War Memorial at Haymarket

[Hank Schrader]

I have been asked by a Hearts supporter I know if I could post the following on here;

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http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/HWMAG1916/

Please sign the attatched petition to keep the Heart of Midlothian War Memorial in Haymarket.

It is to be removed after this years service to make way for the trams and the council now want to restore it, hidden away in a garden next to Atholl Crescent near the West End, instead of the original plan to place it near Ryries pub* and keeping it in Haymarket.

We feel that the council want to hide this memorial away and this should not be allowed to happen, it must stay in it’s rightful home of Haymarket for everyone passing by to see.

This is not just for Hearts supporters, but Hibs, Falkirk, Raith Rovers and the Scottish footballing family as a whole, as well as the residents of Edinburgh.

*This position is very very close to it’s original position in 1922, it was only placed on the ‘traffic island’ where it stands today in 1972.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I won't be entering into any sort of debate on this as I am doing this as a favour but feel free to comment on the above and add your opinions.

[--------]

The HEARTS War Memorial? :cool2:

[Hank Schrader]

The HEARTS War Memorial? :cool2:

Copied as it was sent to me Doddie, I thought it was the MacRae Battalion Memorial myself.:dunno:

[--------]

Copied as it was sent to me Doddie, I thought it was the MacRae Battalion Memorial myself.:dunno:


Did a quick Google and this seems to be how it's generally spoken of.

Like you, I thought it was for the whole 16th Battalion, not just the Hearts players.

Have to think about this a bit. :agree:

[Cabbage East]

Why do they feel the need to protest about this? And why do we need to be involved? And before anyone says the memorial honours ex-Hibs players too, I don't agree with that. You only need to read above to see who this really affects.

What's wrong with moving it temporarily?

[Peevemor]

Why do they feel the need to protest about this? And why do we need to be involved? And before anyone says the memorial honours ex-Hibs players too, I don't agree with that. You only need to read above to see who this really affects.

What's wrong with moving it temporarily?

Even if it was solely a Hearts memorial, it doesn't mean it's unimportant.

[(((Fergus)))]

The traffic island position is rubbish. This might be a good opportunity to put it somewhere more appropriate (i.e., away from the traffic). I'd suggest putting it in Tynecastle were it not for the fact that it would only have to be moved again.

[MSK]

Even if it was solely a Hearts memorial, it doesn't mean it's unimportant.Correct, this issue crops up many a time on here & can become tiresome & repetitive, i hope, regardless of what its called, it is moved to a suitable & safe place where fans/family etc can pay their respects ....

[Jack Alexander]

Why do they feel the need to protest about this? And why do we need to be involved? And before anyone says the memorial honours ex-Hibs players too, I don't agree with that. You only need to read above to see who this really affects.

What's wrong with moving it temporarily?

I need to clarify a couple of points for you all. Some of you already know that I wrote the history of McCrae's and that I was instrumental in having the cairn built in the village of Contalmaison.

The Haymarket Clocktower is not a memorial to McCrae's Battalion. It commemorates the players, members and supporters of Heart of Midlothian F.C. who died in all arms of the services in the Great War. (A secondary plaque, commemorating those who died in the 1939-1945 war, was added in the '50s.)

Without the formation of the 16th Royal Scots, however, it's doubtful if the memorial would have been built. The voluntary en masse enlistment of the players and supporters in such numbers is what makes the club's wartime contribution so singular and (after the bloodbath of the Somme) so poignant.

Because of this, many supporters of the other clubs associated with McCrae's were drawn to the Haymarket Memorial on Armistice Sunday. And other clubs with no connection to McCrae's attended the annual ceremony out of respect for Hearts' selfless example.

I think it's fair to say that by the end of the '20s the Memorial had come to symbolise something greater than the sacrifice of just one football team. Without losing its maroon heart, the annual ceremony has always welcomed anyone who wishes to attend. And Hibernian have always been officially represented.

The clocktower is an Edinburgh - not just a Gorgie - landmark, unique in the world of sporting endeavour. It stands as a proud reminder of the sacrifice of a generation of young British sportsmen.

That an Edinburgh football club should be the flame that lit this abiding beacon of Remembrance is just one compelling reason why the clocktower must stay in its traditional surroundings.

We feel strongly that this is one issue where football rivalry can be set aside. There has always been a grudging respect between supporters of Hearts and Hibs. This is not the wild and woolly West. Over here the banter (for the most part) has always been good natured.

When fundraising for the Heart of Midlothian War Memorial got underway in 1921, donations were received from all over Scotland and the Empire. Hibernian Football Club were one of the first (symbolic) benefactors.

Finally, for those who doubt the 'stake' that other clubs have in the Memorial - one short example shows how complex this issue really is.

On 1 July 1916 two former Hibernian players were killed in action while serving in the ranks of the 16th Royal Scots. Both supported Hearts. Both, therefore, are among many men with Hibernian connections (through family and the like) who are commemorated at Haymarket.

We ask anyone who is sincerely interested to offer their support for the proposal to keep the old clocktower in its home.

[Cabbage East]

Even if it was solely a Hearts memorial, it doesn't mean it's unimportant.

I never, at any point, said it was unimportant.

I just fail to see why we are being asked to sign a petition for a Hearts memorial on Hibs.net.

[Mr Loverman]

Well said Jack Alexander.

It's probobly good that the thread has only a small number of posts before Jack interjected. Saves the supporters of hibs making insensitive comments about something that should be way above the realm of footbal 'rivalry'.

Sign it. Don't sign it. But FFS, don't be going down the west coast route of uneducated bigotry which we all claim to despise.

[ronaldo7]

This monument HAS to be moved due to the tram works, and as indicated in the OP's original statement "the council now want to restore it, hidden away in a garden next to Atholl Crescent near the West End".

Seems that Atholl crescent is an all round better position for the monument only a stones throw from Haymarket and in an area surrounded by other statues and Monuments.

This would make it easier for the Sunday rememberance services in which approx 300 people attend annually with the crowd's off the streets and in the garden areas.

They also get the Monument restored by the Edinburgh tax payers.

Win, win in my book.

[Cabbage East]

Well said Jack Alexander.

It's probobly good that the thread has only a small number of posts before Jack interjected. Saves the supporters of hibs making insensitive comments about something that should be way above the realm of footbal 'rivalry'.

Sign it. Don't sign it. But FFS, don't be going down the west coast route of uneducated bigotry which we all claim to despise.


Is that how you see fellow Hibbys?

Or are you a Jambo?

Either way, beat it.

[GordonR]

I seem to remember reading not so long ago that the council suggested it be moved to Tynecastle. Which seemed a fly way for them to pass on the cost of its cleaning and maintenance.

Anyone else remember hearing, or know the reason why it never happened?

[MSK]

Its on a traffic island Jack ....traffic was sparse in 1922 & not much busier in 1972..today crossing roads in Edinburgh is a nightmare & a hell of a risk to visit a monument on an island... how about suggesting the monument/memorial clock be re-sited to a more peaceful surrounding such as the botanical gardens ...

[Mr Loverman]

The council have suggested (until July 2008) that the clock be restored to pretty much it's original position outside Ryries pub where it can be visited/viewed safely. Also, the yearly memorial can take place easily in that position.

Only since then have they suggested the wholly inapropriate site of Atholl Cresc Gdns.

It has been in Haymarket for 90 odd years. There is where it should remain.

[Mr Loverman]

Is that how you see fellow Hibbys?

Or are you a Jambo?

Either way, beat it.

Did you actually read what I said?

[sh00byd00]

Well said Jack Alexander.

It's probobly good that the thread has only a small number of posts before Jack interjected. Saves the supporters of hibs making insensitive comments about something that should be way above the realm of footbal 'rivalry'.

Sign it. Don't sign it. But FFS, don't be going down the west coast route of uneducated bigotry which we all claim to despise.

I'm with Monza on this.

I dunno if you just worded it incorrectly, but that's an insult to every Hibs supporting member on this board. If anything, by coming out with such statements, it's only you that's coming across as an idiot.

[Leith_Hibee]

I need to clarify a couple of points for you all. Some of you already know that I wrote the history of McCrae's and that I was instrumental in having the cairn built in the village of Contalmaison.

The Haymarket Clocktower is not a memorial to McCrae's Battalion. It commemorates the players, members and supporters of Heart of Midlothian F.C. who died in all arms of the services in the Great War. (A secondary plaque, commemorating those who died in the 1939-1945 war, was added in the '50s.)

Without the formation of the 16th Royal Scots, however, it's doubtful if the memorial would have been built. The voluntary en masse enlistment of the players and supporters in such numbers is what makes the club's wartime contribution so singular and (after the bloodbath of the Somme) so poignant.

Because of this, many supporters of the other clubs associated with McCrae's were drawn to the Haymarket Memorial on Armistice Sunday. And other clubs with no connection to McCrae's attended the annual ceremony out of respect for Hearts' selfless example.

I think it's fair to say that by the end of the '20s the Memorial had come to symbolise something greater than the sacrifice of just one football team. Without losing its maroon heart, the annual ceremony has always welcomed anyone who wishes to attend. And Hibernian have always been officially represented.

The clocktower is an Edinburgh - not just a Gorgie - landmark, unique in the world of sporting endeavour. It stands as a proud reminder of the sacrifice of a generation of young British sportsmen.

That an Edinburgh football club should be the flame that lit this abiding beacon of Remembrance is just one compelling reason why the clocktower must stay in its traditional surroundings.

We feel strongly that this is one issue where football rivalry can be set aside. There has always been a grudging respect between supporters of Hearts and Hibs. This is not the wild and woolly West. Over here the banter (for the most part) has always been good natured.

When fundraising for the Heart of Midlothian War Memorial got underway in 1921, donations were received from all over Scotland and the Empire. Hibernian Football Club were one of the first (symbolic) benefactors.

Finally, for those who doubt the 'stake' that other clubs have in the Memorial - one short example shows how complex this issue really is.

On 1 July 1916 two former Hibernian players were killed in action while serving in the ranks of the 16th Royal Scots. Both supported Hearts. Both, therefore, are among many men with Hibernian connections (through family and the like) who are commemorated at Haymarket.

We ask anyone who is sincerely interested to offer their support for the proposal to keep the old clocktower in its home.

Happy to sign it. I was there on Armistice Sunday along with many other Hibs fans and the entire Hearts squad (they had a game later that day!).

I don’t think the memorial should be hidden away, it should stand proud where all can see, what these young men did was phenomenal. On a topic like this, where your loyalties lie are (or should be) insignificant.

[sh00byd00]

Did you actually read what I said?


The fact he was responding to the sweeping comment that's contained within your post should answer your question.

[Cabbage East]

Did you actually read what I said?


Unfortunately, yes. It would have been a bit strange of me to quote you and comment on what you'd said, without reading what you'd typed. Don't you think?

[ronaldo7]

The council have suggested (until July 2008) that the clock be restored to pretty much it's original position outside Ryries pub where it can be visited/viewed safely. Also, the yearly memorial can take place easily in that position.

Only since then have they suggested the wholly inapropriate site of Atholl Cresc Gdns.
It has been in Haymarket for 90 odd years. There is where it should remain.

How can you say that this site in the GARDENS is wholly inapropriate rather than where it currently stands.

Surely the Monument can be viewed just as well in Atholl Crescent without the need to dodge traffic:confused:

[fergal7]

How can you say that this site in the GARDENS is wholly inapropriate rather than where it currently stands.

Surely the Monument can be viewed just as well in Atholl Crescent without the need to dodge traffic:confused:

Agree.

I would rather respect them in the tranquility of a garden than one of the busiest traffic junctions in Edinburgh.

[Sprouleflyer]

The only thing that I would add is that Haymarket is going through a massive regeneration programme that will probably see more and more traffic pass through that area. The current site may not be the best place and could be restrictive for the memorial.

If the memorial is to be moved then my shout would be Princes Street Gardens, the area is big enough for the crowds on remembrance Sunday and busy enough for the memorial to retain the importance that it serves.

[MSK]

I never, at any point, said it was unimportant.

I just fail to see why we are being asked to sign a petition for a Hearts memorial on Hibs.net.


Is that how you see fellow Hibbys?

Or are you a Jambo?

Either way, beat it.Thats uncalled for ..he has an opinion as as much as you do ..differ they may but i think yer a tad ott...

All in my humblest opinion ...if thats allowed ..

[(((Fergus)))]

Sounds like the original site is the best place for it. :dunno:

[Cabbage East]

Thats uncalled for ..he has an opinion as as much as you do ..differ they may but i think yer a tad ott...

All in my humblest opinion ...if thats allowed ..

Ok, fair enough.

But how about "Saves the supporters of hibs making insensitive comments about something that should be way above the realm of footbal 'rivalry'."

Is it acceptable for jambos to come on here and post stuff like this these days?

[Jack Alexander]

Its on a traffic island Jack ....traffic was sparse in 1922 & not much busier in 1972..today crossing roads in Edinburgh is a nightmare & a hell of a risk to visit a monument on an island... how about suggesting the monument/memorial clock be re-sited to a more peaceful surrounding such as the botanical gardens ...

Only last year (after an expensive publicly funded 'consultation' process) the same Council officials concluded that it should remain at Haymarket - on a new site in the pedestrian area in front of Ryrie's Bar. The Council's own expensive drawings look magnificent. It's no longer on a traffic island; it's no longer in the road way. In fact it would be returned to (almost) the position it was built on in 1921 - on ground granted by the Council in perpetuity to Heart of Midlothian F.C.

We're not asking for much here. We just want the Council to put the memorial on the very spot that they were themselves advocating only a few months ago. I have no idea who came up with the new proposal to sideline the clocktower in Atholl Crescent, but it contradicts their earlier conclusions completely and it flies in the face of the intentions of those who built the Memorial 96 years ago.

They placed it in the junction because they were proud of the sacrifice and because they believed that people should never forget. Standing in the middle of Edinburgh's busiest junction, it has always ensured that people cannot forget.

The Ryrie's option simply gives us the best of both worlds. TIE have their junction unimpeded. We keep the Memorial in a prominent position worthy of its historical importance, set against the same 'iconic' (the Council's word)buildings that have always formed its backdrop.

Haymarket is the Memorial's 'home'. If this was a Hibernian memorial the same principle would apply. You wouldn't move the Cenotaph in London. You shouldn't consign the clocktower to a garden in a sidestreet, nearly a mile from where it has always stood.

It deserves better than that. But more importantly, the men (and women) that it commemorates deserve better than that.

[MSK]

Ok, fair enough.

But how about "Saves the supporters of hibs making insensitive comments about something that should be way above the realm of footbal 'rivalry'."

Is it acceptable for jambos to come on here and post stuff like this these days?It doesnt bother me mate, his comment never touched me therefore i aint hurt ...as for him beng a jambo ..well thats your opinion ..


Only last year (after an expensive publicly funded 'consultation' process) the same Council officials concluded that it should remain at Haymarket - on a new site in the pedestrian area in front of Ryrie's Bar. The Council's own expensive drawings look magnificent. It's no longer on a traffic island; it's no longer in the road way. In fact it would be returned to (almost) the position it was built on in 1921 - on ground granted by the Council in perpetuity to Heart of Midlothian F.C.

We're not asking for much here. We just want the Council to put the memorial on the very spot that they were themselves advocating only a few months ago. I have no idea who came up with the new proposal to sideline the clocktower in Atholl Crescent, but it contradicts their earlier conclusions completely and it flies in the face of the intentions of those who built the Memorial 96 years ago.

They placed it in the junction because they were proud of the sacrifice and because they believed that people should never forget. Standing in the middle of Edinburgh's busiest junction, it has always ensured that people cannot forget.

The Ryrie's option simply gives us the best of both worlds. TIE have their junction unimpeded. We keep the Memorial in a prominent position worthy of its historical importance, set against the same 'iconic' (the Council's word)buildings that have always formed its backdrop.

Haymarket is the Memorial's 'home'. If this was a Hibernian memorial the same principle would apply. You wouldn't move the Cenotaph in London. You shouldn't consign the clocktower to a garden in a sidestreet, nearly a mile from where it has always stood.

It deserves better than that. But more importantly, the men (and women) that it commemorates deserve better than that.Jack, im trying to find a happy medium here, my suggestion of the botanics was perhaps not the greatest of ideas given your recent quote however i was more thinking of a more quiet & safer place if it has to be moved .....how about moving it over to the corner...the land beside the toilets where the benches are ...safe..& only a few yards away from the original place ...im assuming this has been discussed & thrown out previously..:confused:

[fergal7]

We're not asking for much here. We just want the Council to put the memorial on the very spot that they were themselves advocating only a few months ago. I have no idea who came up with the new proposal to sideline the clocktower in Atholl Crescent, but it contradicts their earlier conclusions completely and it flies in the face of the intentions of those who built the Memorial 96 years ago.

Its EDC were talking about here mate. We were getting rail links to the airport, trams everywhere, train loops re opened.

Someone in there is telling fibs.

[Jack Alexander]

It doesnt bother me mate, his comment never touched me therefore i aint hurt ...as for him beng a jambo ..well thats your opinion ..

Jack, im trying to find a happy medium here, my suggestion of the botanics was perhaps not the greatest of ideas given your recent quote however i was more thinking of a more quiet & safer place if it has to be moved .....how about moving it over to the corner...the land beside the toilets where the benches are ...safe..& only a few yards away from the original place ...im assuming this has been discussed & thrown out previously..:confused:


There's a humungous development planned for that site, happy. Take a look at the Council's own suggestion from just a few months ago. It actually returns the Memorial to its original home. Lord knows who dredged up the Atholl Crescent alternative.

Remember these images were generated by the City of Edinburgh Council - not HMFC or any other interest group. We just want to see them become reality.

http://www.haymarketinterchange.com/img/pdf/haymarket-proposal.pdf

[--------]

The only real issue is whether the memorial is put where the publuc can see it and where a Remembrance ceremony can take place each November.

Since it ISN'T a 16th Battalion memorial, but specifically linked to Heart of Midlothian FC, I really have no opinion on where the powers that be put it.

They can put it wherever they like. :dunno:

[monktonharp]

Happy to sign it. I was there on Armistice Sunday along with many other Hibs fans and the entire Hearts squad (they had a game later that day!).

I don’t think the memorial should be hidden away, it should stand proud where all can see, what these young men did was phenomenal. On a topic like this, where your loyalties lie are (or should be) insignificant.in your opinion

[hibsboy90]

Ok, fair enough.

But how about "Saves the supporters of hibs making insensitive comments about something that should be way above the realm of footbal 'rivalry'."

Is it acceptable for jambos to come on here and post stuff like this these days?

Eh.... Yes.

Football rivalry is about passion and a hobby. And even though some view their support of hibs or hearts to be more than a hobby, the issue of sacraficing one's life should never be put behind football loyalty.

Jambo or not, he makes a lot of good points. Football comes way below war and it's cost in the pecking order of life.

I wasn't insulted by the line about stopping hibbies making insensitive comments, it is infact true. We are very quick on here to make rash judgements and statements, frequently as we are behind a keyboard, not chatting to each other on the streets. It wouldn't be long before a poster came on and said "Who cares, fvuck the hearts!"

Just my tuppence worth

[Gerard]

If the position of the monument is that important to Hearts fans then we should show the respect that this merits.
Gerard

[poolman]

Correct, this issue crops up many a time on here & can become tiresome & repetitive, i hope, regardless of what its called, it is moved to a suitable & safe place where fans/family etc can pay their respects ....



:agree: Much ado about nothing methinks

I'm sure it could be put somewhere nearby Haymarket so they can pay their respects

[Mary Hinge]

The only real issue is whether the memorial is put where the publuc can see it and where a Remembrance ceremony can take place each November.

Since it ISN'T a 16th Battalion memorial, but specifically linked to Heart of Midlothian FC, I really have no opinion on where the powers that be put it.

They can put it wherever they like. :dunno:

Every year something to do with this memorial creeps onto Hibs.Net :brickwall

It is continually peddled as a hearts memorial with the usual patronising comments at the end of every statement, eg "It is relevant to Hibs, Falkirk etc. etc......"

As you say Doddie, they can stick it where they like :agree: Kaunas would be a particularly appropriate site :wink:

[WindyMiller]

I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
I have family that lost their lives in the 1914-18 war and I've visited the memorials in France and Belgium to pay my respects.
I feel the gardens would be an appropriate place for the memorial, for people to go and pay their respects; central, visible, but quieter than the Haymarket junction.

[ronaldo7]

There's a humungous development planned for that site, happy. Take a look at the Council's own suggestion from just a few months ago. It actually returns the Memorial to its original home. Lord knows who dredged up the Atholl Crescent alternative.

Remember these images were generated by the City of Edinburgh Council - not HMFC or any other interest group. We just want to see them become reality.

http://www.haymarketinterchange.com/img/pdf/haymarket-proposal.pdf

Just looked at the photos on the cooncil site Jack, and as I've said on previous posts, I can't see how you will get 300 people at the Memorial on Remembrance days. The figure has been rising in recent years, and if you think of the space between Ryrie's and the road it's just not suitable.

Why is the Atholl Crescent Gardens so bad. It's less than a mile from the current position, and It has plenty of space for people to gather, and it will still be prominent for all to see the Monument?

Seems to me that the Council have thought this out for future years, and the Monument gets refurbished at the same time.:dunno:

[Mr Loverman]

Eh.... Yes.

Football rivalry is about passion and a hobby. And even though some view their support of hibs or hearts to be more than a hobby, the issue of sacraficing one's life should never be put behind football loyalty.

Jambo or not, he makes a lot of good points. Football comes way below war and it's cost in the pecking order of life.

I wasn't insulted by the line about stopping hibbies making insensitive comments, it is infact true. We are very quick on here to make rash judgements and statements, frequently as we are behind a keyboard, not chatting to each other on the streets. It wouldn't be long before a poster came on and said "Who cares, fvuck the hearts!"

Just my tuppence worth

Thanks for that mate.

Just to clarify;

Firstly, sorry if I offended. I can just about see how my comment could have been taken that way.

Within the 1st few posts of this thread there were a couple of inappropriate (IMO) comments made. I was grateful that Jack came on and presented the facts of the matter, rather that it turn into a Hibs against Hearts thing.

This matter is way above that, as others have agreed.

If you aren't interested in the matter then don't post.

Jokes about Kaunas etc just make those who post it look daft.

How would you feel if someone took the piss out of the matter if it was viewed as more of a 'Hibs memorial'?

The posters who are debating about it's location? Fair enough.

But lets remember that its not the next derby game we are referring to here.

A bit of respect is called for.

[Dashing Bob S]

I'm fed up with those Yam-ridden posts about the War Memorial at Haymarket that seem to crop up every six months. There appears to be subtext of glorification (you are dockside/paddy/peg selling **** who are not active patrotic members of the Edinburgh business community) or a slimy co-opting nonsense of making us partners in endorsing the biggest state-sponsonered genocide of working-class people for the profit of the rich ever in history.

Get over it Yams, and please, Hibs net admins, stop indulging them by posting those tedious 'one-upman' threads amd playing into their pathetic hands.

[lapsedhibee]

This will be offensive to many, but I don't see any essential difference between the obsessive insistence on an exact or particular spot for a memorial and the obsessions that other groups or sects have for and with their pasts.
Imo a garden is a wholly more appropriate spot for a memorial than either the 1972 or 1921 spot, and the willingness to enter into conflict with the council or anyone else is nothing to do with respect for dead people but everything to do with puffing out the chests of the living.

[Hibbyradge]

Thanks for that mate.

Just to clarify;

Firstly, sorry if I offended. I can just about see how my comment could have been taken that way.

Within the 1st few posts of this thread there were a couple of inappropriate (IMO) comments made. I was grateful that Jack came on and presented the facts of the matter, rather that it turn into a Hibs against Hearts thing.

This matter is way above that, as others have agreed.

If you aren't interested in the matter then don't post.

Jokes about Kaunas etc just make those who post it look daft.

How would you feel if someone took the piss out of the matter if it was viewed as more of a 'Hibs memorial'?

The posters who are debating about it's location? Fair enough.

But lets remember that its not the next derby game we are referring to here.

A bit of respect is called for.

If we had posted a thread about it on Kickback, I'd fully expect that.

[Hibs On Tour]

I never, at any point, said it was unimportant.

I just fail to see why we are being asked to sign a petition for a Hearts memorial on Hibs.net.

To be fair, if you can't see why for yourself its unlikely anyone will be able to tell you. FFS.... :bitchy:

[Dan Sarf]

"They placed it in the junction because they were proud of the sacrifice and because they believed that people should never forget. Standing in the middle of Edinburgh's busiest junction, it has always ensured that people cannot forget."

That's the crux of it, surely? If it has to be moved, it should be put somewhere PROMINENT as a constant reminder of sacrifices made. I'm signing the petition.

[slingshot]

The HEARTS War Memorial? :cool2:

exactly, dinnae bother askin for my name.

[khib70]

Every year something to do with this memorial creeps onto Hibs.Net :brickwall

It is continually peddled as a hearts memorial with the usual patronising comments at the end of every statement, eg "It is relevant to Hibs, Falkirk etc. etc......"

As you say Doddie, they can stick it where they like :agree: Kaunas would be a particularly appropriate site :wink:
Anyone still think we're not getting crass, ignorant and insensitive comments on this subject:cool2:I'll be signing the petition as much because I'm ashamed of some of the people on here as anything else. If you don't want to, fine - but keep your comments within some kind of definition of decency FFS.

[Big Frank]

"They placed it in the junction because they were proud of the sacrifice and because they believed that people should never forget. Standing in the middle of Edinburgh's busiest junction, it has always ensured that people cannot forget."

That's the crux of it, surely? If it has to be moved, it should be put somewhere PROMINENT as a constant reminder of sacrifices made. I'm signing the petition.


Aye, yer right. The moving of a H**rts memorial clock from Haymarket will stop everyone remembering WW1.

:confused:


Good points from Doddie and Dashing bob.....

Huge respect from me regading ALL the people who went to war and died.

Revisionalist history is not my cup of tea.

[Big Frank]

Anyone still think we're not getting crass, ignorant and insensitive comments on this subject:cool2:I'll be signing the petition as much because I'm ashamed of some of the people on here as anything else. If you don't want to, fine - but keep your comments within some kind of definition of decency FFS.


Dry yer eyes FFS.

Dinae type such guff. Yer ashamed:confused:

Get over yersell.

[khib70]

[/QUOTE]
Anyone still think we're not getting crass, ignorant and insensitive comments on this subject:cool2:I'll be signing the petition as much because I'm ashamed of some of the people on here as anything else. If you don't want to, fine - but keep your comments within some kind of definition of decency FFS.


Dry yer eyes FFS.

Dinae type such guff. Yer ashamed:confused:

Get over yersell.[/QUOTE]
It's called an opinion - if you can't handle anyone having a different one from yourself, dry your own eyes and stay away from debates:bye:

[Owain_1987]

:greengrin:greengrin Want sign nothing with Hearts in the tittle.

[SuzySubaru]

:greengrin:greengrin Want sign nothing with Hearts in the tittle.

Well, that says it all for me really.....despite some of the more sensible posters pointing out that this is really an issue where football rivalries should be put to one side, someone's always got to drag things down to a level I'd expect more from the OF, to be honest!
God forbid that any of those making posts like this should ever be called up to fight for their country!

[Dan Sarf]

"Revisionalist history is not my cup of tea."

I presume you meant "revisionist"? Dictionary definition: "Attempting to reevaluate and restate the past based on newly acquired standards."

Care to expand on how moving a clock is revisionist? :confused:

[degenerated]

Well, that says it all for me really.....despite some of the more sensible posters pointing out that this is really an issue where football rivalries should be put to one side, someone's always got to drag things down to a level I'd expect more from the OF, to be honest!
God forbid that any of those making posts like this should ever be called up to fight for their country!

if it is an issue where football issues should be put the side why is it that the memory of macraes battallion has been hijacked by a certain element as a purely hearts matter in an attempt at cheap point scoring. to me that is equally as crass and distasteful as some of the comments you refer to on here.

[marinello59]

Could it be included somehow in the new stand at Tynecastle or is that too obvious a solution?

[marinello59]

if it is an issue where football issues should be put the side why is it that the memory of macraes battallion has been hijacked by a certain element as a purely hearts matter in an attempt at cheap point scoring. to me that is equally as crass and distasteful as some of the comments you refer to on here.

:agree:

[SuzySubaru]

if it is an issue where football issues should be put the side why is it that the memory of macraes battallion has been hijacked by a certain element as a purely hearts matter in an attempt at cheap point scoring. to me that is equally as crass and distasteful as some of the comments you refer to on here.

Two wrongs don't make a right, do they? Sorry, but I just think an issue where we're talking about men who gave up their lives so we could enjoy the freedoms we do today should come before "cheap point scoring" on ANY side.

[ronaldo7]

Could it be included somehow in the new stand at Tynecastle or is that too obvious a solution?

I think that was one of the plans the council came up with. It was to be placed in behind the Hotel and in front of the Main stand, but I think the trams will be with us for 2010 and the Tiny stand, well...

[LiverpoolHibs]

Two wrongs don't make a right, do they? Sorry, but I just think an issue where we're talking about men who gave up their lives so we could enjoy the freedoms we do today should come before "cheap point scoring" on ANY side.

I've signed the petition, but that is a frankly ridiculous assessment of the First World War.

[SuzySubaru]

I've signed the petition, but that is a frankly ridiculous assessment of the First World War.

I wasn't talking solely about the First World War in that context...

[hibsboy90]

Thanks for that mate.

Just to clarify;

Firstly, sorry if I offended. I can just about see how my comment could have been taken that way.

Within the 1st few posts of this thread there were a couple of inappropriate (IMO) comments made. I was grateful that Jack came on and presented the facts of the matter, rather that it turn into a Hibs against Hearts thing.

This matter is way above that, as others have agreed.

If you aren't interested in the matter then don't post.

Jokes about Kaunas etc just make those who post it look daft.

How would you feel if someone took the piss out of the matter if it was viewed as more of a 'Hibs memorial'?

The posters who are debating about it's location? Fair enough.

But lets remember that its not the next derby game we are referring to here.

A bit of respect is called for.

:confused:

I was saying that what you said about Jack stopping us making insensitive comments is good. I was replying to Monza's views.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I wasn't talking solely about the First World War in that context...

Really? :confused:

[degenerated]

Two wrongs don't make a right, do they? Sorry, but I just think an issue where we're talking about men who gave up their lives so we could enjoy the freedoms we do today should come before "cheap point scoring" on ANY side.

thats quite possibly one of the most ill founded and uneducated remarks i have ever heard about the first world war, exactly the sort of thing one would expect to hear from those i mentioned in my previous post.

[Big Frank]

Dry yer eyes FFS.

Dinae type such guff. Yer ashamed:confused:

Get over yersell.
It's called an opinion - if you can't handle anyone having a different one from yourself, dry your own eyes and stay away from debates:bye:[/quote]


Your not debating! Your being ashamed!

[Big Frank]

"Revisionalist history is not my cup of tea."

I presume you meant "revisionist"? Dictionary definition: "Attempting to reevaluate and restate the past based on newly acquired standards."


Pedant alert. Have to post quickly you see - I work.


Care to expand on how moving a clock is revisionist? :confused:


What are you on about.:confused: Who said anything about the monument :confused: Comment on whats there lad, not what you think is there.

Have a wee read o' degenerated post.

You know fine.

[SuzySubaru]

thats quite possibly one of the most ill founded and uneducated remarks i have ever heard about the first world war, exactly the sort of thing one would expect to hear from those i mentioned in my previous post.

Like I have already said, I wasn't solely talking about the First World War, but about those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in all conflicts. However, unlike some, I have no intention of hijacking this thread to debate the rights and wrongs of the First World War with you or anyone else. The point I was trying to make is that this is an issue where surely decent (and I use that word advisedly) supporters of ALL clubs should be able to put their footballing rivalries to the one side and see the bigger picture. If you haven't or can't grasp that, then I pity you.

[degenerated]

Like I have already said, I wasn't solely talking about the First World War, but about those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in all conflicts. However, unlike some, I have no intention of hijacking this thread to debate the rights and wrongs of the First World War with you or anyone else. The point I was trying to make is that this is an issue where surely decent (and I use that word advisedly) supporters of ALL clubs should be able to put their footballing rivalries to the one side and see the bigger picture. If you haven't or can't grasp that, then I pity you.

not once have i said i cant put petty footballing rivalries aside on this matter, neither have i stated my opinion on this matter on this thread.
whereas you and your revionist buddies are here to stoke the flames on what is an emotive subject and then go running back to kickback claiming the moral highground.
where you comment on posts you find objectionable with faux indignation, i am also entitled to my opinion on how i find the hijacking of the memories of the fallen equally objectional and frankly somewhat distasteful.

your pity is not required

[cabbageandribs1875]

I'm fed up with those Yam-ridden posts about the War Memorial at Haymarket that seem to crop up every six months. There appears to be subtext of glorification (you are dockside/paddy/peg selling **** who are not active patrotic members of the Edinburgh business community) or a slimy co-opting nonsense of making us partners in endorsing the biggest state-sponsonered genocide of working-class people for the profit of the rich ever in history.

Get over it Yams, and please, Hibs net admins, stop indulging them by posting those tedious 'one-upman' threads amd playing into their pathetic hands.


well said DBS :agree:

[Bishop Hibee]

Well, that says it all for me really.....despite some of the more sensible posters pointing out that this is really an issue where football rivalries should be put to one side, someone's always got to drag things down to a level I'd expect more from the OF, to be honest!
God forbid that any of those making posts like this should ever be called up to fight for their country!

Those that were called up to fight in WWI did so to protect the British Empire's interests against the German Empire whatever the lies that they were told at the time. Hopefully our young men and women are better educated now and would rebel against a call up for any such war.

As for the memorial, stick it in Saughton Park. Plenty of room for those that wish to attend the memorial service and a peaceful spot for those who wish to reflect on the folly of of the "Great" War.

[poolman]

Like I have already said, I wasn't solely talking about the First World War, but about those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in all conflicts. However, unlike some, I have no intention of hijacking this thread to debate the rights and wrongs of the First World War with you or anyone else. The point I was trying to make is that this is an issue where surely decent (and I use that word advisedly) supporters of ALL clubs should be able to put their footballing rivalries to the one side and see the bigger picture. If you haven't or can't grasp that, then I pity you.


Well shut the **** up then

You've made your point obvious on here about the memorial

Its a Hibs message board with everybody having opinions about said memorial

The bigger picture :bitchy: Dont make me laugh

Footballing rivalries to one side :bitchy: again dont make me laugh

I said before on this thread its much ado about nothing so take your moral high ground and shove it up yer erse :bitchy:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Those that were called up to fight in WWI did so to protect the British Empire's interests against the German Empire whatever the lies that they were told at the time. Hopefully our young men and women are better educated now and would rebel against a call up for any such war.

As for the memorial, stick it in Saughton Park. Plenty of room for those that wish to attend the memorial service and a peaceful spot for those who wish to reflect on the folly of of the "Great" War.

They had a chance to fairly recently! :wink:

[--------]

Thanks for that mate.

Just to clarify;

Firstly, sorry if I offended. I can just about see how my comment could have been taken that way.

Within the 1st few posts of this thread there were a couple of inappropriate (IMO) comments made. I was grateful that Jack came on and presented the facts of the matter, rather that it turn into a Hibs against Hearts thing.

This matter is way above that, as others have agreed.

If you aren't interested in the matter then don't post.

Jokes about Kaunas etc just make those who post it look daft.

How would you feel if someone took the piss out of the matter if it was viewed as more of a 'Hibs memorial'?

The posters who are debating about it's location? Fair enough.

But lets remember that its not the next derby game we are referring to here.

A bit of respect is called for.


well said DBS :agree:


First, I'm rather unclear as to why Hibs supporters should be being asked to get involved - the monument refers only to the members of McCrae's who had played for Heart of Midlothian FC, not to the Battalion as a whole.

Second, McCrae's was by no means unique in its recruitment methods - Kitchener's New Army was almost entirely made up of similar battalions. They were called "Pals' Battalions" because groups of friends and workmates went to join up together, and the bulk of the Order of Battle at the Somme was made up of such battalions, many of whom had been mustered and had begun training before McCrae's was thought of. In light of all this, I'm somewhat mystified at the prominence given to this particular memorial in Edinburgh, more especially in view of the obscurity in which some other Great War monuments exist in the city.

I would also have to say that IMO many of the recruitment methods employed in the raising of the New Army during 1915-16 were questionable in the extreme, especially in the light of the Army's treatment of its volunteer recruits in the campaigns of 1915.

And third, Atholl Crescent seems to me to be the ideal place for this monument. It's about 500 yards from the present site. It's a dignified Georgian terrace just beside a main city street. The monument will be placed in a garden among trees. The annual service can still take place for those who wsh to attend.

I can't see what possible reasonable objection anyone can have, frankly.

And for the record, while I might not express myself in exactly the terms he uses, I entirely agree with the gist of what Dashing Bob Stewart has said.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

[/QUOTE=Jack Alexander;1769488]

We feel strongly that this is one issue where football rivalry can be set aside. There has always been a grudging respect between supporters of Hearts and Hibs. This is not the wild and woolly West. Over here the banter (for the most part) has always been good natured. QUOTE]


it is perhaps (probably) just me, but why is it that evrything to do with Hearts manages to sound all condescending and arrogant? I mean, do we need Jack Alexander (who i am assuming is a hearts fan?) to come on here and tell us how we feel towards a club, with whom our entire history can be characterised as one of antipathy, to tell us that we are really all friends?

I mean, it is just the twice as fas as i am aware that they have tried to put us out of business..

This is not an attack on Jack by the way, i dont know him from Adam, he is probably just getting caught up with my particular disgust for the new breed of Hearts fan, the one that has morphed from the grotesque arrogance of the early Romanov era to one of sickening and phoney Edinburgh comradeship, you know the type, 'we are not so different', 'we have always been friends deep down' etc etc etc as if we are somehow standing shoulder to shoulder with them in their demise...

Sorry jumbos, we are VERY different, you are in this alone, so wallow.


Apologies for hijacking this worthy thread, I think this is an important issue for Hearts fans, and probably for Edinburgh too, i have always thought the position right in the middle of a busy junction was not the best for quiet contemplation, but agree it should be put in a prominent position, its a very important part of Hearts heritage...whereas they have tried to put us out of business for ours

and THATS the difference

[poolman]

[QUOTE=Jack Alexander;1769488]

We feel strongly that this is one issue where football rivalry can be set aside. There has always been a grudging respect between supporters of Hearts and Hibs. This is not the wild and woolly West. Over here the banter (for the most part) has always been good natured. QUOTE]


it is perhaps (probably) just me, but why is it that evrything to do with Hearts manages to sound all condescending and arrogant? I mean, do we need Jack Alexander (who i am assuming is a hearts fan?) to come on here and tell us how we feel towards a club, with whom our entire history can be characterised as one of antipathy, to tell us that we are really all friends?

I mean, it is just the twice as fas as i am aware that they have tried to put us out of business..

This is not an attack on Jack by the way, i dont know him from Adam, he is probably just getting caught up with my particular disgust for the new breed of Hearts fan, the one that has morphed from the grotesque arrogance of the early Romanov era to one of sickening and phoney Edinburgh comradeship, you know the type, 'we are not so different', 'we have always been friends deep down' etc etc etc as if we are somehow standing shoulder to shoulder with them in their demise...

Sorry jumbos, we are VERY different, you are in this alone, so wallow.


Apologies for hijacking this worthy thread, I think this is an important issue for Hearts fans, and probably for Edinburgh too, i have always thought the position right in the middle of a busy junction was not the best for quiet contemplation, but agree it should be put in a prominent position, its a very important part of Hearts heritage...whereas they have tried to put us out of business for ours

and THATS the difference



:top marks

[flash]

Thanks for that mate.

Just to clarify;

Firstly, sorry if I offended. I can just about see how my comment could have been taken that way.

Within the 1st few posts of this thread there were a couple of inappropriate (IMO) comments made. I was grateful that Jack came on and presented the facts of the matter, rather that it turn into a Hibs against Hearts thing.

This matter is way above that, as others have agreed.

If you aren't interested in the matter then don't post.

Jokes about Kaunas etc just make those who post it look daft.

How would you feel if someone took the piss out of the matter if it was viewed as more of a 'Hibs memorial'?

The posters who are debating about it's location? Fair enough.

But lets remember that its not the next derby game we are referring to here.

A bit of respect is called for.

Consider us all suitably patronised.

[SuzySubaru]

Me and my "revisionist" buddies? I have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about - but it appears that anyone who comes on here without rabidly foaming at the mouth and spouting bile about "yams" is instantly labelled as one!
Where, in any of my posts, have I given that impression? If you can't discuss what is a relatively serious issue without resorting to cheap jibes and insults then sorry, but I'll leave you little boys to your petty playground squabbles.
Right now, the way this thread has degenerated (and yes, I'm using that word advisedly too!), I'm more than happy to go back to my own personal "moral high ground" - the air certainly smells a lot cleaner there!

[lapsedhibee]

Me and my "revisionist" buddies? I have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about - but it appears that anyone who comes on here without rabidly foaming at the mouth and spouting bile about "yams" is instantly labelled as one!
Where, in any of my posts, have I given that impression? If you can't discuss what is a relatively serious issue without resorting to cheap jibes and insults then sorry, but I'll leave you little boys to your petty playground squabbles.
Right now, the way this thread has degenerated (and yes, I'm using that word advisedly too!), I'm more than happy to go back to my own personal "moral high ground" - the air certainly smells a lot cleaner there!

:bye::jamboclow

[marinello59]

Me and my "revisionist" buddies? I have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about - but it appears that anyone who comes on here without rabidly foaming at the mouth and spouting bile about "yams" is instantly labelled as one!
Where, in any of my posts, have I given that impression? If you can't discuss what is a relatively serious issue without resorting to cheap jibes and insults then sorry, but I'll leave you little boys to your petty playground squabbles.
Right now, the way this thread has degenerated (and yes, I'm using that word advisedly too!), I'm more than happy to go back to my own personal "moral high ground" - the air certainly smells a lot cleaner there!


You surely don't mean kickback do you?:hilarious

[--------]

Well, that says it all for me really.....despite some of the more sensible posters pointing out that this is really an issue where football rivalries should be put to one side, someone's always got to drag things down to a level I'd expect more from the OF, to be honest!
God forbid that any of those making posts like this should ever be called up to fight for their country!


Do you have the faintest idea what you're talking about? :cool2:

[Benny Brazil]

Me and my "revisionist" buddies? I have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about - but it appears that anyone who comes on here without rabidly foaming at the mouth and spouting bile about "yams" is instantly labelled as one!
Where, in any of my posts, have I given that impression? If you can't discuss what is a relatively serious issue without resorting to cheap jibes and insults then sorry, but I'll leave you little boys to your petty playground squabbles.
Right now, the way this thread has degenerated (and yes, I'm using that word advisedly too!), I'm more than happy to go back to my own personal "moral high ground" - the air certainly smells a lot cleaner there!

Don't let the door hit you on your way out:bye:

[poolman]

Me and my "revisionist" buddies? I have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about - but it appears that anyone who comes on here without rabidly foaming at the mouth and spouting bile about "yams" is instantly labelled as one!
Where, in any of my posts, have I given that impression? If you can't discuss what is a relatively serious issue without resorting to cheap jibes and insults then sorry, but I'll leave you little boys to your petty playground squabbles.
Right now, the way this thread has degenerated (and yes, I'm using that word advisedly too!), I'm more than happy to go back to my own personal "moral high ground" - the air certainly smells a lot cleaner there!



What an egotistical fud :bye:

[--------]

Me and my "revisionist" buddies? I have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about - but it appears that anyone who comes on here without rabidly foaming at the mouth and spouting bile about "yams" is instantly labelled as one!
Where, in any of my posts, have I given that impression? If you can't discuss what is a relatively serious issue without resorting to cheap jibes and insults then sorry, but I'll leave you little boys to your petty playground squabbles.
Right now, the way this thread has degenerated (and yes, I'm using that word advisedly too!), I'm more than happy to go back to my own personal "moral high ground" - the air certainly smells a lot cleaner there!


Sad case of attempting to engage the mouth (or in this case the keyboard) before ensuring that the brain is in gear....


I'm assuming that there IS a brain in there somewhere, of course. :dunno:

[lapsedhibee]

I'm assuming that there IS a brain in there somewhere, of course. :dunno:
Why? :confused:

[--------]

Why? :confused:


Just trying to give her/it the benefit of the doubt, LH. :devil:

I suppose it's something to do with my inherent fair-mindedness, my forgiving nature, my forbearing and compassionate nature, my gentle, courteous approach to all discussions on this forum....

She'll be on Keechkack right now, telling all the other non-sentient life-forms there how she "didnae hauf tell thae durty Hobos where tae get aff...."

[surreyhibbie]

Tried to sign it, seems to be a problem...

Whatever, it should stay as close to it's current position as possible. In Haymarket.

Football is irrelevant in this argument.

[basehibby]

Having grown up in Roseburn, the clock memorial was always a landmark for me - and a poignant one at that - which added to the look of the haymarket junction as well as the handy side benefit of telling you the time!

To me it's proposed move is yet another uncalled for negative impact of the equally uncalled for and un-needed tram system which various idiot politicos have deemed essential and which WE must pay for.

I think the Jambos have a point here - nobody asked the people of edinburgh if they wanted trams and noone seems to have asked if we want one of our landmarks unceremoniously shoved out the way.

I'll sign the petition - I like the old clock and I respect the underlying reasons for it's construction - I'd like it to stay in haymarket junction where I can see it and continue to get an occasional time chack as well as an occasional moment of reflection about the victims of the great war. :agree:

[--------]

Having grown up in Roseburn, the clock memorial was always a landmark for me - and a poignant one at that - which added to the look of the haymarket junction as well as the handy side benefit of telling you the time!

To me it's proposed move is yet another uncalled for negative impact of the equally uncalled for and un-needed tram system which various idiot politicos have deemed essential and which WE must pay for.

I think the Jambos have a point here - nobody asked the people of edinburgh if they wanted trams and noone seems to have asked if we want one of our landmarks unceremoniously shoved out the way.

I'll sign the petition - I like the old clock and I respect the underlying reasons for it's construction - I'd like it to stay in haymarket junction where I can see it and continue to get an occasional time chack as well as an occasional moment of reflection about the victims of the great war. :agree:


The last time I paused at Haymarket for a moment of quiet reflection about the victims of the Great War, I was nearly run down by a 33 bus.

Seriously, I can understand people who live around the area and who see the thing day by day not wanting it moved, but if the whole junction's being rebuilt, and there's a reasonable alternative place to move it to, I don't see the problem.

Change happens. :dunno:

[monktonharp]

Two wrongs don't make a right, do they? Sorry, but I just think an issue where we're talking about men who gave up their lives so we could enjoy the freedoms we do today should come before "cheap point scoring" on ANY side. what the **** are you saying? about a war,started by a Serbian,assasinating an Austrian prince,which cost millions of deaths in europe.that war was never about liberty,more about greed ,and our young men were Sent to their deaths by bumbling buffoons.

[Dan Sarf]

"that war was never about liberty,more about greed ,and our young men were Sent to their deaths by bumbling buffoons."

I see, I see. Well let's just forget about them, eh? :confused:

[Dashing Bob S]

what the **** are you saying? about a war,started by a Serbian,assasinating an Austrian prince,which cost millions of deaths in europe.that war was never about liberty,more about greed ,and our young men were Sent to their deaths by bumbling buffoons.

No need to worry, I'm sure the reactionary and confused rants of this blithering fool will find a far more receptive audience over on Sickbag.

[hibee_nation]

By the time they were ready to go over the top the whys and wherfores didn't really count for much to them. They were doing their duty poor sods and should be remembered. The pics from the council look good and should be placed there, imho.

[Sunny1875]

I seem to remember reading not so long ago that the council suggested it be moved to Tynecastle. Which seemed a fly way for them to pass on the cost of its cleaning and maintenance.

Anyone else remember hearing, or know the reason why it never happened?


It never happened as they did not want to move it again so soon when the flat construction gets underway.

Personally I dont care where it moves to as long as it is in a spot where the fallen can be remembered .... think the gardens would be a more peacefull site than haymarket to have a rememberance anyway

[andyf5]

signed the petition. Visited the "football memorial" in France last year, read the story of Macrae's battalion and my feeling is that it should stay where it is and not be hidden away. The original council plan is best, imho.

[--------]

signed the petition. Visited the "football memorial" in France last year, read the story of Macrae's battalion and my feeling is that it should stay where it is and not be hidden away. The original council plan is best, imho.


It'll hardly be "hidden away" in Atholl Crescent, for crying out loud. It'll be less than 500 yards away from where it is now, and less than half a mile from Princes Street.

If you want "hidden away" try finding the memorial to the men of the 7th Battalion who were killed in the train crash at Gretna the year before.

[Argyll Gargoyle]

Signed

[flash]

As it's the Memorial to Hearts players killed in World War 1 then surely the ideal solution would be to move it to a site beside the stadium?

[--------]

As it's the Memorial to Hearts players killed in World War 1 then surely the ideal solution would be to move it to a site beside the stadium?


There's not a lot of room around the Bus Shelter, and of course the day is coming when they'll be moving to their 400,000 seater megastadium which would mean the monument being moved yet again.

(Or maybe not.)

I haven't seen the plans for Haymarket after the trams are up and running, but I would imagine that the principle is to create as much space as possible around the junction so as to facilitate traffic flow from and into Gorgie, Corstorphine, and the city centre.

I really don't see what the fuss is all about. :dunno:

[Argyll Gargoyle]

Why should it be moved?

My understanding is that when it was originally built it was placed in a prominant position to ensure that for generations after, these mens ultimate sacrifice was never forgotten.

Now that the Memorial has become an inconvenience the council want to move it somewhere where it will not interfere with the flow of traffic. Wouldn't want sunday drivers to be inconvenienced once a year and have to take a minute out to think why they are being held up. Fringe shows, Orange/Connolly walks are an exception of course.

Moving the Memorial clock to Atholl Crescent or some park will make it easier to miss and increases the likelyhood of future generations fogetting, and it smacks of downgrading the importance of these brave young mens sacrifice.

[hibbybrian]

It'll hardly be "hidden away" in Atholl Crescent, for crying out loud. It'll be less than 500 yards away from where it is now, and less than half a mile from Princes Street.

If you want "hidden away" try finding the memorial to the men of the 7th Battalion who were killed in the train crash at Gretna the year before.

http://www.forrestdale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Gretna.html

A sad tale indeed Doddie :violin:

[sahib]

It'll hardly be "hidden away" in Atholl Crescent, for crying out loud. It'll be less than 500 yards away from where it is now, and less than half a mile from Princes Street.

If you want "hidden away" try finding the memorial to the men of the 7th Battalion who were killed in the train crash at Gretna the year before.

Athol Cres. is a very nice setting if you ask me. :agree:

[Dashing Bob S]

Why should it be moved?

My understanding is that when it was originally built it was placed in a prominant position to ensure that for generations after, these mens ultimate sacrifice was never forgotten.

Now that the Memorial has become an inconvenience the council want to move it somewhere where it will not interfere with the flow of traffic. Wouldn't want sunday drivers to be inconvenienced once a year and have to take a minute out to think why they are being held up. Fringe shows, Orange/Connolly walks are an exception of course.

Moving the Memorial clock to Atholl Crescent or some park will make it easier to miss and increases the likelyhood of future generations fogetting, and it smacks of downgrading the importance of these brave young mens sacrifice.

Why should it moved? Ehm, try because it's in the way of a multi-million pound transport development?

[cabbageandribs1875]

It'll hardly be "hidden away" in Atholl Crescent, for crying out loud. It'll be less than 500 yards away from where it is now, and less than half a mile from Princes Street.

If you want "hidden away" try finding the memorial to the men of the 7th Battalion who were killed in the train crash at Gretna the year before.




this one http://www.forrestdale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GretnaList.html

and http://www.forrestdale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Gretna%20Name%20Panels.html

:agree:

would no doubt be referred to as the docksiders battalion by some


edit: just noticed post 99 pointed it out :greengrin

[Argyll Gargoyle]

Why should it moved? Ehm, try because it's in the way of a multi-million pound transport development?


My apologies, I should have explained myself properly.

When I asked the question, Why should it be moved, I really should have worded it Why should it be moved from the original location on the Interchange proposal:

http://www.haymarketinterchange.com/img/pdf/haymarket-proposal.pdf

[WindyMiller]

It'll hardly be "hidden away" in Atholl Crescent, for crying out loud. It'll be less than 500 yards away from where it is now, and less than half a mile from Princes Street.

If you want "hidden away" try finding the memorial to the men of the 7th Battalion who were killed in the train crash at Gretna the year before.

I pause there often (but not often enough), when visiting my parents and grandparents resting place.
It really is a tragic story.

I fail to see the argument that it must be at Haymarket and no-where else. Yes it's prominent, and draws attention, but it's not the best place for quiet remembrance.

Hopefully no-one is pushing this idea forward for the glory of a football club, instead of remembrance of lifes lost.

[Wembley67]

I pause there often (but not often enough), when visiting my parents and grandparents resting place.
It really is a tragic story.

I fail to see the argument that it must be at Haymarket and no-where else. Yes it's prominent, and draws attention, but it's not the best place for quiet remembrance.

Hopefully no-one is pushing this idea forward for the glory of a football club, instead of remembrance of lifes lost.

Absolutely spot on Windy but others will argue purely for the hell of it as you say for the glory of a football club.

For me personally they have to have a look at themselves and see the big picture.

[Gerard]

If the monument can be kept in the same place after the tram works have been complete and allows the traffic to pass it without risk to the public then if should remain. If that is not possible, then another site must be found after consultation with all the various interested parties.
Gerard

[ronaldo7]

My apologies, I should have explained myself properly.

When I asked the question, Why should it be moved, I really should have worded it Why should it be moved from the original location on the Interchange proposal:

http://www.haymarketinterchange.com/img/pdf/haymarket-proposal.pdf

And I pose the question, Why shouldn't it be moved to Gardens suitable to accomodate the people who want to remember the fallen.

The crescent has the facilities to accomodate all who wish to remember the fallen rather than outside a public house surrounded by traffic.

[--------]

this one http://www.forrestdale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GretnaList.html

and http://www.forrestdale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Gretna%20Name%20Panels.html

:agree:

would no doubt be referred to as the docksiders battalion by some

edit: just noticed post 99 pointed it out :greengrin


That's the one.

Of course, it's a wee bit embarrassing when you have 214 men killed by a couple of dozy railway signalmen before they ever left the country....

AND when the War Office initially refused to pay the widows their service pensions because the men hadn't been kiilled in action.

If you run your eye down the list of casualties, you'll see one Private Andrew Forrest Baillie. he was my great-uncle. The rescuers couldn't get him out of the wreckage before the fire reached him. He was shot by one of his officers.

You'll also see a Sergeant John Coombe or Combe. The family spell the name Combe. John was the uncle of Bobby Combe who played for the Hibs during and just after the Second World War. His family and mine are related by marriage.

I have been told that there at least eight names on the muster-role of the battalion which can also be found on the books of Hibernian FC during season 1913-14. There are a lot of Leith families represented on that War Memorial, which (for anyone interested) can be found at the far back corner of Rosebank Cemetery in Pilrig, just along from Leith Walk. (Pilrig Street runs at right angles to Leith Walk from opposite the Boundary Bar, IIRC.)

So I really can't see why anyone should complain about the Haymarket Memorial being moved a few hundred yards along West Maitland Street to Atholl Terrace. :cool2:

I've just noticed that there was one poor chap who went under the rather resplendent name of Napoleon Bonaparte Kerr, of 10 Parson's Green Terrace.

[--------]

http://www.forrestdale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Gretna.html

A sad tale indeed Doddie :violin:


You ain't kidding. :agree:

[MSK]

That's the one.

Of course, it's a wee bit embarrassing when you have 214 men killed by a couple of dozy railway signalmen before they ever left the country....

AND when the War Office initially refused to pay the widows their service pensions because the men hadn't been kiilled in action.

If you run your eye down the list of casualties, you'll see one Private Andrew Forrest Baillie. he was my great-uncle. The rescuers couldn't get him out of the wreckage before the fire reached him. He was shot by one of his officers.

You'll also see a Sergeant John Coombe or Combe. The family spell the name Combe. John was the uncle of Bobby Combe who played for the Hibs during and just after the Second World War. His family and mine are related by marriage.

I have been told that there at least eight names on the muster-role of the battalion which can also be found on the books of Hibernian FC during season 1913-14. There are a lot of Leith families represented on that War Memorial, which (for anyone interested) can be found at the far back corner of Rosebank Cemetery in Pilrig, just along from Leith Walk. (Pilrig Street runs at right angles to Leith Walk from opposite the Boundary Bar, IIRC.)

So I really can't see why anyone should complain about the Haymarket Memorial being moved a few hundred yards along West Maitland Street to Atholl Terrace. :cool2:

I've just noticed that there was one poor chap who went under the rather resplendent name of Napoleon Bonaparte Kerr, of 10 Parson's Green Terrace.Doddie.....:top marks

[ronaldo7]

I need to clarify a couple of points for you all. Some of you already know that I wrote the history of McCrae's and that I was instrumental in having the cairn built in the village of Contalmaison.
The Haymarket Clocktower is not a memorial to McCrae's Battalion. It commemorates the players, members and supporters of Heart of Midlothian F.C. who died in all arms of the services in the Great War. (A secondary plaque, commemorating those who died in the 1939-1945 war, was added in the '50s.)

Without the formation of the 16th Royal Scots, however, it's doubtful if the memorial would have been built. The voluntary en masse enlistment of the players and supporters in such numbers is what makes the club's wartime contribution so singular and (after the bloodbath of the Somme) so poignant.

Because of this, many supporters of the other clubs associated with McCrae's were drawn to the Haymarket Memorial on Armistice Sunday. And other clubs with no connection to McCrae's attended the annual ceremony out of respect for Hearts' selfless example.

I think it's fair to say that by the end of the '20s the Memorial had come to symbolise something greater than the sacrifice of just one football team. Without losing its maroon heart, the annual ceremony has always welcomed anyone who wishes to attend. And Hibernian have always been officially represented.

The clocktower is an Edinburgh - not just a Gorgie - landmark, unique in the world of sporting endeavour. It stands as a proud reminder of the sacrifice of a generation of young British sportsmen.

That an Edinburgh football club should be the flame that lit this abiding beacon of Remembrance is just one compelling reason why the clocktower must stay in its traditional surroundings.

We feel strongly that this is one issue where football rivalry can be set aside. There has always been a grudging respect between supporters of Hearts and Hibs. This is not the wild and woolly West. Over here the banter (for the most part) has always been good natured.

When fundraising for the Heart of Midlothian War Memorial got underway in 1921, donations were received from all over Scotland and the Empire. Hibernian Football Club were one of the first (symbolic) benefactors.

Finally, for those who doubt the 'stake' that other clubs have in the Memorial - one short example shows how complex this issue really is.

On 1 July 1916 two former Hibernian players were killed in action while serving in the ranks of the 16th Royal Scots. Both supported Hearts. Both, therefore, are among many men with Hibernian connections (through family and the like) who are commemorated at Haymarket.

We ask anyone who is sincerely interested to offer their support for the proposal to keep the old clocktower in its home.

Puffed chest.



That's the one.

Of course, it's a wee bit embarrassing when you have 214 men killed by a couple of dozy railway signalmen before they ever left the country....

AND when the War Office initially refused to pay the widows their service pensions because the men hadn't been kiilled in action.

If you run your eye down the list of casualties, you'll see one Private Andrew Forrest Baillie. he was my great-uncle. The rescuers couldn't get him out of the wreckage before the fire reached him. He was shot by one of his officers.

You'll also see a Sergeant John Coombe or Combe. The family spell the name Combe. John was the uncle of Bobby Combe who played for the Hibs during and just after the Second World War. His family and mine are related by marriage.

I have been told that there at least eight names on the muster-role of the battalion which can also be found on the books of Hibernian FC during season 1913-14. There are a lot of Leith families represented on that War Memorial, which (for anyone interested) can be found at the far back corner of Rosebank Cemetery in Pilrig, just along from Leith Walk. (Pilrig Street runs at right angles to Leith Walk from opposite the Boundary Bar, IIRC.)

So I really can't see why anyone should complain about the Haymarket Memorial being moved a few hundred yards along West Maitland Street to Atholl Terrace. :cool2:

I've just noticed that there was one poor chap who went under the rather resplendent name of Napoleon Bonaparte Kerr, of 10 Parson's Green Terrace.

Simple, quiet, and Dignified. The Hibernian Way.

Thank you

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Only last year (after an expensive publicly funded 'consultation' process) the same Council officials concluded that it should remain at Haymarket - on a new site in the pedestrian area in front of Ryrie's Bar. The Council's own expensive drawings look magnificent. It's no longer on a traffic island; it's no longer in the road way. In fact it would be returned to (almost) the position it was built on in 1921 - on ground granted by the Council in perpetuity to Heart of Midlothian F.C.

We're not asking for much here. We just want the Council to put the memorial on the very spot that they were themselves advocating only a few months ago. I have no idea who came up with the new proposal to sideline the clocktower in Atholl Crescent, but it contradicts their earlier conclusions completely and it flies in the face of the intentions of those who built the Memorial 96 years ago.

They placed it in the junction because they were proud of the sacrifice and because they believed that people should never forget. Standing in the middle of Edinburgh's busiest junction, it has always ensured that people cannot forget.

The Ryrie's option simply gives us the best of both worlds. TIE have their junction unimpeded. We keep the Memorial in a prominent position worthy of its historical importance, set against the same 'iconic' (the Council's word)buildings that have always formed its backdrop.

Haymarket is the Memorial's 'home'. If this was a Hibernian memorial the same principle would apply. You wouldn't move the Cenotaph in London. You shouldn't consign the clocktower to a garden in a sidestreet, nearly a mile from where it has always stood.

It deserves better than that. But more importantly, the men (and women) that it commemorates deserve better than that.

This is where this debate starts and should end. A memorial was erected to men who laid down their lives in conflict. I don't give a **** how busy the traffic is, it should accomodate their sacrifice.

[Betty Boop]

Puffed chest.




Simple, quiet, and Dignified. The Hibernian Way.

Thank you:agree: Quite!

[LiverpoolHibs]

This is where this debate starts and should end. A memorial was erected to men who laid down their lives in conflict. I don't give a **** how busy the traffic is, it should accomodate their sacrifice.

There's that word again...

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

There's that word again...

Whats your point?

[--------]

I've said it already and I say it again - McCrae's was by no means unique in the history of the First World War.

When war broke out, Britain had a small, very highly trained and extremely efficient Regular Army. This Regular Army is the Army that went to France in August 1914. These were the battalions who opposed the German advance at Mons and formed the left wing of the Allied Army that finally stopped the Germans at the Marne. They were the British Expeditionary Force, the BEF, the 'Old Contemptibles'.

These men were almost all killed or wounded in the fighting in Flanders in 1915. they were backed up by a well-trained and enthusiastic Territorial Army, of which the 7th (Leith & Lothian) Battalion Royal Scots was part. These men had mostly joined the TA before the War; again, by late 1915 the originals were almost all gone - killed at Loos, First Ypres, Neuve Chapelle and a whole lot of other places for little or no advantage. Others were thrown away at the Dardanelles, where the 7th RS were headed when they met the Glasgow express head-on that Sunday morning in May 1915.

The British Army set about replacng these casualties by raising a huge volunteer Army, the New Army, which was known as 'Kitchener's Army' because Kitchener was War Minister at the time and the famous 'Your Country Needs You" posters with his face on them were part of the recruiting drive.

Most of the New Army battalions who arrived on the Western Front in spring 1916 in preparation for the Somme offensive were battalions raised in exactly the same way as McCrae's. They were known as 'Pals' Battalions, because in so many cases nearly all the men came from the same town, sometimes the same factory or workplace. Martin Middlebrook described this process very well in his book "The First Day on the Somme" - if you check the appendices at the back of that book you'll find the complete British Army Order of Battle for 1st July 1916 and you'll see how many Pals Battalions there were in the front line that day.

You'll also see that many of those battalions took horrendous losses on that day - check out, for example, the fate of the 10th West Yorks, the 1st Newfoundlanders, the 4th Tyneside Scottish, and the 1st Tyneside Irish, all of whom took more than 600 casualties, THAT SINGLE DAY.

(And bear in mind that effective Battalion strength at that time would be about or just over 800 men. The 10th West Yorks lost 710 officers and men dead or wounded in a few hours.)

Now I am NOT denigrating McCrae's, but I AM saying that the idea of a "unique" sacrifice on their part is a wee bit OTT to say the least. Many other battalions were raised just in the way McCrae's was raised, and many other battalions suffered comparable and even worse casualties than they did.

And with respect, if the memorial is moved to the garden at Atholl Terrace, it is highly unlikely ever to be moved again, at least in the lifetimes of those who are interested and concerned in the matter, who are alive today. This is surely a strong argument for the move - re-locate it in the intersection at Haymarket and further developments in transport infrastructure may very well demand it be moved at some point again in the near future. The gardens are surely a good and appropriate place for the memorial, and for any ceremonies of remembrance for the years to come.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Whats your point?

I dislike the thinly veiled militarism (or as someone has just put it 'puffed chest' nature) of terms such as this. As utterly horrific as the First World War was, the word 'sacrfice' is a misnomer. 'Sacrifice' implies that it was for a greater good, it wasn't.

N.B. I hope no-one thinks I am in anyway demeaning the horror of the war.

[ronaldo7]

This is where this debate starts and should end. A memorial was erected to men who laid down their lives in conflict. I don't give a **** how busy the traffic is, it should accomodate their sacrifice.

It does accommodate their sacrifice...wherever it's situated.

[--------]

Whats your point?


Were they the ones giving the sacrifice, or were they sacrificed by incompetent generals for the benefit of heaven knows what?

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori? Aye, right. :cool2:

[ronaldo7]

Were they the ones giving the sacrifice, or were they sacrificed by incompetent generals for the benefit of heaven knows what?

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori? Aye, right. :cool2:

It is not sweet or fitting to die for ones country IMO

[Hibby D]

I've said it already and I say it again - McCrae's was by no means unique in the history of the First World War.

When war broke out, Britain had a small, very highly trained and extremely efficient Regular Army. This Regular Army is the Army that went to France in August 1914. These were the battalions who opposed the German advance at Mons and formed the left wing of the Allied Army that finally stopped the Germans at the Marne. They were the British Expeditionary Force, the BEF, the 'Old Contemptibles'.

These men were almost all killed or wounded in the fighting in Flanders in 1915. they were backed up by a well-trained and enthusiastic Territorial Army, of which the 7th (Leith & Lothian) Battalion Royal Scots was part. These men had mostly joined the TA before the War; again, by late 1915 the originals were almost all gone - killed at Loos, First Ypres, Neuve Chapelle and a whole lot of other places for little or no advantage. Others were thrown away at the Dardanelles, where the 7th RS were headed when they met the Glasgow express head-on that Sunday morning in May 1915.

The British Army set about replacng these casualties by raising a huge volunteer Army, the New Army, which was known as 'Kitchener's Army' because Kitchener was War Minister at the time and the famous 'Your Country Needs You" posters with his face on them were part of the recruiting drive.

Most of the New Army battalions who arrived on the Western Front in spring 1916 in preparation for the Somme offensive were battalions raised in exactly the same way as McCrae's. They were known as 'Pals' Battalions, because in so many cases nearly all the men came from the same town, sometimes the same factory or workplace. Martin Middlebrook described this process very well in his book "The First Day on the Somme" - if you check the appendices at the back of that book you'll find the complete British Army Order of Battle for 1st July 1916 and you'll see how many Pals Battalions there were in the front line that day.

You'll also see that many of those battalions took horrendous losses on that day - check out, for example, the fate of the 10th West Yorks, the 1st Newfoundlanders, the 4th Tyneside Scottish, and the 1st Tyneside Irish, all of whom took more than 600 casualties, THAT SINGLE DAY.

(And bear in mind that effective Battalion strength at that time would be about or just over 800 men. The 10th West Yorks lost 710 officers and men dead or wounded in a few hours.)

Now I am NOT denigrating McCrae's, but I AM saying that the idea of a "unique" sacrifice on their part is a wee bit OTT to say the least. Many other battalions were raised just in the way McCrae's was raised, and many other battalions suffered comparable and even worse casualties than they did.

And with respect, if the memorial is moved to the garden at Atholl Terrace, it is highly unlikely ever to be moved again, at least in the lifetimes of those who are interested and concerned in the matter, who are alive today. This is surely a strong argument for the move - re-locate it in the intersection at Haymarket and further developments in transport infrastructure may very well demand it be moved at some point again in the near future. The gardens are surely a good and appropriate place for the memorial, and for any ceremonies of remembrance for the years to come.

An excellently written and informative post Dod :agree:

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

I dislike the thinly veiled militarism (or as someone has just put it 'puffed chest' nature) of terms such as this. As utterly horrific as the First World War was, the word 'sacrfice' is a misnomer. 'Sacrifice' implies that it was for a greater good, it wasn't.

N.B. I hope no-one thinks I am in anyway demeaning the horror of the war.

I completely agree.

However, can you understand why the individuals enlisted? Can you see the reasoning behind their decision at the time, given the circumstances?

[Hibby D]

It is not sweet or fitting to die for ones country IMO

I think that's his point :agree:

[LiverpoolHibs]

I completely agree.

However, can you understand why the individuals enlisted? Can you see the reasoning behind their decision at the time, given the circumstances?

No, frankly I can't. And there were plenty (from the demographic I assume you are implying) who didn't both before and after the introduction of conscription.

[Anto the Hibernian]

I've said it already and I say it again - McCrae's was by no means unique in the history of the First World War.

When war broke out, Britain had a small, very highly trained and extremely efficient Regular Army. This Regular Army is the Army that went to France in August 1914. These were the battalions who opposed the German advance at Mons and formed the left wing of the Allied Army that finally stopped the Germans at the Marne. They were the British Expeditionary Force, the BEF, the 'Old Contemptibles'.

These men were almost all killed or wounded in the fighting in Flanders in 1915. they were backed up by a well-trained and enthusiastic Territorial Army, of which the 7th (Leith & Lothian) Battalion Royal Scots was part. These men had mostly joined the TA before the War; again, by late 1915 the originals were almost all gone - killed at Loos, First Ypres, Neuve Chapelle and a whole lot of other places for little or no advantage. Others were thrown away at the Dardanelles, where the 7th RS were headed when they met the Glasgow express head-on that Sunday morning in May 1915.

The British Army set about replacng these casualties by raising a huge volunteer Army, the New Army, which was known as 'Kitchener's Army' because Kitchener was War Minister at the time and the famous 'Your Country Needs You" posters with his face on them were part of the recruiting drive.

Most of the New Army battalions who arrived on the Western Front in spring 1916 in preparation for the Somme offensive were battalions raised in exactly the same way as McCrae's. They were known as 'Pals' Battalions, because in so many cases nearly all the men came from the same town, sometimes the same factory or workplace. Martin Middlebrook described this process very well in his book "The First Day on the Somme" - if you check the appendices at the back of that book you'll find the complete British Army Order of Battle for 1st July 1916 and you'll see how many Pals Battalions there were in the front line that day.

You'll also see that many of those battalions took horrendous losses on that day - check out, for example, the fate of the 10th West Yorks, the 1st Newfoundlanders, the 4th Tyneside Scottish, and the 1st Tyneside Irish, all of whom took more than 600 casualties, THAT SINGLE DAY.

(And bear in mind that effective Battalion strength at that time would be about or just over 800 men. The 10th West Yorks lost 710 officers and men dead or wounded in a few hours.)

Now I am NOT denigrating McCrae's, but I AM saying that the idea of a "unique" sacrifice on their part is a wee bit OTT to say the least. Many other battalions were raised just in the way McCrae's was raised, and many other battalions suffered comparable and even worse casualties than they did.

And with respect, if the memorial is moved to the garden at Atholl Terrace, it is highly unlikely ever to be moved again, at least in the lifetimes of those who are interested and concerned in the matter, who are alive today. This is surely a strong argument for the move - re-locate it in the intersection at Haymarket and further developments in transport infrastructure may very well demand it be moved at some point again in the near future. The gardens are surely a good and appropriate place for the memorial, and for any ceremonies of remembrance for the years to come.

:agree:

In short...ram it

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Were they the ones giving the sacrifice, or were they sacrificed by incompetent generals for the benefit of heaven knows what?

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori? Aye, right. :cool2:

I fully appreciate the politics Doddie. Can you answer the question I put to LiverpoolHibs?

[ronaldo7]

I think that's his point :agree:

:agree:

[LiverpoolHibs]

I fully appreciate the politics Doddie. Can you answer the question I put to LiverpoolHibs?

I've replied already, but can I ask (just to be certain) what you were implying by that?

[--------]

I completely agree.

However, can you understand why the individuals enlisted? Can you see the reasoning behind their decision at the time, given the circumstances?

No, I can't. Can you?

I mentioned my kinsman Andrew Baillie. He died at Gretna. He didn't reach the Dardanelles - he didn't even have his own coffin. Very few of the Gretna dead had their own coffins, and those coffins that did come back to Leith were sealed. That's what happens when men die in a fire.

Andrew's elder brother, my great-uncle Johnny, volunteered later in 1915, I believe as one of the replacements in the re-formed 7th battalion RS which went out to the Somme in the late summer or early autumn of 1916. (We're not quite sure which battalion he was in - sometimes men were moved around without any great reason or sense at that time.)

He was invalided home with "gas paralysis" (aka shell-shock, but you couldn't call it that because the British Army executed men with shell-shock - much safer to call it gas paralysis) and did not speak for almost a year. His family were forbidden to visit him in hospital until he was well-recovered. Guess why?

Now I don't know why Johnny volunteered, especially after what happened to Andrew. I do not make any the less of his courage, nor do I denigrate what he did. I can't understand it, but I respect it, and I respect his memory.

But please spare us the bull**** about 'sacrifice'?

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

No, frankly I can't. And there were plenty (from the demographic I assume you are implying) who didn't both before and after the introduction of conscription.

We're not talking about conscription here though are we?

Can you comprehend why those INDIVIDUALS decided to enlist?

[--------]

I fully appreciate the politics Doddie. Can you answer the question I put to LiverpoolHibs?


It's not politics. It's just the ironic fact that my family has suffered more war casualties at the hands of the British Army than at the hands of the Germans in two wars, the Italians, and the Japanese.

Which gives one to think.... :cool2:

[LiverpoolHibs]

We're not talking about conscription here though are we?

Can you comprehend why those INDIVIDUALS decided to enlist?

:confused:

That's why I said, "both before and after conscription".

And I answered your second question in the post you have quoted!

[--------]

We're not talking about conscription here though are we?

Can you comprehend why those INDIVIDUALS decided to enlist?


Conscription came in after the Somme.

Apparently, for some unfathomably mysterious reason a lot of the men still at home weren't too keen on joining the Army after the Somme....

Can't think why. :cool2:

[Gerard]

IMHO the most suitable place for this monument is in a place where people can have a place for quiet reflection. As Haymarmet gets busier because of the Tram situation an ideal place is in a public garden as close to Haymarket as possible.

On the sunday that Armistics is observed the place where the monument is placed should for that day be closed and treated with the respect that it demands.

Gerard

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

No, I can't. Can you?

I mentioned my kinsman Andrew Baillie. He died at Gretna. He didn't reach the Dardanelles - he didn't even have his own coffin. Very few of the Gretna dead had their own coffins, and those coffins that did come back to Leith were sealed. That's what happens when men die in a fire.

Andrew's elder brother, my great-uncle Johnny, volunteered later in 1915, I believe as one of the replacements in the re-formed 7th battalion RS which went out to the Somme in the late summer or early autumn of 1916. (We're not quite sure which battalion he was in - sometimes men were moved around without any great reason or sense at that time.)

He was invalided home with "gas paralysis" (aka shell-shock, but you couldn't call it that because the British Army executed men with shell-shock - much safer to call it gas paralysis) and did not speak for almost a year. His family were forbidden to visit him in hospital until he was well-recovered. Guess why?

Now I don't know why Johnny volunteered, especially after what happened to Andrew. I do not make any the less of his courage, nor do I denigrate what he did. I can't understand it, but I respect it, and I respect his memory.

But please spare us the bull**** about 'sacrifice'?

Lets cut to the chase Doddie. 1939, You're Polish, you have a young family. Do you enlist?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Lets cut to the chase Doddie. 1939, You're Polish, youhave a young family. Do you enlist?

Oh dear. Drawing equivalence between the First and Second World Wars suggests a bit of desperation in your argument.

[--------]

Lets cut to the chase Doddie. 1939, You're Polish, youhave a young family. Do you enlist?


Not relevant. Poland operated conscription (National Service) throught the inter-war period. All Poles of military age were classed as reservists and were called up automatically before the outbreak of hostilities.

And if you're trying to put a white feather on me - forget it. :devil:

[ronaldo7]

Lets cut to the chase Doddie. 1939, You're Polish, you have a young family. Do you enlist?

Thought we were remembering the first world war?

[lapsedhibee]

Thought we were remembering the first world war?Thread's not about remembering WW1, though, is it? It's about 'If I insist on a precise location for a memorial I am a more caring and therefore more highly moral person than youse who don't so insist'. :devil:

[Bostonhibby]

I fully appreciate the politics Doddie. Can you answer the question I put to LiverpoolHibs?

I've read a wee bit about it and my personal view is that many of the brave soldier volunteers and officers were patriots and they believed that they were entering into a conflict to defend their country from imminent threat.

The recruitment campaigns of the day were along those lines and fiercely patriotic. Using the local / group theme where there was likely to be a cameraderie and sense of identity amongst the men already installed led to greater numbers being recruited more easily and quickly, few men wanted to stay behind when the vast majority from a village, team or other association had joined up. In theory and practice, the spirit and teamwork amongst these groups was likely to be higher.

When they they arrived in places like the Somme, Flanders and Ypres I suspect the type of warfare they were involved in for very very little territorial gain must have seemed miles away from the original ideal they joined up for.

We must remember them, and for me the (any) memorial will always be just that, a memorial, unless someone wants to adopt it for their own ends, I do not think it is too much of an effort for those of us who want to remember the brave fallen of a particular area to visit it in a slightly different location in the same area. I think any site in the right part of town that is likely to be more premanent that is appropriate should be used.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

:confused:

That's why I said, "both before and after conscription".

And I answered your second question in the post you have quoted!

To clarify. Why do you think individuals enlisted in the first world war? I appreciate this doesn't sit well with your personal viewpoint but can you provide empathetic reasoning as to why they might?

[LiverpoolHibs]

To clarify. Why do you think individuals enlisted in the first world war? I appreciate this doesn't sit well with your personal viewpoint but can you provide empathetic reasoning as to why they might?

Misguided patriotism?
The influence of a jingoistic press and the lies (upon lies) propagated by the establishment?
Money?
The community situation mentioned above?

There are innumerable possible reasons. I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at .

[Hibby D]

To clarify. Why do you think individuals enlisted in the first world war? I appreciate this doesn't sit well with your personal viewpoint but can you provide empathetic reasoning as to why they might?

Boston's done just that - maybe LH will answer with similar reasons. Me, I would have used one word - propaganda :agree:

[Dashing Bob S]

Keep the monument in storage until Hearts go bust then erect it on the Cala homes site at Tynecastle. That should keep everybody happy.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Boston's done just that - maybe LH will answer with similar reasons. Me, I would have used one word - propaganda :agree:

I just did! :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Thread's not about remembering WW1, though, is it? It's about 'If I insist on a precise location for a memorial I am a more caring and therefore more highly moral person than youse who don't so insist'. :devil:

You're correct.

We were discussing the position of the Memorial in Edinburgh for all Football teams and supporters in the Central belt, and including Fife.

Atholl Crescent for me thanks, In a garden of remembrance befitting the occassion.

[Bostonhibby]

I just did! :greengrin

:agree:

[Aubenas]

Politically I would be a lot closer to the men who fought in Dublin's GPO in 1916 than to the British Army in the Great War. Having said that I had a grandfather who was a Gunner at Paschendaele and an uncle who died of wounds after being captured fighting for the London Rifle Brigade at Gavrelle near Arras. I've visited the Somme and the Ypres salient and stood in many military cemeteries and the one thing that's for sure is that ultimately the cause and the right and wrong fade with time. They were young, they thought it right to make the sacrifice of leaving home and family and joining up (or accepting conscription) and they lost their lives. I think what's important is that we remember them and respect them - wherever the memorial stands.
FWIW I understand the Yams' attachment to the memory of McRae's Battalion, which though not just composed of Jambos will always be associated with them, and I think the memorial should be placed where they want it to be. I'm actually proud that so many Hibees are big enough to support the Yams in their commemoration. It's a helluva lot bigger than football rivalry, and I'm always pleased to see the Hibs wreath on the monument each November.

[jdships]

Thread's not about remembering WW1, though, is it? It's about 'If I insist on a precise location for a memorial I am a more caring and therefore more highly moral person than youse who don't so insist'. :devil:

I agree with that totally !
Does it really matter what/where the memorial is ?
We must never forget these men but the site of the memorial is surely irrelevant ?
I lost three relatives in WW1 (MN) amd four in WW2 ( MN) and I have to travel to London if I wish to see their memorial
Does that make my remembering them any more difficult. ?

:dunno:

[--------]

Boston's done just that - maybe LH will answer with similar reasons. Me, I would have used one word - propaganda :agree:


The world has changed so much in the last century I don't think a real understanding (empathetic or otherwise) of why so many went off so readily to the First World War is now possible.

In the early years of the 20th century the TA give young men the opportunity for companionship. It was a hobby. It gave them the chance of an annual holiday in camp. And it gave them the sense of serving their country. In return, they formed an Army Reserve that could be called up in times of need.

That wasn't a bad deal when the wars we were fighting were wars like the Boer War - even war service could be seen as a bit of an adventure. The Western Front in 1915-16 was a different story, however, and anyone who studies the campaigns of those years has to agree with Ludendorff when he said that the British Tommies were "lions led by donkeys".

The volunteers of the New Army seem to have signed up for patriotism, from a sense of duty, from a desire for adventure, and from peer pressure and a sense of guilt if they stayed at home.

But I know that war isn't an adventure - my father and uncles who had been in the Second War made that very clear to me when I was young. I have little sense of patriotism towards the UK. War isn't the sort of war nowadays that requires a large volunteer or conscript Army, Navy and Air Force. And I'd be very ready to declare myself a conscientious objector if I were military age and some fool in Downing Street tried to get me involved in the sort of illegal adventuring we've seen over the past few years in the Middle East.

TBH, I think there was an atmosphere of something very close to hysteria in this country during the early years of the Great War.

[gringojoe]

To clarify. Why do you think individuals enlisted in the first world war? I appreciate this doesn't sit well with your personal viewpoint but can you provide empathetic reasoning as to why they might?

My grandfather enlisted in 1914, 9th Cameron Highlanders, as his wee brother had joined up and they all thought it would be over by Christmas.
As for the War Memorial as long as it's treated with respect and people can visit it easily it shouldn't matter where it sited.
Anybody know what happened to the S&N memorial when they knocked down the brewery to build the Scottish Parliament?

[Gerard]

The Great War was a war that saw millions of men being killed and millions left with dreadful injuries. The monument to these men should be placed in an area that gives dignity to that fact.

When it was placed in Haymarket it was a lot quieter than it is today. The building of the trams means it has to be moved. I am aware that it has a deep meaning for Hearts and Hearts fans.


Hibs and Hearts are united in respect for the fallen. I hope that a solution can be found to this problem.
Gerard

[LiverpoolHibs]

Politically I would be a lot closer to the men who fought in Dublin's GPO in 1916 than to the British Army in the Great War. Having said that I had a grandfather who was a Gunner at Paschendaele and an uncle who died of wounds after being captured fighting for the London Rifle Brigade at Gavrelle near Arras. I've visited the Somme and the Ypres salient and stood in many military cemeteries and the one thing that's for sure is that ultimately the cause and the right and wrong fade with time. They were young, they thought it right to make the sacrifice of leaving home and family and joining up (or accepting conscription) and they lost their lives. I think what's important is that we remember them and respect them - wherever the memorial stands.
FWIW I understand the Yams' attachment to the memory of McRae's Battalion, which though not just composed of Jambos will always be associated with them, and I think the memorial should be placed where they want it to be. I'm actually proud that so many Hibees are big enough to support the Yams in their commemoration. It's a helluva lot bigger than football rivalry, and I'm always pleased to see the Hibs wreath on the monument each November.

'We Serve Neither King Nor Kaiser.'

If only that had have been more widely adopted.

[ronaldo7]

My grandfather enlisted in 1914, 9th Cameron Highlanders, as his wee brother had joined up and they all thought it would be over by Christmas.
As for the War Memorial as long as it's treated with respect and people can visit it easily it shouldn't matter where it sited.
Anybody know what happened to the S&N memorial when they knocked down the brewery to build the Scottish Parliament?

The one from Horse Wynd, and the one from Fountainbridge are both held by the Brewery. They were looking to resite them after the Fountain brewery North site closure, but the South site closed only 2 years later. It would be nice to hear how they propose to erect the Plaques and Monuments in the future.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Not relevant. Poland operated conscription (National Service) throught the inter-war period. All Poles of military age were classed as reservists and were called up automatically before the outbreak of hostilities.

And if you're trying to put a white feather on me - forget it. :devil:

That has not answered my question though has it. I Didn't enquire as to what Polands stance was on conscription. The question was, if you were Polish, and you were aware through the press and media that an invasion was imminent, you have a young family, would you enlist?

The Haymarket memorial is dedicated to those who VOLUNTEERED to serve in the first world war (and any war for that matter LiverpoolHibs).

Can you find it in your heart to recognise those individuals Sacrifice?

[Kato]

Misguided patriotism?
The influence of a jingoistic press and the lies (upon lies) propagated by the establishment?
Money?
The community situation mentioned above?

There are innumerable possible reasons. I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at .


According to the documentary about the McRae's shown a couple of years ago the bit in bold above was the reason the Hearts team joined up. The Scotsman printed a letter from some Morningside biddy who was accusing them of cowardice accompanied by a drawing of the Hearts badge and a few white feathers, So the documentary said anyway.

That's the only problem I have with Memorials is when they are used in turn as Jingooistic tools, jingoism being what led a lot of those poor men to needless deaths.

I had to explain to one Hearts fan that the Hibernian Memorial to those connected to us who fell in WW1 is in St Patrick's in the Cowgate. The reason i had to explain being he was of the opinion that Hibby's, at the time and now, were/are "all Fenians" and that Hearts had shown the only true bravery at the time. Don't like Jingoism one bit - then or now.

[LiverpoolHibs]

That has not answered my question though has it. I Didn't enquire as to what Polands stance was on conscription. The question was, if you were Polish, and you were aware through the press and media that an invasion was imminent, you have a young family, would you enlist?

The Haymarket memorial is dedicated to those who VOLUNTEERED to serve in the first world war (and any war for that matter LiverpoolHibs).

Can you find it in your heart to recognise those individuals Sacrifice?

You are picking and choosing (and twisting) what you're replying to now. I've answered your questions, given full explanations and offered different opinions - the diference between the First and Second World Wars, for instance.

[MSK]

Sorry folks ..its beginning to turn into a slanging match ..i dont know ..its a memorial ..its getting moved ..its not getting moved ...at the end of the day its got nowt to do wi football, its a memorial to the brave folk who fought in a war ...

Let them rest in peace ...

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

You are picking and choosing (and twisting) what you're replying to now. I've answered your questions, given full explanations and offered different opinions - the diference between the First and Second World Wars, for instance.

Keep up Liverpool, That response was to another poster.

Concentrate on my original arguement. We are discussing men in the early 20th century who decided that their existance, and their families, was in jeopardy and decided to respond. Do you have a family?. Do you Doddie? What would you do in their situation? Give me a winning arguement. We all know that war is wrong. We don't need condascending *******s to tell us war is wrong - we know that. What would YOU do in those circumstances?

[Gerard]

Sorry folks ..its beginning to turn into a slanging match ..i dont know ..its a memorial ..its getting moved ..its not getting moved ...at the end of the day its got nowt to do wi football, its a memorial to the brave folk who fought in a war ...

Let them rest in peace ...

So mote it be
G

[MSK]

So mote it be
GYou can ***** off wi the fancy dan masonic stuff tae !!

[LiverpoolHibs]

Keep up Liverpool, That response was to another poster.

Yes, but it mentioned me; as opposed to you actually responding to any my points.


Concentrate on my original arguement. We are discussing men in the early 20th century who decided that their existance, and their families, was in jeopardy and decided to respond. Do you have a family?. Do you Doddie? What would you do in their situation? Give me a winning arguement. We all know that war is wrong. We don't need condascending *******s to tell us war is wrong - we know that. What would YOU do in those circumstances?

Calm down.

It would depend on the circumstances. I'd like to think that I would have volunteered to serve in the Second World War and, indeed, the Spanish Civil War. But that's just supposition.

Continuing with similar conjecture (and without the benifit of hindsight), I'd like to think that I would rationally decide - as many did - that my existence and family were in no way in jeopardy and there was no need for me to 'respond'.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

You are picking and choosing (and twisting) what you're replying to now. I've answered your questions, given full explanations and offered different opinions - the diference between the First and Second World Wars, for instance.

:greengrin Do a quick find on Emotional Intelligence LiverpoolHibs, it's the next step up the corporate ladder for you.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Yes, but it mentioned me; as opposed to you actually responding to any my points.



Calm down.

It would depend on the circumstances. I'd like to think that I would have volunteered to serve in the Second World War and, indeed, the Spanish Civil War. But that's just supposition.

Continuing with similar conjecture (and without the benifit of hindsight), I'd like to think that I would rationally decide - as many did - that my existence and family were in no way in jeopardy and there was no need for me to 'respond'.


Ahright! Ahright!

You would have responded in the 2nd world war and the Spanish Civil war.

But not in the 1st world war?

What are the specifics behind that?

[LiverpoolHibs]

:greengrin Do a quick find on Emotional Intelligence LiverpoolHibs, it's the next step up the corporate ladder for you.

I have no idea what that means.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Ahright! Ahright!

You would have responded in the 2nd world war and the Spanish Civil war.

But not in the 1st world war?

What are the specifics behind that?

Again you're picking and choosing what you reply to.

Do you really need the difference between the two World Wars explained?

N.B. In fact, I've already partially done that in the post you've quoted.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

I have no idea what that means.


Hmmmm!

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Again you're picking and choosing what you reply to.

Do you really need the difference between the two World Wars explained?

N.B. In fact, I've already partially done that in the post you've quoted.

Put simply.

With family, what would you do if your existance was endangered.

We could debate, after the fact, whether in fact your existance was in fact endangered maybe it was, Maybe it wasn't. It might turn out that your existance LOOKED as if if it was endangered, but it turned out it wasn't. But then again, given the hindsight of 90 years it was in fact endangered. what would you do? Would you enlist?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Put simply.

With family, what would you do if your existance was endangered.

We could debate, after the fact, whether in fact your existance was in fact endangered maybe it was, Maybe it wasn't. It might turn out that your existance LOOKED as if if it was endangered, but it turned out it wasn't. But then again, given the hindsight of 90 years it was in fact endangered. what would you do? Would you enlist?

Christ, I've only answered this about three times.

As I said, ooooh, about three hours ago on this thread and also hence - no I would not have done.

Numerous individuals saw through the lies and propaganda; refused to enlist and refused to be conscripted. I'd like to think I would have been one of their brave number.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Christ, I've only answered this about three times.

As I said, ooooh, about three hours ago on this thread and also hence - no I would not have done.

Numerous individuals saw through the lies and propaganda; refused to enlist and refused to be conscripted. I'd like to think I would have been one of their brave number.

Do you have a young family LiverpoolHibs?

[Gerard]

Christ, I've only answered this about three times.

As I said, ooooh, about three hours ago on this thread and also hence - no I would not have done.

Numerous individuals saw through the lies and propaganda; refused to enlist and refused to be conscripted. I'd like to think I would have been one of their brave number.

I was not aware that there were numerous people who refused to enlist, can you provide a source for this statement please.
thanks
Gerard

[LiverpoolHibs]

Do you have a young family LiverpoolHibs?

Nope. I'm only 22!

[LiverpoolHibs]

I was not aware that there were numerous people who refused to enlist, can you provide a source for this statement please.
thanks
Gerard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objection#Before_1916

Wikipedia will do for this late hour. :wink:

[Gerard]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objection#Before_1916

Wikipedia will do for this late hour. :wink:

Thanks
G

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Nope. I'm only 22!

Using Emotional Intelligence, transport yourself forward 10 years. You are a 32 year old Pole. 2 beautiful young children. The Nazis have invaded. What would you do INDIVIDUALLY? Weigh up the issues.







Doddie???

[LiverpoolHibs]

Using Emotional Intelligence, transport yourself forward 10 years. You are a 32 year old Pole. 2 beautiful young children. The Nazis have invaded. What would you do INDIVIDUALLY? Weigh up the issues.







Doddie???

Jesus wept. You're doing it again!

There is no equivalence between the First World War and the Second World War.

[Gerard]

Using Emotional Intelligence, transport yourself forward 10 years. You are a 32 year old Pole. 2 beautiful young children. The Nazis have invaded. What would you do INDIVIDUALLY? Weigh up the issues.







Doddie???


Tough question as Both Germany and Russia invaded Poland at the same time. I would probably have fought the Germans as a free Pole and hoped that in time Russia would have also been kicked out of my country.
G

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Jesus wept. You're doing it again!

There is no equivalence between the First World War and the Second World War.


Words.

Explain to your audience how you would respond to the adverse situation in which YOUR family was in jeopardy?






This debate centres around those few who decided to oppose the aggresive force.

They didn't have the luxury of hindsight that you are trading on. They responded to the issue of the day.

They are the reason you are afforded the possibility of expressing your opinion.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Tough question as Both Germany and Russia invaded Poland at the same time. I would probably have fought the Germans as a free Pole and hoped that in time Russia would have also been kicked out of my country.
G

Either way you'd have have answered the call to arms?

[Gerard]

Either way you'd have have answered the call to arms?

Yes, I would have been prepared to answer that call.
G

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Yes, I would have been prepared to answer that call.
G

:agree:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Words.

Explain to your audience how you would respond to the adverse situation in which YOUR family was in jeopardy?

This debate centres around those few who decided to oppose the aggresive force.

They didn't have the luxury of hindsight that you are trading on. They responded to the issue of the day.

They are the reason you are afforded the possibility of expressing your opinion.

You are trading on an attempt to compare the German aggression leading up to the First World War with the Nazi aggression leading up to the Second World War. Such a comparison is riddled with ignorance and misinformation. Had I been in my mid-thirties with a young family in 1914 - which you are, for some unkown reason, so very keen to have me - I would like to think (as I have said already) I would have realised there was NO threat to me or my family.

How is the tragic waste of the First World War a reason that I am 'afforded the possibility to express my opinion'? (If you will actually bring yourself to answer any points I make).

N.B. You are confusing supposition with hindsight to an unforgivable extent.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Either way you'd have have answered the call to arms?


Yes, I would have been prepared to answer that call.
G


:agree:

I would have happily fought in the Second World War. However, this is utterly irrelevant to the entire gist of this thread!

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

You are trading on an attempt to compare the German aggression leading up to the First World War with the Nazi aggression leading up to the Second World War. Such a comparison is riddled with ignorance and misinformation. Had I been in my mid-thirties with a young family in 1914 - which you are, for some unkown reason, so very keen to have me - I would like to think (as I have said already) I would have realised there was NO threat to me or my family.

How is the tragic waste of the First World War a reason that I am 'afforded the possibility to express my opinion'? (If you will actually bring yourself to answer any points I make).

N.B. You are confusing supposition with hindsight to an unforgivable extent.

At some point in your journey you will understand that the ability to talk is not the be all and end all.

The further you press this will expose your limitations. Consider both sides of the arguement.

[LiverpoolHibs]

At some point in your journey you will understand that the ability to talk is not the be all and end all.

The further you press this will expose your limitations. Consider both sides of the arguement.

Or, I dunno, you could try to expose them with an informed and cogent argument. That's generally what people try to do in rational debates.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

I would have happily fought in the Second World War. However, this is utterly irrelevant to the entire gist of this thread!


Why would you have fought in the 2nd world war, but not in the 1st World war LiverpoolHibs?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Why would you have fought in the 2nd world war, but not in the 1st World war LiverpoolHibs?

I'm about to go to me bed so apologies if this isn't as detailed as it probably needs to be, I may come back to it tomorrow.

Firstly, as I have said numerous times. The First World War, as opposed to the Second, would have posed no threat to me and mine.

Taking the war as Britain vs. Germany (which I think is excusable given the circumstances), it was a purely economic war between two equally imperialist nations. Worker killing worker on the 'say so' of government and bosses.

I think you'll see that this is just a bit different to the Second World War. As I say I might come back to this if needs must.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Why would you have fought in the 2nd world war, but not in the 1st World war LiverpoolHibs?

While you're agonising over this liverpoolHibs can
I suggest that this shouldn't even concern a 22 yr old at 02:30 on a Saturday night?

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

While you're agonising over this liverpoolHibs can
I suggest that this shouldn't even concern a 22 yr old at 02:30 on a Saturday night?

I guess it does.



Deliberate over it as you must. A winning arguement is imperitive. It expediates your existence. Achiveve excellence. good to great. influencing, Collaborate for success. Youv've got it Liverpool. Calm Down! Calm Down.

:wink:

[LiverpoolHibs]

While you're agonising over this liverpoolHibs can
I suggest that this shouldn't even concern a 22 yr old at 02:30 on a Saturday night?


I guess it does.



Deliberate over it as you must. A winning arguement is imperitive. It expediates your existence. Achiveve excellence. good to great. influencing, Collaborate for success. Youv've got it Liverpool. Calm Down! Calm Down.

:wink:

Ah yes, if you can't argue attempts to ridicule and demean are always a good bet!

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Ah yes, if you can't argue attempts to ridicule and demean are always a good bet!

Argue LiverpoolHibs. Demean all you can. I wont get upset.


Argue about what you would do when the agressor comes to town and you have a family to defend. Tell me about how you will debate with that agressor, tell me how you will resolve that situation using emotional intelligence? Reason with that agressor, tell him how unreasonable he is. And how he shouldnt behave in such a beastly manner. Tell the Nazi/serb/croat/russian/ugandan/Iranian/iraqi/Chinese/israeli/and****idontknowwhoelse that they are the baddies. Who tells them that they are the baddies? someone else?

Why not you?

Why deride those that have the balls to stand up to those agressors? They didnt have the hindsight you freely spout. They were men with young families. I empathise with that. Why can't you?

[--------]

Keep up Liverpool, That response was to another poster.

Concentrate on my original arguement. We are discussing men in the early 20th century who decided that their existance, and their families, was in jeopardy and decided to respond. Do you have a family?. Do you Doddie? What would you do in their situation? Give me a winning arguement. We all know that war is wrong. We don't need condascending *******s to tell us war is wrong - we know that. What would YOU do in those circumstances?


Using Emotional Intelligence, transport yourself forward 10 years. You are a 32 year old Pole. 2 beautiful young children. The Nazis have invaded. What would you do INDIVIDUALLY? Weigh up the issues.

Doddie???


Bluntly, it's none of your business what I would or would not have done.

So you know what you can do. :devil:


And if you're suggesting that I can't or don't sympathise with the soldiers of the Great War, you either HAVEN'T read what I've already posted, or you've read it but totally failed to understand it.


And you haven't yet asked me what I would do if I found a German soldier attempting to violate my sister? :cool2:

[GhostofBolivar]

The world has changed so much in the last century I don't think a real understanding (empathetic or otherwise) of why so many went off so readily to the First World War is now possible.

In the early years of the 20th century the TA give young men the opportunity for companionship. It was a hobby. It gave them the chance of an annual holiday in camp. And it gave them the sense of serving their country. In return, they formed an Army Reserve that could be called up in times of need.

That wasn't a bad deal when the wars we were fighting were wars like the Boer War - even war service could be seen as a bit of an adventure. The Western Front in 1915-16 was a different story, however, and anyone who studies the campaigns of those years has to agree with Ludendorff when he said that the British Tommies were "lions led by donkeys".

The volunteers of the New Army seem to have signed up for patriotism, from a sense of duty, from a desire for adventure, and from peer pressure and a sense of guilt if they stayed at home.

But I know that war isn't an adventure - my father and uncles who had been in the Second War made that very clear to me when I was young. I have little sense of patriotism towards the UK. War isn't the sort of war nowadays that requires a large volunteer or conscript Army, Navy and Air Force. And I'd be very ready to declare myself a conscientious objector if I were military age and some fool in Downing Street tried to get me involved in the sort of illegal adventuring we've seen over the past few years in the Middle East.

TBH, I think there was an atmosphere of something very close to hysteria in this country during the early years of the Great War.

Ludendorff never said that. Alan Clark made it up.

[Mulvaney]

Ludendorff never said that. Alan Clark made it up.


As " anyone who studies the campaigns of those years" should know :greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

Argue LiverpoolHibs. Demean all you can. I wont get upset.

My point was, you couldn't argue so you decided to try and take the piss instead.


Argue about what you would do when the agressor comes to town and you have a family to defend.

In the instance we have been discussing in this thread, the agressor didn't 'come to town'. This is one of the many points you seem unable to grasp. It's the equivalent of me clamouring at the bit to go and take on Russia in the wake of their invasion of North Ossetia.


Tell me about how you will debate with that agressor, tell me how you will resolve that situation using emotional intelligence? Reason with that agressor, tell him how unreasonable he is. And how he shouldnt behave in such a beastly manner. Tell the Nazi/serb/croat/russian/ugandan/Iranian/iraqi/Chinese/israeli/and****idontknowwhoelse that they are the baddies. Who tells them that they are the baddies? someone else?

Why not you?

This is just a peculiar stream of consciousness rant, utterly bereft of any logical argument.


Why deride those that have the balls to stand up to those agressors? They didnt have the hindsight you freely spout. They were men with young families. I empathise with that. Why can't you?

I don't think any of my posts on this thread have been in any way derisory.

Again, you're confusing supposition with hindsight. As I've said before many, many people from disparate traditions opposed the First World War, refused to enlist and spurned conscription.

[--------]

Ludendorff never said that. Alan Clark made it up.


Well, there you are. You learn something new every day.

I'm now better informed than I was this afternoon, which is a gain. Thank you. :agree:

However, whether he said it or not, it IS true that the British infantry in the First World War was generally of a very high quality. They wouldn't have endured the Western Front and done the things they did if they hadn't been.

What isn't true is that somehow, by dying in thousands "for their country", every last Tommy named on every war memorial qualifies for instant beatification.

Inscriptions like "To The Glorious Dead" on cenotaphs up and down the country rather beg the question as to where exactly the glory lies in which the dead allegedly bask. There are few die well that die in a battle, and not often in their own quarrel.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

My point was, you couldn't argue so you decided to try and take the piss instead.



In the instance we have been discussing in this thread, the agressor didn't 'come to town'. This is one of the many points you seem unable to grasp. It's the equivalent of me clamouring at the bit to go and take on Russia in the wake of their invasion of North Ossetia.



This is just a peculiar stream of consciousness rant, utterly bereft of any logical argument.



I don't think any of my posts on this thread have been in any way derisory.

Again, you're confusing supposition with hindsight. As I've said before many, many people from disparate traditions opposed the First World War, refused to enlist and spurned conscription.

:trumpet:

To put it simply. The young men’s situation we are debating. They were not privy to the information you flaunt so authoritatively in your masked foppish manner.
The aggressor was considerably closer than North Ossetia.

They reacted to the information of the day. Emotional intelligence – put yourself in their place.

What would you do if the aggressor was amassed in Calais tonight? Would you gather your cohorts and discuss the response? Agree the terms of surrender and then convince yourself that was the correct thing to do?

Come on LiverpoolHibs, you have something to lose. In these EXACT CIRCUMSTANCES what will you do? Give me the articulate argument that will desist the aggressor from violating your family.

Allow the monument to be sited in its original position. It's not such a big issue as you thought it was originally was. Is it?

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Well, there you are. You learn something new every day.

I'm now better informed than I was this afternoon, which is a gain. Thank you. :agree:

However, whether he said it or not, it IS true that the British infantry in the First World War was generally of a very high quality. They wouldn't have endured the Western Front and done the things they did if they hadn't been.

What isn't true is that somehow, by dying in thousands "for their country", every last Tommy named on every war memorial qualifies for instant beatification.

Inscriptions like "To The Glorious Dead" on cenotaphs up and down the country rather beg the question as to where exactly the glory lies in which the dead allegedly bask. There are few die well that die in a battle, and not often in their own quarrel.

Doddie. For all the inappropriate nomenclature you have witnessed on the cenotaphs you have visited can you understand their individual reasoning?

Can you understand their response? What would you have said on a popular forum of the day? How would you convince them not to enlist and not envolve themselves in the horrid acts of self preservance?

[LiverpoolHibs]

:trumpet:

To put it simply. The young men’s situation we are debating. They were not privy to the information you flaunt so authoritatively in your masked foppish manner.
The aggressor was considerably closer than North Ossetia.

They reacted to the information of the day. Emotional intelligence – put yourself in their place.

What would you do if the aggressor was amassed in Calais tonight? Would you gather your cohorts and discuss the response? Agree the terms of surrender and then convince yourself that was the correct thing to do?

Come on LiverpoolHibs, you have something to lose. In these EXACT CIRCUMSTANCES what will you do? Give me the articulate argument that will desist the aggressor from violating your family.

Allow the monument to be sited in its original position. It's not such a big issue as you thought it was originally was. Is it?

I'm unsure what a 'masked foppish manner' is exactly. That's quite a turn of phrase...

At what point during the First World War were German/Central Powers troops massed at Calais? You can't just make things up to suit your (ridicluous) argument.

You're just going through the same questions again and again, I've answered them a number of times. Out of interest, do you feel the same about the Iraq war or is proximity the deciding factor for you in all conflicts?

N.B. If you'd read the thread properly, you'd have seen that I have said that I signed the petition.

[--------]

Doddie. For all the inappropriate nomenclature you have witnessed on the cenotaphs you have visited can you understand their individual reasoning?

Can you understand their response? What would you have said on a popular forum of the day? How would you convince them not to enlist and not envolve themselves in the horrid acts of self preservance?



What on earth are "horrid acts of self-preservance"? :cool2:

I have to speak at Remembrance ceremonies every November. Somehow I have to find something to say that won't offend the old soldiers standing with me, but what I say still has to make some sense and be reasonably true to my own beliefs. I can't even begin to do that without thinking long and hard about what those memorials stand for.

So between that and the sad history of my father's family in the Great War, and the experience and legacy of my family and friends who fought in the Second World War - no, I do not fully understand why young men of a time two generations before my birth did the things they did. I honour and deeply respect their courage and their memory, but I refuse to line up with the bull****ters, of whom I strongly suspect you to be one of the chiefs.

[barcahibs]

Apologies for posting so late on this thread we've stumbled on what is rapidly becoming my pet subject so apologies for the essay this is almost certainly a discussion for another thread - this is going to come over terribly but I'm tired and drunk so :na na: :greengrin (all the following just IMO of course - and the opinions of the historians I've nicked it all from!)

There seems to be a general tendency to run down WW1, maybe because so few of its veterans are still with us and the memories of WW2 are so much fresher in everyones minds. WW2 is seen as the 'good' war, the evils of the Nazis make everything else pale into insignificance. The image of WW1 that seems to have prevailed is that of lions led by donkeys, evil British imperialism, nationalism and the pointless sacrifice of a generation of 'pals'. It wasn't always that way.

The actual issues of WW1 were in fact very similar to those of WW2, Hitler was not the first German (or Austrian) to come up with the concept of lebensraum in the East, or the racial superiority of the German people.
WW1 was launched by the Germans with the intention of establishing their dream of mitteleuropa, they intended to conquer and annex Belgium in the West whilst binding France into an indissoluble 'customs union' which would see Germany in full control over that nations industry and foreign trade.
The treaty of Brest Litovsk with Russia shows their territorial ambitions in the East where the peasants of Poland and Ukraine were to be kept in perpetual bondage to provide the food and manpower to fuel the new German Empire.
The German army in WW1 behaved in many ways every bit as execrably towards civilians as they did in WW2, many, especially in Belgium, were shot out of hand and thousands were sent back to Germany to serve as forced labour, great masses of livestock and industrial equipment and private property was looted and sent home devestating economies and livelihoods.

This was also as much of a war of ideals and ideologies WW2 was. On one side we have liberal democracy and constitutionalism - on the other we have militarism and authoritarianism.

The Western allies in WW1 were liberal democracies, as democratic and forward thinking as anywhere else in the World at that time. They laid the foundations of the values and freedoms that many of us cherish today. We tend to look back nowadays and see Britain of the time as a place ruled by and for the benefit of a rich, aristocratic elite (much like today then :greengrin). In many ways, of course, it was, but it was also just about as advanced a democracy as it was possible to be at that time and it was moving in the right directions just about as fast as it possibly could. We've had almost one hundred years to further develop our political system and values, they bought us the time to do so.

The Central Powers on the other hand were absolute monarchies, they were ruled in the end by autocratic monarchs who were above the law and who conducted the business of government as they saw fit without any recourse to the will of the people. In Germany's case we add to the mix a culture of militarism - The German army was the final arbiter in German political life and had the final say in matters of foreign policy - in 1914 the army had the sole power to decide wether or not Germany would go to war - the politicians were informed of the decision after it had been made. Germany of 1914 was NOT the Germany of today.

The people of 1914 weren't as stupid and sheep-like as many nowadays would have you believe, they were very aware of what they were fighting for and in the immediate aftermath of the war were very proud of what they had achieved, they saw this as a war for civilization and freedom, a battle for the minds and souls of men that would set the course of the World for years to come, would we have democracy or authoritarianism, the will of the people or the rule of the gun.

Today with 100 years of hindsight we might s****** at their values, ideals and concept of democracy, we can point to the injustices of their society and their empires, but their lives and beliefs were every bit as real and important to them as ours today are to us and they considered them something worth fighting for.
It is not the fault of those who died that their victory in war would later be thrown away by the politicians in peace (and thats a story that should be pretty familiar to us all today).

Back on topic (those sad enough to have made it this far will be glad to hear! :greengrin)

FWIW having thought it over I don't think I like the idea of the memorial being moved but never having been to it I don't think I have the right to complain - provided we are talking 'moved' and not 'discarded'.

And finally (at last!) just a word on the football rivalry thats crept into this.

'Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives... you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets where they lie side by side here in this country of ours... You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries, wipe away your tears. Your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. Having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.'
Kemal Attaturk after Gallipoli

To me it puts the football into perspective. (though I still hate the hertz :greengrin)

[Phil D. Rolls]

Just like to say to the transient population who have been "improving" our city for the last six or seven years - there are people who have lived in this city all of their lives, just as their parents and grandparents did.

The disrespect being shown for this city's history by property developers, white settlers and our beloved cooncil, has never been more blatant than the complete ignorance they are showing on this subject.

Of course if the people of this city had any balls they wouldn't be seen as such an easy touch. But then that's another story.

I've had my tea.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

What on earth are "horrid acts of self-preservance"? :cool2:

I have to speak at Remembrance ceremonies every November. Somehow I have to find something to say that won't offend the old soldiers standing with me, but what I say still has to make some sense and be reasonably true to my own beliefs. I can't even begin to do that without thinking long and hard about what those memorials stand for.

So between that and the sad history of my father's family in the Great War, and the experience and legacy of my family and friends who fought in the Second World War - no, I do not fully understand why young men of a time two generations before my birth did the things they did. I honour and deeply respect their courage and their memory, but I refuse to line up with the bull****ters, of whom I strongly suspect you to be one of the chiefs.

I suspect you wouldn't be so bold in such an exchange other than behind your keyboard doddie.

I think this is why you struggle to understand the arguement those of us who appreciate the ordinary man volunteering at that time, not appreciating the politics involved, having the urge to defend his family given the information/propoganda of the day. They considered that the conflict may progress beyond France. Would it have stopped there Doddie?
Christ! theres no point pursuing this with you, your mind is so obviously closed to this.

I suggest you refrain from speaking at remebrance ceremonies until such time that you can reconcile your precious sensibilities against the common man you seek to shepherd.