Public Mourning...

[Steve-O]

So, since the other thread was closed, can this topic now be discussed without talking about anyone specifically?

I just want to know why so many statements such as "My heart goes out with their family", "I'm thinking of them", "RIP" etc etc. As I asked on the other thread, do people REALLY sit and think about these people and their families and get upset, or are they just saying it for the sake of it?

In certain cases, people will have some connection with a celebrity - i.e. an ex-Hibs player who you actually saw play, a member of a favourite band or whatever, but sometimes it just seems that people with no connection whatsoever just type on these threads to "express their grief" when I am not entirely sure they are really upset at all?? :confused:

[Sylar]

Firstly, I'm not one of the folks who participates in said "mourning". I definitely didn't when Diana died and I certainly don't in the most recent example.

If you have a particular musical artist/actor/author etc who you have been a fan of for years: followed their work by reading/watching/listening to their material on a regular basis. If that person died, it wouldn't be wrong to be upset (as you point out).

If it was someone who you saw on occasion on the TV, read about in trashy magazines etc, a proper Z list celebrity, then I agree with you - people just feel a need to be seen doing something. I think, in the most recent example, the "outpouring" everyone is having is on account of the personalization of the story - removing the celebrity aspect and painting the image of family. Had the publicity not been centred around the lassies young family, then there wouldn't have been as much media coverage. She would have remained a low-list celebrity who would be remembered for getting embroiled in the racist row which saw her villified in the UK and abroad.

I lost a very close friend to cancer last year, whom I had known since I was 4 and introduced me to my fiance. I was torn to pieces, so I can imagine how those close to anyone who dies from cancer feels (particularly as this was the 2nd loved one I've lost to the disease). As a result, I feel for any family who lose someone under similar conditions, but I don't have any additional/exceptional grief which I'd like to express, on account of who the lassie was.

Sorry to return to the most recent example, but hopefully I've done so from a far enough distance to start another debate up about her. It's just the most fresh example to reference.

[Hibbyradge]

It could be for any number of reasons.

People may have watched their friends and relatives suffer and die from similar diseases and they are reliving that experience so they empathise with the family.

I lost my mother to cancer and I saw the pain and suffering she had to endure and what it did to those close to her. I sympathise with anyone who has to go through that.

Death is a very frightening concept to some, especially young folk, so they feel sorry for those who have to witness it firsthand.

Some people are just genuinely caring about others.

Jade Goody's death was played out in the media (or so I'm told). Regardless of what she did once on Big Brother (or so I'm told), she is not a bad person and I can understand why people would build up an affinity with her, or anyone, after watching such a tragic story unfold.

[Steve-O]

It could be for any number of reasons.

People may have watched their friends and relatives suffer and die from similar diseases and they are reliving that experience so they empathise with the family.

I lost my mother to cancer and I saw the pain and suffering she had to endure and what it did to those close to her. I sympathise with anyone who has to go through that.

Death is a very frightening concept to some, especially young folk, so they feel sorry for those who have to witness it firsthand.

Some people are just genuinely caring about others.

Jade Goody's death was played out in the media (or so I'm told). Regardless of what she did once on Big Brother (or so I'm told), she is not a bad person and I can understand why people would build up an affinity with her, or anyone, after watching such a tragic story unfold.

How can you know she is not a bad person, and dismiss her behaviour on Big Brother (twice)?

Anyway, it's not really about only her, just in general and it doesn't have to be death by cancer, it could be anything really.

I'm not denying that hearing of someone dying in the same way a relative died might bring back some unpleasant memory, my main issue is with the, sometimes IMO, empty statements like 'my thoughts are with their family', when your thoughts are more likely to be about the member of your own family who died, if this has even been the case, and I doubt it would be in every case.

It just seems almost pointless to me to have a 'condolence thread' for this sort of thing which is subsequently shut down if anyone says anything other than 'RIP', 'thoughts with family' etc.

[Danderhall Hibs]

In certain cases, people will have some connection with a celebrity - i.e. an ex-Hibs player who you actually saw play, a member of a favourite band or whatever, but sometimes it just seems that people with no connection whatsoever just type on these threads to "express their grief" when I am not entirely sure they are really upset at all?? :confused:

It happens on a regular basis on here. I know people have lost loved ones (we all have) but I fail to see why posting about it helps you grieve for someone you don't know, haven't ever known and don't know the family of.

Actually I don't see how posting on a public forum about someone you do know would help the grieving process.

I posted all this last year and I'm glad to see people are coming round to my way of thinking.

Maybe the admins could set up an "RIP" forum?

[hibiedude]

Coming from a family of 4 I lost My sister last year to breast cancer aged 52, and still find it hard, Mother Day has just passed and to watch the pain on her kids face is heartbreaking to see. Jade Goody's death which was played out in the media touch a lot off people hearts perhaps because she was only 27 years old and leaves two very young kids.

You don't have to like someone to show compassion

[Steve-O]

It happens on a regular basis on here. I know people have lost loved ones (we all have) but I fail to see why posting about it helps you grieve for someone you don't know, haven't ever known and don't know the family of.

Actually I don't see how posting on a public forum about someone you do know would help the grieving process.

I posted all this last year and I'm glad to see people are coming round to my way of thinking.

Maybe the admins could set up an "RIP" forum?

Yes, it's almost coming to that!

At least if it's someone who has achieved something you could have a thread with clips from youtube of that person actually doing something you enjoyed whether it be a song, film clip etc. At least that would be better than a conveyor belt of 'RIP', 'God Bless', 'She is at peace now', 'my thoughts are with their family', 'my heart goes out'...

[Jack]

There's a growing sub-celebrity culture these days that preys on attention and will take it any way they can. Feeding this are deluded members public who live their sad little lives through the pages of Hello magazine and the others and unreality TV programmes like BB. The cash craving media are only to happy to provide both with the fix they need.

Net result – a large numbers of magazines sold and profits made; a large number of deluded souls thinking they are part of the celebrity ‘set’ and a never ending stream wannabes graving attention.

There will be others who are completely something else …

[Hibbyradge]

How can you know she is not a bad person, and dismiss her behaviour on Big Brother (twice)?



I'm not going to get into an argument with you about it so, I'll bow to your superior moral values and agree that she is a bad person. :bitchy:

Steve, your inability to see anything from anyone else's point of view is remarkable.

Maybe people say their thoughts are with the family because they genuinely feel for the family?

Just because you don't, doesn't mean everyone else is lying.

Anyway, I'm interested as to the reasons you find it so upsetting that people do feel the need to express their empathy.

Are you feeling guilty or inadequate in your heartless world?

[Hiber-nation]

FFS is it a crime to feel sorry for someone you've never met?

[Hibbyradge]

A young woman in the public spotlight died leaving 2 toddlers behind.

To coin a phrase, "I fail to see" why folk are so threatened by a few expressions of condolences that they feel the need to lambast those that express them.

[Wembley67]

It happens on a regular basis on here. I know people have lost loved ones (we all have) but I fail to see why posting about it helps you grieve for someone you don't know, haven't ever known and don't know the family of.

Actually I don't see how posting on a public forum about someone you do know would help the grieving process.

I posted all this last year and I'm glad to see people are coming round to my way of thinking.

Maybe the admins could set up an "RIP" forum?

Writing down or in this case typing how you feel is actually a part of therapy that is used in the grieving process. I know the example that we are referring to is pretty different but it is certainly used for family members and people in your life that you were close to.

[Aritch]

To be fair, posting RIP on a hibs related forum for Jade Goody makes perfect sense.

She comes from a big Hibs family. I remember seeing them altogether at Hampden for the CIS final. I'll never forget the tears of joy on Jackiey Budden's face as Sunshine on Leith was belted out by the crowd.

I'm sure she appreciates the show of support.

I just can't remember what her user name is again. D'oh!

[Hibbyradge]

To be fair, posting RIP on a hibs related forum for Jade Goody makes perfect sense.

She comes from a big Hibs family. I remember seeing them altogether at Hampden for the CIS final. I'll never forget the tears of joy on Jackiey Budden's face as Sunshine on Leith was belted out by the crowd.

I'm sure she appreciates the show of support.

I just can't remember what her user name is again. D'oh!

The Holy Ground is for discussions about "politics, current affairs and maybe even Icelandic fish farming" none of which need to be Hibs related.

[Steve-O]

I'm not going to get into an argument with you about it so, I'll bow to your superior moral values and agree that she is a bad person. :bitchy:

Steve, your inability to see anything from anyone else's point of view is remarkable.

Maybe people say their thoughts are with the family because they genuinely feel for the family?

Just because you don't, doesn't mean everyone else is lying.

Anyway, I'm interested as to the reasons you find it so upsetting that people do feel the need to express their empathy.

Are you feeling guilty or inadequate in your heartless world?

As per usual, you put words in my mouth - where did I say she WAS a bad person? I asked how YOU knew she was a good person?

I never said "everyone" was lying either, see my use of the word "sometimes" in relation to the statements people make about these things.

I'm not even saying it's an outright "lie" as such, just that it seems like a token gesture at times, and is, therefore, meaningless.

Well done on trying to take the piss on a phrase that's not actually been used on this thread as well.

Additionally, I am not "upset" that people feel the need to express empathy, I was merely inquiring WHY people feel the need to express this in the manner they do for almost every person that happens to die?

Your ability to try and make someone look bad and twist words is remarkable also.

You seem incredulous that I could feel the way I do, and yet you chastise me for having an inability to see things from a different point of view? :rolleyes:

And, you infer that I am "heartless" because I don't want to say RIP Jade Goody? That, my friend, is utter b0llocks.

[Steve-O]

Writing down or in this case typing how you feel is actually a part of therapy that is used in the grieving process. I know the example that we are referring to is pretty different but it is certainly used for family members and people in your life that you were close to.

This may very well apply when you are actually grieving for someone in your family or a friend - does it apply for someone you don't know?

[Andy74]

When someone embodies everything you hate about society today, even right up to death, it's hard to feel anything other than complete unease about the whole thing.

Anyone seeing people like that as 'remarkable' or anything like it have been well and truly taken in by the PR machine through which they live thier lives, and now sadly, their deaths.

The whole thing just disgusts me a bit to be honest.

[Hibbyradge]

As per usual, you put words in my mouth - where did I say she WAS a bad person? I asked how YOU knew she was a good person?



I didn't. You're putting words into my mouth. As usual.



Well done on trying to take the piss on a phrase that's not actually been used on this thread as well.



:confused:


As
I was merely inquiring WHY people feel the need to express this in the manner they do for almost every person that happens to die?



And I answered in that spirit, but you chose to argue against my take on it, presumably because you didn't like the answer.

Why ask in the first place?



Your ability to try and make someone look bad and twist words is remarkable also.



It's not me that makes people look bad.



You seem incredulous that I could feel the way I do, and yet you chastise me for having an inability to see things from a different point of view? :rolleyes:



You started this thread.

No-one started a thread critisising you or your motives for not expressing condolences.

If they had, I would have defended you.



And, you infer that I am "heartless" because I don't want to say RIP Jade Goody? That, my friend, is utter b0llocks.

I infered you lived in a heartless world because you express no ability to see things from other, more sympathetic, points of view. Indeed, the tone of your posts suggest you don't believe they are sincere.

You used the words "empty statements" and "for the sake of it" etc. They are about as dismissive as you can get.

I haven't expressed condolences either, but I fully understand that there are any number of reasons someone would.

Maybe they just think it's the right thing to do?

Maybe they're religious?

Maybe that's what they'd like to happen when they die?

What difference does it make to you if someone types RIP because Brittney Spiers dog died? Why do you feel the need to pillory them for it? What harm are they causing you?

[McSwanky]

I didn't. You're putting words into my mouth. As usual.



:confused:



And I answered in that spirit, but you chose to argue against my take on it, presumably because you didn't like the answer.

Why ask in the first place?



It's not me that makes people look bad.



You started this thread.

No-one started a thread critisising you or your motives for not expressing condolences.

If they had, I would have defended you.



I infered you lived in a heartless world because you express no ability to see things from other, more sympathetic, points of view. Indeed, the tone of your posts suggest you don't believe they are sincere.

You used the words "empty statements" and "for the sake of it" etc. They are about as dismissive as you can get.

I haven't expressed condolences either, but I fully understand that there are any number of reasons someone would.

Maybe they just think it's the right thing to do?

Maybe they're religious?

Maybe that's what they'd like to happen when they die?

What difference does it make to you if someone typres RIP because Brittney Spiers dog died? Why do you feel the need to pillory them for it? What harm are they causing you?

I may be wrong, but I think Steve is commenting on society as a whole, rather than just this forum.

I happen to agree with him.

For example, I heard one woman interviewed on the news saying something along the lines of, "I used to go to Jade's salon, so obviously I'm really distraught."

Obviously. :confused:

Now I'm sorry, but for all the sympathy I have for her family (and of course it is tragic that her two boys will now have to grow up without their mother) I just don't buy into this public outporing of condolences towards someone that 99.99% of the 'grievers' never even met.

...and for the record, read the thread back. you did put words into his mouth. Not once did Steve suggest that Jade was a 'bad' person, yet you accused him of doing so.

It's not often that I agree with Steve, but I think he's spot on here.

[Hibbyradge]

I may be wrong, but I think Steve is commenting on society as a whole, rather than just this forum.

I happen to agree with him.

For example, I heard one woman interviewed on the news saying something along the lines of, "I used to go to Jade's salon, so obviously I'm really distraught."

Obviously. :confused:

Now I'm sorry, but for all the sympathy I have for her family (and of course it is tragic that her two boys will now have to grow up without their mother) I just don't buy into this public outporing of condolences towards someone that 99.99% of the 'grievers' never even met.

...and for the record, read the thread back. you did put words into his mouth. Not once did Steve suggest that Jade was a 'bad' person, yet you accused him of doing so.

It's not often that I agree with Steve, but I think he's spot on here.

No I didn't.

[Arch Stanton]

I'm beginning to wonder whether there is any point to RIP threads myself - you're just going to get insensitive clods popping in with "what's the point of all this then".

It's the same with 2-minute silences since they all used to be well observed and moving even if it was usually for someone I'd never heard of - these days you are just waiting for someone to break the silence with a big ahem cough.

I would like to point out though that I can have feelings about someone's plight even if I don't know them or even if the are not popularly considered to be worth my feeling for them. I know that my post was of no use to Jade or her family - I was merely expressing my feelings and these are probably more related to my past experiences of friends and family who have died.

[Jay]

It could be for any number of reasons.

People may have watched their friends and relatives suffer and die from similar diseases and they are reliving that experience so they empathise with the family.

I lost my mother to cancer and I saw the pain and suffering she had to endure and what it did to those close to her. I sympathise with anyone who has to go through that.

Death is a very frightening concept to some, especially young folk, so they feel sorry for those who have to witness it firsthand.

Some people are just genuinely caring about others.

Jade Goody's death was played out in the media (or so I'm told). Regardless of what she did once on Big Brother (or so I'm told), she is not a bad person and I can understand why people would build up an affinity with her, or anyone, after watching such a tragic story unfold.


Thats how I see it. I suppose I am the sort of person who cares, I understand that people suffer and I do genuinly think about them when they are suffering. I dont sit for hours worrying about people but if its in the news I do think about and feel for them.

Would I make a journey to lay flowers and teddies? No - not for me.The only time I ever felt that urge was after Dunblane. I do understand why people do it though. Its a way of showing they care. On a lesser level some people would do a concolence thread on a public forum but for some reason those who disagree with it always feel the need to chip in but they dont feel the need to go and remove the flowers and teddies.

I cant see why others feel the need to moan at people who want to express their sorrow at someones death.

As for Dianas funeral - I thought it was lovely and a very fitting tribute to the person she was. Unfortunately it seems some want that sort of funeral for all public figures and in my opinion it shouldn't happen.


I still blame the media for a lot of what goes on though - its money making at its lowest.

[McSwanky]

No I didn't.

:faf:

[Steve-O]

I didn't. You're putting words into my mouth. As usual.

Deary me, I have no idea how you manage to twist some points and ignore others in almost every post.

How have I put words in your mouth? You said "she is not a bad person". I said "How do you know she is not a bad person?", and then you said "I'll bow to your superior moral values and agree that she is a bad person." - how can you agree with something I haven't even said? If that's not putting words in my mouth, then I am not sure what is?


:confused:

If the "I fail to see" part wasn't aimed at me, then I retract my statement. I suspect I won't be retracting any statements anytime soon though...

And I answered in that spirit, but you chose to argue against my take on it, presumably because you didn't like the answer.

I didn't simply "argue your take", I pointed out specific things - i.e. I wasn't just talking about people who had cancer etc. Besides, isn't this a discussion board?

Why ask in the first place?

It's a particularly topical issue is it not? It was being discussed on another thread which was closed and I personally didn't feel the debate had run it's course. Why not ask?



It's not me that makes people look bad.

Yes, I make myself look bad because my heart doesn't go out to a family I don't know.



You started this thread.

No-one started a thread critisising you or your motives for not expressing condolences.

If they had, I would have defended you.

I asked a question and I questioned the motives of SOME people. That's SOME people, not ALL people.



I infered you lived in a heartless world because you express no ability to see things from other, more sympathetic, points of view. Indeed, the tone of your posts suggest you don't believe they are sincere.

You used the words "empty statements" and "for the sake of it" etc. They are about as dismissive as you can get.

See my previous point.

I haven't expressed condolences either, but I fully understand that there are any number of reasons someone would.

Maybe they just think it's the right thing to do?

This is a point I am trying to make!

Maybe they're religious?

What has religion got to do with it?

Maybe that's what they'd like to happen when they die?

What difference does it make to you if someone typres RIP because Brittney Spiers dog died? Why do you feel the need to pillory them for it? What harm are they causing you?

What harm is it causing you for me to question these people? You are pillorying me for what I am typing.

All in red because I couldn't be bothered messing about with the quote code...

[Jay]

Steve-O and Danderhall - there must be many other topics you dont feel you want to join in on this messageboard so why pick out this one every single time someone does a condolence thread. Why ignore others but not this??

I cant get my heard around the fact you oppose it so much that you cant just ignore it.

[Steve-O]

:faf:

I concur.


How can you know she is not a bad person, and dismiss her behaviour on Big Brother (twice)?


I'll bow to your superior moral values and agree that she is a bad person.

[Hibbyradge]

All in red because I couldn't be bothered messing about with the quote code...

I'm not bothered either then.

RIP this argument.

[Steve-O]

Steve-O and Danderhall - there must be many other topics you dont feel you want to join in on this messageboard so why pick out this one every single time someone does a condolence thread. Why ignore others but not this??

I cant get my heard around the fact you oppose it so much that you cant just ignore it.

:confused:

As I said to Hibbyradge - this is a topical subject right now because of Jade and the huge publicity it it has, and still is, receiving.

I can't get my head round why you'd think having opinions on certain topics, and not really having an opinion on other, is so strange?

I also don't see why I, and others, should ignore a topic because others don't like it? And before this point is picked on as hypocritical, I have merely been asking why people create and post on such condolence threads in CERTAIN circumstances, not stating they should be banned or any such thing.

[Hibbyradge]

I concur.

Ah, you're right.

Hoist by my own petard. Or by my own sarcasm, in this case.


As per usual, you put words in my mouth - where did I say she WAS a bad person? I asked how YOU knew she was a good person?.

Putting words in my mouth too though. :faf:

[Steve-O]

Ah, you're right.

Hoist by my own petard. Or by my own sarcasm, in this case.



Putting words in my mouth too though. :faf:

Hardly the same - the use of "good" and "not bad" hardly changes the argument like your point did with mine.

[Hibbyradge]

:confused:

As I said to Hibbyradge - this is a topical subject right now because of Jade and the huge publicity it it has, and still is, receiving.

I can't get my head round why you'd think having opinions on certain topics, and not really having an opinion on other, is so strange?

I also don't see why I, and others, should ignore a topic because others don't like it? And before this point is picked on as hypocritical, I have merely been asking why people create and post on such condolence threads in CERTAIN circumstances, not stating they should be banned or any such thing.

And people have answered your question on all sorts of levels.

Up till now, there is no sign that you either accept or understand any of those answers. :dunno:

[Steve-O]

I'm not bothered either then.

RIP this argument.

Ah, NOW I see where your coming from with that extensive backing up of your argument.

[Steve-O]

And people have answered your question on all sorts of levels.

Up till now, there is no sign that you either accept or understand any of those answers. :dunno:

3-4 people have given their views and addressed the point of the thread, that's great. Hardly means the thread should be over, should it?

If you have a certain view on something do you just accept another point of view as soon as someone says something contradicting your own view?

Your idea of discussion and debate seems a bit simplistic at times, you can discuss certain points further you know.

[Hibbyradge]

Hardly the same - the use of "good" and "not bad" hardly changes the argument like your point did with mine.

There we go again. Because it doesn't suit your argument, it doesn't count!!! Play fair, dear boy!

However, I said that despite whatever she did on BB, she wasn't a bad person and given the media spotlight, it was easy to see why folk might have an affinity with her.

How can you even challenge that? It's as innocuous a statement as it it obvious.

Also, I would have thought that after your spirited defence of Ross and Brand for their "mistake", you would have been able to see my point.

Instead, you helpfully point out that she actually had 2 incidents on BB, and challenged my view, or my ability/authority to hold one.

FWIW, I don't believe anyone is all bad.

[Hibbyradge]

Ah, NOW I see where your coming from with that extensive backing up of your argument.

One petty point to you, sir.

[Hibbyradge]

3-4 people have given their views and addressed the point of the thread, that's great. Hardly means the thread should be over, should it?



Is it? What gave you that idea?

I said you haven't given any sign of accepting or understanding anyone's answers. That remains the case.




If you have a certain view on something do you just accept another point of view as soon as someone says something contradicting your own view?



If the point of view is valid, then I'll accept it immediately, otherwise it would be arguing for its own sake.

[Jay]

:confused:

As I said to Hibbyradge - this is a topical subject right now because of Jade and the huge publicity it it has, and still is, receiving.

I can't get my head round why you'd think having opinions on certain topics, and not really having an opinion on other, is so strange?

I also don't see why I, and others, should ignore a topic because others don't like it? And before this point is picked on as hypocritical, I have merely been asking why people create and post on such condolence threads in CERTAIN circumstances, not stating they should be banned or any such thing.


What I said was that you should ignore a condolence thread because you dont like it. If someone posts a condolence thread why do you and others feel the need to chip in how much you disagree with them and how you think people who do post on them are slavering. Why cant you just let people post on them without reading your moans. I find it very disrespectul.

Now granted you have started a thread questioning the public mourning but only because the Jade thread was closed. There is no reason someone shouldn't post a thread stating their sympathies at someones passing and I find it very bizzare that you are so vocal against it. Some people care about these things - so what??

[Tomsk]

I don't have a view on Jade Goody one way or the other. I just wanted to say that I am pleased to see this thread as it circumvents the censorship that was applied to other thread.

It would appear we need protection from offensive comments. Personally, I was and remain prepared to run the risk of being offended, but it would appear I need protection from offensive comments.

[LiverpoolHibs]

The deleted posts, that I presume got it closed, also make my 'Dr. Mengele' comment look decidedly odd.

[Arch Stanton]

The deleted posts, that I presume got it closed, also make my 'Dr. Mengele' comment look decidedly odd.

Not to worry - that thread got pretty surreal without the aid of that comment.

[Jay]

I don't have a view on Jade Goody one way or the other. I just wanted to say that I am pleased to see this thread as it circumvents the censorship that was applied to other thread.

It would appear we need protection from offensive comments. Personally, I was and remain prepared to run the risk of being offended, but it would appear I need protection from offensive comments.

Surely its not that you need protection from offensive comments but that this board doesn't tolerate them?

Did the admins not suggest another thread when the original was closed?

[Hibbyradge]

I don't have a view on Jade Goody one way or the other. I just wanted to say that I am pleased to see this thread as it circumvents the censorship that was applied to other thread.

It would appear we need protection from offensive comments. Personally, I was and remain prepared to run the risk of being offended, but it would appear I need protection from offensive comments.

Hang on Tomsk, are you demanding your right to be offended? :confused:

Some of the comments on that thread were way out of order, vile imo, and people were understandably offended by them.

Debate is good and healthy but hibs.net is a better place without comments like that.

[Hibbyradge]

The deleted posts, that I presume got it closed, also make my 'Dr. Mengele' comment look decidedly odd.

I've changed it for you.

Consider it a gift! :wink:

[stu in nottingham]

Hang on Tomsk, are you demanding your right to be offended? :confused:

Some of the comments on that thread were way out of order, vile imo, and people were understandably offended by them.

Debate is good and healthy but hibs.net is a better place without comments like that.

Completely agree.

[hibsbollah]

I may be wrong, but I think Steve is commenting on society as a whole, rather than just this forum.

I happen to agree with him.

For example, I heard one woman interviewed on the news saying something along the lines of, "I used to go to Jade's salon, so obviously I'm really distraught."

Obviously. :confused:

Now I'm sorry, but for all the sympathy I have for her family (and of course it is tragic that her two boys will now have to grow up without their mother) I just don't buy into this public outporing of condolences towards someone that 99.99% of the 'grievers' never even met.

...and for the record, read the thread back. you did put words into his mouth. Not once did Steve suggest that Jade was a 'bad' person, yet you accused him of doing so.

It's not often that I agree with Steve, but I think he's spot on here.

Absolutely agree with you and Steve:top marks its perfectly obvious that some posters are hell-bent on sophistry and deliberate manipulation of what has been said. Its all a bit tiresome and it lowers the level of debate on here, well done for trying to get your genuine point across regardless.

[Dashing Bob S]

Both arguements are valid to my mind.

It's clear that some people do feel the need to express sympathy with almost everyone about practically everything. This doesn't make them intrinstically better or worse people than those who choose to pick their sympathetic targets more discerningly. We would do well to remember that grieving and mourning can be as much about indulging in an essentially selfish exhibitionist need as about expressing a wider connection with society and community. (I'm NOT accussing anyone here of this.)

So I think Steve was right to raise this issue, people's sentiments have been manipulated by a mawkish media which realises that product can be shifted by these urges. It was apparant with Princess Diana. They've been looking for a new Diana for some time, now have it in the unlikely form of Jade Goody.

Let me state that i've nothing against JG as a person. She had zero talent but loads of ambition, and as such was a perfect reality tv star. She manipulated her life and her death, in order to provide for her children (and perhaps satiate her own need to be in the spotlight) which many people do, and probably did more good than harm, especially in raising awareness of cervical cancer as an issue. Her 'crime' was her lack of talent, as we have historically believed that talented people have a right to media exposure and that the rest are tiresome show-offs with nothing to offer. However, I think we need to acccept that the media has become democratised, or, if you prefer, hopelessly dumbed down.

However you feel about JG as a person, we are all to degree culpable in the development of this media culture, where so many of us now seem to feel our lives are only validated by appearing on screen or in print.

Sometimes I think this need for outpourings of collective grief is a merely a symptom of mourning a deeper loss, perhaps one we subconciously feel about the society we know changing at such a rapid rate, and our own increasingly precieved lack of control at how the world is developing. If we pick inappropriate targets to invest these emotions in, it's not really their fault - it's just that our culture ensures they are ready available.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Steve-O and Danderhall - there must be many other topics you dont feel you want to join in on this messageboard so why pick out this one every single time someone does a condolence thread. Why ignore others but not this??

I cant get my heard around the fact you oppose it so much that you cant just ignore it.

I've never posted on an RIP thread yet (even Kahoonas' one). But when folk border on hysterical about the death of someone they don't know and have never met I really wonder about the world I'm bringing my kids into.



RIP this argument.

My thoughts are with it's family. :wink:


What I said was that you should ignore a condolence thread because you dont like it. If someone posts a condolence thread why do you and others feel the need to chip in how much you disagree with them and how you think people who do post on them are slavering. Why cant you just let people post on them without reading your moans. I find it very disrespectul.

Now granted you have started a thread questioning the public mourning but only because the Jade thread was closed. There is no reason someone shouldn't post a thread stating their sympathies at someones passing and I find it very bizzare that you are so vocal against it. Some people care about these things - so what??

You obviously feel strongly about this – couldn’t you have chosen to ignore this thread rather than post your opinion?

[Jay]

I've never posted on an RIP thread yet (even Kahoonas' one). But when folk border on hysterical about the death of someone they don't know and have never met I really wonder about the world I'm bringing my kids into.

Yes you have but only to say you dont see the point as far as I remember.

My thoughts are with it's family. :wink:



You obviously feel strongly about this – couldn’t you have chosen to ignore this thread rather than post your opinion?

This is a thread asking opinions. I gave mine in keeping with that.



Condolence threads generally dont ask for peoples opinion on whether they think its okay to have such a thread hence the reason I suggested those who dont want to make a contribution of condolence should ignore such threads.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I've changed it for you.

Consider it a gift! :wink:

Haha. Excellent. :thumbsup:

[Danderhall Hibs]

This is a thread asking opinions. I gave mine in keeping with that.

Condolence threads generally dont ask for peoples opinion on whether they think its okay to have such a thread hence the reason I suggested those who dont want to make a contribution of condolence should ignore such threads.

Fair enough. What is the point of them then?

IIRC I have started a thread about RIP threads (and the point of them) but not directly posted the same on a thread - for the threat of it being called disrespectful etc.

[Tomsk]

Hang on Tomsk, are you demanding your right to be offended? :confused:

Some of the comments on that thread were way out of order, vile imo, and people were understandably offended by them.

Debate is good and healthy but hibs.net is a better place without comments like that.

I am not demanding anything. But I am always uncomfortable with censorship. I believe I should be able to make my own judgements about what I should and shouldn't read without others making them for me.

I don't know if the comments were, as you put it, out of order and vile, as I didn't get to read them.

[Jay]

Fair enough. What is the point of them then?

IIRC I have started a thread about RIP threads (and the point of them) but not directly posted the same on a thread - for the threat of it being called disrespectful etc.

To be honest I dont know if there is a point but sometimes people like to express sympathies and a bit of compassion. Sometimes people want to discuss the death of someone and maybe were raised to show some respect - I dont know but they do no harm in my opinion.

There are way more pointelss threads on messageboards than ones showing respect to a deceased person.

[Jay]

Fair enough. What is the point of them then?

IIRC I have started a thread about RIP threads (and the point of them) but not directly posted the same on a thread - for the threat of it being called disrespectful etc.

Thats fair enough - there are is no harm in these debates/discussions either. I apologise for saying that you had posted directly on a RIP thread, tbh I thought you had.

[Danderhall Hibs]

To be honest I dont know if there is a point but sometimes people like to express sympathies and a bit of compassion. Sometimes people want to discuss the death of someone and maybe were raised to show some respect - I dont know but they do no harm in my opinion.

There are way more pointelss threads on messageboards than ones showing respect to a deceased person.

I too was raised to show respect. I was also raised to make my mind up and not to be hysterical.

Seems like the next generation will be professional mourners.

[Arch Stanton]

I too was raised to show respect. I was also raised to make my mind up and not to be hysterical.

Seems like the next generation will be professional mourners.

I don't know what it's been like on the streets of Danderhall but I must say it's been pretty quiet round where I stay.

[Jay]

I too was raised to show respect. I was also raised to make my mind up and not to be hysterical.

Seems like the next generation will be professional mourners.


Can you show me anywhere that people are being hysterical as I have yet to see it. Condolence threads can hardly be construed as hysterical surely? If thats hysterical you should see me when my cat brings in a mouse - I'd show you hysteria!

I do agree that, certainly in britain, mourning has become OTT over a well kent face but again to harp back to what I said yesterday, is that not a media thing? I dont know anybody who wants a media circus made out of Jades death or anybody elses. There obviously will be people who want commemorative issues etc but not your average punter. The media will do it as it makes money for them.

Condolence threads are a completely different issue and to say posting something like - ' my feelings go out to her family' or RIP Jade' is hysteria or OTT is OTT in itself.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Can you show me anywhere that people are being hysterical as I have yet to see it. Condolence threads can hardly be construed as hysterical surely? If thats hysterical you should see me when my cat brings in a mouse - I'd show you hysteria!

I do agree that, certainly in britain, mourning has become OTT over a well kent face but again to harp back to what I said yesterday, is that not a media thing? I dont know anybody who wants a media circus made out of Jades death or anybody elses. There obviously will be people who want commemorative issues etc but not your average punter. The media will do it as it makes money for them.

Condolence threads are a completely different issue and to say posting something like - ' my feelings go out to her family' or RIP Jade' is hysteria or OTT is OTT in itself.

There's no doubt it's the media driving these showings of grief but a lot of the public seem quite happy to go along with it.

Posting RIP is not hysterical – laying flowers at her doorstep is.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I don't know what it's been like on the streets of Danderhall but I must say it's been pretty quiet round where I stay.

As I don’t live there I don’t know. :wink:

What’s how busy a street/town got to do with OTT and hysterical people in mourning?

Maybe everyone at your bits in the house greeting?

[Jay]

There's no doubt it's the media driving these showings of grief but a lot of the public seem quite happy to go along with it.

Posting RIP is not hysterical – laying flowers at her doorstep is.

I think hysterical is a bit over the top. When I saw all the flowers at Jades house yesterday (on TV, I didn't jump on a plane, that would be hysterical) I wondered how much all of them would have cost and how the money could have gone to the McMillan nurses or some equally as good charity. Its not something I would do and I agree its a bit much for someone you never really knew but I think if thats what they want to do then there's nothing really wrong with it.

How would you view that out of interest? If people, rather than put flowers down, donated money?? Is that hysteria??

So do you agree that condolence threads are not OTT or hysterical and there is nothing wrong with having them? Which is of course how this debate all started

[Arch Stanton]

As I don’t live there I don’t know. :wink:

What’s how busy a street/town got to do with OTT and hysterical people in mourning?

Maybe everyone at your bits in the house greeting?

:brickwall

[--------]

Grief comes to us all soon enough without us going looking for it where it isn't.

[Jay]

Grief comes to us all soon enough without us going looking for it where it isn't.

Too true Mr D but is saying RIP really grief or showing respect and having sympathy with the family?

Real grief is the hardest thing a person could ever go through and from going through it, I have respect and sympathy for others going through it and see no harm in saying so.

[McSwanky]

Too true Mr D but is saying RIP really grief or showing respect and having sympathy with the family?

Right, this is the bit I don't understand.

Usually when I post on Hibs.net, I do it because I have a view about something or I want to share a (generally poor) joke or some information with people on here.

I may, in passing, have mentioned my sadness for Jade's (she's just an example here, mind) family during conversation (with real people :wink:), but I wouldn't see the point of posting a message on here. What's the purpose of the message? The family aren't going to read it. And by the sound of things, it's not about the poster's grief. So why bother?

There's clearly something I'm not getting here.

As for laying flowers outside minor celebrities' homes on their death, well that seems to me just to be stupid. Again, maybe I'm not connecting with the full facts here (although it appears that most agree with me on here).

I have been moved almost to tears by a few posts on Hibs.net by the way, I particularly remember a couple of 'from the heart' posts when a close family member of a poster has died. To me, there is a place for 'RIP threads' where they are directly relevant to people here, I just can't see how Jade Goody is.

I'm now going to blow my position out of the water by revealing that I think I did post on the Tony Hart RIP thread, but more to say how much I admired him rather than just 'condolences to the family' or 'RIP.'

Last thing: I don't think the RIP threads themselves are the right place to have this discussion, much better to have threads such as this one where we can all air our views sensibly with no outrage or knee jerk reactions.

[Jay]

Right, this is the bit I don't understand.

Usually when I post on Hibs.net, I do it because I have a view about something or I want to share a (generally poor) joke or some information with people on here.

I may, in passing, have mentioned my sadness for Jade's (she's just an example here, mind) family during conversation (with real people :wink:), but I wouldn't see the point of posting a message on here. What's the purpose of the message? The family aren't going to read it. And by the sound of things, it's not about the poster's grief. So why bother?

There's clearly something I'm not getting here.

As for laying flowers outside minor celebrities' homes on their death, well that seems to me just to be stupid. Again, maybe I'm not connecting with the full facts here (although it appears that most agree with me on here).

I have been moved almost to tears by a few posts on Hibs.net by the way, I particularly remember a couple of 'from the heart' posts when a close family member of a poster has died. To me, there is a place for 'RIP threads' where they are directly relevant to people here, I just can't see how Jade Goody is.

I'm now going to blow my position out of the water by revealing that I think I did post on the Tony Hart RIP thread, but more to say how much I admired him rather than just 'condolences to the family' or 'RIP.'

Last thing: I don't think the RIP threads themselves are the right place to have this discussion, much better to have threads such as this one where we can all air our views sensibly with no outrage or knee jerk reactions.

Quick post as I am going on the school run and unlikely to be back on for a good few hours.

I agree with your sentiments that a thread like this is a better place to have these discussions.

I think RIP threads are more for people discussing there feelings on someones passing rather than expecting it to be read by anybody connected with the passing. Its not about the posters grief I think its more about the poster wanting to show some respect or sympathy (I think I may have mentioned that before :greengrin) I certainly cant say I am grieving for Jade Goody but I can certainly feel sympathy for her and her family.

Maybe its about the wording then if the Tony Hart one was ok :confused: I dont know but I still dont see the harm in it.

[Flynn]

There should be a minutes silence or applause (maybe both) at all the upcoming spl games for the to mark the "tragedy" of this "role model" dying. If this doesn't happen there should be an outcry. How dare they ignore this momentous event.

As a mark of respect the following could be organised:

Mothers day should now be known as "Jade Goody day."

23rd of March should be a national holiday for bin men and women across the country.

All trivial non-news stories such as famines, wars and natural disasters should be replaced by far more important stories about what z-list "celebrities" get up to in their private lives.

All documentary, news and educational programmes to be banned on 23rd march every year as a tribute to Jade.

March 23rd to be heralded as a national day for the mentally challenged and racists.

:bye:


PS Tony Hart was actually respected by lots of people. Deservedly so. Unlike someone else.

[Sir David Gray]

I am not demanding anything. But I am always uncomfortable with censorship. I believe I should be able to make my own judgements about what I should and shouldn't read without others making them for me.

I don't know if the comments were, as you put it, out of order and vile, as I didn't get to read them.

I actually agree with you here.

I was actually thinking about this last night after I saw the other thread getting closed. I don't know whether this can happen or not so please bear with me. But is it possible to ban individual people from individual threads? (Perhaps that is a question that maybe an admin could answer). If it is, that would surely be a better alternative to completely closing a thread.

From what I remember, it was only two or three posters who really overstepped the mark one of which, I understand, has now been banned, so they obviously wouldn't be posting again.

Some people were critical of Jade Goody but, because she was a fairly controversial character, that has to be expected. I would hate to think that people would 'do a Sun' and call her all the names under the sun (no pun intended) when she was living but as soon as she dies, there is a huge outpouring of grief. That would be hypocritical in the extreme.

Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I hate seeing threads getting pulled because of a minority of "distasteful" posts. If something illegal is posted or people are making remarks that could get Hibs.net into trouble then that is entirely different and I fully understand why such threads have to be removed.

As I said on the Jade Goody thread, I would not wish her illness on anyone and the people I really feel sorry for are her two little boys, who will have to grow up without their mother.

In terms of public mourning, I think it does go too far sometimes. People may have been fond of her, but to go to her house and leave flowers or other gifts for someone that you do not know, is a bit much for me. Although in saying that, if that's what you want to do, then that's your choice, it's just not really my cup of tea.

I'm sorry that she had cancer, i'm sorry that she died so young and, most of all, i'm sorry that two young boys are now motherless.

[Danderhall Hibs]

How would you view that out of interest? If people, rather than put flowers down, donated money?? Is that hysteria??


No. Why would it be? If I donated money to charity (which I might) I wouldn’t feel the need to let everyone know about it.

[Danderhall Hibs]

:brickwall

I’m lost here – no idea what you’re going on about. Can anyone help?

[McSwanky]

There should be a minutes silence or applause (maybe both) at all the upcoming spl games for the to mark the "tragedy" of this "role model" dying. If this doesn't happen there should be an outcry. How dare they ignore this momentous event.

As a mark of respect the following could be organised:

Mothers day should now be known as "Jade Goody day."

23rd of March should be a national holiday for bin men and women across the country.

All trivial non-news stories such as famines, wars and natural disasters should be replaced by far more important stories about what z-list "celebrities" get up to in their private lives.

All documentary, news and educational programmes to be banned on 23rd march every year as a tribute to Jade.

March 23rd to be heralded as a national day for the mentally challenged and racists.

:bye:


PS Tony Hart was actually respected by lots of people. Deservedly so. Unlike someone else.

It's people like you that make me want to change my mind.

This sort of vitriol is uncalled for.

[Jay]

No. Why would it be? If I donated money to charity (which I might) I wouldn’t feel the need to let everyone know about it.

But its surely the same thing. Putting flowers down to show your repects after someone has died or donating money to the charity related to the persons death. Surely its no different apart from personal taste. you are still showing your respect and sympathy towards the person.

[Arch Stanton]

It would appear that this thread has reached a nice chummy consensus on emotional health issues and about keeping your feelings to yourself, so perhaps we could extend it to other areas of health.

Like doing weights at the gym - always remember to keep your legs straight as real men would never think of bending their knees to lift things.

And then there's guys over 40 who start having difficulty peeing - just remember that a real man would never dream of bothering the doctor with anything so trivial - if you just put up with it then it will get better all by itself.

It may though be prudent for admins to advise that any health advice given on these forums may not actually be correct.

[McSwanky]

It would appear that this thread has reached a nice chummy consensus on emotional health issues and about keeping your feelings to yourself, so perhaps we could extend it to other areas of health.

Like doing weights at the gym - always remember to keep your legs straight as real men would never think of bending their knees to lift things.

And then there's guys over 40 who start having difficulty peeing - just remember that a real man would never dream of bothering the doctor with anything so trivial - if you just put up with it then it will get better all by itself.

It may though be prudent for admins to advise that any health advice given on these forums may not actually be correct.

Is there a point to your post? Because if there is, it's gone right over my head.

[BravestHibs]

For me the thing that grates about people posting their messages of 'respect' or 'sympathies' is the fact that they wouldn't have been doing it if it hadn't been on the front of the papers. It's almost as though they feel bound to do it and that if they didn't it would somehow reflect badly on them. It's ALMOST as though they are responding to an advertisement. Before anyone starts screaming about how they did it for this reason or that reason I should say that this is merely the PERCEPTION that I have.

If you look at Dianas death and the subsequent outpouring of grief, at the time, I can't remember exactly how long after Dianas death it was, Mother Theresa also died. Now I don't think that there could be a right minded individual who could argue with the fact that Mother Theresa was more deserving of respect and sympathies than Diana, yet the Diana story raged on and on and everyone seemed to forget about Mother Theresa. There were flower MOUNTAINS piling up for Diana not to mention the idiots, yes idiots, from middle England, America and even Australia travelling to London to sign a book in her memory. Put it this way, if a product, recieved as much coverage as Diana did, and our currency was flowers then it would have blown the sales of every Apple product in the country out of the water.

Another thing that annoys me, there are people dying everyday, through all kinds of horrible diseases, Ebola virus, Malaria, Dengue fever. As well as from being the victims of genocide. These and many others are the diseases situations that need people to raise awareness for, not Cancer, which if you aren't aware of, then you probably have other more pressing matters to deal with before you turn your attentions to it. And I'm not saying that a rise in Smear tests or whatever it was attributed to the 'Jade effect' is a bad thing, obviously even if she saved one life then that is a good thing. (To be honest I can't believe I even have to write that but I do) What I'm saying is that there other people much, much more deserving of your sympathies then Jade Goody and that's not to say you shouldn't have any celebrity RIP threads but I think there should be a modicum of parity and of awareness about what is just a shame and what is a tragedy.

[marinello59]

I am not demanding anything. But I am always uncomfortable with censorship. I believe I should be able to make my own judgements about what I should and shouldn't read without others making them for me.
I don't know if the comments were, as you put it, out of order and vile, as I didn't get to read them.
It's a no win situation for us though. You want to see every comment no matter what. Others want us to remove the more offensive stuff. What we strive to do is keep this a respectful and family friendly place for all whilst trying to ensure that the more robust posters can get their message across too. Not perfect for everybody but hopefully the best fit for all.

[Arch Stanton]

Is there a point to your post? Because if there is, it's gone right over my head.

Thats what denial does for you - it creates blind spots.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Thats what denial does for you - it creates blind spots.

I'd say you're still grieving and maybe best left to get on with it.

Otherwise I've no idea what I/we are in denial about.

[Jay]

For me the thing that grates about people posting their messages of 'respect' or 'sympathies' is the fact that they wouldn't have been doing it if it hadn't been on the front of the papers. It's almost as though they feel bound to do it and that if they didn't it would somehow reflect badly on them. It's ALMOST as though they are responding to an advertisement. Before anyone starts screaming about how they did it for this reason or that reason I should say that this is merely the PERCEPTION that I have.

If you look at Dianas death and the subsequent outpouring of grief, at the time, I can't remember exactly how long after Dianas death it was, Mother Theresa also died. Now I don't think that there could be a right minded individual who could argue with the fact that Mother Theresa was more deserving of respect and sympathies than Diana, yet the Diana story raged on and on and everyone seemed to forget about Mother Theresa. There were flower MOUNTAINS piling up for Diana not to mention the idiots, yes idiots, from middle England, America and even Australia travelling to London to sign a book in her memory. Put it this way, if a product, recieved as much coverage as Diana did, and our currency was flowers then it would have blown the sales of every Apple product in the country out of the water.

Another thing that annoys me, there are people dying everyday, through all kinds of horrible diseases, Ebola virus, Malaria, Dengue fever. As well as from being the victims of genocide. These and many others are the diseases situations that need people to raise awareness for, not Cancer, which if you aren't aware of, then you probably have other more pressing matters to deal with before you turn your attentions to it. And I'm not saying that a rise in Smear tests or whatever it was attributed to the 'Jade effect' is a bad thing, obviously even if she saved one life then that is a good thing. (To be honest I can't believe I even have to write that but I do) What I'm saying is that there other people much, much more deserving of your sympathies then Jade Goody and that's not to say you shouldn't have any celebrity RIP threads but I think there should be a modicum of parity and of awareness about what is just a shame and what is a tragedy.

wow! Are you saying that Cancer is not deserving of our attentions?? I agree there are loads of things we need to turn attention to but Cancer has to be one of them surely - in this country it must be one of the biggest killers. Jades condition brought awareness, not of the Cancer but of the fact that she was so young and got it.

I find the second bit a bit shocking to be honest. I dont pick and choose who I sympathise with - I have plenty to go round. :agree: Did you watch comic relief?? I know there are many who need their plight brought to our attentions and many who deserve sympathy but I find it dificult to understand why I need to choose somebody over Jades family to feel sorry for. I dont spend my life outpouring sympathy and grief on everybody but I think the majority of us can feel for many different situations all at once.

[Arch Stanton]

For me the thing that grates about people posting their messages of 'respect' or 'sympathies' is the fact that they wouldn't have been doing it if it hadn't been on the front of the papers. It's almost as though they feel bound to do it and that if they didn't it would somehow reflect badly on them. It's ALMOST as though they are responding to an advertisement. Before anyone starts screaming about how they did it for this reason or that reason I should say that this is merely the PERCEPTION that I have.

If you look at Dianas death and the subsequent outpouring of grief, at the time, I can't remember exactly how long after Dianas death it was, Mother Theresa also died. Now I don't think that there could be a right minded individual who could argue with the fact that Mother Theresa was more deserving of respect and sympathies than Diana, yet the Diana story raged on and on and everyone seemed to forget about Mother Theresa. There were flower MOUNTAINS piling up for Diana not to mention the idiots, yes idiots, from middle England, America and even Australia travelling to London to sign a book in her memory. Put it this way, if a product, recieved as much coverage as Diana did, and our currency was flowers then it would have blown the sales of every Apple product in the country out of the water.

Another thing that annoys me, there are people dying everyday, through all kinds of horrible diseases, Ebola virus, Malaria, Dengue fever. As well as from being the victims of genocide. These and many others are the diseases situations that need people to raise awareness for, not Cancer, which if you aren't aware of, then you probably have other more pressing matters to deal with before you turn your attentions to it. And I'm not saying that a rise in Smear tests or whatever it was attributed to the 'Jade effect' is a bad thing, obviously even if she saved one life then that is a good thing. (To be honest I can't believe I even have to write that but I do) What I'm saying is that there other people much, much more deserving of your sympathies then Jade Goody and that's not to say you shouldn't have any celebrity RIP threads but I think there should be a modicum of parity and of awareness about what is just a shame and what is a tragedy.

Clearly your perception about it being driven by the media is wrong - the RIP thread was closed at 9:30 last night which must be before any of the earliest editions could have had the story. It might be easier for you to rationalise all this by characterising me as mindless tool of the gutter press but I'm afraid I would give you a hard time beffore you came close to making that stick.

The whole thing about celebrity mourning is certainly strange to behold but in other ways it is perfectly rational. I have been to a few funerals in my time - the smallest was about 6 people and the largest was several hundred (and I guess I participated in Diana's funeral in a small individual way - one of millions there) - however there was no difference in my participation as an individual in any of these. While all those individual participants are certainly there to be counted it is really of little relevance, is it?

The bald truth is that the worth of a person bears absolutely no relationship to the numbers who mourn that person's passing - never has and never will, and there is no reason for you to feel agitated that it is so. In fact, there could actually be more personal reasons why you feel that way - it is worth considering.

[Hibbyradge]

There should be a minutes silence or applause (maybe both) at all the upcoming spl games for the to mark the "tragedy" of this "role model" dying. If this doesn't happen there should be an outcry. How dare they ignore this momentous event.

As a mark of respect the following could be organised:

Mothers day should now be known as "Jade Goody day."

23rd of March should be a national holiday for bin men and women across the country.

All trivial non-news stories such as famines, wars and natural disasters should be replaced by far more important stories about what z-list "celebrities" get up to in their private lives.

All documentary, news and educational programmes to be banned on 23rd march every year as a tribute to Jade.

March 23rd to be heralded as a national day for the mentally challenged and racists.

:bye:


PS Tony Hart was actually respected by lots of people. Deservedly so. Unlike someone else.

What was the point of posting that drivel? :bitchy:

[Brizo]

Both arguements are valid to my mind.

It's clear that some people do feel the need to express sympathy with almost everyone about practically everything. This doesn't make them intrinstically better or worse people than those who choose to pick their sympathetic targets more discerningly. We would do well to remember that grieving and mourning can be as much about indulging in an essentially selfish exhibitionist need as about expressing a wider connection with society and community. (I'm NOT accussing anyone here of this.)So I think Steve was right to raise this issue, people's sentiments have been manipulated by a mawkish media which realises that product can be shifted by these urges. It was apparant with Princess Diana. They've been looking for a new Diana for some time, now have it in the unlikely form of Jade Goody.

Let me state that i've nothing against JG as a person. She had zero talent but loads of ambition, and as such was a perfect reality tv star. She manipulated her life and her death, in order to provide for her children (and perhaps satiate her own need to be in the spotlight) which many people do, and probably did more good than harm, especially in raising awareness of cervical cancer as an issue. Her 'crime' was her lack of talent, as we have historically believed that talented people have a right to media exposure and that the rest are tiresome show-offs with nothing to offer. However, I think we need to acccept that the media has become democratised, or, if you prefer, hopelessly dumbed down.

However you feel about JG as a person, we are all to degree culpable in the development of this media culture, where so many of us now seem to feel our lives are only validated by appearing on screen or in print.

Sometimes I think this need for outpourings of collective grief is a merely a symptom of mourning a deeper loss, perhaps one we subconciously feel about the society we know changing at such a rapid rate, and our own increasingly precieved lack of control at how the world is developing. If we pick inappropriate targets to invest these emotions in, it's not really their fault - it's just that our culture ensures they are ready available.

Pretty much agree with all of that.

The post Diana rise of public displays of mourning for people we dont know , never met and probably wouldnt like if we met them is one of the most obvious cultural changes ive seen in British society over the last decades.

To feel sympathy and show compassion for anyones loss should be a given of human nature. But to take that to the level of the public displays of grieving we see for people that the grievers only know through the media I find a strange phenomenom. The highlighted bits from the eloquent DBS sum that phenomenon up for me.

[Hibbyradge]

For me the thing that grates about people posting their messages of 'respect' or 'sympathies' is the fact that they wouldn't have been doing it if it hadn't been on the front of the papers.


I don't understand your point. It was on TV and in the papers. Otherwise they wouldn't have known, so how could they have felt sympathy?

Have you never felt sorrow at the death you found out about in the media?

Dunblane? Baby P? The Tsunami?





If you look at Dianas death and the subsequent outpouring of grief, at the time, I can't remember exactly how long after Dianas death it was, Mother Theresa also died. Now I don't think that there could be a right minded individual who could argue with the fact that Mother Theresa was more deserving of respect and sympathies than Diana, yet the Diana story raged on and on and everyone seemed to forget about Mother Theresa.

Diana was a young popular British woman who had captured the imagination of millions and she died tragically in a car crash.

Mother Teresa died of old age. Her passing was sad, but it was supposed to be like that.



There were flower MOUNTAINS piling up for Diana not to mention the idiots, yes idiots, from middle England, America and even Australia travelling to London to sign a book in her memory.



And Scotland, and Edinburgh.







Another thing that annoys me, there are people dying everyday, through all kinds of horrible diseases, Ebola virus, Malaria, Dengue fever. As well as from being the victims of genocide. These and many others are the diseases situations that need people to raise awareness for, not Cancer, which if you aren't aware of, then you probably have other more pressing matters to deal with before you turn your attentions to it.



Eh? Jade Goody died of cancer. Did you want her to contract something else, something more deserving of your sympathy?




What I'm saying is that there other people much, much more deserving of your sympathies then Jade Goody

That's your opinion. It may or may not be true.

But no-one knows about them cos they're not on the telly and in the papers so how can people give their sympathy?




I think there should be a modicum of parity and of awareness about what is just a shame and what is a tragedy.

I think you should get off your sanctimonious high horse and allow people to feel sympathy for the death of anyone they choose.

[Hibbyradge]

Pretty much agree with all of that.

The post Diana rise of public displays of mourning for people we dont know , never met and probably wouldnt like if we met them is one of the most obvious cultural changes ive seen in British society over the last decades.

To feel sympathy and show compassion for anyones loss should be a given of human nature. But to take that to the level of the public displays of grieving we see for people that the grievers only know through the media I find a strange phenomenom. The highlighted bits from the eloquent DBS sum that phenomenon up for me.

I agree too, up to a point.

I broke my heart when I saw the news about Dunblane.

I remember being in a hotel room in Manchester watching a documentary about the Tsunami, and I was similarly distraught.

Not only did I not know the people who had died in those events, I didn't know their names, what they looked like or anything at all about them.

I defy anyone to tell me I was engaged in some sort of mass hysteria or "mourning sickness".

Now, if I can be moved in those circumstances, is it so difficult to think that there may be others who may get sad when someone they are familiar with dies?

The TV isn't on much in my house, but I know that many TV stars are household names and are genuinely loved by many.

Diana was a case in point. Her popularity and youth combined with the circumstances of her death made it an extraordinary event. Nothing like that had happened before in my memory.

I didn't grieve, but I was genuinely shocked when I heard the news, and I was sad that she had died. Still am, actually.

That's not so difficult too understand, is it?

[Arch Stanton]

I was curious as to how our betters in Gorgie viewed all this and i came across this -


Originally Posted by shaun.lawson View Post
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...n-1651722.html


I hope you appreciate that I saved you the trouble of reading through pages of sick bile!

[Brizo]

I agree too, up to a point.

I broke my heart when I saw the news about Dunblane.

I remember being in a hotel room in Manchester watching a documentary about the Tsunami, and I was similarly distraught.

Not only did I not know the people who had died in those events, I didn't know their names, what they looked like or anything at all about them.

I defy anyone to tell me I was engaged in some sort of mass hysteria or "mourning sickness".

Now, if I can be moved in those circumstances, is it so difficult to think that there may be others who may get sad when someone they are familiar with dies?

The TV isn't on much in my house, but I know that many TV stars are household names and are genuinely loved by many.

Diana was a case in point. Her popularity and youth combined with the circumstances of her death made it an extraordinary event. Nothing like that had happened before in my memory.

I didn't grieve, but I was genuinely shocked when I heard the news, and I was sad that she had died. Still am, actually.

That's not so difficult too understand, is it?

I can fully understand people being upset and shocked by Dunblane , Tsunami . 9/11 etc. Id be very wary of anyone who wasnt upset or shocked by such tragedies.

All im saying is that I think theres a definite difference between having those feelings and then taking it to the level of taking part in public demonstrations of grief. In the latter case people may argue that they have a personal connection with say Jade Goody or Diana but its a one way connection through the media , theres no real relationship there. Thats why I personally dont get it when people become so emotionally distraught about the death of celebrity figures. Thats not to say im right and theyre wrong .... I just dont get it.

Obviously these public demonstrations fill a need in peoples lifes. Im not that old but remember when grief was very much a private thing. Why it should have changed so dramatically in late 20th century Britain is what interests me. In that regard I think DBSs post sums up the factors which have led to this change.

[BroxburnHibee]

I don't have a view on Jade Goody one way or the other. I just wanted to say that I am pleased to see this thread as it circumvents the censorship that was applied to other thread.

It would appear we need protection from offensive comments. Personally, I was and remain prepared to run the risk of being offended, but it would appear I need protection from offensive comments.

There are plenty of points I could make on this thread but as I might be all night I think I'll just settle with answering this one.

Tomsk here's what I posted last night when I closed the thread..........

"Ok guys you've all had your say.

The OP started this thread to pass condolences to someone in the public eye who had died.

Whether we knew her or her family is irrelevant.

I'm closing this thread as some of the comments have been absolutely distasteful.

If you want to have a discussion about public mourning then fair enough but no more on here."

Now 3 points there - First I pointed out why the thread had been started in the first place.

Second - I gave you the reason for closing it.

Third & last - I actually encouraged someone to start up a thread as I felt it was a good subject for discussing. Unfortunately some people took it as an excuse to post p**h (with 1 halfwit being binned for his trouble)

Now as we like to think of this place as a family friendly board, there is no way I wanted to let that thread deteriorate any more so I took the decision to close it in the hope that would nip it in the bud.

Its nothing to do with protecting you from offensive comments - its about following the forum rules, which we all have to do.

If thats censorship............then guilty as charged :wink:

Personally I don't go in for all these public shows of grief but I do not have a problem with people wanting to post RIP's in here.

I lost someone very close to me a couple of years back after a long battle with cancer so yes I did empathise with what I was reading and watching in the media. Thats just the way I am and I certainly will not apologise or feel I have to justify myself if I want to post something on here about it.

Discuss it on threads on here all you want but why can't folk who want to have an RIP thread be left in peace to get on with it.

If you don't like them then don't read them.

Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant :greengrin

[Arch Stanton]

Why it should have changed so dramatically in late 20th century Britain is what interests me. In that regard I think DBSs post sums up the factors which have led to this change.

But things haven't changed. Taking a hike round Britain's historic funeral sites will take you a lifetime - what you are talking of is a fiction.

[hibsbollah]

I can fully understand people being upset and shocked by Dunblane , Tsunami . 9/11 etc. Id be very wary of anyone who wasnt upset or shocked by such tragedies.

All im saying is that I think theres a definite difference between having those feelings and then taking it to the level of taking part in public demonstrations of grief. In the latter case people may argue that they have a personal connection with say Jade Goody or Diana but its a one way connection through the media , theres no real relationship there. Thats why I personally dont get it when people become so emotionally distraught about the death of celebrity figures. Thats not to say im right and theyre wrong .... I just dont get it.

Obviously these public demonstrations fill a need in peoples lifes. Im not that old but remember when grief was very much a private thing. Why it should have changed so dramatically in late 20th century Britain is what interests me. In that regard I think DBSs post sums up the factors which have led to this change.

Exactly:agree: If I may link to this report again http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3512447.stm I think it explains very clearly what is going on. A lot has changed, which merely counting 'historical funeral sites' doesnt reflect. It extends to things like the bouquets of flowers tied to countless lampposts to remember the dead of roadcrashes, which, pre-Diana I think, used to be limited to the top of gravestones. Of course there were public shows of remembrance and shared grief in the past, but not to the same extent and not egged on by a 24 hour news media.

[Arch Stanton]

Exactly:agree: If I may link to this report again http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3512447.stm I think it explains very clearly what is going on. A lot has changed, which merely counting 'historical funeral sites' doesnt reflect. It extends to things like the bouquets of flowers tied to countless lampposts to remember the dead of roadcrashes, which, pre-Diana I think, used to be limited to the top of gravestones. Of course there were public shows of remembrance and shared grief in the past, but not to the same extent and not egged on by a 24 hour news media.

Listen up hibsbollah - i am about to register as a charity and I too know everything there is to know about everything - just send me all your money and believe everything I say.

Wow - anen't gullible idiots much more easy to find these days!

[Hibbyradge]

Nowt new in mass grief.

John F Kennedy

Yasser Arafat

Crispin “Ka Bel” Beltran

The Pope(s)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYGrVTJkS_s

And many many more.

[Ed De Gramo]

Without wanting to pull this back to a Jade Goody thread....some of the press writings are absolutely unbelievable....the Daily Star writes that a Statue of Jade will be built in her home town....shirley someones having a giraffe....a statue of a woman that most of Britain hated a year and a half ago...:grr:

Troops die in battle and get less publicity than JG got :grr::grr:

Anyhoo, I don't believe in censorship. I think that people's views should be aired...if they don't like a certain person fair enuff....

[Arch Stanton]

Nowt new in mass grief.

John F Kennedy

Yasser Arafat

Crispin “Ka Bel” Beltran

The Pope(s)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYGrVTJkS_s

And many many more.

Valentino is worth a mention too, I'd say.

[Arch Stanton]

Without wanting to pull this back to a Jade Goody thread....some of the press writings are absolutely unbelievable....the Daily Star writes that a Statue of Jade will be built in her home town....shirley someones having a giraffe....a statue of a woman that most of Britain hated a year and a half ago...:grr:

Troops die in battle and get less publicity than JG got :grr::grr:

Anyhoo, I don't believe in censorship. I think that people's views should be aired...if they don't like a certain person fair enuff....


Wow - read it here first - the Daily Star writes p*sh. Gramo told it to you!

[Hibbyradge]

Valentino is worth a mention too, I'd say.

I hadn't thought about actors.

Marilyn Monroe.

Over 30000 fans were allowed to view Elvis Pressley's casket. Someone posted RIP Elvis on the video of his funeral (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvUUGFz9Zw4) just 3 days ago!

[Woody1985]

I don't understand your point. It was on TV and in the papers. Otherwise they wouldn't have known, so how could they have felt sympathy?

Have you never felt sorrow at the death you found out about in the media?

Dunblane? Baby P? The Tsunami?



Diana was a young popular British woman who had captured the imagination of millions and she died tragically in a car crash.

Mother Teresa died of old age. Her passing was sad, but it was supposed to be like that.



And Scotland, and Edinburgh.



Eh? Jade Goody died of cancer. Did you want her to contract something else, something more deserving of your sympathy?



That's your opinion. It may or may not be true.

But no-one knows about them cos they're not on the telly and in the papers so how can people give their sympathy?



I think you should get off your sanctimonious high horse and allow people to feel sympathy for the death of anyone they choose.

I think those are the most convincing arguements I've ever seen you put across HR. :greengrin And I understood all of them!

[Ed De Gramo]

Wow - read it here first - the Daily Star writes p*sh. Gramo told it to you!

If a statue did get built...i would happily watch it destroyed cause it wouldn't be deserved...

[Arch Stanton]

If a statue did get built...i would happily watch it destroyed cause it wouldn't be deserved...


OK so you thought it fit to make a positive post about what might have happened had the Daily Star had it's way - I am dead sure you will carry all of Hibs Net with that sentiment!

[Steve-O]

I guess each case has it merits. It may well be the hypocricy of it all that gets me, particularly in the Jade case, and a lot of it is down to the press.

Sun headlines from her first stint in Big Brother such as 'VOTE OUT THE PIG' have now changed to stories about how remarkable and brave she was :blah:

Anyway, don't want to go on about it, good to see the thread stimulated some debate on the subject, particularly when some couldn't see the point of even starting such a thread.

[Flynn]

What was the point of posting that drivel? :bitchy:

Because I felt like it, and to counterbalance all the over the top, sycophantic pish that has been in the papers and TV news programming for the last 3 months or so.

Yeah, it's tragic (for her family and friends) that someone so young has died but it should have been a private affair with friends and family. She whored her death off to the highest bidder, died without a shred of dignity and probably traumatised her kids in the process, with the press camped outside her house 24/7.

The only tragedy for me is that she never passed away childless. I shall shed no crocodile tears for someone who I believe was an erse in life and an even bigger erse in death.

[LiverpoolHibs]

For me the thing that grates about people posting their messages of 'respect' or 'sympathies' is the fact that they wouldn't have been doing it if it hadn't been on the front of the papers. It's almost as though they feel bound to do it and that if they didn't it would somehow reflect badly on them. It's ALMOST as though they are responding to an advertisement. Before anyone starts screaming about how they did it for this reason or that reason I should say that this is merely the PERCEPTION that I have.

If you look at Dianas death and the subsequent outpouring of grief, at the time, I can't remember exactly how long after Dianas death it was, Mother Theresa also died. Now I don't think that there could be a right minded individual who could argue with the fact that Mother Theresa was more deserving of respect and sympathies than Diana, yet the Diana story raged on and on and everyone seemed to forget about Mother Theresa. There were flower MOUNTAINS piling up for Diana not to mention the idiots, yes idiots, from middle England, America and even Australia travelling to London to sign a book in her memory. Put it this way, if a product, recieved as much coverage as Diana did, and our currency was flowers then it would have blown the sales of every Apple product in the country out of the water.

Another thing that annoys me, there are people dying everyday, through all kinds of horrible diseases, Ebola virus, Malaria, Dengue fever. As well as from being the victims of genocide. These and many others are the diseases situations that need people to raise awareness for, not Cancer, which if you aren't aware of, then you probably have other more pressing matters to deal with before you turn your attentions to it. And I'm not saying that a rise in Smear tests or whatever it was attributed to the 'Jade effect' is a bad thing, obviously even if she saved one life then that is a good thing. (To be honest I can't believe I even have to write that but I do) What I'm saying is that there other people much, much more deserving of your sympathies then Jade Goody and that's not to say you shouldn't have any celebrity RIP threads but I think there should be a modicum of parity and of awareness about what is just a shame and what is a tragedy.

Christopher Hitchens probably would. :wink:

[--------]

Too true Mr D but is saying RIP really grief or showing respect and having sympathy with the family?

Real grief is the hardest thing a person could ever go through and from going through it, I have respect and sympathy for others going through it and see no harm in saying so.

I think I should admit to having a very strong mixture of 'curmudgeon' on my make-up, Jill.

And also to being very unwilling to have my emotions manipulated by the media in the way the media does nowadays whenever any celebrity drops off the twig.

The message I'm receiving from these affairs is that there are those Celebrities whose lives and deaths are deemed significant by the media, and then there are the little people whose sole function is to react to the lives and deaths and moralisings of their Significant Betters.

But when I see the scenes of hysteria that surrounded Diana Spencer's funeral I do wonder just what's going on. And I also wonder what the point was of constructing the World's Largest Compost Heap just outside the gates of Buckingham Palace?

It's as if we in the West are now in the habit of going looking for something to grieve over as a way of giving our lives significance and meaning - even the spurius significance of the most tenuous of connections with someone 'celebrated' in he media as Diana Spencer was.

We're becoming obsessed with celebrity, even in death, without coming anywhere close to coming to grips with what death means for us ourselves.

As John Donne said: "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind.... And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee...."

Nowadays we're being presented with a fantasy entirely divorced from reality, and that is never healthy.

However, I would say that the 'RIP threads' are simply an electronic way for people to make their sympathy and respect known - a cyber-condolence-book, if you like. To that no reasonable man or woman should object. I certainly don't.

[Hibrandenburg]

All boils down to respect or rather lack of it in this case. If someone feels that JG or her story touched their lives then it's their good right to show their sadness/respect/grief however they feel it's appropriate.

For someone then to dis them for doing so is simply bad manners and bad taste.

JG didn't really touch my life, however I do feel empathy towards those she left behind.

[Hibbyradge]

Because I felt like it, and to counterbalance all the over the top, sycophantic pish that has been in the papers and TV news programming for the last 3 months or so.



You've got some ego if you think a few words of vitriol from you can "counterbalance all the over the top, sycophantic pish that has been in the papers and TV news programming for the last 3 months or so."



The only tragedy for me is that she never passed away childless. I shall shed no crocodile tears for someone who I believe was an erse in life and an even bigger erse in death.

You need help.

[Flynn]

You've got some ego if you think a few words of vitriol from you can "counterbalance all the over the top, sycophantic pish that has been in the papers and TV news programming for the last 3 months or so."



You need help.

I don't know if it is humanly possible to give less of a damn as to what you think of me but, quite frankly, I'm willing to give it my best shot.

Jade, in life, was only deserving of my scorn. I see no reason why that should change now just because she is dead.

Jeez, you'd think she had cured cancer rather than suffered from it with the mass hysteria the tabloids have inflicted upon us.

[--------]

I don't know if it is humanly possible to give less of a damn as to what you think of me but, quite frankly, I'm willing to give it my best shot.

Jade, in life, was only deserving of my scorn. I see no reason why that should change now just because she is dead.

Jeez, you'd think she had cured cancer rather than suffered from it with the mass hysteria the tabloids have inflicted upon us.


You're sure of that, are you?

You knew her well enough to form an accurate judgement of her life and character, did you?

You're absolutely beyond all criticism in your own life, are you?

Nothing deserving of a teeny-weeny smidgen of scorn tucked away somewhere in your conscience?

Hmm? :cool2:

IIRC the OP asked that we shouldn't descend to personal attacks on particular individuals. I rather agree with Hibby D. You have issues you need to deal with sooner rather than later, pal. That last post makes this crystal-clear.

[steakbake]

Yep, her candle burned out long before her legend ever will.

The last couple of days I have found to be quite reassuring in some ways.

I thought the run up to her death was way over the top but even her most ardent supporter would have to admit that it served a particular purpose that she was keen to fulfill. The lowest point of which had to be the OK tribute issue. Words fail me sometimes, believe it or not.

Since her death, despite the initial rent-a-quotes queuing up to have their say, it has been fairly dignified (the suggestion of a statue, aside).

Look, I think here on h/net, we like to navel gaze and beat ourselves - and each other - up about controversial posts and threads on all kinds of subjects.

But at the end of the day (to use a tired old cliche), who the fk cares what we individual posters think, they are just our opinions?

PS - to answer the original question, public mourning is pretty ridiculous. What annoys me most about it is the piety, self indulgence and mawkishness of those who throw themselves into the British form of public grief.

Be sad for the loss of people you feel you had an affinity with for whatever reason (Tony Hart, I was sad about recently, John Peel definitely) but don't expect others to share that and don't expect others to understand the depth of your feeling, whether it is misplaced or not.

[Betty Boop]

Seems Jade never had the best of starts in her life (stolen from the Bounce)Jade Koresha Lorraine Goody was born in Bermondsey on June 5 1981. Her father, of mixed race parentage, was a heroin addict and small-time pimp turned career criminal who spent most of his life behind bars, eventually dying of an overdose in the lavatory of the Kentucky Fried Chicken in Bournemouth. Her paternal grandmother, who once ran a brothel, had a crack habit. Her mother, Jackiey, the daughter of a market trader, was described in her daughter's autobiography as a petty thief and "clipper" – a woman who pretends to be a prostitute but runs off with the money instead. Jackiey threw Jade's father out of the house when Jade was 18 months old, after discovering that he had hidden guns under her cot. To add to the confusion, Jackiey herself later came out as a lesbian.

Jade rolled her first joint for her mother when she was four and she took her first puff aged five, an event celebrated by her mother in a family photograph. At about the same time Jackiey was seriously injured in a motorcycle crash and lost the use of her left arm, as a result of which Jade spent much of her childhood in the role of carer. Not that Jackiey appeared grateful. She once beat her daughter so badly she ended up in care.

Jade's schooling, not surprisingly, was chaotic. She was expelled from one school after her mother hit another mother, and from a second when her mother hit a teacher. "Most of my mates at school would arrive home to see their mum hanging out the washing or putting the dinner on," Jade recalled. "I'd come round the corner hoping not to see another police car outside the house."

It was not long before Jade began dishing out the bullying herself, once biting off a chunk of another girl's earlobe ("It wasn't a huge part of her earlobe or anything, just the tip").

As her performance on Big Brother made clear, her years of formal education had left Jade Goody with little knowledge.

[Woody1985]

Because I felt like it, and to counterbalance all the over the top, sycophantic pish that has been in the papers and TV news programming for the last 3 months or so.

Yeah, it's tragic (for her family and friends) that someone so young has died but it should have been a private affair with friends and family. She whored her death off to the highest bidder, died without a shred of dignity and probably traumatised her kids in the process, with the press camped outside her house 24/7.

The only tragedy for me is that she never passed away childless. I shall shed no crocodile tears for someone who I believe was an erse in life and an even bigger erse in death.


I said in an earlier post that people who are complaining so much about this are a little pathetic. Big deal, she sold a few stories to set up her kids for life, that's the cards she was dealt. She had the opportunity and good on her.

Big ****ing deal, you've had to put up with 3 months of pish in the media. Whoope****ingdoo. You'll have forgotten all about her in another 3 months time whilst all the time her kids are without a mum. Maybe her kids will be really proud, thankful and respectful that she put their needs and her love for them before what some ********s who can't be arsed with seeing her face in the media think.

As for press camping outside her door, that was always gonna happen from the moment it was announced she had cancer regardless of whether she sold a few stories. That's how she got famous FFS.

[Woody1985]

I don't know if it is humanly possible to give less of a damn as to what you think of me but, quite frankly, I'm willing to give it my best shot.

Jade, in life, was only deserving of my scorn. I see no reason why that should change now just because she is dead.

Jeez, you'd think she had cured cancer rather than suffered from it with the mass hysteria the tabloids have inflicted upon us.

She may not have done that but there have been thousands of people who have gone for tests on the back of her publicity.

There's already been stories of people who have been diagnosed with early signs of the disease who had said they would never have went if it wasn't for the publicity, or certainly not as soon as they did.

[Hibbyradge]

Seems Jade never had the best of starts in her life (stolen from the Bounce)Jade Koresha Lorraine Goody was born in Bermondsey on June 5 1981. Her father, of mixed race parentage, was a heroin addict and small-time pimp turned career criminal who spent most of his life behind bars, eventually dying of an overdose in the lavatory of the Kentucky Fried Chicken in Bournemouth. Her paternal grandmother, who once ran a brothel, had a crack habit. Her mother, Jackiey, the daughter of a market trader, was described in her daughter's autobiography as a petty thief and "clipper" – a woman who pretends to be a prostitute but runs off with the money instead. Jackiey threw Jade's father out of the house when Jade was 18 months old, after discovering that he had hidden guns under her cot. To add to the confusion, Jackiey herself later came out as a lesbian.

Jade rolled her first joint for her mother when she was four and she took her first puff aged five, an event celebrated by her mother in a family photograph. At about the same time Jackiey was seriously injured in a motorcycle crash and lost the use of her left arm, as a result of which Jade spent much of her childhood in the role of carer. Not that Jackiey appeared grateful. She once beat her daughter so badly she ended up in care.

Jade's schooling, not surprisingly, was chaotic. She was expelled from one school after her mother hit another mother, and from a second when her mother hit a teacher. "Most of my mates at school would arrive home to see their mum hanging out the washing or putting the dinner on," Jade recalled. "I'd come round the corner hoping not to see another police car outside the house."

It was not long before Jade began dishing out the bullying herself, once biting off a chunk of another girl's earlobe ("It wasn't a huge part of her earlobe or anything, just the tip").

As her performance on Big Brother made clear, her years of formal education had left Jade Goody with little knowledge.

Before you posted that, all I knew about Jade Goody was the fact that she said something daft (I know not what) on Big Brother, possibly twice, which I also found out on here.

Oh, and the fact that she died of cancer leaving two 4 uear old children behind, which I also found out on here.

There seems to be a whole load of people who soak up all the tabloids have to offer so they can nurse their wrath and fuel their jealous hatred.

I can imagine them now. Give me that paper so I can hate, hate , hate. :grr:

Frankly, it's pathetic.

I'm not grieving for her and I won't go looking for information about her, but if folk want to show their respects, in whatever way they choose, then I see no harm in that at all.

However, the information in the post above suggests that she is more deserving of pity and sympathy that scorn.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Before you posted that, all I knew about Jade Goody was the fact that she said something daft (I know not what) on Big Brother, possibly twice, which I also found out on here.

Oh, and the fact that she died of cancer leaving two 4 uear old children behind, which I also found out on here.

There seems to be a whole load of people who soak up all the tabloids have to offer so they can nurse their wrath and fuel their jealous hatred.

I can imagine them now. Give me that paper so I can hate, hate , hate. :grr:

Frankly, it's pathetic.

I'm not grieving for her and I won't go looking for information about her, but if folk want to show their respects, in whatever way they choose, then I see no harm in that at all.

However, the information in the post above suggests that she is more deserving of pity and sympathy that scorn.


This thread's not about Jade (well at least I don't think it was intended for her).

I'm sure there's a Jade thread elsewhere that this could be posted on? :devil:

[BroxburnHibee]

Because I felt like it, and to counterbalance all the over the top, sycophantic pish that has been in the papers and TV news programming for the last 3 months or so.

Yeah, it's tragic (for her family and friends) that someone so young has died but it should have been a private affair with friends and family. She whored her death off to the highest bidder, died without a shred of dignity and probably traumatised her kids in the process, with the press camped outside her house 24/7.

The only tragedy for me is that she never passed away childless. I shall shed no crocodile tears for someone who I believe was an erse in life and an even bigger erse in death.

Like everyone your entitled to your opinion but that comment is exactly the kind of thing that led to the last thread being closed.

I'm not deleting it though ...........I'll leave it so others can read what an utter idiot you are.

[matty_f]

My thoughts on the subject are that if folk feel that they want to express their condolences then they should be left to it. It's completely harmless and while I don't think it's especially respectful, it's certainly not disrespectful.

What is disrespectful is when people feel the need to take a pop at the deceased on the condolence thread. IMHO, those that want to leave a RIP message should be able to do so, if someone wants to slate someone that's died - start another thread on it.

I don't get the whole public grief thing in some cases (though I totally do in others - Dunblane was mentioned earlier - having kids of my own now, I still get upset at the thought of how horrendous that was).

I think the main thing here is to live and let live (no pun intended) with the condolence threads. They're not offensive, they do no harm, and for the people that want to post on them they offer an opportunity to do so. Nobody's forcing anyone to read them or post on them, so i really don't see what the big deal is.

[Dashing Bob S]

My thoughts on the subject are that if folk feel that they want to express their condolences then they should be left to it. It's completely harmless and while I don't think it's especially respectful, it's certainly not disrespectful.

What is disrespectful is when people feel the need to take a pop at the deceased on the condolence thread. IMHO, those that want to leave a RIP message should be able to do so, if someone wants to slate someone that's died - start another thread on it.

I don't get the whole public grief thing in some cases (though I totally do in others - Dunblane was mentioned earlier - having kids of my own now, I still get upset at the thought of how horrendous that was).

I think the main thing here is to live and let live (no pun intended) with the condolence threads. They're not offensive, they do no harm, and for the people that want to post on them they offer an opportunity to do so. Nobody's forcing anyone to read them or post on them, so i really don't see what the big deal is.

Totally agree, Matty. I think you make a good point distinguishing the Jade-media thing from events like Dunblane.

While the Jade RIP threads aren't inherently offensive, I think a lot of people are troubled by them precisely because they percieve them to cheapen and dilute what they see as appropriate public grief over things like Dunblane. People distinguish between 'natural' public grief - a massacre of children by a lunatic, and what they (rightly or wrongly) view as 'manufactured' public grief - a reality TV 'star' who few of us would know existed outside of a game show.

I think people have the right to 'grieve' about such scenario's, but others (and thank god in a democracy) have the right to say 'this is a little bit crazy, we might just be going to hell in a handbasket.'

[matty_f]

Totally agree, Matty. I think you make a good point distinguishing the Jade-media thing from events like Dunblane.

While the Jade RIP threads aren't inherently offensive, I think a lot of people are troubled by them precisely because they percieve them to cheapen and dilute what they see as appropriate public grief over things like Dunblane. People distinguish between 'natural' public grief - a massacre of children by a lunatic, and what they (rightly or wrongly) view as 'manufactured' public grief - a reality TV 'star' who few of us would know existed outside of a game show.

I think people have the right to 'grieve' about such scenario's, but others (and thank god in a democracy) have the right to say 'this is a little bit crazy, we might just be going to hell in a handbasket.'

:agree: Agree with all of that DBS.

[Hibbyradge]

Totally agree, Matty. I think you make a good point distinguishing the Jade-media thing from events like Dunblane.

While the Jade RIP threads aren't inherently offensive, I think a lot of people are troubled by them precisely because they percieve them to cheapen and dilute what they see as appropriate public grief over things like Dunblane. People distinguish between 'natural' public grief - a massacre of children by a lunatic, and what they (rightly or wrongly) view as 'manufactured' public grief - a reality TV 'star' who few of us would know existed outside of a game show.
I think people have the right to 'grieve' about such scenario's, but others (and thank god in a democracy) have the right to say 'this is a little bit crazy, we might just be going to hell in a handbasket.'


:agree: Agree with all of that DBS.

That's a value judgement.

There will be people who are more upset by the death of a celebrity than events like Dunblane, Tsunami etc. purely because there is a perceived personal connection.

I don't think we can go around telling people what they can and can't value.

Some people are more upset when animals die, or are hurt, than humans. There is no point telling them that they are wrong because that's how they are.

We all have our own beliefs and values. And that's what they are - our own.

[flash]

That's a value judgement.

There will be people who are more upset by the death of a celebrity than events like Dunblane, Tsunami etc. purely because there is a perceived personal connection.



Indeed there will be and that is precisely why we have the society, or lack of, we so richly deserve.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Excellent article here (http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.2498433.0.tears_of_a_crowd.php) that discusses how we've become obsessed with grieving and how ridiculous the country's becoming because of it.

[steakbake]

Excellent article here (http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.2498433.0.tears_of_a_crowd.php) that discusses how we've become obsessed with grieving and how ridiculous the country's becoming because of it.

Nail on head. A very good article.

[Steve-O]

The Jade story just got stranger - http://entertainment.uk.msn.com/celebrity/news/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=15544397&GT1=61504

[Phil D. Rolls]

I hate those pathetic road side tributes, such as a bunch of flowers marking a crash site. Why should I be constantly reminded of others sorrow, and the fact that life is temporary? There are places to grieve and places to live. Let's grieve properly and live properly - most of all, let's try to keep our own pain and loss in kilter with what is happening on the rest of the planet.

Interestingly enough, in the common sense, non-pc, good old days, society had codes and protocols for mourning. Some of them actually made sense and fitted in properly with the grieving process. My feeling is that nowadays, people are getting too caught up in the show business side of things, and not going through the psychological stages properly.

I believe that a lot of thought and introspection is part of coming to terms with loss. I don't think the modern approach allows it, and as a result people are made to feel like they should get on with it a lot quicker than they feel able to.

Maybe that's why there is such a rush to mourn public figures, or people who die that had nothing to do with us. Maybe people are taking the chance to relive their own bereavement and address issues that remain by some kind of proxy.

This stuff may not be popular, but these are my feelings. I have as much right to voice them as people do to make me feel sad when I am enjoying myself out in the country, or in a park.

[Peevemor]

I hate those pathetic road side tributes, such as a bunch of flowers marking a crash site. Why should I be constantly reminded of others sorrow, and the fact that life is temporary? There are places to grieve and places to live. Let's grieve properly and live properly - most of all, let's try to keep our own pain and loss in kilter with what is happening on the rest of the planet.

I don't know if they do it in the UK now, but here they put full size black people shaped cut outs at the roadside where there have been fatal accidents. Obviously it's nothing to do with mourning, but it does work as a reminder to "levez le pied".

[Phil D. Rolls]

I don't know if they do it in the UK now, but here they put full size black people shaped cut outs at the roadside where there have been fatal accidents. Obviously it's nothing to do with mourning, but it does work as a reminder to "levez le pied".

That is not a problem. A sign saying "300 casualties in the last five years" is a similar thing. At least then all you have to think about is safety, but these bunches of flowers say so much more, and I don't think it is fair for people to throw their sadness in others' faces.