Hillsborough Memorial

[Landells]

20th anniversary

Skysports news 2:40 - 3:40

[Gatecrasher]

cheers i was just looking for that :thumbsup:

can you watch ssn online??

[Landells]

cheers i was just looking for that :thumbsup:

No probs :wink:

[Gatecrasher]

just found it on liverpool.tv

[Betty Boop]

Very moving service with the choirs rendition of YNWA, and the words from King Kenny brought a tear to my eye. :boo hoo:

[RoslinInstHibby]

just found it on liverpool.tv

its also on the bbc website

[Betty Boop]

Andy Burnham getting a rousing reception. :rolleyes:

[Gatecrasher]

Andy Burnham getting a rousing reception. :rolleyes:


i thought they gave him a bit of a hard time, i thought his speach was good and was clearly touched by what happened. In saying that i understand why he was given that reception as well

[Hibbie_Cameron]

i thought they gave him a bit of a hard time, i thought his speach was good and was clearly touched by what happened. In saying that i understand why he was given that reception as well

I agree with you, thought his speach was quite good

[Danderhall Hibs]

i thought they gave him a bit of a hard time, i thought his speach was good and was clearly touched by what happened. In saying that i understand why he was given that reception as well

Who is he? What did he do to upset them?

[Landells]

I'v missed most of it took dog to vet

Iv been in that stand! :greengrin

[Landells]

accepted full responsibile for it!!

[Betty Boop]

Who is he? What did he do to upset them?
The Minister of Culture and Sport representing the Government, he got quite a bit of baracking.

[Danderhall Hibs]

The Minister of Culture and Sport representing the Government, he got quite a bit of baracking.

Why? Just because he's in Government or because he actually done something to deserve it?

[Landells]

I cant hear him :grr:

[Betty Boop]

Why? Just because he's in Government or because he actually done something to deserve it? Don't know, couldn't make out what they were shouting, but there seemed to be quite a lot of anger.

[Landells]

Why do they dispise the sun newspaper?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Why do they dispise the sun newspaper?

http://cm1.theinsider.com/media/0/28/14/Hillsborough_disaster_Sun.0.0.0x0.350x403.jpeg

[Landells]

http://cm1.theinsider.com/media/0/28/14/Hillsborough_disaster_Sun.0.0.0x0.350x403.jpeg

Wow!

[Danderhall Hibs]

Why do they dispise the sun newspaper?

They said that the Liverpool fans were pick-pocketing the dead and printed photos off it.

[Hibbie_Cameron]

Why do they dispise the sun newspaper?

You cant even give away a copy of that paper in the city

[Landells]

ynwa

[Betty Boop]

ynwa
A great anthem! :agree: When did Celtic hijack it?

[Landells]

Did you know john paul gahooley one of the 96 was gerrards cousin?

aged 10

[Hibbie_Cameron]

Well that was a simply wonderful service. Im about the furthest thing away from being a liverpool fan but on days like this that matters not one jot

Rip 96

[Landells]

Lifes so young!

[Landells]

Heres a pic of when i went to Liverpool game...

Pic 1 (http://file046a.bebo.com/20/large/2009/03/23/16/4977579a10409960088l.jpg)

[Danderhall Hibs]

Well that was a simply wonderful service. Im about the furthest thing away from being a liverpool fan but on days like this that matters not one jot

Rip 96

I've not seen it yet but it sounds like they brought the tone of it down a bit by barracking a Government minister?

[Landells]

Here another (http://file046a.bebo.com/15/large/2009/04/15/15/4977579a10606798354l.jpg)

[Betty Boop]

I've not seen it yet but it sounds like they brought the tone of it down a bit by barracking a Government minister? Emotions will be running high today, from what I gather from Sky news, most of the families feel they have never had justice and would like the Police to be held to account. Not too difficult to understand :dunno:

[Danderhall Hibs]

Emotions will be running high today, from what I gather from Sky news, most of the families feel they have never had justice and would like the Police to be held to account. Not too difficult to understand :dunno:

I understand emotions will be high but what would the Minister for Sport be able to do about it? Is it not the Home Secretary that's in charge of the police?

Seems slightly disrespectful (although I admit I've not seen it yet).

[Danny_Hibee]

I understand emotions will be high but what would the Minister for Sport be able to do about it? Is it not the Home Secretary that's in charge of the police?

Seems slightly disrespectful (although I admit I've not seen it yet).

Don't think it was really him that was getting abuse. I'm sure it was mainly when he mentioned the government/PM that they got a bit restless.

[Arch Stanton]

Don't think it was really him that was getting abuse. I'm sure it was mainly when he mentioned the government/PM that they got a bit restless.

I actually thought the grilling he got from Jon Snow on the Channel 4 news was worse - although it's probably just what TV interviewers do these days.

I really can't see how justice can be done here - there are as many guilty parties as there were for the killing of Davey Moore (Dylan song - http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/b/bob_dylan/who_killed_davey_moore.html ) -
the people who built the fences,
the people who worked out the ground allocation for the two teams
the people who allowed old-style terracing to be regularly filled with overlarge crowds
the people who allowed primitive crowd counting methods throiugh the turnstyles
the people who ignored the plight of their fellow human beings and kept the fences closed
the people who turned up intoxicated and tried to push their way into the ground
the people who opened the gates to let the crowd in fearing for loss of life as they did

[Greentinted]

Slight deviation but if anybody is interested ITV 3 is repeating Jimmy McGovern's dramatisation of the Hillsborough disaster at 9pm tonight.

[Hibby D]

Just watching this again - it's been several years since I last watched it and to my shame it's made me realise just how much I'd forgotten about what went on.

The coroners inquest which completely ignored the Taylor report and led to statements being made about the crowd being ticketless, drunken yobs :bitchy:

And the police officers who stood by and refused to help by opening gates.

Yeah it was nothing to do with the wrong decisions made by South Yorkshire Police right enough.

And the Sun - I defy anyone to justify why they still pay to read that rag!!!
Justice for the 96

YNWA

[LiverpoolHibs]

Just watching this again - it's been several years since I last watched it and to my shame it's made me realise just how much I'd forgotten about what went on.

The coroners inquest which completely ignored the Taylor report and led to statements being made about the crowd being ticketless, drunken yobs :bitchy:

And the police officers who stood by and refused to help by opening gates.

Yeah it was nothing to do with the wrong decisions made by South Yorkshire Police right enough.

And the Sun - I defy anyone to justify why they still pay to read that rag!!!
Justice for the 96

YNWA

Likewise. I sincerely hope Kelvin MacKenzie meets a very sticky end indeed.

As if their Hillsborough headline wasn't enough for any right-thinking person...

http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/front%20page/gotcha-lg.jpg

Disgusting Tory *******s.

[GhostofBolivar]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/i-was-a-witness-to-the-needless-death-of-96-football-fans-the-memory-still-sickens-me-1668852.html

[Steve-O]

And the Sun - I defy anyone to justify why they still pay to read that rag!!!
Justice for the 96

YNWA


Likewise. I sincerely hope Kelvin MacKenzie meets a very sticky end indeed.

As if their Hillsborough headline wasn't enough for any right-thinking person...

http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/front%20page/gotcha-lg.jpg

Disgusting Tory *******s.

To be fair, both instances quoted occured under MacKenzie's stewardship and since he no longer works there, I don't really equate the two these days.

Additionally, other newspapers reported the same allegations as the Sun but these are often forgotten simply because of the way The Sun sensationalised it that little bit more.

Basically, while the Sun is hardly a bastion of quality journalism, I wouldn't boycott a paper because their former editor is a total erse.

[marinello59]

I understand emotions will be high but what would the Minister for Sport be able to do about it? Is it not the Home Secretary that's in charge of the police?

Seems slightly disrespectful (although I admit I've not seen it yet).

He was there as a representative of the Government so was a valid target. Given the lack of respect shown to football supporters as a group over the years he got off lightly IMHO. If these deaths had occured amongst any other large group of people somebody would have, (quite rightly), been held to account well before now.

[Danderhall Hibs]

He was there as a representative of the Government so was a valid target. Given the lack of respect shown to football supporters as a group over the years he got off lightly IMHO. If these deaths had occured amongst any other large group of people somebody would have, (quite rightly), been held to account well before now.

I just thought there might've been a better time and place to show their anger. It was supposed to be a memorial service not a demonstration/protest.

The guy that organised the service agrees with that as well.

[marinello59]

I just thought there might've been a better time and place to show their anger. It was supposed to be a memorial service not a demonstration/protest.

The guy that organised the service agrees with that as well.

I understand your thinking on this. But it was a very emotional event, that mix of grief and anger was bound to come out somehow. It didn't come across as personally abusing the Minister at all, just a plea for justice.
So I agree it may be seen as irreverent but it is possibly the best way to get any sort of message over to todays politicians.
Justice for the 96.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I understand your thinking on this. But it was a very emotional event, that mix of grief and anger was bound to come out somehow. It didn't come across as personally abusing the Minister at all, just a plea for justice.
So I agree it may be seen as irreverent but it is possibly the best way to get any sort of message over to todays politicians.
Justice for the 96.

Hopefully they get what they want from it. What is the justice they want anyway? Is it for the Head of Police that day to get the jail?

Apparently the Culture Minister asked to speak even though they all knew they (and told him) he would be interrupted. Hopefully he went through with it to show the proper powers that be that the feelings are still strong about it.

[Steve-O]

Hopefully they get what they want from it. What is the justice they want anyway? Is it for the Head of Police that day to get the jail?

Apparently the Culture Minister asked to speak even though they all knew they (and told him) he would be interrupted. Hopefully he went through with it to show the proper powers that be that the feelings are still strong about it.

They want someone to be held accountable - nobody has even paid with their job for the incompetence that led to events that day, never mind a criminal conviction.

There is also apparently evidence that has been covered up etc etc. Read the Wikipedia page (among others), it's interesting stuff :agree:

[LiverpoolHibs]

To be fair, both instances quoted occured under MacKenzie's stewardship and since he no longer works there, I don't really equate the two these days.

Additionally, other newspapers reported the same allegations as the Sun but these are often forgotten simply because of the way The Sun sensationalised it that little bit more.

Basically, while the Sun is hardly a bastion of quality journalism, I wouldn't boycott a paper because their former editor is a total erse.

Except that the paper is still owned by Rupert Murdoch who gave MacKenzie free reign to publish his *****, continued to employ Mackenzie in his other companies after he left the Sun and later employed him as a columnist in the same paper; even after MacKenzie stated the apology he had been forced into making was not heartfelt. And, let's be honest, the Sun's 'apology' was motivated by nothing other than a desire to revive sales on Merseyside.

The Hillsborough and General Belgrano headlines are really the thin end of the wedge for that rag. Lies, xenophobia and outright racism, the most anti-working class newspaper in existence masquerading as the opposite, attempts (sucessful or otherwise depending on your analysis) to pervert the political process. Murdoch and News International are alot more influential and dangerous than MacKenzie could ever hope to be.

[bawheid]

Except that the paper is still owned by Rupert Murdoch who gave MacKenzie free reign to publish his *****, continued to employ Mackenzie in his other companies after he left the Sun and later employed him as a columnist in the same paper; even after MacKenzie stated the apology he had been forced into making was not heartfelt. And, let's be honest, the Sun's 'apology' was motivated by nothing other than a desire to revive sales on Merseyside.

The Hillsborough and General Belgrano headlines are really the thin end of the wedge for that rag. Lies, xenophobia and outright racism, the most anti-working class newspaper in existence masquerading as the opposite, attempts (sucessful or otherwise depending on your analysis) to pervert the political process. Murdoch and News International are alot more influential and dangerous than MacKenzie could ever hope to be.

Kelvin MacKenzie is a disgusting individual. Not long ago he appeared on Question Time, where the English audience jeered him for his racist, anti-Scottish rantings.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7041128.stm

I wrote to the BBC at the time and asked them why they chose to invite such an odious individual on to prime time television, given his track record with Hillsborough and the Falklands. Their response was that he provokes debate which was good for the show.

[Steve-O]

Except that the paper is still owned by Rupert Murdoch who gave MacKenzie free reign to publish his *****, continued to employ Mackenzie in his other companies after he left the Sun and later employed him as a columnist in the same paper; even after MacKenzie stated the apology he had been forced into making was not heartfelt. And, let's be honest, the Sun's 'apology' was motivated by nothing other than a desire to revive sales on Merseyside.

The Hillsborough and General Belgrano headlines are really the thin end of the wedge for that rag. Lies, xenophobia and outright racism, the most anti-working class newspaper in existence masquerading as the opposite, attempts (sucessful or otherwise depending on your analysis) to pervert the political process. Murdoch and News International are alot more influential and dangerous than MacKenzie could ever hope to be.

Fair enough, however Murdoch did force MacKenzie to apologise, although this turned out to be hollow when MacKenzie admitted he wouldn't have done so had it not been for Murdoch.

As for the Sun's apology, surely it's a no win situation - if they don't apologise, they still don't care and believe in what was printed, if they do apologise it's just a publicity stunt?

It no longer carries the influence it did back in the 80's either.

[Jonnyboy]

It's about accountability IMO. 96 people died because of the actions of other individuals and in a just world those individuals should be held accountable for their actions

[Betty Boop]

I was shocked to read that 14 police officers received between them £1.2 million in damages, while the relatives of the victims got nothing. That can't be right surely! :confused:

[Hibbie_Cameron]

I was shocked to read that 14 police officers received between them £1.2 million in damages, while the relatives of the victims got nothing. That can't be right surely! :confused:

Would certainly help ease their guilt i suppose

[Chez]

They want someone to be held accountable - nobody has even paid with their job for the incompetence that led to events that day, never mind a criminal conviction.

There is also apparently evidence that has been covered up etc etc. Read the Wikipedia page (among others), it's interesting stuff :agree:


It's about accountability IMO. 96 people died because of the actions of other individuals and in a just world those individuals should be held accountable for their actions

:agree: My cousin's best mate died in the Hillsborough disaster and he went to the service himself. He and most other relatives/friends of the people who died that day want to see those, whose actions/lack of actions that day, start to take responsibility for failing to be proactive that day and preventing the over-crowding in the first place, and they are looking for assurance from said people that this will not happen again - all measures are in place to ensure prevention is the aim for the future.

[--------]

The PRIMARY cause of the Hillsborough disaster - in the sense that ALL other causes were secondary - was gross incompetence on the part of South Yorkshire Police.

They could have saved the situation by delaying the kick-off, but they didn't.

They should have been exercising effective supervision of the fans from a lot farther away from the stadium than they did - they just let those people walk into a bottleneck as the crush built up to lethal proportions. But they didn't.

They should have examined the layout of the enclosure, and realised that it wAS badly designed and potentially lethal. But they didn't.

They should have had police or stewards at the gates of the trackside fences, so that the people could escape onto the pitch (the obvious place) - but they didn't.

They should have had adequate medical and first-aid provision IN the stadium, not outside it. But they didn't.

They should have appointed an experienced, competent senior officer as Match Commander for such an important game, but they didn't. Duckenfield was neither experienced nor competent, and he personally bears a huge responsibility for the deaths of those people.

And they shouldn't have told black lies about the dead and those who tried to help them, to cover their own guilty backs. But they did.

Reliable witnesses have testified that there was little or no drunkenness among the crowd trapped in the approaches to the Leppins Lane turnstiles. That IMO is a lie put about by the police to excuse themselves and their own complacency and incompetence.

But football fans weren't seen as 'paying customers' in those days. We were seen as the mugs who would turn up, match day by match day, regardless of the weather, regardless of the state of the stadium, regardless of the quality of the football on offer, to pay our money and keep our traps shut.

And because some of us behaved like hooligans (2%, 3%, 4%?) the poolice treated us ALL (100%) as hooligans and troublemakers.

And lots and lots of people - in government, in football, in the press, in society at large - truly didn't give even a small one that 96 people died that afternoon.

And many STILL don't really care, and never will.

[KdyHby]

Likewise. I sincerely hope Kelvin MacKenzie meets a very sticky end indeed.

As if their Hillsborough headline wasn't enough for any right-thinking person...

http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/front%20page/gotcha-lg.jpg

Disgusting Tory *******s.

As with the Evening News reports of the 2 Hibs fans going to Belgium, didn't read the rag for years after that.

RIP George

[steviehfc]

The PRIMARY cause of the Hillsborough disaster - in the sense that ALL other causes were secondary - was gross incompetence on the part of South Yorkshire Police.

They could have saved the situation by delaying the kick-off, but they didn't.

They should have been exercising effective supervision of the fans from a lot farther away from the stadium than they did - they just let those people walk into a bottleneck as the crush built up to lethal proportions. But they didn't.

They should have examined the layout of the enclosure, and realised that it wAS badly designed and potentially lethal. But they didn't.

They should have had police or stewards at the gates of the trackside fences, so that the people could escape onto the pitch (the obvious place) - but they didn't.

They should have had adequate medical and first-aid provision IN the stadium, not outside it. But they didn't.

They should have appointed an experienced, competent senior officer as Match Commander for such an important game, but they didn't. Duckenfield was neither experienced nor competent, and he personally bears a huge responsibility for the deaths of those people.

And they shouldn't have told black lies about the dead and those who tried to help them, to cover their own guilty backs. But they did.

Reliable witnesses have testified that there was little or no drunkenness among the crowd trapped in the approaches to the Leppins Lane turnstiles. That IMO is a lie put about by the police to excuse themselves and their own complacency and incompetence.

But football fans weren't seen as 'paying customers' in those days. We were seen as the mugs who would turn up, match day by match day, regardless of the weather, regardless of the state of the stadium, regardless of the quality of the football on offer, to pay our money and keep our traps shut.

And because some of us behaved like hooligans (2%, 3%, 4%?) the poolice treated us ALL (100%) as hooligans and troublemakers.

And lots and lots of people - in government, in football, in the press, in society at large - truly didn't give even a small one that 96 people died that afternoon.

And many STILL don't really care, and never will.:top marks :agree: Justice For The 96

[Hibrandenburg]

There were many factors and people to blame for the terrible events that happened on that day and most of them have beeen mentioned on this thread already. However some of the Liverpool fans themselves must also carry the can for what happened.

[hibsdaft]

There were many factors and people to blame for the terrible events that happened on that day and most of them have beeen mentioned on this thread already. However some of the Liverpool fans themselves must also carry the can for what happened.

why exactly?

[--------]

There were many factors and people to blame for the terrible events that happened on that day and most of them have beeen mentioned on this thread already. However some of the Liverpool fans themselves must also carry the can for what happened.


In what way, exactly?

[Danderhall Hibs]

In what way, exactly?

Didn't they pile in without tickets?

Edit: Although this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster)says different...


Other aggravating factors
There were accusations that the behaviour of the Liverpool fans contributed to the disaster. These centred around consumption of alcohol before the game and attempts to enter the ground without a ticket. Although Lord Taylor acknowledged that these aggravated the situation, they were only secondary factors.

Witness estimates of the number of fans that were drunk varied from a minority to a large proportion of the crowd. Although it was clear that many fans had been drinking, Lord Taylor stated that most of them "were not drunk nor even the worse for drink". He concluded that they only formed an exacerbating factor.

The possibility of fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forgeries contributing to the disaster was also suggested. South Yorkshire Police also suggested that the late arrival of fans amounted to a conspiracy in order to gain entry without tickets. However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis and eye witness accounts showed that the total number of people who had already entered the Leppings Lane End was far below the capacity of the stand. Additionally, eye witness reports suggested that tickets were easily available on the day of the game, and that tickets for the Leppings Lane End were still on sale from Anfield until the day before the game. The report dismissed the conspiracy theory.

[hibsdaft]

very good site for information:

http://www.hfdinfo.com/


Supporters who had passed through the turnstiles were left to find their own way to the terraces. The option of filling the five pens successively had been rejected by senior officers. Earlier in the day, Superintendent Bernard Murray told Chief Inspector Creaser that supporters should be left to “find their own level”. With no direction, supporters found that the “obvious” 7 route to the terrace was via a tunnel. Above the tunnel entrance was the word ‘standing’.

Most standing supporters presumed this was the only route to the terrace. Many were unaware that there were two other points of access. There were “no conspicuous signs” 7 to invite supporters to take the alternative routes. Supporters were “drawn to the tunnel”,7 which led to only two of the five available pens – the central pens.

The official combined capacity figure for the central pens was 2,200. Later the Health & Safety Executive (HSE) found that figure was too high. The combined capacity figure should have been reduced to 1,600, as the crush barriers installed did not conform to paragraph 142 in ‘The Guide to Safety at Sport 1986.’

SYP “hoped” 9 that even distribution would be achieved, instead of taking action to guarantee it. They reasoned that, by leaving all pens open, the
supporters would eventually level themselves out. Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, the officer in overall charge that day, assumed any supporters finding the central pens too crowded would be able “to turn around and walk out”.10 In theory, those fans would then fill up the emptier pens and distribution would be achieved.

There was, however, only one way for fans to exit the central pens and that was to go back through, against the flow of incoming supporters, the same
access tunnel which was 40ft in length, dark and had a slope steeper than the ‘Green Guide’ stipulated.

[hibsdaft]

The option to leave was made more difficult when a police tannoy
announcement requested that supporters in the central pens should move
forward so as to make room for others. By 2:30pm the option was completely
gone, as many supporters within the pens and in the tunnel itself had lost
voluntary control of their direction.

At this point, Duckenfield noted that the central pens were “getting on for
being quite full”. Still, no order was given to direct supporters to the emptier pens.
At the subsequent public inquiry, the SYP argued that, although it
was common practice to monitor and close access to pens at league matches,
at FA Cup semi-finals the pens were left open.


That argument can be rejected easily due to the fact SYP monitored, closed
access to, and “successfully” 13 distributed supporters across the terraces at
the ‘88 semi-final. Mr Lock, SWFC’s Security Officer and a former policeman,
said, “It would have been quite easy to close the centre pens to ensure people were moved to the side pens.”

Duckenfield admitted that following this procedure was something that
“didn’t cross his mind.” 14 He had only been appointed 21 days before the
match, had no recent experience in policing such a high profile match and
the procedure had not featured in the previous year’s planning.
As a result, numbers in the central pens continued to swell, whilst the wing
pens remained relatively empty. BBC match commentator, John Motson,
noticed the disparity in the pens and made reference to the lack of fans in
the wing areas. Unbeknown to him, there were a substantial number of fans
still outside, awaiting admittance..

[hibsdaft]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOFhqfOX7Xg

not the smoothest youtube video ever, but it gets over most of the important facts including the Sheff Wed count of the number who entered the Leppings Lane End that day - less than the 10,100 capacity (police incompetence led far far too many into the central pens where the crushing then took place).

[--------]

Didn't they pile in without tickets?

Edit: Although this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster)says different...


Quoting myself: " They should have been exercising effective supervision of the fans from a lot farther away from the stadium than they did - they just let those people walk into a bottleneck as the crush built up to lethal proportions. But they didn't."

As I understand it (I'm open to correction here) the layout of the approach to the Leppings Lane turnstiles was such that fans who were still some distance from the turnstiles couldn't see and weren't aware of what was happening in the relatively small concourse in front of them. So they kept on coming, unaware that they were heading into a very confined space totally inadequate to accommodate the numbers of fans building up there. They weren't drunk, and they weren't stupid - they just didn't realise what was happening up ahead of them.

Police officers (who SHOULD have known what was going on) were actually hurrying these fans along to get into the ground before the kick-off, themselves unaware of the growing problems in front of the turnstiles. This was a gross failure of communications, and entirely the responsibility of the Match Commander.

The turnstiles themselves were few in number, old, and not in good repair. They were slow to operate, and were inadequate to cope with the growing numbers of supporters filling the approaches to that end of the ground.

Almost without exception the ONLY witnesses at the inquiry to allege drunkenness and unruly behaviour on the part of the fans were POLICEMEN (who were themselves in a very real sense on trial). No surprise thee, then.

I seriously urge you to get hold of Phil Scraton's book "Hillsborough - The Truth", and the very detailed account of the various inquiries, the inquest, and the media coverage of the disaster entitled "No Last Rights", authored by Phil Scraton, Ann Jemphrey, and Sheila Coleman.

They've been around for a while, but they give a very clear account of the events of that day and the aftermath.

Apart from the scurrilous accusations of the tabloid press, a major factor in confirming the idea in people's minds that the fans were drunk was the order issued by the Sheffield coroner that ALL the deceased should have blood-tests done to determine blood-alcohol levels.

(He even ordered these tests to be carried out on the body of Jon-Paul Gilhooley, who was only 10 years old.)

This is NOT normal procedure, but it was leaked to the press and led to the two assumptions (which were enthusiastically encouraged by South Yorkshire Police) - first that the fans who died died because they were either incapably drunk or behaving violently through drink, and second that the fans outside the ground were an unruly drunken mob who forced their way into the ground by breaking down the exit gates. Neither of these allegations were true.

Kenny Dalglish said it on TV earlier this week - it is almost entirely certain that the whole catastrophe could have been avoided by delaying the kick-off to allow the fans adequate time to enter the ground in good order.

This isn't rocket science, but it was clearly well beyond the intellectual capability of Superintendant Duckenfield to understand.

And I've said it a few times on this board - if Lothian and Borders Police had had the running of that match, and had run it they way they used to run big European matches, derbies, and OF games in Edinburgh in the days of standing terraces and 35,000-40,000 crowds, no one would have died.

[Sir David Gray]

I just thought there might've been a better time and place to show their anger. It was supposed to be a memorial service not a demonstration/protest.

The guy that organised the service agrees with that as well.

:agree: That is almost exactly the same point that I made as I watched it yesterday.

I fully appreciate their anger and their wish to seek justice, for their loved ones who died that day. However, it was supposed to be a memorial service to mark the 20th anniversary, there are plenty other opportunities to make protests and demand a full investigation etc.

Perhaps it was unwise to invite a member of the Government to speak at such an event but once he was invited, I think he should have been allowed to say his piece.

I hope they eventually get the justice, that they undoubtedly deserve, but I do think they went the wrong way about it.

[hibsdaft]

I fully appreciate their anger and their wish to seek justice, for their loved ones who died that day.

quite clearly you don't.

[marinello59]

:agree: That is almost exactly the same point that I made as I watched it yesterday.

I fully appreciate their anger and their wish to seek justice, for their loved ones who died that day. However, it was supposed to be a memorial service to mark the 20th anniversary, there are plenty other opportunities to make protests and demand a full investigation etc.

Perhaps it was unwise to invite a member of the Government to speak at such an event but once he was invited, I think he should have been allowed to say his piece.

I hope they eventually get the justice, that they undoubtedly deserve, but I do think they went the wrong way about it.

They have waited twenty years for the Government to do more than pay lip service to them. Why shouldn't they take every opportunity to make their voices heard?

[hibsdaft]

including for twelve of those years, a Labour government that never fulfilled their pre-1997 promise of a full public inquiry. (And which Mr Burnham is a representative of).

[Gatecrasher]

They have waited twenty years for the Government to do more than pay lip service to them. Why shouldn't they take every opportunity to make their voices heard?


:top marks

its way past waiting for the right time to protest, what happened on that day was horrific and could have easily been avoided with half a brain. i thought the guys speech was a good one and the chants were not against him and he clearly was touched by what happened on that day, but the point needed to be made and he was the man to make the point to.

this has gone on for way to long, such a high profile campaign not to be heard after such a long time is shocking, as mentioned already the goverment promised answers and no doubt the got votes on merseyside because of that promise and was clearly broken with a half arsed review

[Sir David Gray]

They have waited twenty years for the Government to do more than pay lip service to them. Why shouldn't they take every opportunity to make their voices heard?

Because I just think yesterday should have been purely about remembering the victims. There is a time and a place for making protests and demonstrations and I just don't believe it was appropriate to make that kind of point during a memorial service.

I know that tensions still run high amongst many Liverpool fans, when it comes to Hillsborough (that is totally understandable) and I certainly don't blame anyone for any outburst during the speech. I just think it could have been handled a bit better, that is all.

As I said, it was probably ill-advised to invite a member of the Government to speak at the event, in the first place.

[hibsdaft]

Because I just think yesterday should have been purely about remembering the victims. There is a time and a place for making protests and demonstrations and I just don't believe it was appropriate to make that kind of point during a memorial service.

its not really for you or I to decide that tbh.

[Danderhall Hibs]

its not really for you or I to decide that tbh.

On a different note and following on from the Jade saga of a few weeks ago does the attendance at the service not speak volumes about the way our country is now – 10000 turned up for the 10 year anniversary in 1999 but nearly 3 times that turned up on Wednesday!

Don’t get me wrong it’s good they don’t forget – but where were they all 10 years ago?

[Steve-O]

Because I just think yesterday should have been purely about remembering the victims. There is a time and a place for making protests and demonstrations and I just don't believe it was appropriate to make that kind of point during a memorial service.

I know that tensions still run high amongst many Liverpool fans, when it comes to Hillsborough (that is totally understandable) and I certainly don't blame anyone for any outburst during the speech. I just think it could have been handled a bit better, that is all.

As I said, it was probably ill-advised to invite a member of the Government to speak at the event, in the first place.

But the protesters are families of those very victims :confused:

[Danderhall Hibs]

But the protesters are families of those very victims :confused:

Not all of the 30000 were family, surely?

[hibsdaft]

400 injured that day remember, many for life - it ruined so many lives. thousands were there and psychologically affected that day, standing trapped next to your dead brother's corpse for twenty minutes does that to you.

reason why there were so many there at Anfield this week is more to do with things on the ground down there and also imo the nature of the stop-start campaign for justice. ten years ago the campaign was a low ebb after Labour bottled it on their promise of a full inquiry, now there seems to be momentum building again and that feeds in with the memorial as Hillsborough is high on peoples minds. all those thousands will know someone who died or was injured at Hillsbourough, and many of them will have been there that day and personally involved in the tragedy. to compare them to those who didn't know Jade but mourned her is unfair imo.

[Gatecrasher]

well the message got through to him http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2009/04/16/cabinet-to-debate-hillsborough-secret-files-100252-23399675/

[Hibrandenburg]

why exactly?


In what way, exactly?

Many of the fans turned up late at the gates and many of them without tickets. Although I agree that it was the Police who were mainly at fault, some of the blame has to be put at the door of those fans who tried to take advantage of getting free entry when the extra gate was opened and surged forward.

The police may have built the death trap but at the end of the day it was not them doing the pushing.

[hibsdaft]

..........

all of these lies were refuted by the Taylor report.

there was no evidence of ticketless fans and fewer fans entered than there were tickets sold.

there was no rush forward, this is shown on the tapes (the ones which didn't 'disappear').

you should read the content at the link i posted earlier, what you're saying is seriously wrong.

[Marabou Stork]

At risk of stirring up an almighty s**tstorm, what exactly is the justice that is constantly being brought up?

Blame?

[JimBHibees]

At risk of stirring up an almighty s**tstorm, what exactly is the justice that is constantly being brought up?

Blame?

Someone being held accountable for 96 innocents dying because of total incompetence made worse by the lies perpetuated afterwards. The main policeman accountable was allowed to resign with full pension. Usual cover up.

[LFC Fan]

Hi guys, Liverpool fan here. I was searching for an article that was published this week and came across this forum and thought I'd stop by.

Thanks for the messages of support and it's refreshing to see fans of another club stand up and speak the truth. I've always found Scottish supporters to have a far better understanding of Hillsborough than other English fans. I think this is in part down to the way the disaster was covered down here, particulalry by the S*n. But also because of the impact of Heysel and the way it changed people's perceptions. I can't offer any defence for Heysel but Liverpool fans are still held responsible for many clubs missing out on a place in Europe - despite many of these clubs having had a far bigger hooligan problem than Liverpool at the time. But we carry on fighting for the truth to be known.

I thought I'd answer a few questions and give you a Liverpool fans point of view on a few things:

The S*n/Kelvin MacKenzie

The S*n is still boycotted for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. It is true that other papers printed the same lies at the time. However, those that did also retracted them and apologised only a couple of days after printing them. The S*n also used the words "The truth" and were much more emphatic in how they reported them. In addition, MacKenize has never shown any remose for what was printed. Instead, he's revelled in it and made a career out of appearing controversial. And not only did he write that, but he stooped even lower:

Shortly after the disaster Joan Traynor, who lost two sons, was asked by ITN for permission to film the funeral of her sons. Traynor refused and publicly requested that the media respect her family's privacy with regard to the funeral. ITN and all other British media outlets did indeed respect Mrs Traynor's wishes with the exception of The Sun. Kelvin MacKenzie sent a photographer who clambered over a wall at the cemetery and took numerous photographs of the family laying the two boys to rest before eventually being chased away. The following day photographs of the family at the funeral appeared on the front page of The Sun. Mrs Traynor was said to be deeply upset about the intrusion at the funeral and the subsequent publication of photographs of her and her family on the front page of the same paper which had printing the aforementioned allegations about the disaster itself.

As for the S*n's half hearted apology, too little too late I'm afraid. Though nothing they could do would ever make me want to read it anyway, even if they hadn't covered Hillsborough in the way they did.

Andy Burnham and the Government

I agree to some extent that Wednesday wasn't the time or the place for that sort of protest. But emotions were running high, and people had every right to be angry when the Government had sent a puppet to offer platitudes and patronising comments, and when else can 30,000 people protest directly against a representitive of the Government? Burnham was in a no win situation really, but I think the Government may as well have not sent anyone as I couldn't see it ever doing any good.

In addition, it's not just the friends of families of the victims who protest. The victims aren't just those who died. Thousands of people were scarred for life over what happened, and being a Liverpool fan you obviously read up a lot about Hillsborough and it makes people angry and frustrated that people have yet to be given any form of closure.

Justice

It is often asked what people want, but it isn't as black and white as people wanting individuals to be held accountable. Duckenfield, who was the officer in charge that day was taken to court on manslaughter charges but the jury failed to a reach a verdict and the judge refused a retrial. I think many people accept that individuals won't be held accountable now, that doesn't make it right but it's the sad reality.

But it goes deeper than that. The first official inquiry declared a cut off time of 3:15pm for those who died. i.e The official verdict was that all those who died on the day (One fan died years later after being in a coma) were dead before 3:15pm. But there is evidence uncovered by the families than some fans were alive way beyond this time. One fan, Kevin Williams, even asked for his Mum at 4:00pm.

After this cut off point nobody knows exactly what happened as the Government have never opened up an inquiry into how things were dealt with. Why were ambulances turned away from the ground? Would many of these fans have survived if they were given medical treatment?

And so much evidence has been hidden, CCTV tapes have mysteriously gone missing, witness statements were used selectively and the views of people like the only ambulance paramedic who was allowed on to the pitch to help out have been totaly ignored. Because he arrived on the scene after 3:15pm he effectively doesn't exist in the eyes of the initial inquiry.

So the main thing people want is a full public inquiry into what happened. People want answers and the families of those who died want closure.

In addition, there are still so many myths flying around and rumours that have been repeated so often that they've almost become facts. The ticketless fans who stormed the gates line is mentioned everytime this discussion pops up - and I'm pleased to see it's been dispelled on this thread. And we just want people to know the truth. It's hard to let go and totally move on when there are still so many inaccuracies flying about.

Once you start looking at what really happened it's next to impossible to let it go as the truth is so frustrating. Reading the Taylor report and a book by Phil Scraton called "Hillsborough: The Truth" can only make you angry that so much has been covered up.


Anyway, I like the look of this site. I had a look around whilst I was waiting for my account to be verified and it reminds me a bit of a Liverpool forum I use called "The Liverpool Way". We have our own general forum in which we discuss all the important issues like the best type of biscuit, women, the media coverage of Jade Goody and other random stuff so I'd be happy to stick around and also answer any other Hillsborough related queries.

I can't pretend to be a huge Hibs fan though. I took my girlfriend to Edinburgh for a weekend away and we ended up going to watch Hearts.... (Though they did end up getting beat).

[Betty Boop]

Hi guys, Liverpool fan here. I was searching for an article that was published this week and came across this forum and thought I'd stop by.

Thanks for the messages of support and it's refreshing to see fans of another club stand up and speak the truth. I've always found Scottish supporters to have a far better understanding of Hillsborough than other English fans. I think this is in part down to the way the disaster was covered down here, particulalry by the S*n. But also because of the impact of Heysel and the way it changed people's perceptions. I can't offer any defence for Heysel but Liverpool fans are still held responsible for many clubs missing out on a place in Europe - despite many of these clubs having had a far bigger hooligan problem than Liverpool at the time. But we carry on fighting for the truth to be known.

I thought I'd answer a few questions and give you a Liverpool fans point of view on a few things:

The S*n/Kelvin MacKenzie

The S*n is still boycotted for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. It is true that other papers printed the same lies at the time. However, those that did also retracted them and apologised only a couple of days after printing them. The S*n also used the words "The truth" and were much more emphatic in how they reported them. In addition, MacKenize has never shown any remose for what was printed. Instead, he's revelled in it and made a career out of appearing controversial. And not only did he write that, but he stooped even lower:

Shortly after the disaster Joan Traynor, who lost two sons, was asked by ITN for permission to film the funeral of her sons. Traynor refused and publicly requested that the media respect her family's privacy with regard to the funeral. ITN and all other British media outlets did indeed respect Mrs Traynor's wishes with the exception of The Sun. Kelvin MacKenzie sent a photographer who clambered over a wall at the cemetery and took numerous photographs of the family laying the two boys to rest before eventually being chased away. The following day photographs of the family at the funeral appeared on the front page of The Sun. Mrs Traynor was said to be deeply upset about the intrusion at the funeral and the subsequent publication of photographs of her and her family on the front page of the same paper which had printing the aforementioned allegations about the disaster itself.

As for the S*n's half hearted apology, too little too late I'm afraid. Though nothing they could do would ever make me want to read it anyway, even if they hadn't covered Hillsborough in the way they did.

Andy Burnham and the Government

I agree to some extent that Wednesday wasn't the time or the place for that sort of protest. But emotions were running high, and people had every right to be angry when the Government had sent a puppet to offer platitudes and patronising comments, and when else can 30,000 people protest directly against a representitive of the Government? Burnham was in a no win situation really, but I think the Government may as well have not sent anyone as I couldn't see it ever doing any good.

In addition, it's not just the friends of families of the victims who protest. The victims aren't just those who died. Thousands of people were scarred for life over what happened, and being a Liverpool fan you obviously read up a lot about Hillsborough and it makes people angry and frustrated that people have yet to be given any form of closure.

Justice

It is often asked what people want, but it isn't as black and white as people wanting individuals to be held accountable. Duckenfield, who was the officer in charge that day was taken to court on manslaughter charges but the jury failed to a reach a verdict and the judge refused a retrial. I think many people accept that individuals won't be held accountable now, that doesn't make it right but it's the sad reality.

But it goes deeper than that. The first official inquiry declared a cut off time of 3:15pm for those who died. i.e The official verdict was that all those who died on the day (One fan died years later after being in a coma) were dead before 3:15pm. But there is evidence uncovered by the families than some fans were alive way beyond this time. One fan, Kevin Williams, even asked for his Mum at 4:00pm.

After this cut off point nobody knows exactly what happened as the Government have never opened up an inquiry into how things were dealt with. Why were ambulances turned away from the ground? Would many of these fans have survived if they were given medical treatment?

And so much evidence has been hidden, CCTV tapes have mysteriously gone missing, witness statements were used selectively and the views of people like the only ambulance paramedic who was allowed on to the pitch to help out have been totaly ignored. Because he arrived on the scene after 3:15pm he effectively doesn't exist in the eyes of the initial inquiry.

So the main thing people want is a full public inquiry into what happened. People want answers and the families of those who died want closure.

In addition, there are still so many myths flying around and rumours that have been repeated so often that they've almost become facts. The ticketless fans who stormed the gates line is mentioned everytime this discussion pops up - and I'm pleased to see it's been dispelled on this thread. And we just want people to know the truth. It's hard to let go and totally move on when there are still so many inaccuracies flying about.

Once you start looking at what really happened it's next to impossible to let it go as the truth is so frustrating. Reading the Taylor report and a book by Phil Scraton called "Hillsborough: The Truth" can only make you angry that so much has been covered up.


Anyway, I like the look of this site. I had a look around whilst I was waiting for my account to be verified and it reminds me a bit of a Liverpool forum I use called "The Liverpool Way". We have our own general forum in which we discuss all the important issues like the best type of biscuit, women, the media coverage of Jade Goody and other random stuff so I'd be happy to stick around and also answer any other Hillsborough related queries.

I can't pretend to be a huge Hibs fan though. I took my girlfriend to Edinburgh for a weekend away and we ended up going to watch Hearts.... (Though they did end up getting beat). Hi there, welcome to the board. :thumbsup:

[Gatecrasher]

Hi guys, Liverpool fan here. I was searching for an article that was published this week and came across this forum and thought I'd stop by.

Thanks for the messages of support and it's refreshing to see fans of another club stand up and speak the truth. I've always found Scottish supporters to have a far better understanding of Hillsborough than other English fans. I think this is in part down to the way the disaster was covered down here, particulalry by the S*n. But also because of the impact of Heysel and the way it changed people's perceptions. I can't offer any defence for Heysel but Liverpool fans are still held responsible for many clubs missing out on a place in Europe - despite many of these clubs having had a far bigger hooligan problem than Liverpool at the time. But we carry on fighting for the truth to be known.

I thought I'd answer a few questions and give you a Liverpool fans point of view on a few things:

The S*n/Kelvin MacKenzie

The S*n is still boycotted for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. It is true that other papers printed the same lies at the time. However, those that did also retracted them and apologised only a couple of days after printing them. The S*n also used the words "The truth" and were much more emphatic in how they reported them. In addition, MacKenize has never shown any remose for what was printed. Instead, he's revelled in it and made a career out of appearing controversial. And not only did he write that, but he stooped even lower:

Shortly after the disaster Joan Traynor, who lost two sons, was asked by ITN for permission to film the funeral of her sons. Traynor refused and publicly requested that the media respect her family's privacy with regard to the funeral. ITN and all other British media outlets did indeed respect Mrs Traynor's wishes with the exception of The Sun. Kelvin MacKenzie sent a photographer who clambered over a wall at the cemetery and took numerous photographs of the family laying the two boys to rest before eventually being chased away. The following day photographs of the family at the funeral appeared on the front page of The Sun. Mrs Traynor was said to be deeply upset about the intrusion at the funeral and the subsequent publication of photographs of her and her family on the front page of the same paper which had printing the aforementioned allegations about the disaster itself.

As for the S*n's half hearted apology, too little too late I'm afraid. Though nothing they could do would ever make me want to read it anyway, even if they hadn't covered Hillsborough in the way they did.

Andy Burnham and the Government

I agree to some extent that Wednesday wasn't the time or the place for that sort of protest. But emotions were running high, and people had every right to be angry when the Government had sent a puppet to offer platitudes and patronising comments, and when else can 30,000 people protest directly against a representitive of the Government? Burnham was in a no win situation really, but I think the Government may as well have not sent anyone as I couldn't see it ever doing any good.

In addition, it's not just the friends of families of the victims who protest. The victims aren't just those who died. Thousands of people were scarred for life over what happened, and being a Liverpool fan you obviously read up a lot about Hillsborough and it makes people angry and frustrated that people have yet to be given any form of closure.

Justice

It is often asked what people want, but it isn't as black and white as people wanting individuals to be held accountable. Duckenfield, who was the officer in charge that day was taken to court on manslaughter charges but the jury failed to a reach a verdict and the judge refused a retrial. I think many people accept that individuals won't be held accountable now, that doesn't make it right but it's the sad reality.

But it goes deeper than that. The first official inquiry declared a cut off time of 3:15pm for those who died. i.e The official verdict was that all those who died on the day (One fan died years later after being in a coma) were dead before 3:15pm. But there is evidence uncovered by the families than some fans were alive way beyond this time. One fan, Kevin Williams, even asked for his Mum at 4:00pm.

After this cut off point nobody knows exactly what happened as the Government have never opened up an inquiry into how things were dealt with. Why were ambulances turned away from the ground? Would many of these fans have survived if they were given medical treatment?

And so much evidence has been hidden, CCTV tapes have mysteriously gone missing, witness statements were used selectively and the views of people like the only ambulance paramedic who was allowed on to the pitch to help out have been totaly ignored. Because he arrived on the scene after 3:15pm he effectively doesn't exist in the eyes of the initial inquiry.

So the main thing people want is a full public inquiry into what happened. People want answers and the families of those who died want closure.

In addition, there are still so many myths flying around and rumours that have been repeated so often that they've almost become facts. The ticketless fans who stormed the gates line is mentioned everytime this discussion pops up - and I'm pleased to see it's been dispelled on this thread. And we just want people to know the truth. It's hard to let go and totally move on when there are still so many inaccuracies flying about.

Once you start looking at what really happened it's next to impossible to let it go as the truth is so frustrating. Reading the Taylor report and a book by Phil Scraton called "Hillsborough: The Truth" can only make you angry that so much has been covered up.


Anyway, I like the look of this site. I had a look around whilst I was waiting for my account to be verified and it reminds me a bit of a Liverpool forum I use called "The Liverpool Way". We have our own general forum in which we discuss all the important issues like the best type of biscuit, women, the media coverage of Jade Goody and other random stuff so I'd be happy to stick around and also answer any other Hillsborough related queries.

I can't pretend to be a huge Hibs fan though. I took my girlfriend to Edinburgh for a weekend away and we ended up going to watch Hearts.... (Though they did end up getting beat).
:top marks

one point i think you missed which i feel is vital to what happened on that day, the tunnel leading to the central pen was not closed off when the police opened the gates allowing fans in, this tunnel was the most obvious way into the stand and most people saw this as the best way into the viewing area. if the tunnel was closed off avoiding the already overcrowded central pen and the remaining fans were to go around to the side pens this could have been avoided all together.

the leppings lane end was notorious for overcrowding, iv heard stories on the radio from west ham, everton fans etc saying that the central pen was over populated and there opinion was that if nothing was done hillsbourgh was on the cards, i cant personally back those opinions up but i have no reason not to believe them.


p.s come and see the hibees when your up next time

GGTTH YNWA :thumbsup:

[stu in nottingham]

.
I can't pretend to be a huge Hibs fan though. I took my girlfriend to Edinburgh for a weekend away and we ended up going to watch Hearts.... (Though they did end up getting beat).

You were doing so well as well!

Seriously, thank you for clarifying those points for people on here. You might know that here in Nottingham we had our own remembrance service in the Old Market Square at which 2000 people came along to the show their respects.

You'll never walk alone.

[LFC Fan]

Haha, cheers guys.

livi_hibee - you're right. There were problems at Hillsborough way before 1989, think it was the 1981 semi where 30 Spurs fans were treated for injuries as a result of overcrowding and in 1988 there were warning signs too. And you're correct about the tunnel too, it could have been avoided so easily. The police control room looked out over the lower tier of the leppings lane end and it was clear from photographs that the central pen was full yet the pens either side were nowhere near full.

stu - I hadn't realised that as many as that turned up. I think the Forest fans are often forgotten about but it affected them too as they were still part of what was a horrible day.

And yes, I will have to make up for going to see Hearts. It was the missus' idea though, honest.

[MSK]

Hi guys, Liverpool fan here. I was searching for an article that was published this week and came across this forum and thought I'd stop by.

Thanks for the messages of support and it's refreshing to see fans of another club stand up and speak the truth. I've always found Scottish supporters to have a far better understanding of Hillsborough than other English fans. I think this is in part down to the way the disaster was covered down here, particulalry by the S*n. But also because of the impact of Heysel and the way it changed people's perceptions. I can't offer any defence for Heysel but Liverpool fans are still held responsible for many clubs missing out on a place in Europe - despite many of these clubs having had a far bigger hooligan problem than Liverpool at the time. But we carry on fighting for the truth to be known.

I thought I'd answer a few questions and give you a Liverpool fans point of view on a few things:

The S*n/Kelvin MacKenzie

The S*n is still boycotted for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. It is true that other papers printed the same lies at the time. However, those that did also retracted them and apologised only a couple of days after printing them. The S*n also used the words "The truth" and were much more emphatic in how they reported them. In addition, MacKenize has never shown any remose for what was printed. Instead, he's revelled in it and made a career out of appearing controversial. And not only did he write that, but he stooped even lower:

Shortly after the disaster Joan Traynor, who lost two sons, was asked by ITN for permission to film the funeral of her sons. Traynor refused and publicly requested that the media respect her family's privacy with regard to the funeral. ITN and all other British media outlets did indeed respect Mrs Traynor's wishes with the exception of The Sun. Kelvin MacKenzie sent a photographer who clambered over a wall at the cemetery and took numerous photographs of the family laying the two boys to rest before eventually being chased away. The following day photographs of the family at the funeral appeared on the front page of The Sun. Mrs Traynor was said to be deeply upset about the intrusion at the funeral and the subsequent publication of photographs of her and her family on the front page of the same paper which had printing the aforementioned allegations about the disaster itself.

As for the S*n's half hearted apology, too little too late I'm afraid. Though nothing they could do would ever make me want to read it anyway, even if they hadn't covered Hillsborough in the way they did.

Andy Burnham and the Government

I agree to some extent that Wednesday wasn't the time or the place for that sort of protest. But emotions were running high, and people had every right to be angry when the Government had sent a puppet to offer platitudes and patronising comments, and when else can 30,000 people protest directly against a representitive of the Government? Burnham was in a no win situation really, but I think the Government may as well have not sent anyone as I couldn't see it ever doing any good.

In addition, it's not just the friends of families of the victims who protest. The victims aren't just those who died. Thousands of people were scarred for life over what happened, and being a Liverpool fan you obviously read up a lot about Hillsborough and it makes people angry and frustrated that people have yet to be given any form of closure.

Justice

It is often asked what people want, but it isn't as black and white as people wanting individuals to be held accountable. Duckenfield, who was the officer in charge that day was taken to court on manslaughter charges but the jury failed to a reach a verdict and the judge refused a retrial. I think many people accept that individuals won't be held accountable now, that doesn't make it right but it's the sad reality.

But it goes deeper than that. The first official inquiry declared a cut off time of 3:15pm for those who died. i.e The official verdict was that all those who died on the day (One fan died years later after being in a coma) were dead before 3:15pm. But there is evidence uncovered by the families than some fans were alive way beyond this time. One fan, Kevin Williams, even asked for his Mum at 4:00pm.

After this cut off point nobody knows exactly what happened as the Government have never opened up an inquiry into how things were dealt with. Why were ambulances turned away from the ground? Would many of these fans have survived if they were given medical treatment?

And so much evidence has been hidden, CCTV tapes have mysteriously gone missing, witness statements were used selectively and the views of people like the only ambulance paramedic who was allowed on to the pitch to help out have been totaly ignored. Because he arrived on the scene after 3:15pm he effectively doesn't exist in the eyes of the initial inquiry.

So the main thing people want is a full public inquiry into what happened. People want answers and the families of those who died want closure.

In addition, there are still so many myths flying around and rumours that have been repeated so often that they've almost become facts. The ticketless fans who stormed the gates line is mentioned everytime this discussion pops up - and I'm pleased to see it's been dispelled on this thread. And we just want people to know the truth. It's hard to let go and totally move on when there are still so many inaccuracies flying about.

Once you start looking at what really happened it's next to impossible to let it go as the truth is so frustrating. Reading the Taylor report and a book by Phil Scraton called "Hillsborough: The Truth" can only make you angry that so much has been covered up.


Anyway, I like the look of this site. I had a look around whilst I was waiting for my account to be verified and it reminds me a bit of a Liverpool forum I use called "The Liverpool Way". We have our own general forum in which we discuss all the important issues like the best type of biscuit, women, the media coverage of Jade Goody and other random stuff so I'd be happy to stick around and also answer any other Hillsborough related queries.

I can't pretend to be a huge Hibs fan though. I took my girlfriend to Edinburgh for a weekend away and we ended up going to watch Hearts.... (Though they did end up getting beat).Excellent, stuff there LFC...welcome to :hnet: