Georgia at war with Russia [Archive]

09-08-2008, 07:16 PM

LiverpoolHibs

09-08-2008, 07:52 PM

Don't know all the information regarding this conflict but I see the Georgian President has declared a state of war on Russia, brave move considering the respective size of both countries involved, he has also asked the west for help.

All I know is that the last think we need at the moment is to be involved in another conflict of any form but I see this situation getting worse.

As I understand it the 'declaration of war' is just a term allowing for the implementation of martial law rather than implying attacks on Russia. If the fighting spreads anywhere it will be to Abkhazia (it looks like it has already) - another dissident Georgian area. I think it's fairly safe to assume 'we' won't be getting involved.

Future17

09-08-2008, 09:04 PM

As I understand it the 'declaration of war' is just a term allowing for the implementation of martial law rather than implying attacks on Russia. If the fighting spreads anywhere it will be to Abkhazia (it looks like it has already) - another dissident Georgian area. I think it's fairly safe to assume 'we' won't be getting involved.

:agree:
Having said that, Georgia is likely to pull it's 2000 troops out of Iraq to support their conflict in South Ossetia and Abkhazia....which is likely to mean "we" will be pressured to make up the numbers.

wpj

09-08-2008, 09:27 PM

If they want the west to help they need to pretend they got shed loads of oil. Seriously tho this one will run and run and i think it'll be a Balkanesque tragedy on our doorstep!!

LiverpoolHibs

09-08-2008, 09:32 PM

:agree:
Having said that, Georgia is likely to pull it's 2000 troops out of Iraq to support their conflict in South Ossetia and Abkhazia....which is likely to mean "we" will be pressured to make up the numbers.

Ah, I'd not even thought of that.

It seems that atrocities have now been commited on both sides. The use of North Ossetia as an outpost for what was essentially genocide in Chechnya gives some idea of what Russia are trying to do.

David Milliband (clearly not realising the hypocrisy dripping off his every word) has said: "[the fighting risked incurring] civilian losses on a large scale".

wpj

09-08-2008, 09:38 PM

Ah, I'd not even thought of that.

It seems that atrocities have now been commited on both sides. The use of North Ossetia as an outpost for what was essentially genocide in Chechnya gives some idea of what Russia are trying to do.

David Milliband (clearly not realising the hypocrisy dripping off his every word) has said: "[the fighting risked incurring] civilian losses on a large scale".

Hypocrisy indeed, like bush banging on about civil liberties in China....i was fuming!! Guantamino Bay ya radge!!! :brickwall
Self serving tossers the lot of em

LiverpoolHibs

10-08-2008, 10:06 AM

Incidentally, it's difficult to imagine the initial Georgian assault was carried out without the knowledge, or indeed backing, of the U.S.

bingo70

10-08-2008, 12:11 PM

Incidentally, it's difficult to imagine the initial Georgian assault was carried out without the knowledge, or indeed backing, of the U.S.

why :dunno:

(not a loaded question by the way, don't know anything about this kind of thing so don't know how this could be linked to the U.S?)

Frazerbob

10-08-2008, 12:16 PM

Frazerbob

10-08-2008, 12:17 PM

why :dunno:

(not a loaded question by the way, don't know anything about this kind of thing so don't know how this could be linked to the U.S?)

See my comment above re the oil pipe-line. The US have previously gauranteed Georgia's security.

-Jonesy-

10-08-2008, 01:02 PM

See my comment above re the oil pipe-line. The US have previously gauranteed Georgia's security.

Georgia pulled out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552012.stm

LiverpoolHibs

10-08-2008, 01:31 PM

why :dunno:

(not a loaded question by the way, don't know anything about this kind of thing so don't know how this could be linked to the U.S?)

The Georgian President, Saakashvili, is incredibly favourable to the U.S. and N.A.T.O - see the previously mentioned Georgian troops in Iraq, neo-liberal economic policies and heavy involvement of American companies such as Haliburton in the Georgian economy.

The U.S. has effectively bank-rolled the Georgian military under Saakashvili with a view to eventual N.A.T.O. membership (that alone put them on a collision course with Russia). Bearing this in mind, I find it hard to believe that Georgia would have acted without consultation and a thumbs-up (whatever that may mean) from the U.S./N.A.T.O.

LiverpoolHibs

10-08-2008, 01:35 PM

Quite scary that not 10 months ago I visited Gori (birth place of Stalin) and had lunch about 10k from the South Ossetia border. A beautiful part of the World!

Does it not srike you as a bit of a coincidence that the main oil pipe-line from Baku to Europe runs through Georgia, narrowly avoiding the need to go through Russia and Iran?

See my comment above re the oil pipe-line. The US have previously gauranteed Georgia's security.

:agree:

Even more coincidentally, it runs very close to S. Ossetia and Abkhazia

Future17

10-08-2008, 04:45 PM

Incidentally, it's difficult to imagine the initial Georgian assault was carried out without the knowledge, or indeed backing, of the U.S.

Also can't help thinking that the U.S. will have had a certain amount of influence in Ukraine's statement today that it reserves the right to refuse permission for Russian naval vessels to return to bases within Ukranian territory.

Pretty brave from a nation that is also likely to be banking on it's friendship with western nations. Either that or they are seeking some iron-clad assurances from Russia that they won't be the next Georgia.

hibsdaft

11-08-2008, 09:22 AM

amazing to see how weak Russia has become, it used to be Russia vs USA, now just one single american state fancy their chances taking them on.

Future17

11-08-2008, 04:05 PM

Russians have now advanced into West Georgia beyond the "border" of Abkhazia. Looks like a full-scale invasion is on the cards. :bitchy:

Sergio sledge

12-08-2008, 03:30 PM

Interesting that no-one has mentioned the hypocrasy on Russia's part, they have continuously stressed that Chechnya was an internal matter, and no other country should get involved, yet when an "internal matter" happens in Georgia they steam in all guns blazing to help out.

Funny that they've been handing out Russian passports willy nilly to South Ossetians recently so that they can say they are "defending their citizens."

Russia are trying to flex their muscles and claim back some of the area's they lost in the 90's.

Whether or not the USA are backing Georgia or not is a moot point IMHO, Russia are clearly being hypocritical here, just like the USA and UK have been.

amazing to see how weak Russia has become, it used to be Russia vs USA, now just one single american state fancy their chances taking them on.

:tee hee: When my wife saw that we were playing Georgia in the recent Euro Qualifiers she said "They've all got awfully funny sounding names for Americans......"

-Jonesy-

12-08-2008, 03:35 PM

They Think it's all Over (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7555858.stm#map)

Hibrandenburg

13-08-2008, 11:51 AM

They Think it's all Over (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7555858.stm#map)

You've not heard the last of this believe me.

Step 2 will involve the respective paramilitaries forcing Georgia to break their truce.

Future17

13-08-2008, 01:33 PM

You've not heard the last of this believe me.

Step 2 will involve the respective paramilitaries forcing Georgia to break their truce.

:agree:

Georgian resolve already being tested according to reports. Widespread looting and still a Russian military presence in major cities (Gori in particular) apparently demolishing buildings to ensure it takes Georgia a significant amount of time to recover.

Can't be easy for the Georgian government and militay to sit back and accept these actions but the truce is they have little choice as the alternative is probably their annihilation.

Can't see the European nations convincing Russia to return it's forces to previous positions. The Russians will want to insist on a larger "peace-keeping" force in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Chuckie

13-08-2008, 02:11 PM

I think it's time these Russians got a swift boot in the chuckies from Uncle Sam.. :agree:

lobster

21-08-2008, 08:35 AM

I think it's time these Russians got a swift boot in the chuckies from Uncle Sam.. :agree:

I think it's time these Americans got a swift boot in the chuckies from the Russians :agree: They are the ones behind it all as usual. Their hypocrisy is very impressive. And now their robot Foreign Secretary Condaleeza-the-frigid is getting the Poles in on the lets provoke the ruskies strategy. :grr:

Betty Boop

21-08-2008, 10:00 AM

I think it's time these Americans got a swift boot in the chuckies from the Russians :agree: They are the ones behind it all as usual. Their hypocrisy is very impressive. And now their robot Foreign Secretary Condaleeza-the-frigid is getting the Poles in on the lets provoke the ruskies strategy. :grr::agree: The Yanks actively encouraged Georgia to invade South Ossetia, you have to laugh at Bush though, greeting about the big bad Russians invading a sovereign country. Is that not what Britain and America done re Iraq and Afghanistan? :bitchy:

steakbake

21-08-2008, 10:55 AM

Its funny how the media has portrayed this situation.

I'd agree that its ironic how the UK and US are giving Russia the cold shoulder after the shamefully aggressive and illegal invasion and occupation where we have no business.

lobster

21-08-2008, 12:19 PM

:agree: The Yanks actively encouraged Georgia to invade South Ossetia, you have to laugh at Bush though, greeting about the big bad Russians invading a sovereign country. Is that not what Britain and America done re Iraq and Afghanistan? :bitchy:
:agree:
Yes, and Kosovo. The sooner this mob of criminals are ousted from the White House the better. Its even likely that its their doing that the current Russian administartion is the way it is given their ridiculous ideological free-market surgery which reduced Russia to wild-west capitalism in the early-mid 1990s (hi there Mr Abromovich - all hail the thief). Bush probably still thinks its the US state of Georgia that is being occupied. The lunatics have taken over the Asylum indeed. :dunno:

RyeSloan

21-08-2008, 12:35 PM

:agree:
Yes, and Kosovo. The sooner this mob of criminals are ousted from the White House the better. Its even likely that its their doing that the current Russian administartion is the way it is given their ridiculous ideological free-market surgery which reduced Russia to wild-west capitalism in the early-mid 1990s (hi there Mr Abromovich - all hail the thief). Bush probably still thinks its the US state of Georgia that is being occupied. The lunatics have taken over the Asylum indeed. :dunno:

Urmm hardly comparable to Iraq. In fact the opposite is true, NATO did not arrive quick enough or fight hard enough in the balkans and many many innocent people suffered as a result.

lobster

21-08-2008, 04:54 PM

Urmm hardly comparable to Iraq. In fact the opposite is true, NATO did not arrive quick enough or fight hard enough in the balkans and many many innocent people suffered as a result.

That's because i'm not comparing it Irag directly but I am comparing it to Russia entering Georgia's territory i.e. its ok for NATO (or for simplicity, the USA) to go into Yugoslavian territory on the basis of protecting human rights but its not ok for Russia to do likewise in Georgia? Dont think so. So the opposite is not true, its hypocrisy on behalf of the USA and their poddle coalition forces. Innocent people always suffer as a result of war - perhaps the Georgians should have thought of that before they went in to sort out the south Ossetians who incidently have been autonomous since 1991. On the opening day of the Olympics no less. Rather tawdry dont you think?

hibsdaft

21-08-2008, 10:27 PM

and Kosovo.

Kosovo is a useful comparison in another way as its a pretty similar situation: Kosovans/ Ossetians having both settled on the land of their neighbours (Serbia and Georgia) hundreds of years ago and now, for right or for wrong wanting to claim it as their own country having been subject to the prejudice of their hosts and now as a consequence they have got the backs up their respective hosts and incited violence and further prejudice upon themselves as a result.

two very different responces from the West/ NATO in these two cases of course but thats part and parcel - this is all geopolitics at the end of the day and none of it on any side has anything to do with whats right.

a plague on both their houses imo [Russia & NATO].

incidentally the pro-separatist populations of both South Ossetia and Abjhakia (sp?) held very large rallies today which have noticably been ignored by the media over here. you can't blame these people for wanting to take the shelter of 'mother Russia' as they see it [i think?] after the abuse they appear to have been subject to, its just a shame there wasn't another option for them imo.

Betty Boop

22-08-2008, 07:01 AM

Kosovo is a useful comparison in another way as its a pretty similar situation: Kosovans/ Ossetians having both settled on the land of their neighbours (Serbia and Georgia) hundreds of years ago and now, for right or for wrong wanting to claim it as their own country having been subject to the prejudice of their hosts and now as a consequence they have got the backs up their respective hosts and incited violence and further prejudice upon themselves as a result.

two very different responces from the West/ NATO in these two cases of course but thats part and parcel - this is all geopolitics at the end of the day and none of it on any side has anything to do with whats right.

a plague on both their houses imo [Russia & NATO].

incidentally the pro-separatist populations of both South Ossetia and Abjhakia (sp?) held very large rallies today which have noticably been ignored by the media over here. you can't blame these people for wanting to take the shelter of 'mother Russia' as they see it [i think?] after the abuse they appear to have been subject to, its just a shame there wasn't another option for them imo.How convenient, so much for our free press, they only report what they want us to believe! :bitchy:

Hibrandenburg

22-08-2008, 10:07 AM

This is a really difficult one.

On the one hand we have a majority ethnic Russian area of Georgia that wants autonomy.

On the other we have a part of Georgia that wants to break away from the motherland because of Russian settlers demanding autonomy.

Same story different view points, this cannot have a happy end.

hibsdaft

22-08-2008, 06:33 PM

plus you have a sizeable %age of ethnic Georgians living in South Ossetia who are under threat from the South Ossetians, (who have been under attack from rest of Georgian of course).

the 'solution' is for the players in this game (Georgia and its politicians/ NATO / Russia / S Ossetian Politicians / local gangsters and paramilitaries etc) to back off and let things settle but sadly that will never happen in a million years because of the vested interests that each one of them has.

one way or another the majority of the people on the ground in that place are going to be ****ed over. again.

RyeSloan

22-08-2008, 06:39 PM

That's because i'm not comparing it Irag directly but I am comparing it to Russia entering Georgia's territory i.e. its ok for NATO (or for simplicity, the USA) to go into Yugoslavian territory on the basis of protecting human rights but its not ok for Russia to do likewise in Georgia? Dont think so. So the opposite is not true, its hypocrisy on behalf of the USA and their poddle coalition forces. Innocent people always suffer as a result of war - perhaps the Georgians should have thought of that before they went in to sort out the south Ossetians who incidently have been autonomous since 1991. On the opening day of the Olympics no less. Rather tawdry dont you think?

Aye fair point but I dunno if Georgia was quite doing to the South Ossetians what was happening in Sebrinicia.

Have to agree though that the US have sounded so hypocritcal that their words carry no weight at all.