Government and religion

[poolman]

BBC Breakfast news had a story about Cathedrals in Engerland were short of money and some of their heirarchy were complaining that they get no government funding.

Well, tough titty I say, Its not what taxpayers money should be spent on.

And Governments should stay clear of religion :agree:

[GlesgaeHibby]

BBC Breakfast news had a story about Cathedrals in Engerland were short of money and some of their heirarchy were complaining that they get no government funding.

Well, tough titty I say, Its not what taxpayers money should be spent on.

And Governments should stay clear of religion :agree:

Depends what the money is for. If it is for the upkeep of an impressive piece of architecture that our ancestors built then they should get help, but if it is for purely religious purposes then definitely not.

[Sylar]

Considering the amounts of tax free money the Catholic and Anglican Church get through their congregations and heirarchial structure, they have quite the cheek. Churches get a free ride in this country as it is, and to demand that taxpayers money foots the bill of repairs to the buildings, is quite frankly laughable.

Granted, some of these buildings are of architectural interest and may rope in tourists, but where does that tourist money go to? Surely back into the very church they're visiting? Why can that money not therefore be used to finance any upkeep.

It opens a can of worms asking the government to pay for maintenance of these religious institutions, and they'd do well to avoid any involvement, because as soon as they say "no" to one church, faith or denomination, they'll be painted as prejudiced!

[Danderhall Hibs]

And Governments should stay clear of religion :agree:

:agree: Religion is the root of all evil.

[Woody1985]

It's a joke.

My money going to fund some belief that there is something else out there.

I believe that there is no god. Please forward my cheque to my house where I worship no god.

[davym7062]

:get the money from rome:agree:

[lyonhibs]

Governments plus religion = NO GO.

That's one of the things I like about France. Would you get Sarkozy going on about how he's on a "mission from God" or that he knew he was right "because God was on his side"?? Would you hell!!

They can piss off as far as I'm concerned. I respect anyone from any religion and firmly believe they should have the freedom to practice said religion anywhere they like. All this on the proviso that they don't shove it down my throat, and CERTAINLY on the proviso that they don't go swiping it from my tax contributions.

If I made any that is.............. :duck::devil:

[sleeping giant]

It's a joke.

My money going to fund some idiots belief that there is something else out there.

I believe that there is no god. Please forward my cheque to my house where I worship no god.

Just because you do not believe in a diety does not mean that people who do are idiots.

Erse

[Storar]

:agree: Religion is the root of all evil.
No it's not

It's a joke.

My money going to fund some idiots belief that there is something else out there.

I believe that there is no god. Please forward my cheque to my house where I worship no god.

That's just really sad

[lyonhibs]

It's a joke.

My money going to fund some idiots belief that there is something else out there.

I believe that there is no god. Please forward my cheque to my house where I worship no god.

The lack of brain engagement in this post is simply astounding.

I'm not in the slightest bit religious, but I have many "idiot" friends who believe that there is some higher power etc. All a bit dotty for a cynical "man of science" like myself, but to denounce them all as idiots is, well, idiotic in the extreme.

See what I did there?? :greengrin

[Woody1985]

No it's not


That's just really sad

Why?

Sadder than people beLIEving there's a big guy up in the sky who made everyone/everything in 7 days.

[Woody1985]

The lack of brain engagement in this post is simply astounding.

I'm not in the slightest bit religious, but I have many "idiot" friends who believe that there is some higher power etc. All a bit dotty for a cynical "man of science" like myself, but to denounce them all as idiots is, well, idiotic in the extreme.

See what I did there?? :greengrin

Fair play, I apologise for the idiot comment.

[Peevemor]

Just because you do not believe in a diety does not mean that people who do are idiots.

Erse

But surely he has the right to believe that they are idiots. :greengrin

[--------]

Speaking as one who had a fair degree of responsibility for the maintainance of a "historic building" - not a cathedral, but an 18th-century parish church in the north of Scotland, I can tell you that there's a lot more to this question than meets the eye.

In my case a congregation of about 200 people were faced with the upkeep of a historic building costing around £25,000 to £30,000 per annum, in addition to all the running costs of running the congregation. That's £125-150 per member per year.

We couldn't sell the building - it was in a graveyard dating back to the 15th century (itself a historic monument).

We couldn't walk away - the building was Grade-A listed by Historic Scotland.

We had a Church Hall which would have been a much more convenient building for our use, but if we closed the old church, Historic Scotland and the Scottish Office would be down on us like a ton o bricks. List A buuildings MUST be maintained as they are.

In my mind, it's perfectly simple. If the building is a church dedicated to purely religious purposes, then the congregation should be free to do whatever they like with it or to it - including sending in the bulldozers. That decison should rest solely on the financial health of the congregatiion - what can the poeple directly concerned afford to so with their building?

On the other hand, if someone in government decides that a building is a historic monument and has to be preserved, fine. Let them preserve it. And pay for the privilege.

I'm not a museum curator, nor an architectural expert, nor a historian. In my vie the real church is the people who worship together wherever they worship together - in a school hall (which they'll pay for like all other users), in someone's home, wherever.

The Church of England is a legally established Church. The government has the right to appoint all its bishops and archbishops, for example, and a right cod they make of that sometimes. (And it's the C of E that suffers.)

The Church of Scotland is not. We receive no money from government sources except those grants we apply for on the same basis as any other group in the community.

And btw - I know a lot of congregations who would just LOVE to be able to walk awa from their elderly, decaying buildings and move into more modern premises. But they can't, because some prat's gone and A-listed the things, and they're trapped.

Far too easy to paint people as something they're not, Woody. :devil:

[sleeping giant]

But surely he has the right to believe that they are idiots. :greengrin

He has the right to believe what he wants.

To call someone an Idiot for having faith is the work of a mentalist IMO.

RE Lyon , you cant be that scientific if you dismiss a creator out of hand.
Surely scientists are open minded about all things untill proven otherwise.

Im not religious in the slightest but i have a lot of respect for people who can find peace in religion.
Each to their own.

I'm reading up on Jordan Maxwell just now. This guy has some interesting beliefs :agree:

Eg , most folk accept God as just one thing. Maxwell states that the ancient Hebrew translation (El Homine) (SP) actually is a plural.
El Homine (SP) said lets create man in OUR image.
Anyway , thats a side note:greengrin:

Cmon the Gods

[Peevemor]

He has the right to believe what he wants.

To call someone an Idiot for having faith is the work of a mentalist IMO.

RE Lyon , you cant be that scientific if you dismiss a creator out of hand.
Surely scientists are open minded about all things untill proven otherwise.

Im not religious in the slightest but i have a lot of respect for people who can find peace in religion.
Each to their own.

I'm reading up on Jordan Maxwell just now. This guy has some interesting beliefs :agree:

Eg , most folk accept God as just one thing. Maxwell states that the ancient Hebrew translation (El Homine) (SP) actually is a plural.
El Homine (SP) said lets create man in OUR image.
Anyway , thats a side note:greengrin:

Cmon the Gods

Does that mean that gingers might not be a mistake? :duck:

[Woody1985]

Speaking as one who had a fair degree of responsibility for the maintainance of a "historic building" - not a cathedral, but an 18th-century parish church in the north of Scotland, I can tell you that there's a lot more to this question than meets the eye.

In my case a congregation of about 200 people were faced with the upkeep of a historic building costing around £25,000 to £30,000 per annum, in addition to all the running costs of running the congregation. That's £125-150 per member per year.

We couldn't sell the building - it was in a graveyard dating back to the 15th century (itself a historic monument).

We couldn't walk away - the building was Grade-A listed by Historic Scotland.

We had a Church Hall which would have been a much more convenient building for our use, but if we closed the old church, Historic Scotland and the Scottish Office would be down on us like a ton o bricks. List A buuildings MUST be maintained as they are.

In my mind, it's perfectly simple. If the building is a church dedicated to purely religious purposes, then the congregation should be free to do whatever they like with it or to it - including sending in the bulldozers. That decison should rest solely on the financial health of the congregatiion - what can the poeple directly concerned afford to so with their building?

On the other hand, if someone in government decides that a building is a historic monument and has to be preserved, fine. Let them preserve it. And pay for the privilege.

I'm not a museum curator, nor an architectural expert, nor a historian. In my vie the real church is the people who worship together wherever they worship together - in a school hall (which they'll pay for like all other users), in someone's home, wherever.

The Church of England is a legally established Church. The government has the right to appoint all its bishops and archbishops, for example, and a right cod they make of that sometimes. (And it's the C of E that suffers.)

The Church of Scotland is not. We receive no money from government sources except those grants we apply for on the same basis as any other group in the community.

And btw - I know a lot of congregations who would just LOVE to be able to walk awa from their elderly, decaying buildings and move into more modern premises. But they can't, because some prat's gone and A-listed the things, and they're trapped.

Far too easy to paint people as something they're not, Woody. :devil:

Good post.

I would like to know to get more of an insight to the above though:

1. When the building A listed?
2. Were the owners made aware of their responsilities and potential cost of up-keep when it was A listed?
3. If so, how far in advance?
4. If they couldn't sell, could they have transferred ownership to someone more willing to take it on?
5. How was the up-keep paid for previously?

I do agree it is a bit shoddy to just A list something and then incur people with costs but can't imagine it works quite like that.

I also think that this country wastes far too much money on unnecessary things and at first glance. This appears to be one of them.

[sleeping giant]

Does that mean that gingers might not be a mistake? :duck:


:greengrin:
I know a few gingers are they are all norma............nah yer right:greengrin:

[GlesgaeHibby]

Why?

Sadder than people beLIEving there's a big guy up in the sky who made everyone/everything in 7 days.

Sorry to be a pedant, but he made it in 6 days:wink:

As a scientist I also believe it is highly unlikely that the earth was created as described in Genesis, but we will never be able to disprove the existance of God.

[sleeping giant]

Sorry to be a pedant, but he made it in 6 days:wink:

As a scientist I also believe it is highly unlikely that the earth was created as described in Genesis, but we will never be able to disprove the existance of God.


Amen :agree:



Well actually , Amen (Iman , amin , aman ) is an egyptian God :agree:

Religious texts have been blighted over the years. I truly believe that most religious folk do not know what they are worshipping.

[Woody1985]

Sorry to be a pedant, but he made it in 6 days:wink:

As a scientist I also believe it is highly unlikely that the earth was created as described in Genesis, but we will never be able to disprove the existance of God.

That's the trouble with stuff that isn't there. :duck::duck::duck:

[Woody1985]

Amen :agree:



Well actually , Amen (Iman , amin , aman ) is an egyptian God :agree:

Religious texts have been blighted over the years. I truly believe that most religious folk do not know what they are worshipping.

I just think it's funny that so many billions of people have based their entire existence on what some guy(s) said happened a couple of thousand years ago.

Do none of them every question why so many of them believe in the same god yet their stories are slightly/quite a lot different. Ever heard of chinese whispers?

My guess is that a bunch of people probably made it up simply to impose their will on others by fear of what could happen to you if you do not follow a particular path in life. To keep everyone in check maybe?

FFS, people in Africa (and probably elsewhere) still believe that witches have taken over their children and are evil etc etc. If people can overcome this and see how stupid it is then why can't they do it with other things (I was going to say religion but I'll get moaned at for calling it stupid:duck:).

[sleeping giant]

I just think it's funny that so many billions of people have based their entire existence on what some guy(s) said happened a couple of thousand years ago.

Do none of them every question why so many of them believe in the same god yet their stories are slightly/quite a lot different. Ever heard of chinese whispers?

My guess is that a bunch of people probably made it up simply to impose their will on others by fear of what could happen to you if you do not follow a particular path in life. To keep everyone in check maybe?

FFS, people in Africa (and probably elsewhere) still believe that witches have taken over their children and are evil etc etc. If people can overcome this and see how stupid it is then why can't they do it with other things (I was going to say religion but I'll get moaned at for calling it stupid:duck:).

I too have the same questions and concerns as yourself.

I'd bet if you had been taken to church by religious parents and lived the religious life , you would be a believer too.
Also , if you have been brought up like this and someone tells you its crap , you are going to dismiss their comments as they dont feel it (religion) like you do.

I know a person who is convinced God reached out to them a few years ago. She is an intellegent woman who is very happy within herself and has found a peace that i am quite envious of.

Who am i to tell her its all crap ? What do i know.

I think the way religious folk look at it is that if you are a non believer , then you dont know YET.

Its a cracking subject TBH but you cant be scientific without considering the fact that there may well be a Diety.

If you are interested , there is a good seminar about creation that can be downloaded.
Its Kent Hovind v's The Guy who runs Sceptic magazine (name left me for the time being).
Now , some might say Kent is a nutter (currently doing time for tax evation) but he can debate untill the cows come home and puts forward some very very good arguements.

[sleeping giant]

I
FFS, people in Africa (and probably elsewhere) still believe that witches have taken over their children and are evil etc etc. If people can overcome this and see how stupid it is then why can't they do it with other things (I was going to say religion but I'll get moaned at for calling it stupid:duck:).

What are you trying to say ? Dont you believe in witches like ?:greengrin:

[Storar]

Why?

Sadder than people beLIEving there's a big guy up in the sky who made everyone/everything in 7 days.

Yes it is sadder than that.

It's sad that you're so narrow minded that you can't see that someone that follows Christianity doesn't neccesarily believe all the stories in the bible. I'd actually bet that a large percentage of them don't believe in angels and devils and miracles but the point in following a religion isn't to simply believe a bunch of stories. The point is to use these stories to help make life better for themselves and other people.

[Woody1985]

What are you trying to say ? Dont you believe in witches like ?:greengrin:

Or the devil :angeldevi: :devil::devil::devil:

:greengrin

[Woody1985]

Yes it is sadder than that.

It's sad that you're so narrow minded that you can't see that someone that follows Christianity doesn't neccesarily believe all the stories in the bible. I'd actually bet that a large percentage of them don't believe in angels and devils and miracles but the point in following a religion isn't to simply believe a bunch of stories. The point is to use these stories to help make life better for themselves and other people.

So do some people select what they chose to believe even though they take the info from the same book?

Although I do agree and appreciate that relgion can help some poeple in a good way and give them hope and inspiration. I'm just not one of them.

[lyonhibs]

So do some people select what they chose to believe even though they take the info from the same book?

Although I do agree and appreciate that relgion can help some poeple in a good way and give them hope and inspiration. I'm just not one of them.

Which is a bit of a step-down from saying all religious folk are "idiots" no??? :greengrin

Nah, I'm in the same boat as you. I just can't take the required "leap of faith" (excuse the pun) to follow the laws laid out in a book that was probably written by someone off their tits on mead about 2500 years ago (all IMO of course)

Surely people can't "pick and choose" which "aspects" of a certain religion they "like". It's not like a "Pick and Mix" buffet FFS!!.


My personal religious edict??

Don't be a arse to people, and they won't be ***** to you. Here endeth the "Bible" a la LyonHibs :greengrin

[--------]

Good post.

I would like to know to get more of an insight to the above though:

1. When the building A listed?

The building I'm talking about was A-listed some years before I went there. This wasn't a decision of the congregation's; Historic Scotland (or whatever they were called at the time) inspected the building and classified it as Category A. At least with A-listing there's the possibility of claiming grants to maintain or repair the thing; if it were listed 'B' we'd have had all the responsibility of preservation without being able to claim assistance.

2. Were the owners made aware of their responsilities and potential cost of up-keep when it was A listed?

Yes. But you don't get a choice.

3. If so, how far in advance?

At the same time as the listing, as far as I know.

4. If they couldn't sell, could they have transferred ownership to someone more willing to take it on?

Sometimes the National Trust will take over a building from the owners. Most C of S buildings, however, are owned by the C of S through the General Trustees, who pass the financial responsibility (or a great part of it) back to the congregation.

5. How was the up-keep paid for previously?

By the congregation and through Building Repair Appeals.

I do agree it is a bit shoddy to just A list something and then incur people with costs but can't imagine it works quite like that.

If a building is A-listed, as I say, it must be maintained as HS stipulate. Outside appearance mustn't be changed, and HS must be consulted at each stage of any major work on the building. In my experience, they have the final say in what gets done.

There are congregations in the C of S who have become real experts in approaching various public and private bodies for financial assistance in keeping their buildings up. Kirk O'Shotts, for example, recently underwent a major MAJOR refurbishment costing over a million quid; it was paid for partly by HS grant, partly by private contributions for historical trusts, and partly by money raised by the congregation.

(That's the one off to the left of the M8 as you head towards Glasgow - just by the TV and radio masts.)

I also think that this country wastes far too much money on unnecessary things and at first glance. This appears to be one of them.

I wouldn't disagree with you in the least. The point I'm making (not very well, I admit) is that many congregations would rather be shot of their building and worshipping in a more modern setting than stuck in an ancient and unsuitable building, obliged to ask for government assistance in keepuing the place upright.

Others, of course, see no problem, but not all of us are consenting and willing parasites.

[deek]

it's one book with a thousand interpretations by whatever slant you want to give it.

To me a book is a book whatever the words. Just a story, thats all. Take it or leave it.

[EH6 Hibby]

I just think it's funny that so many billions of people have based their entire existence on what some guy(s) said happened a couple of thousand years ago.

That's the thing I don't understand about Religion, everything that it's based on happened thousands of years ago if it happened at all that is, the people that believe this stuff are trusting in something that they have no way of knowing really happened. I don't really know where I stand on the whole God thing, I want to believe that there is some higher power but it just seems so unlikely to me. :confused:

[humins]

having read this thread, it appears to have been a reasoned and intelligent debate (mostly), where is all the foaming at the mouth & damning each other to hell/tynecastle?
I can see we will never live up to the high standards set by our west coast rivals in these matters. Well done.
Personally I worship Richard Dawkins, the high priest of Darwinism.
Glory Glory to the theory of evolution.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I too have the same questions and concerns as yourself.

I'd bet if you had been taken to church by religious parents and lived the religious life , you would be a believer too.
Also , if you have been brought up like this and someone tells you its crap , you are going to dismiss their comments as they dont feel it (religion) like you do.

I know a person who is convinced God reached out to them a few years ago. She is an intellegent woman who is very happy within herself and has found a peace that i am quite envious of.

Who am i to tell her its all crap ? What do i know.

I think the way religious folk look at it is that if you are a non believer , then you dont know YET.

Its a cracking subject TBH but you cant be scientific without considering the fact that there may well be a Diety.

If you are interested , there is a good seminar about creation that can be downloaded.
Its Kent Hovind v's The Guy who runs Sceptic magazine (name left me for the time being).
Now , some might say Kent is a nutter (currently doing time for tax evation) but he can debate untill the cows come home and puts forward some very very good arguements.

Good post. I personally believe that there is probably a God out there, but that no religion fits with that and what I know to be true. I just can't accept the creationist view that the earth is only 6-10000 years old.

I've always wondered, will people in a few thousand years be mocking the fact that people ever worshipped christianity/judaism/islam etc like we mock the worship of the Greek/Nordic Gods that were revered so high in 'their' day

[da-robster]

Good post. I personally believe that there is probably a God out there, but that no religion fits with that and what I know to be true. I just can't accept the creationist view that the earth is only 6-10000 years old.

I've always wondered, will people in a few thousand years be mocking the fact that people ever worshipped christianity/judaism/islam etc like we mock the worship of the Greek/Nordic Gods that were revered so high in 'their' day

I'd say that it's different. They v'e alredy been around far longer than Islam been around for 1600 chrstianity 2000 and judaism 4000.

In response to the person that said that there can't be more than one interpration of the bible compare it to apolitical you don't only vote for them if you agree with everything they say. I'd guess that very few christians actual take a literal view of and probaly lean to a theory like Gaia.

[cad]

I'd say that it's different. They v'e alredy been around far longer than Islam been around for 1600 chrstianity 2000 and judaism 4000.

In response to the person that said that there can't be more than one interpration of the bible compare it to apolitical you don't only vote for them if you agree with everything they say. I'd guess that very few christians actual take a literal view of and probaly lean to a theory like Gaia.


Thats where it gets frightening ,inquisition comes to mind

[Betty Boop]

Governments plus religion = NO GO.

That's one of the things I like about France. Would you get Sarkozy going on about how he's on a "mission from God" or that he knew he was right "because God was on his side"?? Would you hell!!
They can piss off as far as I'm concerned. I respect anyone from any religion and firmly believe they should have the freedom to practice said religion anywhere they like. All this on the proviso that they don't shove it down my throat, and CERTAINLY on the proviso that they don't go swiping it from my tax contributions.

If I made any that is.............. :duck::devil: Thats because Sarkozy is a Zionist sympathiser :wink: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/868/in2.htm

[cad]

Good post. I personally believe that there is probably a God out there, but that no religion fits with that and what I know to be true. I just can't accept the creationist view that the earth is only 6-10000 years old.

I've always wondered, will people in a few thousand years be mocking the fact that people ever worshipped christianity/judaism/islam etc like we mock the worship of the Greek/Nordic Gods that were revered so high in 'their' day


I wonder what people would make of this in a thousand years .
I have no axe to grind either way ,but I found this recently and it shocked me I new bits and bobs but nothing to the extent of the terror imposed bye supposedly good people I took the film at face value if you think theres an edge fare enough I dont ,I just think there are an awful lot of valid points .
The music and some of it is no to clever but stick with it , it is a a eye opener .

Its about an hour long so get a cuppa ,or indeed a drink you may need it








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