Top cop who lost the plot

[hibiedude]

BUNGLING police chief Bob Quick throws a crucial terror-plot swoop into chaos yesterday by flashing top-secret details in public.
Twelve people were arrested last night, but the raids had to be brought forward after the Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner, 49, unwittingly displayed a document outlining the plans as he arrived to brief PM Gordon Brown and Home Secretary Jacqui Smith at 10 Downing Street.

It had an overview of the raids — codenamed Operation Pathway — rough locations of the wanted men, their nationalities and the names of officers leading the swoops. A “Secret” classification marking was visible at the top.

Within minutes photos had been posted on the internet, sparking a Government D-notice to prevent any reports. It was later lifted.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/article2368511.ece

I think the Metropolitan Police will be looking for a new Assistant Commissioner very shortly :greengrin

[GlesgaeHibby]

What a complete and utter idiot. He had other folders in his hand. All he had to do was slip it into one of them.

[H18sry]

The clown has now quit :bitchy:

[Betty Boop]

The clown has now quit :bitchy:

That was Quick! :greengrin

[ancienthibby]

That was Quick! :greengrin

I take it he was 'forced' (:greengrin) out by the barmy mayor, Boris J!!

But he had two strikes against him already and, as we all know, it's three strikes and you're out!!:wink:

[Sir David Gray]

This was a very stupid thing to do and he had no option but to offer his resignation.

However, I would prefer to focus more on the actual arrests.

There were twelve people in total, who have been arrested, and eleven of them are from Pakistan, who arrived here on student visas.

It's great, eh? These people come here and we provide them with the opportunity of getting a decent education. What do we get in return?

They make up a plan to bomb us to pieces.

There's nothing quite like returning a favour.

There are thousands of like-minded individuals, all over the UK, who are actively planning to carry out terrorist attacks against this country.

Well done to the Police officers who successfully carried out these arrests and I hope those responsible face justice.

I also agree with Gordon Brown that the government of Pakistan must take more responsibility in tackling the growing presence of terrorists within their country.

Pakistan is ridden with Islamic extremists, particularly in the northern parts of the country, where members of Al Qaeda and other similar groups enjoy a free rein. People are going there, from all over the World, to get trained up, before being dispatched on their various deadly missions across the globe.

Pakistan must be told to get tough with these people, or face the consequences of inaction.

[--------]

This was a very stupid thing to do and he had no option but to offer his resignation.

However, I would prefer to focus more on the actual arrests.

There were twelve people in total, who have been arrested, and eleven of them are from Pakistan, who arrived here on student visas.

It's great, eh? These people come here and we provide them with the opportunity of getting a decent education. What do we get in return?

They make up a plan to bomb us to pieces.

There's nothing quite like returning a favour.

There are thousands of like-minded individuals, all over the UK, who are actively planning to carry out terrorist attacks against this country.

Well done to the Police officers who successfully carried out these arrests and I hope those responsible face justice.

I also agree with Gordon Brown that the government of Pakistan must take more responsibility in tackling the growing presence of terrorists within their country.

Pakistan is ridden with Islamic extremists, particularly in the northern parts of the country, where members of Al Qaeda and other similar groups enjoy a free rein. People are going there, from all over the World, to get trained up, before being dispatched on their various deadly missions across the globe.

Pakistan must be told to get tough with these people, or face the consequences of inaction.


And here was I thinking we were still innocent until proven guilty in this country....

It's the JURY who decide on the accused's guilt or innocence, not the Metropolitan Police Force - or at least it should be.

:bitchy:

[Sir David Gray]

And here was I thinking we were still innocent until proven guilty in this country....

It's the JURY who decide on the accused's guilt or innocence, not the Metropolitan Police Force - or at least it should be.

:bitchy:

Of course it's a jury that decides whether someone is guilty or not but I really don't think the Police, the intelligence services and the Government, would waste time, effort and money into following these people, presumably over the course of several months, if they had absolutely no case to answer.

A terrorist plot is a bit different to a street brawl, where any arrest is made on the spur of the moment and the accused can eventually be freed after the full set of circumstances is heard before a court. With a terrorist plot, almost all of the evidence is gathered beforehand, by following the suspects' movements and tapping into e-mail and phone conversations etc. All that is left to do after an arrest has been made, is to gather together any physical evidence, like terrorist videos, bomb making material etc.

It has been reported that the attack was in the final stages of planning and was going to be carried out imminently, in the North West of England.

There's also MI5 involvement in any terrorist investigation. Of course, mistakes are never out of the question but these people are extremely well trained and I really don't think they would be authorising the arrest of people, who have been under surveillance for months, without very good reason.

[hibiedude]

We have had to many high profile mistakes, the Brazilian who got shot in London, the guys that have been held in Gitmo in America held for years without charge then released without charge. You can't just grab some guys of the street hold them for weeks then let them go as has happened many times over the last 2-3 years. Guys like BUNGLING police chief Bob Quick where running these operations so it's easy to see why things can go horribly wrong, then he answers to Home Secretary Jacqui Smith who herself was in the news for all the wrong reasons recently. And who is running the Government' an unelected Prime Minister.

[IWasThere2016]

A further terrorist attack on the US or UK cannae be far away. Its been too quiet or too long. (I appreciate 12 Pakistanis were arrested yesterday but gotta fear the worst)

[CropleyWasGod]

Of course, mistakes are never out of the question but these people are extremely well trained and I really don't think they would be authorising the arrest of people, who have been under surveillance for months, without very good reason.

... like the guy in Houston who was innocent, and Jean Charles de Menezes.

[--------]

Of course it's a jury that decides whether someone is guilty or not but I really don't think the Police, the intelligence services and the Government, would waste time, effort and money into following these people, presumably over the course of several months, if they had absolutely no case to answer.

A terrorist plot is a bit different to a street brawl, where any arrest is made on the spur of the moment and the accused can eventually be freed after the full set of circumstances is heard before a court. With a terrorist plot, almost all of the evidence is gathered beforehand, by following the suspects' movements and tapping into e-mail and phone conversations etc. All that is left to do after an arrest has been made, is to gather together any physical evidence, like terrorist videos, bomb making material etc.

It has been reported that the attack was in the final stages of planning and was going to be carried out imminently, in the North West of England.

There's also MI5 involvement in any terrorist investigation. Of course, mistakes are never out of the question but these people are extremely well trained and I really don't think they would be authorising the arrest of people, who have been under surveillance for months, without very good reason.



Condensed, what you're saying is that now that the Met and Special Branch and MI5 have all got together to charge them, they're almost cettainly guilty.

I wish I lived in your universe, where no one is ever stitched up, and you can always tell whodunnit 'cos he's the the guy in the dock....

:bitchy:

[RyeSloan]

Pakistan is ridden with Islamic extremists, particularly in the northern parts of the country, where members of Al Qaeda and other similar groups enjoy a free rein. People are going there, from all over the World, to get trained up, before being dispatched on their various deadly missions across the globe.

Pakistan must be told to get tough with these people, or face the consequences of inaction.

While agreeing that Pakistan needs to do more it's far too simplistic to say Pakistan must get tough or face the conseqences of inaction (whatever they may be!).

Pakistan is clearly being destablised from the inside, the Governement in Pakistan has limted control over it's regions and even more limited ability to do anything about it...Pakistan needs supported form the West not bullied as you seem to be implying.

[Sir David Gray]

A further terrorist attack on the US or UK cannae be far away. Its been too quiet or too long. (I appreciate 12 Pakistanis were arrested yesterday but gotta fear the worst)

:agree: It's only a matter of time.


... like the guy in Houston who was innocent, and Jean Charles de Menezes.

I'm not sure about the Houston case (perhaps you could explain further) but the Jean Charles de Menezes case was extremely tragic, it should not have happened and I hope that it was a one-off and that something like that never happens again.

What I am saying is, when MI5 and the top security people get involved, as they have done here, there is normally a pretty good chance that they have taken action for a very good reason.


Condensed, what you're saying is that now that the Met and Special Branch and MI5 have all got together to charge them, they're almost cettainly guilty.

I wish I lived in your universe, where no one is ever stitched up, and you can always tell whodunnit 'cos he's the the guy in the dock....

:bitchy:

I didn't say that people don't get stitched up from time to time. What I'm saying is, a terrorism trial is different from almost every other kind of trial because almost all of the evidence against the accused is gathered before an arrest is made, by tracking the individuals and keeping tabs on their lines of communication etc.

I would say that the chances of the authorities making a mistake in a terrorist plot, are very slim, although I accept that they do sometimes happen.


While agreeing that Pakistan needs to do more it's far too simplistic to say Pakistan must get tough or face the conseqences of inaction (whatever they may be!).

Pakistan is clearly being destablised from the inside, the Governement in Pakistan has limted control over it's regions and even more limited ability to do anything about it...Pakistan needs supported form the West not bullied as you seem to be implying.

The Pakistani government has been doing deals with the Taliban, in the north of the country, where they have agreed to enforce Sharia Law in return for a truce agreement.

There should be no deals being made with any of those groups. Instead, their government should be taking a hardline approach towards them and driving any of the foreign influences (mainly from Afghanistan), out of the country.

If they took that stance, I would be more than happy for the West to provide them with whatever assistance that they require, to finish these people off.

Pakistan has a massive problem with terrorists and it is ultimately their responsibility to sort it out. However, if they continue to do very little about the problem, it may be up to the West to sort it out for them.

I am just completely sick to the back teeth of hearing about all these radical Muslims who are either born here or who have moved here (usually from Pakistan) and who are threatening to wage a war against us.

If they are so unhappy with the UK, the solution is very simple...

[GC]

Condensed, what you're saying is that now that the Met and Special Branch and MI5 have all got together to charge them, they're almost cettainly guilty.

I wish I lived in your universe, where no one is ever stitched up, and you can always tell whodunnit 'cos he's the the guy in the dock....

:bitchy:

Condensed, what you are talking is utter nonsense.

I'll tell you something though, I'm glad I don't live in YOUR universe.

FH is quite correct in the fact that this is a terrorist plot on our country, there will have been countless months spent on survelance on this case and you can be sure the evidence gathered will point to the fact that these people were in the process of trying to commit mass murder and panic across the UK and wider World.

Oh to be as cynical as you Doddie:bitchy:

Also and this is the bit that really gets me, I've just read over Falkirk's response to an earlier question posed by you and it is well thought out and in it he also concedes that mistakes of course do happen within any organisation but also points out that this case is very different to your standard criminal case and yet to me your replies come across in a very arrogant manner.

Basically your coming across like your up your own arse.

[Pete]

Pakistan has a massive problem with terrorists and it is ultimately their responsibility to sort it out. However, if they continue to do very little about the problem, it may be up to the West to sort it out for them.

I am just completely sick to the back teeth of hearing about all these radical Muslims who are either born here or who have moved here (usually from Pakistan) and who are threatening to wage a war against us.

If they are so unhappy with the UK, the solution is very simple...

I dont honestly think the pakistani government has the the means to deal with the infiltration of the taliban into it's country let alone these madrasahs that preach hate. It's too much too ask.

It's as if Gordon brown is passing the buck.

A simple soloution is controlled immigration. watertight checks for anyone who wants to enter this country.

what's wrong with that?


too much paperwork??:grr:

[Betty Boop]

Forty-eight hours after the arrests, sources close to the inquiry say no evidence has been found of bombs, bomb-making parts, precursor chemicals to make explosives, a bomb factory, weapons or ammunition. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/11/terrorism-intelligence-pakistan

[hibiedude]

To be honest I'll be shocked if anything is found because as you say Forty-eight hours after the arrests and they haven't found a thing. It must be the first time in history that a terrorist cell in the middle of planing an attack have left no evidence behind. At the start of next week some of those detained will be released. And then we will have the same scenario in the coming months repeated.

[Betty Boop]

:agree: It's only a matter of time.



I'm not sure about the Houston case (perhaps you could explain further) but the Jean Charles de Menezes case was extremely tragic, it should not have happened and I hope that it was a one-off and that something like that never happens again.

What I am saying is, when MI5 and the top security people get involved, as they have done here, there is normally a pretty good chance that they have taken action for a very good reason.



I didn't say that people don't get stitched up from time to time. What I'm saying is, a terrorism trial is different from almost every other kind of trial because almost all of the evidence against the accused is gathered before an arrest is made, by tracking the individuals and keeping tabs on their lines of communication etc.

I would say that the chances of the authorities making a mistake in a terrorist plot, are very slim, although I accept that they do sometimes happen.



The Pakistani government has been doing deals with the Taliban, in the north of the country, where they have agreed to enforce Sharia Law in return for a truce agreement.

There should be no deals being made with any of those groups. Instead, their government should be taking a hardline approach towards them and driving any of the foreign influences (mainly from Afghanistan), out of the country.

If they took that stance, I would be more than happy for the West to provide them with whatever assistance that they require, to finish these people off.

Pakistan has a massive problem with terrorists and it is ultimately their responsibility to sort it out. However, if they continue to do very little about the problem, it may be up to the West to sort it out for them.

I am just completely sick to the back teeth of hearing about all these radical Muslims who are either born here or who have moved here (usually from Pakistan) and who are threatening to wage a war against us.

If they are so unhappy with the UK, the solution is very simple...

Because the West has a great track record of "sorting countries out" :rolleyes:

[LiverpoolHibs]

To be honest I'll be shocked if anything is found because as you say Forty-eight hours after the arrests and they haven't found a thing. It must be the first time in history that a terrorist cell in the middle of planing an attack have left no evidence behind.

Yeah, that's the most logical conclusion...

[--------]

Condensed, what you are talking is utter nonsense.

I'll tell you something though, I'm glad I don't live in YOUR universe.

FH is quite correct in the fact that this is a terrorist plot on our country, there will have been countless months spent on survelance on this case and you can be sure the evidence gathered will point to the fact that these people were in the process of trying to commit mass murder and panic across the UK and wider World.

Oh to be as cynical as you Doddie:bitchy:

Also and this is the bit that really gets me, I've just read over Falkirk's response to an earlier question posed by you and it is well thought out and in it he also concedes that mistakes of course do happen within any organisation but also points out that this case is very different to your standard criminal case and yet to me your replies come across in a very arrogant manner.

Basically your coming across like your up your own arse.



Not cynical - realistic.

And I'm getting slightly tired of watching my civil liberties being eroded by cynical plods and politicians on the make while people like yourself defend them.

Mention 'terrorism' and the idea of a jury trial goes out the window. Instead you get internment without trial, you get the sort of atrocities that have been going on (and still are, regardless of BO's pladges) at G'mo Bay, you get the illegal invasion of a sovereign country backed by any amount of distorted, false intelligence. And a whole lot more.

The de Menezes case WASN'T a 'one-off'; there is a still unresolved case regarding the shooting of Harry Stanley, a Glasgow man living in London who was killed by two Met officers in extremely suspicious circumstances because someone thought his Glasgow accent was an Irish one and he was carrying a chair-leg wrapped in a polythene bag.

Google 'Metropollitan Police shootings' - the first page is headed 'Results 1-10 of about 283,000' for crying out loud. There has been a series of doubtful cases involving that force, and the only reason Harry Stanley stands out is because he wasn't black or Asian. But they thought he was Irish....

Have you heard of Paddy Joe Hill? Read his book some time. the security services weren't too careful about how they went about building the case against him - or a fair number of other Irishmen and women in the 1970's and 80's.

These guys who have been arrested may very well be guilty.

I'm not the one pre-empting the jury. FH did that - in his first post.

I'm sorry of you don't like my tone - myself, I'm not too enamoured of yours either.

[hibiedude]

Yeah, that's the most logical conclusion...

It's the only conclusion you can make not one scape off information suggesting these guys did anything wrong apart from taking pictures of themselves in well known areas. So that means when we all go on holiday in the summer we could face the same fate.

[LiverpoolHibs]

It's the only conclusion you can make not one scape off information suggesting these guys did anything wrong apart from taking pictures of themselves in well known areas. So that means when we all go on holiday in the summer we could face the same fate.

As opposed to the conclusion that they then haven't done anything wrong?

[--------]

As opposed to the conclusion that they then haven't done anything wrong?



I believe that one of the sure signs that a holiday video isn't a holiday video, but a terrorist video scoping an area for places to plant bombs, is if it looks just like a holiday video and nothing at all like a terrorist video.

Especially if there's a trashcan somewhere in the background....

It's in the FBI/CIA/MI5 Handbook.

Those terrorists are fiendishly cunning, Holmes! :cool2:

[degenerated]

As opposed to the conclusion that they then haven't done anything wrong?

other than being muslim in a built up area, but thats okay our good old security services wouldnt make a mistake or a judgement based on religion, nationality or colour of skin - would they ?

[LiverpoolHibs]

other than being muslim in a built up area, but thats okay our good old security services wouldnt make a mistake or a judgement based on religion, nationality or colour of skin - would they ?

Heh. I'm sure that dodgy lot in Birmingham/Guildford were up to something.

On a more serious note, it's a bizarre and worrying state of affairs when a complete lack of evidence points no more towards a crime not being commited (or planned) than finding the most damning evidence imaginable would point towards a crime.

I'd be tempted to describe it as Orwellian if that hadn't become a slightly trite thing to say.

[Woody1985]

other than being muslim in a built up area, but thats okay our good old security services wouldnt make a mistake or a judgement based on religion, nationality or colour of skin - would they ?

Of course they would.

Correct me if I'm wrong (which I may be) but when was the last time someone plotted a terror attack for the fun of it with no real political or religious aim.

Most terrorist generally are trying to impose their views on others and are trying to change things to their liking. Religion and nationality feature heaviliy IMO. E.g IRA, ETA, Islamic extremists. Obviously there are other factors than just religion and nationality but it's certainly something that has to be considered.

[degenerated]

Of course they would.

Correct me if I'm wrong (which I may be) but when was the last time someone plotted a terror attack for the fun of it with no real political or religious aim.

Most terrorist generally are trying to impose their views on others and are trying to change things to their liking. Religion and nationality feature heaviliy IMO. E.g IRA, ETA, Islamic extremists. Obviously there are other factors that just religion and nationality but it's certainly something that has to be considered.

you are correct in what you say but it can't be assumed that all irish people are in the IRA, that all basques are in ETA and that all muslims are in al qaeda. That was the point i was trying to make.

[Woody1985]

you are correct in what you say but it can't be assumed that all irish people are in the IRA, that all basques are in ETA and that all muslims are in al qaeda. That was the point i was trying to make.

To me it came across like you were saying that people are targetted or discriminated against based purely on their religion and/or nationality with nothing to back it up.

People are saying in the recent incident saying that there is no evidence on any of the suspects after 48 hours and are automatically assuming these people are innocent. I'm not saying that they're not but FH makes a good few points re the way the intelligence services will be looking at things ie building up a picture of the people in question.

Perhaps a well handled intelligence operation might not divulge all their evidence to the press immediately after the arrests. People will automatically say it's not been well handled because of one idiot who held a piece of paper the wrong way round, albeit quite catastrophically. That's not to say that all of the others under his command are not good at their job. How many people think their manager is a waste of space and would much rather someone else was in their place?

[degenerated]

To me it came across like you were saying that people are targetted or discriminated against based purely on their religion and/or nationality with nothing to back it up.

People are saying in the recent incident saying that there is no evidence on any of the suspects after 48 hours and are automatically assuming these people are innocent. I'm not saying that they're not but FH makes a good few points re the way the intelligence services will be looking at things ie building up a picture of the people in question.

Perhaps a well handled intelligence operation might not divulge all their evidence to the press immediately after the arrests. People will automatically say it's not been well handled because of one idiot who held a piece of paper the wrong way round, albeit quite catastrophically. That's not to say that all of the others under his command are not good at their job. How many people think their manager is a waste of space and would much rather someone else was in their place?

what i and, i think, liverpool hibs and doddie have been saying is that it shouldn't be taken as read that the security services are infallible - just ask the birmingham six, the guildford four or the mcguire seven. whether that be out of badness or incompetence is the matter that is up for debate.

[Sir David Gray]

I dont honestly think the pakistani government has the the means to deal with the infiltration of the taliban into it's country let alone these madrasahs that preach hate. It's too much too ask.

It's as if Gordon brown is passing the buck.

A simple soloution is controlled immigration. watertight checks for anyone who wants to enter this country.

what's wrong with that?


too much paperwork??:grr:

So if they can't deal with the problem on their own, surely we should be going in to help them. Pakistan's government might not be able to sort it out themselves but they're hardly doing much to solve the problem when they're actually accommodating the Taliban and providing them with their own mini-state in which to do as they please.

I agree that the UK also has a role to play in this. Whilst we can't do much if our own citizens are visiting Pakistan and going to Al Qaeda training camps (it's up to the Pakistani authorities to identify such people and then inform the UK authorities), we can do something about foreign nationals entering the UK.

I read today that there are approximately 10,000 Pakistani nationals who enter the UK on student visas, every year (there have been just over 40,000 between 2004-2008). 98% are granted an extension to their original visa, which allows them to stay on in Britain.

There needs to be a strict set of rules and criteria put in place that people are required to meet, before they set foot on UK soil. Clearly, the current procedures in place are not satisfactory and do not go far enough.


Because the West has a great track record of "sorting countries out" :rolleyes:

If Pakistan doesn't take stern action against the Taliban and Al Qaeda's presence in their country, I don't see any other alternative. The current situation in Pakistan puts us under increased danger of suffering another terrorist attack and it is not something that I am personally willing to tolerate any longer.

Perhaps if we're attacked again, maybe more on a 9/11 scale this time, people might start to sit up and take some notice and realise the severity of the dangers we are facing.

[LiverpoolHibs]

If Pakistan doesn't take stern action against the Taliban and Al Qaeda's presence in their country, I don't see any other alternative. The current situation in Pakistan puts us under increased danger of suffering another terrorist attack and it is not something that I am personally willing to tolerate any longer.

Perhaps if we're attacked again, maybe more on a 9/11 scale this time, people might start to sit up and take some notice and realise the severity of the dangers we are facing.

What are your plans?

[hibsbollah]

Not cynical - realistic.

And I'm gettig slightly tired of watching my civil liberties being eroded by cynical plods and politicians on the make while people like yourself defend them.

Mention 'terrorism' and the idea of a jury trial goes out the window. Instead you get internment without trial, you get the sort of atrocuties that have been going on (and sytill are, regardless of BO's pladges) at G'mo Bay, you get the illegal invasion of a sovereign country backed by any amount of distorted, false intelligence. And a while lot more.

The de Menezes case WASN'T a 'one-off. There is a still unresolved case regarding the shooting of Harry Stanley, a Glasgow man living in London who was killed by two Met officers in extremely suspicious circumstances because someone thought his Glasgow accent was an Irish one and he was carrying a chair-leg wrapped in a polythene bag.

Google 'Metropollitan Police shootings' - the first page is headed 'Results 1-10 of about 283,000' for crying out loud. There has been a series of doubtful cases involving that force, and the only reason Harry Stanley stands out is because he wasn't black or Asian. But they thought he was Irish....

Have you heard of Paddy Joe Hill? Read his book some time. the security services weren't too careful about how they went about building the case against him - or a fair number of other Irishmen and women in the 1970's and 80's.

These guys who have been arrested may very well be guilty.

I'm not the one pre-empting the jury. FH did that - in his first post.

I'm sorry of you don't like my tone - myself, I'm not too enamoured of yours either.

:top marksGreat post.

[hibiedude]

As opposed to the conclusion that they then haven't done anything wrong?

Evidence, charged, then a trail that's how it used to work. :confused:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Evidence, charged, then a trail that's how it used to work. :confused:

You've lost me.

[--------]

If Pakistan doesn't take stern action against the Taliban and Al Qaeda's presence in their country, I don't see any other alternative. The current situation in Pakistan puts us under increased danger of suffering another terrorist attack and it is not something that I am personally willing to tolerate any longer.

Perhaps if we're attacked again, maybe more on a 9/11 scale this time, people might start to sit up and take some notice and realise the severity of the dangers we are facing.




If I understand you correctly, you are advocating either the invasion of Pakistan or interference in the internal affairs of Pakistan - interference backed by military force?

You ARE aware that Pakistan would be justified in resisting such invasion/interference to the limit of its ability?

And that Pakistan possesses nuclear weapons?

Just how many Pakistani people would you be prepared to kill in the pursuit of this enterprise? :cool2:

It is EXACTLY this sort of simplistic thinking that landed us in the position we're in in the first place - the erosion of our civil liberties, the alienation of people through prejudiced and heavy-handed policing, and the casual dismissal of the bloody and violent death of an innocent young man on an underground train as "unfortunate" - but justified because the police who killed him were only obeying the orders of their superiors, who "thought" he was a threat to others.

Only "thought" - just as someone only "thought" Harry Stanley was Irish and armed, and ordered HIM to be gunned down in the street.

You say, "The current situation in Pakistan puts us under increased danger of suffering another terrorist attack and it is not something that I am personally willing to tolerate any longer."

Are you going into Pakistan on your own, or are you intending to take the US and British Armies with you?

[lyonhibs]

Evidence, charged, then a trail that's how it used to work. :confused:

Wait a minute, wasn't the point that - as things stand - there is NO evidence, which rather renders your (assuming you weren't being sarccy which I rather hope you were) statement that this would be the 1st terrorist cell to leave behind no evidence somewhat obselete.

You can't just go around saying people are making up a "terrorist cell" purely because M15 has decided to brush off the old thinking cap. There has to be some bone fide evidence. Which there isn't. So they are all - as yet - as innocent of being "Western hating" terrorists as you or I??

For what it's worth, has everyone lost faith in basic human nature so much that we've established a vaguly linear time-frame along which terrible terrorist events can be quasi-predicted?? The day I say "oooohh there's not been a fatal bomb explosion in a major European city for a good few months yet, but I'm sure one will be along soon enough" will be a sad day indeed. 99% of followers of ALL religions in ALL locations (right, granted I can't ACTUALLY back up that figure empirically, but you catch my drift) are - at the base - peaceful people.

If I alloxed myself to actually get sucked into the "someone is out to get us, and he's probably wearing a funny headdress" mindset that seems to permeate "certain" "correspondents" agendas, I'd be just as worried that any given white, blond haired, blue eyed British boy/girl was about to blow me to kingdom come as I would be that any other colour/religion/nationality was.

[hibiedude]

My point is very simple ; I don't think these guys have done anything wrong and if they had we would have heard something by now because police leak stories to the press to take pressure off themselves and off course for money.

How many times over the last 3 years have we seen this happen, 10 arrested held for a couple of weeks then released Without charge.

There is NO evidence and the fact these guys were supposedly caught in the middle of planing an attack they would indeed be 1st terrorist cell to leave behind no evidence.

As for the M15 has decided to brush off the old thinking cap quote, try telling that to the Jean Charles de Menezes family because the police misidentified him as a suicide bomber about to explode a device on the London Underground.

So show us the Evidence if there is any, Then charged them, then they go on Trial that's how it used to work.

[lyonhibs]

My point is very simple ; I don't think these guys have done anything wrong and if they had we would have heard something by now because police leak stories to the press to take pressure off themselves and off course for money.

How many times over the last 3 years have we seen this happen, 10 arrested held for a couple of weeks then released Without charge.

There is NO evidence and the fact these guys were supposedly caught in the middle of planing an attack they would indeed be 1st terrorist cell to leave behind no evidence.

As for the M15 has decided to brush off the old thinking cap quote, try telling that to the Jean Charles de Menezes family because the police misidentified him as a suicide bomber about to explode a device on the London Underground.

So show us the Evidence if there is any, Then charged them, then they go on Trial that's how it used to work.

:agree: :agree: :agree: So we're in agreement then!!!

[hibiedude]

[/B]

:agree: :agree: :agree: So we're in agreement then!!!

That has alway's been my take perhaps some people took what I was saying the wrong way. :agree:

[--------]

My point is very simple ; I don't think these guys have done anything wrong and if they had we would have heard something by now because police leak stories to the press to take pressure off themselves and off course for money.

How many times over the last 3 years have we seen this happen, 10 arrested held for a couple of weeks then released Without charge.

There is NO evidence and the fact these guys were supposedly caught in the middle of planing an attack they would indeed be 1st terrorist cell to leave behind no evidence.

As for the M15 has decided to brush off the old thinking cap quote, try telling that to the Jean Charles de Menezes family because the police misidentified him as a suicide bomber about to explode a device on the London Underground.

So show us the Evidence if there is any, Then charged them, then they go on Trial that's how it used to work.



Have they found any yet? Evidence, I mean.

BTW - I have a question. The police had firm and trustworthy "information" that a terrorist suicide bomber was about to set off a suicide bomb on the London Underground. IIRC that's what Sir Ian Blair said at the time.

But they tracked and shot the wrong guy. (Seven times, in the head.)

So presumably the REAL bomber wasn't found, tracked and shot.

He was still out there somewhere, with his explosive back-pack.

So why didn't HE get on the Underground somewhere else and set his bomb off later?

Where did he go to?

I only ask. :rolleyes:

[LiverpoolHibs]

That has alway's been my take perhaps some people took what I was saying the wrong way. :agree:

Hmmmm, so what was the meaning of this then?


It's the only conclusion you can make not one scape off information suggesting these guys did anything wrong apart from taking pictures of themselves in well known areas. So that means when we all go on holiday in the summer we could face the same fate.

[hibiedude]

Hmmmm, so what was the meaning of this then?


The meaning was the only crime these guys did was taking pictures of themselves in well known areas. and the point I was trying to make was, we could all face the same fate when we go on our summer hoildays. in the wrong area at the wrong time

[--------]

The meaning was the only crime these guys did was taking pictures of themselves in well known areas. and the point I was trying to make was, we could all face the same fate when we go on our summer hoildays. in the wrong area at the wrong time


Is that the case of the young guys who went to Disneyland and their video diary was used as evidence to charge them with terrorist offences?

If it is, the FBI 'expert' stated in court that he knew that their tape was a terrorist tape sussing out targets was because it didn't look like a terrorist tape sussing out targets, but just like a holiday video.

So presumably if it HADN'T looked like a holiday video (maybe if it had looked like a tape of terrorists sussing out possible targets?) then he'd have concluded that it was obviously nothing more sinister than a holiday video?

One of the most telling aspects of their terrorist video was that they had taken a very clear shot of a trashcan....


You know, whenever I hear of some anti-terrorism expert pontificating about Al Qaeda and Bin Laden and stuff, I think of Macavity the Mystery Cat?

http://www.love-poems.me.uk/eliot_macavity_the_mystery_cat.htm

[Woody1985]

Unless anyone has actually seen any of the video / evidence then how do you know about the content and the specifics of it?

If they happened to be videoing every bin and the immediate surrounding of that then it's suspicious IMO. If they happen to be take 20 pictures and a couple have a bin then I'd say that's not. If all the pictures were to have bins I'd say it is more than a little suspicious unless there's a high density of bins in the area! No one can comment until they've seen the video / pictures and they certainly can't say that the video/pictures isn't valid evidence.

I'd imagine I'm the same as most and think that people are innocent until proven guilty.

It would seem that there are many people protesting these guys, and many other like them, innocence without anything to back it up. At the same time there will be people who are suspicious and may go with the 'The Police have charged them / taken them in so chances are they are guilty approach.'

Maybe if people took a step back and waited to see how things play out and what evidence, if any, comes to the fore and make judgements at that time.

[CropleyWasGod]

Was each bin laden or empty?

[LiverpoolHibs]

The meaning was the only crime these guys did was taking pictures of themselves in well known areas. and the point I was trying to make was, we could all face the same fate when we go on our summer hoildays. in the wrong area at the wrong time

Oh right, I'd got the wrong end of the stick.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Was each bin laden or empty?

:tee hee:

Very good.

[--------]

Unless anyone has actually seen any of the video / evidence then how do you know about the content and the specifics of it?

If they happened to be videoing every bin and the immediate surrounding of that then it's suspicious IMO. If they happen to be take 20 pictures and a couple have a bin then I'd say that's not. If all the pictures were to have bins I'd say it is more than a little suspicious unless there's a high density of bins in the area! No one can comment until they've seen the video / pictures and they certainly can't say that the video/pictures isn't valid evidence.

I'd imagine I'm the same as most and think that people are innocent until proven guilty.

It would seem that there are many people protesting these guys, and many other like them, innocence without anything to back it up. At the same time there will be people who are suspicious and may go with the 'The Police have charged them / taken them in so chances are they are guilty approach.'

Maybe if people took a step back and waited to see how things play out and what evidence, if any, comes to the fore and make judgements at that time.


Liverpool gave us links to a Channel 4 (?) documentary series from about 3 years back that had footage from the video.

The trashcan only appeared in passing, as it were, but the FBI expert explained to the jury that that was the deep and dastardly cunning of the guys who shot the video. They deliberately shot the trashcans in passing so that no one but an FBI expert could work out that the real point of the video wasn't to film themselves and their friends enjoying Disneyland, but to shoot the trashcans with a view to placing bombs there on a later occasion (when presumably they'd leave the camcorder at home). He knew they were going to place bombs in the trashcan because they had names like Ali or Achmed or Mahmoud, you see.

If they'd shot the trashcans deliberately (or given them a starring role in the video) then I presume he'd have concluded that the guys were just messing around on holiday.... :rolleyes:

Maybe LH would be good enough to give us the links again - those documentaries are well-worth a second look.

[Sir David Gray]

What are your plans?

Maybe I'll leave - again. :wink:


If I understand you correctly, you are advocating either the invasion of Pakistan or interference in the internal affairs of Pakistan - interference backed by military force?

You ARE aware that Pakistan would be justified in resisting such invasion/interference to the limit of its ability?

And that Pakistan possesses nuclear weapons?

Just how many Pakistani people would you be prepared to kill in the pursuit of this enterprise? :cool2:

It is EXACTLY this sort of simplistic thinking that landed us in the position we're in in the first place - the erosion of our civil liberties, the alienation of people through prejudiced and heavy-handed policing, and the casual dismissal of the bloody and violent death of an innocent young man on an underground train as "unfortunate" - but justified because the police who killed him were only obeying the orders of their superiors, who "thought" he was a threat to others.

Only "thought" - just as someone only "thought" Harry Stanley was Irish and armed, and ordered HIM to be gunned down in the street.

You say, "The current situation in Pakistan puts us under increased danger of suffering another terrorist attack and it is not something that I am personally willing to tolerate any longer."

Are you going into Pakistan on your own, or are you intending to take the US and British Armies with you?

Who says that the Pakistani Government would want to react to any British action?

They are apparently (so they say) supportive of the international war against terrorism and people keep saying that they cannot fight their problem alone. So bearing both of those points in mind, surely they would be quite happy to allow UK forces in to the problem areas, like the Swat Valley region, to assist in their fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban?

I'm not talking about starting an all-out war on the entire country. I'm merely speaking about targeting the problem areas, in the north of the country, near to the border with Afghanistan.

Today's confirmation of a deal between the Pakistani Government and the Taliban, suggests that their supposed determination to resist the Taliban and Al Qaeda, is nothing more than lip service.

Just out of interest, what would the people, who oppose my approach to this issue, do to sort out the thousands of radical Muslims who are living in this country, many of whom have attended Al Qaeda training camps (mainly in Pakistan) and who are actively plotting to carry out massive attacks against the UK?

I don't think it's acceptable to sit back and do nothing but if someone has an idea that is better than what I have proposed, then I would be genuinely interested in hearing it.

[Betty Boop]

Maybe I'll leave - again. :wink:



Who says that the Pakistani Government would want to react to any British action?

They are apparently (so they say) supportive of the international war against terrorism and people keep saying that they cannot fight their problem alone. So bearing both of those points in mind, surely they would be quite happy to allow UK forces in to the problem areas, like the Swat Valley region, to assist in their fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban?

I'm not talking about starting an all-out war on the entire country. I'm merely speaking about targeting the problem areas, in the north of the country, near to the border with Afghanistan.

Today's confirmation of a deal between the Pakistani Government and the Taliban, suggests that their supposed determination to resist the Taliban and Al Qaeda, is nothing more than lip service.

Just out of interest, what would the people, who oppose my approach to this issue, do to sort out the thousands of radical Muslims who are living in this country, many of whom have attended Al Qaeda training camps (mainly in Pakistan) and who are actively plotting to carry out massive attacks against the UK?

I don't think it's acceptable to sit back and do nothing but if someone has an idea that is better than what I have proposed, then I would be genuinely interested in hearing it. What evidence is there of the above?

[Pete]

What evidence is there of the above?

If you're looking for evidence of radical muslims then there have been plenty of TV documentaries exposing radical clerics and their followers who distribute anti-western material.

These same programs have also proved that some of them have been to pakistan and been schooled in madrasahs that promote anti-western thinking. These "schools of thought" are closely linked to al-qaeda traing camps...the same programs have shown this...and have shown their followers training within them.

I admit that some outlets exaggerate the problem but for some people to flatly deny that the problem exists within a certain community is bordering on laughable. It's as if some are are just being stubborn for the sake of it.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Liverpool gave us links to a Channel 4 (?) documentary series from about 3 years back that had footage from the video.

The trashcan only appeared in passing, as it were, but the FBI expert explained to the jury that that was the deep and dastardly cunning of the guys who shot the video. They deliberately shot the trashcans in passing so that no one but an FBI expert could work out that the real point of the video wasn't to film themselves and their friends enjoying Disneyland, but to shoot the trashcans with a view to placing bombs there on a later occasion (when presumably they'd leave the camcorder at home). He knew they were going to place bombs in the trashcan because they had names like Ali or Achmed or Mahmoud, you see.

If they'd shot the trashcans deliberately (or given them a starring role in the video) then I presume he'd have concluded that the guys were just messing around on holiday.... :rolleyes:

Maybe LH would be good enough to give us the links again - those documentaries are well-worth a second look.

Which one was that? My memory is terrible.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Who says that the Pakistani Government would want to react to any British action?

They are apparently (so they say) supportive of the international war against terrorism and people keep saying that they cannot fight their problem alone. So bearing both of those points in mind, surely they would be quite happy to allow UK forces in to the problem areas, like the Swat Valley region, to assist in their fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban?

I'm not talking about starting an all-out war on the entire country. I'm merely speaking about targeting the problem areas, in the north of the country, near to the border with Afghanistan.

That's exactly what's been happening for the six months or so. It doesn't seem to be doing much. Surprise, surprise. Not to mention the flagrant violation of international law and indiscriminate nature of the attacks (mainly carried out with drones). This may have a bearing on your next point...


Just out of interest, what would the people, who oppose my approach to this issue, do to sort out the thousands of radical Muslims who are living in this country, many of whom have attended Al Qaeda training camps (mainly in Pakistan) and who are actively plotting to carry out massive attacks against the UK?

I don't think it's acceptable to sit back and do nothing but if someone has an idea that is better than what I have proposed, then I would be genuinely interested in hearing it.

A complete sea-change in policy coupled with some absolutely grovelling apologies for both our unilateral, multilateral and complicit involvement in crimes in the Middle East in the last couple of hundred years wouldn't go amiss.

[--------]

Which one was that? My memory is terrible.


Now you're asking....

IIRC it was a four-part series on the history of Islamic extremism - starting in Sadat's Egypt and through to 9/11 and the West's response to 9/11. I think it was on U-tube?

Yu gave us the links on an earlier thread on a similiar subject to this. I watched them through, but stupidly didn't put the links into my favourites menu, and then my computer had a glitch and I lst the reference....

I'm hunting them and WILL find them, but I just thought you might have the links to hand.

One thing I do remember - one of the prorams was very explicit and absolutely positive that "Al Qaeda" as a world-wide web of inter-related Isalmic terrorist groups under the direction of Master Criminal Osama 'Moriarty' Bin Laden is nothing more than a fictional construction of the imaginations of American and UK intelligence and subversion agencies.

You know - like Macavity?

"And when the Foreign Office finds a Treaty's gone astray,
Or the Admiralty lose some plans and drawings by the way,
There may be a scrap of paper in the hall or on the stair,
But it's useless to investigate - Macavity's not there!
And when the loss has been disclosed, the Secret Service say,
"It MUST have been Macavity!" - but he's a mile away.
You'll be sure to find him resting, or a-licking of his thumbs,
Or engaged in doing complicated long-division sums...."

Every 'Intelligence' service needs a ready scapegoat or two for when they screw up - it saves their jobs and means they don't have to engage in any of that tiresome investigation work. They just blame Macavity, or the Black Hand Gang, or Osama and Al Qaeda.

But I've already been told I have a problem with being cynical.... :devil:


I'm also beginning to wonder just how many countries' sovereignty we'll need to violate before some folks'll be satisfied - Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Syria, the Lebanon....

[Betty Boop]

Now you're asking....

IIRC it was a four-part series on the history of Islamic extremism - starting in Sadat's Egypt and through to 9/11 and the West's response to 9/11. I think it was on U-tube?

Yu gave us the links on an earlier thread on a similiar subject to this. I watched them through, but stupidly didn't put the links into my favourites menu, and then my computer had a glitch and I lst the reference....

I'm hunting them and WILL find them, but I just thought you might have the links to hand.

One thing I do remember - one of the prorams was very explicit and absolutely positive that "Al Qaeda" as a world-wide web of inter-related Isalmic terrorist groups under the direction of Master Criminal Osama 'Moriarty' Bin Laden is nothing more than a fictional construction of the imaginations of American and UK intelligence and subversion agencies.

You know - like Macavity?

"And when the Foreign Office finds a Treaty's gone astray,
Or the Admiralty lose some plans and drawings by the way,
There may be a scrap of paper in the hall or on the stair,
But it's useless to investigate - Macavity's not there!
And when the loss has been disclosed, the Secret Service say,
"It MUST have been Macavity!" - but he's a mile away.
You'll be sure to find him resting, or a-licking of his thumbs,
Or engaged in doing complicated long-division sums...."

Every 'Intelligence' service needs a ready scapegoat or two for when they screw up - it saves their jobs and means they don't have to engage in any of that tiresome investigation work. They just blame Macavity, or the Black Hand Gang, or Osama and Al Qaeda.

But I've already been told I have a problem with being cynical.... :devil:

Was it not "The Power of Nightmares" by Adam Curtis? http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+power+of+nightmares#

[--------]

Was it not "The Power of Nightmares" by Adam Curtis? http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+power+of+nightmares#



Betty, you're a genius! It was indeed. :thumbsup:

Bang on the money. I owe you a coconut.

Blessings on you.

:aok:

:not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth

[Betty Boop]

Betty, you're a genius! It was indeed. :thumbsup:

Bang on the money. I owe you a coconut.

Blessings on you.

:aok:

:not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :greengrin A brilliant documentary! :agree:

[--------]

:greengrin A brilliant documentary! :agree:



Indeed it is.

Isn't it strange it hasn't had a re-run on any channel where anyone might be able to see it?


Doh! There I go being sinickle again. :devil:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Was it not "The Power of Nightmares" by Adam Curtis? http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+power+of+nightmares#

Ah right, yeah. Absolutely fantastic documentary, I wonder if Falkirk ever got round to watching it...

I've been working my way through everything by Adam Curtis recently, he's incredible.

The Century of Self. http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=Century+of+Self&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

The Living Dead. http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=the+living+dead+curtis&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

Both are fascinating, unapologeticaly intellectual yet never dull. You can also catch him on the latest episode of Charlie Brooker's new programme Newswipe, talking about 'Oh Dear-ism'. The man is close to genius.

[--------]

Ah right, yeah. Absolutely fantastic documentary, I wonder if Falkirk ever got round to watching it...

I've been working my way through everything by Adam Curtis recently, he's incredible.

The Century of Self. http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=Century+of+Self&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

The Living Dead. http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=the+living+dead+curtis&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

Both are fascinating, unapologeticaly intellectual yet never dull. You can also catch him on the latest episode of Charlie Brooker's new programme Newswipe, talking about 'Oh Dear-ism'. The man is close to genius.


Ta, LH.

I'll catch those too.

After carefully entering them in my favourites list. :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Ta, LH.

I'll catch those too.

After carefully entering them in my favourites list. :greengrin

Another good one Doddie http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=404227395387111085

[--------]

Another good one Doddie http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=404227395387111085



Ta. Now nobody round here better die in the next couple of days, cos I'm gonnae be busy.... :devil:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Another good one Doddie http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=404227395387111085

I've just watched the first part of that one - **** You Buddy. Looks great so far, if slightly scary. The bits with John Nash are riveting.

[hibsbollah]

:agree:'The Power of Nightmares' is brilliant viewing, the thing that struck me after watching it is that there is always a historical context to everything. The parallels between 21st Century Islamophobia and 1950s McCarthyism are very striking:agree:

[steakbake]

I've just watched the first part of that one - **** You Buddy. Looks great so far, if slightly scary. The bits with John Nash are riveting.

Listened to this today as I was working. Fantastic links there.

I'm also listening to Power of Nightmares. It is also fascinating. As Hibsbollah says, it's the historical context. The factual glue which holds our current reality together.

It's interesting to draw parallels between this really infantile binary view of the world of good and evil etc and what we see in our politicians and "establishment" here.

[--------]

Listened to this today as I was working. Fantastic links there.

I'm also listening to Power of Nightmares. It is also fascinating. As Hibsbollah says, it's the historical context. The factual glue which holds our current reality together.

It's interesting to draw parallels between this really infantile binary view of the world of good and evil etc and what we see in our politicians and "establishment" here.


Aye, infantile it may be, but people suffer for it.

Babar Ahmad's still in gaol waiting to see whether he's going to be extradited to the US on terrorism charges. Those charges are very similar to charges which the Met brought against him - and failed to justify. Mr Ahmad was severely beaten (boots and truncheons) at the time of his arrest; the police searched his home, seized his computers, and subjected him to seven days of interrogation. The CPS refused to charge him - insufficient evidence - so the Met handed what they HAD got over to the US authorities, who lodged an extradition request, and Mr Ahmad ended up in gaol - that was 5 years ago.

5 years because the US want him to face accusations the prosecutors in his own country have already dismissed.

The senior officer in this case was one DCI Boutcher, who was second i/c when J-C de Menezes was unlawfully killed....

Check out this week's Private Eye for the update if you don't believe me.

[Sir David Gray]

What evidence is there of the above?

There's been numerous examples in the press in recent months and years that give evidence of the point that I have made.

This (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5971074.ece) will do for starters.


A complete sea-change in policy coupled with some absolutely grovelling apologies for both our unilateral, multilateral and complicit involvement in crimes in the Middle East in the last couple of hundred years wouldn't go amiss.

I had a feeling you might say something along those lines...:wink:

You really believe that all it will take is for a few 'sorrys' to be said, to individuals who are so radically brainwashed into following their warped ideology, that they are actually prepared to blow themselves up to achieve their aims, and they will suddenly make friends and stop trying to attack us?

I don't think an apology would get us anywhere, nor would it change anything. There are only two things that would make Al Qaeda and their ilk change their ways and decide to stop planning attacks on us.

They are;

-Turn the United Kingdom into a full Islamic state.
-Stop all support for the state of Israel and sever all diplomatic relations with them.

Both of those things would happen over my dead body.


Ah right, yeah. Absolutely fantastic documentary, I wonder if Falkirk ever got round to watching it...

I've been working my way through everything by Adam Curtis recently, he's incredible.

The Century of Self. http://video.google.co.uk/videosearc...en&emb=0&aq=f#

The Living Dead. http://video.google.co.uk/videosearc...en&emb=0&aq=f#

Both are fascinating, unapologeticaly intellectual yet never dull. You can also catch him on the latest episode of Charlie Brooker's new programme Newswipe, talking about 'Oh Dear-ism'. The man is close to genius.

I watched the first one and most of the second, but I haven't got round to watching the last one yet, but I do intend to eventually.

As I said at the time, it is a very good documentary and I really enjoyed watching it, although it didn't alter my views in any way.

[Betty Boop]

Police delete tourist's photos "to prevent terrorism" :rolleyes: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/16/police-delete-tourist-photos

[steakbake]

Police delete tourist's photos "to prevent terrorism" :rolleyes: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/16/police-delete-tourist-photos

Absolutely. We must sacrifice every freedom we have to ensure we don't get attacked. Everyone is a suspect and if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

Didn't you know that freedom and security are mutually exclusive? Tourism is only a few letters away from terrorism afterall. :dizzy::duck:

PS: we should never question the actions of our police. They have a difficult job to do and they are there to keep our streets safe etc etc.

[--------]

Police delete tourist's photos "to prevent terrorism" :rolleyes: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/16/police-delete-tourist-photos


This has been happening more and more, particularly in London.

It's illegal, in fact, but when you have two polis in uniform and flak-jackets and stuff in your face, who's going to say no?

[Betty Boop]

Nine men suspected of terrorist plot released without charge, but handed over to the Borders agency. They are to be removed on the grounds of National Security.

[--------]

Nine men suspected of terrorist plot released without charge, but handed over to the Borders agency. They are to be removed on the grounds of National Security.


If we can prove you're a threat to national security, we'll put you on trial, find you guilty, and put you in gaol for years and years and years.

If we can't prove you're a threat to national security, we'll hand you over to the Borders Agency, who won't bother whether you're guilty or not, but they'll put you in gaol for years and years and years....


Catch-22, I believe....

"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle."

"That's some catch, that Catch-22," Yossarian observed.

"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed...."

The Catch that says that THEY they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

It's a doozy. :agree:

[Sir David Gray]

Nine men suspected of terrorist plot released without charge, but handed over to the Borders agency. They are to be removed on the grounds of National Security.

Good. The fact they are being deported "on grounds of national security", means they are obviously linked in some way, they just can't get enough evidence against them that would stand up in court.

I'll wait until all twelve have been released, without any charges being brought against them, before apologising for my presumptuous comments at the start of this thread.

[hibsbollah]

Good. The fact they are being deported "on grounds of national security", means they are obviously linked in some way, they just can't get enough evidence against them that would stand up in court.



Can you not see where this could lead? Legislation like this means a future Govt, who decides that falkirkhibee's views are unacceptable, could deport you without 'any evidence that would stand up in court'. Sounds like fascism to me.

[Betty Boop]

Good. The fact they are being deported "on grounds of national security", means they are obviously linked in some way, they just can't get enough evidence against them that would stand up in court.

I'll wait until all twelve have been released, without any charges being brought against them, before apologising for my presumptuous comments at the start of this thread.
They can't get any evidence because there is no evidence. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/22/nine-pakistani-students-arrested

[lyonhibs]

Good. The fact they are being deported "on grounds of national security", means they are obviously linked in some way, they just can't get enough evidence against them that would stand up in court.

I'll wait until all twelve have been released, without any charges being brought against them, before apologising for my presumptuous comments at the start of this thread.

Is that comment for real???

The fact that they are being deported stinks to the high heavens of a "oh christ we've made a arse of this one, let's make up some bluster to get them out of here before they put us even more in the ***** via the media"

Or at least it "obviously" means that just about as much as it "obviously" means they are linked "in some way" (is "guilty by vague association" a crime these days if your face doesn't fit??)

I'd venture that there's fanny all evidence against them beyond some clutching at straws hypothesising from some boffin high up in the Met.

A ridiculous situation for us to be in as a country - AGAIN!!!

[--------]

Good. The fact they are being deported "on grounds of national security", means they are obviously linked in some way, they just can't get enough evidence against them that would stand up in court.

I'll wait until all twelve have been released, without any charges being brought against them, before apologising for my presumptuous comments at the start of this thread.

You have a touching faith in the good faith of our police and security services, my friend.

:bitchy:


Can you not see where this could lead? Legislation like this means a future Govt, who decides that falkirkhibee's views are unacceptable, could deport you without 'any evidence that would stand up in court'. Sounds like fascism to me.

:agree:

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist; and then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist; and then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew; and then they came for me... and by that time there was no one left to speak up."

[Peevemor]

I have a pretty close friend of about 16/17 years standing, Jean Pierre Ellien, who along with others was arrested on terrorism charges in 2003. He was imprisoned and questioned (serious stuff!!!) for close on a month before he was released without charge (though on a form of probation to save official face). The experience aged him by 10 years and would have cost him his job had it not been for the support of the entire local community. I dread to think the effect this would have had on somebody with a weaker character.

Not one of the seven people arrested in the raid were charged.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/1445977/Seven-held-after-Real-IRA-arms-found-in-France.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1446054/Real-IRA-used-folk-festival-as-cover-for-gun-running.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article1012529.ece

[LiverpoolHibs]

Good. The fact they are being deported "on grounds of national security", means they are obviously linked in some way, they just can't get enough evidence against them that would stand up in court.

I'll wait until all twelve have been released, without any charges being brought against them, before apologising for my presumptuous comments at the start of this thread.

Mercy, you are a walking advert for the success of scare-politics.

"Fear became mother's milk to our childish psyches..."

[hibiedude]

Yeah, that's the most logical conclusion...

All 12 men arrested over a suspected bomb plot in the UK have now been released without charge by police.

Eleven - all Pakistani nationals - have been transferred to UK Border Agency custody and face possible deportation

Prime Minister Gordon Brown's spokesman told reporters: "We are seeking to remove these individuals on grounds of national security. :bitchy:

[Betty Boop]

Good. The fact they are being deported "on grounds of national security", means they are obviously linked in some way, they just can't get enough evidence against them that would stand up in court.

I'll wait until all twelve have been released, without any charges being brought against them, before apologising for my presumptuous comments at the start of this thread. All released without charge.

[steakbake]

All released without charge.

Recent changes to the immigration act mean that people removed or deported from the UK are barred for a maximum of 10 years from re-entry, no questions asked.

Doesn't seem fair if there is no evidence of any wrong-doing and it is solely based on flawed intelligence. Apparently it was "aspirational as opposed to operational".

Also interesting, is that from arrest to release, it took 13 days to look into a large-scale terrorism plot. It kind of suggests that the government's plan of 42 days yet again, is shown to be totally pointless.

Brown called it "a very big plot" (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6070133.ece)

Mind you, he's not as good or as devious as Blair in carrying out a continuous campaign, but he's still got us acting like pavlov's dogs.

[Betty Boop]

Recent changes to the immigration act mean that people removed or deported from the UK are barred for a maximum of 10 years from re-entry, no questions asked.

Doesn't seem fair if there is no evidence of any wrong-doing and it is solely based on flawed intelligence. Apparently it was "aspirational as opposed to operational".

Also interesting, is that from arrest to release, it took 13 days to look into a large-scale terrorism plot. It kind of suggests that the government's plan of 42 days yet again, is shown to be totally pointless.

Brown called it "a very big plot" (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6070133.ece)

Mind you, he's not as good or as devious as Blair in carrying out a continuous campaign, but he's still got us acting like pavlov's dogs.
Not all of us, more and more people are wakening up, we are refusing to salivate. :greengrin

[steakbake]

Not all of us, more and more people are wakening up, we are refusing to salivate. :greengrin

Very true.

[--------]

Recent changes to the immigration act mean that people removed or deported from the UK are barred for a maximum of 10 years from re-entry, no questions asked.

Doesn't seem fair if there is no evidence of any wrong-doing and it is solely based on flawed intelligence. Apparently it was "aspirational as opposed to operational".

Also interesting, is that from arrest to release, it took 13 days to look into a large-scale terrorism plot. It kind of suggests that the government's plan of 42 days yet again, is shown to be totally pointless.

Brown called it "a very big plot" (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6070133.ece)

Mind you, he's not as good or as devious as Blair in carrying out a continuous campaign, but he's still got us acting like pavlov's dogs.


Not all of us, mate. I grew out of the "our polis right or wrong" attitude round about the time I found out Dixon of Dock Green was on the take from the Kray brothers.

[LiverpoolHibs]

All 12 men arrested over a suspected bomb plot in the UK have now been released without charge by police.

Eleven - all Pakistani nationals - have been transferred to UK Border Agency custody and face possible deportation

Prime Minister Gordon Brown's spokesman told reporters: "We are seeking to remove these individuals on grounds of national security. :bitchy:

Why have you quoted me there, out of interest? :confused:

[Sir David Gray]

Apologies for being a bit late with this comment.

Now that all twelve men have been released without charge, I do apologise for being a bit too hasty in my original remarks.

I'll certainly be a bit more careful in future, with what I say, regarding anyone who is arrested.