peevemor]

There are more Brits in Spain and France than vice versa, that is a fact another fact is that the Brits are known the world over for their, in my view embarrassing, lack of a second language, or even the basics of a secod language.

While it's true that, compared to other countries, relatively few Brits have a second language, there is a good reason for this - we don't need to. English is the most spoken language in the Western world.

In continental Europe, many people speak English to some degree, not because they are less lazy or arrogant than the British, but because they are saturated with English language culture.

Anyone listening to songs on the radio or (nowadays) using a computer will pick up a certain amount of English by default. French tv, for example, shows a ridiculous amount of English language programmes and, even though they are dubbed, you still pick up bits and pieces.

So Brits abroad - Embarrassing? - possibly. Insular? - no more than anyone else.

[Allant1981]

It seems almost as though you think that these people come over here without a shred of English with the express of view of winding you, and people that share your views up. The best way to a learn a language is to go and live in the country whose language you want to learn. By this logic these people are actually doing what you are assuming they aren't right under your nose. You are also assuming that every single person who comes over here to work can automatically afford to attend a language school before they come over. This is not the case.


Where did I say they should attend an english school. As you will see i did not. The one I have stated is free and yet staff still cant be bothered to attend, I do not think they come here to wind me or anyone up, I take my hat off to anyone who wants to come and work but I will stand by my view that they should be at least able to hold a conversation

[Phil D. Rolls]

How many jobs are immigrants taking away from native Scots when employers have to hire people who cannot speak English? You'd think that, given the choice of two applicants, you'd go for the one that could speak English. So, what do the immigrants bring to the table, that our own people don't?

Is it that they will work harder than the indigenous Scots, or is it that the natives aren't even applying for these jobs? It seems to me they must be offering something that isn't readily available here.

IMO people will do the minimum that is required to get by. If there is no incentive for them to learn another language, they won't. That's why we have to be careful, we are lucky to speak a language that is known the world over, so we have less incentive to speak another, than someone from, say, the Netherlands.

I often think that those people who say how immigrants should behave, have no experience of working or living abroad. Or, if they do, they lack empathy skills and can't transfer their own experiences onto someone else's life.

I get frustrated when people can't speak English. The number of private hire drivers who can't speak it very well is a good example. Some of the immigrant drivers are no better! However, they are willing to do the job, and we have a choice about whether we use them.

The problems we are having integrating different cultures has gotten a lot harder because of the number of people coming to these shores. We cannot allow ghettos to develop, one way that happens is for the existing citizens to be obstructive, another is to give immigrants no incentive to integrate.

Mind you, integrate into what? All this talk of British culture and values, makes me laugh. What exactly are these high minded ideals that we want people to aspire to?

Poor sods, you have to imagine what they have left, for working in a takeaway in Pilton to seem like a step up.

[Stanton Sharkey]

Seems a 50/50 split on this subject, however there are possibly a few on here who havent been or lived in yorkshire and the midlands, i would almost garantee the maj of people in edinburgh or any where in scotland would be very unhappy if we where flooded with immagrants, and it will be the working class who will suffer the most, i find it hard to pay taxes to give to our own dossers never mind immagrants who live off the state, NHS, public services, housing, to name but a few are already under a great deal of stress because of the influx of immagrants who do not pay there way. I totaly agree with BRITISH JOBS FOR BRITISH PEOPLE and i dont care if people think i am a racist. This will only get worse over time!

[BravestHibs]

While it's true that, compared to other countries, relatively few Brits have a second language, there is a good reason for this - we don't need to. English is the most spoken language in the Western world.

In continental Europe, many people speak English to some degree, not because they are less lazy or arrogant than the British, but because they are saturated with English language culture.

Anyone listening to songs on the radio or (nowadays) using a computer will pick up a certain amount of English by default. French tv, for example, shows a ridiculous amount of English language programmes and, even though they are dubbed, you still pick up bits and pieces.

So Brits abroad - Embarrassing? - possibly. Insular? - no more than anyone else.

I wouldn't say that France is saturated with English language culture. Not at all. Dubbed programmes are by no means a way to pick up a language. The reason for a greater number being able to speak the language is more down to a favourable culture within education where kids begin to learn languages at a much earlier age, it is proven that when you are a child it is much easier to pick up a language than when you reach adolescence which is, or at least was when I went to school when you start learning French/German/Spanish. While I'm not disagreeing with you on your point about English being alot more widely spoken and therefore alot more widely learnt, what I would disagree with you on is your point that the Brits are no more or less lazy than any other country in the world with regards to learning a second language. There has been research, I can't give you a link as I read it ages ago, that points towards the human brain being built to be able to accomadate more than one language, if you go to France, as an example, there are places particularly around the Basque region where it is the norm to speak three languages fluently, Basque, French and Spanish, or certain regions in Africa where there are 5 or 6 languages spoken as a matter of course. Now why aren't these people expecting one another to know each others languages? It's not because they are as lazy as the Brits in this respect that's for sure.

[BravestHibs]

Seems a 50/50 split on this subject, however there are possibly a few on here who havent been or lived in yorkshire and the midlands, i would almost garantee the maj of people in edinburgh or any where in scotland would be very unhappy if we where flooded with immagrants, and it will be the working class who will suffer the most, i find it hard to pay taxes to give to our own dossers never mind immagrants who live off the state, NHS, public services, housing, to name but a few are already under a great deal of stress because of the influx of immagrants who do not pay there way. I totaly agree with BRITISH JOBS FOR BRITISH PEOPLE and i dont care if people think i am a racist. This will only get worse over time!

Sweet Jesus.

What has living in Yorkshire got to do with anything?

[Peevemor]

I wouldn't say that France is saturated with English language culture. Not at all. Dubbed programmes are by no means a way to pick up a language. The reason for a greater number being able to speak the language is more down to a favourable culture within education where kids begin to learn languages at a much earlier age, it is proven that when you are a child it is much easier to pick up a language than when you reach adolescence which is, or at least was when I went to school when you start learning French/German/Spanish. While I'm not disagreeing with you on your point about English being alot more widely spoken and therefore alot more widely learnt, what I would disagree with you on is your point that the Brits are no more or less lazy than any other country in the world with regards to learning a second language. There has been research, I can't give you a link as I read it ages ago, that points towards the human brain being built to be able to accomadate more than one language, if you go to France, as an example, there are places particularly around the Basque region where it is the norm to speak three languages fluently, Basque, French and Spanish, or certain regions in Africa where there are 5 or 6 languages spoken as a matter of course. Now why aren't these people expecting one another to know each others languages? It's not because they are as lazy as the Brits in this respect that's for sure.

Woah!

I've lived in France for knocking on 5 years and was a very regular visitor (had a flat here) prior to that.

I know exactly what is broadcast on tv and radio here, and there is no escaping the English language. Here's the "series" part of TF1's website (French eqivalent of ITV).

http://www.tf1.fr/series-tv/

Look at the 3 pages of programmes and you'll see the amount of American (mostly) pish that is broadcast.

The only way to learn a language is to use it/have contact with it. If you are learning English at school, then go home and listen to a dozen English songs then watch 3 episodes at a time (which is how they're shown) of CSI or House MD, then you are coming into contact with English.

This doesn't happen with a British kid learning a foreign language.

In addition, in France it's accepted that to succeed as a professional, a certain level of English is mandatory. That's not the case in the UK with other languages.

As for people being naturally capable of learning multiple languages, you don't have to tell me. I have a 4 year old daughter who was born here - Scottish Dad, Breton Mum (who speaks 4 languages). :cool2:

[Stanton Sharkey]

Sweet Jesus.

What has living in Yorkshire got to do with anything?
Everything mate, what is happening there will spread further north, there are ghettos of immagrants who dont want to integrate into our society, so dont patronize me mate, see how you feel when its on your own doorstep!

[New Corrie]

Seems a 50/50 split on this subject, however there are possibly a few on here who havent been or lived in yorkshire and the midlands, i would almost garantee the maj of people in edinburgh or any where in scotland would be very unhappy if we where flooded with immagrants, and it will be the working class who will suffer the most, i find it hard to pay taxes to give to our own dossers never mind immagrants who live off the state, NHS, public services, housing, to name but a few are already under a great deal of stress because of the influx of immagrants who do not pay there way. I totaly agree with BRITISH JOBS FOR BRITISH PEOPLE and i dont care if people think i am a racist. This will only get worse over time!



I think you make some valid points. Some folks might think differently if they lived in Dewsbury, Luton, Bradford etc etc, but they don't, they live. generally in Central Scotland where in reality we don't have the immigration issues associated with the aformentioned towns. The BNP's share of the vote in Scotland is half of what they polled in England, yet we only have a fraction of immigrants "per head" in Scotland in comparison. Yiou can rest assured that if Edinburgh was turned into some sort of Birmingham, the BNP would prosper no end. You should sometimes look beyond what's said on message boards, because in reality those who preach the moral high ground would be the first to greet if you relocated them to the middle of Bradford or if a family of Muslims moved in next door to them. Yes the BNP are repellent, but this is what always happens when people feel disenfranchised. 950 000 is far to many people to be ignored. Mainstream politicians need to reconnect with them and take on board their concerns.

[BravestHibs]

Woah!

I've lived in France for knocking on 5 years and was a very regular visitor (had a flat here) for prior to that.

I know exactly what is broadcast on tv and radio here, and there is no escaping the English language. Here's the "series" part of TF1's website (French eqivalent of ITV).

http://www.tf1.fr/series-tv/

Look at the 3 pages of programmes and you'll see the amount of American (mostly) pish that is broadcast.

The only way to learn a language is to use it/have contact with it. If you are learning English at school, then go home and listen to a dozen English songs then watch 3 episodes at a time (which is how they're shown) of CSI or House MD, then you are coming into contact with English.

This doesn't happen with a British kid learning a foreign language.

In addition, in France it's accepted that to succeed as a professional, a certain level of English is mandatory. That's not the case in the UK with other languages.

As for people being naturally capable of learning multiple languages, you don't have to tell me. I have a 4 year old daughter who was born here - Scottish Dad, Breton Mum (who speaks 4 languages). :cool2:

I personally have a Breton dad and Scottish mum. He's from a town called Landerneau, you might be familiar with it. My mother was from Glasgow (which raises questions about language as well, albeit seperate ones) she is bilingual. Because she worked at it. She didn't have to, as my dad speaks English, but she wanted to. I have found as well that once you have a certain level in one language other languages become easier to learn as a result. The brain is a muscle and all that and if you exercise the language bit it becomes stronger.

I've spent my fair share of time in France as well. My first two years of school were spent in Paris and the vast majority of my family are French. I'm not denying that the TV programmes are made in English originally but they are not aired in English, they are as you mentioned before, dubbed into French. Granted, there are alot of English language songs on the radio.

I take your point about it being expected that you learn English as a matter of course in order to further a profesional career as well. However, learning a second language is a life skill and I know that if I ever have kids I will live in a non English speaking country, not necessarily France, in order for them to have this life skill. If everyone relied on other people doing things for them the human race wouldn't have advanced very far would it. That's my point, granted, there is more of a motivator for people to learn English but that doesn't excuse the culture of minimal importance placed on learning a second language. Because I can guarantee, no matter which language you learn, it'll definitely come in handy at least once in your life.

[BravestHibs]

Everything mate, what is happening there will spread further north, there are ghettos of immagrants who dont want to integrate into our society, so dont patronize me mate, see how you feel when its on your own doorstep!

Well I live in Yorkshire. Mate. So I suppose it already is. I just don't share your blanket hatred is all. If it wasn't for the likes of you people wouldn't feel the need to live within 'ghettos' now would they.

[Allant1981]

I personally have a Breton dad and Scottish mum. He's from a town called Landerneau, you might be familiar with it. My mother was from Glasgow (which raises questions about language as well, albeit seperate ones) she is bilingual. Because she worked at it. She didn't have to, as my dad speaks English, but she wanted to. I have found as well that once you have a certain level in one language other languages become easier to learn as a result. The brain is a muscle and all that and if you exercise the language bit it becomes stronger.

I've spent my fair share of time in France as well. My first two years of school were spent in Paris and the vast majority of my family are French. I'm not denying that the TV programmes are made in English originally but they are not aired in English, they are as you mentioned before, dubbed into French. Granted, there are alot of English language songs on the radio.

I take your point about it being expected that you learn English as a matter of course in order to further a profesional career as well. However, learning a second language is a life skill and I know that if I ever have kids I will live in a non English speaking country, not necessarily France, in order for them to have this life skill. If everyone relied on other people doing things for them the human race wouldn't have advanced very far would it. That's my point, granted, there is more of a motivator for people to learn English but that doesn't excuse the culture of minimal importance placed on learning a second language. Because I can guarantee, no matter which language you learn, it'll definitely come in handy at least once in your life.


Why move abroad to a non english speaking country for your kid to learn a language. If you are that motivated for him/her to learn a new language then surely you can do that here?

[BravestHibs]

Why move abroad to a non english speaking country for your kid to learn a language. If you are that motivated for him/her to learn a new language then surely you can do that here?

Why wouldn't I want to move abroad? As far as I'm concerned the more I see and experience the more fulfilled a life I'll have led. The same will go for my children. And the best way to experience different things, in my opinion, is to see and experience as many different countries and cultures as possible. I'm privelaged to be able to come back to the UK whenever I choose, equally, thanks to my British passport I'm free to travel almost anywhere in the world. Why would I waste an opportunity like that?

[Stanton Sharkey]

Well I live in Yorkshire. Mate. So I suppose it already is. I just don't share your blanket hatred is all. If it wasn't for the likes of you people wouldn't feel the need to live within 'ghettos' now would they.
What ever mate, we will agree to disagree, just one point, the people who live within these ghettos probably dont have a choice where they live, as local councils place them there and the very vast maj of the people who live there sponge of the state. This will come to scotland unless we shut the door, i pay my taxes, and live in a "free" country, so i will carry on having a point of view even if it may p#ss the do-gooders off.

[Allant1981]

Why wouldn't I want to move abroad? As far as I'm concerned the more I see and experience the more fulfilled a life I'll have led. The same will go for my children. And the best way to experience different things, in my opinion, is to see and experience as many different countries and cultures as possible. I'm privelaged to be able to come back to the UK whenever I choose, equally, thanks to my British passport I'm free to travel almost anywhere in the world. Why would I waste an opportunity like that?


I was only curious, just out of interest have you learnt the language of every country you have been in? Top marks if you have. I couldnt get my head round standard grade French but maybe thats because by the time they try to make you learn it you either have an interest or you dont

[BravestHibs]

What ever mate, we will agree to disagree, just one point, the people who live within these ghettos probably dont have a choice where they live, as local councils place them there and the very vast maj of the people who live there sponge of the state. This will come to scotland unless we shut the door, i pay my taxes, and live in a "free" country, so i will carry on having a point of view even if it may p#ss the do-gooders off.

But you said they don't want to integrate. Now you're saying they don't have a choice where they live. What do you mean by do-gooders? Non racists?

[Peevemor]

I personally have a Breton dad and Scottish mum. He's from a town called Landerneau, you might be familiar with it. My mother was from Glasgow (which raises questions about language as well, albeit seperate ones) she is bilingual. Because she worked at it. She didn't have to, as my dad speaks English, but she wanted to. I have found as well that once you have a certain level in one language other languages become easier to learn as a result. The brain is a muscle and all that and if you exercise the language bit it becomes stronger.

I've spent my fair share of time in France as well. My first two years of school were spent in Paris and the vast majority of my family are French. I'm not denying that the TV programmes are made in English originally but they are not aired in English, they are as you mentioned before, dubbed into French. Granted, there are alot of English language songs on the radio.

I take your point about it being expected that you learn English as a matter of course in order to further a profesional career as well. However, learning a second language is a life skill and I know that if I ever have kids I will live in a non English speaking country, not necessarily France, in order for them to have this life skill. If everyone relied on other people doing things for them the human race wouldn't have advanced very far would it. That's my point, granted, there is more of a motivator for people to learn English but that doesn't excuse the culture of minimal importance placed on learning a second language. Because I can guarantee, no matter which language you learn, it'll definitely come in handy at least once in your life.

Ah, Landerne - a great part of the world - I spent a weekend there a couple of years ago. :thumbsup:

I think we are basically in agreement, all I am saying is that the British are often generally accused of being lazy, ignorant and insular with regard to other languages, when IMHO there's more to it than that.

[BravestHibs]

I was only curious, just out of interest have you learnt the language of every country you have been in? Top marks if you have. I couldnt get my head round standard grade French but maybe thats because by the time they try to make you learn it you either have an interest or you dont

Every country I've lived in. Not every country I've spent a weekend in though. Those Slavic languages look like a total b1tch to learn. I was lucky though, I was raised speaking two languages. It wasn't even really a choice it's just the way it happened. I'm not having a go at individuals for not having a second language, even though I realise I may come across smug and superior, that honestly isn't my intention. All I'm trying to do is make a point that within the UK, rightly or wrongly, I don't feel that enough importance is placed on learning a second language when, in my view, it can be one of the best things anyone can ever do.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Sweet Jesus.

What has living in Yorkshire got to do with anything?

I'm not unsympathetic with this point of view. It is very difficult for people to adjust when the society around them changes. Take riding a bus in Edinburgh at rush hour. You will hear four or five people shouting into mobile phones, all in different languages. Whether you like it or not, your brain tries to make sense of the sounds around you, and when it can't, the feeling is uncomfortable.

We are lucky up here, because I believe there is enough space for everyone. If you go to crowded places like London, it just adds to the distress of daily living.

I don't think the answer is to prevent incomers from coming though. I feel that the story of these islands has been the ever changing culture, and that - not some idyll of a Albion populated by one race - is what has made Britain great.

And of course, we would have to accept that British jobs were for British people only, then Dutch, French, American, and German jobs are for people who were born there. It just isn't possible.

[Allant1981]

Every country I've lived in. I was lucky though, I was raised speaking two languages. It wasn't even really a choice it's just the way it happened. I'm not having a go at individuals for not having a second language, even though I realise I may come across smug and superior, that honestly isn't my intention.All I'm trying to do is make a point that within the UK, rightly or wrongly, I don't feel that enough importance is placed on learning a second language when, in my view, it can be one of the best things anyone can ever do.


At last we agree, if it were up to me then I would have primary school kids learning another language but its not so it probably wont happen

[Allant1981]

I'm not unsympathetic with this point of view. It is very difficult for people to adjust when the society around them changes. Take riding a bus in Edinburgh at rush hour. You will hear four or five people shouting into mobile phones, all in different languages. Whether you like it or not, your brain tries to make sense of the sounds around you, and when it can't, the feeling is uncomfortable.

We are lucky up here, because I believe there is enough space for everyone. If you go to crowded places like London, it just adds to the distress of daily living.

I don't think the answer is to prevent incomers from coming though. I feel that the story of these islands has been the ever changing culture, and that - not some idyll of a Albion populated by one race - is what has made Britain great.

And of course, we would have to accept that British jobs were for British people only, then Dutch, French, American, and German jobs are for people who were born there. It just isn't possible.


I agree we shouldnt prevent others from coming into the country but surely there has to be some criteria of who can come in and who cant?

[BravestHibs]

I'm not unsympathetic with this point of view. It is very difficult for people to adjust when the society around them changes. Take riding a bus in Edinburgh at rush hour. You will hear four or five people shouting into mobile phones, all in different languages. Whether you like it or not, your brain tries to make sense of the sounds around you, and when it can't, the feeling is uncomfortable.

We are lucky up here, because I believe there is enough space for everyone. If you go to crowded places like London, it just adds to the distress of daily living.

I don't think the answer is to prevent incomers from coming though. I feel that the story of these islands has been the ever changing culture, and that - not some idyll of a Albion populated by one race - is what has made Britain great.

And of course, we would have to accept that British jobs were for British people only, then Dutch, French, American, and German jobs are for people who were born there. It just isn't possible.

Quite the opposite for me. Something new is exciting or intriguing, not uncomfortable. The human race is so prevelant because it can adapt so well to its surroundings. I honestly cannot understand the mindset of someone who wouldn't want to experience as many different cultures as possible. Be it here or abroad.

[Peevemor]

At last we agree, if it were up to me then I would have primary school kids learning another language but its not so it probably wont happen

So would I, but where is the motiviation for kids that age to learn a language that they only ever use at school?

I did Higher French, but it was 7 or 8 years before I visited France after I left school - I had forgotten almost everything!

[Allant1981]

So would I, but where is the motiviation for kids that age to learn a language that they only ever use at school?

I did Higher French, but it was 7 or 8 years before I visited France after I left school - I had forgotten almost everything!


I suppose its depends on how its taught, it doesnt have to be the same strict way that most things are taught. If you make something interesting enough then kids and adults alike are probably more likely to learn it. When I had to take French at high school it was very boring which made me lose interest very quickly

[Peevemor]

I suppose its depends on how its taught, it doesnt have to be the same strict way that most things are taught. If you make something interesting enough then kids and adults alike are probably more likely to learn it. When I had to take French at high school it was very boring which made me lose interest very quickly

... but if half the songs in the charts were French, it would have been much more interesting, therefore easier.

[Stanton Sharkey]

But you said they don't want to integrate. Now you're saying they don't have a choice where they live. What do you mean by do-gooders? Non racists?
Think what you want mate, if you think wanting to stop more immagration is racist then i must be in your eyes, do you think it is great letting whoever into this country to sponge of the goverment, then im happy for you. This is not a nice world mate where all people get on, its a dog eat dog world, face up to it!

[BravestHibs]

So would I, but where is the motiviation for kids that age to learn a language that they only ever use at school?

I did Higher French, but it was 7 or 8 years before I visited France after I left school - I had forgotten almost everything!

But learning the language would give them so much more confidence to then go and put it to good use though. Do you not find that one of the best things in the world is that look of admiration when there is a problem caused by the language barrier that you can then breeze into the middle of and resolve in a matter of seconds. It is for me.

[BravestHibs]

... but if half the songs in the charts were French, it would have been much more interesting, therefore easier.

I could cope with some MC Solaar and the 'Bad Boyz de Marseille' in the top 40. Break up the all the soulless plastic p1sh you get over here.

[Allant1981]

Think what you want mate, if you think wanting to stop more immagration is racist then i must be in your eyes, do you think it is great letting whoever into this country to sponge of the goverment, then im happy for you. This is not a nice world mate where all people get on, its a dog eat dog world, face up to it!


I agree we need to watch who comes into our country but say you had the chance to earn 4 times your salary in another country and when you got there something happened and you lost your job. Would you seek help from that government

[Peevemor]

But learning the language would give them so much more confidence to then go and put it to good use though. Do you not find that one of the best things in the world is that look of admiration when there is a problem caused by the language barrier that you can then breeze into the middle of and resolve in a matter of seconds. It is for me.

Unless they don't regularly come into contact with that language in their everyday life, and thus find it very difficult to learn (which is the case for most Brits). This could shatter their confidence.

[BravestHibs]

Think what you want mate, if you think wanting to stop more immagration is racist then i must be in your eyes, do you think it is great letting whoever into this country to sponge of the goverment, then im happy for you. This is not a nice world mate where all people get on, its a dog eat dog world, face up to it!

It is so a nice world. It's a nice world with bad bits in it, granted. But a nice world none the less.

The thing is though, we already have measures in place to stop people coming in. We don't need more. It's the way you assume that people are just coming over to sponge off the government. It's like you are repeating a BNP manifesto. Try this just to add a bit of balance. I honestly would like to hear what you think of this article.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prejudice-and-ignorance-skew-public-view-of-asylumseekers-1699213.html

[BravestHibs]

Unless they don't regularly come into contact with that language in their everyday life, and thus find it very difficult to learn (which is the case for most Brits). This could shatter their confidence.

That's what I mean though, it would give you the confidence to then put yourself into a situation where you are in contact with it. Not just in France, but large swathes of Africa, the South Pacific as well as Quebec in Canada. All doors that would otherwise remain, more or less shut otherwise.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Quite the opposite for me. Something new is exciting or intriguing, not uncomfortable. The human race is so prevelant because it can adapt so well to its surroundings. I honestly cannot understand the mindset of someone who wouldn't want to experience as many different cultures as possible. Be it here or abroad.

I like to experience different cultures, just not all at once! I agree though, the human race does just get on with it and things settle down, but it doesn't happen overnight. Inevitably there is some friction whilst the different culture adapt to each other.

[lyonhibs]

I wouldn't.

We speak English in this country and if you come and live here, and English isn't your native tongue, you should make every attempt to learn to speak/write it to a reasonable standard. That is one of the fundamental ways that you can integrate into your new country.

I really fail to see why we should waste millions of pounds in employing translators and printing leaflets in Urdu, Arabic, Polish or Chinese etc when a lot of people have been here for years and simply haven't bothered even trying to learn English.

By all means, speak your native language within your own home, or when speaking to friends, but when you are out in the public or at your workplace, you should be expected to speak English.

I can just about make an exception for Gaelic speakers but even then we are spending millions on a language that only 1% of the Scottish population actually speaks.

Ok, assuming that people who have been here for years and STILL don't speak English actually exist (and I suspect such people are few and far between, especially compared - statistically - with the horders of ex-pat Brits that move to parts of Spain (in particular) and never learn more than "Hola, dos cervezas por favor") for those coming into Britain from foreign countries, particularly those whose native language doesn't even originate from the same linguisitic bases (e.g. predominantely Latin) as English (e.g Chinese and Urdu speakers), how are they to be expected to successfully integrate, fill out all the required paperwork, start their own business/apply for a job if all this initial paperwork isn't avaliable in their native language??

Whilst they may well be busting a gut to learn English on their own time, that doesn't happen overnight. Without the paperwork avaliable in their own language, they'd be hard pushed to know where to begin. How would you propse they integrate in that situation??

I'm not saying every little bit of official Government paper should be produced in 32 languages, but those most vital to incoming (legal, I hasten to add) immigrants should be IMO :agree:

[Woody1985]

Ok, assuming that people who have been here for years and STILL don't speak English actually exist (and I suspect such people are few and far between, especially compared - statistically - with the horders of ex-pat Brits that move to parts of Spain (in particular) and never learn more than "Hola, dos cervezas por favor") for those coming into Britain from foreign countries, particularly those whose native language doesn't even originate from the same linguisitic bases (e.g. predominantely Latin) as English (e.g Chinese and Urdu speakers), how are they to be expected to successfully integrate, fill out all the required paperwork, start their own business/apply for a job if all this initial paperwork isn't avaliable in their native language??

Whilst they may well be busting a gut to learn English on their own time, that doesn't happen overnight. Without the paperwork avaliable in their own language, they'd be hard pushed to know where to begin. How would you propse they integrate in that situation??

I'm not saying every little bit of official Government paper should be produced in 32 languages, but those most vital to incoming (legal, I hasten to add) immigrants should be IMO :agree:

They do exist. No question about it.

I have friends whose parents migrated to this country when they were in their 20s and only the father speaks limited English. The mother has made no attempt to speak English and only speaks to her sons / husband in her native tounge.

This may be one example but I know of two other families who are the same. However, I have another friend whose Grandparent moved here and learned the lanuguage (around 60 years ago) so not all immigrants don't learn the language.

I believe that if you come to this country to live you should make an effort to learn the language. There's a point where you go to assist people and help them settle / integrate but when it reaches a point where you make it so easy for them to live here with all the things they get at home there becomes less incentive to integrate, causing more divide, resentment from people who were born/moved to and put the effort in to learn the language in the adopted country.

A great example of this was the immigrant post office owner who moved here from the middle east some time ago and now asks that people know basic English before trying to send things via his post office.

[Betty Boop]

They do exist. No question about it.

I have friends whose parents migrated to this country when they were in their 20s and only the father speaks limited English. The mother has made no attempt to speak English and only speaks to her sons / husband in her native tounge.

This may be one example but I know of two other families who are the same. However, I have another friend whose Grandparent moved here and learned the lanuguage (around 60 years ago) so not all immigrants don't learn the language.

I believe that if you come to this country to live you should make an effort to learn the language. There's a point where you go to assist people and help them settle / integrate but when it reaches a point where you make it so easy for them to live here with all the things they get at home there becomes less incentive to integrate, causing more divide, resentment from people who were born/moved to and put the effort in to learn the language in the adopted country.

A great example of this was the immigrant post office owner who moved here from the middle east some time ago and now asks that people know basic English before trying to send things via his post office.
Was this in Edinburgh?

[Woody1985]

Was this in Edinburgh?

No, think it was down in England somewhere. I'll try find the link.


Edit;

Original report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7951778.stm

Here's one link after the original report. It would appear he's been forced out of his own community. Ironic considering he wants people to integrate better.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Postmaster-Says-He-Was-Forced-Out-After-Refusing-To-Serve-Non-English-Speaking-Customers/Article/200903415246554

Also looks like UKIP pounced on him after the original story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7977130.stm

[LiverpoolHibs]

No, think it was down in England somewhere. I'll try find the link.


Edit;

Original report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7951778.stm

Here's one link after the original report. It would appear he's been forced out of his own community. Ironic considering he wants people to integrate better.

He sounds like a pleasant and understanding man, what with him coming from a country where English is very widely spoken and lots of other people coming from countries were English is barely spoken, if at all. What a ****bag.

[Sir David Gray]

And how many British people working and living in the Middle East or Hong Kong can read Arabic or Chinese? Learning a new alphabet is a lot harder than learning a language. My father in law speaks around 6 languages but his English writing and spelling is atrocious.

There's probably not many Brits, who live in non-English speaking countries, who are able to speak the native language of that nation, to any great extent (if at all).

That is wrong but, like I have said on this subject many times before, it is up to those countries to make sure British immigrants learn their language.

My only interest is what happens here.


never in my life have i had anyone but a tourist try to speak to me in anything but English here in Edinburgh. not always perfect English but then my brother in France doesn't speak perfect French and i am not going to harangue him for that.

i think you're talking about imaginary people tbh, ghost people just like yr old avatar.

feel free to tell me of your experiences otherwise though.

I'm certainly not talking about imaginary people. I have a family who live in my street who are originally from Pakistan. There is a grandmother living there, who is probably the first generation of the family to move here, and she cannot speak one word of English, despite the fact that she's most probably lived here for about 30 years.

A couple of years ago, a window company came to their door to take quotes etc. for a job. Her son was late coming home to meet them and therefore she had to go to the door to see the guy but couldn't speak to him. When her son eventually arrived at the house, he explained that his mother couldn't speak any English.

Speaking more generally, there's around 3,500 school pupils in Scotland who cannot speak English at all.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find that shocking.


:top marksTotally agree with you and if that makes me the minority, then so be it. If you want to come and live in this country, then learn the language and respect the natives. If I went to live and work elsewhere I wouldn't expect to be pandered to and would make sure that I tried to fit in and respect that particular country's customs.

I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I'm almost always in the minority on here. You soon get used to it. :wink:


Ok, assuming that people who have been here for years and STILL don't speak English actually exist (and I suspect such people are few and far between, especially compared - statistically - with the horders of ex-pat Brits that move to parts of Spain (in particular) and never learn more than "Hola, dos cervezas por favor") for those coming into Britain from foreign countries, particularly those whose native language doesn't even originate from the same linguisitic bases (e.g. predominantely Latin) as English (e.g Chinese and Urdu speakers), how are they to be expected to successfully integrate, fill out all the required paperwork, start their own business/apply for a job if all this initial paperwork isn't avaliable in their native language??

Whilst they may well be busting a gut to learn English on their own time, that doesn't happen overnight. Without the paperwork avaliable in their own language, they'd be hard pushed to know where to begin. How would you propse they integrate in that situation??

I'm not saying every little bit of official Government paper should be produced in 32 languages, but those most vital to incoming (legal, I hasten to add) immigrants should be IMO :agree:

People who are trying to move here should either already speak English to a reasonable standard or, if they cannot speak English, we should provide them with mandatory English lessons, which will enable them to reach a reasonable standard of English.


No, think it was down in England somewhere. I'll try find the link.


Edit;

Original report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7951778.stm

Here's one link after the original report. It would appear he's been forced out of his own community. Ironic considering he wants people to integrate better.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Postmaster-Says-He-Was-Forced-Out-After-Refusing-To-Serve-Non-English-Speaking-Customers/Article/200903415246554

Also looks like UKIP pounced on him after the original story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7977130.stm

I read that story at the time and I thought "good on him."

He probably got up people's noses but if we had more people with his type of attitude, I think we would have a lot less problems.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Think what you want mate, if you think wanting to stop more immagration is racist then i must be in your eyes, do you think it is great letting whoever into this country to sponge of the goverment, then im happy for you. This is not a nice world mate where all people get on, its a dog eat dog world, face up to it!

Actually, people get on with each other a lot better than you think. It's only when we start making a big deal of our differences, rather than working on them that we get a problem.

I'm sorry to say this, you are a racist, and you are talking out of your anus with a lot of the hatred you are stirring up. I've just had a look at your posting history. You are certainly interested in politics. Out of 30 posts, only three are about football, and that includes your first two posts.

You're not a BNP member deliberately stirring up debate on the sort of issues the BNP like to talk about are you? Looking at your posts, I get the impression you're not unsympathetic to facism.

[Phil D. Rolls]

A great example of this was the immigrant post office owner who moved here from the middle east some time ago and now asks that people know basic English before trying to send things via his post office.

Sorry, you're confusing me with this. I thought you wanted immigrants to learn English. Has this guy not done that, and is happy to follow your philosophy?

I hate to be tedious with this point, but how many ex pats living in the middle east can speak Farsi? How many ex pats living in Spain can speak Spanish. etc etc

[hibsbollah]

This debate always seems to be about what immigrants should be doing; "they should all speak English, they should all adopt our culture" etc etc:blah:

Why don't we ever talk about how we should be behaving as hosts? If we all spent as much energy concentrating on being welcoming and tolerant to guests, we'd probably save a lot of:grr: and:boo hoo:. I speak from experience having lived, worked and studied in various countries abroad, and theres nothing as good as being made to feel welcome by the natives:agree:

[Woody1985]

Sorry, you're confusing me with this. I thought you wanted immigrants to learn English. Has this guy not done that, and is happy to follow your philosophy?

I hate to be tedious with this point, but how many ex pats living in the middle east can speak Farsi? How many ex pats living in Spain can speak Spanish. etc etc

You're correct, you are confused.

The point I was making is that there are immigrants who agree that they should make an effort to learn the language if they want to migrate.

Re your tedious point, I don't know. With the tone of your post you obviously seem to know that the majority of ex-pats don't learn the language of their adopted country. It has been mentioned a lot on here that ex-pats don't learn the language. How does anyone know, it's all based on assumption and absolotely no fact so don't try and hit me with 'How many ex-pats :blah::blah::blah:' when you have no idea. Unless anyone can provide stats on ex-pats across broad regions on their languages then please don't use it as an attempt to point score.

[Woody1985]

This debate always seems to be about what immigrants should be doing; "they should all speak English, they should all adopt our culture" etc etc:blah:

Why don't we ever talk about how we should be behaving as hosts? If we all spent as much energy concentrating on being welcoming and tolerant to guests, we'd probably save a lot of:grr: and:boo hoo:. I speak from experience having lived, worked and studied in various countries abroad, and theres nothing as good as being made to feel welcome by the natives:agree:

I don't think people are disagreeing that people shouldn't be made to feel welcome. However, when we go to the extent that means that barely no effort is required to move here or integrate then it becomes a joke.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You're correct, you are confused.

The point I was making is that there are immigrants who agree that they should make an effort to learn the language if they want to migrate.

Re your tedious point, I don't know. With the tone of your post you obviously seem to know that the majority of ex-pats don't learn the language of their adopted country. It has been mentioned a lot on here that ex-pats don't learn the language. How does anyone know, it's all based on assumption and absolotely no fact so don't try and hit me with 'How many ex-pats :blah::blah::blah:' when you have no idea. Unless anyone can provide stats on ex-pats across broad regions on their languages then please don't use it as an attempt to point score.

Settle petal. I was geniuinely confused, you have clarified it for me, your post seemed to contradict itself that's all.

Of course I don't know how many ex-pats try to learn the language where they go. I suppose the real point is what you said, they should try.

It's not always about scoring points, by the way, it's about giving your opinion, and testing it against what others think. Sometimes things aren't clear, and they need clarified. Otherwise we could be talking at cross purposes.

[hibsbollah]

Unless anyone can provide stats on ex-pats across broad regions

I doubt theres any stats on ex-pats. However;

Brits who speak a second language: 10%
Other EU countries who so so : 56% (28% speak 3 languages)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/britons-abroad-speaking-in-tongues-890074.html

That suggests we're not really in a position to be pointing fingers at others...

[Woody1985]

Settle petal. I was geniuinely confused, you have clarified it for me, your post seemed to contradict itself that's all.

Of course I don't know how many ex-pats try to learn the language where they go. I suppose the real point is what you said, they should try.

It's not always about scoring points, by the way, it's about giving your opinion, and testing it against what others think. Sometimes things aren't clear, and they need clarified. Otherwise we could be talking at cross purposes.

Apologies, I thought you were having a go with the philosophy remark. Then the point that everyone brings up about ex-pats and how we're all hypocrites based on no facts. It seems like a lot of people on here (not meaning you) can't have a discussion about immigration or foreigners without branding people racist or a BNP sympathiser. They articulate it in a way that makes them come across as ferior to others who don't hold their views and it gets on my moobs. :grr:

[Woody1985]

I doubt theres any stats on ex-pats. However;

Brits who speak a second language: 10%
Other EU countries who so so : 56% (28% speak 3 languages)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/britons-abroad-speaking-in-tongues-890074.html

That suggests we're not really in a position to be pointing fingers at others...

That goes back to the earlier points made though. Whether it be education or that fact that English is widely used and understood throughout the world. Also the fact that we're a separate island from the EU means that languages are more likely to cross borders than they are here.

I need to go out just now and see the article is quite long but does it mention how many of those 56% have English as a second language.

[hibsbollah]

That goes back to the earlier points made though. Whether it be education or that fact that English is widely used and understood throughout the world. Also the fact that we're a separate island from the EU means that languages are more likely to cross borders than they are here.

I need to go out just now and see the article is quite long but does it mention how many of those 56% have English as a second language.

I agree that the pre-eminence of English as the language of business, and the number of European borders would explain the EU having a somewhat better figure than us, but 56% vs 10%? Thats a pathetic statistic from a UK point of view.

Like I said, ive lived in an ex-pat community overseas more than once and with the odd exception, no-one bothered learning the local language and didnt change their behaviour/culture at all. You've got to base it on your own experiences i suppose.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Apologies, I thought you were having a go with the philosophy remark. Then the point that everyone brings up about ex-pats and how we're all hypocrites based on no facts. It seems like a lot of people on here (not meaning you) can't have a discussion about immigration or foreigners without branding people racist or a BNP sympathiser. They articulate it in a way that makes them come across as ferior to others who don't hold their views and it gets on my moobs. :grr:

There are a lot of racists who take part in these discussions though - can't say you come across that way btw. Some of the opinions they come out with are ill thought out, and plain wrong a lot of the time.

It's not that long ago that facism was a very real threat to all our lives in this country. There are those that would happily see its introduction, and sometimes hearing their bigoted views spoken out loud can be very uncomfortable, and provoke anger.

I'm in favour of discussing and debating. Some of them though are so entrenched in their dogma, that the only real way to show them up is to expose their ignorance and stupidity.

The problem with so many of their sympathisers is that they are people who need simple answers. They are people who, I imagine, don't spend a lot of time thinking. They are people who would be the first to hold up their hands in horror if the facists ever had their way. And they are people who would take no responsibility for it themselves.

So, to summarise, BNP supporters are ill educated, inarticulate, unimaginative, lazy, cowardly immoral people. I don't have any problem saying that.

[ArabHibee]

Sorry, you're confusing me with this. I thought you wanted immigrants to learn English. Has this guy not done that, and is happy to follow your philosophy?

I hate to be tedious with this point, but how many ex pats living in the middle east can speak Farsi? How many ex pats living in Spain can speak Spanish. etc etc

Can I just throw something else in here about the ex pats? Aren't the majority of them that live in Spain possibly retired? So living a much more relaxed life, probably in parts of Spain that English is possibly a second language and perhaps only mixing with other English speaking ex-pats? My bug bear is people coming over here to live and work who just do not make the effort.

I know this is slightly off topic but an example today when I was in a shop there was a queue waiting to be served at the tills. A group of 3 tried to bypass the queue and walk in front of everyone to the till, someone told them there was a queue and they walked towards the back of the queue talking in a foreign language. 2 minutes later they were back trying to jump the queue this time in front of me. My point here is that the first time could be a genuine mistake in not realising there is a queue, the second time is just plain cheekiness and rambling at me in a foreign language certainly doesn't impress or scare me.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Can I just throw something else in here about the ex pats? Aren't the majority of them that live in Spain possibly retired? So living a much more relaxed life, probably in parts of Spain that English is possibly a second language and perhaps only mixing with other English speaking ex-pats? My bug bear is people coming over here to live and work who just do not make the effort.

I know this is slightly off topic but an example today when I was in a shop there was a queue waiting to be served at the tills. A group of 3 tried to bypass the queue and walk in front of everyone to the till, someone told them there was a queue and they walked towards the back of the queue talking in a foreign language. 2 minutes later they were back trying to jump the queue this time in front of me. My point here is that the first time could be a genuine mistake in not realising there is a queue, the second time is just plain cheekiness and rambling at me in a foreign language certainly doesn't impress or scare me.

It's the wee cultural differences like that which cause the biggest problems IMO. Actually, it's got nothing to do with culture, anyone other than the most stupid, would appreciate that people are waiting their turn, these have just been chancers.

As for those in the South of Spain, I don't think retirement is any different from working in a country. I think it shows some respect if you try to learn the language. Otherwise you're going in taking liberties, expecting others to carry you.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Think what you want mate, if you think wanting to stop more immagration is racist then i must be in your eyes, do you think it is great letting whoever into this country to sponge of the goverment, then im happy for you. This is not a nice world mate where all people get on, its a dog eat dog world, face up to it!

Sorry to see young Hitler has been sent to the Eastern front. Given a bit more rope, I think he was going to out himself anyway.

Still, a wee bit of respect should be due to a respected war veteran such as himself (Afghanistan and Iraq, no less, surprised he didn't claim to have been in Korea as well), who regularly visits West Yorkshire, despite living in Wales.

Just shows you, you can never tell a fascist just by looking at him, eh? Still I'm sure he's picked up a few buddies through PMs.

[Woody1985]

It's the wee cultural differences like that which cause the biggest problems IMO. Actually, it's got nothing to do with culture, anyone other than the most stupid, would appreciate that people are waiting their turn, these have just been chancers.

As for those in the South of Spain, I don't think retirement is any different from working in a country. I think it shows some respect if you try to learn the language. Otherwise you're going in taking liberties, expecting others to carry you.

At the same time do 60/70 something people have the capacity to take on new languages. I reckon it would be pretty difficult.

[ArabHibee]

It's the wee cultural differences like that which cause the biggest problems IMO. Actually, it's got nothing to do with culture, anyone other than the most stupid, would appreciate that people are waiting their turn, these have just been chancers.

As for those in the South of Spain, I don't think retirement is any different from working in a country. I think it shows some respect if you try to learn the language. Otherwise you're going in taking liberties, expecting others to carry you.
Chancers they may be, but there's certainly a lot of them. It's the old "I don't understand you" shrug of shoulders when you speak to them that gets my goat.

[Peevemor]

I was sent this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAf8-oq37yg

I'm unsure about the accuracy of the statistics used (there's at least one I simply don't believe), but it certainly gives food for thought.

[Betty Boop]

Nick Griffin, the party leader, given a two year suspended sentence for inciting racial hatred.

Colin Smith, the South East London organiser, has 17 convictions including armed robbery and stealing cars.

Tony Lecomber, the group development office, convicted of possessing home made hand grenades and attacking a Jewish school teacher for peeling off BNP sticker at an Underground station.

Kevin Scott, the North East organiser, convicted for throwing glass at a black guy, purely for being black.

Robert Bennett, BNP activist, jailed for gang rape. Also served time for armed robbery

Warren Bennett, chief steward, convicted of being a football hooligan and deported from France.

Eddy O'Sullivan, Salford-based BNP candidate in the European elections had set his Facebook status to read "Wogs go home".

The party's officials also circulated urgent emails urging its members that "particular care should be taken when making comments on chat forums and other sites such as Facebook. Do not make the mistake of thinking that comments posted on these sites are secret or hidden."

Jeffrey Marshall, senior organiser for the BNP's London European election campaign, said after David Cameron's son Ivan died: "There is not a great deal of point in keeping these people alive after all."

Garry Aronsson, Griffin's running mate for the European parliament in the North West, posts an avatar on his personal web page featuring a Nazi SS death's head alongside the statement, "Speak English Or Die!". He lists his hobbies as "devising slow and terrible ways of paying back the Guardian-reading ****s who have betrayed the British people into poverty and slavery.

Barry Bennett, MEP candidate for the South West, said: "whatever's good enough for Hitler's good enough for me. God rest his soul."

Dave Strickson, a BNP organiser who helps run its eastern region European election campaign, carried on his personal "Thurrock Patriots" blog a recent report of the fatal stabbing of a teenager in east London beneath the words "Another teen stabbed in Coon Town"

Gary Pudsey, a BNP organiser running the Yorkshire and Humber campaign, was once a regular at National Front meetings. A young Pudsey was also photographed with the late Max Waegg, a Nazi second world war pilot who wrote articles for the white supremacist magazine Spearhead.

Stolen from the Bounce, the BNP's Hall of Shame. :bitchy:

[Phil D. Rolls]

At the same time do 60/70 something people have the capacity to take on new languages. I reckon it would be pretty difficult.

Why are they going to live in a foreign country then?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Chancers they may be, but there's certainly a lot of them. It's the old "I don't understand you" shrug of shoulders when you speak to them that gets my goat.

Yes, that is really annoying. I can't say I've noticed it as that big a problem in Edinburgh, but I have seen it with the tourists. They know fine what the rules are, maybe they just don't understand how important they are to us.

[Woody1985]

Why are they going to live in a foreign country then?

Maybe the weather, cheaper cost of living, more relaxed lifestyle, lower crime rates etc etc. I'm sure there are many more reasons.

What you've also got to remember is that many countries will develop proprties / complexes etc targetted at people retiring and accomodate those older people to their own benefit.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Maybe the weather, cheaper cost of living, more relaxed lifestyle, lower crime rates etc etc. I'm sure there are many more reasons.

What you've also got to remember is that many countries will develop proprties / complexes etc targetted at people retiring and accomodate those older people to their own benefit.

I'm actually thinking of working with the elderly when I qualify. I have seriously considered looking for a job in the South of Spain, as I reckon the next thing will be care homes for ex-pats over there.

[Betty Boop]

I'm actually thinking of working with the elderly when I qualify. I have seriously considered looking for a job in the South of Spain, as I reckon the next thing will be care homes for ex-pats over there.
:agree: http://www.treatmentinspain.com/expatriate/care-services/

[Woody1985]

I'm actually thinking of working with the elderly when I qualify. I have seriously considered looking for a job in the South of Spain, as I reckon the next thing will be care homes for ex-pats over there.

Why would you want to go and work with a bunch of ex-pats who may not have been interested in learning the local language due to their lazyness :devil:

[ArabHibee]

Why would you want to go and work with a bunch of ex-pats who may not have been interested in learning the local language due to their lazyness :devil:

:faf::top marksGood yin!!

[PeeJay]

It's the wee cultural differences like that which cause the biggest problems IMO. Actually, it's got nothing to do with culture, anyone other than the most stupid, would appreciate that people are waiting their turn, these have just been chancers.


That may apply to some but I'm quite certain it doesn't apply here in Germany: they're all - in your term - 'chancers': no-one queues for anything here. No-one seems to ever stand in a 'line', it's more a sort of 'crowding around' the counter or bus stop or whatever - so you have to know exactly when you're turn is and be on the ball. I've been here so long but can't get my 'queing instinct' out of me, so I'm quite often tricked out of my turn by old women and small children! :boo hoo:You've no idea how tough it is for us ex-pats away from home sometimes! So, maybe foreigners in the UK have similar problems getting their cultural traits out of the system???

(General)
As an ex-pat though, I have learnt the language of the country I came to so long ago, so it is possible for ex-pats, and I knew many Brits over here who speak the lingo - so there!:rolleyes:

Last point: most children, here learn English, and many adults study it too, because without it they are sunk in today's modern world - English is a must for a export-base economony like Germany's. Wherever they are in the world they can almost always find business partners or someone who speaks English - it is after all, the lingua franca!
Anyone learning a foreign language in the UK however, has to do it for other reasons, surely? Love of a particular country, culture: and the motoivation to do so is less marked I would feel?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Why would you want to go and work with a bunch of ex-pats who may not have been interested in learning the local language due to their lazyness :devil:

It's not about judging people, it's about helping them make the most of life. :angelic:

Besides, by the time I get to them, most of them won't understand me, whatever language I speak. :rolleyes:

[BravestHibs]

That may apply to some but I'm quite certain it doesn't apply here in Germany: they're all - in your term - 'chancers': no-one queues for anything here. No-one seems to ever stand in a 'line', it's more a sort of 'crowding around' the counter or bus stop or whatever - so you have to know exactly when you're turn is and be on the ball. I've been here so long but can't get my 'queing instinct' out of me, so I'm quite often tricked out of my turn by old women and small children! :boo hoo:You've no idea how tough it is for us ex-pats away from home sometimes! So, maybe foreigners in the UK have similar problems getting their cultural traits out of the system???

(General)
As an ex-pat though, I have learnt the language of the country I came to so long ago, so it is possible for ex-pats, and I knew many Brits over here who speak the lingo - so there!:rolleyes:

Last point: most children, here learn English, and many adults study it too, because without it they are sunk in today's modern world - English is a must for a export-base economony like Germany's. Wherever they are in the world they can almost always find business partners or someone who speaks English - it is after all, the lingua franca!
Anyone learning a foreign language in the UK however, has to do it for other reasons, surely? Love of a particular country, culture: and the motoivation to do so is less marked I would feel?

The UK is renowned as a haven for qeueing and qeuers(I'm still not sure how to spell it) in other european countries. There's pretty much no where else in the world where standing in a spot longer than someone else guarantees you safe passage to service. The only other place I've ever been where qeueing is a noticeable part of every day life has been Hungary where, if anything they stand in line more rigurously than the UK. Possibly a throwback to their communist past. Don't quote me on that though it's merely speculation. FWIW there is nothing that irritates me more than standing in a snaking line for something I don't even really want to do. The post office springs to mind.

[BravestHibs]

Chancers they may be, but there's certainly a lot of them. It's the old "I don't understand you" shrug of shoulders when you speak to them that gets my goat.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Why is it only foreigners that irritate you to such an extent? In my experience it's the locals in Edinburgh who are infinitely ruder than any immigrant/foreigner that I've ever encountered. From your posts both on this topic and others I reckon I would much rather bump into and have a drink with a non-educated, swahili speaking, failed asylum seeking dole bludger than a smug, xenophobic, narrow minded, self righteous, right wing daily mail reader who believes that the place they were born entitles them to look down their noses at people merely because they were unfortunate enough not to be born in this country.

At least I might have something in common with the Swahili speaker.

[ArabHibee]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Why is it only foreigners that irritate you to such an extent? In my experience it's the locals in Edinburgh who are infinitely ruder than any immigrant/foreigner that I've ever encountered. From your posts both on this topic and others I reckon I would much rather bump into and have a drink with a non-educated, swahili speaking, failed asylum seeking dole bludger than a smug, xenophobic, narrow minded, self righteous, right wing daily mail reader who believes that the place they were born entitles them to look down their noses at people merely because they were unfortunate enough not to be born in this country.

At least I might have something in common with the Swahili speaker.
:faf:
Because it's normally foreigners that do it. I agree that people from this country may attempt to jump a queue but once told, they don't generally try it again, which happened in the example I gave on Saturday.

Please also enjoy your drink with your Swahili friend, I'd rather stick a poker in my eye than go out with you.

And it's queue, not qeueu - didn't you get taught English at school? Sheesh, we have enough problems with the "incomers" not learning the lingo without the natives starting!:duck:

[BravestHibs]

:faf:
Because it's normally foreigners that do it. I agree that people from this country may attempt to jump a queue but once told, they don't generally try it again, which happened in the example I gave on Saturday.

Please also enjoy your drink with your Swahili friend, I'd rather stick a poker in my eye than go out with you.

And it's queue, not qeueu - didn't you get taught English at school? :duck:

I would love to see you stick a poker in your own eye. That would be quality.

P.S I'm way out of your league anyway.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The UK is renowned as a haven for qeueing and qeuers(I'm still not sure how to spell it) in other european countries. There's pretty much no where else in the world where standing in a spot longer than someone else guarantees you safe passage to service. The only other place I've ever been where qeueing is a noticeable part of every day life has been Hungary where, if anything they stand in line more rigurously than the UK. Possibly a throwback to their communist past. Don't quote me on that though it's merely speculation. FWIW there is nothing that irritates me more than standing in a snaking line for something I don't even really want to do. The post office springs to mind.

The funny thing is that along with some other great British traditions, it came about during the second world war. Before that people didn't queue for anything, but rationing put that in its place.

I think the ability to queue is one of the things that set the British apart from others.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I would love to see you stick a poker in your own eye. That would be quality.

I'll be keeping an eye out for you pair.

[ArabHibee]

I would love to see you stick a poker in your own eye. That would be quality.

P.S I'm way out of your league anyway.

Well seeing as you wouldn't meet up with me the last time I PM'd you coz you were too scared then I'll guess you will never see me stick a poker in my eye.

:love ya!::love ya!::love ya!::love ya!:
:tee hee:

[ArabHibee]

I'll be keeping an eye out for you pair.

I think he's secretly in love with me but won't admit it!
:love ya!:

[BravestHibs]

I think he's secretly in love with me but won't admit it!
:love ya!:

You're grotesque.

[ArabHibee]

You're grotesque.

:thumbsup::applause:
Well done for getting your "u" and "e" round the right way after the "q"!

[BravestHibs]

Well seeing as you wouldn't meet up with me the last time I PM'd you coz you were too scared then I'll guess you will never see me stick a poker in my eye.

:love ya!::love ya!::love ya!::love ya!:
:tee hee:

Yeah, I should have travelled up from sheffield to have a conversation about race with a 36 year old womanchild. That would certainly have been worth my while. I think there are probably four year olds that have surpassed your level of patter.

[Jonnyboy]

:thumbsup::applause:
Well done for getting your "u" and "e" round the right way after the "q"!


Yeah, I should have travelled up from sheffield to have a conversation about race with a 36 year old womanchild. That would certainly have been worth my while. I think there are probably four year olds that have surpassed your level of patter.

I think you both need to cool it folks. What I'm beginning to see here is getting mightily close to the sort of personal abuse that leads to repercussions.

Chill please :agree: