Chavez and Obama.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Hugo Chavez creates an overnight bestseller after presenting Obama with a copy of Eduardo Galeano's Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent (which is a brilliant book by the way), which details the political and economic exploitation of Latin America by Europe and later North America.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8007472.stm

The man has certainly got a sense of the theatrical. :greengrin

[--------]

Hugo Chavez creates an overnight bestseller after presenting Obama with a copy of Eduardo Galeano's Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent (which is a brilliant book by the way), which details the political and exploitation of Latin America by Europe and later North America.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8007472.stm

The man has certainly got a sense of the theatrical. :greengrin


Does BO read Spanish? :cool2:

[hibsbollah]

Chavez:top marks

[erin-go-bragh87]

Very clever Senior Chavez!!:top marks

[Green Mikey]

Very clever Senior Chavez!!:top marks

Clever Chavez:confused::confused::confused:

Do people think he is clever because he pulls political stunts?

Have you seen what this man is doing to his county? He based his social spending and all his political objectives on oil being worth more than $100 per barrel. Now this isn't the case, Venezuela is in serious trouble, he gambled with the future of his country and it looks like he may lose. Clever indeed.....

[hibsbollah]

Clever Chavez:confused::confused::confused:

Do people think he is clever because he pulls political stunts?

Have you seen what this man is doing to his county? He based his social spending and all his political objectives on oil being worth more than $100 per barrel. Now this isn't the case, Venezuela is in serious trouble, he gambled with the future of his country and it looks like he may lose. Clever indeed.....


Not really, he managed to feed his people, unlike previous administrations that were basically in thrall to American multinationals. South Americas electors are voting in democratic left wing governments all over the place instead of the usual US-backed juntas, long may it continue:agree:

[Green Mikey]

Not really, he managed to feed his people, unlike previous administrations that were basically in thrall to American multinationals. South Americas electors are voting in democratic left wing governments all over the place instead of the usual US-backed juntas, long may it continue:agree:

Democratic left wing government? Where the President can alter the constition for his own gain. Where the state controls the media. Where there is a one party state. Left wing government is correct, to call it democratic is an abberation.

He has managed to feed his people by selling oil at high prices, now that has gone the state can no longer afford to support the country. He may no longer be in thrall to the USA....however he is in thrall to oil prices. He has swapped one master for another.

[hibsbollah]

Democratic left wing government? Where the President can alter the constition for his own gain. Where the state controls the media. Where there is a one party state. Left wing government is correct, to call it democratic is an abberation.

He has managed to feed his people by selling oil at high prices, now that has gone the state can no longer afford to support the country. He may no longer be in thrall to the USA....however he is in thrall to oil prices. He has swapped one master for another.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/country_profiles/1229345.stm
No, he asked for more extensive presedential powers, which the people narrowly rejected in a referendum. Do you think his CIA-supported predeccesors in government even bothered with elections, let alone referendums? There is a state-owned news channel, who broadly support Chavez and there are loads of privately owned news channels, who support the rich, land-owning opposition. This opposition staged a coup to topple him in 2002, which was defeated. He then won a subsequent election.

Fluctuations in Oil prices would affect any government of Venezuela, regardless of politics.

Are you sure you're thinking of the right place?

[_hucks_]

Democratic left wing government? Where the President can alter the constition for his own gain. Where the state controls the media. Where there is a one party state. Left wing government is correct, to call it democratic is an abberation.


COnstituational ammendments need to be passed by a refferendum. The state has a nationalised TV chanel, but there are many private ones as well. The elections are multi-party. All your claims are, frankly, wrong.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Democratic left wing government? Where the President can alter the constition for his own gain. Where the state controls the media. Where there is a one party state. Left wing government is correct, to call it democratic is an abberation.

Except that none of that is actually true, is it. Firstly, it isn't a one-party state at all - that's a ridiculous thing to say. As has been pointed out, the State does not run the media.

The only place you might have the semblance of a point is on the changing of the constitution, which are you referring to - '07 or '09? Because he lost in '07 (as hibsbollah has said) and I'm not sure it's possible to get very het-up about the removal of term-limits; which was the extent of the '09 referendum.


He has managed to feed his people by selling oil at high prices, now that has gone the state can no longer afford to support the country. He may no longer be in thrall to the USA....however he is in thrall to oil prices. He has swapped one master for another.

And there's an element of truth to that as well. But no more than that. I think it's incredibly easy to forget the extent to which the odds are stacked against Chavez and I don't think anyone will ever quite get to the bottom of the pernicious influence of the US in Latin America through the last hundred or so years - and still on-going; Evo Morales has suggested some American involvement in the recent assassination attempt against him, it wouldn't be the first time, eh? Everyone with an interest in this should read Open Veins..., it's fantastic. Oh, and Stephen Kinzer's Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change.

[erin-go-bragh87]

Just want to clarify that I wasnt making a political point when I called him clever, I have to confess to not knowing enough about the history of his leadership to judge, I was mearly pointing out that as single gestures go this one was quite clever.

[Green Mikey]

I may have exaggerated my claims against Chavez, however I do not see the merit in a man who continually looks to further his power and reign by attempting to change the constitution, democratically or not.

There may be independent TV channels, however State intervention in the media subverts the entire concept of democracy.





Fluctuations in Oil prices would affect any government of Venezuela, regardless of politics.

Are you sure you're thinking of the right place?

Venezuala is affected much more than other countries byoil price because its main export is oil!

How can Chavez sustain his political agenda without billions of oil dollars flowing into his country. To sustain a left wing agenda with half the money coming in willl be a difficult task, how do you propose he conquers this issue?

[LiverpoolHibs]

I may have exaggerated my claims against Chavez, however I do not see the merit in a man who continually looks to further his power and reign by attempting to change the constitution, democratically or not.

There may be independent TV channels, however State intervention in the media subverts the entire concept of democracy.

Again, which changes to the constitution are you talking about, '07 or '09?

Are you aware of the levels of antipathy towards Chavez from within the media prior to and after his coup, due to owners of the stations having a vested interest in him not gaining control? Would the idea of a completely politically partisan media in that respect not also 'subvert the entire concept of democracy'? Incidentally, I actually agree with you about the desirability of State-run (if not State-owned) media outlets.

This is an interesting transcript of Greg Grandin, a historian specialising in South America, talking about the state of the Venezuelan media.

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/9/21/chavez_calls_bush_the_devil_in

A few excerpts from it...

"Anybody who has any firsthand experience in Venezuela remarks on how free and open the press is. And the corporate media, the print media and the TV media is just chronically obsessed with Chavez and critical in a way that would be completely alien for most U.S. observers."

JUAN GONZALEZ: But now, hasn’t the Venezuelan government passed new laws that would indicate at least its ability to exercise a new restraint on the press?
GREG GRANDIN: Well, some of that legislation, social responsibility legislation, was passed after the 2002 coup, which was organized and encouraged and inflamed by the corporate media, by Gustavo Cisneros, the head of Venevision and other corporate media conglomerates.
AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean it was “encouraged” by?
GREG GRANDIN: Well, part of the kind of polarization and mounting campaign of destabilization was being played out on the private TV stations in the weeks leading up to the April coup. And then a number of them were linked directly to the coup plotters, both the journalists and the corporate backers of the corporate owners of the stations. This legislation has come—I mean, it’s two things. One, it hasn’t been enforced. Two, some of its defenders have said it’s no different than any kind of social responsibility legislation you would see in Germany, for instance, or Scandinavian countries.


Venezuala is affected much more than other countries byoil price because its main export is oil!

How can Chavez sustain his political agenda without billions of oil dollars flowing into his country. To sustain a left wing agenda with half the money coming in willl be a difficult task, how do you propose he conquers this issue?

As I understand it, much of his economic policy has been centred around an attempt to broaden the base of the Venezuelan economy.

[hibsbollah]

Venezuala is affected much more than other countries byoil price because its main export is oil!

How can Chavez sustain his political agenda without billions of oil dollars flowing into his country. To sustain a left wing agenda with half the money coming in willl be a difficult task, how do you propose he conquers this issue?

Its an interesting question, and one which 3rd world economies across the globe have to answer; when you are rich in raw materials and raw material prices are falling, how do you plug the gap? Its a problem for the whole 3rd world and I suspect he will try to create new markets elsewhere, sell to the Chinese, Indians whoever else. At least having nationalised the oil industry they are in control of their own destiny, instead of Enron/Shell/etc.

[Green Mikey]

Again, which changes to the constitution are you talking about, '07 or '09?

Are you aware of the levels of antipathy towards Chavez from within the media prior to and after his coup, due to owners of the stations having a vested interest in him not gaining control? Would the idea of a completely politically partisan media in that respect not also 'subvert the entire concept of democracy'? Incidentally, I actually agree with you about the desirability of State-run (if not State-owned) media outlets.

This is an interesting transcript of Greg Grandin, a historian specialising in South America, talking about the state of the Venezuelan media.

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/9/21/chavez_calls_bush_the_devil_in

A few excerpts from it...

"Anybody who has any firsthand experience in Venezuela remarks on how free and open the press is. And the corporate media, the print media and the TV media is just chronically obsessed with Chavez and critical in a way that would be completely alien for most U.S. observers."

JUAN GONZALEZ: But now, hasn’t the Venezuelan government passed new laws that would indicate at least its ability to exercise a new restraint on the press?
GREG GRANDIN: Well, some of that legislation, social responsibility legislation, was passed after the 2002 coup, which was organized and encouraged and inflamed by the corporate media, by Gustavo Cisneros, the head of Venevision and other corporate media conglomerates.[/I]
AMY GOODMAN: [I]What do you mean it was “encouraged” by?
GREG GRANDIN: Well, part of the kind of polarization and mounting campaign of destabilization was being played out on the private TV stations in the weeks leading up to the April coup. And then a number of them were linked directly to the coup plotters, both the journalists and the corporate backers of the corporate owners of the stations. This legislation has come—I mean, it’s two things. One, it hasn’t been enforced. Two, some of its defenders have said it’s no different than any kind of social responsibility legislation you would see in Germany, for instance, or Scandinavian countries.



As I understand it, much of his economic policy has been centred around an attempt to broaden the base of the Venezuelan economy.


Chavez attemps to restrain the press due to an attempted coup. Surely bringing the instigators of the coup to justice would be the solution to this problem. How would controlling the media stop a coup? Could the powers not be abused in the future?

You gloss over my question of how Chavez plans to continue running his country when oil prices are falling. His public spending policies are untenable when the price of oil falls below $100. Venezuala cannot afford to continue with current social spending where does this leave the Venezuala people. Surely, this is a great concern to any of his supporters and for the the political ideal he adheres to.

[Green Mikey]

Its an interesting question, and one which 3rd world economies across the globe have to answer; when you are rich in raw materials and raw material prices are falling, how do you plug the gap? Its a problem for the whole 3rd world and I suspect he will try to create new markets elsewhere, sell to the Chinese, Indians whoever else. At least having nationalised the oil industry they are in control of their own destiny, instead of Enron/Shell/etc.

The problem is that Chavez has been in control of Venezuala's destiny. By controlling the oil industry he been allowed to spend the profits from oil, but has not banked any of this for the future.

[hibsbollah]

The problem is that Chavez has been in control of Venezuala's destiny. By controlling the oil industry he been allowed to spend the profits from oil, but has not banked any of this for the future.

I doubt you're in a position to know the state of Venezuelas state finances:wink: I suspect a lot more of the wealth has been 'banked' than would be the case if the industry had not been nationalised.

[Green Mikey]

I doubt you're in a position to know the state of Venezuelas state finances:wink: I suspect a lot more of the wealth has been 'banked' than would be the case if the industry had not been nationalised.

Why do you doubt that I am in a position to know the about Venezuala's finances? I doubt you are in any position to know the relative benefits of state ownership versus private ownership in the oil sector and how 'wealth' is 'banked' by Venezuela.


Information on Venezuala finances can be obtained online and analysis into the the financial situation has been made in publications such as Newsweek. Ratings on the credit worthiness of countries and the rating of government bonds for each country can be found online.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Chavez attemps to restrain the press due to an attempted coup. Surely bringing the instigators of the coup to justice would be the solution to this problem. How would controlling the media stop a coup? Could the powers not be abused in the future?

Well, interestingly a few years ago the leading prosecuter of those involved in the Coup was assassinated. This allowed any number of them to escape the country into exile. Who 'da thunk it?! It's utterly systemic.

What you mean by 'controlling the media' bears no relevance to the actuality of the situation.


You gloss over my question of how Chavez plans to continue running his country when oil prices are falling. His public spending policies are untenable when the price of oil falls below $100. Venezuala cannot afford to continue with current social spending where does this leave the Venezuala people. Surely, this is a great concern to any of his supporters and for the the political ideal he adheres to.

I wouldn't say I glossed over it. What I said was true, but admittedly I don't know a huge amount about it. I don't think that's really surprising.

I've read a couple of things that bear out my point. He's attempted to increase production of iron ore, cole, diamonds, hydropower and gold. Hopefully he doesn't feel the pressure to hand over their running to the private sector. :wink:

I should probably point out that I don't think Chavez is in any way perfect, by the way.

[hibsdaft]

no matter anyones opinions of him its ridiculous to challenge his democratic credentials. his presidency has been subject to more referendums and elections in the last decade than any other democratic leader on the planet and that in the face of a mostly openly hostile media.

[RyeSloan]

Some interesting reading on Chavez and his thoughts on how to run a country:

Central Food Quotas (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/4938993/Venezuelas-Hugo-Chavez-tightens-state-control-of-food-amid-rocketing-inflation-and-food-shortages.html)

Attemps to silence critics (http://knightcenter.utexas.edu/blog/?q=node/1500)

Polictical control (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/venezuela/story/989461.html)


If you are a fan of central control and a president of a country deciding only he knows best in all areas then Chavez is your man...personally I find in him and his manipulation of the poor in his nation all that is wrong with Socialism.

He is great at political stunts and of course keeping himself in power but I find his constant blaming of everyone and everything else for his nations woes tiresome and has shades of Mugabe's constant blaming of imperial nations like Britain as he presided over the destruction of his economy and ultimately his people.

Inflation at 30 odd percent, central pricing of foodstuffs below cost price killing production, nationalised oil production falling...read this for a quick idea of just how 'clever' Chavez is

Oil / Food production slumps (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/3183417/Venezuelas-oil-output-slumps-under-Hugo-Chavez.html)

Vanezuela is a divided nation where a significant portion of the people do not support Chavez so no suprise to find division here but I'm sure Chavez will ensure he's around a while yet, mores the pity.

[Green Mikey]

Well, interestingly a few years ago the leading prosecuter of those involved in the Coup was assassinated. This allowed any number of them to escape the country into exile. Who 'da thunk it?! It's utterly systemic.

What you mean by 'controlling the media' bears no relevance to the actuality of the situation.



I wouldn't say I glossed over it. What I said was true, but admittedly I don't know a huge amount about it. I don't think that's really surprising.
I've read a couple of things that bear out my point. He's attempted to increase production of iron ore, cole, diamonds, hydropower and gold. Hopefully he doesn't feel the pressure to hand over their running to the private sector. :wink:

I should probably point out that I don't think Chavez is in any way perfect, by the way.

I do find it suprising that you don't know alot about the economic issues in Venezuala when you seem to be very knowledgable about the political situation in the country. Information on both aspects of Venezuala are readily available.

Chavez's ideals may appeal to many people however the manner in which he has chosen to deliver these ideals has the potential to permanently damage his people.

[passionatehibby]

I suggest watching the following documentary - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+revilution+will+not+be+televised&emb=0&aq=f#

This documentary was made by two independent film makers who were around Chavaz at the time of the attempted coup in 2002.

It brilliantly exposes Americas involvement in the attempt to topple Chavez. It's Gripping stuff,and something you wont see anywhere on mainstream media.

Just for the record, the Chavez regime does run one state owned channel, Probably similar to the BBC,and they are censured by the British government . Their are also various channels that are privately owned by big corporate media juggernauts who have there own agenda!

Watch this documentary and make your own mind up . I know who I support. :agree:


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolution_Will_Not_Be_Televised_%28documentar y)

[Betty Boop]

"The War on Democracy" by John Pilger, he explores the history of America's relationship with Venezuela, Bolivia and Chile.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18236.htm

[hibsbollah]

I suggest watching the following documentary - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+revilution+will+not+be+televised&emb=0&aq=f#

This documentary was made by two independent film makers who were around Chavaz at the time of the attempted coup in 2002.

It brilliantly exposes Americas involvement in the attempt to topple Chavez. It's Gripping stuff,and something you wont see anywhere on mainstream media.

Just for the record, the Chavez regime does run one state owned channel, Probably similar to the BBC,and they are censured by the British government . Their are also various channels that are privately owned by big corporate media juggernauts who have there own agenda!

Watch this documentary and make your own mind up . I know who I support. :agree:


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolution_Will_Not_Be_Televised_%28documentar y)

It was clearly anti-Chavez protestors that shot the demonstrator on the bridge, the footage shows that. A few days later though, the world media is full of stories about 'police brutality in Venezeula':rolleyes: Just shows what good genuinely independent journalists can do to get to the truth:agree: