holocaust

[Zeberdee]

Just been doing some reading on this after reading the Auswich thread.
:bitchy:


My question is, were The allies aware this was going on during the war? Or did they only find out about the eperiments etc after it?

[duncs]

There were certain corporations who certainly knew what was going on - IBM made the Holocaust a lot more organised with its Hollerith machine - the boss of IBM at the time James Watson was certainly aware of what the machine was being used for.

[Tomsk]

Just been doing some reading on this after reading the Auswich thread.
:bitchy:


My question is, were The allies aware this was going on during the war? Or did they only find out about the eperiments etc after it?

The allies’ understanding and knowledge of the atrocities at Auschwitz and the other death and labour camps developed as the war progressed.

The death camps were built during the latter part of the war. Initially, testimony from escaped Jews – and there were some even from Auschwitz – were disbelieved even at high official levels. Aerial photographs of the crematoriums were taken by allied pilots that supported the escapees’ accounts but even this evidence was suppressed until very late in the war.

When the allied ground forces overran the camps the evidence of course became overwhelming and impossible to suppress.

[The_Todd]

From what I recall, the German population was mostly in the dark over what was going on at the camps, and while the Allies knew what was happening eventually I'm sure nothing could have prepared them for what they faced when they liberated the prisoners.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Just been doing some reading on this after reading the Auswich thread.
:bitchy:


My question is, were The allies aware this was going on during the war? Or did they only find out about the eperiments etc after it?

Churchill knew.

[PeeJay]

The allies’ understanding and knowledge of the atrocities at Auschwitz and the other death and labour camps developed as the war progressed.

The death camps were built during the latter part of the war. Initially, testimony from escaped Jews – and there were some even from Auschwitz – were disbelieved even at high official levels. Aerial photographs of the crematoriums were taken by allied pilots that supported the escapees’ accounts but even this evidence was suppressed until very late in the war.

When the allied ground forces overran the camps the evidence of course became overwhelming and impossible to suppress.

Dachau KZ (concentration camp) was ‘opened’ in 1933, some 200,000 people were imprisoned there and 43000 died, not all of them were Jews. It’s still there, as a memorial site, located to the north of Munich, open for visiting – quite a shocking experience. Many of the camps were open before the war. They weren’t set up just for Jews, basically anyone the Nazis didn’t approve of could be sent there, socialists, communists, homosexuals, gypsies, vagabonds and naturally Jews – but anyone, really!
And of course the Germans knew what was going on, don't believe otherwise - yet it’s only natural that those whose were involved, later on denied it or refused to speak about it. If I may say however, since then, Germany - as a nation - has made tremendous efforts to make sure that what happened back then is communicated in full to German nationals to ensure it never happens again, at least not in Germany. Germany has never denied its past atrocities and has faced up to its terrible past, unlike Japan, which basically pretends that its war crimes and atrocities never happened.
As to the Allies – knowing was one thing, doing anything about it was another, maybe they could have bombed the railway tracks to the camps, but maybe that was too difficult, I don't really know! The Allied Forces were probably indeed shocked, if anything could still shock them that is during that war, when they arrived at the camps all over Europe. The inhabitants of Dachau were forced to visit the Dachau site after it had been liberated, it was filmed by the Allied Forces – a very dark chapter in German history: no hiding from it, no excuses!
You can check this site out if you wish: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.html

[The_Todd]

Churchill knew.

Following on the delightful threads on the main board we could use the chant "Churchill Knew" at Scotland v England games.


:rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

Just been doing some reading on this after reading the Auswich thread.
:bitchy:


My question is, were The allies aware this was going on during the war? Or did they only find out about the eperiments etc after it?

It depends on which sources you read. Most leftwing historians (Hobsbawm comes to mind) think the Allies knew a lot more than they let on. If I had to guess id say the Allies knew about the work camps but not about the extermination camps; Allied spies were all over Nazi germany in WW2, so must have known about the deportation of Jews, but i dont think they had the spies at higher levels who knew about the 'Final Solution'. Stalin probably knew more than Roosevelt and Churchill did.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Whether they knew the extent of the crimes is questionable but that their (the U.S. and Britain in the main) immigration policies consigned thousands (millions?) of people to persecution and death isn't.

See the Evian and Bermuda Conferences.

[Tomsk]

Dachau KZ (concentration camp) was ‘opened’ in 1933, some 200,000 people were imprisoned there and 43000 died, not all of them were Jews. It’s still there, as a memorial site, located to the north of Munich, open for visiting – quite a shocking experience. Many of the camps were open before the war. They weren’t set up just for Jews, basically anyone the Nazis didn’t approve of could be sent there, socialists, communists, homosexuals, gypsies, vagabonds and naturally Jews – but anyone, really!
And of course the Germans knew what was going on, don't believe otherwise - yet it’s only natural that those whose were involved, later on denied it or refused to speak about it. If I may say however, since then, Germany - as a nation - has made tremendous efforts to make sure that what happened back then is communicated in full to German nationals to ensure it never happens again, at least not in Germany. Germany has never denied its past atrocities and has faced up to its terrible past, unlike Japan, which basically pretends that its war crimes and atrocities never happened.
As to the Allies – knowing was one thing, doing anything about it was another, maybe they could have bombed the railway tracks to the camps, but maybe that was too difficult, I don't really know! The Allied Forces were probably indeed shocked, if anything could still shock them that is during that war, when they arrived at the camps all over Europe. The inhabitants of Dachau were forced to visit the Dachau site after it had been liberated, it was filmed by the Allied Forces – a very dark chapter in German history: no hiding from it, no excuses!
You can check this site out if you wish: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.html

Thanks PeeJay.

Dachau was a concentration camp. It would have been no bed of roses there and death and torture would have been commonplace but it was ostensibly a prison. Auschwitz (or strictly speaking Auschwitz Birkenau) was a death camp or extermination camp, and was exclusively purposed for the industrial slaughter of those who were sent there. As it happens there was also a labour camp next to the extermination camp at Auschwitz. In all there six extermination camps. They were all either opened or converted to extermination camps from about late 1941 onwards.

But it true what you say: Jews and others were being systematically murdered by the German authorities in camps long before the war broke out.

For a comprehensive argument that the wider German populace were both aware of and widely compliant in the destruction of the Jews read Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners . But approach with caution, the book's findings have been descredited by several historians.

[Hibs Class]

Whether they knew the extent of the crimes is questionable but that their (the U.S. and Britain in the main) immigration policies consigned thousands (millions?) of people to persecution and death isn't.

See the Evian and Bermuda Conferences.

It was actually Hitler's policy of consigning millions of people to persecution and death that consigned millions of people to persecution and death. I don't believe that at the time of Evian the Holocaust was predictable with any certainty, nor at the time of Bermuda was there an obvious practical solution, even if the extent of the Holocaust was known at the time. What isn't questionable is that for an atrocity on a scale such as the Holocaust one could always find an angle to criticise the Allies if one is determined to do so.

[LiverpoolHibs]

It was actually Hitler's policy of consigning millions of people to persecution and death that consigned millions of people to persecution and death.

Well, obviously. :confused:


I don't believe that at the time of Evian the Holocaust was predictable with any certainty, nor at the time of Bermuda was there an obvious practical solution, even if the extent of the Holocaust was known at the time. What isn't questionable is that for an atrocity on a scale such as the Holocaust one could always find an angle to criticise the Allies if one is determined to do so.

It isn't a question of being determined to criticise the allies. That's just a lazy thing to say - a bit like your opening comment.

It also isn't really a question of predicting the Holocaust, it's one of historical fact. The fact that the conference was held to discuss the problem of Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany would suggest they were aware of the heavy persecution already on-going. There was lovely little deal done between the U.S. and Britain prior to the Evian conference...

[barcahibs]

The very top of the Allied leadership probably knew, but knowing and seeing are different things. I don't think anyone who hadn't physically seen the camps could really imagine what was going on there.
The idea of the holocaust suffered because it was so unimaginably horrible that no-one could really bring themselves to believe it could be as bad as some reports suggested - bear in mind as well that the Red Cross had been in one of the camps (a carefully managed show camp of course) and passed it as ok.

Even if they had full knowledge of what was going on it is hard to see what Churchill and FDR could have done differently, perhaps they could have bombed the railway lines but that was a chancy assignment in those days, a railway line is a difficult target to hit for a WW2 bomber and many crews would have been lost in the attempt for possibly no gain.
It also needs to be remembered that what few supplies the Germans did allow the inmates likely also came by rail, by bombing the lines you may have condemned to death many who did somehow manage to survice until liberation.
Besides what would the Germans have done if the lines had been cut? Let those who they intended to ship there go free? Likely they would have simply murdered them where they were found - again condemning many to death who may have been able to survive til the wars end.

As for the German populace, I personally don't believe the excuse that no-one knew what was going on, far more likely (IMO) is simply that no-one cared. The camps inmates were out of sight, out of mind. I believe that after British forces liberated Belsen (or possibly the Americans at Dachau) the occupants of nearby towns were rounded up and everyone, from the mayor on downwards were forced to file past the dead and the dying to see what had been done in their name. Even at this stage, and for some time after, thousands of victims of the camps were still dying at a terrible rate as their bodies and minds were often just too far gone to be saved.

There were horrible things happening everywhere in Nazi occupied territory and it all had to be ended, the Allied leadership were presented with an insoluble problem and (IMO) made the only decision they could, to prosecute the war against Germany to the fullest extent of their ability, liberate the camps on the ground and crush the Nazi States into the dust.

[PeeJay]

Thanks PeeJay.

Dachau was a concentration camp. It would have been no bed of roses there and death and torture would have been commonplace but it was ostensibly a prison. Auschwitz (or strictly speaking Auschwitz Birkenau) was a death camp or extermination camp, and was exclusively purposed for the industrial slaughter of those who were sent there. As it happens there was also a labour camp next to the extermination camp at Auschwitz. In all there six extermination camps. They were all either opened or converted to extermination camps from about late 1941 onwards.

But it true what you say: Jews and others were being systematically murdered by the German authorities in camps long before the war broke out.

For a comprehensive argument that the wider German populace were both aware of and widely compliant in the destruction of the Jews read Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners . But approach with caution, the book's findings have been discredited by several historians.

Fair point: I've lived here in Germany for many years, also down in Munich, I visited Dachau a few times with visitors – saw the crematorium – a chilling place. Thanks for the tip, I followed the Goldhagen discussion (pretty hefty at times) here and the many others on German complicity and awareness with great interest, e.g. the extent of the Wehrmacht’s or the police’s - or even the local populace's involvement in the Holocaust and so on - that's what I respect about Germany it confronts its past, however painful it may be. It wasn’t just the ‘major’ KZs ‘hidden’ in out of the way places or countries though; nearby, where I now live, there’s a small ‘respectable’ town called Hadamar, where 10000 ‘undesirable’ inmates of a ‘mental institution’ were simply gassed to death in simulated showers (mainly); death certificates were then falsified. Extermination was just around the corner in some instances! Hard to believe that such things could occur in our peaceful and friendly EU! I’m all for it, by the way – the EU that is!!

[--------]

IIRC the Allies knew about the Final Solution from mid-1942, when some Jewish prisoners escaped from the Reich with documentation. [I'm looking for the reference but can't find it right now.]

By late 1944 American daylight bombing raids were being regularly routed over Auschwitz, and they could have easily bombed the camps and provided opportunities for prisoners to escape. The possibility was raised at very high levels, I believe, but was rejected for a variety of reasons, some good, some bad.

And when the orders went out in 1944 for the Hungarian Jews to be transported to Auschwitz, Eichmann sent a Jewish delegate to the Western Allies with an offer to release so many tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews to Turkey (and thence to Palestine) if the Western Allies would be willing to send so many thousands of army trucks to the Reich in exchange. The offer was seen as an attempt to divide the US and Britain from the USSR - the promise was that the trucks would only be used on the Eastern Front. It was turned down, and the Hungarian Jews went to the gas chambers.

It seems fairly clear that Allied Intelligence had a very good idea of what was happening. On one level I think a lot of people simply couldn't get their heads around the idea of a regime systematically murdering 6 or 7 million people. At another there was an unwillingness to bomb prison camps and possibly cause the deaths of the prisoners confined there. And on another level, there was a great degree of anti-Semitism among the Allied government ministers and officials.

But if anyone tries to suggest that the Nazis could have transported the number of people they did transport all over Europe without the German people knowing that SOMETHING evil was going on, I'd have to disagree. SS, Army and Police personnel involved in anti-Jewish actions on the Eastern Front are known to have sent letters home boasting about what they were doing, and photographs too. It was no secret within the Reich.

(Regarding Goldhagen's book that Tomsk mentions, I've read it, and think he goes too far. He has his own axe to grind regarding anti-Semitism; IMO he formed his conclusions before he did his research. One book I WOULD recommend is Christopher Browning's "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" - long title, short book, about 220 pages, very well-researched, and a real eye-opener. It was written in response to Goldhagen, and goes a long way to correct the imbalances in Goldhagen's book.)

[GhostofBolivar]

Thanks PeeJay.

Dachau was a concentration camp. It would have been no bed of roses there and death and torture would have been commonplace but it was ostensibly a prison. Auschwitz (or strictly speaking Auschwitz Birkenau) was a death camp or extermination camp, and was exclusively purposed for the industrial slaughter of those who were sent there. As it happens there was also a labour camp next to the extermination camp at Auschwitz. In all there six extermination camps. They were all either opened or converted to extermination camps from about late 1941 onwards.

But it true what you say: Jews and others were being systematically murdered by the German authorities in camps long before the war broke out.

For a comprehensive argument that the wider German populace were both aware of and widely compliant in the destruction of the Jews read Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners . But approach with caution, the book's findings have been descredited by several historians.

Christopher Browning's books Ordinary Men and Origins of the Final Solution are much better.

[--------]

Christopher Browning's books Ordinary Men and Origins of the Final Solution are much better.


Origins of the Final Solution is hard reading, but a really impressive piece of work.

The TV series Auschwitz, The Nazis, and The Final Solution gives a good general overview with lots of witness-testimony.

[By the end of it, though, I felt like killing one or two of the surviving SS witnesses.]

[Hibrandenburg]

Even the church decided to "look the other way" which I find even more shocking.

[hibsbollah]

Roy Jenkin's excellent book 'Churchill' which I read a couple of years ago (and which is critical of him in a number of other respects), is very clear that Allied leaders had no idea of the scale and scope of the Final Solution until right at the end of the war.

[--------]

Roy Jenkin's excellent book 'Churchill' which I read a couple of years ago (and which is critical of him in a number of other respects), is very clear that Allied leaders had no idea of the scale and scope of the Final Solution until right at the end of the war.


I refer you to Saul Friedlander: Nazi Germany and the Jews 1939-1945 - The Years of Extermination; pp.454-467.

This is the second volume in one of the best histories of the evolution of the Final Solution and is absolutely clear that all the necessary information regarding the mass murder of the European Jews was available to the Allied leadership (Roosevelt, Churchill, Stalin) by the end of 1942.

Intelligence was being routed out of the Reich via Sweden and Switzerland to international bodies like the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and the Vatican, to the UK government, and to a number of Jewish organisations. The ICRC knew what was happening by August-September 1942. Washington and London knew very soon afterwards. The worst news was confirmed to London in December of that year. Roosevelt made it clear that he was aware of what was happening in Europe in a meeting with a number of US Jewish organisations on December 8.

Quote: "On December 10 a detailed report about the mass exterminations in Poland was submitted to the Foreign Office by the Polish ambassador in London, Count Edward Raczynski. The total and systematic eradication of the Jewish population of Poland was once again confirmed. The information reached Churchill, who demanded additional details. At this point the diplomatic obfuscations both in London and in Washington fnally stopped, and on December 14 Foreign Secetary Anthony Eden informed the Cabinet of what was known abut the fate of the Jews of Europe." (Friedlander, p.462)

We knew.

[Tomsk]

Christopher Browning's books Ordinary Men and Origins of the Final Solution are much better.

Thanks to you and Doddie

I'll see if I can locate a copy of Ordinary Men.

Goldhagen took quite a kicking after publication, and if I recall correctly he ended up having to make some pretty public withdrawals.

[--------]

Thanks to you and Doddie

I'll see if I can locate a copy of Ordinary Men.

Goldhagen took quite a kicking after publication, and if I recall correctly he ended up having to make some pretty public withdrawals.


Shouldn't be difficult - you'll get it in Penguin - ISBN 978-0-14-100042-8.

One thing that Goldhagen's book does do well is the photographs. I haven't seen quite as many horrible photos in one book anywhere else.