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Dashing Bob S
28-03-2009, 11:05 PM
...in what is arguably the weakest World Cup qualifying group in the European section?

On tonight's performance there must be a fair chance.

rabcp1
28-03-2009, 11:11 PM
I don’t think we'll come last but we don’t have a hope in hell off qualifying, there are only 8/9 playoff spots available, were in the smallest group with 4 points from 5 games looks like another summer at home next year :bitchy:

Richard Scott
28-03-2009, 11:15 PM
I don’t think we'll come last but we don’t have a hope in hell off qualifying, there are only 8/9 playoff spots available, were in the smallest group with 4 points from 5 games looks like another summer at home next year :bitchy:

I think you'll make the Play-offs, providing you get maximum points Wednesday night.

rabcp1
28-03-2009, 11:29 PM
I think you'll make the Play-offs, providing you get maximum points Wednesday night.

No danger we basically started on -6 points in regards to a playoff spot due to the way the groups work, since then we’ve managed a piss poor 4 points from 4 games this should put us a mile behind the other 2nd place sides, realistically we'll need to go unbeaten the rest of the qualifying campaign just to grab a play off spot, cant see that happening

Allant1981
28-03-2009, 11:30 PM
...in what is arguably the weakest World Cup qualifying group in the European section?

On tonight's performance there must be a fair chance.


They were playing one of the best sides in the world tonight, did anyone really expect a result? If they fail to take anything on wednesday then IMO questions should be getting asked

millarco
28-03-2009, 11:38 PM
Think we've got a good chance still of finishing second, but I doubt we'll accumulate enough points to make the play-offs. Tonight hasn't changed anything; we were always going to be up against it with a full strength side, nevermind without a couple of key players.

AFKA5814_Hibs
28-03-2009, 11:45 PM
I don’t think we'll come last but we don’t have a hope in hell off qualifying, there are only 8/9 playoff spots available, were in the smallest group with 4 points from 5 games looks like another summer at home next year :bitchy:

Difficult to work out at the moment. They dismiss the results against the bottom placed sides in the groups with 6 teams. So games against the real minnows like San Marino and Andorra don't come into it.

Scotland have as much chance of finishing 2nd as they do of finishing bottom in their group. There ain't much to seperate the other teams outwith Holland, but obviously have to win the home game against Iceland on Wednesday.

rabcp1
28-03-2009, 11:55 PM
Difficult to work out at the moment. They dismiss the results against the bottom placed sides in the groups with 6 teams. So games against the real minnows like San Marino and Andorra don't come into it.

Scotland have as much chance of finishing 2nd as they do of finishing bottom in their group. There ain't much to seperate the other teams outwith Holland, but obviously have to win the home game against Iceland on Wednesday.

So they do had forgotten about that, were still with a chance then but we can afford no more slip ups IMO the results against Macedonia and Norway could still some back to haunt us!

Richard Scott
28-03-2009, 11:57 PM
Slightly off topic here, but are the play-offs over two legs?

AFKA5814_Hibs
28-03-2009, 11:59 PM
Slightly off topic here, but are the play-offs over two legs?

Yep. :agree:

Richard Scott
29-03-2009, 12:01 AM
Yep. :agree:

Thanks. Wasn't too sure, and any team can meet any team? No seeds?

rabcp1
29-03-2009, 12:03 AM
Thanks. Wasn't too sure, and any team can meet any team? No seeds?

Im 90% sure that it's seeded, at least it is on FM :wink:

hibsdaft
29-03-2009, 12:11 AM
...in what is arguably the weakest World Cup qualifying group in the European section?

On tonight's performance there must be a fair chance.

harsh.

we were excellent in the first 20 mins, and 20 mins from a respectable 2-1 defeat (no way that wasn't a goal). and that against the team that for a fortnight last year were favourites to win the European Championships.

still on track for 2nd. all teams other than Holland are struggling and are losing points, we're not alone.

most important thing is the players are up for Wed imo.

AFKA5814_Hibs
29-03-2009, 12:14 AM
Thanks. Wasn't too sure, and any team can meet any team? No seeds?

I'm not too sure if it's seeded. :dunno:

At the moment Iceland, who are 2nd in our group on goal difference miss out, but that will change from game to game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_%28UEFA))

Sir David Gray
29-03-2009, 12:27 AM
We still have the following matches remaining;

Iceland-HOME
Macedonia-HOME
Norway-AWAY
Netherlands-HOME

We MUST beat Iceland and Macedonia at Hampden (if we don't win those, we can forget it) and we probably need to win in Norway as well.

If we manage that, we should make the play offs, but even then we might need a draw against the Dutch at Hampden.

Personally, I don't see it happening, but you never know.

Going on second placed points tallies from the previous World Cup qualifying campaign, we will probably need around 16 points to finish 2nd. For that to happen, we would need to win all our remaining fixtures. Winning in Norway will be hard enough, without even thinking about the game against the Netherlands.

I don't think we'll finish bottom, but it's almost certainly going to end up as yet another failure.

Wilson
29-03-2009, 08:28 AM
I think by the time Scotland play Holland again they'll have long since qualified. With a few key players rested and a spirited performance from Scotland a draw might not be out of the question.

It is a moot point though as Scotland will fail to get the required results against the rest of the group.


We still have the following matches remaining;

Iceland-HOME
Macedonia-HOME
Norway-AWAY
Netherlands-HOME

We MUST beat Iceland and Macedonia at Hampden (if we don't win those, we can forget it) and we probably need to win in Norway as well.

If we manage that, we should make the play offs, but even then we might need a draw against the Dutch at Hampden.

Personally, I don't see it happening, but you never know.

Going on second placed points tallies from the previous World Cup qualifying campaign, we will probably need around 16 points to finish 2nd. For that to happen, we would need to win all our remaining fixtures. Winning in Norway will be hard enough, without even thinking about the game against the Netherlands.

I don't think we'll finish bottom, but it's almost certainly going to end up as yet another failure.

Owain_1987
29-03-2009, 09:57 AM
...in what is arguably the weakest World Cup qualifying group in the European section?

On tonight's performance there must be a fair chance.

Are you a Yam :greengrin

iwasthere1972
29-03-2009, 01:11 PM
...in what is arguably the weakest World Cup qualifying group in the European section?

On tonight's performance there must be a fair chance.

To be fair we did have a weakened team last night (Barry Ferguson was playing :wink:) and up against one of the best footballing sides in Europe. It's easy to knock us on the back of a bad result but bring on Iceland on Wednesday. :thumbsup:

Remember we are a small nation and unlike England, Spain, France etc (populations 60 to 80 million) we don't have the luxury of a large pool of talented players to pick from.

Bishop Hibee
29-03-2009, 01:16 PM
...in what is arguably the weakest World Cup qualifying group in the European section?

On tonight's performance there must be a fair chance.

:yawn:

Hibster
29-03-2009, 01:19 PM
...in what is arguably the weakest World Cup qualifying group in the European section?

On tonight's performance there must be a fair chance.

jeez, we weren't that bad. in fact we looked pretty good first 20 minutes - far better than the last time we played there anyway. losing 3-0 (and with a perfectly good goal disallowed) away to Holland is no disgrace

no chance will we finish last. no reason why we can't win all our remaining games - Norway are nothing special, and Holland will have the group completely wrapped up by the time we play them at Hampden


No danger we basically started on -6 points in regards to a playoff spot due to the way the groups work, since then we’ve managed a piss poor 4 points from 4 games this should put us a mile behind the other 2nd place sides, realistically we'll need to go unbeaten the rest of the qualifying campaign just to grab a play off spot, cant see that happening

not sure what you mean, but points against bottom teams don't count when it comes to working out play-off positions so it doesn't make any difference what group you're in, as far as I can tell

BEEJ
29-03-2009, 01:35 PM
We MUST beat Iceland and Macedonia at Hampden (if we don't win those, we can forget it) and we probably need to win in Norway as well.
I'm so old I can recall a Scotland side cuffing Norway 4-1 over there - and I seem to remember that Joe Harper even got one of the goals! :greengrin

(Even watched the match in black and white I think - so it was a looooooooong time ago!) :dizzy:

Deek01
29-03-2009, 06:32 PM
...in what is arguably the weakest World Cup qualifying group in the European section?

On tonight's performance there must be a fair chance.


No:bitchy:

basehibby
30-03-2009, 07:46 AM
...in what is arguably the weakest World Cup qualifying group in the European section?

On tonight's performance there must be a fair chance.

:shocked:Surprised you were watching Bob!

Or maybe you weren't watching very closely as your comments above are pure :fishin:.

1) NO group with Holland in it could be described as EASY right now - their team ouzes class - did you even watch the European championship???
2) The Scotland performance was not actually particularly bad (one or two individuals excepted) - Holland were genuinely rattled after the first 20 mins or so and there's no doubt it should've been 2-1 with 20 mins to go - thus giving Scotland a fighting chance of gaining a point.

heretoday
30-03-2009, 08:28 AM
I can foresee another nail-biting final game against Holland with Scotland having to win and only drawing.

Mag7
30-03-2009, 09:48 AM
harsh.

we were excellent in the first 20 mins, and 20 mins from a respectable 2-1 defeat (no way that wasn't a goal). and that against the team that for a fortnight last year were favourites to win the European Championships.

still on track for 2nd. all teams other than Holland are struggling and are losing points, we're not alone.

most important thing is the players are up for Wed imo.


From what I saw it could have been another 6-0 if the Dutch had really needed to exert themselves. The thing about the Caldwell 'goal' is that the ref had already blown before he headed it so the Dutch defence had switched off.

In saying that, I don't see why Scotland shouldn't finish second in what is, apart from the Dutch, a really weak group. If they can't beat minnows like Iceland and Macedonia at home they clearly don't deserve a sniff at qualification.

Tomsk
30-03-2009, 10:28 AM
I'm so old I can recall a Scotland side cuffing Norway 4-1 over there - and I seem to remember that Joe Harper even got one of the goals! :greengrin

(Even watched the match in black and white I think - so it was a looooooooong time ago!) :dizzy:

That was Denmark. I am old enough to remember that too. :boo hoo:

Part/Time Supporter
30-03-2009, 10:33 AM
That was Denmark. I am old enough to remember that too. :boo hoo:

It sounds an impressive result until you consider that Denmark were strictly amateur at international level until the mid-1970s. Finn Dossing was banned from international football after he signed for Dundee United; he had been an under-21 player for them while he was still in Denmark. That explains why they weren't competitive at international level until the early 1980s, when they beat England to qualify for Euro 84 (Allan Simonsen, Preben Elkjaer, etc.).

HuddsHibs
30-03-2009, 11:01 AM
Surely it's obvious what will happen. We will heroically make the playoffs, only to allow us to fail at the very last hurdle. Preferably with some excuse like blaming a ballboy or something like that. That's how it usually pans out.

Joe Baker II
30-03-2009, 11:23 AM
2nd in group having played 3 out of 4 games away from home, not earth shattering but not disasterous either. Last game against Holland looks like being when Holland are already through, ifs and buts but in which case defeat on Saturday may actually have been better result than a draw if Dutch relax for last game.

Not sure about verdict at weekend now just back from the Dam, feeling was Holland could have scored more goals had they wanted too, BUT had our perfectly good goal been allowed we never know what would have happened.

Alicky Ranks
30-03-2009, 11:43 AM
From what I saw it could have been another 6-0 if the Dutch had really needed to exert themselves. The thing about the Caldwell 'goal' is that the ref had already blown before he headed it so the Dutch defence had switched off.

In saying that, I don't see why Scotland shouldn't finish second in what is, apart from the Dutch, a really weak group. If they can't beat minnows like Iceland and Macedonia at home they clearly don't deserve a sniff at qualification.

Exactly. I don't get where folk are coming from saying Wednesday is going to be a tough game. There's less than 500,000 people live in Iceland, a tenth of the population of Scotland. Ole Gottskalksson played for them FFS. Scotland have beaten them in all five games they have played against them. As for Macedonia I think there's a couple of million live there but again should be no problem at all at Hampden. Are Scotland really THAT p**h that folk think they could finish behind the likes of these teams?

SidBurns
30-03-2009, 12:14 PM
I personally think another 7 points could be enough giving us 11. Groups 1, 3, 5 and 7 could save us. All very very close and would mean the second placed teams in any of these groups having to get 17+ points to net a playoff place (assuming they get 6 points against the bottom team).

basehibby
30-03-2009, 01:53 PM
Exactly. I don't get where folk are coming from saying Wednesday is going to be a tough game. There's less than 500,000 people live in Iceland, a tenth of the population of Scotland. Ole Gottskalksson played for them FFS. Scotland have beaten them in all five games they have played against them. As for Macedonia I think there's a couple of million live there but again should be no problem at all at Hampden. Are Scotland really THAT p**h that folk think they could finish behind the likes of these teams?

Only the terminally suicidal and/or Scotland naysayers who seem to frequent these boards will tend to take such a doomladen view.

Re your assertion that Scotland's games vs Iceland and Macedonia ought to be easy:
England have 10 times the population of Scotland
Holland have 3 times the population of Scotland
Does that mean that any away fixture against these sides is a home win as a foregone conclusion? I think not! The facts are that there are no easy fixtures in international football these days.

BEEJ
30-03-2009, 02:29 PM
That was Denmark. I am old enough to remember that too. :boo hoo:
:doh:

The mind starts to play tricks at my age! :greengrin

--------
30-03-2009, 02:40 PM
To be fair we did have a weakened team last night (Barry Ferguson was playing :wink:) and up against one of the best footballing sides in Europe. It's easy to knock us on the back of a bad result but bring on Iceland on Wednesday. :thumbsup:

Remember we are a small nation and unlike England, Spain, France etc (populations 60 to 80 million) we don't have the luxury of a large pool of talented players to pick from.


Scotland don't have a large pool of players, full stop.

And very few of those are what could be realistically called 'talented' in modern international terms.

Our main problems IMO are a lack of height and intelligence in defence (mediocre full-backs rapidly heading for pensionable age don't help here either) and a lack of anything like genuinely incisive finishing.

Fletcher's one-footed, Miller needs six or seven touches before he gets round to shooting, and Garry O'Connor isn't looking like fulfilling the promise he was showing when he was at ER. And while I'd love to see Deek given a run, I'm not sure how he'd fit into whatever structure Burley's trying to achieve with the team. Of course, there's always Boyd.

So PROVIDED we don't self-destruct at the back, all we need to do is score. Maybe if Fletch gets the ball played to his right foot (that is, his LEFT, of course), or if Mr Miller decides to restrain himself and take only three touches before shooting....


I find it ironic (actually, it's hysterically and sublimely funny) that on a World Cup weekend when Scotland's finest huffed and puffed and signally failed to blow the Dutch house down, the much maligned JJ of HIBERNIAN (the bench, that is) scored a clinically precise opening goal in Cardiff. And a beauty it certainly was.

Maybe Deek SHOULD get a run against Iceland and Macedonia, at that.

Or even big Nishy.... :devil:

--------
30-03-2009, 02:44 PM
:doh:

The mind starts to play tricks at my age! :greengrin


Black-and-white, BEEJ. You couldn't see the colour of their shirts.

All the foreign teams looked the same in those days.

GhostofBolivar
30-03-2009, 02:47 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/3496953.stm

Where's the option for 'none of the above'?

Mag7
30-03-2009, 03:13 PM
Only the terminally suicidal and/or Scotland naysayers who seem to frequent these boards will tend to take such a doomladen view.

Re your assertion that Scotland's games vs Iceland and Macedonia ought to be easy:
England have 10 times the population of Scotland
Holland have 3 times the population of Scotland
Does that mean that any away fixture against these sides is a home win as a foregone conclusion? I think not! The facts are that there are no easy fixtures in international football these days.

I beg to differ. An away trip for the current Scotland side to face the current England or Holland sides IS a foregone conclusion. We'd get gubbed every time.

JimBHibees
30-03-2009, 03:20 PM
I beg to differ. An away trip for the current Scotland side to face the current England or Holland sides IS a foregone conclusion. We'd get gubbed every time.

Just like we got gubbed against France home and away. We havent a great pool of players but are usually able to compete with the better teams. We certainly cant afford to be gifting Holland 2 easy goals or missing easy chances or being robbed of a perfectly good goal. With our top team including McFadden, Hutton, McManus, Hartley etc we are able to do well and dont see much difference in our squad quality now than when we were a point or 2 from qualifying in a group including the World Champs and runners up. There are young players such as Brown, Hutton, Fletch and others coming through so dont really get the doom and gloom. We certainly need to be winning our next couple of qualifying games and then if we qualify maybe we will get to the Wrodl cup. Not over yet.

--------
30-03-2009, 03:23 PM
Just like we got gubbed against France home and away. We havent a great pool of players but are usually able to compete with the better teams. We certainly cant afford to be gifting Holland 2 easy goals or missing easy chances or being robbed of a perfectly good goal. With our top team including McFadden, Hutton, McManus, Hartley etc we are able to do well and dont see much difference in our squad quality now than when we were a point or 2 from qualifying in a group including the World Champs and runners up. There are young players such as Brown, Hutton, Fletch and others coming through so dont really get the doom and gloom. We certainly need to be winning our next couple of qualifying games and then if we qualify maybe we will get to the Wrodl cup. Not over yet.


The WRODL CUP? :cool2:

basehibby
30-03-2009, 03:38 PM
I beg to differ. An away trip for the current Scotland side to face the current England or Holland sides IS a foregone conclusion. We'd get gubbed every time.

PROBABLY - but not definately. That's the beauty of the game of football - isn't it?!? That would be why our last result at Wenbley managed to be 1-0 to Scotland. That would also be why we would have been fighting for a point in Holland for 20mins if it wasn't for a certain erse of a referee.

It's also why you get lovely things happening like Berwick Rangers knocking the huns out the cup despite having a hundredth of the resources - or teams like Greece and Denmark winning the European Championship. Football is rarely as straightforward as the form book suggests - which is why Scotland will have to be at their very best when Iceland and Macedonia come calling.

--------
30-03-2009, 03:49 PM
PROBABLY - but not definately. That's the beauty of the game of football - isn't it?!? That would be why our last result at Wenbley managed to be 1-0 to Scotland. That would also be why we would have been fighting for a point in Holland for 20mins if it wasn't for a certain erse of a referee.

It's also why you get lovely things happening like Berwick Rangers knocking the huns out the cup despite having a hundredth of the resources - or teams like Greece and Denmark winning the European Championship. Football is rarely as straightforward as the form book suggests - which is why Scotland will have to be at their very best when Iceland and Macedonia come calling.


"Very best"?

Don't you mean "least worst"? :devil:

JimBHibees
30-03-2009, 04:03 PM
The WRODL CUP? :cool2:

More chance of qualifying for the Wrodl cup :greengrin

Mag7
30-03-2009, 05:12 PM
Just like we got gubbed against France home and away. We havent a great pool of players but are usually able to compete with the better teams. We certainly cant afford to be gifting Holland 2 easy goals or missing easy chances or being robbed of a perfectly good goal. With our top team including McFadden, Hutton, McManus, Hartley etc we are able to do well and dont see much difference in our squad quality now than when we were a point or 2 from qualifying in a group including the World Champs and runners up. There are young players such as Brown, Hutton, Fletch and others coming through so dont really get the doom and gloom. We certainly need to be winning our next couple of qualifying games and then if we qualify maybe we will get to the Wrodl cup. Not over yet.

Too much gets made of that win in France. The French were a team badly on the slide as was proved by their pitiful performance at the European Championships. The Dutch on the other hand are at their peak and their superiority was clearly reflected on Saturday.

Alicky Ranks
30-03-2009, 05:19 PM
PROBABLY - but not definately. That's the beauty of the game of football - isn't it?!? That would be why our last result at Wenbley managed to be 1-0 to Scotland. That would also be why we would have been fighting for a point in Holland for 20mins if it wasn't for a certain erse of a referee.

It's also why you get lovely things happening like Berwick Rangers knocking the huns out the cup despite having a hundredth of the resources - or teams like Greece and Denmark winning the European Championship. Football is rarely as straightforward as the form book suggests - which is why Scotland will have to be at their very best when Iceland and Macedonia come calling.

It's desperate to blame the referee for the defeat. As mentioned before, whether or not he got the 'goal' wrong, he clearly whistled before Caldwell headed the ball so it's not even certain he would have put it in the net had the Dutch defence remained switched on. Holland were on cruise control for the second half and could easily have doubled their tally.

As for the Wembley 'win' we'd already lost 2-0 at Hampden, and battling as the performance was at Wembley, we still lost the play-off overall.

Yep, Greece and Denmark winning the Euros was great but for me it only underlined how utterly pathetic Scotland's efforts to qualify for, let alone make their mark, in major championships have been over the last decade or so.

BEEJ
30-03-2009, 05:50 PM
Black-and-white, BEEJ. You couldn't see the colour of their shirts.

All the foreign teams looked the same in those days.
Aye, that'll be the reason, right enough. :whistle: Nae widescreen HDTVs in those days!

Easy mistake to make. :eyes:

basehibby
30-03-2009, 05:58 PM
It's desperate to blame the referee for the defeat. As mentioned before, whether or not he got the 'goal' wrong, he clearly whistled before Caldwell headed the ball so it's not even certain he would have put it in the net had the Dutch defence remained switched on. Holland were on cruise control for the second half and could easily have doubled their tally.

.........

I was not blaming the ref for the defeat - but I WAS blaming him for killing our chances in the game - 20 mins to go with a 1 goal margin would have given us a chance - nothing more - the score may have stayed the same, Scotland might have equalised or then again Holland might have scored 3 more - who knows!
Re the timing of his whistle - I watched the game in the pub and cannot really comment as I didn't hear it - all I can say is that in all the replays I saw I didn't see anybody stop playing and I therefore doubt if it made any difference.
I agree Holland were in cruise control with Robben on fire and their play certainly merited a victory and maybe they could have scored more - but they didn't.
So - I'm not blaming the ref for our defeat - but I AM accusing you of being churlish in refusing to admit that Caldwell's goal could have changed the game if it had stood.
By the way - anybody got any idea why the (crap throughout by the way)ref rulled it out yet? I've heard about a supposed foul on the keeper but all the replays I've seen showed a Dutch player directly in front of his No1 who appeared to be the only player close enough to impede him :dunno:

Joe Baker II
31-03-2009, 09:52 AM
I was not blaming the ref for the defeat - but I WAS blaming him for killing our chances in the game - 20 mins to go with a 1 goal margin would have given us a chance - nothing more - the score may have stayed the same, Scotland might have equalised or then again Holland might have scored 3 more - who knows!
Re the timing of his whistle - I watched the game in the pub and cannot really comment as I didn't hear it - all I can say is that in all the replays I saw I didn't see anybody stop playing and I therefore doubt if it made any difference.
I agree Holland were in cruise control with Robben on fire and their play certainly merited a victory and maybe they could have scored more - but they didn't.
So - I'm not blaming the ref for our defeat - but I AM accusing you of being churlish in refusing to admit that Caldwell's goal could have changed the game if it had stood.
By the way - anybody got any idea why the (crap throughout by the way)ref rulled it out yet? I've heard about a supposed foul on the keeper but all the replays I've seen showed a Dutch player directly in front of his No1 who appeared to be the only player close enough to impede him :dunno:

Good post which pretty sums up my view, Holland were comfortable but unlike 2003 had scored 2 rather than 6.

See Dutch are saying they thought McGregor fouled for second goal too.

JimBHibees
31-03-2009, 01:45 PM
Too much gets made of that win in France. The French were a team badly on the slide as was proved by their pitiful performance at the European Championships. The Dutch on the other hand are at their peak and their superiority was clearly reflected on Saturday.

We also beat them at home as well. Considering they were on the slide and dont think they are wrong they still had enough about them to take 4 points off Italy in the group. Dutch were good however dont think they are that good we gave them a helping hand with 2 cheap goals and missing a sitter.

Alicky Ranks
12-08-2009, 11:04 PM
Scotland deserve to finish last from what I saw of tonight's performance.

Mag7
13-08-2009, 10:57 AM
I thought this thread was based on last night but I see it was started after the Holland game. It's probably better suited to last night's display though, after which I think it's entirely possible Scotland could finish last. Iceland are already out of the running though, so they maybe won't be trying a leg.

hibs1875aye
13-08-2009, 11:01 AM
...in what is arguably the weakest World Cup qualifying group in the European section?

On tonight's performance there must be a fair chance.

For someone who doesn't care about the national team, you just love to put the boot in Bob. Why is that?

Dashing Bob S
13-08-2009, 11:22 AM
For someone who doesn't care about the national team, you just love to put the boot in Bob. Why is that?

Hey! That's unfair, old chap, I'm crying foul!

This was an old post and it wasn't revived by me. I've made my feelings about Scotland's national team clear, but, perhaps with it being the excitement of the new season, I really did make an effort to sit through that painful mess yesterday and take an interest.

Obviously, I really do wish I hadn't bothered and I suspect it'll be a long time before I can even muster the energy to press the remote for another game involving that utter shambles.

The bet for the group wooden spoon still looks good though, on last nights performance the Moldovians or Macedonians or whoever have little to fear and the Dutch could basically grab eleven bodies from an Amsterdam drug rehabilitation clinic and get a result against that crowd of second-raters, incompetents and bottle-merchants.