No One Was Charged!!

[Phil D. Rolls]

I sometimes hear people asking "what do you have to do get locked up these days". Simple, change your name to Shah or Khan, and just wait for Greater Manchester Police to knock on your door. Don't let your lack of misdemeanour concern you, as using new government legislation, they can restrict your liberty for, well, as long as they feel like actually.

When they let you go they'll give you a written note to take to your University, or employer (assuming you're still employed) explaining that you looked like you might have been about to do something or other, and it was only right that you should be punished before you did it, to save time and expense.

Simples!

[lyonhibs]

I sometimes hear people asking "what do you have to do get locked up these days". Simple, change your name to Shah or Khan, and just wait for Greater Manchester Police to knock on your door. Don't let your lack of misdemeanour concern you, as using new government legislation, they can restrict your liberty for, well, as long as they feel like actually.

When they let you go they'll give you a written note to take to your University, or employer (assuming you're still employed) explaining that you looked like you might have been about to do something or other, and it was only right that you should be punished before you did it, to save time and expense.

Simples!

Yup, it's like Minority Report (emphasis on the word "Minority") come to life. I'd love to know what sort of "intelligence" leads to these entirely innocent men's names being tarnished and lives being ruined.

Bravo the GMP and the misapplication of Anti-Terrorism leglislation!!!

[JimBHibees]

Yup, it's like Minority Report (emphasis on the word "Minority") come to life. I'd love to know what sort of "intelligence" leads to these entirely innocent men's names being tarnished and lives being ruined.

Bravo the GMP and the misapplication of Anti-Terrorism leglislation!!!

What are you talking about Gordon Brown said it was a major terrorist plot so surely it must have been? :agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

What are you talking about Gordon Brown said it was a major terrorist plot so surely it must have been? :agree:

Good job none of the guys tried to get on a tube train, they might have been shot to establish whether they were guilty or not,

[lyonhibs]

Good job none of the guys tried to get on a tube train, they might have been shot to establish whether they were guilty or not,

It's a tricky process in this day and age if you apply the unilateral approach that anyone wearing a turban/has a bushy moustache is PROBABLY out to kill you. Due process and the rights of a defendant to be considered innocent until guilty are pesky remnants of a bygone era.

Why take the chance I say - shoot now, ask questions (maybe) later :agree: :agree:

[GhostofBolivar]

Good job none of the guys tried to get on a tube train, they might have been shot to establish whether they were guilty or not,

It's like drowning people to prove their innocence of witchcraft.

If we shoot you and you explode, you're a suicide bomber.

If you don't explode you're innocent and we apologise for any inconvenience.

[Pete]

Yup, it's like Minority Report (emphasis on the word "Minority") come to life. I'd love to know what sort of "intelligence" leads to these entirely innocent men's names being tarnished and lives being ruined.

Bravo the GMP and the misapplication of Anti-Terrorism leglislation!!!

What gives you the right to know about the sort of intelligence that leads to the deportation of these people?

Do you think they just round up "random pakis", process them and deport them to let the white house know we are doing something?...or maybe for some other agenda.

I despair, I really do.

I thank god there are people gathering intelligence to prevent bampots blowing up "legit targets".

[GhostofBolivar]

What gives you the right to know about the sort of intelligence that leads to the deportation of these people?

Do you think they just round up "random pakis", process them and deport them to let the white house know we are doing something?...or maybe for some other agenda.

I despair, I really do.

I thank god there are people gathering intelligence to prevent bampots blowing up "legit targets".

You could make the argument that it'd be in the public interest to know what happened in this case, considering that this is hardly the first time something like this has happened.

It's not that people are gathering intelligence, but it's the quality of it and the use to which is it put that concerns me.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What gives you the right to know about the sort of intelligence that leads to the deportation of these people?

Do you think they just round up "random pakis", process them and deport them to let the white house know we are doing something?...or maybe for some other agenda.

I despair, I really do.

I thank god there are people gathering intelligence to prevent bampots blowing up "legit targets".

At the same time, if we just let them lock people up without asking why, we are going down a dangerous route. We've already got a PM who acts like Stalin, do we really want a police force that acts like the KGB?

[Onceinawhile]

You could make the argument that it'd be in the public interest to know what happened in this case, considering that this is hardly the first time something like this has happened.

It's not that people are gathering intelligence, but it's the quality of it and the use to which is it put that concerns me.

Thus being the crux of the matter, had they gathered the intelligence, then stormed the homes and found bombs, I'm sure no one here would be bothered about it. However they didn't and once again showed the intelligence (just like the intelligence that justified the Iraq war) to be nonsense. In the meantime, given their poor treatment, it probably gave radical clerics a new audience.

Bravo Police.

[lyonhibs]

What gives you the right to know about the sort of intelligence that leads to the deportation of these people?

Do you think they just round up "random pakis", process them and deport them to let the white house know we are doing something?...or maybe for some other agenda.

I despair, I really do.

I thank god there are people gathering intelligence to prevent bampots blowing up "legit targets".

I didn't say I expected the right to get access to top secret intelligence. My point was that in this case, the "evidence" was completely bogus (or at best incredibly weak and sketchy) and all the accused were released without charge. As far as I'm concerned, any law abiding person has nothing to hide, so the goverment can go about gathering intelligence until the cows come home for all I care.

In this case it was the amateurish "analysis" and application of the intelligence that worries me, not the fact that the police collected it.

[CropleyWasGod]

I've missed something here.

If no charges were brought, why are 11 of the 12 being deported?

[Woody1985]

Thus being the crux of the matter, had they gathered the intelligence, then stormed the homes and found bombs, I'm sure no one here would be bothered about it. However they didn't and once again showed the intelligence (just like the intelligence that justified the Iraq war) to be nonsense. In the meantime, given their poor treatment, it probably gave radical clerics a new audience.

Bravo Police.

Yes, but the whole 'idiot reveals police raid' made them act earlier than required. There's the possibility that the raid might not have happened (probably a slim chance) had the been able to get a full intelligence picture.

Police have to go with instinct sometimes and search places they might not be 100% convinced there is something there/wrong. There is a risk of alienating certain groups of people whilst doing that but as long as what the police are doing is within the law and in the best interests of the people I have no issue with it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yes, but the whole 'idiot reveals police raid' made them act earlier than required. There's the possibility that the raid might not have happened (probably a slim chance) had the been able to get a full intelligence picture.

Police have to go with instinct sometimes and search places they might not be 100% convinced there is something there/wrong. There is a risk of alienating certain groups of people whilst doing that but as long as what the police are doing is within the law and in the best interests of the people I have no issue with it.

I dare say a lot of people in Germany comforted themselves with that thought in 1939.

[--------]

I didn't say I expected the right to get access to top secret intelligence. My point was that in this case, the "evidence" was completely bogus (or at best incredibly weak and sketchy) and all the accused were released without charge. As far as I'm concerned, any law abiding person has nothing to hide, so the goverment can go about gathering intelligence until the cows come home for all I care.

In this case it was the amateurish "analysis" and application of the intelligence that worries me, not the fact that the police collected it.


Exactly. Intelligence gathering is only one stage of a process. Evaluation, analysis and interpretation should follow.

Our police seem to be awfully good at gathering information.

They don't seem to be very good at all in evaluating, analysing and interpreting the information they acquire.

I'm not surprised that many Asian people feel threatened and alienated by the way the police behave.

I feel threatened and alienated by a lot of what I see going on around me these days.

An unholy alliance of a highly-politicised police force and a political establishment devoid of any sense of morality or decency or truth.

[Killiehibbie]

I've missed something here.

If no charges were brought, why are 11 of the 12 being deported?

They are being deported because they are here illegally.

[CropleyWasGod]

They are being deported because they are here illegally.

Not according to the BBC....

"We are seeking to remove these individuals on grounds of national security.

"The government's highest priority is to protect public safety. Where a foreign national poses a threat to the country, we will seek to exclude or deport them where appropriate."

However, lawyers for the men point out that they have not been charged and are innocent of any crime.

Of the 12 men arrested in raids in Liverpool, Manchester and Clitheroe in Lancashire, 11 were Pakistani nationals, with 10 holding student visas. One was from Britain.

[--------]

I thought they were students.


Yup - that's what I thought.

Maybe the polis have had fresh UNtelligence to this effect? :devil:

[Killiehibbie]

Not according to the BBC....

"We are seeking to remove these individuals on grounds of national security.

"The government's highest priority is to protect public safety. Where a foreign national poses a threat to the country, we will seek to exclude or deport them where appropriate."

However, lawyers for the men point out that they have not been charged and are innocent of any crime.

Of the 12 men arrested in raids in Liverpool, Manchester and Clitheroe in Lancashire, 11 were Pakistani nationals, with 10 holding student visas. One was from Britain.

I read they had student visas but didn't actually attend any place of education.

[Phil D. Rolls]

They are being deported because they are here illegally.

How did they get places at University then? I thought you had to have visas or approval fo your government. And why would the Pakistani government be so upset at the treatment of its citizens if they had come here illegally.

No, I don't think you're right this time. :bitchy:

[CropleyWasGod]

I read they had student visas but didn't actually attend any place of education.

Lots of British scallies have matric cards, but don't actually go to classes. Should we deport them?

Actually, that IS a thought.....

[lyonhibs]

Lots of British scallies have matric cards, but don't actually go to classes. Should we deport them?

Actually, that IS a thought.....

:faf: :faf: So true. I dare say if the government is to start deporting foreign students cos they bunk off a few classes, it had better start a Bureau to work out exactly how many "sketchy" student discounts are gained every week, and start collecting. There's got to be a good few million in them there fake student cards!!

[hibsbollah]

They are being deported because they are here illegally.

Wrong. They were here on student visas. They were deported on the very Reichstag-like phrase 'on the grounds of national security'. Which could mean anything. And probably does.

[Killiehibbie]

Wrong. They were here on student visas. They were deported on the very Reichstag-like phrase 'on the grounds of national security'. Which could mean anything. And probably does.

Are you not meant to be a studying student in that case? They were not.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Are you not meant to be a studying student in that case? They were not.

Think it would be very hard to prove that someone is a studying student. I do know that some of them were at University when they were lifted, which suggests to me they were active on their courses.

Of course, terrorists and spies do try to live a "normal" life as a cover. At the end of the day though, these guys did nothing wrong, yet they were lifted and sent back to their country. I don't know why, but it seems that the British have acted like one of those countries they say we should be protected from.

[--------]

Think it would be very hard to prove that someone is a studying student. I do know that some of them were at University when they were lifted, which suggests to me they were active on their courses.

Of course, terrorists and spies do try to live a "normal" life as a cover. At the end of the day though, these guys did nothing wrong, yet they were lifted and sent back to their country. I don't know why, but it seems that the British have acted like one of those countries they say we should be protected from.

:agree: Obviously, if they're attending their classes and living a normal life, that's cover for the fact that they're terrorists.

If they're cutting classes and lounging about at home doing whatever Muslim students do when they're bunking off, then obviously they're living an abnormal life and must be terrorists.

Catch-22. Simples!

[Woody1985]

Think it would be very hard to prove that someone is a studying student. I do know that some of them were at University when they were lifted, which suggests to me they were active on their courses.

Of course, terrorists and spies do try to live a "normal" life as a cover. At the end of the day though, these guys did nothing wrong, yet they were lifted and sent back to their country. I don't know why, but it seems that the British have acted like one of those countries they say we should be protected from.

It can't be that hard. It would be quite easy to determine their qualifications before entering a course and how that is comparable with the grades they're achieving, if they start to go down drastically then it may suggest there isn't much studying going on (for whatever reason, personal issues etc). You could also check attendance levels etc etc. It was generally quite obvious at school whom the people were who didn't do much studying.



I dare say a lot of people in Germany comforted themselves with that thought in 1939.

:LOL:

So by saying that I think the police should be able to act within the law for the interest of the British public that is somehow comparable to Nazi Germany!

The police have a very difficult job in preventing terrorism. Their intelligence may let them down from time to time but what do you suggest? Stopping and not trying in case they get it wrong or are you suggesting that the government are trying to target Pakistani nationals to get them out of the country? I read there are over 50,000 here on student visas. Kicking out ten on grounds of national security is hardly packing them off to concentration camps now is it?

[hibsbollah]

:LOL:

So by saying that I think the police should be able to act within the law for the interest of the British public that is somehow comparable to Nazi Germany!

The police have a very difficult job in preventing terrorism. Their intelligence may let them down from time to time but what do you suggest? Stopping and not trying in case they get it wrong or are you suggesting that the government are trying to target Pakistani nationals to get them out of the country? I read there are over 50,000 here on student visas. Kicking out ten on grounds of national security is hardly packing them off to concentration camps now is it?

Unfortunately its no laughing matter. Fascism rarely happens overnight, its usually happens as a serious of small incremental steps that gradually erode public freedoms, almost without the citizens noticing. If history tells us one thing its that a gradual erosion of individual freedoms need to be fought at all costs.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It can't be that hard. It would be quite easy to determine their qualifications before entering a course and how that is comparable with the grades they're achieving, if they start to go down drastically then it may suggest there isn't much studying going on (for whatever reason, personal issues etc). You could also check attendance levels etc etc. It was generally quite obvious at school whom the people were who didn't do much studying.

So by saying that I think the police should be able to act within the law for the interest of the British public that is somehow comparable to Nazi Germany!

The police have a very difficult job in preventing terrorism. Their intelligence may let them down from time to time but what do you suggest? Stopping and not trying in case they get it wrong or are you suggesting that the government are trying to target Pakistani nationals to get them out of the country? I read there are over 50,000 here on student visas. Kicking out ten on grounds of national security is hardly packing them off to concentration camps now is it?

I think you might have quite a few empty seats in the lecture theatres if you start to assess how hard students are trying.

Yes, I am saying that how the British state, and its citizens are responding to this incident is comparable to Nazi Germany. At that time people considered it was OK to punish, Jews, Communists, Homosexuals and Gypsies, because their government said it was. In this country, we are allowing justice to be put to one side - becuase our government can see a threat. There might be a threat, but their is no evidence - so what do I trust, a government that lies and acts like a totalitarian state, or what I see with my own eyes, and the lessons I have learned from history?

The issue here is whether people can be treated the way these guys have, without any trial, chance to defend themselves or explain their actions. If we tolerate this, then our children will be next.