Private Steven Green

[Betty Boop]

What an unbelievable act of depravity, winning hearts and minds in Iraq. :bitchy:
http://www.expose-the-war-profiteers.org/archive/media/2009-2/20090509.htm

[Pretty Boy]

What an unbelievable act of depravity, winning hearts and minds in Iraq. :bitchy:
http://www.expose-the-war-profiteers.org/archive/media/2009-2/20090509.htm

Shocking. So many of the soldiers do a great job but a very small minority seem to think they have the right to act like animals. Thankfully the British soldiers seem far more capable of behaving like human beings.

[hughio]

Shocking. So many of the soldiers do a great job but a very small minority seem to think they have the right to act like animals. Thankfully the British soldiers seem far more capable of behaving like human beings.

animals dont behave like that

[Sylar]

Without this sounding like a defense (as it most certainly isn't), it must be a very emotive position for these young soldiers to find themselves in. They are attacked by Iraqi militants on a daily basis, often watching close friends and colleagues destroyed by mortar attacks, suicide bombings or gun-fights.

The prolonged exposure to such an environment must really alter their perceptions of reality and damage their psyche to an extent we can't possibly fathom. If the attacks on the US soldiers are as frequent in that area as media reports seem to suggest, then these soldiers must have felt a seriously unhealthy amount of rage and need for revenge. The article seems to further suggest this, in saying he was honourably discharged prior to the investigation for a personality disorder.

Having said that, the act they have committed (and one of them being convicted for) is absolutely barbaric, and he will get what's coming to him. I just hope all aspects of his psychological status as a result of the environment are considered before condemning him to death. Sadly, if this threatens tensions between Washington and Iraq, the end result is probably already pre-determined.

Your only thoughts in this story can really go towards both families - the family of the young girl (extended) and the family of the young soldier, who will no doubt be utterly ashamed and be stuck dealing with this the rest of their days.

[(((Fergus)))]

These people have been trained to kill and destroy on behalf of their governments. When they do a bit of extra work on their own account, they get slaughtered for it. Quite right too, but how is what this guy done any different from any of the official killing and robbing? Our good friends the Red Army did exactly the same thing when they "liberated" Berlin. The RAF burned alive young and old in the streets and houses of Dresden.

Why are they heroes yet this guy is depraved? :confused:

[Betty Boop]

These people have been trained to kill and destroy on behalf of their governments. When they do a bit of extra work on their own account, they get slaughtered for it. Quite right too, but how is what this guy done any different from any of the official killing and robbing? Our good friends the Red Army did exactly the same thing when they "liberated" Berlin. The RAF burned alive young and old in the streets and houses of Dresden.

Why are they heroes yet this guy is depraved? :confused:

I'd say the gang rape of a 14 year old, then putting a pillow over her head and shooting her three times, then torching her body, amounts to more "than a bit of extra work". THE Americans are supposed to be in Iraq to spread Democracy and win hearts and minds. Aye right! :bitchy:

[(((Fergus)))]

I'd say the gang rape of a 14 year old, then putting a pillow over her head and shooting her three times, then torching her body, amounts to more "than a bit of extra work". THE Americans are supposed to be in Iraq to spread Democracy and win hearts and minds. Aye right! :bitchy:

The guy is a specialist in death and destruction. So he did a bit of "moonlighting" on the company's time. The only difference between him and his employer is that there is no (human) agency higher than his employer to try them and sentence them to death.

[steakbake]

It's a war crime, surely. Serb soldiers went to the Hague for this kind of thing in Bosnia, why is a US soldier being tried by a civilian court in the US?

[sadtom]

Without this sounding like a defense (as it most certainly isn't), it must be a very emotive position for these young soldiers to find themselves in. They are attacked by Iraqi militants on a daily basis, often watching close friends and colleagues destroyed by mortar attacks, suicide bombings or gun-fights.

The prolonged exposure to such an environment must really alter their perceptions of reality and damage their psyche to an extent we can't possibly fathom. If the attacks on the US soldiers are as frequent in that area as media reports seem to suggest, then these soldiers must have felt a seriously unhealthy amount of rage and need for revenge. The article seems to further suggest this, in saying he was honourably discharged prior to the investigation for a personality disorder.

Having said that, the act they have committed (and one of them being convicted for) is absolutely barbaric, and he will get what's coming to him. I just hope all aspects of his psychological status as a result of the environment are considered before condemning him to death. Sadly, if this threatens tensions between Washington and Iraq, the end result is probably already pre-determined.

Your only thoughts in this story can really go towards both families - the family of the young girl (extended) and the family of the young soldier, who will no doubt be utterly ashamed and be stuck dealing with this the rest of their days.

Wonder what its like for the Iraqi people having to watch occupying soldiers in their town villages and cities after they had to watch a disproportionately far higher number of civilians who will have been their brothers/sisters/mums/dads/friends and neighbours being slaughtered indiscriminately by missiles and bombs in air raids and then by said occupying ground troops.
I know you said you are not defending them but you obviously want his particular situation taken into account. Well in turn i'm not defending the iraqi insurgents I just want their particular 'psychological status' taken into account. Sauce for the goose and all that.

[(((Fergus)))]

Fascinating article here by a reporter for Stars and Stripes who met and talked with Green while embedded with his unit in Iraq...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/28/AR2006072801492.html

[Sylar]

Wonder what its like for the Iraqi people having to watch occupying soldiers in their town villages and cities after they had to watch a disproportionately far higher number of civilians who will have been their brothers/sisters/mums/dads/friends and neighbours being slaughtered indiscriminately by missiles and bombs in air raids and then by said occupying ground troops.
I know you said you are not defending them but you obviously want his particular situation taken into account. Well in turn i'm not defending the iraqi insurgents I just want their particular 'psychological status' taken into account. Sauce for the goose and all that.

Agree 100% :agree:

[--------]

Without this sounding like a defense (as it most certainly isn't), it must be a very emotive position for these young soldiers to find themselves in. They are attacked by Iraqi militants on a daily basis, often watching close friends and colleagues destroyed by mortar attacks, suicide bombings or gun-fights.

The prolonged exposure to such an environment must really alter their perceptions of reality and damage their psyche to an extent we can't possibly fathom. If the attacks on the US soldiers are as frequent in that area as media reports seem to suggest, then these soldiers must have felt a seriously unhealthy amount of rage and need for revenge. The article seems to further suggest this, in saying he was honourably discharged prior to the investigation for a personality disorder.

Having said that, the act they have committed (and one of them being convicted for) is absolutely barbaric, and he will get what's coming to him. I just hope all aspects of his psychological status as a result of the environment are considered before condemning him to death. Sadly, if this threatens tensions between Washington and Iraq, the end result is probably already pre-determined.

Your only thoughts in this story can really go towards both families - the family of the young girl (extended) and the family of the young soldier, who will no doubt be utterly ashamed and be stuck dealing with this the rest of their days.


I find it slightly amusing that the Iraqi civilians fighting against the occupying troops of the US and British Armies are always either "militants" or "insurgents" or "extremists". If this were the Second World War in France or the Low Countries, they'd be "the Resistance", and we'd be looking to give them medals after the war. And the present Iraqi governemnt would be "Quislings" - collaborating with the occupying invaders. So much depends on one's point of view....

We and our US allies are in Iraq illegally. Our declared war aim - to roust out all those terrible WMD's - was so much horse-feathers. The US and British "intelligence" serivces were either incompetent or lying in their published assessments of the situation pre-invasion. Bush and Blair both told lies to their respective legislatures to gain the agreement of those legislatures to the invasion. they will never be held to account ofr this. Tens - no, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died as a result of this incompetence/dishonesty (delete as appropriate).

Just because Dubya got up on his hind legs on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier and declared the war over didn't actually make it so. It's been obvious since he did so that quite a number of Iraqis (quite understandably) radically disagree with him.

The war was never about WMD's, nor about "bringing democracy to the Iraqis". It was about OIL, and it was about the US and UK establishing a military presence in Mesopotamia, south of the Caucasus, between the newly-independent former Soviet republics of Central Asia and the Indian sub-continent. Iraq and Afghanistan are also good places to keep an eye on the Chinese in Tibet as well. In other words, it was just another move in what Kipling called "The Great Game" - control Central Asia, and you control the oilfields of the Middle East and the approaches to India - probably the largest emerging market available to western capitalism in the world today.

The grunts involved in this atrocity are nothing much more than your standard uniformed bullies with guns taking advantage of people who can't fight back.

[--------]

It's a war crime, surely. Serb soldiers went to the Hague for this kind of thing in Bosnia, why is a US soldier being tried by a civilian court in the US?



The US refused to sign up for that.

Our troops could be tried at The Hague for war crimes in Iraq, but not the Yanquis.

[Betty Boop]

The US refused to sign up for that.

Our troops could be tried at The Hague for war crimes in Iraq, but not the Yanquis.
How convenient! :bitchy:

[Hibs Class]

These people have been trained to kill and destroy on behalf of their governments. When they do a bit of extra work on their own account, they get slaughtered for it. Quite right too, but how is what this guy done any different from any of the official killing and robbing? Our good friends the Red Army did exactly the same thing when they "liberated" Berlin. The RAF burned alive young and old in the streets and houses of Dresden.

Why are they heroes yet this guy is depraved? :confused:

To equate the heroic bravery of Bomber Command in WWII with modern day criminal activity, demonstrates extreme ignorance and will be offensive to a great many people.

[--------]

How convenient! :bitchy:


To be fair to the Yanquis, they have actually prosecuted a number of their soldiers for criminal acts committed in Iraq - this guy, the people from Abu Ghraib - and those found guilty have gone to jail on long tariffs, IIRC.

The British Army can be very good at appearing to do something about crimes against civilians, but actually sweeping them well under the carpet until everyone's forgotten about them.

(Ask some of the folks in NI who got on the wrong side of some of our guys during the Troubles.)

Stuff like this always happens during military occupations, just as the civilian population always tries it on against the occupying troops. My father was in Hamburg 1945-47 with the BAO and some of the stories he had (he didn't tell me much, but what he did tell me...) were lively to say the least.

the line between what constitutes a legitimate response to provocation and criminal behaviour is, IMO, a very fine one.

The Red Army's behaviour in Eastern Germany in 1944-5 was appalling - but what would I have been likely to do when I arrived in Germany after fighting my way across my homeland, finding villages burned out, civilian mass graves all over the place, hearing the atrocity stories from the liberated populations? My people raped and murdered? By other people who considered me little better than an animal?

It WAS a war crime, unjustifiable, but in my view understandable, especially when one considers the attitude of the Army command and the NKVD and the way they encouraged the atrocities. (Would I have taken the chance of the Gulag for the sake of a bunch of Nazis, I ask myself? And answer, probably not.)

As for Dresden, we've been round that road before, and my opinion's the same as it was the last time. A horrendous event, massive loss of life (though not nearly as massive as David Irvine and his East German neo-Nazi friends would have us believe) but in the context of 1945 and the Geneva Conventions of the day, not a war crime. (Bearing in mind that the context of the day had been well-defined by the Nazi regime in Poland, in France and the Low Countries, in the Soviet Union, in the Balkans....)

[Betty Boop]

To be fair to the Yanquis, they have actually prosecuted a number of their soldiers for criminal acts committed in Iraq - this guy, the people from Abu Ghraib - and those found guilty have gone to jail on long tariffs, IIRC.

The British Army can be very good at appearing to do something about crimes against civilians, but actually sweeping them well under the carpet until everyone's forgotten about them.

(Ask some of the folks in NI who got on the wrong side of some of our guys during the Troubles.)

Stuff like this always happens during military occupations, just as the civilian population always tries it on against the occupying troops. My father was in Hamburg 1945-47 with the BAO and some of the stories he had (he didn't tell me much, but what he did tell me...) were lively to say the least.

the line between what constitutes a legitimate response to provocation and criminal behaviour is, IMO, a very fine one.

The Red Army's behaviour in Eastern Germany in 1944-5 was appalling - but what would I have been likely to do when I arrived in Germany after fighting my way across my homeland, finding villages burned out, civilian mass graves all over the place, hearing the atrocity stories from the liberated populations? My people raped and murdered? By other people who considered me little better than an animal?

It WAS a war crime, unjustifiable, but in my view understandable, especially when one considers the attitude of the Army command and the NKVD and the way they encouraged the atrocities. (Would I have taken the chance of the Gulag for the sake of a bunch of Nazis, I ask myself? And answer, probably not.)

As for Dresden, we've been round that road before, and my opinion's the same as it was the last time. A horrendous event, massive loss of life (though not nearly as massive as David Irvine and his East German neo-Nazi friends would have us believe) but in the context of 1945 and the Geneva Conventions of the day, not a war crime. (Bearing in mind that the context of the day had been well-defined by the Nazi regime in Poland, in France and the Low Countries, in the Soviet Union, in the Balkans....)
Talking of Abu Ghraib Doddie........http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/05/13/national/w093422D21.DTL

[--------]

Talking of Abu Ghraib Doddie........http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/05/13/national/w093422D21.DTL


Now THERE's a thing.... :hmmm:

[(((Fergus)))]

To equate the heroic bravery of Bomber Command in WWII with modern day criminal activity, demonstrates extreme ignorance and will be offensive to a great many people.

It may be offensive to people who believe that dropping incendiaries on civilians is heroic bravery. If you are the one who is shot, bombed and/or burnt to death, I dare say you couldn't give a **** whether it was done by criminals or heroes.

[Sylar]

I find it slightly amusing that the Iraqi civilians fighting against the occupying troops of the US and British Armies are always either "militants" or "insurgents" or "extremists". If this were the Second World War in France or the Low Countries, they'd be "the Resistance", and we'd be looking to give them medals after the war. And the present Iraqi governemnt would be "Quislings" - collaborating with the occupying invaders. So much depends on one's point of view....

We and our US allies are in Iraq illegally. Our declared war aim - to roust out all those terrible WMD's - was so much horse-feathers. The US and British "intelligence" serivces were either incompetent or lying in their published assessments of the situation pre-invasion. Bush and Blair both told lies to their respective legislatures to gain the agreement of those legislatures to the invasion. they will never be held to account ofr this. Tens - no, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died as a result of this incompetence/dishonesty (delete as appropriate).

Just because Dubya got up on his hind legs on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier and declared the war over didn't actually make it so. It's been obvious since he did so that quite a number of Iraqis (quite understandably) radically disagree with him.

The war was never about WMD's, nor about "bringing democracy to the Iraqis". It was about OIL, and it was about the US and UK establishing a military presence in Mesopotamia, south of the Caucasus, between the newly-independent former Soviet republics of Central Asia and the Indian sub-continent. Iraq and Afghanistan are also good places to keep an eye on the Chinese in Tibet as well. In other words, it was just another move in what Kipling called "The Great Game" - control Central Asia, and you control the oilfields of the Middle East and the approaches to India - probably the largest emerging market available to western capitalism in the world today.

The grunts involved in this atrocity are nothing much more than your standard uniformed bullies with guns taking advantage of people who can't fight back.

I suppose they are "resistance" - I tend to use militants, as that is my idea (or definition) of civilian militia (rightly or wrongly).

I have no arguments with the illegalities of our presence in Iraq.

[--------]

I suppose they are "resistance" - I tend to use militants, as that is my idea (or definition) of civilian militia (rightly or wrongly).

I have no arguments with the illegalities of our presence in Iraq.


Sorry - I shouldn't have given the impression that I was specifically getting after your use of the word "militant" - this is something I've been thinking of ever since the war broke way back in what - 2003?

I'm also amused at the tendency of all armies to cry "foul" when the civilian populations of occupied territories take exception to the presence of foreign troops amonmg them, and seek to do something about it. "Not fair," they say; "they're not wearing uniforms. We can't see them coming."

Totally ignoring the fact that the process of occupation and conquest has almost certainly cost the lives of tens or even hundreds of thousands of non-combatant civilians of both sexes and all ages.

[Tazio]

Sorry - I shouldn't have given the impression that I was specifically getting after your use of the word "militant" - this is something I've been thinking of ever since the war broke way back in what - 2003?

I'm also amused at the tendency of all armies to cry "foul" when the civilian populations of occupied territories take exception to the presence of foreign troops amonmg them, and seek to do something about it. "Not fair," they say; "they're not wearing uniforms. We can't see them coming."

Totally ignoring the fact that the process of occupation and conquest has almost certainly cost the lives of tens or even hundreds of thousands of non-combatant civilians of both sexes and all ages.

Robert Fisk makes a great play on the use of the word "terrorist" and it's selective use.

[--------]

Robert Fisk makes a great play on the use of the word "terrorist" and it's selective use.


And during the Second World War the British press were under strict instructions always to refer to OUR "U-boats" as "submarines" and German "submarines" as "U-boats".

Even though they were doing EXACTLY the same job, only for opposite sides in the War.....

[J-C]

What this monster and his buddies did is the same as the extreme terrorists do every day in Iraq and Afghanistan. They should be treated the same as any othere war criminal, if the crimes where commited in Iraq then send him over there and let him be executed aka Saddam Hussain.

[--------]

What this mondter and his buddies did is the same as the extreme terrorists do every day in Iraq and Afghanistan. They should be treated the same as any othere war criminal, if the crimes where commited in Iraq then send him over there and let him be executed aka Saddam Hussain.


He's not a monster.

He's a man.

[J-C]

He's not a monster.

He's a man.


He's a montrously bad man then, either way get rid of **** like him and his cronies, no good to the human race whatsoever.

[Phil D. Rolls]

We choose soldiers for their fighting ability, we teach them to kill, we subject them to stress beyond most people's imagination, and then we are surprised when one acts with barbarity.

[--------]

He's a montrously bad man then, either way get rid of **** like him and his cronies, no good to the human race whatsoever.


Unfortunately he and they are part of the human race, regardless of what they've done.

Part of being human is the capacity to inflict cruelty and violence on other human beings.

It's in all of us, I'd say.

[Sylar]

We choose soldiers for their fighting ability, we teach them to kill, we subject them to stress beyond most people's imagination, and then we are surprised when one acts with barbarity.

Someone I was speaking to about this earlier used an apt comparison.

It's like locking a wild tiger in a cage and subjecting it to abuse by rattling its cage and taunting it, only to be surprised when it goes after the first person it sees, upon its release, even if that person is not necessarily the person who antagonised it.

It's a release of built up aggression and rage, which reaches such a height that action needs taken to release it, regardless to how morally deplorable said act is.


The whole thing smarts of the American soldiers' behaviour during Vietnam, towards the Vietcong.

[Tazio]

We choose soldiers for their fighting ability, we teach them to kill, we subject them to stress beyond most people's imagination, and then we are surprised when one acts with barbarity.

I think it's more a matter of the modern training and attitude of the American military. They adore the macho nonsense of training, for reference see any American made military film that involves boot camp. Especially GI Jane (:wink:)

Otherwise there would have been anarchy and mayhem on the streets after major conflicts like the world wars. The Americans revel in gung ho crap like painting messages on missiles etc. There is a mentality about their military that is based more on hate than the British model. They seem to see Arabs as somehow less than them, almost subhuman compared to westerners.

[Betty Boop]

I think it's more a matter of the modern training and attitude of the American military. They adore the macho nonsense of training, for reference see any American made military film that involves boot camp. Especially GI Jane (:wink:)

Otherwise there would have been anarchy and mayhem on the streets after major conflicts like the world wars. The Americans revel in gung ho crap like painting messages on missiles etc. There is a mentality about their military that is based more on hate than the British model. They seem to see Arabs as somehow less than them, almost subhuman compared to westerners.
:agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think it's more a matter of the modern training and attitude of the American military. They adore the macho nonsense of training, for reference see any American made military film that involves boot camp. Especially GI Jane (:wink:)

Otherwise there would have been anarchy and mayhem on the streets after major conflicts like the world wars. The Americans revel in gung ho crap like painting messages on missiles etc. There is a mentality about their military that is based more on hate than the British model. They seem to see Arabs as somehow less than them, almost subhuman compared to westerners.

Hear what you're saying about the Americans, but Britain doesn't do too well at helping soldiers back to normality. We've got a pretty shocking attitude towards Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, for example.

[--------]

Hear what you're saying about the Americans, but Britain doesn't do too well at helping soldiers back to normality. We've got a pretty shocking attitude towards Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, for example.


I think the British Army does have a more responsible attitude to training the men to behave well towards prisoners and civilians on occupied areas like Southern Iraq. I have a buddy who's a TA Chaplain, and a lot of his work is sitting down with the guys working through what is and what isn't acceptable behaviourn - much of what he covers is a direct result of incidents in NI over the past 40 years that have reflected badly on the Army and which in the end made the Army's job much harder.

As for ex-servicemen, there's been a degree of betterment in the Armed Forces' treatment of them post-discharge, but there's a long way to go and too much is left to charities. I believe that somewhere around 20-25% of ex-soldiers find themselves in trouble with the law - many land in prison, many develop serious drug/alcohol problems, many suffer the breakdown and break-up of their families....

[Sylar]

If anyone hasn't seen it yet, it's perhaps worth watching the Horizon programme which was on a few nights ago with Michael Portillo, entitled "How Violent are You?".

It gives a good insight as to what triggers this sort of behaviour from a biochemical and psychological perspective.

Aware it's a slight tangent from this particular story, but it perhaps gives an insight into soldier abuse of victims etc.

It's available on the BBC Iplayer, and you'll find it if you type "How Violent Are You" into the search box!

[--------]

If anyone hasn't seen it yet, it's perhaps worth watching the Horizon programme which was on a few nights ago with Michael Portillo, entitled "How Violent are You?".

It gives a good insight as to what triggers this sort of behaviour from a biochemical and psychological perspective.

Aware it's a slight tangent from this particular story, but it perhaps gives an insight into soldier abuse of victims etc.

It's available on the BBC Iplayer, and you'll find it if you type "How Violent Are You" into the search box!


Just watched it. The last 10-15 minutes were most instructive.

Most ordinary people are prepared to obey instructions and inflict severe and potentially lethal pain on another human being - and justify it to themselves and others afterwards.

Some of them don't even seem to realise that what they've just done is morally questionable at all.

I THINK I would have told the 'professor' where to stick his electrodes, but only because I'd heard of the experiment before seeing the program, and having done 7 years of University, I've not a lot of respect for professors.

Frame the choice differently, and I'm not so sure....

In The Anatomy of the SS State (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anatomy-Buchheim-Broszat-Jacobsen-Krausnick/dp/B001159RDE/ref=sr_1_1/275-3691059-5555736?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242399223&sr=1-1) by Hans Buchheim, Martin Broszat and Hans-Adolf Jacobsen there is the account of an "experiment" carried out by an SS guard in (I think) Auschwitz.

Two Polish prisoners were ordered to dig a grave. A Jewish prisoner was ordered into the grave. The Poles were then ordered to bury the Jewish prisoner alive, or be shot. They refused. The Jewish prisoner was ordered out of the grave, and the Poles were told to lie down in it. The Jewish prisoner was then ordered to bury the Poles alive, or be shot. He obeyed. He was then ordered to dig the Polish prisoners up, and get back into the grave. This time the Polish prisoners obeyed when the guard told them to fill in the grave.

The story isn't about whether Polish prisoners or Jewish prisoners were more likely to collaborate with the Nazis. It's about how the Nazis, and the SS in particular, used the most extreme coercive pressure to make their victims accomplices in mass murder.

[Betty Boop]

Just watched it. The last 10-15 minutes were most instructive.

Most ordinary people are prepared to obey instructions and inflict severe and potentially lethal pain on another human being - and justify it to themselves and others afterwards.

Some of them don't even seem to realise that what they've just done is morally questionable at all.

I THINK I would have told the 'professor' where to stick his electrodes, but only because I'd heard of the experiment before seeing the program, and having done 7 years of University, I've not a lot of respect for professors.

Frame the choice differently, and I'm not so sure....

In The Anatomy of the SS State (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anatomy-Buchheim-Broszat-Jacobsen-Krausnick/dp/B001159RDE/ref=sr_1_1/275-3691059-5555736?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242399223&sr=1-1) by Hans Buchheim, Martin Broszat and Hans-Adolf Jacobsen there is the account of an "experiment" carried out by an SS guard in (I think) Auschwitz.

Two Polish prisoners were ordered to dig a grave. A Jewish prisoner was ordered into the grave. The Poles were then ordered to bury the Jewish prisoner alive, or be shot. They refused. The Jewish prisoner was ordered out of the grave, and the Poles were told to lie down in it. The Jewish prisoner was then ordered to bury the Poles alive, or be shot. He obeyed. He was then ordered to dig the Polish prisoners up, and get back into the grave. This time the Polish prisoners obeyed when the guard told them to fill in the grave.

The story isn't about whether Polish prisoners or Jewish prisoners were more likely to collaborate with the Nazis. It's about how the Nazis, and the SS in particular, used the most extreme coercive pressure to make their victims accomplices in mass murder.
Was that the Milgram Experiment? :greengrin

[--------]

Was that the Milgram Experiment? :greengrin


Yup. :agree:

They repeated it for Portillo's program - I don't know where they found tewelve people who hadn't heard of Milgram, but they did - and duplicated the results almost exactly.

I found myself wondering how any of the 9 who went on right to the limit regardless would have responded if an assistant had come in at the end looking distraught to announce, "Erm, there's been a horrible accident - he's dead."

One woman (I think it was the biology student) actually confirmed with the 'professor': "He has signed the form, hasn't he?"

i wonder what she thinks of her behaviour now? :cool2:

[Betty Boop]

Another American Soldier shoots dead five of his colleagues after attending a "stress" clinic. http://www.livenews.com.au/news/world/us-soldier-charged-with-murder-of-five-comrades-in-iraq/2009/5/13/206336

[--------]

Another American Soldier shoots dead five of his colleagues after attending a "stress" clinic. http://www.livenews.com.au/news/world/us-soldier-charged-with-murder-of-five-comrades-in-iraq/2009/5/13/206336



Well, I think that at the very least they should give him his money back.... :devil:

That story baffles me.

They're sufficiently concerned about his mental health to ban him from carrying fire-arms; they take away his weapon, but they leave him in Iraq, on a base where everyone else is carrying a weapon - they assume he won't have the wit to steal one?

"Such shooting incidents have not been all that common in Iraq but nearly a fifth of American soldiers deployed there suffer Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), according to the US military's battlemind.army.mil website.

In the last such reported incident, US media widely reported that Sergeant Joseph Bozicevich, 39, had allegedly shot dead two of his superiors at a base south of Baghdad last September 14.

The dead men were named as staff sergeant Darris Dawson, 24, and sergeant Wesley Durbin, 26, and the reports said Bozicevich could not bear being berated by them."

"Not been all that common in Iraq"? What exactly does the US Army consider to be acceptable in terms of their soldiers shooting one another - IN CAMP?

[J-C]

My old man ( god rest his sole ) told me that during the war they said...
when the British shoot their guns, the Germans ducked. When the Germans shoot their guns, the British ducked but when the Yanks shoot their guns everybody ducked. Enough said eh!

[Betty Boop]

Yup. :agree:

They repeated it for Portillo's program - I don't know where they found tewelve people who hadn't heard of Milgram, but they did - and duplicated the results almost exactly.

I found myself wondering how any of the 9 who went on right to the limit regardless would have responded if an assistant had come in at the end looking distraught to announce, "Erm, there's been a horrible accident - he's dead."

One woman (I think it was the biology student) actually confirmed with the 'professor': "He has signed the form, hasn't he?"

i wonder what she thinks of her behaviour now? :cool2:
I know you are not keen on Psychology or Sociology :greengrin, but I have just had an exam on Obedience, and used the Milgram experiment as my case study.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I know you are not keen on Psychology or Sociology :greengrin, but I have just had an exam on Obedience, and used the Milgram experiment as my case study.

An exam on Obedience - what exactly is your chosen career path? :shocked:

[Betty Boop]

An exam on Obedience - what exactly is your chosen career path? :shocked: :tsk tsk: :greengrin

[--------]

I know you are not keen on Psychology or Sociology :greengrin, but I have just had an exam on Obedience, and used the Milgram experiment as my case study.


I had a VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with a Social Psychologist when I was young, and I've never quite got over it.

She tried to make me into a School Teacher. :boo hoo:


The Milgram experiment - and the other one where they split a group of college students into guards and prisoners, which ended with the guards bullying and abusing the prisoners horrendously - these are controlled experiments which shed a great deal of light on just how human beings operate.

We LIKE to think we would never give our consent to the sort of things that were done in the Nazi concentration camps; we like to label the people who did them, to distance ourselves from them.

But the fact is that men like me defended and justified these things as they were happening, in full knowledge of what WAS happening, and knowing that it was happening to their former friends, neighbours, work-colleagues, even their fellow soldiers.

As ordinary men were the murderers and rapists in Kosovo and Srebrenica only a few years ago.

There but for the grace of God....

[Betty Boop]

I had a VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with a Social Psychologist when I was young, and I've never quite got over it.

She tried to make me into a School Teacher. :boo hoo:


The Milgram experiment - and the other one where they split a group of college students into guards and prisoners, which ended with the guards bullying and abusing the prisoners horrendously - these are controlled experiments which shed a great deal of light on just how human beings operate.

We LIKE to think we would never give our consent to the sort of things that were done in the Nazi concentration camps; we like to label the people who did them, to distance ourselves from them.

But the fact is that men like me defended and justified these things as they were happening, in full knowledge of what WAS happening, and knowing that it was happening to their former friends, neighbours, work-colleagues, even their fellow soldiers.

As ordinary men were the murderers and rapists in Kosovo and Srebrenica only a few years ago.

There but for the grace of God....
The Stanford prison experiment.

[--------]

The Stanford prison experiment.


That's the one. :agree: