Right Wing Arguments - Common Sense or Ignorance

[Phil D. Rolls]

I've been giving some thought to some of the things right wing poiticians come out with, and it strikes me that - on the whole, they don't really think things through. Most of their "common sense" approaches to life and society, seem to be based on the premise that all that's needed is for everyone to roll up their sleeves and jolly well get on with it.

Do you think this is because the majority of them are thick, or have no real experience of life. Or, is it more sinister in that they are used to getting what they want, without explaining why they should have it, or even thinking about it?

And why do ordinary people so readily fall for their simplistic answers to life's problems?

[Jack]

You're right, the ‘right wing’, Cameron and the rest of the Tories, the ‘old money’ et al do seem to have this roll your sleeves up and get on with it attitude. Rah! Rah! Rah!

The trouble is, in my experience, they normally have ‘a man’ to do it for them while they sit on their fat ***** saying its simply not good enough and pooh, pooh the idea that their ‘man’ should get an adequate reward.

Ordinary people (no-one is ordinary) get on with it because they need to fill their gobs and survive.

[hibsbollah]

To make the rich work hard, you pay them more.
To work the poor work hard, you pay them less.

Thats the way it is for the right-wing elite:agree:

[Andy74]

I've been giving some thought to some of the things right wing poiticians come out with, and it strikes me that - on the whole, they don't really think things through. Most of their "common sense" approaches to life and society, seem to be based on the premise that all that's needed is for everyone to roll up their sleeves and jolly well get on with it.

Do you think this is because the majority of them are thick, or have no real experience of life. Or, is it more sinister in that they are used to getting what they want, without explaining why they should have it, or even thinking about it?

And why do ordinary people so readily fall for their simplistic answers to life's problems?


In another thread that you started on a banker due to retire soon you have fallen pretty readily for the simplistic line fed to you by the media on bankers in general.

Easy done eh.

[Phil D. Rolls]

In another thread that you started on a banker due to retire soon you have fallen pretty readily for the simplistic line fed to you by the media on bankers in general.

Easy done eh.

In a sense yes, and in a sense no. In many ways you are right in what you say, however, in fairness to all, I must confess that I hated the banks and the banking system long before the media woke up to the fact that they aren't all like Howard in the HBOS commercials.

So to blame the media for my opinions is a tad unfair, as - funnily enough - it was more getting hit with £35 charges for going £1 overdrawn; the lack of any branches to complain at; and generally observing the snouts in the trough at corporate bonding sessions, that made me think something wasn't quite right.

Regardless, though, making me wrong on one subject doesn't make the right wingers more intelligent.

[ancient hibee]

Why is people who are charged for going overdrawn are only a £1 over?Is it like the people who get parking tickets who are always going into a shop to get change or are just a minute over?Urban myths of our time.

[Woody1985]

Why is people who are charged for going overdrawn are only a £1 over?Is it like the people who get parking tickets who are always going into a shop to get change or are just a minute over?Urban myths of our time.

Could it be because people generally get caught out by a £6 DD or whatever. That is my experience of people going overdrawn.

I don't know anyone who's ever said, I was raging the other day because my £170 direct debit put my overdrawn. It is also unlikely that you'll make a large purchase and go overdrawn as it'll normally be made by switch (when you're credability is checked before hand) or if made by cash you've already taken the funds out (which you couldn't if you never had them).

That's my tuppence worth.

[Pretty Boy]

The right wing is like the left, some thinks make sense, others don't.

Generally my sympathies lie on the left but there are elements of moderate right wing thinking i agree with.

As for bank charges since i now theoretically part own the RBS i think i might write them a letter complaining about charges and charge them a £35 admin fee for the privilege.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The right wing is like the left, some thinks make sense, others don't.

Generally my sympathies lie on the left but there are elements of moderate right wing thinking i agree with.

As for bank charges since i now theoretically part own the RBS i think i might write them a letter complaining about charges and charge them a £35 admin fee for the privilege.

There's some right wingers I admire a lot. I disagreed with the late Enoch Powell :duck: on a lot of issues, but the way he made his point was compelling, and there was a lot of sense in a lot of what he said.

On the bank charges, I agree that it is that niggly wee direct debit that usually did it for me, sometimes by a matter of a penny or so. Fair play to the bank, they would refund it if I appealed. But to a lot of people it was something they could carry, and just got on with it.

Result was the banks made a sizeable proportion of their retail profit from these charges, which the OFT said were unfair. I don't think the banks really appreciate how much that practice stuck in people's craws, and how many people thought it was not a decent way to behave.

[Mixu62]

There are some right wingers I admire too. Mickey Weir, Kevin McAllister, Danny Lennon.....

I'll get me coat.

[Onceinawhile]

Why is people who are charged for going overdrawn are only a £1 over?Is it like the people who get parking tickets who are always going into a shop to get change or are just a minute over?Urban myths of our time.

I was charged over £300 for going 44 pence overdrawn. Not an urban myth.

I tend to find that those on the right wing are more simplistic as they are less educated and don't think about consequences beyond what they can get for themselves.

E.g. "we will pull the UK out of the EU and save ourselves 300 million a year" *made up figure.

When in reality what would actually happen would be all our businesses would become chronically uncompetitive as we would need to pay the common import tariff to trade into the EU which would have to of course, be put onto prices.

[Big Ed]

I think that the Political Right tend to underline prejudices that all of us can be susceptible to. Fair enough.
The big thing that really gets on my nerves about them is how they rally round the flag (no matter which country they are from) and claim it for themselves. Anyone who suggests that foreigners/outsiders have a point is immediately pilloried.
It does my nut in!

[Sir David Gray]

I think that the Political Right tend to underline prejudices that all of us can be susceptible to. Fair enough.
The big thing that really gets on my nerves about them is how they rally round the flag (no matter which country they are from) and claim it for themselves. Anyone who suggests that foreigners/outsiders have a point is immediately pilloried.
It does my nut in!

As someone who has right leaning tendencies, I would like to disagree with the bit in bold.

In Scotland the saltire is most associated, in political terms, with the SNP, a centre-left party.

I also don't agree that all right wing people completely dismiss the point of view of all foreigners. If someone has something genuine to say on an issue that I am interested in, I will give their opinion the respect that it deserves, regardless of which country they come from. That doesn't even come into it.

I actually find many people on the far left, a lot less tolerant of views that differ from their own.

[Removed]

I actually find many people on the far left, a lot less tolerant of views that differ from their own.

:agree: and they're the looneys

[Phil D. Rolls]

As someone who has right leaning tendencies, I would like to disagree with the bit in bold.

In Scotland the saltire is most associated, in political terms, with the SNP, a centre-left party.

I also don't agree that all right wing people completely dismiss the point of view of all foreigners. If someone has something genuine to say on an issue that I am interested in, I will give their opinion the respect that it deserves, regardless of which country they come from. That doesn't even come into it.

I actually find many people on the far left, a lot less tolerant of views that differ from their own.

I don't know how to compare intolerance between right and left. The left wingers tend to have that crazy eyed revolutionary look and are very dogmatic, they'll harangue you into submission through argument, referring to sociology and history. Those on the far right tend to use an absolutist approach, their arguments tend to be based on what they see as morality.

I'd say the far left are more intelligent than the far right, on the whole. They have to be, as there are so many more barriers they have to get past to argue against the established order of things.

[Woody1985]

I don't know how to compare intolerance between right and left. The left wingers tend to have that crazy eyed revolutionary look and are very dogmatic, they'll harangue you into submission through argument, referring to sociology and history. Those on the far right tend to use an absolutist approach, their arguments tend to be based on what they see as morality.

I'd say the far left are more intelligent than the far right, on the whole. They have to be, as there are so many more barriers they have to get past to argue against the established order of things.

If you speak to someone who is far left and you don't agree with them they always come across as 'you're not as intelligent or as well educated as me so your opinion doesn't count' BS. When they have no idea of your background or education. I've seen a fair bit of it on here as well. I tend to find that they try to mock people with their intellectual put downs and then when people get arsey back it's a case of 'no need for personal abuse' when they do the exact same but with nicer words.

People who are that far up their arse can't be taken seriously.

There needs to be a balance somewhere in the middle as some things on the left are better and vice versa.

[Andy74]

Why is people think going overdrawn is okay?

You get free banking so long as you continue to use your one money. If you agree in advance to use someone else's money for a while you will probably have to pay a rate to do it, some will give a certain amount for free.

If however you use someone else's money without permission you will get charged. some of the figure mentioned must be because the amount was not paid back or was made worse by additional unathorised borrowing.

[Phil D. Rolls]

If you speak to someone who is far left and you don't agree with them they always come across as 'you're not as intelligent or as well educated as me so your opinion doesn't count' BS. When they have no idea of your background or education. I've seen a fair bit of it on here as well. I tend to find that they try to mock people with their intellectual put downs and then when people get arsey back it's a case of 'no need for personal abuse' when they do the exact same but with nicer words.

People who are that far up their arse can't be taken seriously.

There needs to be a balance somewhere in the middle as some things on the left are better and vice versa.

I think you're more likely to listen to someone who can convince you that they are intelligent enough to think things through. Someone making crude insults has all the punching power of a drunk man fighting with his chips.

My feeling is that most right wing arguments have no real substance to them and are based on so called "common sense" - which doesn't bear any real analysis.

[Woody1985]

Why is people think going overdrawn is okay?

You get free banking so long as you continue to use your one money. If you agree in advance to use someone else's money for a while you will probably have to pay a rate to do it, some will give a certain amount for free.

If however you use someone else's money without permission you will get charged. some of the figure mentioned must be because the amount was not paid back or was made worse by additional unathorised borrowing.

I don't think people do think it's acceptable. I think the outrage comes into play when they're charged £35.

For a bank like RBS I'm sure there must be a fully automated process that adds charges to overdrawn customers, as well as an automated letter. Therefore, the true cost of a charge like this is probably in the region of 50p/£1 given that large companies 2nd class postage plus paper costs amount to around 22p all in.

I went overdrawn a while back and was given a £10 charge (this was with RBS). I happily paid it as it was an error on my part.

Although interestingly, I worked as a systems tester and used my live account to test a production system to test my change after implementation. I set up a £1,000,000.00 transaction against my RBS account which I meant to cancel. It was paid and I was something like £1,000,325.00 overdrawn! Although I never waited to see if it cleared because I had no money.

I had to go into the bank and the clerk told me I was talking rubbish until she looked at my account just about keeled over. :LOL:

I still regret to this day not waiting to see if it cleared. Worst case scneario I probably would have got a large exgratia or the interest whilst it was in my savings account.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I'm not sure you can deny the right's intellectual history - as much as I'd like to. Thomas Hobbes, Edmund Burke, Wordsworth, Coleridge and Southey (all later in life), Russel Kirk, Conor Cruise O'Brien (throws up) not to mention the hunners of right-wing/conservative literary figures.

It just so happens they're all wrong...

[BravestHibs]

Why is people think going overdrawn is okay?

You get free banking so long as you continue to use your one money. If you agree in advance to use someone else's money for a while you will probably have to pay a rate to do it, some will give a certain amount for free.

If however you use someone else's money without permission you will get charged. some of the figure mentioned must be because the amount was not paid back or was made worse by additional unathorised borrowing.

In most countries, Australia for one, Hungary for another you have to pay the banks just for the privelage of having an account. I don't know how much, or which I'd rather to be honest. Charges when I'm overdrawn or charges when I'm not.

[Jack]

I'd say the far left are more intelligent than the far right, on the whole. They have to be, as there are so many more barriers they have to get past to argue against the established order of things.

Just my opinion like but once either side of the left or right claim, or are claimed, to be the more intelligent the more their intransigence to consider the others argument makes them look right stupid. :agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

In most countries, Australia for one, Hungary for another you have to pay the banks just for the privelage of having an account. I don't know how much, or which I'd rather to be honest. Charges when I'm overdrawn or charges when I'm not.

I don't think many people object to banks covering their costs for overdrawn accounts, or for missed Direct Debits, it's the fact that the charge is a lot more than their costs.

[BravestHibs]

I don't think many people object to banks covering their costs for overdrawn accounts, or for missed Direct Debits, it's the fact that the charge is a lot more than their costs.

I object. They get access to the money I've worked hard for so that they can gamble it away chasing exhorbitant profits. If they said that my money wouldn't be used for them to make a profit on in such a way then I'd be happy for them to charge me if my behaviour cost them money, but they are already making money off me. Why should they get this extra money off me as well?

You can't have your cake and eat it.

[RyeSloan]

I object. They get access to the money I've worked hard for so that they can gamble it away chasing exhorbitant profits. If they said that my money wouldn't be used for them to make a profit on in such a way then I'd be happy for them to charge me if my behaviour cost them money, but they are already making money off me. Why should they get this extra money off me as well?

You can't have your cake and eat it.

Urmm that's the fundamentals of banking you want to change there..not likely and anyway your money is guranteed to a certian level so the chances of you not getting any regular current account monies back are pretty much nil.

I agree that it's fair for banks to charge for being overdrawn and would definately prefer this compared to being charged simply for having a current account no matter how well I ran it. However I disagree that £35 is fair for a small (say less than £10) unauthorised overdraft for a very short period of time.

However do I blame the banks for this, well yes and no...they are businesses and like all companies will probably charge a high a figure as possible. Of course all banks are heavily regulated so the regulator could quite easily have put a stop to this much earlier, the issue ahs been around for quite a while after all...just like they could have prevented the asset bubble so in my mind while the banks are culpable to some extent it's yet again a failure in regulation that is the primary source of the problem.

[BravestHibs]

Urmm that's the fundamentals of banking you want to change there..not likely and anyway your money is guranteed to a certian level so the chances of you not getting any regular current account monies back are pretty much nil.

I agree that it's fair for banks to charge for being overdrawn and would definately prefer this compared to being charged simply for having a current account no matter how well I ran it. However I disagree that £35 is fair for a small (say less than £10) unauthorised overdraft for a very short period of time.

However do I blame the banks for this, well yes and no...they are businesses and like all companies will probably charge a high a figure as possible. Of course all banks are heavily regulated so the regulator could quite easily have put a stop to this much earlier, the issue ahs been around for quite a while after all...just like they could have prevented the asset bubble so in my mind while the banks are culpable to some extent it's yet again a failure in regulation that is the primary source of the problem.

Urmm, I never said anything about changing the fundamentals. The point I'm trying to make is that they have our money to make their profits with, the fact that they then add a ridiculous amount of money to make some extra money with is completely unfair. If I went around imposing a BravestHibs tax which involved me Direct Debiting £30 from whoever I fancied I would get in big trouble.

The only thing that would be fair in my opinion would be charging the same amount of interest that they give us in our respective current accounts which if I remember correctly is something completely negligable like .7 of a percent.

As for banks being like any other businesses well that there is complete bunkom.
Which other companies apart from the banks do I have to become a customer of in order to get a job for example?

This could probably be a different thread.

[steakbake]

I don't subscribe to the absolutist idea of left wing and right wing arguments.

On the left, there's a lot of "tax the rich", "class war" and all this kind of stuff. If there is anyone perpetuating the notion of a class system in this country, it is the left wing.

On the right, they like simplistic arguments as well like "stop immigration" or "roll up the sleeves and get on with it" is all very well coming out with this kind of simplicity, but life is more complicated than that.

I find the angst of unreconstructed socialists as depressing as the rantings of a far right nutter.

Complex problems require complex solutions.

[bawheid]

If I went around imposing a BravestHibs tax which involved me Direct Debiting £30 from whoever I fancied I would get in big trouble.


You might be onto something there. If everyone would PM me their bank details I will do the rest.

Thanks.

[davy]

Not too sure what right wing is? For example I see sailors fighting for our country who exist in 24 bunk cabins with little space to swing a cat and they dont complain, or soldiers having to fight a war with inferior equiptment, yet a prisoner who is on a life sentence for rape can bemoan the fact he is in a doubled up cell and having to slop out. I know what my thoughts are...anyway just wondering

[LiverpoolHibs]

Not too sure what right wing is? For example I see sailors fighting for our country who exist in 24 bunk cabins with little space to swing a cat and they dont complain, or soldiers having to fight a war with inferior equiptment, yet a prisoner who is on a life sentence for rape can bemoan the fact he is in a doubled up cell and having to slop out. I know what my thoughts are...anyway just wondering

Where?

[davy]

Where?


wasnt necessarily talking in the present tense, but not much has changed for them since the Falklands...the point is I dont have much truck with the liberals who pander to every moaning undeserving case when there are far more important cases, the Gurkhas being the most recent case in question. I have never voted tories in my life but I guess in a lot of ways I do have right wing views

[LiverpoolHibs]

Not too sure what right wing is? For example I see sailors fighting for our country who exist in 24 bunk cabins with little space to swing a cat and they dont complain, or soldiers having to fight a war with inferior equiptment, yet a prisoner who is on a life sentence for rape can bemoan the fact he is in a doubled up cell and having to slop out. I know what my thoughts are...anyway just wondering


wasnt necessarily talking in the present tense, but not much has changed for them since the Falklands...the point is I dont have much truck with the liberals who pander to every moaning undeserving case when there are far more important cases, the Gurkhas being the most recent case in question. I have never voted tories in my life but I guess in a lot of ways I do have right wing views

That sounds very much like the present tense to me. :wink:

[davy]

That sounds very much like the present tense to me. :wink:


Maybe you just have a far better grasp of grammer and writing than I do :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

There seems to be an awful lot of stereotyping and generalising on this thread.

Exactly what the extreme right and left, depend on.

Funny eh?

[Hibbyradge]

I don't subscribe to the absolutist idea of left wing and right wing arguments.

On the left, there's a lot of "tax the rich", "class war" and all this kind of stuff. If there is anyone perpetuating the notion of a class system in this country, it is the left wing.

On the right, they like simplistic arguments as well like "stop immigration" or "roll up the sleeves and get on with it" is all very well coming out with this kind of simplicity, but life is more complicated than that.

I find the angst of unreconstructed socialists as depressing as the rantings of a far right nutter.

Complex problems require complex solutions.


Well said.

[da-robster]

Not too sure what right wing is? For example I see sailors fighting for our country who exist in 24 bunk cabins with little space to swing a cat and they dont complain, or soldiers having to fight a war with inferior equiptment, yet a prisoner who is on a life sentence for rape can bemoan the fact he is in a doubled up cell and having to slop out. I know what my thoughts are...anyway just wondering

The point on that is that neither case should exist and while sailors should not be asked to give thier life in such conditions that does not excuse the actions the prisoners have to perform in other words they are two totally different things and as such can not be compared