Abortion

[Sir David Gray]

Should women be allowed to abort a pregnancy?

[GlesgaeHibby]

Abortion is being used as a contraceptive these days and I find it disgusting. It shouldn't be so readily available.

[Sergio sledge]

Abortion is being used as a contraceptive these days and I find it disgusting. It shouldn't be so readily available.

:agree: IMHO should only be used in cases of rape and if the pregnancy threatens the mother.

If people don't want to have a baby they should be more careful and not get into the situation in the first place. There are enough options and enough education out there for no-one to have any excuses nowadays. If someone wants to be irresponsible, then they can deal with the consequences.

[babydollxxx]

Abortion is being used as a contraceptive these days and I find it disgusting. It shouldn't be so readily available.

Source?

[Speedy]

:agree: IMHO should only be used in cases of rape and if the pregnancy threatens the mother.

If people don't want to have a baby they should be more careful and not get into the situation in the first place. There are enough options and enough education out there for no-one to have any excuses nowadays. If someone wants to be irresponsible, then they can deal with the consequences.

Bit harsh on the child is it not?

[Jay]

:agree: IMHO should only be used in cases of rape and if the pregnancy threatens the mother.

If people don't want to have a baby they should be more careful and not get into the situation in the first place. There are enough options and enough education out there for no-one to have any excuses nowadays. If someone wants to be irresponsible, then they can deal with the consequences.

Such a difficult subject and I agree with your points on a personal level but there are cases where abortion is the best option. I never ever thought I would say that but there is.

If it is being used as contraception, which I dont believe, then we need to get these girls and educate them better - ensure they have a 5 year implant or something similar.

If it becomes too difficult or even illegal we will go back to women/girls in back rooms paying someone to do it and facing all the medical consequences.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Source?

Hospital wards that have to give out the emergency morning after pills because a lassie can't be bothered taking her pill or the boy doesn't get his condom on. It's the same folk over and over - just lazy and irresponsible.

[Speedy]

Hospital wards that have to give out the emergency morning after pills because a lassie can't be bothered taking her pill or the boy doesn't get his condom on. It's the same folk over and over - just lazy and irresponsible.

Surely that's not really abortion because you don't even know anything if she's pregnant

[GlesgaeHibby]

Source?

Silly irresponsible girls getting themselves pregnant without knowing it, all because they forgot to take their pill or told their partner to wear a condom.

I can hear what people are saying with the opinion that these people who get pregnant by accident aren't fit to look after a kid, but to abort it because of irresponsibility is sick.

[Sylar]

:agree: IMHO should only be used in cases of rape and if the pregnancy threatens the mother.

If people don't want to have a baby they should be more careful and not get into the situation in the first place. There are enough options and enough education out there for no-one to have any excuses nowadays. If someone wants to be irresponsible, then they can deal with the consequences.

Not all contraceptive is full-proof and accidents do happen - happened to a very close friend of mine who is one of the most level headed guys you're liable to meet!

I agree with the general concensus though that it should be assessed on a case-specific basis and not so readily available!

[Sir David Gray]

If, by giving birth, the life of the mother would be threatened or if the pregnancy comes about through rape then I completely back anyone's right to have an abortion.

However, in pretty much all other cases, if you have full sexual intercourse (even with contraception), then you have to accept that it's likely/highly likely that a pregnancy will be the result.

The only full proof way to avoid getting pregnant, is to avoid full intercourse. It's really not difficult.

People need to take more responsibility for their actions. Sex is something that should be enjoyed, but is not something that should be done lightly. The only time it should be performed is within a stable relationship.

I also don't support abortion being an option for people who find out their child will be born with a disability. If you feel you cannot cope with a disabled child, I believe it should be put up for adoption.

[Jay]

If, by giving birth, the life of the mother would be threatened or if the pregnancy comes about through rape then I completely back anyone's right to have an abortion.

However, in pretty much all other cases, if you have full sexual intercourse (even with contraception), then you have to accept that it's likely/highly likely that a pregnancy will be the result.

The only full proof way to avoid getting pregnant, is to avoid full intercourse. It's really not difficult.

People need to take more responsibility for their actions. Sex is something that should be enjoyed, but is not something that should be done lightly. The only time it should be performed is within a stable relationship.

I also don't support abortion being an option for people who find out their child will be born with a disability. If you feel you cannot cope with a disabled child, I believe it should be put up for adoption.


There are times even in a stable relationship where abortion is an option. When I was in the hospital having my second a distraught couple were put in the cubicle bit at the side of me. They were crying for hours before a doctor came to see them. She was pregnant and they were waiting to find out how far on she was and if abortion was an option. She had been sterelised five months previously as they had 4 kids already and lived in a small council flat. He had lost his job and they were struggling as it was. They were devestated to find out she was expecting and it was killing them even to think of an abortion but they said they had to think of their other kids. I never found out what happened in the end as she was moved out of our ward (thankfully for her - how hard must that have been!)

horrendous situation but a very real one. Of course the virtuous would say they should have had the baby but those of us in the real world have a bit of sympathy.

Its not the only case I can mention - it happens :agree:

[AllyF]

If, by giving birth, the life of the mother would be threatened or if the pregnancy comes about through rape then I completely back anyone's right to have an abortion.

However, in pretty much all other cases, if you have full sexual intercourse (even with contraception), then you have to accept that it's likely/highly likely that a pregnancy will be the result.

Sums it up for me. Spot on. :agree:

[MrRobot]

If, by giving birth, the life of the mother would be threatened or if the pregnancy comes about through rape then I completely back anyone's right to have an abortion.

However, in pretty much all other cases, if you have full sexual intercourse (even with contraception), then you have to accept that it's likely/highly likely that a pregnancy will be the result.

The only full proof way to avoid getting pregnant, is to avoid full intercourse. It's really not difficult.

People need to take more responsibility for their actions. Sex is something that should be enjoyed, but is not something that should be done lightly. The only time it should be performed is within a stable relationship.

I also don't support abortion being an option for people who find out their child will be born with a disability. If you feel you cannot cope with a disabled child, I believe it should be put up for adoption.


That's what raincoats are for.

[Sir David Gray]

There are times even in a stable relationship where abortion is an option. When I was in the hospital having my second a distraught couple were put in the cubicle bit at the side of me. They were crying for hours before a doctor came to see them. She was pregnant and they were waiting to find out how far on she was and if abortion was an option. She had been sterelised five months previously as they had 4 kids already and lived in a small council flat. He had lost his job and they were struggling as it was. They were devestated to find out she was expecting and it was killing them even to think of an abortion but they said they had to think of their other kids. I never found out what happened in the end as she was moved out of our ward (thankfully for her - how hard must that have been!)

horrendous situation but a very real one. Of course the virtuous would say they should have had the baby but those of us in the real world have a bit of sympathy.

Its not the only case I can mention - it happens :agree:

I know there are exceptional cases, but I think there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

I think there are far too many people having casual sex after heavy drinking sessions on a night out and knowing that there's not really any consequences for their actions, because if they get pregnant, they know they can have an abortion.

I have real sympathy for the people that you describe and it's people like that, that would make my decision very difficult.

However, I would still say that the guidelines should always be, only have full sexual intercourse, if you're fully prepared for the possibility that a child may be the end result.

That's possibly a bit too idealistic but that's roughly where I stand.

[Hibrandenburg]

I really didn't want to get involed in this thread but my views have been changed dramatically on this subject recently. I was always an advocate of free choice for expectant mothers and each case should be judged individually.

My first born was born 12 weeks early 2 weeks ago, that's the 28th week of pregnancy for those who are unsure. Now bearing in mind that abortion is legal up until the 24th week and taking into consideration my wee one who is in all respects a healthy living human who has already characteristics that make him different from other individuals and only needs to gain weight and breathe on his own, the thought of extinguishing that life makes me nauseous.

Again however, each case needs to be considered individually.

[LeithWalkHibby]

if you have full sexual intercourse (even with contraception), then you have to accept that it's likely/highly likely that a pregnancy will be the result.


Er, no, completely wrong. If you full sexual intercourse AND practise most regular forms of contraception PROPERLY- you HAVE TO ACCEPT that it's UNLIKELY/HIGHLY UNLIKELY that a pregnancy will be the result.

[LeithWalkHibby]

Sex is something that should be enjoyed...

You sound unconvinced?


The only time it should be performed is within a stable relationship.

Wow, being a teenager in Falkirk sounds like a riot. If it were correct that 'the only time sex should be performed is within a stable relationship' most married couples would never get a sh*g...

[Sir David Gray]

Er, no, completely wrong. If you full sexual intercourse AND practise most regular forms of contraception PROPERLY- you HAVE TO ACCEPT that it's UNLIKELY/HIGHLY UNLIKELY that a pregnancy will be the result.

All I meant by that was, even if you use contraception, there is still a fair chance of a pregnancy as no contraceptive is 100% effective. The ONLY way to be absolutely sure that you won't have an unwanted pregnancy, is to abstain from full sexual intercourse.

[Jay]

I know there are exceptional cases, but I think there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

I think there are far too many people having casual sex after heavy drinking sessions on a night out and knowing that there's not really any consequences for their actions, because if they get pregnant, they know they can have an abortion.

I have real sympathy for the people that you describe and it's people like that, that would make my decision very difficult.

However, I would still say that the guidelines should always be, only have full sexual intercourse, if you're fully prepared for the possibility that a child may be the end result.

That's possibly a bit too idealistic but that's roughly where I stand.

I am by no means an expert but having been a young girl at one point in my life and also having a teenage neice I like to think I have a bit of an insight and I would be very very surprised if any girl had sex thinking that if she got pregnant she could just have an abortion. Its a very traumatic thing for anybody to go through.


I really didn't want to get involed in this thread but my views have been changed dramatically on this subject recently. I was always an advocate of free choice for expectant mothers and each case should be judged individually.

My first born was born 12 weeks early 2 weeks ago, that's the 28th week of pregnancy for those who are unsure. Now bearing in mind that abortion is legal up until the 24th week and taking into consideration my wee one who is in all respects a healthy living human who has already characteristics that make him different from other individuals and only needs to gain weight and breathe on his own, the thought of extinguishing that life makes me nauseous.

Again however, each case needs to be considered individually.


I am all for lowering the stage in a pregnancy where it can be terminated. Most women can find out within days of conception that she is pregnant so why wait 5 months to terminate it? There are the cases of test reults not coming back until late and the baby has something wrong with it I know but in a general termination the dates should be lowered in my opinion.

[Ally]

All I meant by that was, even if you use contraception, there is still a fair chance of a pregnancy as no contraceptive is 100% effective. The ONLY way to be absolutely sure that you won't have an unwanted pregnancy, is to abstain from full sexual intercourse.

Female implants have more than a 99.9% success rate.

[Jay]

Female implants have more than a 99.9% success rate.

Not all women can use the implant. A friend of mine had to get hers removed after a week as it was causing a terrible itch and swelling where it was. A lot of women cant have hormonal contraception for various reasons. I think that an implant should be the first course of action for a young girl but it is not always the answer. It also doesn't protect against disease.

I dont think abstinence will ever be the answer though, not many will agree to it. Education and free condoms and the morning after pill is about all we can do. Making abortion too difficult and unaccessible is not a wise move in my opinion.

[GlesgaeHibby]

All I meant by that was, even if you use contraception, there is still a fair chance of a pregnancy as no contraceptive is 100% effective. The ONLY way to be absolutely sure that you won't have an unwanted pregnancy, is to abstain from full sexual intercourse.

Stats really isn't your strong point is it? Condoms are 98% effective, therefore you have a 2% chance of failure, and even after that the chance of the sperm fertilising is small. I wouldn't call that a fair chance. Even if you have an accident where the condom breaks you can get emergency contraception the next day.

I think you're being a bit naive expecting people, even in a stable relationship to abstain from sexual relations.

[lyonhibs]

Stats really isn't your strong point is it? Condoms are 98% effective, therefore you have a 2% chance of failure, and even after that the chance of the sperm fertilising is small. I wouldn't call that a fair chance. Even if you have an accident where the condom breaks you can get emergency contraception the next day.

I think you're being a bit naive expecting people, even in a stable relationship to abstain from sexual relations.

:agree: :agree: End of the day if 2 consenting adults have unprotected sex then they HAVE to deal with the consequences, whether that be hopping out of bed pronto the next morning for the aforementioned emergency contraception, or facing and accepting the chance that the girl may be pregnant. No-one over the age of 10 (probably younger these days) is daft enough to think that babies come from storks, and in the above circumstances, aborting a baby is - IMO - murder. There are adoption agencies, childrens care homes (although, god knows they don't always get a shining write-up) etc who can give the child a "as good as possible" start to life if the mother + father really aren't mentally prepared to bring up a child after birth.

Obviously cases of rape or when the mother's life is in pretty mortal danger are excepted from the above statement.

[MrRobot]

By the sounds of it, some people think you should never have sex if you don't want a kid ?

[Sir David Gray]

I am by no means an expert but having been a young girl at one point in my life and also having a teenage neice I like to think I have a bit of an insight and I would be very very surprised if any girl had sex thinking that if she got pregnant she could just have an abortion. Its a very traumatic thing for anybody to go through.

I understand that an abortion is not something you get quite the thing.

All I was trying to get at was, I believe there are far too many people having sex (often unprotected) after getting bladdered on a night out, with people they don't know and the end result is an unwanted pregnancy. Perhaps if people knew that abortions weren't going to be easy to get, they would think a bit more about the consequences of their actions.

This story was from 2006, but figures reveal that there were 341 abortions carried out on girls under the age of 16, in Scotland, in 2005. That number rose to more than 3300 for those under 20 and in total, there were more than 12,600 abortions carried out in Scotland, in 2005.

http://news.scotsman.com/abortion/Fears-over-sex-education-as.2778209.jp


Stats really isn't your strong point is it? Condoms are 98% effective, therefore you have a 2% chance of failure, and even after that the chance of the sperm fertilising is small. I wouldn't call that a fair chance. Even if you have an accident where the condom breaks you can get emergency contraception the next day.

I think you're being a bit naive expecting people, even in a stable relationship to abstain from sexual relations.

I am aware of the stats, perhaps my "fair chance" quote was a bit OTT. I'm not expecting people in a stable relationship to abstain from sex, i've already said that sex should be enjoyed. However, if you have full sexual intercourse, you should accept the possibility (even if it is remote) that a pregnancy could be the result.

If the condom does split, I've got no problem with people getting emergency contraception. That's only being responsible.

I just think that abortions are too readily available and they do nothing to solve the very serious issue that we have in this country of irresponsible alcohol-fuelled sexual relations.


By the sounds of it, some people think you should never have sex if you don't want a kid ?

It would certainly solve the problem of abortions but i'm not stupid enough to think that it's a practical solution. For those that don't want a child, I think that the guidelines should be; always use contraception during sexual intercourse but if that should fail, use emergency contraception the next day.

[MrRobot]

I understand that an abortion is not something you get quite the thing.

All I was trying to get at was, I believe there are far too many people having sex (often unprotected) after getting bladdered on a night out, with people they don't know and the end result is an unwanted pregnancy. Perhaps if people knew that abortions weren't going to be easy to get, they would think a bit more about the consequences of their actions.

This story was from 2006, but figures reveal that there were 341 abortions carried out on girls under the age of 16, in Scotland, in 2005. That number rose to more than 3300 for those under 20 and in total, there were more than 12,600 abortions carried out in Scotland, in 2005.

http://news.scotsman.com/abortion/Fears-over-sex-education-as.2778209.jp



I am aware of the stats, perhaps my "fair chance" quote was a bit OTT. I'm not expecting people in a stable relationship to abstain from sex, i've already said that sex should be enjoyed. However, if you have full sexual intercourse, you should accept the possibility (even if it is remote) that a pregnancy could be the result.

If the condom does split, I've got no problem with people getting emergency contraception. That's only being responsible.

I just think that abortions are too readily available and they do nothing to solve the very serious issue that we have in this country of irresponsible alcohol-fuelled sexual relations.



It would certainly solve the problem of abortions but i'm not stupid enough to think that it's a practical solution. For those that don't want a child, I think that the guidelines should be; always use contraception during sexual intercourse but if that should fail, use emergency contraception the next day.


If that also fails ?

[Sir David Gray]

If that also fails ?

I think the number of couples falling foul to two types of contraception would apply to a very small minority of people, so I would be happy to say that in those cases, the pregnancy should go ahead and if they are determined not have the child, it should be put up for adoption.

[Andy74]

If, by giving birth, the life of the mother would be threatened or if the pregnancy comes about through rape then I completely back anyone's right to have an abortion.

However, in pretty much all other cases, if you have full sexual intercourse (even with contraception), then you have to accept that it's likely/highly likely that a pregnancy will be the result.

The only full proof way to avoid getting pregnant, is to avoid full intercourse. It's really not difficult.

People need to take more responsibility for their actions. Sex is something that should be enjoyed, but is not something that should be done lightly. The only time it should be performed is within a stable relationship.

I also don't support abortion being an option for people who find out their child will be born with a disability. If you feel you cannot cope with a disabled child, I believe it should be put up for adoption.


If it's a life of the child matter than even the conditions of harm to the mother and rape shouldn't come into it.

Essentially what you are saying is that you want to punish iresponsibility by making them have a child. The quality of life for the child under those circumstances would surely be questionable.

If a moman becomes pregnant by being raped you are saying then that the life of the child doesn't matter and the reason is that the woman did not choose it. This just shows that in other cases the child is being used as a punishment.

If the mother is to come to harm then who is to judge who is the more worthy of the life?

Things happen, mistakes happen and if the girl or couple judge that what is best for all is an early termination then they should be allowed that choice.

Once you start putting any conditions on it makes it a stance based on judging an punishing people and not purely on the one ideal that says every potential life should be allowed to be lived.

[Andy74]

I think the number of couples falling foul to two types of contraception would apply to a very small minority of people, so I would be happy to say that in those cases, the pregnancy should go ahead and if they are determined not have the child, it should be put up for adoption.

You'd be happy to say. Nice.

Great, never mind the quality of life for the family and child, thay had sex so consequences must be paid.

It's a blooming painful decision to make and it should not be made by people like you on their behalf.

[Frazerbob]

I would make abortion compulsory in some cases. Too many nonentities happy to sit on their erse being supported by the state (that's you and I) as it is. If you can't support a child or give it a decent chance in life you shouldnt be allowed to have one.

That should put the cat amongst the pigeons!! :wink:

[Jay]

Falkirk can you even begin to imagine how difficult it would be for a young girl to go through a pregnancy and then give up the child for adoption? Psycologically it wold be horrendous, socially its a huge thing to face, physically demanding etc. She would have to take maternity leave if she worked, what if she had other kids? What would she tell them?

Its not as simple as saying just give it up for adoption, I know that the other option of aborting isn't easy either but I really think you are being too simplistic in your views.

[Woody1985]

Falkirk can you even begin to imagine how difficult it would be for a young girl to go through a pregnancy and then give up the child for adoption? Psycologically it wold be horrendous, socially its a huge thing to face, physically demanding etc. She would have to take maternity leave if she worked, what if she had other kids? What would she tell them?

Its not as simple as saying just give it up for adoption, I know that the other option of aborting isn't easy either but I really think you are being too simplistic in your views.

:top marks

Throw in family & friends opinions of giving up a kid. Could lead to breakdown of relationships with people when they would be needed most. Bare in mind that people are very judgemental.

Doh, just seen you've put it would be a social issue.

[muz1875]

For those that don't want a child, I think that the guidelines should be; always use contraception during sexual intercourse but if that should fail, use emergency contraception the next day.

What makes you think you always know straight away it's failed?


I would make abortion compulsory in some cases. Too many nonentities happy to sit on their erse being supported by the state (that's you and I) as it is. If you can't support a child or give it a decent chance in life you shouldnt be allowed to have one.

That should put the cat amongst the pigeons!! :wink:

:agree: No argument from me.

[Andy74]

:top marks

Throw in family & friends opinions of giving up a kid. Could lead to breakdown of relationships with people when they would be needed most. Bare in mind that people are very judgemental.

Doh, just seen you've put it would be a social issue.

This higlhights to me what is probably a view based on religious issues.

You could say it's a moral stance not a religious one and that life is sacred. That doesn't really sit with the justification that you can kill the feotus if the mother was raped or the birth could harm the mother. surely this is all god's will and they have no right to kill the footus if a life is a life.

No, you need to take a view of the quality of life for all concerned. I've been close to a decision like this and trust me, it is the most difficult thing that those concerned will got hrough and the decision will live with them forever, but in many cases it is the best decision for all, including the unborn feotus.

To say that it is black and white and that you must go through with a birth because you made the decision to have sex is dangerous and should always be made by the people concerned, they should have a choice and should not be influenced by religious views or other peoples morality. It's not a choice that people make lightly despite some of the claims of it being a form of contraception. total nonsense that.

[HibsMax]

Yes but I don't like the idea of it being used as contraception. Ultimately though, it's a woman's body and it's her choice.

What about the baby, don't they get a say in any of this? Sadly, no. What about the father? See previous answer.

If a woman accidentally gets pregnant then there is no way that the rest of her life should change drastically because she's not ready to be a mother. Why force a woman into being a parent and expose them to all the inherent risks of pregnancy / childbirth when they are unwilling and / or not ready to be a mother?

[HibsMax]

:agree: IMHO should only be used in cases of rape and if the pregnancy threatens the mother.

If people don't want to have a baby they should be more careful and not get into the situation in the first place. There are enough options and enough education out there for no-one to have any excuses nowadays. If someone wants to be irresponsible, then they can deal with the consequences.
Sorry but that's not true. What contraceptive is 100% fail safe? Accidents DO happen.

[HibsMax]

However, in pretty much all other cases, if you have full sexual intercourse (even with contraception), then you have to accept that it's likely/highly likely that a pregnancy will be the result.

Really? I don't think that way at all. If you use contraception then I would suggest that it's highly UNLIKELY that pregnancy will result, but I agree that it is still a risk. If a couple takes proper precautions and pregnancy still results I am totally against the notion of, "it's your mess, deal with it".


The only full proof way to avoid getting pregnant, is to avoid full intercourse. It's really not difficult.
LOL. That's hilarious. That's like saying the only way to avoid getting in a car accident is to not drive. :wink:


People need to take more responsibility for their actions. Sex is something that should be enjoyed, but is not something that should be done lightly. The only time it should be performed is within a stable relationship.
Who are you to tell me or anyone else how sex should be enjoyed? I think that two consenting adult engaging in protected sex IS taking responsibility. Are we going to blame said couple for getting pregnant when they took precautions but the precautions failed? That doesn't sound too rational to me.

[HibsMax]

I think the number of couples falling foul to two types of contraception would apply to a very small minority of people, so I would be happy to say that in those cases, the pregnancy should go ahead and if they are determined not have the child, it should be put up for adoption.
and so the unwilling mother should be forced to face the risk of an unwanted pregnancy and childbirth?

[500miles]

Children shouldn't have to suffer being born into homes where they are not wanted. First option.

[Hibrandenburg]

I would make abortion compulsory in some cases. Too many nonentities happy to sit on their erse being supported by the state (that's you and I) as it is. If you can't support a child or give it a decent chance in life you shouldnt be allowed to have one.

That should put the cat amongst the pigeons!! :wink:

Obviously on the wind-up but still very a repugnant post.


:agree: No argument from me.

Who's unborn children would you like to start killing first?

[Frazerbob]

Obviously on the wind-up but still very a repugnant post.

Who's unborn children would you like to start killing first?

Not at the wind-up at all. To answer your question to muz1875, I'd start with the junkies, jakies, drug dealers, rapists, murderers, petty criminals and benefit cheats who contribute nothing to society except pain and mysery. Infact, I wouldn't stop at their unborn children, I'd shoot the lot of them and make our World a far better place.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not at the wind-up at all. To answer your question to muz1875, I'd start with the junkies, jakies, drug dealers, rapists, murderers, petty criminals and benefit cheats who contribute nothing to society except pain and mysery. Infact, I wouldn't stop at their unborn children, I'd shoot the lot of them and make our World a far better place.

There's not a lot that would motivate me to take up arms against something, but if people with your beliefs ever got anywhere near to government, I'd do anything to ensure they failed. Still think you're on the wind up :bitchy:

[Sir David Gray]

If it's a life of the child matter than even the conditions of harm to the mother and rape shouldn't come into it.

Essentially what you are saying is that you want to punish iresponsibility by making them have a child. The quality of life for the child under those circumstances would surely be questionable.

If a moman becomes pregnant by being raped you are saying then that the life of the child doesn't matter and the reason is that the woman did not choose it. This just shows that in other cases the child is being used as a punishment.

If the mother is to come to harm then who is to judge who is the more worthy of the life?

Things happen, mistakes happen and if the girl or couple judge that what is best for all is an early termination then they should be allowed that choice.

Once you start putting any conditions on it makes it a stance based on judging an punishing people and not purely on the one ideal that says every potential life should be allowed to be lived.

If there was a better method than the one I've described, then I would be all for it. If there was a way of telling who had used contraception and who hadn't, then it would be possible to give abortions to those that had been responsible but had just been unlucky.

I only oppose abortion because I believe there are far too many people having sex, without being responsible.

Since there's no way of telling who has, and who hasn't, used contraception, I don't see any alternative, apart from continuing with the same policies as we have just now, which do nothing to help tackle the problems of irresponsible sexual relations.


You'd be happy to say. Nice.

Great, never mind the quality of life for the family and child, thay had sex so consequences must be paid.

It's a blooming painful decision to make and it should not be made by people like you on their behalf.

I'm aware that it's not a walk in the park, to decide whether or not to have a baby.

But I still think it's relevant to say that the number of people who would fail TWO forms of contraception, would be extremely low.


I would make abortion compulsory in some cases. Too many nonentities happy to sit on their erse being supported by the state (that's you and I) as it is. If you can't support a child or give it a decent chance in life you shouldnt be allowed to have one.

That should put the cat amongst the pigeons!! :wink:

I can see what you are saying. There are lots of people who really should be discouraged from having children, but I wouldn't say they should be forced to have an abortion.


Falkirk can you even begin to imagine how difficult it would be for a young girl to go through a pregnancy and then give up the child for adoption? Psycologically it wold be horrendous, socially its a huge thing to face, physically demanding etc. She would have to take maternity leave if she worked, what if she had other kids? What would she tell them?

Its not as simple as saying just give it up for adoption, I know that the other option of aborting isn't easy either but I really think you are being too simplistic in your views.

Neither adoption or abortion are easy choices to make, but if you end up pregnant, you have three choices; give birth and keep the baby, give birth and give the child away or have an abortion.

All three decisions will have a significant impact on your life and your relationship.

Perhaps I am being too simplistic. All I really want to see happen is for people to stop being irresponsible with something that is a massive responsibility.

As i've said above, if someone can come up with an idea that is genuinely better than what I've proposed, then I would back it 100%.


Really? I don't think that way at all. If you use contraception then I would suggest that it's highly UNLIKELY that pregnancy will result, but I agree that it is still a risk. If a couple takes proper precautions and pregnancy still results I am totally against the notion of, "it's your mess, deal with it".


LOL. That's hilarious. That's like saying the only way to avoid getting in a car accident is to not drive. :wink:


Who are you to tell me or anyone else how sex should be enjoyed? I think that two consenting adult engaging in protected sex IS taking responsibility. Are we going to blame said couple for getting pregnant when they took precautions but the precautions failed? That doesn't sound too rational to me.


and so the unwilling mother should be forced to face the risk of an unwanted pregnancy and childbirth?

See my comments above.

[Jay]

[QUOTE=FalkirkHibee;1936617] All I really want to see happen is for people to stop being irresponsible with something that is a massive responsibility./QUOTE]


Falkirk I think thats the one thing we agree on. Unfortunately punishing everybody by illegalising abortions is definitely not the answer - IMO its the worst possible answer.

In this country thankfully we have the freedom to make these choices. The best thing we can do is educate and readily provide free contraception for all.
To those who fall foul of this the best thing we can do is support and try to understand their situation - no 2 are the same.
For what I would believe is a very small minortity of girls who use abortion as a method of contraception I think medical couselling should be offered but I would be surprised if it was taken.
To be honest I would think there are more girls having babies to get housing and benefits than there are having abortions.

[Sir David Gray]

Falkirk I think thats the one thing we agree on. Unfortunately punishing everybody by illegalising abortions is definitely not the answer - IMO its the worst possible answer.

In this country thankfully we have the freedom to make these choices. The best thing we can do is educate and readily provide free contraception for all.
To those who fall foul of this the best thing we can do is support and try to understand their situation - no 2 are the same.
For what I would believe is a very small minortity of girls who use abortion as a method of contraception I think medical couselling should be offered but I would be surprised if it was taken.
To be honest I would think there are more girls having babies to get housing and benefits than there are having abortions.

:agree: Definitely, education is the key part. I think there should also be classes for parents to educate them on how to talk to their children about such issues. I think a lot of parents often pass the responsibility of sex education onto the schools, when in fact, the best education on those sorts of things, comes from the home.

Something else that I have alluded to in this thread, but haven't really covered, is alcohol. I think it's also vital that we educate people from a very young age about sensible alcohol consumption.

I don't have a problem with taking alcohol, in moderation, but when it's drunk like tap water, on a Friday and Saturday night, that's when the problems start.

I believe that if we sorted out the drinking culture in this country, the abortion stats that I outlined a few days ago, would be vastly reduced.

[MrRobot]

Children shouldn't have to suffer being born into homes where they are not wanted. First option.


Sort of agree with this.

A kid shouldn't have to suffer in the home of parents who didn't want the child.
Also adoption makes it unfair on the child not knowing who their real parents are etc.

If a couple really think it through, and it's the best decision for all, then it's their choice at the end of the day.

It would be a shame for a child to be born into a family that doesn't want it where it may be neglected, abused and have to suffer for it's life.

Abortion does seem wrong, but if it's the best decision, then it's completely up to the people that have it.

[HibsMax]

See my comments above.

Your comments above don't address forcing a girl into facing the risks associate with pregnancy and childbirth. Consider this scenario. A couple have protected sex but still she end up pregnant. Abortion is not an option because the government has outlawed it. The girl does not want the baby but is forced to carry the baby to term. She dies during childbirth. Does that seem just to you? I know this is an extreme case but we have to consider all the eventualities. Is it fair to end this girl's life prematurely because of someone else's belief system?

[BravestHibs]

First of all I have to say I find it quite bizarre for any man to feel that he should have the final say in what a woman can do and can't do with her body when he will never even come close to understanding what women have to go through with pregnancy and childbirth, I have to say that I'm ecstatic that I'll never have to go through it, but that merely outlines my complete lack of understanding of it as a process as whenever I speak to a woman about it they seem to be nervous about the prospect but either looking forward to it if they haven't had kids or say it was one of the best things ever to happen to them if they have.

My second point would be that even if you outlawed abortion it sure as hell wouldn't stop it. It didn't in the US, it didn't here when it was illegal either. All it did was push it underground where the most horrifying procedures would take place leaving women with agonising infections often leading to death and even more often leading to infertility.To try and stop it from a purely moral point of view in my opinion is exceedingly selfish and speaks of a lack of understanding of the topic in general.

And finally, what alot of posters on here don't seem to understand is that the majority of human beings just aren't that bright. It's easy to say they have to take responsibility but for alot of people they just don't have the mental capacity to make informed decisions about consequences. And I'm not talking about people with mental deficiencies, I'm talking about your average wo/man in the street.

Just to make it clear, I am male.

[Barman Stanton]

[QUOTE=FalkirkHibee;1932445]

People need to take more responsibility for their actions. Sex is something that should be enjoyed, but is not something that should be done lightly. The only time it should be performed is within a stable relationship.
QUOTE]

Christ I think I will be giving a night out in Falkirk a miss. Sounds a right barrel of laughs!?

[Andy74]

[QUOTE=FalkirkHibee;1932445]

People need to take more responsibility for their actions. Sex is something that should be enjoyed, but is not something that should be done lightly. The only time it should be performed is within a stable relationship.
QUOTE]

Christ I think I will be giving a night out in Falkirk a miss. Sounds a right barrel of laughs!?

Just give Christinity a miss! I'm not sure Falkirk has anything to do with it! Although having seen some of the the 'ladies' from there, sex is certainly not something that would be considered lightly.

[Dashing Bob S]

I think it should be compulsory for jambos and optional for everyone else.

[Onceinawhile]

Abortion is a tough tough subject that usually throws up some heated responses. I suppose it depends on your take on life.

The main problem I have with abortion is that at 26 weeks you can still have an abortion yet it's possible for babies to live at this age with today's technology.

The wider question for me is does life begin when you're born or when you fertilise an egg?

To be honest I still don't know where I stand on this but I've gone for the middle option on it.

[hibsbollah]

People need to take more responsibility for their actions. Sex is something that should be enjoyed, but is not something that should be done lightly. The only time it should be performed is within a stable relationship.



Thats unfair, and prejudiced against all the millions of pig-ugly or socially inept people who can't get a **** in a 'stable relationship'. For these people, a quick hump in the pub car park with a semi-conscious, innebriated member of the opposite sex is the only option they have. Its what our social culture is based on, and should be encouraged, nay applauded:agree:

[Woody1985]

Thats unfair, and prejudiced all the millions of pig-ugly or socially inept people who can't get a **** in a 'stable relationship'. For these people, a quick hump in the pub car park with a semi-conscious, innebriated member of the opposite sex is the only option they have. Its what our social culture is based on, and should be encouraged, nay applauded:agree:

:faf:

[Sir David Gray]

Your comments above don't address forcing a girl into facing the risks associate with pregnancy and childbirth. Consider this scenario. A couple have protected sex but still she end up pregnant. Abortion is not an option because the government has outlawed it. The girl does not want the baby but is forced to carry the baby to term. She dies during childbirth. Does that seem just to you? I know this is an extreme case but we have to consider all the eventualities. Is it fair to end this girl's life prematurely because of someone else's belief system?

Maybe i'm just being really thick but I'm not understanding where you're coming from.

Does this woman die as a result of the pregnancy and if so, were the medical people aware that a pregnancy was likely to threaten the life of the woman?

If that is what you're saying, then I would not prevent a woman, who is in such circumstances, from having an abortion.




Christ I think I will be giving a night out in Falkirk a miss. Sounds a right barrel of laughs!?

So the only way to enjoy yourself on a night out is to have full sexual intercourse with someone you hardly know? :confused:


Abortion is a tough tough subject that usually throws up some heated responses. I suppose it depends on your take on life.

The main problem I have with abortion is that at 26 weeks you can still have an abortion yet it's possible for babies to live at this age with today's technology.

The wider question for me is does life begin when you're born or when you fertilise an egg?

To be honest I still don't know where I stand on this but I've gone for the middle option on it.

Good post.

I would totally agree with your opening statement. The debate on abortion has been the toughest issue I have tackled out of all the threads I made the other day. With the rest of them, I'm pretty much content with my stance but on abortion, I can fully appreciate the argument for allowing abortions and I have already admitted that my proposal is probably far from perfect.


[QUOTE=Sir Albert of Kidd;1939830]

Just give Christinity a miss! I'm not sure Falkirk has anything to do with it! Although having seen some of the the 'ladies' from there, sex is certainly not something that would be considered lightly.

What makes you say that? Christians don't all agree on the same things, there are differing opinions, amongst Christians, on all topics and issues.

You only need to compare Doddie and myself to see that. Pretty much the only thing we have agreed on, on this board, is the existence of God and that Jesus is his son.

We are at odds on a lot of other issues that have been debated on here. That doesn't mean that we are not both Christians.

It's the same with football fans. You and I both support Hibs, but i'm sure that we would disagree on certain issues, regarding the best way forward for the club. That doesn't mean that one of us is any less of a Hibs fan.

[Betty Boop]

Thats unfair, and prejudiced against all the millions of pig-ugly or socially inept people who can't get a **** in a 'stable relationship'. For these people, a quick hump in the pub car park with a semi-conscious, innebriated member of the opposite sex is the only option they have. Its what our social culture is based on, and should be encouraged, nay applauded:agree:
Everyone is beautiful in their own way. :greengrin

[Barman Stanton]

[QUOTE=FalkirkHibee;1940206]

So the only way to enjoy yourself on a night out is to have full sexual intercourse with someone you hardly know? :confused:

QUOTE]


No, thats just the difference between a good night and a great one :wink:

[kollontai]

I believe in a womens right to choose.

[The Harp Awakes]

A horrible subject to think about let alone comment on. There's growing evidence now that children in the womb (calling them embryos makes them sound like aliens) soon after conception feel pain, so my own view is that there should only be exceptional circumstances where a pregnancy can be aborted. The current arrangements where the number of abortions are uncontrolled and freely available is disturbing IMO.

[kollontai]

I could be wrong here but I was under the understanding when I was a supporter of fight the Alton Bill that a foetus didn't have the lung capacity to survive outside the womb until up to 28 weeks.This may have changed some what with the advancies in medicine.But women have the right to choose what happens to their bodies.

[Sergio sledge]

I could be wrong here but I was under the understanding when I was a supporter of fight the Alton Bill that a foetus didn't have the lung capacity to survive outside the womb until up to 28 weeks.This may have changed some what with the advancies in medicine.But women have the right to choose what happens to their bodies.

From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premature_birth)


The preterm baby

The earliest gestational age at which the infant has at least a 50% chance of survival is referred to as the limit of viability. As NICU care has improved over the last 40 years, viability has reduced to approximately 24 weeks, although rare survivors have been documented as early as 21 weeks. Though this date is controversial as gestation in this case was measured from the date of conception rather than the date of her mother's last menstrual period gestation appear 2 weeks less than if calculated by the more common method. As risk of brain damage and developmental delay is significant at that threshold even if the infant survives, there are ethical controversies over the aggressiveness of the care rendered to such infants. The limit of viability has also become a factor in the abortion debate.

From This website: (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070220/baby_premature_070219/20070220?hub=CTVNewsAt11)


Amillia weighed just 284 grams -- or less than 10 ounces -- when she was born Oct. 24, 2006. She measured just 9 1/2 inches long -- a little longer than a ballpoint pen.

She was delivered by Caesarean section at 21 weeks and six days after conception, after attempts to delay a premature delivery failed. The exact date of her conception was known because she was conceived by in vitro fertilization.

Some pictures of a baby born pre 24 weeks.

Picture 1 (http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20070220/450_ap_tiny_baby2_070220.jpg) Picture 2 (http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20070220/450_ap_tiny_baby1_070220.jpg)

[HibsMax]

Maybe i'm just being really thick but I'm not understanding where you're coming from.

Does this woman die as a result of the pregnancy and if so, were the medical people aware that a pregnancy was likely to threaten the life of the woman?

If that is what you're saying, then I would not prevent a woman, who is in such circumstances, from having an abortion.
No, I don't think you're being thick. But I will try to articulate myself better.

EVERY pregnancy / childbirth carries with it certain risk. I don't know what that risk is in terms of percentages and I am sure that with modern medicine it's quite low but it's still there. For argument's sake, let's say the risk is 0.0001%. In other words, 1 out of every 1,000,000 pregnancies results in death for the mother.

Now let's say there's a girl who gets pregnant by accident. She's not ready to be a mother and she doesn't want to have the child but (for the sake of this story) the girl lives in a society where abortion is illegal. She's essentially forced into carrying the child to term. Let's also say that she is the unlucky 1 in a million and she dies during childbirth. Wouldn't that be a catastrophe? A girl dying giving birth to a baby that she didn't plan on and didn't want in the first place? The irony in this saga is that the very laws that have been put in place to "save a life" have cost someone else their's.

[Billie Jo]

[quote=FalkirkHibee;1940206]

So the only way to enjoy yourself on a night out is to have full sexual intercourse with someone you hardly know? :confused:

QUOTE]


No, thats just the difference between a good night and a great one :wink:


Indeed sometimes the best:wink:

[hibsbollah]

Everyone is beautiful in their own way. :greengrin

You've obviously never been for a night out in Whitley Bay:greengrin

[Betty Boop]

You've obviously never been for a night out in Whitley Bay:greengrin This is true! :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

No, I don't think you're being thick. But I will try to articulate myself better.

EVERY pregnancy / childbirth carries with it certain risk. I don't know what that risk is in terms of percentages and I am sure that with modern medicine it's quite low but it's still there. For argument's sake, let's say the risk is 0.0001%. In other words, 1 out of every 1,000,000 pregnancies results in death for the mother.

Now let's say there's a girl who gets pregnant by accident. She's not ready to be a mother and she doesn't want to have the child but (for the sake of this story) the girl lives in a society where abortion is illegal. She's essentially forced into carrying the child to term. Let's also say that she is the unlucky 1 in a million and she dies during childbirth. Wouldn't that be a catastrophe? A girl dying giving birth to a baby that she didn't plan on and didn't want in the first place? The irony in this saga is that the very laws that have been put in place to "save a life" have cost someone else their's.

Of course that would be awful and it would be a massive irony. However, in the vast majority of pregnancies, both mother and child are fine. The child only dies, in most cases, if it is aborted.

In this hypothetical case, from the moment of conception, one of the people involved were destined to die. The mother's death could have been avoided if she had had an abortion, but in doing so, her child would obviously have died. Her child could have lived, but only if the pregnancy was allowed to run its course, which of course would kill the mother.

In some cases, it is possible to determine that a pregnancy will threaten the woman's life. When such cases arise, I would not prevent anyone from having the right to an abortion.

Abortion is an incredibly complex and emotive issue. I am not entirely comfortable with my proposal, but I do feel something has to change.

[muz1875]

In this hypothetical case, from the moment of conception, one of the people involved were destined to die.

In some cases, it is possible to determine that a pregnancy will threaten the woman's life. When such cases arise, I would not prevent anyone from having the right to an abortion.


:confused: If you're such a believer of destiny, surely the person in the second paragraph was also destined to fall pregnant and subsequently have their life threatened by it? So why bother intervening there?