Same sex marriage/civil unions

[Sir David Gray]

Should marriage/civil union between two people of the same sex, be allowed?

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes why not! If two people want to make an oath to each other because they love each other, then that can only be a good thing surely.

[capitals_finest]

I voted no but tbf i don't really care as long as they don't have the right to adopt children.

[hibsdaft]

tbh i think the poll is a bit skewed by the use only of the word "marriage" which i think has religious connotations to many people. if religious people are against "gay marriage" then thats up to them and i couldn't care less.

but i don't see why people would be against gay civil union though, it just legally formalises something which already exists, just strikes me as a bit of denial on the part of those who are against it. :confused:

i would go as far as saying that if you're against gay civil union then you must be against homosexuality full stop :confused: happy to be proved wrong though

[Betty Boop]

Yes why not! If two people want to make an oath to each other because they love each other, then that can only be a good thing surely. Absolutely! :agree:

[Hibee-Bongo]

Ofcourse! What difference does it make to anybody?

[AllyF]

Yes why not! If two people want to make an oath to each other because they love each other, then that can only be a good thing surely.

Agreed.

[Sir David Gray]

It is something that I am personally against. I am certainly strongly of the belief that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. I don't have such strong opposition to civil unions, but even then, I would still tend to hold a sceptical view.

I also reject the view that if you're against civil unions for same sex couples, then you're against homosexuals. I have nothing at all against homosexuals as individual people, but I am opposed to certain issues related to homosexuality.

[Hibrandenburg]

Absolutely! :agree:

:shocked:










:aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

It is something that I am personally against. I am certainly strongly of the belief that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. I don't have such strong opposition to civil unions, but even then, I would still tend to hold a sceptical view.

I also reject the view that if you're against civil unions for same sex couples, then you're against homosexuals. I have nothing at all against homosexuals as individual people, but I am opposed to certain issues related to homosexuality.

Would interest me what those issues are FH?

[Sir David Gray]

Would interest me what those issues are FH?

Although I don't believe it is anyone's business what goes on behind closed doors between two consenting adults, I am personally against homosexual sex. And, i've pointed out in another thread that I am opposed to egg/sperm donations being made to allow homosexual couples to become parents.

And i've already said on this thread, that I am opposed to same sex marriage.

I do not consider myself to be homophobic. I strongly oppose homosexuals being discriminated against in the workplace and they have the right to live in peace and without being targetted by yobs.

It's not the act of being homosexual that I am against, as I am fully aware that it is not something that you choose to be. I am just opposed to one or two issues connected with the homosexual lifestyle.

PS-This is my 8,000th post! :partyhibb

[Phil D. Rolls]

I voted no but tbf i don't really care as long as they don't have the right to adopt children.

So it'll be all right, as long as they don't marry?

[Hibrandenburg]

Although I don't believe it is anyone's business what goes on behind closed doors between two consenting adults, I am personally against homosexual sex. And, i've pointed out in another thread that I am opposed to egg/sperm donations being made to allow homosexual couples to become parents.

And i've already said on this thread, that I am opposed to same sex marriage.

I do not consider myself to be homophobic. I strongly oppose homosexuals being discriminated against in the workplace and they have the right to live in peace and without being targetted by yobs.

It's not the act of being homosexual that I am against, as I am fully aware that it is not something that you choose to be. I am just opposed to one or two issues connected with the homosexual lifestyle.

PS-This is my 8,000th post! :partyhibb

Me neither FH, but I sometimes have an exaggerated and illogical cringe if I see two blokes kissing for example. This puts the phobia in Homophobic so I guess I am just a little bit even though it contradicts all my principles :dunno:

[Lucius Apuleius]

Me neither FH, but I sometimes have an exaggerated and illogical cringe if I see two blokes kissing for example. This puts the phobia in Homophobic so I guess I am just a little bit even though it contradicts all my principles :dunno:

Strange that eh?? Yet I have nothing agaisnst watching two burdz winching. Cannot understand it. Maybe something Freudian :confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

Strange that eh?? Yet I have nothing agaisnst watching two burdz winching. Cannot understand it. Maybe something Freudian :confused:

Males are voyeuristic by nature and what a voyeur tends to do is imagine he's taking part in what he's watching in some form or another. :jamboak:

[Jay]

Although I don't believe it is anyone's business what goes on behind closed doors between two consenting adults, I am personally against homosexual sex. And, i've pointed out in another thread that I am opposed to egg/sperm donations being made to allow homosexual couples to become parents.

And i've already said on this thread, that I am opposed to same sex marriage.

I do not consider myself to be homophobic. I strongly oppose homosexuals being discriminated against in the workplace and they have the right to live in peace and without being targetted by yobs.

It's not the act of being homosexual that I am against, as I am fully aware that it is not something that you choose to be. I am just opposed to one or two issues connected with the homosexual lifestyle.

PS-This is my 8,000th post! :partyhibb


Homosexuals are just people Falkirk - like me and you. They have every right to live their lives without discrimination and if they want to have a civil marraige then why should we think we have the right to 'not allow it'?

I wonder if you really know what a homosexual lifestyle really is - is there a stereotype? I think they would all be as different as a heterosexual lifestyle.

[Onceinawhile]

I voted yes: marriage is but a piece of paper that makes a relationship formal. Homosexuals are likely to have relationships anyway so what difference does a wedding certificate make?

I am however against gay adoption as I believe a family is Mum, Dad child. Having said that some homosexuals I would imagine would be quite an improvement on some "traditional" parents.

[capitals_finest]

So it'll be all right, as long as they don't marry?

I have nothing against gays and lesbians. I was always a bit homophobic when i was younger but i have been introduced to some gay people in the last year or so and get on great with them. They have really changed my views on gay people so i m a better person for it. However i think it's important that a child has a close mother figure and a close father figure when growing up. This is the only reason i m against it.

[andrew_dundee]

any half way to decent person should support civil partnership. the point isnt about what individuals think is ok... the real question is about wether government should be allowed to bar people from entering a union. with no offence meant to FH i fail to see why your personal objections should stand in the way of allowing other people to enter a partnership...

[Sir David Gray]

Homosexuals are just people Falkirk - like me and you. They have every right to live their lives without discrimination and if they want to have a civil marraige then why should we think we have the right to 'not allow it'?

I wonder if you really know what a homosexual lifestyle really is - is there a stereotype? I think they would all be as different as a heterosexual lifestyle.

When I said I have one or two issues with the homosexual "lifestyle", I mean homosexual sex, same sex marriage and same sex parenting. That is all.

I totally agree that they have the right to be free of discrimination, in terms of employment and they certainly have the right to be free of harrassment.

With marriage though, I do believe that should only take place between a man and a woman.

[Jay]

When I said I have one or two issues with the homosexual "lifestyle", I mean homosexual sex, same sex marriage and same sex parenting. That is all.

I totally agree that they have the right to be free of discrimination, in terms of employment and they certainly have the right to be free of harrassment.

With marriage though, I do believe that should only take place between a man and a woman.

Then I think you are homophobic - you dislike everything about them apart from the fact that they work?

Like I said before - I cant see how heterosexuals have the right to 'not allow' homosexuals to do something as simple as get married! What difference is a piece of paper? They are still going to live together and have sex.

[Steve-O]

When I said I have one or two issues with the homosexual "lifestyle", I mean homosexual sex, same sex marriage and same sex parenting. That is all.

I totally agree that they have the right to be free of discrimination, in terms of employment and they certainly have the right to be free of harrassment.

With marriage though, I do believe that should only take place between a man and a woman.

Why do you actually care if homosexuals are engaging in sex? I don't understand why that would bother you unless it was happening on your front lawn?

Same with marriage, why would someone else's marriage bother you in any way?

[SlickShoes]

When I said I have one or two issues with the homosexual "lifestyle", I mean homosexual sex, same sex marriage and same sex parenting. That is all.

I totally agree that they have the right to be free of discrimination, in terms of employment and they certainly have the right to be free of harrassment.

With marriage though, I do believe that should only take place between a man and a woman.

Regarding homosexual sex, what is it you have against it? If two people consent to have sexual relations with eachother surely thats the end of the matter?

What aspect of there sex would affect you?

[Aaron]

Why should gay people not be allowed to marry or get a civil partnership?

When a couple (hetro or homo) get married / civil partnership it gives them a lot of rights they would not of had before such as:

- property rights
- inheritance
- visiting rights in hostpital
- etc etc etc.

Also, why should you be so bothered about homosexual sex? I don't care what enyone else does with their pecker.

[Sir David Gray]

Then I think you are homophobic - you dislike everything about them apart from the fact that they work?

Like I said before - I cant see how heterosexuals have the right to 'not allow' homosexuals to do something as simple as get married! What difference is a piece of paper? They are still going to live together and have sex.

I'm not surprised at all that people think that, by it's definition then I suppose I am technically "homophobic". I just do not consider myself to be homophobic as I believe homophobia is when you outwardly hate homosexuals and go out of your way to harrass them, and possibly even worse.

I would never dream of harrassing any homosexual person and I would condemn anyone who did. I have a distant relative who is a homosexual and he is in a relationship. I don't see him very often, as he lives in England, but when I do see him, although I disapprove of his relationship, I would never dream of being disrespectful or hurtful towards him.

Put it this way, if I saw someone, who I knew was homosexual, getting beaten up on the street, I would go and help them without having to think twice.

Would I do that, if I was really homophobic?

You say that marriage is a "simple" act, I completely disagree.

Marriage, to me, is an institution that has huge implications and responsibilities. It is not "just a piece of paper" and therefore, I believe that a marriage can, and should, only take place between a man and a woman.


Regarding homosexual sex, what is it you have against it? If two people consent to have sexual relations with eachother surely thats the end of the matter?

What aspect of there sex would affect you?

I've already said that whatever two consenting adults get up to, in the privacy of their own home, is their business and their business only. I would not call for homosexuals to be banned from having sex.

It's not a question of whether it affects me or not, it's just a personal opinion that I hold, which is that sex should only take place between two people of the opposite sex.

[Jay]

I'm not surprised at all that people think that, by it's definition then I suppose I am technically "homophobic". I just do not consider myself to be homophobic as I believe homophobia is when you outwardly hate homosexuals and go out of your way to harrass them, and possibly even worse.

I would never dream of harrassing any homosexual person and I would condemn anyone who did. I have a distant relative who is a homosexual and he is in a relationship. I don't see him very often, as he lives in England, but when I do see him, although I disapprove of his relationship, I would never dream of being disrespectful or hurtful towards him.

Put it this way, if I saw someone, who I knew was homosexual, getting beaten up on the street, I would go and help them without having to think twice.

Would I do that, if I was really homophobic?

You say that marriage is a "simple" act, I completely disagree.

Marriage, to me, is an institution that has huge implications and responsibilities. It is not "just a piece of paper" and therefore, I believe that a marriage can, and should, only take place between a man and a woman.



I've already said that whatever two consenting adults get up to, in the privacy of their own home, is their business and their business only. I would not call for homosexuals to be banned from having sex.

It's not a question of whether it affects me or not, it's just a personal opinion that I hold, which is that sex should only take place between two people of the opposite sex.

I mean homophobic in antipathy of gay people or the dislike of them not the bad treatment of them.

[SlickShoes]

I've already said that whatever two consenting adults get up to, in the privacy of their own home, is their business and their business only. I would not call for homosexuals to be banned from having sex.

It's not a question of whether it affects me or not, it's just a personal opinion that I hold, which is that sex should only take place between two people of the opposite sex.


You also said earlier and i quote "When I said I have one or two issues with the homosexual "lifestyle", I mean homosexual sex"

So what issues do you have with it? Other than you think its shouldnt happen, why do you think it shouldnt happen?

[Sergio sledge]

I mean homophobic in antipathy of gay people or the dislike of them not the bad treatment of them.

But can't you see the difference between disliking the activity, in this case homosexual sex, and disliking the person?

I personally believe that homosexual sex is wrong, and I don't like it. If I see two men, or ladies kissing, it is weird, and doesn't feel natural to me. That's not to say I dislike the person. I've got one very good friend who's gay, and when he came out, it didn't make any difference to our friendship. I don't like what he does, I don't agree with it, but I treat it the same way as I would treat a friend who is a celtic fan, or a friend who did drugs. I'd tell them how I felt about it, and then go on as normal. It doesn't change the person if they make a lifestyle choice I don't agree with.

The charge that is always levelled at me is "you are homophobic!" I'm not, I don't like or agree with homosexual activity, but whether a person is gay or not doesn't make any difference to how I treat them or how we get on.

Why is it ok to disagree with one lifestyle choice, like doing drugs, and not ok to disagree with another lifestyle choice, being homosexual?

There's an old phrase which my grandfather used to say (don't know if it is from the bible or not..) "Love the sinner, hate the sin"

That's my philosophy. (Although in this particular situation, I'm always careful that there's not too much love going round....:faf:)

[Jay]

I have no problem with the homosexual lifestyle but understand (cant see why but know that) that others do. Surely there are different ways to look at homophobia - I take it as the dislike of all things homosexual which is what you and Falkirk are stating. Its a step further to take it to treating them badly which I susect neither of you do.

[hibbybob]

A few years ago a few of my Hibby friends had kids around the same time. After a home game we were all sitting in the pub when somebody raised the question - What would you be happier with, your son coming home and telling you he was gay OR coming home and telling you he was a Jambo. To a man it was declared that gay was the preferred option!

FWIW - live and let live! If marriage / civil partnership will make two people happy or even just financially more secure then they should go for it.

[Sir David Gray]

But can't you see the difference between disliking the activity, in this case homosexual sex, and disliking the person?

I personally believe that homosexual sex is wrong, and I don't like it. If I see two men, or ladies kissing, it is weird, and doesn't feel natural to me. That's not to say I dislike the person. I've got one very good friend who's gay, and when he came out, it didn't make any difference to our friendship. I don't like what he does, I don't agree with it, but I treat it the same way as I would treat a friend who is a celtic fan, or a friend who did drugs. I'd tell them how I felt about it, and then go on as normal. It doesn't change the person if they make a lifestyle choice I don't agree with.

The charge that is always levelled at me is "you are homophobic!" I'm not, I don't like or agree with homosexual activity, but whether a person is gay or not doesn't make any difference to how I treat them or how we get on.

Why is it ok to disagree with one lifestyle choice, like doing drugs, and not ok to disagree with another lifestyle choice, being homosexual?

There's an old phrase which my grandfather used to say (don't know if it is from the bible or not..) "Love the sinner, hate the sin"

That's my philosophy. (Although in this particular situation, I'm always careful that there's not too much love going round....:faf:)

That's basically summed up my feelings in one post.

I agree with that, pretty much word for word.

[QUOTE=SlickShoes;1935272]You also said earlier and i quote "When I said I have one or two issues with the homosexual "lifestyle", I mean homosexual sex"

So what issues do you have with it? Other than you think its shouldnt happen, why do you think it shouldnt happen? [\QUOTE]

Read Sergio sledge's post below. It basically echoes my entire view on this issue.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I am actually with FalkirkHibee and Sergio. I was in the catering staff in the Merchant Navy for 28 years so I would imagine I know more homosexuals than most people, especially from my earlier days on passenger liners (bit different to the roughty toughty tanker men!!). Anyway, I have absolutely no problem with homosexuals and for sure count a few as very good friends. However, I see what they are saying about the act of homosexual sex. Is it fear? latent desire? not a clue, but the thought of an exit hole becoming an entry hole :paranoid::bitchy::boo hoo:

I guess I am more with Sergio, not a problem with the person, could I live their lifestyle? Same as drug abusers etc., absolutely not. Their choice and they are welcome to live it as long as it is not tried to be forced upon me.

[GhostofBolivar]

It is something that I am personally against. I am certainly strongly of the belief that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. I don't have such strong opposition to civil unions, but even then, I would still tend to hold a sceptical view.

I also reject the view that if you're against civil unions for same sex couples, then you're against homosexuals. I have nothing at all against homosexuals as individual people, but I am opposed to certain issues related to homosexuality.

But you are in favour of discriminating against them based on their sexual preference :cool2:

Married couples are given legal benefits because of the status their relationship enjoys before the law (eg spouses are normally considered the next of kin).

Denying homosexual couples these same priviledges discriminates against them.

[GhostofBolivar]

But can't you see the difference between disliking the activity, in this case homosexual sex, and disliking the person?

I personally believe that homosexual sex is wrong, and I don't like it. If I see two men, or ladies kissing, it is weird, and doesn't feel natural to me. That's not to say I dislike the person. I've got one very good friend who's gay, and when he came out, it didn't make any difference to our friendship. I don't like what he does, I don't agree with it, but I treat it the same way as I would treat a friend who is a celtic fan, or a friend who did drugs. I'd tell them how I felt about it, and then go on as normal. It doesn't change the person if they make a lifestyle choice I don't agree with.

The charge that is always levelled at me is "you are homophobic!" I'm not, I don't like or agree with homosexual activity, but whether a person is gay or not doesn't make any difference to how I treat them or how we get on.

Why is it ok to disagree with one lifestyle choice, like doing drugs, and not ok to disagree with another lifestyle choice, being homosexual?

There's an old phrase which my grandfather used to say (don't know if it is from the bible or not..) "Love the sinner, hate the sin"

That's my philosophy. (Although in this particular situation, I'm always careful that there's not too much love going round....:faf:)

Is being heterosexual a lifestyle choice?

Or is it something you're born?

:cool2:

A choice is a conscious decision. Whether or not a person is homosexual isn't.

[Sergio sledge]

Is being heterosexual a lifestyle choice?

Or is it something you're born?

:cool2:

A choice is a conscious decision. Whether or not a person is homosexual isn't.

But whether or not they act on it is....

I could choose to be celibate, I could choose to be promiscuous, I could choose to have 1 sexual partner my whole life. Homosexuals can choose exactly the same thing.

[SlickShoes]

I am actually with FalkirkHibee and Sergio. I was in the catering staff in the Merchant Navy for 28 years so I would imagine I know more homosexuals than most people, especially from my earlier days on passenger liners (bit different to the roughty toughty tanker men!!). Anyway, I have absolutely no problem with homosexuals and for sure count a few as very good friends. However, I see what they are saying about the act of homosexual sex. Is it fear? latent desire? not a clue, but the thought of an exit hole becoming an entry hole :paranoid::bitchy::boo hoo:

I guess I am more with Sergio, not a problem with the person, could I live their lifestyle? Same as drug abusers etc., absolutely not. Their choice and they are welcome to live it as long as it is not tried to be forced upon me.

NEWS FLASH! This isnt just homosexual sex, many hetrosexual couples enjoy this practice, its not for me but if some people enjoy it then thats up to them.

I dont see why i should hold it against them just because i dont fancy it.

[Lucius Apuleius]

NEWS FLASH! This isnt just homosexual sex, many hetrosexual couples enjoy this practice, its not for me but if some people enjoy it then thats up to them.

I dont see why i should hold it against them just because i dont fancy it.

Absolutely. However apart from a few males who may enjoy this within heterosexual sex it remains an exit hole!!!! And I certainly would not hold it against them or anywhere near them.

[ancienthibby]

I have no problem with the homosexual lifestyle but understand (cant see why but know that) that others do. Surely there are different ways to look at homophobia - I take it as the dislike of all things homosexual which is what you and Falkirk are stating. Its a step further to take it to treating them badly which I susect neither of you do.

H'Mum,

I think (with respect) you are applying a not uncommon understanding of the term 'homophobia' to what Falkirk Hibee (FH) has been saying. Here's what my online dictionary defines as 'homophobia':

'–noun
unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality.'

I have followed all of FH's posts and in none can I find anything that suggests 'unreasoning fear' or 'antipathy'. Very much the opposite I would suggest. Cool, rational argument and concern for the individual.

I think Sergio makes a valid point later on about 'loving the sinner, hating the sin'. Taking that position then, this dictionary definition does not in anyway merit judging FH (or sympathisers) as 'homophobic'

[Jay]

H'Mum,

I think (with respect) you are applying a not uncommon understanding of the term 'homophobia' to what Falkirk Hibee (FH) has been saying. Here's what my online dictionary defines as 'homophobia':

'–noun
unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality.'

I have followed all of FH's posts and in none can I find anything that suggests 'unreasoning fear' or 'antipathy'. Very much the opposite I would suggest. Cool, rational argument and concern for the individual.

I think Sergio makes a valid point later on about 'loving the sinner, hating the sin'. Taking that position then, this dictionary definition does not in anyway merit judging FH (or sympathisers) as 'homophobic'


I disagree AH in my dictionary the meaning of antipathy is;

1. a natural, basic, or habitual repugnance; aversion.
2. an instinctive contrariety or opposition in feeling.
3. an object of natural aversion or habitual dislike

Which I think FH has shown. I have never said he would discriminate openly against homosexuals but I feel he certainly shows at least 2 of the above in his posts.

[HibsMax]

I voted yes because I believe that same sex couples should be entitled to the same privileges as other couples. Why should a married man and woman receive tax benefits while a same sex couple cannot? That's just one example.

As for adoption, I don't have a problem with that either. I understand that some people will say that a child needs both a mother and a father but let's face it, how many dysfunctional families are there out there? How many single-parents are there? I don't believe there is any evidence that suggests that a same sex couple will make worse parents than more "conventional" family units.

I don't even want to touch on the religious aspect. Religious beliefs should only apply to those who actually believe. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and I relish the discussion of them but keep them out of my life. I will not live my life according to the rules you have chosen to follow.

For the record, and this may sound hypocritical, but I don't really "agree" with the lifestyle. I don't have problems with gay people personally but speaking purely from a natural point of view, I believe it is wrong. This has nothing to do with morals or burning in hell, I'm speaking purely from the procreation perspective.

[ancienthibby]

I disagree AH in my dictionary the meaning of antipathy is;

1. a natural, basic, or habitual repugnance; aversion.
2. an instinctive contrariety or opposition in feeling.
3. an object of natural aversion or habitual dislike

Which I think FH has shown. I have never said he would discriminate openly against homosexuals but I feel he certainly shows at least 2 of the above in his posts.

I ken where that view comes from H'Mum but I think that FH shows much more sympathy than antipathy!!:greengrin

The world would be a much better place if more people subscribed to the basic principles which FH has well articulated!

[Jay]

I ken where that view comes from H'Mum but I think that FH shows much more sympathy than antipathy!!:greengrin

The world would be a much better place if more people subscribed to the basic principles which FH has well articulated!


Sympathy? I honestly cant agree with that. I think FH has shown a complete dislike of all things homosexual - not particularly individuals but certainly the lifestyle.

I have full respect for FH and his beliefs although I disagree with them and have discussed that by PM with him but I'd like to hear if he thinks he sympathises with gay people. To be honest I feel to sympathise with them is very condescending - its like there is something wrong with them.

FWIW I think if the world was filled with people with my principles we would do just fine.

[500miles]

They should be held in the same regard as staight married couples by the state, and for this reason, I voted yes. However, if a religion objects to a homosexual lifestyle, then they should not be forced to participate IMO.

[Sir David Gray]

I ken where that view comes from H'Mum but I think that FH shows much more sympathy than antipathy!!:greengrin

The world would be a much better place if more people subscribed to the basic principles which FH has well articulated!


Sympathy? I honestly cant agree with that. I think FH has shown a complete dislike of all things homosexual - not particularly individuals but certainly the lifestyle.

I have full respect for FH and his beliefs although I disagree with them and have discussed that by PM with him but I'd like to hear if he thinks he sympathises with gay people. To be honest I feel to sympathise with them is very condescending - its like there is something wrong with them.

FWIW I think if the world was filled with people with my principles we would do just fine.

I don't sympathise with homosexuals, because having sympathy for someone/thing means that you pity them/it. I don't see why homosexuals require pity.


But whether or not they act on it is....

I could choose to be celibate, I could choose to be promiscuous, I could choose to have 1 sexual partner my whole life. Homosexuals can choose exactly the same thing.

Agreed.

[Hibrandenburg]

But can't you see the difference between disliking the activity, in this case homosexual sex, and disliking the person?

I personally believe that homosexual sex is wrong, and I don't like it. If I see two men, or ladies kissing, it is weird, and doesn't feel natural to me. That's not to say I dislike the person. I've got one very good friend who's gay, and when he came out, it didn't make any difference to our friendship. I don't like what he does, I don't agree with it, but I treat it the same way as I would treat a friend who is a celtic fan, or a friend who did drugs. I'd tell them how I felt about it, and then go on as normal. It doesn't change the person if they make a lifestyle choice I don't agree with.

The charge that is always levelled at me is "you are homophobic!" I'm not, I don't like or agree with homosexual activity, but whether a person is gay or not doesn't make any difference to how I treat them or how we get on.

Why is it ok to disagree with one lifestyle choice, like doing drugs, and not ok to disagree with another lifestyle choice, being homosexual?
There's an old phrase which my grandfather used to say (don't know if it is from the bible or not..) "Love the sinner, hate the sin"

That's my philosophy. (Although in this particular situation, I'm always careful that there's not too much love going round....:faf:)

Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. Either you are or you're not. The comparison of it to taking drugs or being a football fan is erroneous. Some homosexual people may be able to repress their sexuality, but why should they? It's like asking your cat to bark because you prefer dogs.

[Jay]

I don't sympathise with homosexuals, because having sympathy for someone/thing means that you pity them/it. I don't see why homosexuals require pity.


See! :smug:

:devil:

[LiverpoolHibs]

I don't sympathise with homosexuals, because having sympathy for someone/thing means that you pity them/it. I don't see why homosexuals require pity.

That's a pretty odd definition of 'sympathy'. :confused:

[Sir David Gray]

That's a pretty odd definition of 'sympathy'. :confused:

Surely if you sympathise with someone then you feel sorry for them. :confused:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Surely if you sympathise with someone then you feel sorry for them. :confused:

Of course not.

Sympathy just means being with/understanding another person's emotional condition. There's no notion of pity involved unless people try to make it so.

Syn + Pathos, innit. :wink:

[Sir David Gray]

Of course not.

Sympathy just means being with/understanding another person's emotional condition. There's no notion of pity involved unless people try to make it so.

Syn + Pathos, innit. :wink:

I stand corrected. :wink:

[Pete]

When people say they "disagree" with homosexual sex what do they actually mean?

I'd be pretty insulted if I were homosexual and somebody told me my sexual activites met with your dissaproval...but you as a person were alright!

To some gay people "natural" sexual activity fills them with repulsion and the whole subject can be made to sound disgusting if you want it to....even staight sex between a man and a woman.

I don't think any homophobia is being shown here...just uneasiness.

[Sergio sledge]

Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. Either you are or you're not. The comparison of it to taking drugs or being a football fan is erroneous. Some homosexual people may be able to repress their sexuality, but why should they? It's like asking your cat to bark because you prefer dogs.

See my earlier reply. I probably phrased that bit wrong.

I could decide to go out tonight looking for some no strings fun with a random girl. Some folk would disagree with that choice, some wouldn't. Its exactly the same for gay people IMHO.

Oh, and I'm not asking anyone to repress any urges they may have, or be something they're not, it's their choice, why am I not allowed to disagree with their choices without being labelled homophobic? (not specifically aimed at you btw!)

[Aaron]

Why is it ok to disagree with one lifestyle choice, like doing drugs, and not ok to disagree with another lifestyle choice, being homosexual?

Can I ask when you decided and chose to become hetrosexual? (guessing that you are).

[Aaron]

But whether or not they act on it is....

I could choose to be celibate, I could choose to be promiscuous, I could choose to have 1 sexual partner my whole life. Homosexuals can choose exactly the same thing.

You could also choose to be celibate but I guess you have not chosen that?

[Dashing Bob S]

I am actually with FalkirkHibee and Sergio. I was in the catering staff in the Merchant Navy for 28 years so I would imagine I know more homosexuals than most people, especially from my earlier days on passenger liners (bit different to the roughty toughty tanker men!!). Anyway, I have absolutely no problem with homosexuals and for sure count a few as very good friends. However, I see what they are saying about the act of homosexual sex. Is it fear? latent desire? not a clue, but the thought of an exit hole becoming an entry hole :paranoid::bitchy::boo hoo:

I guess I am more with Sergio, not a problem with the person, could I live their lifestyle? Same as drug abusers etc., absolutely not. Their choice and they are welcome to live it as long as it is not tried to be forced upon me.

It's established that more heterosexual men now practice sodomy (on women) than gay men (on other gay men). Survey's consistently put British heterosexuals regularly having anal sex at around 10% and homosexuals at around 85%. Only one in 10 men in the UK, so this means that their are still almost twice as many straight men 'using the exit hole as an entry hole' as there are gay men.

[Lucius Apuleius]

It's established that more heterosexual men now practice sodomy (on women) than gay men (on other gay men). Survey's consistently put British heterosexuals regularly having anal sex at around 10% and homosexuals at around 85%. Only one in 10 men in the UK, so this means that their are still almost twice as many straight men 'using the exit hole as an entry hole' as there are gay men.


I'll believe you, not statistics I have ever felt the need to research.

[Flynn]

Married couples are given legal benefits because of the status their relationship enjoys before the law (eg spouses are normally considered the next of kin).

Denying homosexual couples these same priviledges discriminates against them.

The government should treat everyone as an individual no matter what. Legal benefits due to the status of marriage is wrong. What if you are ugly and an idiot and can't find someone to marry you. That is a form of discrimination too.

[New Corrie]

The government should treat everyone as an individual no matter what. Legal benefits due to the status of marriage is wrong. What if you are ugly and an idiot and can't find someone to marry you. That is a form of discrimination too.


Interesting thread yet we still end up talking about Hearts supporters.

[Woody1985]

The government should treat everyone as an individual no matter what. Legal benefits due to the status of marriage is wrong. What if you are ugly and an idiot and can't find someone to marry you. That is a form of discrimination too.

I can think of a few people like that who are married. :bitchy:

[HibsMax]

I am actually with FalkirkHibee and Sergio. I was in the catering staff in the Merchant Navy for 28 years so I would imagine I know more homosexuals than most people, especially from my earlier days on passenger liners (bit different to the roughty toughty tanker men!!). Anyway, I have absolutely no problem with homosexuals and for sure count a few as very good friends. However, I see what they are saying about the act of homosexual sex. Is it fear? latent desire? not a clue, but the thought of an exit hole becoming an entry hole :paranoid::bitchy::boo hoo:

I guess I am more with Sergio, not a problem with the person, could I live their lifestyle? Same as drug abusers etc., absolutely not. Their choice and they are welcome to live it as long as it is not tried to be forced upon me.

Nothing wrong with a little Greek now and again. :wink:

[GhostofBolivar]

Nothing wrong with a little Greek now and again. :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1h0pjVwGDI

[Lucius Apuleius]

Nothing wrong with a little Greek now and again. :wink:

Paedofillia as well ????????????????????

[JennaFletcher]

I have been really shocked in reading this poll, particularly of the opinions voiced by FalkirkHibbee.

I know both LGB people and straight people. And I firmly agree that marriage and adoption should apply to homosexual couples which meet the criteria. It's a civil right. At the end of the day, it's all about LOVE. And if a guy loves a guy, a woman loves a woman or a woman loves a man/man loves a woman then it shouldn't matter either way... we should all accept, tolerate and respect each others differences.

Btw FH, you're basically in denial. 'I'M NOT HOMOPHOBIC BUT...' You say you're not against homosexuality yet you have major issues with the idea of homosexual marriage and homosexuality amongst other 'issues connected with the homosexual lifestyle'. As a supporter of LGBT rights I would argue that there is not a homosexual 'lifestyle' - not all gay people do certain things a stereotypical way. You're also quite immature in saying that you don't like the idea of homosexual sex - who cares? I'm sure there's plenty heterosexual people out there who partake in acts that are probably more deviant than homosexual sex!

Oh and lastly, well done to certain posters on this thread (especially Hiberni-Mum) for their accurate, intelligent and well respected input. Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

[Lucius Apuleius]

Doesn't happen in Nigeria seemingly, from the paper today:


Nigeria defended its human rights record at the Universal periodic review mechanism of the UN Human Rights Council and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Chief Ojo Madueke, presented an overview of Nigeria's human rights policies and adressed issues on the rights of women, the death penalty and Nigeria's Justice system, the Niger Delta, extra judicial killing and the state of prisons.

During his presentation, Chief Ojo Madueke, said that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs could not include any gay people in consultations on the human rights situation in Nigeria as the Nigerian government has been unable to locate any gay people in Nigeria.,

He said that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs located only one lesbian and when she was invited to participate in a discussion on the rights of gay and lesbians, she told the ministry that she was pregnant

[CropleyWasGod]

Doesn't happen in Nigeria seemingly, from the paper today:


Nigeria defended its human rights record at the Universal periodic review mechanism of the UN Human Rights Council and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Chief Ojo Madueke, presented an overview of Nigeria's human rights policies and adressed issues on the rights of women, the death penalty and Nigeria's Justice system, the Niger Delta, extra judicial killing and the state of prisons.

During his presentation, Chief Ojo Madueke, said that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs could not include any gay people in consultations on the human rights situation in Nigeria as the Nigerian government has been unable to locate any gay people in Nigeria.,

He said that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs located only one lesbian and when she was invited to participate in a discussion on the rights of gay and lesbians, she told the ministry that she was pregnant

Brilliant! Do you have a link?

[Pretty Boy]

I find the people saying they are disturbed by/disagreeable to homosexual sex slightly confusing. I am hetrosexual and have absolutely no desire to engage in homosexual sex, however the thought of 2 consenting adults, whether male or female, doing so gets no reaction from me whatsover. It's not something i would engage in but it doesn't disturb or disgust me that other people do so and enjoy it.

As for civil union/marriage why not? I think there are many homosexual couples who could make a far more successful attempt at marriage than some so called normal couples.

[Sir David Gray]

I have been really shocked in reading this poll, particularly of the opinions voiced by FalkirkHibbee.

I know both LGB people and straight people. And I firmly agree that marriage and adoption should apply to homosexual couples which meet the criteria. It's a civil right. At the end of the day, it's all about LOVE. And if a guy loves a guy, a woman loves a woman or a woman loves a man/man loves a woman then it shouldn't matter either way... we should all accept, tolerate and respect each others differences.

Btw FH, you're basically in denial. 'I'M NOT HOMOPHOBIC BUT...' You say you're not against homosexuality yet you have major issues with the idea of homosexual marriage and homosexuality amongst other 'issues connected with the homosexual lifestyle'. As a supporter of LGBT rights I would argue that there is not a homosexual 'lifestyle' - not all gay people do certain things a stereotypical way. You're also quite immature in saying that you don't like the idea of homosexual sex - who cares? I'm sure there's plenty heterosexual people out there who partake in acts that are probably more deviant than homosexual sex!

Oh and lastly, well done to certain posters on this thread (especially Hiberni-Mum) for their accurate, intelligent and well respected input. Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

Thanks for the input.

You may not agree with me, which is your right, but I don't think you can say i'm immature. There are plenty of people who don't agree with same sex marriage, it has no bearing on levels of maturity.

I believe that I am fairly mature and I would hope that my posts on here have, in the main, displayed that. I have some very strong views that I know, aren't opinions that are held by the majority. That doesn't mean that I am any less mature than someone with an opposing viewpoint.

I also don't see how i'm in denial. I personally don't think i'm homophobic, because my definition of homophobia is when people go out of their way to harrass a homosexual person or deny them a job if you're an employer and other similar acts. I would never dream of doing either of those things.

However, I understand that others have a different view as to what constitutes homophobia, which is why I know that, to many people, I will be viewed as homophobic.

With regards to the bit where you say "You say you're not against homosexuality", what I actually said was that I wasn't against homosexuals as individual people.

Finally you congratulate other people for their "accurate, intelligent and well respected input".

An opinion, which is what we've all displayed here, cannot be more (or less) accurate than any other. I would also like to think that most people, whether they agree or disagree with me, would respect my views. I have spoken to Hiberni-Mum through PM and whilst she disagrees with my views, she certainly respects what I have said. The same applies with me and her views.

There is a difference between disagreement and disrespect.

Anyway, it's been good hearing your side of the debate.

[JennaFletcher]

As you might not have recognised in my previous post I am very pro LGBT rights, hence my obvious wholeheartedness and honesty on the subject.

If I'm entitled to my righteous opinion as you point out, I am within my right to deem you immature - this is because I find it baffling how you claim to be 'against homosexual sex' - Whatever people get up to is none of mine nor your business and you should be able to respect the fact that not everyone is like yourself. Furthermore, it is immature in my mind that people are against same sex marriage purely for the fact that love is a basic human instinct which people cannot fight. Also, people should be entitled to marry whomever they love. It's not like it jeopardises heterosexual marriage in any way shape or form.

You may be fairly mature in other aspects of opinion, but in the twenty first century I find it quite disgusting that people can still be so bigoted and small minded.

The point is, you can have strong views but your views aren't justified other than it's a case of something you don't like and don't agree with. I don't agree with the fact that Hearts fans surround me in Edinburgh, but I don't dislike their way of life.

'I also don't see how i'm in denial. I personally don't think i'm homophobic, because my definition of homophobia is when people go out of their way to harrass a homosexual person or deny them a job if you're an employer and other similar acts. I would never dream of doing either of those things.' - So basically - homophobia is only homophobia when it is violent or abusive?? It can only occur in discrimination related to work?? Homophobia (from Greek homós: one and the same; phóbos: fear, phobia) is an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. Therefore you can be judged as homophobic as you have an irrational dislike to the though of gay people together, in marriage and/or sex - as you have displayed.

It's not that I have a different view to homophobia or what constitutes it, it's a fact that homophobia is an irrational fear of homosexuals, which judging by your posts - you seem to possess quite a bit.

'With regards to the bit where you say "You say you're not against homosexuality", what I actually said was that I wasn't against homosexuals as individual people.' - What does this mean? You're against homosexuals as a collective??! Your against homosexuality full stop.

'Finally you congratulate other people for their "accurate, intelligent and well respected input".' - this is because I feel they are sincere and have good argument on the topic.

'An opinion, which is what we've all displayed here, cannot be more (or less) accurate than any other.' - it's not an opinion, it's about treating people with the same respect that you'd expect in return.

'I would also like to think that most people, whether they agree or disagree with me, would respect my views.' - I accept you have differing views but I certainly don't respect them. I respect them in the sense that we're all different and have different opinions on things, but I don't respect them because I believe they are somewhat cold, crude and unnecessary.

:agree: Just my opinion.

And do not feel that I am talking purely about yourself, it's homophobia as a whole.

[Sergio sledge]

As you might not have recognised in my previous post I am very pro LGBT rights, hence my obvious wholeheartedness and honesty on the subject.

I think we all gathered that....:greengrin


'An opinion, which is what we've all displayed here, cannot be more (or less) accurate than any other.' - it's not an opinion, it's about treating people with the same respect that you'd expect in return.

'I would also like to think that most people, whether they agree or disagree with me, would respect my views.' - I accept you have differing views but I certainly don't respect them. I respect them in the sense that we're all different and have different opinions on things, but I don't respect them because I believe they are somewhat cold, crude and unnecessary.

Interesting that you choose to end your post with these words considering you said earlier on in your post:


If I'm entitled to my righteous opinion as you point out, I am within my right to deem you immature - this is because I find it baffling how you claim to be 'against homosexual sex' - Whatever people get up to is none of mine nor your business and you should be able to respect the fact that not everyone is like yourself. Furthermore, it is immature in my mind that people are against same sex marriage purely for the fact that love is a basic human instinct which people cannot fight. Also, people should be entitled to marry whomever they love. It's not like it jeopardises heterosexual marriage in any way shape or form.

Typical of the kind of attitude one is bombarded with when they mention they have opinions which are different to the 'tolerant' view. It's funny how some of the people who claim to be the most tolerant, cannot tolerate an opinion different to their own. This is intolerance. FH and myself have said all along that although we may think its wrong there we do not discriminate against the person, or treat them any different because of it. If you are happy to call people immature, bigotted and small minded for daring to have a different opinion than yourself, then you are intolerant and hypocritical. You said:


it's about treating people with the same respect that you'd expect in return

You obviously don't expect people to treat you very nicely and with much respect if you are happy to call people like FH and myself bigots and small minded, merely for stating a different opinion to yourself.

Think about it....:rolleyes:


You may be fairly mature in other aspects of opinion, but in the twenty first century I find it quite disgusting that people can still be so bigoted and small minded.

Already dealt with, but I would hope an apology is forthcoming for this uncalled for and undeserved attack on FH's character.


The point is, you can have strong views but your views aren't justified other than it's a case of something you don't like and don't agree with. I don't agree with the fact that Hearts fans surround me in Edinburgh, but I don't dislike their way of life.

Who says they're not justified? You think they're not justified, but that is only your opinion.


So basically - homophobia is only homophobia when it is violent or abusive?? It can only occur in discrimination related to work?? Homophobia (from Greek homós: one and the same; phóbos: fear, phobia) is an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. Therefore you can be judged as homophobic as you have an irrational dislike to the though of gay people together, in marriage and/or sex - as you have displayed.

It's not that I have a different view to homophobia or what constitutes it, it's a fact that homophobia is an irrational fear of homosexuals, which judging by your posts - you seem to possess quite a bit.

Where has he said he's scared or afraid of homosexuals? In fact where has anyone said that? You can quote the dictionary definition all you like, but the fact is that people have different interpretations of what homophobia is. I must admit I didn't know the dictionary definition before this thread, so I have learnt something from this, I digress though.... I had always understood homophobia to be discrimination against homosexuals purely on the grounds of their sexuality, or attacks on homosexuals purely on the grounds of their sexuality, or a fear of homosexuals purely on the grounds of homosexuality. IMHO, neither FH or myself, or anyone else who has expressed a view that homosexual sex is somehow wrong, or un-natural, has displayed any of these traits.


'With regards to the bit where you say "You say you're not against homosexuality", what I actually said was that I wasn't against homosexuals as individual people.' - What does this mean? You're against homosexuals as a collective??! Your against homosexuality full stop.

Its pretty clear what he means, and it has been discussed earlier on in the thread. He has nothing against the people themselves, just the act of homosexual sex. An opinion formed based on his religious beliefs I would assume. As I said earlier in the thread, "Love the sinner, hate the sin."


'Finally you congratulate other people for their "accurate, intelligent and well respected input".' - this is because I feel they are sincere and have good argument on the topic.

The way you said:


Oh and lastly, well done to certain posters on this thread (especially Hiberni-Mum) for their accurate, intelligent and well respected input. Keep up the good work

Came across as condescending towards those of us who had dared to voice a differing opinion, as if our input wasn't accurate, intelligent and well respected. That in itself shows a lack of respect IMHO.


'An opinion, which is what we've all displayed here, cannot be more (or less) accurate than any other.' - it's not an opinion, it's about treating people with the same respect that you'd expect in return.

Ah yes, the respect thing again. It is an interesting and hard to grasp concept, which does go both ways.... Think about it.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Brilliant! Do you have a link?

Unfortunately not. :greengrin We get sent a security report daily and they usually finish with something silly from the papers to give us a giggle.

[Jay]

I have been really shocked in reading this poll, particularly of the opinions voiced by FalkirkHibbee.

I know both LGB people and straight people. And I firmly agree that marriage and adoption should apply to homosexual couples which meet the criteria. It's a civil right. At the end of the day, it's all about LOVE. And if a guy loves a guy, a woman loves a woman or a woman loves a man/man loves a woman then it shouldn't matter either way... we should all accept, tolerate and respect each others differences.

Btw FH, you're basically in denial. 'I'M NOT HOMOPHOBIC BUT...' You say you're not against homosexuality yet you have major issues with the idea of homosexual marriage and homosexuality amongst other 'issues connected with the homosexual lifestyle'. As a supporter of LGBT rights I would argue that there is not a homosexual 'lifestyle' - not all gay people do certain things a stereotypical way. You're also quite immature in saying that you don't like the idea of homosexual sex - who cares? I'm sure there's plenty heterosexual people out there who partake in acts that are probably more deviant than homosexual sex!

Oh and lastly, well done to certain posters on this thread (especially Hiberni-Mum) for their accurate, intelligent and well respected input. Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

Thanks for the thanks :greengrin

I think what we have to do though is respect each others opinions (not aimed at you Jenna). If FH was openly screaming abuse and beating up homosexuals it would be a different matter but he is entitled to his opinion. As you say you dont like Yams but you also dont go around Yam bashing - its a similar thing.

When I said he was homophobic I certainly didn't mean it as an insult - its a term used for people with his beliefs, unfortunately, as usual, the meaning changes because of (other) peoples behaviour and becomes related to violence and hatred.

I dont think I have the right to scream from the rooftops that his opinions are wrong, only to state my opinions in a debate with him. I actually have more respect for him for standing by what he says even though I disagree with 99% of it.

[--------]

Doesn't happen in Nigeria seemingly, from the paper today:


Nigeria defended its human rights record at the Universal periodic review mechanism of the UN Human Rights Council and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Chief Ojo Madueke, presented an overview of Nigeria's human rights policies and adressed issues on the rights of women, the death penalty and Nigeria's Justice system, the Niger Delta, extra judicial killing and the state of prisons.

During his presentation, Chief Ojo Madueke, said that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs could not include any gay people in consultations on the human rights situation in Nigeria as the Nigerian government has been unable to locate any gay people in Nigeria.

He said that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs located only one lesbian and when she was invited to participate in a discussion on the rights of gay and lesbians, she told the ministry that she was pregnant


If I was a "gay person in Nigeria" I think I'd make sure the Nigerian government couldn't locate me either.

Surely when two people are living together long-term, sharing a home and causing no trouble to their neighbours, it's reasonable to allow them the same civil and legal rights regardless of whether they're man and woman, man and man, or woman and woman?

[Lucius Apuleius]

If I was a "gay person in Nigeria" I think I'd make sure the Nigerian government couldn't locate me either.

Surely when two people are living together long-term, sharing a home and causing no trouble to their neighbours, it's reasonable to allow them the same civil and legal rights regardless of whether they're man and woman, man and man, or woman and woman?

Well they know where "Gay Gordon" is but they have never come looking for me :greengrin

As an aside, there are two openly homosexual guys working for one of our caterers so they do exist.

[ancienthibby]

I think we all gathered that....:greengrin



Interesting that you choose to end your post with these words considering you said earlier on in your post:



Typical of the kind of attitude one is bombarded with when they mention they have opinions which are different to the 'tolerant' view. It's funny how some of the people who claim to be the most tolerant, cannot tolerate an opinion different to their own. This is intolerance. FH and myself have said all along that although we may think its wrong there we do not discriminate against the person, or treat them any different because of it. If you are happy to call people immature, bigotted and small minded for daring to have a different opinion than yourself, then you are intolerant and hypocritical. You said:



You obviously don't expect people to treat you very nicely and with much respect if you are happy to call people like FH and myself bigots and small minded, merely for stating a different opinion to yourself.

Think about it....:rolleyes:



Already dealt with, but I would hope an apology is forthcoming for this uncalled for and undeserved attack on FH's character.



Who says they're not justified? You think they're not justified, but that is only your opinion.



Where has he said he's scared or afraid of homosexuals? In fact where has anyone said that? You can quote the dictionary definition all you like, but the fact is that people have different interpretations of what homophobia is. I must admit I didn't know the dictionary definition before this thread, so I have learnt something from this, I digress though.... I had always understood homophobia to be discrimination against homosexuals purely on the grounds of their sexuality, or attacks on homosexuals purely on the grounds of their sexuality, or a fear of homosexuals purely on the grounds of homosexuality. IMHO, neither FH or myself, or anyone else who has expressed a view that homosexual sex is somehow wrong, or un-natural, has displayed any of these traits.



Its pretty clear what he means, and it has been discussed earlier on in the thread. He has nothing against the people themselves, just the act of homosexual sex. An opinion formed based on his religious beliefs I would assume. As I said earlier in the thread, "Love the sinner, hate the sin."



The way you said:



Came across as condescending towards those of us who had dared to voice a differing opinion, as if our input wasn't accurate, intelligent and well respected. That in itself shows a lack of respect IMHO.



Ah yes, the respect thing again. It is an interesting and hard to grasp concept, which does go both ways.... Think about it.

If any heterosexual male has, like me, undergone a DRE (which I have done twice in the last 12 months) then you'll never, ever understand how this type of thereafter sexually-justified activity can ever be considered natural!!

[JennaFletcher]

Sergio and FH,


You have to understand it's nothing to do with you as a person. It's about your comments on an Internet forum. Do not take it to heart. I'm not one to sit on my ass and be beaten on topics that I feel strongly about - that crap does not fly with me! There are some things I can’t tolerate in life: racism, homophobia, sexism = unprovoked and senseless behaviour.

Sergio sledge and FH – You have constantly said ‘although we think it is wrong we do not discriminate against the person’ – although you do not discriminate the person, you are discriminating against the collective.
And to quote Segio sledge,
‘You obviously don't expect people to treat you very nicely and with much respect if you are happy to call people like FH and myself bigots and small minded, merely for stating a different opinion to yourself.’

People can treat my opinions in whatever shape or form, I wouldn’t be offended if someone came on here for slagging me off for being a liberal but then again I wouldn’t expect it. You can try me if you like. I don’t think I have said anything offensive just for the sake of being offensive; I’m not like that. I’m always very applicable in my comments and I can back up the words I use with my opinions like I have done.

In my opinion, you have to earn respect.
I don’t care if you think I’m unjust, I think your point of view is medieval and I don't like it.

There is nothing wrong with gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered people. They are not any less equal than heterosexuals and should be treated with equal respect.

:bye:

[JennaFletcher]

Thanks for the thanks :greengrin

I think what we have to do though is respect each others opinions (not aimed at you Jenna). If FH was openly screaming abuse and beating up homosexuals it would be a different matter but he is entitled to his opinion. As you say you dont like Yams but you also dont go around Yam bashing - its a similar thing.

When I said he was homophobic I certainly didn't mean it as an insult - its a term used for people with his beliefs, unfortunately, as usual, the meaning changes because of (other) peoples behaviour and becomes related to violence and hatred.

I dont think I have the right to scream from the rooftops that his opinions are wrong, only to state my opinions in a debate with him. I actually have more respect for him for standing by what he says even though I disagree with 99% of it.

You claimed none of that was aimed at me, but I'm going to treat it as if it were for arguments sake.

I did not call him a homophobe just to insult him, I called him one because his state of mind and comments suggest he is.

I have not been screaming off the rooftops over this, trust me, not my style - I'd rather just continue to support the LGBT community and the friends I have which belong to such a community. After all, society (thanks to the likes of FH/Sergio thought) has pigeon holed it into a community.

It makes no sense to stand by FH, when you disagree with 99% of what he says.

I'm not trying to get a rise out of him or try to alter his opinion, I'm just giving my opinion and it's healthy to hear all sides of the debate so that people can reach justified conclusions.

At the end of the day, the poll is about gay marriage and such... and I believe that homosexuals as human beings, with hearts and y'know actual feelings should be entitled to marry whomever they want without ridicule.

[Jay]

You claimed none of that was aimed at me, but I'm going to treat it as if it were for arguments sake.

I did not call him a homophobe just to insult him, I called him one because his state of mind and comments suggest he is.

I have not been screaming off the rooftops over this, trust me, not my style - I'd rather just continue to support the LGBT community and the friends I have which belong to such a community. After all, society (thanks to the likes of FH/Sergio thought) has pigeon holed it into a community.

It makes no sense to stand by FH, when you disagree with 99% of what he says.

I'm not trying to get a rise out of him or try to alter his opinion, I'm just giving my opinion and it's healthy to hear all sides of the debate so that people can reach justified conclusions.

At the end of the day, the poll is about gay marriage and such... and I believe that homosexuals as human beings, with hearts and y'know actual feelings should be entitled to marry whomever they want without ridicule.


Woah there - just a minute! First of all when I said it was not aimed at you I cant understand at what point you decided to turn it into something aimed at you?

At no point did I say anyone called him homophobic to insult him, in fact if you read my post again it actually explains the fact that I didn't say it as an insult - nothing to do with you at all!

Again when I said I feel I have no right to go screaming off the rooftops at no point did I claim you did I was merely pointing out peoples rights the way I see them - again no mention of you!

As for standing by him - take the time to actually read my post - I said that I respect him for standing by his beliefs not that I stand by him. I do disagree with 99% of what he says but as long as he doesn't turn violent towards or become abusive towards homosexuals whats wrong with him stating his opinion?? There are a hell of a lot of people I dont like in this country but I wouldn't abuse them, they just dont fall into a 'category'.

Again where did I say you were trying to get a rise out of anybody?? I think I actually never mentioned you in my post other than to thank you for the thanks.

Your last paragraph I agree with.

Time to get of your high horse methinks. :agree:

FH sorry for talking about 'you' in this way.

[Woody1985]

:faf: JennaFletcher

I think you need to chill, once you've read a post, re-read it before posting. Maybe even 3 times.

:faf: JennaFletcher

I think you need to chill, once you've read a post, re-read it before posting. Maybe even 3 times.

:faf: JennaFletcher

I think you need to chill, once you've read a post, re-read it before posting. Maybe even 3 times.

That was to make sure :wink: Only joking :greengrin

[GlesgaeHibby]

Most people that adopt a stance against homosexual activity do so based on ancient history books(ie religion). I still find it interesting that they can agree with the viewpoint that homosexual activity is wrong, but don't go out and stone them as the Bible says.

Live and let live, we've only got one shot at this life so whats the point in holding grudges against certain groups?

[Woody1985]

Most people that adopt a stance against homosexual activity do so based on ancient history books(ie religion). I still find it interesting that they can agree with the viewpoint that homosexual activity is wrong, but don't go out and stone them as the Bible says.

Live and let live, we've only got one shot at this life so whats the point in holding grudges against certain groups?

:wtf:

You can think that something is wrong without wanting to kill/stone them. :faf:

IMO, I think it has already been said above by others, I don't agree with homosexual activity but wouldn't discriminate against someone or treat them differently from anyone else. Each to their own.

FWIW I have no religion and think that nature dictates where things go. Before the poop shute issue is raised again, as a straight guy I prefer not to as it feels a bit 'gay'. :duck:

[Greentinted]

My take on it for what it may be worth:

I am always astounded at the disproportionate interest shown in peoples sexual persuasion. Ones sexuality is merely a facet of that person as a whole and surely isnt the defining factor.

I was, like many a teenage/young man, very much homophobic back in the day, mainly due to my ignorance and sociataly inherited fear. The way the word 'poof' was used in a pejorative way, the assumption that all gay men 'fancied' me (which really was a stretch seing as most women didnt - does that make them gay???), the words which were attributed to homosexuality in general (queer, bent, etc - all terms which imply 'abnormal') and other fallacies based on stupidity and lack of knowledge - not least of all AIDS which was dubbed 'the gay plague'.
My homophobic attitude changed when, in my late teens, I worked alongside a gay bloke who, much to my surprise, was simply just another gadge.

Whatever way people choose to conduct themselves in the bedroom (or kitchen, backgreen, top of Arthurs Seat, etc) is surely up to them; gay, straight, bisexual, or whatever. If they are consenting adults and enjoying themselves, then good for them and surely in this day and age its not up for anybody else's judgement.
One thing that has surprised me on this thread is the attitude of many (but not all) of the younger guys. I thought it was us older folk that were reactionary, un-PC bigots...or is that my prejudices panderring to stereotypes???:wink:

[JennaFletcher]

Your last paragraph I agree with.

Time to get of your high horse methinks. :agree:

FH sorry for talking about 'you' in this way.

The last paragraph is basically the point of all my posts, I'm just fed up of people being like 'I'm not homophobic but I dislike the group, not individuals' and such so this has what has generated the major confrontation between me and your man FH. It's not that he is a violent homophobic radge, but I disagree with his/other peoples idea that they claim not to be homophobic while they dislike the idea of homosexuality as a whole. WTF is that all about!

High horse??? :violin::hmmm::bye:

:fuming::take that:shocked::tsk tsk::tsk tsk:

Lol, let's just go back to the innocence of this thread when it was all about gay marriage! Would make things a lot simpler.

[JennaFletcher]

My take on it for what it may be worth:

I am always astounded at the disproportionate interest shown in peoples sexual persuasion. Ones sexuality is merely a facet of that person as a whole and surely isnt the defining factor.

I was, like many a teenage/young man, very much homophobic back in the day, mainly due to my ignorance and sociataly inherited fear. The way the word 'poof' was used in a pejorative way, the assumption that all gay men 'fancied' me (which really was a stretch seing as most women didnt - does that make them gay???), the words which were attributed to homosexuality in general (queer, bent, etc - all terms which imply 'abnormal') and other fallacies based on stupidity and lack of knowledge - not least of all AIDS which was dubbed 'the gay plague'.
My homophobic attitude changed when, in my late teens, I worked alongside a gay bloke who, much to my surprise, was simply just another gadge.

Whatever way people choose to conduct themselves in the bedroom (or kitchen, backgreen, top of Arthurs Seat, etc) is surely up to them; gay, straight, bisexual, or whatever. If they are consenting adults and enjoying themselves, then good for them and surely in this day and age its not up for anybody else's judgement.
One thing that has surprised me on this thread is the attitude of many (but not all) of the younger guys. I thought it was us older folk that were reactionary, un-PC bigots...or is that my prejudices panderring to stereotypes???:wink:

:top marks You've managed to say what I wanted to say without hacking off individual members of this board. Congrats.

[JennaFletcher]

P.S Sorry to FH, SS, and Hiberni-mum if I've offended you in any way shape or form = not intentional!

[Jay]

The last paragraph is basically the point of all my posts, I'm just fed up of people being like 'I'm not homophobic but I dislike the group, not individuals' and such so this has what has generated the major confrontation between me and your man FH. It's not that he is a violent homophobic radge, but I disagree with his/other peoples idea that they claim not to be homophobic while they dislike the idea of homosexuality as a whole. WTF is that all about!

High horse??? :violin::hmmm::bye:

:fuming::take that:shocked::tsk tsk::tsk tsk:

Lol, let's just go back to the innocence of this thread when it was all about gay marriage! Would make things a lot simpler.


FH is not my man - in fact he comes across as very much his own man (certainly not any others mans man :wink:)

I think we all get that you disagree with him :agree:

Why get into a major confrontation about it? The louder you shout the less people hear.

[JennaFletcher]

FH is not my man - in fact he comes across as very much his own man (certainly not any others mans man :wink:)

I think we all get that you disagree with him :agree:

Why get into a major confrontation about it? The louder you shout the less people hear.

I have odd lingo/slang, and I meant man in a friendly way :wink: I was going to say your boy, but he might have taken that as an offensive remark!!!

Oh dearie me, this thread is getting on my nerves :dizzy:

[Jay]

I have odd lingo/slang, and I meant man in a friendly way :wink: I was going to say your boy, but he might have taken that as an offensive remark!!!

Oh dearie me, this thread is getting on my nerves :dizzy:

Chill out it was joke, hence the :wink: smilie


:foot:

[LiverpoolHibs]

My take on it for what it may be worth:

I am always astounded at the disproportionate interest shown in peoples sexual persuasion. Ones sexuality is merely a facet of that person as a whole and surely isnt the defining factor.

I was, like many a teenage/young man, very much homophobic back in the day, mainly due to my ignorance and sociataly inherited fear. The way the word 'poof' was used in a pejorative way, the assumption that all gay men 'fancied' me (which really was a stretch seing as most women didnt - does that make them gay???), the words which were attributed to homosexuality in general (queer, bent, etc - all terms which imply 'abnormal') and other fallacies based on stupidity and lack of knowledge - not least of all AIDS which was dubbed 'the gay plague'.
My homophobic attitude changed when, in my late teens, I worked alongside a gay bloke who, much to my surprise, was simply just another gadge.

Whatever way people choose to conduct themselves in the bedroom (or kitchen, backgreen, top of Arthurs Seat, etc) is surely up to them; gay, straight, bisexual, or whatever. If they are consenting adults and enjoying themselves, then good for them and surely in this day and age its not up for anybody else's judgement.
One thing that has surprised me on this thread is the attitude of many (but not all) of the younger guys. I thought it was us older folk that were reactionary, un-PC bigots...or is that my prejudices panderring to stereotypes???:wink:

**** know's why this wasn't the beginning and end of the thread!

[JennaFletcher]

:paranoid::bsod::sofa:

[Jay]

:paranoid::bsod::sofa:

:faf: and we are even on the same side (sort of) :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

As you might not have recognised in my previous post I am very pro LGBT rights, hence my obvious wholeheartedness and honesty on the subject.

If I'm entitled to my righteous opinion as you point out, I am within my right to deem you immature - this is because I find it baffling how you claim to be 'against homosexual sex' - Whatever people get up to is none of mine nor your business and you should be able to respect the fact that not everyone is like yourself. Furthermore, it is immature in my mind that people are against same sex marriage purely for the fact that love is a basic human instinct which people cannot fight. Also, people should be entitled to marry whomever they love. It's not like it jeopardises heterosexual marriage in any way shape or form.

You may be fairly mature in other aspects of opinion, but in the twenty first century I find it quite disgusting that people can still be so bigoted and small minded.

The point is, you can have strong views but your views aren't justified other than it's a case of something you don't like and don't agree with. I don't agree with the fact that Hearts fans surround me in Edinburgh, but I don't dislike their way of life.

'I also don't see how i'm in denial. I personally don't think i'm homophobic, because my definition of homophobia is when people go out of their way to harrass a homosexual person or deny them a job if you're an employer and other similar acts. I would never dream of doing either of those things.' - So basically - homophobia is only homophobia when it is violent or abusive?? It can only occur in discrimination related to work?? Homophobia (from Greek homós: one and the same; phóbos: fear, phobia) is an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. Therefore you can be judged as homophobic as you have an irrational dislike to the though of gay people together, in marriage and/or sex - as you have displayed.

It's not that I have a different view to homophobia or what constitutes it, it's a fact that homophobia is an irrational fear of homosexuals, which judging by your posts - you seem to possess quite a bit.

'With regards to the bit where you say "You say you're not against homosexuality", what I actually said was that I wasn't against homosexuals as individual people.' - What does this mean? You're against homosexuals as a collective??! Your against homosexuality full stop.

'Finally you congratulate other people for their "accurate, intelligent and well respected input".' - this is because I feel they are sincere and have good argument on the topic.

'An opinion, which is what we've all displayed here, cannot be more (or less) accurate than any other.' - it's not an opinion, it's about treating people with the same respect that you'd expect in return.

'I would also like to think that most people, whether they agree or disagree with me, would respect my views.' - I accept you have differing views but I certainly don't respect them. I respect them in the sense that we're all different and have different opinions on things, but I don't respect them because I believe they are somewhat cold, crude and unnecessary.

:agree: Just my opinion.

And do not feel that I am talking purely about yourself, it's homophobia as a whole.

Let's just agree to disagree on this.

There's plenty in that post that I would like to respond to but I won't, as it will totally throw the thread in a completely different direction.

You obviously have some strongly held beliefs and opinions on this subject, that I disagree with but I totally respect. I also have some strongly held beliefs and opinions on this subject. It's unfortunate that you feel unable to respect an opposing point of view but there's not much I can do about that.

Thanks for the debate.

[Sergio sledge]

P.S Sorry to FH, SS, and Hiberni-mum if I've offended you in any way shape or form = not intentional!

Thanks for the apology, and I apologize to you for getting annoyed with you. I appreciate this is an emotive subject. Just a wee tip for you though, if it's not your intention to offend people, it might help if you tried not to call them immature bigots with no provocation:wink:

One other wee point, you think we are saying that we have nothing against individuals, but the group as a whole. That's not what I'm saying, although I can't speak for FH. I have nothing against homosexuals as people at all, as individuals or as a group. I do not think the act of homosexual sex is natural however. FWIW what people choose to do is up to them, straight or gay, and I'm certainly not on any sort of crusade against homosexual sex. If someone asks my opinion on it, or if someone I know comes out I'll be honest and tell them how I feel, but I'm not in the business of telling people how to live their life or insisting they do certain things.

These are my thoughts, and I would hope that 'tolerant' society could tolerate them.

Anyway, thanks again for the apology:thumbsup:

[JennaFletcher]

:faf: and we are even on the same side (sort of) :greengrin

What are the chances of me being the victim of a hit and run operation now that I've posted on this thread? I'd say it's enhanced my chances by about 25% :greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

I do wonder why people are in quite such a rush to announce their respect for other people's beliefs - however intolerant and irrational they are.

I'm confused as to what that even really means...

[Jay]

I do wonder why people are in quite such a rush to announce their respect for other people's beliefs - however intolerant and irrational they are.

I'm confused as to what that even really means...

What does that mean? :confused:

If thats because I said that I respect FH for standing by his beliefs - why not? He has the right to think what he wants. Who am I to say he cant think that?? I dont agree with a lot of things but I do respect peoples right to their own faith/beliefs etc as long as they stay within the law. I also expect people to return the same respect to things I think.

If that not what you are getting at then I am at a loss.........

[Betty Boop]

I do wonder why people are in quite such a rush to announce their respect for other people's beliefs - however intolerant and irrational they are.
I'm confused as to what that even really means... :agree:

[LiverpoolHibs]

What does that mean? :confused:

If thats because I said that I respect FH for standing by his beliefs - why not? He has the right to think what he wants. Who am I to say he cant think that?? I dont agree with a lot of things but I do respect peoples right to their own faith/beliefs etc as long as they stay within the law. I also expect people to return the same respect to things I think.

If that not what you are getting at then I am at a loss.........

Not just you, everyone seems to be doing it! Veritably hurling themselves at their keyboard in order to announce their respect for other's beliefs. As I say, I'm not really sure what people actually mean by it.

There's a huge difference between someone having the right to think what they want and actually 'respecting' that belief. It just seems a slightly token, pointless gesture.

[JennaFletcher]

Not just you, everyone seems to be doing it! Veritably hurling themselves at their keyboard in order to announce their respect for other's beliefs. As I say, I'm not really sure what people actually mean by it.

There's a huge difference between someone having the right to think what they want and actually 'respecting' that belief. It just seems a slightly token, pointless gesture.

Do you study philosophy? If not then you should. There's a really good book called 'This Is Not A Book' which I think you'd find interesting.
:agree: (I'm not being funny or sarcastic here, being sincere!)

[Jay]

Not just you, everyone seems to be doing it! Veritably hurling themselves at their keyboard in order to announce their respect for other's beliefs. As I say, I'm not really sure what people actually mean by it.

There's a huge difference between someone having the right to think what they want and actually 'respecting' that belief (as long as they stay within the confines of the law).

:cool2: God this is getting difficult :greengrin

(lets assume its within the confines of the law at all times to save hassle)

I respect peoples right to believe what they want, I dont think I have the right to tell someone they are not allowed to think certain things. I dont respect their actual belief if I dont agree with it - I respect their right to think it :dizzy:

This is getting very complicated so I am bowing out.

[LiverpoolHibs]

:cool2: God this is getting difficult :greengrin

(lets assume its within the confines of the law at all times to save hassle)

I respect peoples right to believe what they want, I dont think I have the right to tell someone they are not allowed to think certain things. I dont respect their actual belief if I dont agree with it - I respect their right to think it :dizzy:

This is getting very complicated so I am bowing out.

It was just a little side observation so don't bow out on my account.

And damn you for getting me pre-edit. :greengrin

[Jay]

It was just a little side observation so don't bow out on my account.

And damn you for getting me pre-edit. :greengrin

Nah I am bowing out because I can now touch type 'respect', 'belief' and 'right'.

Time to move on to a new thread.:greengrin

Actually I think if I keep going I will forget what I actually think due to all my respect :wink:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Do you study philosophy? If not then you should. There's a really good book called 'This Is Not A Book' which I think you'd find interesting.
:agree: (I'm not being funny or sarcastic here, being sincere!)

No, I don't. Who's it by?

[Storar]

"Love the sinner, hate the sin."





I've read through tonnes of posts on this matter and for me, despite all the huge, long winded posts, this completely sums it up in the best possible way:agree:

[LiverpoolHibs]

I've read through tonnes of posts on this matter and for me, despite all the huge, long winded posts, this completely sums it up in the best possible way:agree:

Are you a Christian, Storar?

[Storar]

Are you a Christian, Storar?

Not a practicing Christian, no. May I ask why?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Not a practicing Christian, no. May I ask why?

Believe in a Christian God then?

[Storar]

Believe in a Christian God then?

My views on God are for a whole different thread. May I ask why?

[LiverpoolHibs]

My views on God are for a whole different thread. May I ask why?

Well, not really - it's pretty well connected if you're agreeing with the quote above. Where is your concept of 'sin' derived from, would perhaps be the more pertinent question, however.

[Storar]

Well, not really - it's pretty well connected if you're agreeing with the quote above. Where is your concept of 'sin' derived from, would perhaps be the more pertinent question, however.

OK I get you. It's not meant in a literal sense you have to understand (I don't think homosexuality is a 'sin') I think the phrase is a perfect representation of what SS and FH have been trying to say.

[JennaFletcher]

No, I don't. Who's it by?

I'll PM you.