First degree murder

[hibiedude]

CAGED murderer Patrick Nicol is allowed to swan around at university — after being let out of prison to study for a degree.

Knife maniac Nicol, 27, is being released daily from a top-security nick to travel to his economics lectures.

The killer is getting his uni education at Napier in Edinburgh while serving a minimum of 12 years for stabbing a man more than 100 times. :grr:

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/article2233143.ece

Who said crime dosen't pay

[Mike777]

this is a joke, i take it thats my money thats paying him to attend.

so really his sentance was "12 years with a 4 year coourse at one of Edinburgh's most popular Uni's"

[Darth Hibbie]

I am still paying for my degree and now having to pay for his at the same time.

Its just wrong :grr:

[Killiehibbie]

Let him study for a degree from The Open University funded by himself. Work to be done in his cell at night after he has sewn a few mail bags or whatever they do during the day .

[steakbake]

Let him study for a degree from The Open University funded by himself. Work to be done in his cell at night after he has sewn a few mail bags or whatever they do during the day .

Play pool and avoid the showers.

Absolutely agree with this. He's given up his right to liberty when he murdered someone. If we wants to study, Open University is perfect for such situations.

[Dashing Bob S]

Disagree. It's hard to take on one level, but he's obviously trying to change and make something out of his life.

Coming out with an education and a good degree gives him status, opportunity and self-esteem, increases his chance of employment and makes him less likely to offend again.

Locking him in a cage for 15 years won't improve him - he'll only go out and do the same sort of thing again.

He can come out a clued-up guy with qualifications, and develop the discipline to undergo a long and demanding course of study, increasing his communication skills and capacity for abstract thought, or he can come out the same brutalised, institutionalised jakey he was when he went in.

Sorry, but it's a no-brainer for me.

[hibsbollah]

Disagree. It's hard to take on one level, but he's obviously trying to change and make something out of his life.

Coming out with an education and a good degree gives him status, opportunity and self-esteem, increases his chance of employment and makes him less likely to offend again.

Locking him in a cage for 15 years won't improve him - he'll only go out and do the same sort of thing again.

He can come out a clued-up guy with qualifications, and develop the discipline to undergo a long and demanding course of study, increasing his communication skills and capacity for abstract thought, or he can come out the same brutalised, institutionalised jakey he was when he went in.

Sorry, but it's a no-brainer for me.

:top marks:agree:

[Pete]

Disagree. It's hard to take on one level, but he's obviously trying to change and make something out of his life.

Coming out with an education and a good degree gives him status, opportunity and self-esteem, increases his chance of employment and makes him less likely to offend again.

Locking him in a cage for 15 years won't improve him - he'll only go out and do the same sort of thing again.

He can come out a clued-up guy with qualifications, and develop the discipline to undergo a long and demanding course of study, increasing his communication skills and capacity for abstract thought, or he can come out the same brutalised, institutionalised jakey he was when he went in.

Sorry, but it's a no-brainer for me.

I agree that he should be allowed to study for a degree but it's the fact he's being allowed out to do it that irks me. He shouldn't see the outside of prison for his whole sentence as far as I'm concerned.

There's surely other alternatives to being allowed out daily to mix and flirt with other students.

A more sensitive approach would be a discount on expensive open university fees for him and other prisoners who have proved they genuinely want to move forward. This would probably cost less than the security fees being paid to his escorts.

Letting serious criminals out for any reason before their sentence is finished is a slap in the face to the victims and their families...people who the justice system should take into consideration more than they do at present.

[Hibrandenburg]

Disagree. It's hard to take on one level, but he's obviously trying to change and make something out of his life.

Coming out with an education and a good degree gives him status, opportunity and self-esteem, increases his chance of employment and makes him less likely to offend again.

Locking him in a cage for 15 years won't improve him - he'll only go out and do the same sort of thing again.

He can come out a clued-up guy with qualifications, and develop the discipline to undergo a long and demanding course of study, increasing his communication skills and capacity for abstract thought, or he can come out the same brutalised, institutionalised jakey he was when he went in.

Sorry, but it's a no-brainer for me.

Sorry but I feel it sends out the wrong message. If someone wants to change their life for the better but don't have the funds/opportunity, then all they have to do is go out and knife someone and all will be taken care of.

People shouldn't be given advantages in life for commiting crimes.

[New Corrie]

Disagree. It's hard to take on one level, but he's obviously trying to change and make something out of his life.

Coming out with an education and a good degree gives him status, opportunity and self-esteem, increases his chance of employment and makes him less likely to offend again.

Locking him in a cage for 15 years won't improve him - he'll only go out and do the same sort of thing again.

He can come out a clued-up guy with qualifications, and develop the discipline to undergo a long and demanding course of study, increasing his communication skills and capacity for abstract thought, or he can come out the same brutalised, institutionalised jakey he was when he went in.

Sorry, but it's a no-brainer for me.


As usual no mention or thoughts for the victim and his family.

[Hibee_Lisa]

Play pool and avoid the showers.

Absolutely agree with this. He's given up his right to liberty when he murdered someone. If we wants to study, Open University is perfect for such situations.


My bf is in his class.

Hes already completed a 5 year open university course, and I guess he proved he wanted to better himself. Now as for the payment, any scottish student can apply for SAAS. They will pay for the course. At least he is showing a willingness to prepare himself for whenever he is released.
By no means am I saying what he done was acceptable just merely mentioning he's trying to better himself.
I can understand the family outrage but as it stands he is going to be released at somepoint and atleast hes coming out with possibly 2 undergraduate degrees.

[Dashing Bob S]

I agree that he should be allowed to study for a degree but it's the fact he's being allowed out to do it that irks me. He shouldn't see the outside of prison for his whole sentence as far as I'm concerned.

There's surely other alternatives to being allowed out daily to mix and flirt with other students.

A more sensitive approach would be a discount on expensive open university fees for him and other prisoners who have proved they genuinely want to move forward. This would probably cost less than the security fees being paid to his escorts.

Letting serious criminals out for any reason before their sentence is finished is a slap in the face to the victims and their families...people who the justice system should take into consideration more than they do at present.

Most people will tell you that the really great thing about student life is the social side, and that includes contact with members of the opposite sex. I could think of no punishment greater than being able to flirt and converse with a girl and then having to go back to the cell with no opportunity to develop a further relationship. I'd personally rather do the OU route than subject myself to that that torture. I also think the 'flirting' thing is tabloid garbage.

[Dashing Bob S]

As usual no mention or thoughts for the victim and his family.

No, but I know that there's absolutely nothing that I or anybody else can say that will bring the victim back or allieviate their pain and suffering. I've personally lost someone close in tragic circumstances, I know that for me to express sympathy with people I don't know sounds a bit futile and hollow, and an exercise in self-righteousness. I'd personally much rather people made sure it didn't happen than indulge themselves in proxy sorrow on my behalf.

I'm more concerned with making sure that when this chap comes out of prison, he does so as the best possible version of himself he can be, and is therefore in a position do society some good, rather than the twisted, brain-dead, sectarian mutant he was when he went in, and who would be sure to wreack more misery on innocent people.

As somebody has stated, he has already made a considerable journey in self-rehabilitation, and his further efforts to make something of himself should be encouraged rather than sneered at and condemned.

[--------]

No, but I know that there's absolutely nothing that I or anybody else can say that will bring the victim back or allieviate their pain and suffering. I've personally lost someone close in tragic circumstances, I know that for me to express sympathy with people I don't know sounds a bit futile and hollow, and an exercise in self-righteousness. I'd personally much rather people made sure it didn't happen than indulge themselves in proxy sorrow on my behalf.

I'm more concerned with making sure that when this chap comes out of prison, he does so as the best possible version of himself he can be, and is therefore in a position do society some good, rather than the twisted, brain-dead, sectarian mutant he was when he went in, and who would be sure to wreack more misery on innocent people.

As somebody has stated, he has already made a considerable journey in self-rehabilitation, and his further efforts to make something of himself should be encouraged rather than sneered at and condemned.


:top marks

[Ally]

What I don't understand is how he only got a 12 year sentence for stabbing somebody 100 times. By all means let him study for a degree in prison but in my opinion he should never be allowed out anyway so it doesn't really matter.

[Hibrandenburg]

No, but I know that there's absolutely nothing that I or anybody else can say that will bring the victim back or allieviate their pain and suffering. I've personally lost someone close in tragic circumstances, I know that for me to express sympathy with people I don't know sounds a bit futile and hollow, and an exercise in self-righteousness. I'd personally much rather people made sure it didn't happen than indulge themselves in proxy sorrow on my behalf.

I'm more concerned with making sure that when this chap comes out of prison, he does so as the best possible version of himself he can be, and is therefore in a position do society some good, rather than the twisted, brain-dead, sectarian mutant he was when he went in, and who would be sure to wreack more misery on innocent people.

As somebody has stated, he has already made a considerable journey in self-rehabilitation, and his further efforts to make something of himself should be encouraged rather than sneered at and condemned.

Maybe you just ignored my post Bob or couldn't answer it, I don't know. But why should someone doing time for murder be given better opportunities than someone who's unemployed or in a dead end job?

[hibsbollah]

No, but I know that there's absolutely nothing that I or anybody else can say that will bring the victim back or allieviate their pain and suffering. I've personally lost someone close in tragic circumstances, I know that for me to express sympathy with people I don't know sounds a bit futile and hollow, and an exercise in self-righteousness. I'd personally much rather people made sure it didn't happen than indulge themselves in proxy sorrow on my behalf.

I'm more concerned with making sure that when this chap comes out of prison, he does so as the best possible version of himself he can be, and is therefore in a position do society some good, rather than the twisted, brain-dead, sectarian mutant he was when he went in, and who would be sure to wreack more misery on innocent people.

As somebody has stated, he has already made a considerable journey in self-rehabilitation, and his further efforts to make something of himself should be encouraged rather than sneered at and condemned.

Great post:agree:

[Storar]

Maybe you just ignored my post Bob or couldn't answer it, I don't know. But why should someone doing time for murder be given better opportunities than someone who's unemployed or in a dead end job?

There's nothing stopping the unemployed person or the person in the dead end job to go out there and do the same though.

[JoeT]

There's nothing stopping the unemployed person or the person in the dead end job to go out there and do the same though.

time and money would stop most

[Hibrandenburg]

time and money would stop most

Exactly :agree:

[Ally]

time and money would stop most

Not really, the unemployed hardly have a lack of time and if they haven't undertaken a degree before SAAS will fund it.

[--------]

Is it not possibly a question of whether the purpose of the judicial system is revenge, or punishment with the possiblity of rehabilitation?

[Dashing Bob S]

Exactly :agree:

Yes, there ARE inequities within our society. This to me is a broader debate about redistribution of wealth and the extension of genuine educational opportunity rather than about this particular case.

[hibiedude]

Disagree. It's hard to take on one level, but he's obviously trying to change and make something out of his life.

Coming out with an education and a good degree gives him status, opportunity and self-esteem, increases his chance of employment and makes him less likely to offend again.

Locking him in a cage for 15 years won't improve him - he'll only go out and do the same sort of thing again.

He can come out a clued-up guy with qualifications, and develop the discipline to undergo a long and demanding course of study, increasing his communication skills and capacity for abstract thought, or he can come out the same brutalised, institutionalised jakey he was when he went in.

Sorry, but it's a no-brainer for me.

Drunken Nicol pounced on George Reid, who was wearing a Celtic shirt, near his home after someone had earlier accidentally burned his new Rangers top while lighting a cigarette in a bar.

Knifed over a 100 times for what ? it's a no-brainer for me let him rot inside

[Dashing Bob S]

Drunken Nicol pounced on George Reid, who was wearing a Celtic shirt, near his home after someone had earlier accidentally burned his new Rangers top while lighting a cigarette in a bar.

Knifed over a 100 times for what ? it's a no-brainer for me let him rot inside

Sentences are finite. Whatever you or I think about it, he will be released from prison. What happens when he comes out? He does exactly the same things again, because he's learned nothing. Do you want a jakey sectarian nutter with a penchant for making people into pin cushions running around the community, or a university graduate who has shown that he has the self-discipline and capacity for abstract thought? I know who i'd rather next door to.

[Woody1985]

Sentences are finite. Whatever you or I think about it, he will be released from prison. What happens when he comes out? He does exactly the same things again, because he's learned nothing. Do you want a jakey sectarian nutter with a penchant for making people into pin cushions running around the community, or a university graduate who has shown that he has the self-discipline and capacity for abstract thought? I know who i'd rather next door to.

Because someone has a degree means that they're suddenly cured of murderous tendencies. Don't make me laugh.

I know there's less chance of re-offending but when someone has that capability and has already displayed it then it doesn't go away....

I could understand if he stabbed him once in a spur of the moment but to do it over 100 times. FFS

[Dashing Bob S]

Because someone has a degree means that they're suddenly cured of murderous tendencies. Don't make me laugh.

I know there's less chance of re-offending but when someone has that capability and has already displayed it then it doesn't go away....

I could understand if he stabbed him once in a spur of the moment but to do it over 100 times. FFS

The guy certainly isn't sending out signals that he intends to re-offend. If people think he's going to be more dangerous doing this intensive course of study than sitting banged up in a cell for 23 hours swapping violent stories with nutjobs and reading 'true crime' paperbacks from the prison library, written by gloating psycho's and sleazy journos, then there's little that I or anyone else can say to convince them otherwise.

Of course there are no guarantees that he won't re-offend, but if he's denied access to education and self-improvement it's absolutely ODDS-ON that he will re-offend.

[--------]

The guy certainly isn't sending out signals that he intends to re-offend. If people think he's going to be more dangerous doing this intensive course of study than sitting banged up in a cell for 23 hours swapping violent stories with nutjobs and reading 'true crime' paperbacks from the prison library, written by gloating psycho's and sleazy journos, then there's little that I or anyone else can say to convince them otherwise.

Of course there are no guarantees that he won't re-offend, but if he's denied access to education and self-improvement it's absolutely ODDS-ON that he will re-offend.


I'd agree with everything here, Bob. :top marks

The only thing I WOULD say is that without access to education and self-improvement he WILL re-offend - 100% certain IMO.

And by no means every long-term prisoner is prepared to even consider undertaking the educational opportunities available to him.

Again - is the judicial system about revenge, or punishment and rehab?

If it's about revenge, maybe we should be designing our prisons like Guanatanamo or the Lubyanka? :cool2:

[hibiedude]

Sentences are finite. Whatever you or I think about it, he will be released from prison. What happens when he comes out? He does exactly the same things again, because he's learned nothing. Do you want a jakey sectarian nutter with a penchant for making people into pin cushions running around the community, or a university graduate who has shown that he has the self-discipline and capacity for abstract thought? I know who i'd rather next door to.

Sorry but spending money on a Killer makes no sence and being a university graduate does not mean he is cured, what happens if he kills again because some one says the wrong thing to him, I say as a parent let him do his time and make his own way in life like the rest of us. If you reward Killers like him then the system is wrong and should be changed.

I hear what your saying Bob but I don't agree

[Dashing Bob S]

Sorry but spending money on a Killer makes no sence and being a university graduate does not mean he is cured, what happens if he kills again because some one says the wrong thing to him, I say as a parent let him do his time and make his own way in life like the rest of us. If you reward Killers like him then the system is wrong and should be changed.

I hear what your saying Bob but I don't agree

I think we're going to have to agree to differ on this one, HD. I believe the crux is it what Doddie says, that prison and the prisoner have a joint rehabilitative responsiblity to us as a society. Do you want a nutter to come out of jail and run into your kids? I think not. What this guy did was beyond evil. If you try to air stab even fifty you're exhausted/bored and this guy did twice that to another human being. I don't want somebody like that going into suspended animation for twenty years and coming out the same guy, even worse.

The system will have failed as will he.

By showing he has the goods to make something of himself he's taking responsibility for his actions. How many violent murderers do that? The just sit nursing grievances against society for fifteen to twenty and then kick off after they come out at somebody who looks at them the wrong way when they have their first session demented on drink.

Instead of berating him, we should be saving our wrath for the nutters who show no contrition and make absolutely no effort to become anything other than the **** they are. This person has obviously came to a decision that he doesn't want to be that demented loser anymore, and is trying not only to give himself a second chance, but society a break from at least one pathetic, self-indulgent, *u*k*d up savage.

[Woody1985]

I think we're going to have to agree to differ on this one, HD. I believe the crux is it what Doddie says, that prison and the prisoner have a joint rehabilitative responsiblity to us as a society. Do you want a nutter to come out of jail and run into your kids? I think not. What this guy did was beyond evil. If you try to air stab even fifty you're exhausted/bored and this guy did twice that to another human being. I don't want somebody like that going into suspended animation for twenty years and coming out the same guy, even worse.

The system will have failed as will he.

By showing he has the goods to make something of himself he's taking responsibility for his actions. How many violent murderers do that? The just sit nursing grievances against society for fifteen to twenty and then kick off after they come out at somebody who looks at them the wrong way when they have their first session demented on drink.

Instead of berating him, we should be saving our wrath for the nutters who show no contrition and make absolutely no effort to become anything other than the **** they are. This person has obviously came to a decision that he doesn't want to be that demented loser anymore, and is trying not only to give himself a second chance, but society a break from at least one pathetic, self-indulgent, *u*k*d up savage.

I find that most of the points made in the last 2/3 points fair enough but some of it IMO is laughable.

Do you want your kids to run into a guy who has stabbed someone 100 times regardless of whether he has a degree or not? :faf:

Don't give me "yeah but he's got a degree", "he's less likely to kill me/you". :faf: Less likely than what? A crazed killer he once was or the average man in the street? Does it mean that he's less likely to kill you now than he was before but still more likely to kill you than the average Joe? Does that make it better?

How many murderers out there have had a degree, Shipman springs to mind as someone having a degree.

Has it been thought that he might be doing it to pass the time as 12 years is a fair length of time (not long enough IMO)?

Has it been thought that he might be doing it so that it can help with any potential appeals / reduced sentencing?

I'm all for giving people a second chance but IMO when someone stabs someone over a hundred times they never really become rehabilitated.

[Dashing Bob S]

I find that most of the points made in the last 2/3 points fair enough but some of it IMO is laughable.

Do you want your kids to run into a guy who has stabbed someone 100 times regardless of whether he has a degree or not? :faf:

No. I personally hope they never run into anybody like that. But I would rather they ran into a formerly violent criminal who has been engaged on long courses of study which shows the capacity for discipline, independent research and abstract thought before somebody who has simply sat in a cell for twenty years brooding about how hard done by they are by the world. I'd suspect you'd feel the same if you were being honest about it.

Don't give me "yeah but he's got a degree", "he's less likely to kill me/you". :faf: Less likely than what? A crazed killer he once was or the average man in the street?

Less likely than the crazed killer he once was. Most killer's do NOT have a good educational background. If you don't see this, then i'll never convince you otherwise. Having a degree won't stop anybody killing somebody, but death row and our maximum security prisons aren't stuffed with graduates, that's just an empirical fact.

Does it mean that he's less likely to kill you now than he was before but still more likely to kill you than the average Joe? Does that make it better?

This is just plain stupid. Nobody knows how 'likely to kill' anybody is. It obviously depends on a variety of factors. No, of course it doesn't make it better. I don't think anybody likes the idea of people killing other people.

How many murderers out there have had a degree, Shipman springs to mind as someone having a degree.

A very, very small percentage. Shipman certainly wasn't a typical murder. His were very cold-bloodied executions undertaken over a period of time.

Has it been thought that he might be doing it to pass the time as 12 years is a fair length of time (not long enough IMO)?

I don't know. Personally, i'd be inclined to agree with you that it might not be long enough, but that's the time that society has deemed acceptable, which means that most killers will be realised in that time. It's what state they come out as when they're released that concerns me the most.

Has it been thought that he might be doing it so that it can help with any potential appeals / reduced sentencing?

I'm sure it has and i'm sure that's exactly the case. There has to be an element of self-interest driving any rehabilitation. The point is that he can obviously envision himself becoming a proper member of society, he has a concept of a future for himself. So many in his shoes don't. They just want to get out, get pished and do the same thing again so they can get back in.

I'm all for giving people a second chance but IMO when someone stabs someone over a hundred times they never really become rehabilitated.

I think this is the strongest arguement advanced by you. You could be correct; again, its impossible to say. Prison and psychiatric professionals have to make that call. One thing is for sure; if they get it wrong you'll certainly know all about it, and if they get it right you'll never hear about it again.

But I repeat my contention: the prison system has a responsibility to try, whenever possible, to rehabilitate violent offenders. If they do not try to defuse these time bombs before letting them back into the community, they are doing us all a disservice.

[Woody1985]

I think this is the strongest arguement advanced by you. You could be correct; again, its impossible to say. Prison and psychiatric professionals have to make that call. One thing is for sure; if they get it wrong you'll certainly know all about it, and if they get it right you'll never hear about it again.

But I repeat my contention: the prison system has a responsibility to try, whenever possible, to rehabilitate violent offenders. If they do not try to defuse these time bombs before letting them back into the community, they are doing us all a disservice.

Good replies Bob.

You've made me look at things from a slightly different angle. I agree with what you are saying about them trying to rehabilitate someone to the best of their ability for the time they are inside. I agree that people are less likely to reoffend if they have made an effort but at the same time I wouldn't feel any better sitting in a boozer next to someone even if they have educated themselves after they've stabbed someone 100 times.

I suppose the real issues surround general social issues ie education, poverty that get people into this situation in the first place. Although there will always be people who are just ****ed up.

Sentencing is another issues but as you say the prison service just needs to do as much as they can to prevent reoffending and in this case it looks like they are.

I wonder if there are any mandatory educational classes courses within the judicinal system?

It would be good if there are some stats on similar security prisons with prisoners with similar offences where one jail education is the key focus and the other run like every other jail, would there be any difference is the re-offence rates on the outside? It seems to me like a lot of this stuff is optional and that the system doesn't do everything they can. If they are doing everything they can then it proves that they're not doing enough or that some/most people simply cannot be rehabilitated.

My key sticking point is that someone who commits this crime cannot be rehabilitated.

[Dashing Bob S]

Good replies Bob.

You've made me look at things from a slightly different angle. I agree with what you are saying about them trying to rehabilitate someone to the best of their ability for the time they are inside. I agree that people are less likely to reoffend if they have made an effort but at the same time I wouldn't feel any better sitting in a boozer next to someone even if they have educated themselves after they've stabbed someone 100 times.

I think I would. If somebody was talking eruditely about the crisis in financial markets, i'd be more comfortable with them than a half-pished slavering jakey bigot in a Carling top. They'd also be less likely to have a knife on them.

I suppose the real issues surround general social issues ie education, poverty that get people into this situation in the first place. Although there will always be people who are just ****ed up.

Agree.

Sentencing is another issues but as you say the prison service just needs to do as much as they can to prevent reoffending and in this case it looks like they are.

I really think the prisoner has to take responsibility too.

I wonder if there are any mandatory educational classes courses within the judicinal system?

There certainly should be.

It would be good if there are some stats on similar security prisons with prisoners with similar offences where one jail education is the key focus and the other run like every other jail, would there be any difference is the re-offence rates on the outside? It seems to me like a lot of this stuff is optional and that the system doesn't do everything they can. If they are doing everything they can then it proves that they're not doing enough or that some/most people simply cannot be rehabilitated.

I think it's down to resources, some places are better served than others. There are too many people in prison for nuisance crimes; these spaces should be used to secure and rehabilitate violent criminals who pose a threat to society.

My key sticking point is that someone who commits this crime cannot be rehabilitated.

You could very well be right, Woody. As I said, if you try stabbing the air with an imaginary knife you get tired/bored after about fifty plunges. To drive an implement into someone's body, through flesh and muscle over one hundred times really requires a totally messed up head. I don't know the case details and the medication (if any) this person was on, history of mental illness, psychiatric reports etc, but obviously there are professional experts within the system that have made the call that this guy has in some ways come to terms with the heinous crime he's committed and is trying to move on.

I really hope they are right.

I know that certain types of empathy/sensitivity training have proved highly succesful with certain violent offenders, less so with sexual ones, but the risk of re-offending can obviously never be eliminated.

[Hibrandenburg]

Is it not possibly a question of whether the purpose of the judicial system is revenge, or punishment with the possiblity of rehabilitation?

Isn't it a bit of both. Surely before starting rehabilitation, offenders must have shown remorse and at least partly payed their debt to society. :dunno:

Good thread with some thought provoking posts :top marks

[hibiedude]

Patrick Nicol stabbed George Reid who was homeless but often stayed with pals next door to the killer drunken Nicol pounced on George, who was wearing a Celtic shirt, near his home after someone had earlier accidentally burned his new Rangers top while lighting a cigarette in a bar.

I like the American system because Patrick Nicol would never see day light again so the threat of re-offending wouldn’t be a problem.

As some have said great thread with different opinions

Can't remember ever reading what was done to help homeless George Reid

[stu in nottingham]

Disagree. It's hard to take on one level, but he's obviously trying to change and make something out of his life.

Coming out with an education and a good degree gives him status, opportunity and self-esteem, increases his chance of employment and makes him less likely to offend again.

Locking him in a cage for 15 years won't improve him - he'll only go out and do the same sort of thing again.

He can come out a clued-up guy with qualifications, and develop the discipline to undergo a long and demanding course of study, increasing his communication skills and capacity for abstract thought, or he can come out the same brutalised, institutionalised jakey he was when he went in.

Sorry, but it's a no-brainer for me.


Maybe you just ignored my post Bob or couldn't answer it, I don't know. But why should someone doing time for murder be given better opportunities than someone who's unemployed or in a dead end job?


There's nothing stopping the unemployed person or the person in the dead end job to go out there and do the same though.

I agree with the basis of what Bob says but not the suggested method of study. This is a clasic case where online or distance learning could be utlilised well. Such study methods are making great inroads and and are favoured by many, including those that have to work for a living and cannot attend lectures, the latter criterion fits this person well.

There is a loss in online or distance learning of the social side of things but it should be remembered that as well as being rehabilitised Nicol is being punished for takng somebodies life. He relinquished his liberty when he carried out that dreadful crime.

I think this is a slap in the face to the many would-be students, particularly mature ones, who would love to have the opportunity to study for a degree but cannot due to work and time commitments. Many universities will still not accept a student who cannot fulfill regular lecture appearances.

Let his rehabilitation happen online. He should feel very fortunate just in that.

[Dashing Bob S]

Don't know if you saw Lisa's post (No 11) above Stu, but it seems this chap obtained a prior qualification through five years of open learning/on-line study from his cell. It was obviously that behaviour hwich the prison service chose to reward, and thought the next step was getting him into a normal educational/classroom environment, albeit under supervision.

The chap invested five years of his life in private intensive study, and proved he had the motivation and discipline, so they let him move onto the next stage. It all seems inherently sensible in my book.

I agree with you though; I think distance learning/OU/on-line is by far the most appropriate way for people in this circumstance to start. It isn't a soft option and will require a sincerity and strength of character to succeed. It gives most prisoners the chance to get to graduate level at their own pace (let's face it, very few will be at the level) before they go into a university environment.

Basically, it also serves as a screening process and weedles out the bams. An unreconstructed sectarian bigoted psycho simply wouldn't have the staying power/concentration/inclination to go through such a demanding open learning programme. They would fall by the wayside very quickly, and thus not get into a position where the prison service would consider it appropriate that they attend a University.

[stu in nottingham]

Don't know if you saw Lisa's post (No 11) above Stu, but it seems this chap obtained a prior qualification through five years of open learning/on-line study from his cell. It was obviously that behaviour hwich the prison service chose to reward, and thought the next step was getting him into a normal educational/classroom environment, albeit under supervision.

The chap invested five years of his life in private intensive study, and proved he had the motivation and discipline, so they let him move onto the next stage. It all seems inherently sensible in my book.

I agree with you though; I think distance learning/OU/on-line is by far the most appropriate way for people in this circumstance to start. It isn't a soft option and will require a sincerity and strength of character to succeed. It gives most prisoners the chance to get to graduate level at their own pace (let's face it, very few will be at the level) before they go into a university environment.

Basically, it also serves as a screening process and weedles out the bams. An unreconstructed sectarian bigoted psycho simply wouldn't have the staying power/concentration/inclination to go through such a demanding open learning programme. They would fall by the wayside very quickly, and thus not get into a position where the prison service would consider it appropriate that they attend a University.

Thanks Bob, yes I did read Lisa's post and took those circumstances into account. I do agree with you in essence and see your point about the rehabilitative effect. Where I would differ from your point of view though is that in allowing him to attend traditional classes is not commensurate with the punishment he is serving for what is a heinous and vicious crime. Allowing Nicol to leave prison to visit the university fits well with the rehabilitation side of his sentencing but certainly does not fulfill the punishment he has brought upon himself by his wicked actions. For me, both conditions have to be met.

I think he should feel himself very fortunate even in being allowed any study. Incidentally I don't feel that arming himself with a second undergraduate degree is going to equip him any more for the outside world when his time comes. I'd have thought that a post-graduate qualification would have served him better but that's by-the-by.

In general I'd like to see the opportunities afforded by the different kinds of distance learning used more in prisons etc. It's a civil way of approaching rehabilitation, but I can some opposition to it forming.

[Killiehibbie]

What is the degree he has done and studying for? Will they help him get a decent job on release?

[stu in nottingham]

What is the degree he has done and studying for? Will they help him get a decent job on release?

No knowledge of his first degree but the article describes him as studying 'economics'.

I wondered what attitude people here had to the point that his fellow students in class were not informed of his conviction? Not sure what I think about that point.

[--------]

One of the students in Uni when I was doing my BD degree was a convicted murderer out on licence. Another was a convicted embezzler - again, out on licence for the last few years of his sentence.

Some of us knew who they were, others didn't.

Both were ordained and went to parishes.

The murderer (who IMO had come to terms with what he had done, repented and moved on) had a reasonably successful career in the parish. His folks found no problem with him, as far as I'm aware.

The embezzler (who IMO had NOT come to terms with what he had done, and who was potentially a more violent man than the other guy) was a walking disater, and should not have been allowed anywhere near the ministry.

I think many of the reservations being expressed here relate to the fact that the assessment and supervision programs associated with prisoner rehab at times leave a lot to be desired.

[Pete]

I'd agree with everything here, Bob. :top marks

The only thing I WOULD say is that without access to education and self-improvement he WILL re-offend - 100% certain IMO.

And by no means every long-term prisoner is prepared to even consider undertaking the educational opportunities available to him.

Again - is the judicial system about revenge, or punishment and rehab?

If it's about revenge, maybe we should be designing our prisons like Guanatanamo or the Lubyanka? :cool2:


Why can't it be a combination of the three?

The justice system is a tool for society to deal with criminals but it's not society that has specifically suffered at the hands of the criminal...it's the victim and their family. What's so wrong with excercising a certain element of revenge?
It's beneficial for society in general that the criminal be punsished and rehabilitated. But what about the victim and their families? Their wishes aren't even taken into consideration yet they were the ones who were wronged?

The justice system and people like yourself have to wonder why people want revenge. If sentences were stiffer then people might feel like true justice has been done...and they might feel that the system is dishing out enough punishment to take away their need for revenge.

Twelve years for cold calculated murder...and a percentage of that involves outside contact?? Surely the guidelines need looked at.