British Jobs for British Workers

[Betty Boop]

Do you think Gordon Brown regrets making this statement? In view of the series of wildcat strikes going on at the moment, seems like these words have come back to haunt him. The BNP are also out leafleting the workers. :bitchy:

[Woody1985]

Probably but he should be sticking to his statement.

There will be people who could have got back into work that will now claim benefits for the next couple of months so they should have priority.

[Hibrandenburg]

Thing is, this goes on throughout Europe. My company (a British company) employs on British contracts here in Germany so as to circumnavigate the high social insurances here. We're as bad as other countries for using loopholes to save a few bob.

[Ed De Gramo]

Politicians will talk ****** in order to get power.....I never for 1 minute expected Brown to be true to his word...

I'm sure if the boot was on the other foot and a whole lot of British people headed to Italy for work, then the Italians would be in uproar :agree:

[hibsdaft]

Brown is a cretin, and he must be very embarrassed about that pathetic grandstanding from two years ago. i've been following this story quite closely as it seem like one with a fair bit of mileage.

unfortunately media hysteria is portraying this as simply a Little Englander protest, but here are the strike committee demands (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/latest/6850) as supported overwhelmingly on the picket this morning, which are the total opposite of that mentality:




No victimisation of workers taking solidarity action.
All workers in UK to be covered by NAECI Agreement.
Union controlled registering of unemployed and locally skilled union members, with nominating rights as work becomes available.
Government and employer investment in proper training / apprenticeships for new generation of construction workers - fight for a future for young people.
All Immigrant labour to be unionised.
Trade Union assistance for immigrant workers - including interpreters - and access to Trade Union advice - to promote active integrated Trade Union Members.
Build links with construction trade unions on the continent.


and heres a vid clip (http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184614595?bctid=9823457001) of BNP vultures who turned up at the pickets today, but were removed by the striking workers:

this all comes down to two EU labour law rulings (Laval and Viking) which undermine collective bargaining and pit workers from different countries against one another in the interests of big business profits. a wee glimpse of the following gives a fair idea of the motives of these firms:


International comparison of gross average monthly salaries paid in the construction sector

UK £2,160

Portugal £614

Germany £1,806

Italy £1,386

France £1,046

this is quite a good article by Jon Cruddas MP (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/31/economy-trade-unions-john-cruddas) on the background of the labour laws etc.


But worse has been a series of court rulings that have further deregulated labour markets. In 2003 the Finnish ferry company Viking Line reflagged its vessel and employed an Estonian crew, cutting its wage costs by 60%. Its actions were upheld by the European court of justice. In 2004 a Latvian company, Laval, sent workers to building sites in Sweden. The Swedish construction union asked the company to agree to the existing collective agreement within the building sector. It refused, operating instead under the Latvian agreement - including lower pay that undercut the Swedish workers' wages. Again, the court ruled in the company's favour. Workers' conditions and pay need only comply with the laws of the company's home country.

The government has done nothing to halt the EU race to the bottom. Its own labour market policies succeeded in the boom years because exploitation, precarious jobs and exploitative levels of pay could be offset by cheap credit and then hidden behind the sparkle of consumerism. Those times are over. With social insurance in short supply, people's key source of economic security was the rising asset value of their homes. That's gone. There is no cheap credit to make up for falling or stagnant wages.

that said, this is a tense and volotile situation. i've heard guys phoning the radio shows coming out with some right crap which i do not agree with. but the principles of this action are in the long term interests of all EU workers in my honest opinion.

[Hibrandenburg]

Politicians will talk ****** in order to get power.....I never for 1 minute expected Brown to be true to his word...

I'm sure if the boot was on the other foot and a whole lot of British people headed to Italy for work, then the Italians would be in uproar :agree:


Thing is, this goes on throughout Europe. My company (a British company) employs on British contracts here in Germany so as to circumnavigate the high social insurances here. We're as bad as other countries for using loopholes to save a few bob.

[RyeSloan]

No victimisation of workers taking solidarity action.
All workers in UK to be covered by NAECI Agreement.
Union controlled registering of unemployed and locally skilled union members, with nominating rights as work becomes available.
Government and employer investment in proper training / apprenticeships for new generation of construction workers - fight for a future for young people.
All Immigrant labour to be unionised.
Trade Union assistance for immigrant workers - including interpreters - and access to Trade Union advice - to promote active integrated Trade Union Members.
Build links with construction trade unions on the continent


And just why do the unions think they should have the sole right to decide who works when and to force all 'immigrant' labour to join their union.

These type of demands and the total misunderstanding of the economics of the world are exactly why this type of strike get zero support from me.

I suppose they will also be demanding that all UK nationals working abroad be immediately unionised and forced to return to the UK to protect other nations local workforces or does their standards only apply to 'foreigners' in the UK?

I also suppose that the extension of the plant that caused the controversy was to be staffed by local not immigrant (migrant surely?) workers or is that fact just being overlooked to allow the unions to do more political sabre rattling?

Is sad to see workers still fall for the union's nonsense....firstly these people take 'solidarity action' strike for pensions of people who didn't exist now they strike for jobs that no one has lost...

[Lucius Apuleius]

Cannot really comment. Work for an Italian company's Swiss manning agency in a joint venture with an American company in Nigeria buidling a gas plant for an American oil company in a joint venture with a Nigerian and a South African company.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Brown is a cretin, and he must be very embarrassed about that pathetic grandstanding from two years ago. i've been following this story quite closely as it seem like one with a fair bit of mileage.

unfortunately media hysteria is portraying this as simply a Little Englander protest, but here are the strike committee demands (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/latest/6850) as supported overwhelmingly on the picket this morning, which are the total opposite of that mentality:



and heres a vid clip (http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184614595?bctid=9823457001) of BNP vultures who turned up at the pickets today, but were removed by the striking workers:

this all comes down to two EU labour law rulings (Laval and Viking) which undermine collective bargaining and pit workers from different countries against one another in the interests of big business profits. a wee glimpse of the following gives a fair idea of the motives of these firms:



this is quite a good article by Jon Cruddas MP (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/31/economy-trade-unions-john-cruddas) on the background of the labour laws etc.



that said, this is a tense and volotile situation. i've heard guys phoning the radio shows coming out with some right crap which i do not agree with. but the principles of this action are in the long term interests of all EU workers in my honest opinion.

:top marks

The media et. al. are doing their utmost to potray this as reactionary and xenophobic - although the pickets aren't exactly helping themselves with some very unfortunate and divisive sloganeering.

The Cruddas article is, unsurprisingly, very good. As is this one...

http://http://www.socialist.net/wildcat-strikes-sweep-britain.htm

Gordon Brown has now denounced the workers’ action. In doing so he has to in effect repudiate his own racist dog whistle slogan. ‘British jobs for British workers’ is not just divisive. It quite simply can’t be delivered under the rules of the European Union, which commits all member states to ‘free movement of labour’.

Does that mean the workers’ action is misguided and futile? Not at all. The situation at Lindsey, a situation replicated all over the country, is that construction work around these sites is subcontracted out. Lindsey is owned by the US firm Total, which contracts engineering work out to Jacobs, which in turn has hired IREM, who employs Italian and Portuguese labour. The reason is not far to seek. Average monthly wages in the construction sector in the UK are £2,160; in Italy they are £1,386; and in Portugal just £614 a month. These foreign workers are being accommodated in barge hostels moored in the North Sea, described as ‘Soviet style’ in standard.

The British workers are fighting to maintain wages and conditions in the industry. Though we don’t support the slogan, ‘British jobs for British workers,’ we support their fight. British workers are in effect being excluded from consideration for the job through the operation of the subcontracting mechanism. IREM will bring in their entire team to do the job. The job vacancies will not be advertised in Britain. In the relentless search to drive wages to the bottom, British workers are effectively being discriminated against by IREM. If that is not illegal, it ought to be.

[hibeesboy1966]

No victimisation of workers taking solidarity action.
All workers in UK to be covered by NAECI Agreement.
Union controlled registering of unemployed and locally skilled union members, with nominating rights as work becomes available.
Government and employer investment in proper training / apprenticeships for new generation of construction workers - fight for a future for young people.
All Immigrant labour to be unionised.
Trade Union assistance for immigrant workers - including interpreters - and access to Trade Union advice - to promote active integrated Trade Union Members.
Build links with construction trade unions on the continent

And just why do the unions think they should have the sole right to decide who works when and to force all 'immigrant' labour to join their union.

These type of demands and the total misunderstanding of the economics of the world are exactly why this type of strike get zero support from me.

I suppose they will also be demanding that all UK nationals working abroad be immediately unionised and forced to return to the UK to protect other nations local workforces or does their standards only apply to 'foreigners' in the UK?

I also suppose that the extension of the plant that caused the controversy was to be staffed by local not immigrant (migrant surely?) workers or is that fact just being overlooked to allow the unions to do more political sabre rattling?

Is sad to see workers still fall for the union's nonsense....firstly these people take 'solidarity action' strike for pensions of people who didn't exist now they strike for jobs that no one has lost...


unions are only wanting these guys to be unionised so that the employers pay them the correct rates of pay and conditions for which people have fought for over the years .in an industry that is highly dangerous ,migratory, and seasonal a register of the workforce would prove benificial to ensure that the operatives that were applying for the job were trained to the correct standards
and finally if you would read the reasons for the strike you would know that it was called because british workers were not even allowed to apply for the positions

[steakbake]

Unfortunately, he'll come to regret that he uttered those words during his phase of trying to convince voters that he was a proud Brit, not just a dour Scot.

British Jobs for British Workers was by all accounts a phrase used frequently in BNP campaign literature, up until he got carried away and used it at the party conference.

In addition, he's forgotten that we are in the EU and signed up to free movement of people as part of it. We are also not a closed country, meaning skilled workers can apply to enter the UK work market. Even in his new tougher, Australian influenced immigration system, if an employer wishes to take on a non-EEA national they can apply for the visa as long as they are a registered organisation with the Home Office.

Instead he bumbles along talking about it being to do with equipping the British people with skills to build the British economy.

It was an irresponsible slogan to use which has backfired enormously in the short term and will probably play straight into hands of the more odious right wing in parts of the country where the BNP and Labour are fighting it out for traditional 'working class' votes.

Watch out for UKIP and BNP candidates doing very well in the June elections in England.

[Killiehibbie]

What chance does the man in the street have when even Big Issue selling has been taken over by gangs of immigrants.

[Woody1985]

What chance does the man in the street have when even Big Issue selling has been taken over by gangs of immigrants.

:agree:

It's ironic isn't it. These people move thousands of miles to come here and sell magazines on a street corner set up to help homeless people.

I'm sure I read that the local homeless were being targeted by these immigrants which means the very people it was set up for now can't access it.

If I'm correct in saying it the BI is sold to the traders at a set price and then they sell them on and keep the difference themselves.

[steakbake]

What chance does the man in the street have when even Big Issue selling has been taken over by gangs of immigrants.

At least they're working. :wink:

[Gatecrasher]

i cant believe people are turning this into a BNP issue,

all the workers are trying to do is get a level playing field that they clearly dont think they have.

fair play to them

[The Green Goblin]

What chance does the man in the street have when even Big Issue selling has been taken over by gangs of immigrants.

Do `immigrants` go around in `gangs` these days? :greengrin

GG

[Woody1985]

Do `immigrants` go around in `gangs` these days? :greengrin

GG

That's what was reported in the EEN IIRC.

That locals were being forced out due to 'pressure' from eastern europeans. Although this is completely separate from the original issue so probably best left there (or a new thread).

[LiverpoolHibs]

:agree:

It's ironic isn't it. These people move thousands of miles to come here and sell magazines on a street corner set up to help homeless people.

Yes, that's definitely what they're doing. Deary me.

They flee their countries just to get a shot at selling the Big Issue on a street in Britain. All their birthdays have come at once...


I'm sure I read that the local homeless were being targeted by these immigrants which means the very people it was set up for now can't access it.

What does this even mean? How are they being targetted?

I realise this is going way off-topic but this was too incredible not to reply to.

[Sir David Gray]

What gets me is people aiming accusations of xenophobia and racism at the workers.

All these people want is for British people to be given contracts ahead of foreign nationals. At a time when a lot of people are out of work and others could do with the extra money, it's understandable that they will feel this way.

Unfortunately for them, due to the 'wonderful' employment laws of the EU, there is very little (if anything) that anyone can do to change things.

And of course, the other unfortunate thing is that it is inevitable that the big winners out of all this will undoubtedly be the BNP, who must be shouting from the rooftops about this latest episode.

[Woody1985]

Yes, that's definitely what they're doing. Deary me.

They flee their countries just to get a shot at selling the Big Issue on a street in Britain. All their birthdays have come at once...

What does this even mean? How are they being targetted?

I realise this is going way off-topic but this was too incredible not to reply to.

Hi LH,

There was an article in the EEN about the BI traders and they were allegedly being threatened not to sell the BI in certain areas, prime spots for trading etc. That's what I meant by targetted.

I appreciate that from someone in my shoes (and no doubt yours) that we've not had to sell the BI to make a living and it's not the most glamourous and well paid job to us but it might be to people from a lot poorer backgrounds ie the Romanians (reportedly) that we now see selling the BI and begging on our streets. For someone who is as well educated as you come across it would seem a little niave to automatically think that because it may not be a good thing for us/people who've grown up here doesn't mean it can't be for other people.

TBH I don't really want to get into a debate about it because you will grind me down with your in depth analysis of each situation and your views etc. Come to think of it, screw the BI sellers.

P.S the last paragraph was light hearted....:greengrin

[hibsdaft]

Unfortunately for them, due to the 'wonderful' employment laws of the EU, there is very little (if anything) that anyone can do to change things.

sometimes people talk about the EU like its some abstract evil, I'm not sure you are, but just to be sure, these are laws that were all supported by the the Lib Dems, Labour and the Tories in Brussels.

there was a huge campaign against some of these EU Directives (most notably the Bolkestein Services Directive) by the French, Belgian, Danish etc Trade Unions, (and the UK ones, but they are weak in truth) and in France they managed to get the French Socialist Party to vote against it along with the French Communist Party etc.

but in the UK our parties went along with it because none of them have the nerve to challenge free market ideology.

the result is as predicted: one nations workers pitted against anothers, workers living hundreds of miles from home in a prison in some grim dock while around them their fellow workers are left on the scrap heap.

and all of this purely in the interests of big business, for their profits.

its not rocket science is it.

[LiverpoolHibs]

What gets me is people aiming accusations of xenophobia and racism at the workers.

All these people want is for British people to be given contracts ahead of foreign nationals. At a time when a lot of people are out of work and others could do with the extra money, it's understandable that they will feel this way.

Unfortunately for them, due to the 'wonderful' employment laws of the EU, there is very little (if anything) that anyone can do to change things.

And of course, the other unfortunate thing is that it is inevitable that the big winners out of all this will undoubtedly be the BNP, who must be shouting from the rooftops about this latest episode.

That's not really the point at all, but it's what people have chosen to portray it as (again with the help of misguided sloganeering on behalf of the pickets). It's about parity, undercutting, subcontracting, collective bargaining and the ever-increasing marginalisation of the Unions rather than competition between labour - which is exactly what they want.

[LiverpoolHibs]

sometimes people talk about the EU like its some abstract evil, I'm not sure you are, but just to be sure, these are laws that were all supported by the the Lib Dems, Labour and the Tories in Brussels.

there was a huge campaign against some of these EU Directives (most notably the Bolkestein Services Directive) by the French, Belgian, Danish etc Trade Unions, (and the UK ones, but they are weak in truth) and in France they managed to get the French Socialist Party to vote against it along with the French Communist Party etc.

but in the UK our parties went along with it because none of them have the nerve to challenge free market ideology.

the result is as predicted: one nations workers pitted against anothers, workers living hundreds of miles from home in a prison in some grim dock while around them their fellow workers are left on the scrap heap.

and all of this purely in the interests of big business, for their profits.

its not rocket science is it.

Bang on, again.

[Sir David Gray]

sometimes people talk about the EU like its some abstract evil, I'm not sure you are, but just to be sure, these are laws that were all supported by the the Lib Dems, Labour and the Tories in Brussels.

there was a huge campaign against some of these EU Directives (most notably the Bolkestein Services Directive) by the French, Belgian, Danish etc Trade Unions, (and the UK ones, but they are weak in truth) and in France they managed to get the French Socialist Party to vote against it along with the French Communist Party etc.

but in the UK our parties went along with it because none of them have the nerve to challenge free market ideology.

the result is as predicted: one nations workers pitted against anothers, workers living hundreds of miles from home in a prison in some grim dock while around them their fellow workers are left on the scrap heap.

and all of this purely in the interests of big business, for their profits.

its not rocket science is it.

I am talking about it in that way. I'm not disputing that our parties may have gone along with it as they are responsible for getting us there in the first place.

The first mainstream party in Scotland that pledges to remove us from Westminster and Brussels, i'm voting for them.

[RyeSloan]

sometimes people talk about the EU like its some abstract evil, I'm not sure you are, but just to be sure, these are laws that were all supported by the the Lib Dems, Labour and the Tories in Brussels.

there was a huge campaign against some of these EU Directives (most notably the Bolkestein Services Directive) by the French, Belgian, Danish etc Trade Unions, (and the UK ones, but they are weak in truth) and in France they managed to get the French Socialist Party to vote against it along with the French Communist Party etc.

but in the UK our parties went along with it because none of them have the nerve to challenge free market ideology.

the result is as predicted: one nations workers pitted against anothers, workers living hundreds of miles from home in a prison in some grim dock while around them their fellow workers are left on the scrap heap.

and all of this purely in the interests of big business, for their profits.

its not rocket science is it.


Bang on, again.


Wow this place is like Socialist.net sometimes!!

We live in a world economy. Get over it.

You speak of grim docks...yet the Italians are more than happy to take on a contract of employment and do the job, it's not slave labour but workers doing an honest days job for a price they have signed up for.

There are no workers on the scrap heap..there has not been one UK worker made redundant over this deal.

Who are the unions to decide what is the correct wage or who should do the work? The fact is that these workers receive a wage they have volunteered for but work under UK rules and regulations...i.e their safety and rights are looked after by legislation and their wage is looked after by common consent between them and their employer. I see nothing wrong in this what so ever.

Mr Turnbull gave a perfect reason why this strike and the bitterness behind it is so misguided....multinational companies will employ multinational labour...thats the way it is and to try and force out 'foreign workers' (the actual nationality of these people of course change what ever country you happen to have such reactionism in) is sheer folly and can only do harm to the nation and its economy.

[Lucius Apuleius]

And looking through my Personnel on Board report for yesterday, we have

Germans 21
Filipinos 12
Lebanese 15
Romanian 1
South African 16
Thai 10
Malay 9
Indian 14
Dutch 3
UK 45
Canadian 3
Italian 12
US 39
Columbian 2
Korean 55
Mexican 5
Australian 2
Pakistani 1
Canadian 3
French 1
Turk 3
Chinese 2
Egyptian 2
Quatar 1
Nigerian 3255

And that is just in my domain!!!! Is that a fair mix you reckon?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Wow this place is like Socialist.net sometimes!!

You say that like it's a bad thing!


We live in a world economy. Get over it.

And a sterling job it's doing too...


You speak of grim docks...yet the Italians are more than happy to take on a contract of employment and do the job, it's not slave labour but workers doing an honest days job for a price they have signed up for.

There are no workers on the scrap heap..there has not been one UK worker made redundant over this deal.

That's not really the point, though. Just because workers take the job doesn't mean their conditions are acceptable, Look at the conditions of immigrant labour in the UAE, for example - yet they still stream in to do the work. That's not an entirely applicable comparison but, as I say, it challenges the assumption that taking the job is an acceptance of conditions.

It's also symptomatic of the increasing lack of accountability and the ensuing (and inevitable) decline in worker's rights in this kind of deregulised system.

Do you genuinely see competition between workforces as healthy?


Who are the unions to decide what is the correct wage or who should do the work? The fact is that these workers receive a wage they have volunteered for but work under UK rules and regulations...i.e their safety and rights are looked after by legislation and their wage is looked after by common consent between them and their employer. I see nothing wrong in this what so ever.

They don't work under UK rules and regulations, that's the point. As the Cruddas article linked above points out "conditions and pay need only comply with the laws of the company's home country."

And I'd argue that there is no 'common consent' without collective bargaining.


Mr Turnbull gave a perfect reason why this strike and the bitterness behind it is so misguided....multinational companies will employ multinational labour...thats the way it is and to try and force out 'foreign workers' (the actual nationality of these people of course change what ever country you happen to have such reactionism in) is sheer folly and can only do harm to the nation and its economy.

Again, this isn't the point. It's nothing about 'forcing out foreign workers'. Although it's not surprising that it's been portrayed this way.

[RyeSloan]

LH, Socialist economics are a bad thing...show me a socialist economy that creates wealth instead of destroying it and I might reconsider.

Of course I see competition between work forces as healthy...why should someone feel they have a right to a job and a wage just because of their nationality? The insular view that every task undertaken in Britain must be done by a British person is just plain wrong, it's a bit like saying all companies that operate here should be british as well just doesn't make sense.

As for "ensuing (and inevitable) decline in worker's rights"...hardly I think you will find workers have many more rights now ('thanks' largely to the EU) than they ever had...discrimination law, disability law, human rights, health and saftey law etc has seen a dramatic revamp in the last few years.

We are clearly on the different side of the fence on this one though and I am no expert in foriegn labout laws I just know that having worked with a wide variety of nationalities I have absolutely no qualms what so ever about havign foreign nationals in the UK workforce.

[LiverpoolHibs]

LH, Socialist economics are a bad thing...show me a socialist economy that creates wealth instead of destroying it and I might reconsider.

Well, firstly show me a socialist economy. Or one that hasn't had/got the odds well and truly stacked against it from the off.

And 'creating wealth' is a pretty charged phrase.


Of course I see competition between work forces as healthy...why should someone feel they have a right to a job and a wage just because of their nationality? The insular view that every task undertaken in Britain must be done by a British person is just plain wrong, it's a bit like saying all companies that operate here should be british as well just doesn't make sense.

In my last two posts in this thread I've argued that this isn't the point. Apparently that's just been discounted...


As for "ensuing (and inevitable) decline in worker's rights"...hardly I think you will find workers have many more rights now ('thanks' largely to the EU) than they ever had...discrimination law, disability law, human rights, health and saftey law etc has seen a dramatic revamp in the last few years.

We are clearly on the different side of the fence on this one though and I am no expert in foriegn labout laws I just know that having worked with a wide variety of nationalities I have absolutely no qualms what so ever about havign foreign nationals in the UK workforce.

Neither have I. But again, that's not the point. I'd continue, but I'll be repeating myself.

[RyeSloan]

So there is no true Socialist economies...I wonder why not.

I seem to have missed lots of points even though I was responding to yours and answering a direct question.....oh well.

[LiverpoolHibs]

So there is no true Socialist economies...I wonder why not.

I seem to have missed lots of points even though I was responding to yours and answering a direct question.....oh well.

This is going off-topic, but going from your previous point of the 'creation of wealth' - taking Venezuela as an example of a 'socialistic' economy, see their GDP pre and post Chavez. That's hugely simplistic but, no offence, you made it so...

[RyeSloan]

This is going off-topic, but going from your previous point of the 'creation of wealth' - taking Venezuela as an example of a 'socialistic' economy, see their GDP pre and post Chavez. That's hugely simplistic but, no offence, you made it so...

Oh there is nothing simple about it despite you seemingly being intent on portraying me as so and I'm really glad you mentioned Chavez as he is the perfect example of my point.

[hibsbollah]

Oh there is nothing simple about it despite you seemingly being intent on portraying me as so and I'm really glad you mentioned Chavez as he is the perfect example of my point.

How? Chavez has improved Venezeula's GDP as well as redistributing it more equally amongst the population, as you would expect from a 'socialist' Government. Cuba has the best healthcare, education and pension provision in the region, especially compared to its US client state neighbours...This is despite both countries being subject to trade embargoes from the richest nation on earth.

Hardly the point though. The thread is about a British industrial dispute:greengrin

[majorhibs]

And looking through my Personnel on Board report for yesterday, we have

Germans 21
Filipinos 12
Lebanese 15
Romanian 1
South African 16
Thai 10
Malay 9
Indian 14
Dutch 3
UK 45
Canadian 3
Italian 12
US 39
Columbian 2
Korean 55
Mexican 5
Australian 2
Pakistani 1
Canadian 3
French 1
Turk 3
Chinese 2
Egyptian 2
Quatar 1
Nigerian 3255

And that is just in my domain!!!! Is that a fair mix you reckon?

C'mon GT, you and I know that nigeria is never a fair example, you as well as I will have had to work with Nigerian workers and you will have lost experienced able workers with knowledge of their workplace because the Nigerian government brought out yet another new law on qoutas meaning workers had to be lost because the numbers did'nt fit. Unfair goes on everywhere, moreso in some places than others. Bit much ham shanks though in your gaff. How's your ears for bleeding?

[Lucius Apuleius]

C'mon GT, you and I know that nigeria is never a fair example, you as well as I will have had to work with Nigerian workers and you will have lost experienced able workers with knowledge of their workplace because the Nigerian government brought out yet another new law on qoutas meaning workers had to be lost because the numbers did'nt fit. Unfair goes on everywhere, moreso in some places than others. Bit much ham shanks though in your gaff. How's your ears for bleeding?


:greengrin Know what you are saying, however the point I was trying to make was that workers of all nationalities can work together. Nothing is fair though, even here, we have people doing the same job but their nationality determines thier salary, for instance one of my Indian managers earns less than my French one who earns less than my Canadian one who earns less than my English one!!! All reporting to me and all doing the same job.

Correct about the yanks and don't even get me started on the yarpies!!!

[The Green Goblin]

Well, I`m no expert on the ins and outs of Unions and european employment laws or any of that stuff, but what I can offer in terms of a wee thought here, is an account of my own experience as an `immigrant` to a country that is statistically in the developing world.

I have never encountered a single incidence of resentment or prejudice or thinly veiled remarks or indeed anything, other than a warm welcome and unquestioning friendliness. People are interested in where I come from and ask about it. I try to learn Portuguese as best I can and respect the customs and way of life here.

The local newspapers do not have implicitly racist headlines and subtexts about people who are working in this country who are not Brazilian, although there are hundreds and thousands of them.

There is still a very high level of poverty here, however, to place it in perspective, Brazil is the same land size as the entire U.S.A minus Alaska and like any given country in the world, it has its problems.

Whenever I go back to the UK to see my family and friends, I am always absolutely appalled at how many instances of both unthinking and openly xenophobic behaviour and attitudes I see and hear absolutely everywhere.

For the first few days, I see my own country through the eyes of a `foreigner`/`tourist` and these things leap out at you, like someone turned up the volume. As a `foreigner`, I would feel pretty unwelcome in the UK.

I love Scotland and although I am happy where I am, the thought of my next visit home goes through my mind every single day and I look forward to it. I`m not one of these people who goes to live abroad and makes themselves feel better about it by putting down their own country.

However, I promise you, there is a really enormous bloody chip on the UK`s shoulder when it comes to being open to people of other nationalities. No, not everyone sees it that way, but there are enough that it`s a much bigger problem than most people realise.

GG

[Mibbes Aye]

Well, I`m no expert on the ins and outs of Unions and european employment laws or any of that stuff, but what I can offer in terms of a wee thought here, is an account of my own experience as an `immigrant` to a country that is statistically in the developing world.

I have never encountered a single incidence of resentment or prejudice or thinly veiled remarks or indeed anything, other than a warm welcome and unquestioning friendliness. People are interested in where I come from and ask about it. I try to learn Portuguese as best I can and respect the customs and way of life here.

The local newspapers do not have implicitly racist headlines and subtexts about people who are working in this country who are not Brazilian, although there are hundreds and thousands of them.

There is still a very high level of poverty here, however, to place it in perspective, Brazil is the same land size as the entire U.S.A minus Alaska and like any given country in the world, it has its problems.

Whenever I go back to the UK to see my family and friends, I am always absolutely appalled at how many instances of both unthinking and openly xenophobic behaviour and attitudes I see and hear absolutely everywhere.

For the first few days, I see my own country through the eyes of a `foreigner`/`tourist` and these things leap out at you, like someone turned up the volume. As a `foreigner`, I would feel pretty unwelcome in the UK.

I love Scotland and although I am happy where I am, the thought of my next visit home goes through my mind every single day and I look forward to it. I`m not one of these people who goes to live abroad and makes themselves feel better about it by putting down their own country.

However, I promise you, there is a really enormous bloody chip on the UK`s shoulder when it comes to being open to people of other nationalities. No, not everyone sees it that way, but there are enough that it`s a much bigger problem than most people realise.

GG

That's an interesting and thought-provoking perspective GG :aok:

[Sir David Gray]

Well, I`m no expert on the ins and outs of Unions and european employment laws or any of that stuff, but what I can offer in terms of a wee thought here, is an account of my own experience as an `immigrant` to a country that is statistically in the developing world.

I have never encountered a single incidence of resentment or prejudice or thinly veiled remarks or indeed anything, other than a warm welcome and unquestioning friendliness. People are interested in where I come from and ask about it. I try to learn Portuguese as best I can and respect the customs and way of life here.

The local newspapers do not have implicitly racist headlines and subtexts about people who are working in this country who are not Brazilian, although there are hundreds and thousands of them.

There is still a very high level of poverty here, however, to place it in perspective, Brazil is the same land size as the entire U.S.A minus Alaska and like any given country in the world, it has its problems.

Whenever I go back to the UK to see my family and friends, I am always absolutely appalled at how many instances of both unthinking and openly xenophobic behaviour and attitudes I see and hear absolutely everywhere.

For the first few days, I see my own country through the eyes of a `foreigner`/`tourist` and these things leap out at you, like someone turned up the volume. As a `foreigner`, I would feel pretty unwelcome in the UK.

I love Scotland and although I am happy where I am, the thought of my next visit home goes through my mind every single day and I look forward to it. I`m not one of these people who goes to live abroad and makes themselves feel better about it by putting down their own country.

However, I promise you, there is a really enormous bloody chip on the UK`s shoulder when it comes to being open to people of other nationalities. No, not everyone sees it that way, but there are enough that it`s a much bigger problem than most people realise.

GG

I'm not sure if this is a fair analysis of the immigrants to Brazil, but I think that when you emigrate to another country, you should do everything possible to integrate within that society.

You say that you try your best to learn Portuguese and you respect the customs and the Brazilian way of life, which is great. Is that kind of attitude typical amongst most immigrants to Brazil?

If so, it would help explain why immigrants are generally welcomed more in Brazil, than a lot of them are in the UK.

We have a situation here, where a lot of people from foreign lands come here and do very little in their attempts to integrate. They don't identify with the UK on any level, they keep within their own communities and some of them can't even speak a word of English.

I think those are three of the biggest problems that people have with immigrants, and if those issues were addressed, I think a lot of the hostility towards migrants would cease.

Also, is Brazil involved in a similar set up to that of the EU, whereby any number of workers from Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador could theoretically come and work in Brazil, without the Brazilian Government really having a say in the matter?

Again, that is the situation facing the UK. Millions of people from all over Europe could, in theory, arrive in the UK to work and the Government could do pretty much nothing to prevent it.

I am not against all immigration, I think that it can be helpful. But I think the people that are coming in should not only be skilled and willing workers, but they should also be willing to involve themselves in our society and in everyday life.

Now, to a lot of immigrants, that already applies to them and that is fantastic, I would not hear a bad word said against those people.

But there are some places, where the vast majority of the population is from the same migrant background.

The Government goes on about diversity and multiculturalism, that kind of situation does nothing to help promote those ideals.

I realise that it must be difficult to arrive in a strange country and all of a sudden be expected to involve yourself in that new culture and in everyday life. But I think it's vital that you try your very best to do that, for your own good, if not for anything else.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I'm not sure if this is a fair analysis of the immigrants to Brazil, but I think that when you emigrate to another country, you should do everything possible to integrate within that society.

You say that you try your best to learn Portuguese and you respect the customs and the Brazilian way of life, which is great. Is that kind of attitude typical amongst most immigrants to Brazil?

If so, it would help explain why immigrants are generally welcomed more in Brazil, than a lot of them are in the UK.

We have a situation here, where a lot of people from foreign lands come here and do very little in their attempts to integrate. They don't identify with the UK on any level, they keep within their own communities and some of them can't even speak a word of English.

I think those are three of the biggest problems that people have with immigrants, and if those issues were addressed, I think a lot of the hostility towards migrants would cease.

Also, is Brazil involved in a similar set up to that of the EU, whereby any number of workers from Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador could theoretically come and work in Brazil, without the Brazilian Government really having a say in the matter?

Again, that is the situation facing the UK. Millions of people from all over Europe could, in theory, arrive in the UK to work and the Government could do pretty much nothing to prevent it.

I am not against all immigration, I think that it can be helpful. But I think the people that are coming in should not only be skilled and willing workers, but they should also be willing to involve themselves in our society and in everyday life.

Now, to a lot of immigrants, that already applies to them and that is fantastic, I would not hear a bad word said against those people.

But there are some places, where the vast majority of the population is from the same migrant background.

The Government goes on about diversity and multiculturalism, that kind of situation does nothing to help promote those ideals.

I realise that it must be difficult to arrive in a strange country and all of a sudden be expected to involve yourself in that new culture and in everyday life. But I think it's vital that you try your very best to do that, for your own good, if not for anything else.


Problem with the above mate is that it is not all a one way process. Whether we like it or not we joined what has eveolved into the EU. Themz the roolz. Nothing to stop British workers going to mainland Europe to work. Your point about immigrants not integrating; how many Brits who own property in France, Spain, Portugal, Cyprus etc can speak their host county languages with any decncy? A pretty small percentage I would imagine.

[Mibbes Aye]

We have a situation here, where a lot of people from foreign lands come here and do very little in their attempts to integrate. They don't identify with the UK on any level, they keep within their own communities and some of them can't even speak a word of English.



Folk from a foreign land, speaking in a tongue we find hard to understand, with their own religion hostile to ours, keeping themselves to themselves in their own community.























Who knows, maybe they'll form a football team......

:flag:

[Sir David Gray]

Problem with the above mate is that it is not all a one way process. Whether we like it or not we joined what has eveolved into the EU. Themz the roolz. Nothing to stop British workers going to mainland Europe to work. Your point about immigrants not integrating; how many Brits who own property in France, Spain, Portugal, Cyprus etc can speak their host county languages with any decncy? A pretty small percentage I would imagine.

I totally agree with you. I would say that the vast majority of British people who move to a non-English speaking country, would not attempt to learn that language, which is completely wrong. However, that is an issue for that particular country to sort out.

I only care about the situation in this country and I would say that, as a basic requirement, anyone who wishes to live and work in the UK, should be able to read, write and speak English to a fair degree.

Same with British workers having freedom of movement within the EU. I know that people from this country can move to work in France, Spain, Germany etc. But again, that doesn't bother me, i'm only concerned about the situation here. I'd be more concerned as to the reasons WHY someone felt the need to work elsewhere, in the first place. We should have a situation where no-one wants to leave and no-one is forced to move elsewhere for better working conditions.

The government of every single nation, should be the ones making the decisions on who enters their country, no-one else.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I totally agree with you. I would say that the vast majority of British people who move to a non-English speaking country, would not attempt to learn that language, which is completely wrong. However, that is an issue for that particular country to sort out.

I only care about the situation in this country and I would say that, as a basic requirement, anyone who wishes to live and work in the UK, should be able to read, write and speak English to a fair degree.

Same with British workers having freedom of movement within the EU. I know that people from this country can move to work in France, Spain, Germany etc. But again, that doesn't bother me, i'm only concerned about the situation here. I'd be more concerned as to the reasons WHY someone felt the need to work elsewhere, in the first place. We should have a situation where no-one wants to leave and no-one is forced to move elsewhere for better working conditions.

The government of every single nation, should be the ones making the decisions on who enters their country, no-one else.


Many many jobs entail overseas work, Merchant Seaman being one of them:greengrin However nowadays it is a simple fact of 5 maybe 6 times the salary:agree:

[majorhibs]

I totally agree with you. I would say that the vast majority of British people who move to a non-English speaking country, would not attempt to learn that language, which is completely wrong. However, that is an issue for that particular country to sort out.

I only care about the situation in this country and I would say that, as a basic requirement, anyone who wishes to live and work in the UK, should be able to read, write and speak English to a fair degree.

Same with British workers having freedom of movement within the EU. I know that people from this country can move to work in France, Spain, Germany etc. But again, that doesn't bother me, i'm only concerned about the situation here. I'd be more concerned as to the reasons WHY someone felt the need to work elsewhere, in the first place. We should have a situation where no-one wants to leave and no-one is forced to move elsewhere for better working conditions.

The government of every single nation, should be the ones making the decisions on who enters their country, no-one else.

Ok, when I'm at my house in Spain, and everyone is using English as the language to converse in as thats the language everyone understands I have to learn Spanish? 2 days ago I got the train in Brussels travelling to Holland, the train had just come from Paris, when the Dutch police got on to check passports, the language they used with French, Belgians & Dutch, plus me, was English. I agree to an extent if your in a place you should make a bit of an effort, and the locals really appreciate it, but theres a bit of a rumour going around the now that UK people abroad are lazy and igmorant, there may be something in that but theres 2 sides to the story, I find in Europe watching their TV channels its a mixture of their own language and English a lot, and of course all the nonsense from Hollywood, sometimes they dub movies but often they dont. As for working abroad, after 15 years of North Sea winters I fancied working in a bit of sunshine for a change, and working in the UK cant offer much of that.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Cannot really comment. Work for an Italian company's Swiss manning agency in a joint venture with an American company in Nigeria buidling a gas plant for an American oil company in a joint venture with a Nigerian and a South African company.

That's PC gone mad!

[kollontai]

There are now 150 million people who have left their homeland to look for work.When big business wants to move it can do so with impunity but when workers do the same they are treated like s24t .This has been a reactionary strike and Gordon Brown has stoked the flames.The real problem is that a small amount of people at the top of society are making huge profits out of us whilst we have got to suffer.Instead of scapegoating Italian or Potueguese workers the unite union should have been backing the right to strike for better pay and conditions.Instead it disgracefully sat on Gordon Browns coat tails.
I remember dockers came out in strike in favour of Enoch Powells river of blood speach in the late sixties.It took a power of arguing by socialists at the time to say they were using the wrong tactics.3 years after the event those same dock leaders became what is known as the Pentinville 5 and led to massive support throughout the country.Which culmanated in the miners strike which brought down the Heath Govt.
The waterford crystal sit in and factory occupation is an example of how workers can fight back against the bosses system.Let us remember the slogan-the workers united will never be defeated.

[Betty Boop]

There are now 150 million people who have left their homeland to look for work.When big business wants to move it can do so with impunity but when workers do the same they are treated like s24t .This has been a reactionary strike and Gordon Brown has stoked the flames.The real problem is that a small amount of people at the top of society are making huge profits out of us whilst we have got to suffer.Instead of scapegoating Italian or Potueguese workers the unite union should have been backing the right to strike for better pay and conditions.Instead it disgracefully sat on Gordon Browns coat tails.
I remember dockers came out in strike in favour of Enoch Powells river of blood speach in the late sixties.It took a power of arguing by socialists at the time to say they were using the wrong tactics.3 years after the event those same dock leaders became what is known as the Pentinville 5 and led to massive support throughout the country.Which culmanated in the miners strike which brought down the Heath Govt.
The waterford crystal sit in and factory occupation is an example of how workers can fight back against the bosses system.Let us remember the slogan-the workers united will never be defeated. :agree: Or---Workers Of The World Unite, You Have Nothing To Lose But Your Chains.

[Ed De Gramo]

The Daily Star's "British Jobs for British Workers!" campaign posters almost caused a riot in some work places....so i'm told....

End of the day...Brown said it....and just like all politicians...he's shat himself and back tracked

[kollontai]

And now Derek simpson has gone along with the daily star campaign,posing with scantilly clad models from the star outside number 10.He should get the boot along with Gordon Brown.

[The Green Goblin]

And now Derek simpson has gone along with the daily star campaign,posing with scantilly clad models from the star outside number 10.He should get the boot along with Gordon Brown.

There`s just a smidgeon of irony in that bit in bold.

GG