BNP Infiltration

[Phil D. Rolls]

I read in one of the papers yesterday that the BNP have been trying to recruit youngsters via internet forums like this. I can't say I've noticed any activity on that score, but I suppose they are subtle about how they do it.

Anybody seen anything that might concern them?

[Onceinawhile]

Falkirk_Hibee
:agree::wink:

[Betty Boop]

Falkirk_Hibee
:agree::wink:
:faf:

[JE89]

I read in one of the papers yesterday that the BNP have been trying to recruit youngsters via internet forums like this. I can't say I've noticed any activity on that score, but I suppose they are subtle about how they do it.

Anybody seen anything that might concern them?

Not really the same, but I get a lot of SNP crap sent through facebook. Does my nut in. Though think thats cause somebody I know sends it on, not actually people working for the party.

Although things like facebook etc with so many members seems like an ideal place to 'send out a message' though the BNP can GTF.

[marinello59]

I read in one of the papers yesterday that the BNP have been trying to recruit youngsters via internet forums like this. I can't say I've noticed any activity on that score, but I suppose they are subtle about how they do it.

Anybody seen anything that might concern them?

I don't think they would appear on here with swastika Avatars. :greengrin
More a case of them subtly trying to "normalise" their views and make them appear perfectly reasonable.. They ain't daft.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Falkirk_Hibee
:agree::wink:


:faf::top marks

[Jonnyboy]

BNP?

Big Nade's Pish?

:greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

I may be wrong but is the first post in this thread not just a subtle dig at myself?

I'm not particularly bothered if it is as I'm big enough and ugly enough to handle that, but I would rather if it was an open and honest debate.

I apologise to Filled Rolls if it was not a dig at me, and it was in fact a genuine thread.

In terms of the BNP, I would describe their leaders as a bunch of thugs who try to make themselves out to be respectable, mainstream politicians with the hope that it will gain more votes.

They come out with certain policies that, on the face of it, seem fine but anyone with half a brain should realise that if they ever get into power, the REAL BNP would soon materialise and the country would be in an even worse state than it is just now.

In the main I am supportive of right wing views but I have never, and will never, vote for the BNP.

[Allant1981]

I may be wrong but is the first post in this thread not just a subtle dig at myself?

I'm not particularly bothered if it is as I'm big enough and ugly enough to handle that, but I would rather if it was an open and honest debate.

I apologise to Filled Rolls if it was not a dig at me, and it was in fact a genuine thread.

In terms of the BNP, I would describe their leaders as a bunch of thugs who try to make themselves out to be respectable, mainstream politicians with the hope that it will gain more votes.

They come out with certain policies that, on the face of it, seem fine but anyone with half a brain should realise that if they ever get into power, the REAL BNP would soon materialise and the country would be in an even worse state than it is just now.

In the main I am supportive of right wing views but I have never, and will never, vote for the BNP.


Didnt look like it was a dig at yourself as I read the same article and they are pretty much doing what the OP says. I might be wrong and he may well have been having a dig

[Killiehibbie]

I may be wrong but is the first post in this thread not just a subtle dig at myself?

I'm not particularly bothered if it is as I'm big enough and ugly enough to handle that, but I would rather if it was an open and honest debate.

I apologise to Filled Rolls if it was not a dig at me, and it was in fact a genuine thread.

In terms of the BNP, I would describe their leaders as a bunch of thugs who try to make themselves out to be respectable, mainstream politicians with the hope that it will gain more votes.

They come out with certain policies that, on the face of it, seem fine but anyone with half a brain should realise that if they ever get into power, the REAL BNP would soon materialise and the country would be in an even worse state than it is just now.

In the main I am supportive of right wing views but I have never, and will never, vote for the BNP.

I don't think it was but can see where you're coming from. Your views are not to everybodys liking but wee snide digs with smilies are uncalled for.

[marinello59]

I may be wrong but is the first post in this thread not just a subtle dig at myself?

I'm not particularly bothered if it is as I'm big enough and ugly enough to handle that, but I would rather if it was an open and honest debate.

I apologise to Filled Rolls if it was not a dig at me, and it was in fact a genuine thread.

In terms of the BNP, I would describe their leaders as a bunch of thugs who try to make themselves out to be respectable, mainstream politicians with the hope that it will gain more votes.

They come out with certain policies that, on the face of it, seem fine but anyone with half a brain should realise that if they ever get into power, the REAL BNP would soon materialise and the country would be in an even worse state than it is just now.

In the main I am supportive of right wing views but I have never, and will never, vote for the BNP.

I didn't read it as a dig at yourself at all, probably because I had seen the same article that the OP referred to.

[IndieHibby]

The only person having a dig was Antwerhibs. It's because he (FH) is quite-right wing (by personal admission) in his views.

To suggest he is a BNP 'infiltrator' is a bit harsh. It would be akin to me suggesting that Glesgaehibs, Hibsbollah, Liverpoolhibs etc were closet communists, nay Pol-Pot / Stalin / Kim Jong-Il sympathisers.

I wonder how well that would go down? :duck:

[hibsbollah]

The only person having a dig was Antwerhibs. It's because he (FH) is quite-right wing (by personal admission) in his views.

To suggest he is a BNP 'infiltrator' is a bit harsh. It would be akin to me suggesting that Glesgaehibs, Hibsbollah, Liverpoolhibs etc were closet communists, nay Pol-Pot / Stalin / Kim Jong-Il sympathisers.

I wonder how well that would go down? :duck:

Kim JI was just misunderstood:wink:

[ancient hibee]

The only person having a dig was Antwerhibs. It's because he (FH) is quite-right wing (by personal admission) in his views.

To suggest he is a BNP 'infiltrator' is a bit harsh. It would be akin to me suggesting that Glesgaehibs, Hibsbollah, Liverpoolhibs etc were closet communists, nay Pol-Pot / Stalin / Kim Jong-Il sympathisers.

I wonder how well that would go down? :duck:

You will be disappeared for giving the game away.

[IndieHibby]

Kim JI was just misunderstood:wink:

And here was me thinking he is a murderous, insane barsteward! Silly me...

I wonder, was his brother, who Kim drowned at the age of 5 (allegedly), misunderstanding him as he gasped for his last lung full?

[GlesgaeHibby]

The only person having a dig was Antwerhibs. It's because he (FH) is quite-right wing (by personal admission) in his views.

To suggest he is a BNP 'infiltrator' is a bit harsh. It would be akin to me suggesting that Glesgaehibs, Hibsbollah, Liverpoolhibs etc were closet communists, nay Pol-Pot / Stalin / Kim Jong-Il sympathisers.

I wonder how well that would go down? :duck:

How do you know we aren't?
:duck::devil:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I may be wrong but is the first post in this thread not just a subtle dig at myself?

I'm not particularly bothered if it is as I'm big enough and ugly enough to handle that, but I would rather if it was an open and honest debate.

I apologise to Filled Rolls if it was not a dig at me, and it was in fact a genuine thread.

In terms of the BNP, I would describe their leaders as a bunch of thugs who try to make themselves out to be respectable, mainstream politicians with the hope that it will gain more votes.

They come out with certain policies that, on the face of it, seem fine but anyone with half a brain should realise that if they ever get into power, the REAL BNP would soon materialise and the country would be in an even worse state than it is just now.

In the main I am supportive of right wing views but I have never, and will never, vote for the BNP.

Absolutely not aimed at you, sorry if you thought it was. You've always stated your case. :agree:

[--------]

How do you know we aren't?
:duck::devil:


Isn't your middle name Dzerzhinsky? :devil:

[givescotlandfreedom]

And here was me thinking he is a murderous, insane barsteward! Silly me...

I wonder, was his brother, who Kim drowned at the age of 5 (allegedly), misunderstanding him as he gasped for his last lung full?

I think (and hope) he was joking :agree:

[johnbc70]

Did anyone else get a BNP leaflet through the post? Mine was waiting for me when I came home tonight.

Straight into the bin.

[davy]

while I dont support them I would say they are only using a media tool which many others use. Most people are on the web now and its just another outlet. The mainstream parties because of their money have enjoyed superiority for decades in terms of publicity and subtelty. Its time more parties were offered a chance to air their views.

[Betty Boop]

Did anyone else get a BNP leaflet through the post? Mine was waiting for me when I came home tonight.

Straight into the bin.

Postal workers are refusing to deliver them http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6293374.ece

[Sir David Gray]

Absolutely not aimed at you, sorry if you thought it was. You've always stated your case. :agree:

Don't worry about it.

I just thought the question you asked at the end of your original post was subtly trying to make reference to the other thread where I was accused of making BNP-like comments.

Apologies for getting the wrong end of the stick.


Did anyone else get a BNP leaflet through the post? Mine was waiting for me when I came home tonight.

Straight into the bin.

Yep, got mine yesterday as well.

Needless to say I've already sent away for my free poster and information pack...:wink:

[hibsbollah]

And here was me thinking he is a murderous, insane barsteward! Silly me...

I wonder, was his brother, who Kim drowned at the age of 5 (allegedly), misunderstanding him as he gasped for his last lung full?

Oh dear, I think you missed my sarcasm there, i'll try to be less subtle next time:greengrin

[Pete]

I may be wrong but is the first post in this thread not just a subtle dig at myself?

I'm not particularly bothered if it is as I'm big enough and ugly enough to handle that, but I would rather if it was an open and honest debate.

I apologise to Filled Rolls if it was not a dig at me, and it was in fact a genuine thread.

In terms of the BNP, I would describe their leaders as a bunch of thugs who try to make themselves out to be respectable, mainstream politicians with the hope that it will gain more votes.

They come out with certain policies that, on the face of it, seem fine but anyone with half a brain should realise that if they ever get into power, the REAL BNP would soon materialise and the country would be in an even worse state than it is just now.

In the main I am supportive of right wing views but I have never, and will never, vote for the BNP.

I wouldn't even class them that highly.

I had the "privilige" of seeing Nick Griffin in the flesh...walking rather sheepishly out of the car park exit of the scottish executive of all places! He's a small man with hunched shoulders and a rather sinister squint in his eyes. A less imposing man you could not meet.

He was flanked by two people. One was a man of similar age and physical stature who looked extemely nervous and the other was a guy in his early twenties wearing a tracksuit top and was your stereotypical ned.

People who have seen me know I'm no great physical specimen but I'm 100% certain I could beat the living daylights out of the three of them put together. The surprising thing was that they walked out onto Commercial Street. I'm surprised it wasn't in the paper that someone didn't take it upon themselves to "sort them out".

You honestly have to see them to believe them. No amount of intelligence makes up for the mans lack of presence and general aura. Two things that in my eyes are fairly important when it comes to being the leader of a political party....never mind his "ideas".

[Hibernianinc]

Did anyone else get a BNP leaflet through the post? Mine was waiting for me when I came home tonight.

Straight into the bin.

I tried wiping my erse on it.

I actually found it put more **** on my backside than it took off.

I'll be voting for those nice SNP people who're running the country so well right now. Should any BNP punters try to canvass my opinion, I'll be quite happy to let them know what I think.

All 6"3 of me with teurets.:agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Well, it's been a while now and the guy I suspected has said nothing. No names, but there have been a lot of posts on here lately with a right wing slant to them, but then the poster disappears when there is a debate.

I just wonder if this was some attempt to spot like minded individuals, and then attempt to recruit them using PMs. I don't suppose anyone will own up to this sort of thing, but it seems to me we should be as vigilant for these wind up merchants as we are for Yams on the main board.

I've no problem with people who post views which oppose mine. I'd be more worried if everyone agreed, tbh. But people who won't defend their corner in a reasonable way concern me. (For what my opinion is worth, of course).

[libernian]

Did anyone else get a BNP leaflet through the post? Mine was waiting for me when I came home tonight.

Straight into the bin.


i put it through mixu's letterbox

[Beefster]

This is what the BNP is all about in a nutshell:

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/308560/BNP-claim-brave-Johnson-Beharry-didnt-deserve-to-win-the-VC-National-Party-claim-Beharry-only-got-the-Victoria-Cross-because-he-is-BLACK.html

Utter bawbags.

[Woody1985]

This is what the BNP is all about in a nutshell:

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/308560/BNP-claim-brave-Johnson-Beharry-didnt-deserve-to-win-the-VC-National-Party-claim-Beharry-only-got-the-Victoria-Cross-because-he-is-BLACK.html

Utter bawbags.

Interesting article considering that the NOTW are frequently accused of being a racist/BNP supportive paper by a fair number of people on here.

[Beefster]

Interesting article considering that the NOTW are frequently accused of being a racist/BNP supportive paper by a fair number of people on here.

The NOTW is a rag that will campaign for whatever Rupert Murdoch tells them to.

Any opinion on the content of the article beyond 'interesting'?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Interesting article considering that the NOTW are frequently accused of being a racist/BNP supportive paper by a fair number of people on here.

Ironic, when you consider that most of the "journalism",you read in that rag could easily pass for a BNP recruiting leaflet. It constantly scaremongers on immigration, and freedom of speech and thought. (Step forward Carole Malone).

Maybe the BNP are too much competition for them.

[lucky]

If the BNP show their ugly head on this forum I would expect all members on this forum to demand their removal. They are evil and vile and we cant allow them to peddle their filth on this forum



get out and vote on 4th June to stop the bnp

[Betty Boop]

If the BNP show their ugly head on this forum I would expect all members on this forum to demand their removal. They are evil and vile and we cant allow them to peddle their filth on this forum



get out and vote on 4th June to stop the bnp
:agree: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/

[Betty Boop]

Nick Griffin to attend the Queen's Garden Party at Buckingham Palace. :jamboak:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/20/bnp-griffin-queen-garden

[Phil D. Rolls]

Nick Griffin to attend the Queen's Garden Party at Buckingham Palace. :jamboak:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/20/bnp-griffin-queen-garden

I'm sure he'll get on well with Prince Harry.

[Betty Boop]

I'm sure he'll get on well with Prince Harry.:agree: And Prince Philip.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree: And Prince Philip.

Och well, at least they'll get the trains running on time.

[hibsdaft]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OSzAtxnAJU

[Jonnyboy]

If the BNP show their ugly head on this forum I would expect all members on this forum to demand their removal. They are evil and vile and we cant allow them to peddle their filth on this forum



get out and vote on 4th June to stop the bnp

:agree: :top marks

Never ceases to amaze me that Griffin's life has not been threatened

[LiverpoolHibs]

:agree: :top marks

Never ceases to amaze me that Griffin's life has not been threatened

Here's hoping...

I can see a reformation of Red Action/A.F.A in the coming months if the B.N.P. continue to do well.

[hibsdaft]

Here's hoping...

I can see a reformation of Red Action/A.F.A in the coming months if the B.N.P. continue to do well.

certainly not- they've been saying the absolute opposite for about a decade now, ever since the bnp started wearing suits.

[GhostofBolivar]

:agree: And Prince Philip.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/celebrity/mystery-surrounds-bnp-invite-to-palace-200905211776/

[Betty Boop]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/celebrity/mystery-surrounds-bnp-invite-to-palace-200905211776/
:faf:" Prince Philip has requested some German fare".

[Phil D. Rolls]

Here's hoping...

I can see a reformation of Red Action/A.F.A in the coming months if the B.N.P. continue to do well.

I think they might well have a good election. It's been said before, but in England the BNP offer the only real alternative for working class people. As the mainstream parties are all hunting the middle class vote, the traditional Labour voter has been alienated. In Scotland the SNP are a viable (and non-Nazi) alternative.

On the news the other night they were in Corby. One lad - who seemed pretty ordinary to me - said that he would probably vote BNP. This was unprompted and spontaneous, and what worried me is how he said it. Not out of devilment, but like the BNP were a perfectly acceptable political party.

Unfortunately, the prompting of Murdoch papers has pushed a lot of people towards these fascists. People who are looking for someone to blame for - well, something. There seems to be a lot of anger and bitterness from working people these days, and IMHO the BNP are kicking at an open door.

[marinello59]

I think they might well have a good election. It's been said before, but in England the BNP offer the only real alternative for working class people. As the mainstream parties are all hunting the middle class vote, the traditional Labour voter has been alienated. In Scotland the SNP are a viable (and non-Nazi) alternative.

On the news the other night they were in Corby. One lad - who seemed pretty ordinary to me - said that he would probably vote BNP. This was unprompted and spontaneous, and what worried me is how he said it. Not out of devilment, but like the BNP were a perfectly acceptable political party.

Unfortunately, the prompting of Murdoch papers has pushed a lot of people towards these fascists. People who are looking for someone to blame for - well, something. There seems to be a lot of anger and bitterness from working people these days, and IMHO the BNP are kicking at an open door.

:agree:
Scarey isn't it?

[Richard Scott]

There's a van - with a BNP advertising board attatched to the back of it, that drives around our estate playing bagpipes through 4 tannoys, he's around here at the same time, every day. Screaming out his window "our countries being ruined by the immigrants who live here, the over-rich and the gays. Vote BNP at the next election and live a more fuller, cleaner life"
:grr:
Living round here, i'm quite suprised the lads haven't thrown bricks through his windscreen and set his van ablaze :grr:

[IndieHibby]

Oh dear, I think you missed my sarcasm there, i'll try to be less subtle next time:greengrin

I was being sarcastic in response, which clearly doesn't work. I will know for next time.

I did get it by the way....:wink:

[IndieHibby]

How do you know we aren't?
:duck::devil:

HA! I knew it!! :wink:

[IndieHibby]

Unfortunately, the prompting of Murdoch papers has pushed a lot of people towards these fascists. People who are looking for someone to blame for - well, something. There seems to be a lot of anger and bitterness from working people these days, and IMHO the BNP are kicking at an open door.

Agree with the bit in bold but disagree with the bit it italics.

I work in industrial south Essex and the BNP are very popular amongst (growing) minority. It's growing because some people do not have the deeper background knowledge to appreciate that the simplistic arguments used by the BNP are correct, but their underlying principles are not.

To blame the centre-right press for this is like blaming The Guardian for uncontrolled immigration and the bloated and corrupt welfare state. The IMF left Britain in a state of shock yesterday, not at the size of the budget deficit, but at Labour's unwillingness to cut back their public spending plans.

Herein lies the reason why people who, having recently got interested in politics, look at the world around them and sympathise with what the BNP say.

Labour have pandered to interest/focus/pressure/minority groups for 13 years and have enforced positive discrimination. The folly of this is that democracy is meant to represent the will of the majority - not the minority.

People rightly feel aggrieved at this, listen to who talks to them (at the moment the BNP are shouting the loudest) and have not the time, the will or the natural inclination to question their claims.

This should be a warning to the established parties. Pull your finger out :grr:, or be responsible for the rise of these racist, intellectually corrupt charlatans.

[LiverpoolHibs]

certainly not- they've been saying the absolute opposite for about a decade now, ever since the bnp started wearing suits.

How do you mean? :confused:

[LiverpoolHibs]

I think they might well have a good election. It's been said before, but in England the BNP offer the only real alternative for working class people. As the mainstream parties are all hunting the middle class vote, the traditional Labour voter has been alienated. In Scotland the SNP are a viable (and non-Nazi) alternative.

On the news the other night they were in Corby. One lad - who seemed pretty ordinary to me - said that he would probably vote BNP. This was unprompted and spontaneous, and what worried me is how he said it. Not out of devilment, but like the BNP were a perfectly acceptable political party.

Unfortunately, the prompting of Murdoch papers has pushed a lot of people towards these fascists. People who are looking for someone to blame for - well, something. There seems to be a lot of anger and bitterness from working people these days, and IMHO the BNP are kicking at an open door.

I'd agree with you but I think No2EU could have the potential for a strong leftist opposition to both Labour and the BNP if unions other than the RMT had the balls to change their allegiance and funding, I'm slightly surprised the CWU haven't switched to be honest. Any posties or others within the union know if it was debated much?

The fact that the SWP aren't involved might slightly reduced the left's embarrassing potential for internecine fighting and self-destruction.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Agree with the bit in bold but disagree with the bit it italics.

I work in industrial south Essex and the BNP are very popular amongst (growing) minority. It's growing because some people do not have the deeper background knowledge to appreciate that the simplistic arguments used by the BNP are correct, but their underlying principles are not.

To blame the centre-right press for this is like blaming The Guardian for uncontrolled immigration and the bloated and corrupt welfare state. The IMF left Britain in a state of shock yesterday, not at the size of the budget deficit, but at Labour's unwillingness to cut back their public spending plans.

Herein lies the reason why people who, having recently got interested in politics, look at the world around them and sympathise with what the BNP say.

Labour have pandered to interest/focus/pressure/minority groups for 13 years and have enforced positive discrimination. The folly of this is that democracy is meant to represent the will of the majority - not the minority.

People rightly feel aggrieved at this, listen to who talks to them (at the moment the BNP are shouting the loudest) and have not the time, the will or the natural inclination to question their claims.

This should be a warning to the established parties. Pull your finger out :grr:, or be responsible for the rise of these racist, intellectually corrupt charlatans.

Counteract the BNP by taking on their policies and acting like them! Genius...

It's also a fairly demonstrable historical fact that fascists and the far-right are generally strengthened whenever mainstream parties attempt to ape them.

[hibsbollah]

The tactics of the extreme right wing parties will depend on local conditions.

For example, next week there are Euro and a mayoral election taking place in my neck of the woods. As well as the Tory, labour, Lib Dems and Green candidate, there is a BNP Candidate AND a National Front Britain for the British (WTF?) Candidate. The NF candidates manifesto calls for things like compulsory repatriation of coloured people, capital punishment, stop foreign imports, a stop on building new mosques etc etc. In short, traditional fascist racist policies. By contrast, the BNP policies look quite moderate in comparison; tackling crime, improving the roads, improving disability access, community based learning, support small businesses, etc etc. Reading the 'guide to the candidates' leaflet that landed through my door, the BNP appears to be a 'centrist' option when compared to the NF. Which im sure is just what they intended. A non-threatening option for those wanting to punish the big parties for the expenses scandal and a few other things.

I am sure there is no real difference between the real agenda of either party though. I just hope others can see whats happening too:bitchy:

[IndieHibby]

Counteract the BNP by taking on their policies and acting like them! Genius...

It's also a fairly demonstrable historical fact that fascists and the far-right are generally strengthened whenever mainstream parties attempt to ape them.

I'm not sure what you meant by either of those statements. Can you clarify please?

[hibsbollah]

I'm not sure what you meant by either of those statements. Can you clarify please?

I think its pretty obvious what LH is saying. In your previous post you are attempting to link 'pandering to interest/focus/pressure/minority groups for 13 years' and 'Labours unwillingness to cut back their spending plans' with voters feeling 'rightly aggrieved' and (by extension) potentially supporting the BNP.

You then tell the major parties to 'pull their fingers out' or be 'responsible' for the rise of far right parties.

Your post reads to me like a call for the major parties to become more right wing as a response to this perceived 'pandering to minorities'(as LH also clearly thought). If it wasnt, what was it that your post was trying to say?

On a more abstract point, and to contradict your previous post, it isn't (or shouldnt be) the sole purpose of democracy to exercise the will of the majority in all cases. It needs to be broader than that, otherwise the will of the 49% would always be subsumed by the 51%.

[IndieHibby]

I think its pretty obvious what LH is saying. In your previous post you are attempting to link 'pandering to interest/focus/pressure/minority groups for 13 years' and 'Labours unwillingness to cut back their spending plans' with voters feeling 'rightly aggrieved' and (by extension) potentially supporting the BNP.

You then tell the major parties to 'pull their fingers out' or be 'responsible' for the rise of far right parties.

Your post reads to me like a call for the major parties to become more right wing as a response to this perceived 'pandering to minorities'(as LH also clearly thought). If it wasnt, what was it that your post was trying to say?

On a more abstract point, and to contradict your previous post, it isn't (or shouldnt be) the sole purpose of democracy to exercise the will of the majority in all cases. It needs to be broader than that, otherwise the will of the 49% would always be subsumed by the 51%.

If it was so obvious, why would I have asked for clarification :confused:

Your interpretation of my post as a 'call for parties to be more right-wing' is wrong, although I think my post could have been clearer. So to clarify, I feel that all parties (Lab, Lib Dem, Con etc) are not being clear with the electorate about what their plans are for the forthcoming parliament. Pulling their fingers out of their ********s is not my call to them to join the school of Nick Griffin, it was to point out that I feel that they should start communicating with us in a vastly improved way; to start treating us with a bit more respect rather than pissing on us and telling us it's raining (cos that's what it feels like at the moment, TBH)

It is this vacuum of meaningful dialogue, which the BNP is filling with rather more simpistic dialogue (have you seen their recent leaflet? :bitchy:) in target areas which I feel would render mainstraim parties responsible for the vote heading toward the BNP. In this race, the BNP have already set-off.

I say this out of fear, not hope. Mark my words, the BNP are going to be a minor political force in the next parliament and we are all going to have to listen to their poison-politics unless lab/con/lib dem sort their acts out.

Getting rid of corrupt MP's of all colours should only be the start.

[hibsbollah]

If it was so obvious, why would I have asked for clarification :confused:

Your interpretation of my post as a 'call for parties to be more right-wing' is wrong, although I think my post could have been clearer. So to clarify, I feel that all parties (Lab, Lib Dem, Con etc) are not being clear with the electorate about what their plans are for the forthcoming parliament. Pulling their fingers out of their ********s is not my call to them to join the school of Nick Griffin, it was to point out that I feel that they should start communicating with us in a vastly improved way; to start treating us with a bit more respect rather than pissing on us and telling us it's raining (cos that's what it feels like at the moment, TBH)

It is this vacuum of meaningful dialogue, which the BNP is filling with rather more simpistic dialogue (have you seen their recent leaflet? :bitchy:) in target areas which I feel would render mainstraim parties responsible for the vote heading toward the BNP. In this race, the BNP have already set-off.

I say this out of fear, not hope. Mark my words, the BNP are going to be a minor political force in the next parliament and we are all going to have to listen to their poison-politics unless lab/con/lib dem sort their acts out.

Getting rid of corrupt MP's of all colours should only be the start.

I agree with the bit in bold, although i think youve moved quite a bit from your previous post; if I was 'New' Labour, I would start by mounting a proper justification of why the strength of interest/focus/pressure/minority groups, what is more properly called 'civil society', is absolutely vital for creating meaningful democracy outside the confines of parliamentary democracy. Make this case clearly and strongly, and the attractiveness of the BNP should diminish.

[Phil D. Rolls]

If it was so obvious, why would I have asked for clarification :confused:

Your interpretation of my post as a 'call for parties to be more right-wing' is wrong, although I think my post could have been clearer. So to clarify, I feel that all parties (Lab, Lib Dem, Con etc) are not being clear with the electorate about what their plans are for the forthcoming parliament. Pulling their fingers out of their ********s is not my call to them to join the school of Nick Griffin, it was to point out that I feel that they should start communicating with us in a vastly improved way; to start treating us with a bit more respect rather than pissing on us and telling us it's raining (cos that's what it feels like at the moment, TBH)

It is this vacuum of meaningful dialogue, which the BNP is filling with rather more simpistic dialogue (have you seen their recent leaflet? :bitchy:) in target areas which I feel would render mainstraim parties responsible for the vote heading toward the BNP. In this race, the BNP have already set-off.

I say this out of fear, not hope. Mark my words, the BNP are going to be a minor political force in the next parliament and we are all going to have to listen to their poison-politics unless lab/con/lib dem sort their acts out.

Getting rid of corrupt MP's of all colours should only be the start.

I think we have been saying pretty much the same thing. It's a sad indictment of the political awareness of some people in this country that they can't see beyond simplistic solutions.

I can also empathis with you on the fact that Labour do appear to lack common sense at times. Whilst I agree with the broad aims of the so called "PC Brigade", I can see that they have a lot of followers who know the rules, but not the reasons for the rules.

Whether their supporters - like me - agree or not, some of the policies they have promoted have been based on doctrine, rather than what is good for people. It's right to want minority groups to be included in society, but when positive discrimination comes to bear, we can see that very often it isn't in the best interests of society, or the minorities being given a help up.

It doesn't benefit society as it is sometimes the case that people end up in positions where they are frankly, out of their depth. This rankles with those who feel that they haven't had a fair chance to go for the job - whether they were good enough for it or not. It gives them a justifiable chip on their shoulder.

Neither does it benefit the minority being favoured because they can see that they are being patronised and they have to deal with the anger of those discriminated against. All it does is reinforces their status as people with special needs.

Finally, sections of the minority group learn how to play the system, and further undermine the intentions of the positive discrimination. I have come across a few loathsome individuals who will play the race card, or the gay card whenever they are brought to task for being no use at their job.

Worse still, I have seen HR departments (the cream of British industry) bottle out of taking these idiots on. Even worse, they start to formulate policies based on what they think might offend minorities - without asking them in case, er, they take offence. Again that helps no-one.

If we are to make the world work, we have to understand each other, but it doesn't mean we have to be the same. I think the whole "we're all the same argument" is stupid and lazy. Before people think I am agreeing with the BNP here though, what I mean is that we have to learn respect for every individual, what their needs are and how we can help them to do that.

Wooly, yes, and unworkable maybe - give it a hundred years of trying and we might get there.

[Sir David Gray]

I think we have been saying pretty much the same thing. It's a sad indictment of the political awareness of some people in this country that they can't see beyond simplistic solutions.

I can also empathis with you on the fact that Labour do appear to lack common sense at times. Whilst I agree with the broad aims of the so called "PC Brigade", I can see that they have a lot of followers who know the rules, but not the reasons for the rules.

Whether their supporters - like me - agree or not, some of the policies they have promoted have been based on doctrine, rather than what is good for people. It's right to want minority groups to be included in society, but when positive discrimination comes to bear, we can see that very often it isn't in the best interests of society, or the minorities being given a help up.

It doesn't benefit society as it is sometimes the case that people end up in positions where they are frankly, out of their depth. This rankles with those who feel that they haven't had a fair chance to go for the job - whether they were good enough for it or not. It gives them a justifiable chip on their shoulder.

Neither does it benefit the minority being favoured because they can see that they are being patronised and they have to deal with the anger of those discriminated against. All it does is reinforces their status as people with special needs.

Finally, sections of the minority group learn how to play the system, and further undermine the intentions of the positive discrimination. I have come across a few loathsome individuals who will play the race card, or the gay card whenever they are brought to task for being no use at their job.

Worse still, I have seen HR departments (the cream of British industry) bottle out of taking these idiots on. Even worse, they start to formulate policies based on what they think might offend minorities - without asking them in case, er, they take offence. Again that helps no-one.

If we are to make the world work, we have to understand each other, but it doesn't mean we have to be the same. I think the whole "we're all the same argument" is stupid and lazy. Before people think I am agreeing with the BNP here though, what I mean is that we have to learn respect for every individual, what their needs are and how we can help them to do that.

Wooly, yes, and unworkable maybe - give it a hundred years of trying and we might get there.

I absolutely agree with this 100%.

This positive discrimination stuff really annoys me.

As some of you may already be aware, I am in a wheelchair. Now, I hear all the time, David Cameron, Gordon Brown etc. go on about how few Asian, homosexual, disabled people...etc there are working in certain departments and how these numbers must be addressed.

Now I can't speak for anyone else but personally I would hate to think that the only reason why I was given a particular job, was because my employer was under pressure to boost the number of disabled people in their workforce and there was in fact a better person (able bodied) than me, who went for the job but didn't get it because of this pressure.

It is completely wrong to rule someone out of a position, just because of their gender, skin colour, sexuality or whatever. But I'm afraid that must go both ways and, in every single job, the position should go to the candidate who is the most qualified to do the job.

If that person happens to be a white, able bodied, heterosexual, male then so be it.

[Mibbes Aye]

I absolutely agree with this 100%.

This positive discrimination stuff really annoys me.

As some of you may already be aware, I am in a wheelchair. Now, I hear all the time, David Cameron, Gordon Brown etc. go on about how few Asian, homosexual, disabled people...etc there are working in certain departments and how these numbers must be addressed.

Now I can't speak for anyone else but personally I would hate to think that the only reason why I was given a particular job, was because my employer was under pressure to boost the number of disabled people in their workforce and there was in fact a better person (able bodied) than me, who went for the job but didn't get it because of this pressure.

It is completely wrong to rule someone out of a position, just because of their gender, skin colour, sexuality or whatever. But I'm afraid that must go both ways and, in every single job, the position should go to the candidate who is the most qualified to do the job.

If that person happens to be a white, able bodied, heterosexual, male then so be it.

I think the point is that certain 'categories' (for want of a better word) of people are under-represented in positions of power, in relation to their share of the population. Women, people from an ethnic minority, disabled people etc etc

If advancement is purely based on ability or merit, then the question is why aren't there women, black people, physically-disabled people etc in positions of power that correlate to their numbers in the population at large?

Is it because there is something inherent to groups like these that makes them not as capable as white males?

Or is it that societally and structurally, barriers exist that indirectly block them?

If you go with the second option then it begs the question of how you go about addressing what is, on the face of it, an injustice.

Because if you do believe that there are structural and societal reasons that unfairly limit people because of their gender, race, sexuality etc then it's akin to being in a river, where the current (of oppression of certain groups) means you have to actively go against the tide just to tread water, just to avoid moving back.

There are good arguments against positive discrimination but none that seem to address the fundamental cause of the problem, which is what do you do to stem the tide, to stop the current, when such powerful social forces exist?

It's hard to see beyond a directive role for the state - certainly the Equal Pay Act, the Race Relations Act and the Disability Discrimination Act, while albeit having limited success in some areas, have done more to redress the inequity faced by some, than turning a blind eye to in-built biases in the system, under the guise of a 'level playing field for all'.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think the point is that certain 'categories' (for want of a better word) of people are under-represented in positions of power, in relation to their share of the population. Women, people from an ethnic minority, disabled people etc etc

If advancement is purely based on ability or merit, then the question is why aren't there women, black people, physically-disabled people etc in positions of power that correlate to their numbers in the population at large?

Is it because there is something inherent to groups like these that makes them not as capable as white males?

Or is it that societally and structurally, barriers exist that indirectly block them?

If you go with the second option then it begs the question of how you go about addressing what is, on the face of it, an injustice.

Because if you do believe that there are structural and societal reasons that unfairly limit people because of their gender, race, sexuality etc then it's akin to being in a river, where the current (of oppression of certain groups) means you have to actively go against the tide just to tread water, just to avoid moving back.

There are good arguments against positive discrimination but none that seem to address the fundamental cause of the problem, which is what do you do to stem the tide, to stop the current, when such powerful social forces exist?

It's hard to see beyond a directive role for the state - certainly the Equal Pay Act, the Race Relations Act and the Disability Discrimination Act, while albeit having limited success in some areas, have done more to redress the inequity faced by some, than turning a blind eye to in-built biases in the system, under the guise of a 'level playing field for all'.

I think the communities being favoured/ having the barriers removed, have a role to play. I recall a couple of years back, a sikh boy claimed that two white lads had cut his hair off out of malice. There was a big demo in Pilrig Park, and much sympathy from people like myself, as it seemed to be a racist attack.

A week or so later the lad confessed he'd cut the hair himself. Boys will be boys, and they do stupid things like this one did. However, I feel that the Asian community could have made some sort of effort to apologise for tarring people racists when it wasn't true.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think the communities being favoured/ having the barriers removed, have a role to play. I recall a couple of years back, a sikh boy claimed that two white lads had cut his hair off out of malice. There was a big demo in Pilrig Park, and much sympathy from people like myself, as it seemed to be a racist attack.

A week or so later the lad confessed he'd cut the hair himself. Boys will be boys, and they do stupid things like this one did. However, I feel that the Asian community could have made some sort of effort to apologise for tarring people racists when it wasn't true.

I remember the story. Troubled teenage laddie as I recall. Funny how the boy crying wolf sticks in the brain. Unless it's more subtle reasons to do with how we're conditioned :dunno:

One less racist incident that year. The police in Scotland recorded six and a half thousand crimes as a result of racist incidents that year (and there appears to be a consensus that recorded crime is an under-reporting of the true figure).

The police record that 50% of the victims were of Asian origin.

Where police were able to record perpetrators of the six and a half thousand crimes, 95% were white.

Maybe there are some issues for our ethnic minorities to address, but I would suggest they are small beer compared to the real problem which almost seems to be ignored. An awful lot of racist crimes are committed in this country, almost exclusively by white people.

[IndieHibby]

I agree with the bit in bold, although i think youve moved quite a bit from your previous post; if I was 'New' Labour, I would start by mounting a proper justification of why the strength of interest/focus/pressure/minority groups, what is more properly called 'civil society', is absolutely vital for creating meaningful democracy outside the confines of parliamentary democracy. Make this case clearly and strongly, and the attractiveness of the BNP should diminish.

Apologies if I was misunderstood in my first post. I accept you point about wider democracy being achieved by more than parliamentary representation. I find it difficult to accept the strength of interest/minority groups, however. (btw - how are minority groups 'civil society'?)

I feel that rules which favour someone because they are 'different', which put them at the front of the queue for jobs, services or whatever, are wrong.

Positive discrimination is still discrimination. It is this that pisses people off. Whether they then choose to vote BNP or not is down to them, but lab/lib/con aren't offering to fix these (perceived or otherwise) injustices.

England's education system in the mire becuase standards have dropped so low to accomodate those students who aren't suited to academic study. Rather than provide them with quality education institutions suited to their needs, they lower the standards of the exams/curriculum to allow more students to gain good grades. Mugabe would be proud!

[IndieHibby]

I think we have been saying pretty much the same thing. It's a sad indictment of the political awareness of some people in this country that they can't see beyond simplistic solutions.

I can also empathis with you on the fact that Labour do appear to lack common sense at times. Whilst I agree with the broad aims of the so called "PC Brigade", I can see that they have a lot of followers who know the rules, but not the reasons for the rules.

Whether their supporters - like me - agree or not, some of the policies they have promoted have been based on doctrine, rather than what is good for people. It's right to want minority groups to be included in society, but when positive discrimination comes to bear, we can see that very often it isn't in the best interests of society, or the minorities being given a help up.

It doesn't benefit society as it is sometimes the case that people end up in positions where they are frankly, out of their depth. This rankles with those who feel that they haven't had a fair chance to go for the job - whether they were good enough for it or not. It gives them a justifiable chip on their shoulder.

Neither does it benefit the minority being favoured because they can see that they are being patronised and they have to deal with the anger of those discriminated against. All it does is reinforces their status as people with special needs.

Finally, sections of the minority group learn how to play the system, and further undermine the intentions of the positive discrimination. I have come across a few loathsome individuals who will play the race card, or the gay card whenever they are brought to task for being no use at their job.

Worse still, I have seen HR departments (the cream of British industry) bottle out of taking these idiots on. Even worse, they start to formulate policies based on what they think might offend minorities - without asking them in case, er, they take offence. Again that helps no-one.

If we are to make the world work, we have to understand each other, but it doesn't mean we have to be the same. I think the whole "we're all the same argument" is stupid and lazy. Before people think I am agreeing with the BNP here though, what I mean is that we have to learn respect for every individual, what their needs are and how we can help them to do that.

Wooly, yes, and unworkable maybe - give it a hundred years of trying and we might get there.


Good reply, thanks. It seems that you are saying that positive discrimination doesn't work for those who are beneficiaries, those who lose out as a result and everybody else.

Surely meritocracy is a better guide? It requires a high degree of transparency, granted, but as principles go, it's hard to beat.

[joe_hfc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YawVS9BanAg

Mon the Paxman. Makes an arse of Griffin.

[Allant1981]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YawVS9BanAg

Mon the Paxman. Makes an arse of Clegg.


Or Griffin :wink:

[Killiehibbie]

Or Griffin :wink:

Does anybody remember griffin getting interviewed on Newsnight a while ago?
How could people take him seriously after that, most wouldn't have taken him seriously before it. He was stuttering, mumbling and came across as not very clever at all.

[Sir David Gray]

I think the point is that certain 'categories' (for want of a better word) of people are under-represented in positions of power, in relation to their share of the population. Women, people from an ethnic minority, disabled people etc etc

If advancement is purely based on ability or merit, then the question is why aren't there women, black people, physically-disabled people etc in positions of power that correlate to their numbers in the population at large?

Is it because there is something inherent to groups like these that makes them not as capable as white males?

Or is it that societally and structurally, barriers exist that indirectly block them?

If you go with the second option then it begs the question of how you go about addressing what is, on the face of it, an injustice.

Because if you do believe that there are structural and societal reasons that unfairly limit people because of their gender, race, sexuality etc then it's akin to being in a river, where the current (of oppression of certain groups) means you have to actively go against the tide just to tread water, just to avoid moving back.

There are good arguments against positive discrimination but none that seem to address the fundamental cause of the problem, which is what do you do to stem the tide, to stop the current, when such powerful social forces exist?

It's hard to see beyond a directive role for the state - certainly the Equal Pay Act, the Race Relations Act and the Disability Discrimination Act, while albeit having limited success in some areas, have done more to redress the inequity faced by some, than turning a blind eye to in-built biases in the system, under the guise of a 'level playing field for all'.

I understand what you are saying that people who represent minority groups are under-represented in certain positions in the workplace. Clearly there are instances where people are not being employed purely because they are female, old, black, disabled etc. and that is totally unacceptable, as I have already said.

As much as I wouldn't like to get a job just because my employer is under pressure to boost the number of disabled people in the workplace, I would be as equally displeased to be overlooked, just because I am in a wheelchair, unless it was something ridiculous that I had applied for, where it was physically impossible for someone in a wheelchair to do that job.

Each and every position must go to the applicant that has the best qualities and the best qualifications that are required to do that particular job, regardless of any other circumstances.

[Mibbes Aye]

I understand what you are saying that people who represent minority groups are under-represented in certain positions in the workplace. Clearly there are instances where people are not being employed purely because they are female, old, black, disabled etc. and that is totally unacceptable, as I have already said.

As much as I wouldn't like to get a job just because my employer is under pressure to boost the number of disabled people in the workplace, I would be as equally displeased to be overlooked, just because I am in a wheelchair, unless it was something ridiculous that I had applied for, where it was physically impossible for someone in a wheelchair to do that job.

Each and every position must go to the applicant that has the best qualities and the best qualifications that are required to do that particular job, regardless of any other circumstances.

Fair enough and while there are potential arguments against a strictly meritocratic approach, at least one can argue it's supposedly based on equality of opportunity.

But my point, I suppose, is that it isn't. If it was wouldn't we have more or less proportionate numbers of say, disabled people in Parliament for the sake of argument?

We don't, nor do we have proportionate numbers of women or black people.

I don't think anyone is arguing that women, or black people, or a disabled person is inherently less capable of holding such a position so it begs the question "Why aren't they?"

And once you have your answer I suppose it begs the question "What should be done about it"?

A level playing field is great but meaningless if it is surrounded by barriers.

[hibsbollah]

A level playing field is great but meaningless if it is surrounded by barriers.

:agree::top marks

[joe_hfc]

Or Griffin :wink:

no idea why i typed Clegg :confused:

[Beefster]

Each and every position must go to the applicant that has the best qualities and the best qualifications that are required to do that particular job, regardless of any other circumstances.

I don't think that there are any laws suggesting that the person most suited to a job is overlooked (in fact, from my experience, this would be as illegal as negative discrimination).

I always thought that a loose form of positive discrimination could only be used if there was a minority and A.N.Other equally suited to the job.

[IndieHibby]

I always thought that a loose form of positive discrimination could only be used if there was a minority and A.N.Other equally suited to the job.

Which is still unfair...

[IndieHibby]

Fair enough and while there are potential arguments against a strictly meritocratic approach, at least one can argue it's supposedly based on equality of opportunity.

But my point, I suppose, is that it isn't. If it was wouldn't we have more or less proportionate numbers of say, disabled people in Parliament for the sake of argument?

We don't, nor do we have proportionate numbers of women or black people.

I don't think anyone is arguing that women, or black people, or a disabled person is inherently less capable of holding such a position so it begs the question "Why aren't they?"

And once you have your answer I suppose it begs the question "What should be done about it"?



So you are saying that there is no equality of opportunity, otherwise we would see equal proportions of disabled people in Parliament, or black/women/gay/Asian/Gypsy/white working-class etc. in all sectors of the economy? ( btw - stats are a bad way to view a situation )

Isn't it a fairly big assumption to make (that the absence of enough sectors of society in every sphere of life proves that they were discriminated against while applying?)
What about the high proportion of Asian people in medicine, for example? Presumably they have been positively discriminated against?

[Beefster]

Which is still unfair...

Not really. It doesn't have to be used and if there are two equal candidates and one job then someone has to be picked. A company will generally only use it if they're trying to diversify their workforce.


What about the high proportion of Asian people in medicine, for example? Presumably they have been positively discriminated against?

I always assumed that if someone qualifies as a medical doctor, they generally get to become a medical doctor (if that's what they want)?

[Phil D. Rolls]

I remember the story. Troubled teenage laddie as I recall. Funny how the boy crying wolf sticks in the brain. Unless it's more subtle reasons to do with how we're conditioned :dunno:

One less racist incident that year. The police in Scotland recorded six and a half thousand crimes as a result of racist incidents that year (and there appears to be a consensus that recorded crime is an under-reporting of the true figure).

The police record that 50% of the victims were of Asian origin.

Where police were able to record perpetrators of the six and a half thousand crimes, 95% were white.

Maybe there are some issues for our ethnic minorities to address, but I would suggest they are small beer compared to the real problem which almost seems to be ignored. An awful lot of racist crimes are committed in this country, almost exclusively by white people.

I'd agree that the main issue is that racism still exists. I've been shocked at the amount I've encountered in the last year or so. If anything, the problem seems to be getting worse - just look at how quickly we're told that a murderer is an immigrant. It seems to make it worse to a lot of people.

What I was getting at was that to make immigration work, everyone has to see themselves as a stakeholder when it comes to maintaining an integrated community. It also has to be recognised that when you push two cultures together there is going to be some friction.

[Mibbes Aye]

So you are saying that there is no equality of opportunity, otherwise we would see equal proportions of disabled people in Parliament, or black/women/gay/Asian/Gypsy/white working-class etc. in all sectors of the economy? ( btw - stats are a bad way to view a situation )

Isn't it a fairly big assumption to make (that the absence of enough sectors of society in every sphere of life proves that they were discriminated against while applying?)

If you read what I said I didn't make the assumption, I asked the question. And I didn't relate it every sphere of life, I related it to positions of power.


What about the high proportion of Asian people in medicine, for example? Presumably they have been positively discriminated against?

Why and how?

[Mibbes Aye]

I'd agree that the main issue is that racism still exists. I've been shocked at the amount I've encountered in the last year or so. If anything, the problem seems to be getting worse - just look at how quickly we're told that a murderer is an immigrant. It seems to make it worse to a lot of people.

What I was getting at was that to make immigration work, everyone has to see themselves as a stakeholder when it comes to maintaining an integrated community. It also has to be recognised that when you push two cultures together there is going to be some friction.

:agree:

[IndieHibby]

If you read what I said I didn't make the assumption, I asked the question.

Why and how?

You asked the question, yes, but you didn't state the answer before saying "When you have the answer, the question is what to do about it?" So readers of your post were left in the dark regarding what you feel the answer is. Hence why I had to infer...

You used, as your evidence that people are being discriminated against, the statistics which show that minorities are not represented in positions of power (apologies for missing that first time round :wink:).

I am merely trying to suggest that there may be other factors which contribute to this outcome...

With regard to "Why and how?" (Asians are positively discriminated against)

To be fair, I asked that question :rolleyes:. Anyway, (some) Asians are more represented in Medicine because it is an aspect of their culture that they encourage their children into it. Might opposite/negative influences play an equal and opposite part in other areas of minority discrimination?

[Dashing Bob S]

I'd rather see Peter Griffin from Family Guy in power in Britain than his odious clown of a namesake, but it seems to me that Griffin is the Blair/Cameron figure of Nazism, taking a Nazi Party and rebranding it as some sort of a diet fascist outfit. It means they'll get a few more votes from disenfranchised English working-class voters, and might even swing a few seats, but I think most people have clocked them for the fools they are.

The main problem is how their racist policies influence the mainstream parties, whom history has shown us, will DO ANYTHING for votes, even pander to the most vile and simplistic racism.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You asked the question, yes, but you didn't state the answer before saying "When you have the answer, the question is what to do about it?" So readers of your post were left in the dark regarding what you feel the answer is. Hence why I had to infer...

You used, as your evidence that people are being discriminated against, the statistics which show that minorities are not represented in positions of power (apologies for missing that first time round :wink:).

I am merely trying to suggest that there may be other factors which contribute to this outcome...

With regard to "Why and how?" (Asians are positively discriminated against)

To be fair, I asked that question :rolleyes:. Anyway, (some) Asians are more represented in Medicine because it is an aspect of their culture that they encourage their children into it. Might opposite/negative influences play an equal and opposite part in other areas of minority discrimination?

I suppose you could also say that Irish people are over represented in the Catholic clergy, and that Scots are over represented in nursing (and - traditionally - medicine).

I'm not saying that this is typical of all asians, but I heard an interesting conversation on the train. This woman was phoning her pals to tell them that she had just been made redundant. When she was talking about a tribunal, she said she had strong grounds for unfair dismissal - she was the only asian manager, and the only manager sacked.

It struck me that she was missing the issue, she should have been fighting the case on the grounds that she was better at her job than those who were retained. I don't suppose it crossed her mind that it was possible she had only got the job in the first place because she was asian.

It's that sort of attitude that gets people's goat. I know of a supermarket in Edinburgh, where asian staff are very quick to play the race card whenever their performance is brought into question. You get the impression that the management - who were pretty inept to begin with - are shying away from tackling this racist behaviour on the part of their staff.

Of course, when other staff see this happening, they don't blame it on incompetentcy in the people in charge. Instead they transfer their anger onto the whole asian community.

I think it's for everyone to find a way where people aren't discriminated against, nor can they use their ethnicity as a weapon. That's for all the communities to work out. Sadly, at the moment, few people seem to be looking for solutions, they are happier to find reasons for their unhappiness with the world.

[Woody1985]

I suppose you could also say that Irish people are over represented in the Catholic clergy, and that Scots are over represented in nursing (and - traditionally - medicine).

I'm not saying that this is typical of all asians, but I heard an interesting conversation on the train. This woman was phoning her pals to tell them that she had just been made redundant. When she was talking about a tribunal, she said she had strong grounds for unfair dismissal - she was the only asian manager, and the only manager sacked.

It struck me that she was missing the issue, she should have been fighting the case on the grounds that she was better at her job than those who were retained. I don't suppose it crossed her mind that it was possible she had only got the job in the first place because she was asian.

It's that sort of attitude that gets people's goat. I know of a supermarket in Edinburgh, where asian staff are very quick to play the race card whenever their performance is brought into question. You get the impression that the management - who were pretty inept to begin with - are shying away from tackling this racist behaviour on the part of their staff.

Of course, when other staff see this happening, they don't blame it on incompetentcy in the people in charge. Instead they transfer their anger onto the whole asian community.

I think it's for everyone to find a way where people aren't discriminated against, nor can they use their ethnicity as a weapon. That's for all the communities to work out. Sadly, at the moment, few people seem to be looking for solutions, they are happier to find reasons for their unhappiness with the world.

:top marks

We don't always agree on things but that is outstanding.