Rangers playing politics (NHC)

[Big Ed]

Don't know if this should be on another forum, but here goes.
On the BBC Scotland News this evening, there was a bit about Rangers parading serving soldiers in uniform, on the pitch prior to the game. As I watched it, I felt a nasty taste in my mouth and I couldn't help thinking that the hierarchy at Ibrox were cynically trying to show themselves as Uber Patriots saluting the Brave Lads back from fighting the nations foes.
At this point, I'd like to state that I do not have a problem with any of the soldiers, all of whom I guess were Rangers supporters. These boys were cock a hoop at getting to walk out at Ibrox in front of a packed stadium, and it must have been a helluva buzz for them.
What I found disturbing though, was Rangers copying the scenario you sometimes see at sports in the US, whereby their armed forces are similarly paraded before an adoring crowd, while the commentators come out with "...you guys are the best..." etc. However Americans seem to accept this as part of their culture and woe betide anyone who says anything to the contrary.
I doubt if I would have been bothered if, say Dundee United, had paraded some of their soldier fans before a home game, but they didn't. It was Rangers, the club with the photo of The Queen in the home dressing room and an institution which offers only lip service to eradicating the cancer of sectarianism in Scotland.
Or am I being a wee bit too touchy?

[Dashing Bob S]

Don't know if this should be on another forum, but here goes.
On the BBC Scotland News this evening, there was a bit about Rangers parading serving soldiers in uniform, on the pitch prior to the game. As I watched it, I felt a nasty taste in my mouth and I couldn't help thinking that the hierarchy at Ibrox were cynically trying to show themselves as Uber Patriots saluting the Brave Lads back from fighting the nations foes.
At this point, I'd like to state that I do not have a problem with any of the soldiers, all of whom I guess were Rangers supporters. These boys were cock a hoop at getting to walk out at Ibrox in front of a packed stadium, and it must have been a helluva buzz for them.
What I found disturbing though, was Rangers copying the scenario you sometimes see at sports in the US, whereby their armed forces are similarly paraded before an adoring crowd, while the commentators come out with "...you guys are the best..." etc. However Americans seem to accept this as part of their culture and woe betide anyone who says anything to the contrary.
I doubt if I would have been bothered if, say Dundee United, had paraded some of their soldier fans before a home game, but they didn't. It was Rangers, the club with the photo of The Queen in the home dressing room and an institution which offers only lip service to eradicating the cancer of sectarianism in Scotland.
Or am I being a wee bit too touchy?

No, you certainly are not. This club is a relentless, right-wing propaganda machine, and all it's doing is encouraging impressionable, poorly educated young men from unemployment blackspots to risk their lives in places like Iraq 'for Queen and country'.

Murray has certainly continued this tradition this obnoxious tradition. You won't see the tub-thumping cowards who organise these kind of events heading out to do any footpatrols in Iraq or Afgahistan soon.

A **** club, cheap, shabby, pompous and with no class at all.

I expect the Jambos to try and copy this soon.

[Billy]

Last week at Celtic Park they had pictures up on screen of serving soldiers who are celebrating birthdays. They also gave out details of an Edinburgh soldier who had sadly been killed on duty. They put a picture of the lad on the screens and everyone stood and applauded (in honour) of his memory.

As an ex squaddie of too many years than I care to remember, I would have loved for Hibernian to have brought me onto the pitch in full military dress(uniform!!) and medals to be applauded by my fellow fans. When I joined up in 1990, I was getting paid about £19 a day. I served in a war zone at 20 years old and was getting paid around £24 a day and was on duty for 24 hours..that's £1 an hour!! We should do more to honour our forces, they do a tremendous job in extremely difficult environments and I applaud Rangers for taking time out to do this.

There are numerous other ex and serving squaddies who use these boards and will no doubt agree that it is a good thing for clubs to do. Whilst most soldiers both ex and serving will always say that they have done nothing to deserve or warrant such ovation, they will no doubt though acknowledge that their peers do deserve it.

I am also aware that someone who works at Hibernian currently keeps serving Hibernian fans up to date with matches, results etc but would not like to have his name mentioned as it would ruin the perception that some have of him :greengrin

[GordonR]

I expect the Jambos to try and copy this soon.

Only if they're recruiting for the Baltic Submarine Fleet, surely?

[marinello59]

I have no problem with Rangers doing this whatsoever. These guys deserve the applause.

[Billy]

No, you certainly are not. This club is a relentless, right-wing propaganda machine, and all it's doing is encouraging impressionable, poorly educated young men from unemployment blackspots to risk their lives in places like Iraq 'for Queen and country'.
Murray has certainly continued this tradition this obnoxious tradition. You won't see the tub-thumping cowards who organise these kind of events heading out to do any footpatrols in Iraq or Afgahistan soon.

A **** club, cheap, shabby, pompous and with no class at all.

I expect the Jambos to try and copy this soon.


Whilst it may be true that a lot of guys who serve in the forces come from relatively poor towns/cities, there are a hell of a lot who are very well educated and come from very good areas.

Not everyone will make it into the forces, they have a strict recruitment policy and a tough basic training that weeds out anyone who does not have the necessary skills to succeed.

When I joined up, I was living in Leith and was in full time employment. The Army was something that I always wanted to do, even as a child and thankfully I made it and had a tremendous time whilst serving. If it wasn't for injury, then I would still be serving. As for Queen and Country...what a load of Nish!! Most guys do it to better themselves, keep out of prison or see it as a career.

[Sir David Gray]

I think it's good that these people are given some sort of adulation and publicity but I also believe that for many fans at Ibrox it would simply be nothing more than an opportunity for them to be seen as supporters of the "truly British club" who are defenders of Queen and country.

That was proven tonight by one call on Jim Traynor's "Your Call" when a Rangers fan called in to say something along the lines of he was proud that the soldiers were paraded at Ibrox but if they had been paraded at the other place across the city, 60,000 people would have chased them out of Parkhead.

It was an outrageous remark and whilst I think that SOME Celtic fans might not particularly wish to embrace members of the British army, not only would they undoubtedly be in the minority but i'm quite sure that there are plenty of Celtic supporters and Roman Catholics proudly serving Britain in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places throughout the world.

Shame on Jim Traynor for only giving him a warning instead of cutting him off. If I was a Celtic fan I would be extremely angry with that comment.

[Big Ed]

I agree with both Bob and Billy's points. As ever, things are not always black and white.
My own politics regarding this are that our troops should not be in either Iraq nor Afghanistan, but they are, and they deserve our support as human beings rather than as tools of the British Government's piss poor foreign policy.
I regard this "tribute" by Rangers as something akin to when they brought out an orange change strip.
What difference should it make if they bring out a strip in recognition of their popular manager being Dutch? - but they know, and they know that everyone else knows, it's a GIRUY to everyone who is not one of "The People".

[marinello59]

I agree with both Bob and Billy's points. As ever, things are not always black and white.
My own politics regarding this are that our troops should not be in either Iraq nor Afghanistan, but they are, and they deserve our support as human beings rather than as tools of the British Government's piss poor foreign policy.
I regard this "tribute" by Rangers as something akin to when they brought out an orange change strip.
What difference should it make if they bring out a strip in recognition of their popular manager being Dutch? - but they know, and they know that everyone else knows, it's a GIRUY to everyone who is not one of "The People".

Sorry, I think you are reading much more in to this than is there. I think it was a rare chance for people to show some appreciation to these guys.

[Davy Mac]

Whilst it may be true that a lot of guys who serve in the forces come from relatively poor towns/cities, there are a hell of a lot who are very well educated and come from very good areas.

Not everyone will make it into the forces, they have a strict recruitment policy and a tough basic training that weeds out anyone who does not have the necessary skills to succeed.

When I joined up, I was living in Leith and was in full time employment. The Army was something that I always wanted to do, even as a child and thankfully I made it and had a tremendous time whilst serving. If it wasn't for injury, then I would still be serving. As for Queen and Country...what a load of Nish!! Most guys do it to better themselves, keep out of prison or see it as a career.:agree:

Fair doos to you Billy - total respect.

I think the OP has a point with a touch of the Dashing Bob Sergeants wit to go with it...............

Sadly the way the Manky mob have gone about their business during their lifetime has created doubt, insincerity, ill-feeling and at times it's been nauseating watching them from a distance.

As a club, I'm sure Rankers meant well by it, but sadly their fans probably see it slightly differently.

GGTTH

[Big Ed]

Sorry, I think you are reading much more in to this than is there. I think it was a rare chance for people to show some appreciation to these guys.

You might be right M59. I just wondered what others thought.

[stubru59]

A PR stunt pure and simple.

Talk earlier on this week of points being deducted if some of their so called fans continue their bigoted chants/singing.

All of a sudden we have Murray parading squaddies in order to show the Ibrox clubs "caring" side.

Do you smell the coffee yet?

[hibsdaft]

imo these parades are happening now because army morale is now by all accounts at rock bottom and the MOD see it as a cheap way of lifting spirits.

i personally am not comfortable with mixing the military and sport/ entertainment in this way during a live conflict, i think you risk getting into very dodgy territory there, although i totally appreciate Billy's comments above, and recognise that this will have meant a lot to the soldiers out there on the pitch today.

but at the end of the day i would rather they paid the soldiers proper money and made sure they at least sent them out fully kitted up when risking their lives rather than hiding behind measures like this.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

A PR stunt pure and simple.

Talk earlier on this week of points being deducted if some of their so called fans continue their bigoted chants/singing.

All of a sudden we have Murray parading squaddies in order to show the Ibrox clubs "caring" side.

Do you smell the coffee yet?

Spot on, thank god Hibs don't go in for this kind of rubbish.
I've personally got friends who have served in the UK forces in Iraq, and another currently in Afganistan, but whilst appreciating the reasons why they joined up, and wishing them nothing but a safe return, my overwhelming sympathy is not with occupiers but with the people of these countries.

[marinello59]

You might be right M59. I just wondered what others thought.


Me being right would be a first. By the law of averages it has to happen at least once. (Although marriage renders this rule null and void seemingly.:greengrin) You'll certainly get plenty of thoughts on this one, it could run on for a while.:greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

Have to say my own feelings are that we should jump at any chance to show our appreciation for our armed forces.

Whatever the politics involved these guys are putting their lives on the line and they get my utmost respect.

I agree the timing of Rangers stunt was probably not a coincidence however I still think its right there should be some kind of show of support from us all on a more regular basis.

Maybe not at football matches but I think the club could give them something - perhaps discounts on merchandise/season tickets.

To any member of our forces reading this board.........

:not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth

[Big Ed]

Have to say my own feelings are that we should jump at any chance to show our appreciation for our armed forces.

Whatever the politics involved these guys are putting their lives on the line and they get my utmost respect.

I agree the timing of Rangers stunt was probably not a coincidence however I still think its right there should be some kind of show of support from us all on a more regular basis.

Maybe not at football matches but I think the club could give them something - perhaps discounts on merchandise/season tickets.

To any member of our forces reading this board.........

:not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth :not worth

And here lies the dilemma. I have always admired the way that members of the British Forces seem to have an understated modesty. They know and appreciate the risks that they take, and do so willingly. They deserve so much more than they receive.
The problem is that public shows of support like this can be cynically manipulated. I am still not 100% sure about all of this. I kind of hoped that by starting this thread, someone cleverer than me would be able to articulate just exactly what it is that makes me so uncomfortable with serving soldiers in uniform walking out onto the pitch at Ibrox.

[Antifa Hibs]

Since the Madchester riots in May the Huns' PR department have been going into over-drive. Some good publicity and that for them...

[Phil D. Rolls]

Shame on Jim Traynor for only giving him a warning instead of cutting him off. If I was a Celtic fan I would be extremely angry with that comment.

Celtic fans are permanently angry, and such a comment would merely serve to justify it.

[AndyP]

I agree the timing of Rangers stunt was probably not a coincidence however I still think its right there should be some kind of show of support from us all on a more regular basis.

I doubt Rangers would have had much choice over the dates, Regimental Post Tour Leave Plots are set in concrete and NOTHING barring another war front openning up would have stopped them. Plus given that most Regiments then go back into training/career course mode soon after returning from leave there would be very few weekends that could be used

[Steve-O]

Does my nut in when the Americans constantly ram it down everybody's throats. All you have to do is join the army and anything else you've done in your life is forgotten, you are now a 'hero'. Not disputing some are, but the OTT rhetoric on US TV / Sports is a bit nauseating at times.

[AndyP]

Does my nut in when the Americans constantly ram it down everybody's throats. All you have to do is join the army and anything else you've done in your life is forgotten, you are now a 'hero'. Not disputing some are, but the OTT rhetoric on US TV / Sports is a bit nauseating at times.

Yanks are suffering from Vietnam guilt syndrome, there treatment of the returning troops from that war was absolutely abhorrent, so they now go over the top in their praise/hero worship to compensate

[Hibrandenburg]

Last week at Celtic Park they had pictures up on screen of serving soldiers who are celebrating birthdays. They also gave out details of an Edinburgh soldier who had sadly been killed on duty. They put a picture of the lad on the screens and everyone stood and applauded (in honour) of his memory.

As an ex squaddie of too many years than I care to remember, I would have loved for Hibernian to have brought me onto the pitch in full military dress(uniform!!) and medals to be applauded by my fellow fans. When I joined up in 1990, I was getting paid about £19 a day. I served in a war zone at 20 years old and was getting paid around £24 a day and was on duty for 24 hours..that's £1 an hour!! We should do more to honour our forces, they do a tremendous job in extremely difficult environments and I applaud Rangers for taking time out to do this.

There are numerous other ex and serving squaddies who use these boards and will no doubt agree that it is a good thing for clubs to do. Whilst most soldiers both ex and serving will always say that they have done nothing to deserve or warrant such ovation, they will no doubt though acknowledge that their peers do deserve it.

I am also aware that someone who works at Hibernian currently keeps serving Hibernian fans up to date with matches, results etc but would not like to have his name mentioned as it would ruin the perception that some have of him :greengrin

Sorry mate, but that's a bit naive to think that Rangers were doing this for the benefit of these service men. I don't know what the Army was thinking when it agreed to do this. IMHO it's tantamount to the Army taking sides in internal politics and that's a dangerous road to go down.

Shocking decision.

[AndyP]

Sorry mate, but that's a bit naive to think that Rangers were doing this for the benefit of these service men. I don't know what the Army was thinking when it agreed to do this. IMHO it's tantamount to the Army taking sides in internal politics and that's a dangerous road to go down.

Shocking decision.

Bull**** IMO, the military is exceedingly apolitical, in fact IIRC, servicemen/women in uniform are expressly forbidden to go to any party political event.

This little exercise would have been conducted under the heading of a KAPE tasking (Keeping The Army in the Public Eye). Had Celtic/Hearts/Hibs/Clachnacudden Athletic asked for a dozen or so returning troops they would have been accomodated in one way or another (be it volunteers or voluntolds)

[Hibrandenburg]

Bull**** IMO, the military is exceedingly apolitical, in fact IIRC, servicemen/women in uniform are expressly forbidden to go to any party political event.

This little exercise would have been conducted under the heading of a KAPE tasking (Keeping The Army in the Public Eye). Had Celtic/Hearts/Hibs/Clachnacudden Athletic asked for a dozen or so returning troops they would have been accomodated in one way or another (be it volunteers or voluntolds)

You may consider my opinion bull****, but I stand by it all the same.

A KAPE publicity event would only be apolitical if it was sponsored by the SFA. The fact that service personnel are being paraded at Ibrox and not all around the country at football grounds is a chance for the Huns to score political points.

If the brass meant this to be apolitical, then it's a botch decision of the highest order.

[AndyP]

You may consider my opinion bull****, but I stand by it all the same.

A KAPE publicity event would only be apolitical if it was sponsored by the SFA. The fact that service personnel are being paraded at Ibrox and not all around the country at football grounds is a chance for the Huns to score political points.

If the brass meant this to be apolitical, then it's a botch decision of the highest order.

That's a totally different Boulabaise alltogether, however I'll ask around and see who else has requested some guys, another thought that just crossed my mind is that it is exceedingly possible that this was part of a supporters club gig. There are some supporters clubs within Battalions with a strong regional tie and it is not an unfair assumption that Rangers would/could have one or two allied to a particular Scots regiment.

Oh as and adendum, Soldiers from County Regiments HAVE been paraded in football grounds all over the country without much problems, musn't let my Scottish parochialism become blind to the fact that the English and the Welsh have requested troops to parade.

[marinello59]

Sorry mate, but that's a bit naive to think that Rangers were doing this for the benefit of these service men. I don't know what the Army was thinking when it agreed to do this. IMHO it's tantamount to the Army taking sides in internal politics and that's a dangerous road to go down.

Shocking decision.

Totally disagree. It is up to each individual club whether they wish to do this type of thing or not. Are the Army supposed to turn down any such requests on the grounds that they have not been invited elsewhere. THAT would be pandering to the petty tit for tat internal politics of Scottish football.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's a totally different Boulabaise alltogether, however I'll ask around and see who else has requested some guys, another thought that just crossed my mind is that it is exceedingly possible that this was part of a supporters club gig. There are some supporters clubs within Battalions with a strong regional tie and it is not an unfair assumption that Rangers would/could have one or two allied to a particular Scots regiment.

Oh as and adendum, Soldiers from County Regiments HAVE been paraded in football grounds all over the country without much problems, musn't let my Scottish parochialism become blind to the fact that the English and the Welsh have requested troops to parade.

Oh come on mate, to compare the situation in Scotland with England and Wales is a bit naive. I know Celtic fans who served but to have them paraded at one of their games would be like waving a red cape in front of a bull. Right or wrong it just will not happen. Like politics and religion the military should be kept out of football in Scotland as it will only fuel the sorry smouldering fires of hatred already present. Sad but true.



Totally disagree. It is up to each individual club whether they wish to do this type of thing or not. Are the Army supposed to turn down any such requests on the grounds that they have not been invited elsewhere. THAT would be pandering to the petty tit for tat internal politics of Scottish football.


Unfortunately it's not just petty tit for tat internal politics is it? The vast majority of football fans in Scotland are polarized between the ugly sisters and their politics of hate, they live from this principle. The army IMHO should turn down any request that would make them seem to be affiliated with any one side.

Now what the individual soldiers decide should be left to their own judgment. However I would strongly recommend that they don't turn up at Parkhead in full regalia waving the Union Flag.