Immigration watch

[The cooler king]

Oh well nothing much to report today.

Just stories in the national press that there will be riots on the streets of the UK.......oh and the BBC news at 10 have infiltrated Asian 'Fujis' gangs.
Immigrant illegally here who live in a hidden world commiting fraud on a monumental scale.....illegal documents, jobs, etc......

Still its good for the British economy eh?.........oh havnt you heard?.......What Credit crisis Mr Brown!?:bitchy:

[steakbake]

Oh well nothing much to report today.

Just stories in the national press that there will be riots on the streets of the UK.......oh and the BBC news at 10 have infiltrated Asian 'Fujis' gangs.
Immigrant illegally here who live in a hidden world commiting fraud on a monumental scale.....illegal documents, jobs, etc......

Still its good for the British economy eh?.........oh havnt you heard?.......What Credit crisis Mr Brown!?:bitchy:

The Daily Mail?

Immigration is the least of the worries.

I would highly recommend a leaf through a book called "Squandered" by David Craig.

It is a point by point assassination of the illusion of Brown's economic and social policy competence.

Since 1997, we have blown 1 trillion GBP in taxes. We are 17 out of 19 developed nations for the survival rate of cancer, and 19 out of 19 for incidence of hospital infections. In 2007, more people died from hospital infections in the UK than people died in Iraq.

I am so raging at labour, but equally at my compatriots and the media who blithely think there is nothing wrong.

They have ****ed the country up monumentally. Only once they are out of office will this become apparent.

A leaf through "Squandered" will also give you the tip of the iceberg.

I was talking to a colleague from the Home Office in London the other day. Pissed as he was, he was telling me that most departments are barely functional at the moment with all the various initiatives coming home to roost in one way or another. I felt sorry for the guy. Clearly what he was saying is that his department lacked any clear direction.

[The cooler king]

The Daily Mail?

Immigration is the least of the worries.

I would highly recommend a leaf through a book called "Squandered" by David Craig.

It is a point by point assassination of the illusion of Brown's economic and social policy competence.

Since 1997, we have blown 1 trillion GBP in taxes. We are 17 out of 19 developed nations for the survival rate of cancer, and 19 out of 19 for incidence of hospital infections. In 2007, more people died from hospital infections in the UK than people died in Iraq.

I am so raging at labour, but equally at my compatriots and the media who blithely think there is nothing wrong.

They have ****ed the country up monumentally. Only once they are out of office will this become apparent.

A leaf through "Squandered" will also give you the tip of the iceberg.

I was talking to a colleague from the Home Office in London the other day. Pissed as he was, he was telling me that most departments are barely functional at the moment with all the various initiatives coming home to roost in one way or another. I felt sorry for the guy. Clearly what he was saying is that his department lacked any clear direction.

Who gives a ****, as long as the lotto money goes intae giving us mare o these educational fulms like the yoan wan from yon Heritage scheme on
'understanding of the culture and traditions of “Gypsy Travellers'

Exactly what we need in this country, to get us all onside likes!!
:agree:

[The_Todd]

The Daily Mail?

Immigration is the least of the worries.


Sadly, and perhaps worryingly, the Daily Mail is the national newspaper with the highest circulation in the UK and is "paper of the year" (how, I wonder?)

And true - immigration is the least of our worries. In fact, so man immigrants are leaving again (mostly the Poles) that there's a labour shortfall.

But of course, the Mail will have you believe they're all dole theives. :brickwall

[The cooler king]

Sadly, and perhaps worryingly, the Daily Mail is the national newspaper with the highest circulation in the UK and is "paper of the year" (how, I wonder?)

And true - immigration is the least of our worries. In fact, so man immigrants are leaving again (mostly the Poles) that there's a labour shortfall.

But of course, the Mail will have you believe they're all dole theives. :brickwall

whereas you beleive all immigrants come over here to work?......haha right.......wool eyes pull it!

[steakbake]

Who gives a ****, as long as the lotto money goes intae giving us mare o these educational fulms like the yoan wan from yon Heritage scheme on
'understanding of the culture and traditions of “Gypsy Travellers'

Exactly what we need in this country, to get us all onside likes!!
:agree:

They can do what they like with Lotto money - have a funfair for black and minority ethnic homosexual spiritual healers for all I care - Lotto money is optional, taxes aren't.

I care what they do with taxes and Labour have blown ours on ludicrous initiatives, quangoes and thrown away on contracting in pretty much all areas of public life.

In terms of immigrants, student migrants for example, contributed well over 6 billion pounds to the UK economy last year. With their fees, they prop up our poorly funded education system. In addition, they work part time jobs and pay extortionate fees to get their visas extended. Generally as a group, people would have to be pretty hard-hearted to fail to recognise the contribution they make.

[McSwanky]

blah blah blah........ British economy....... blah blah blah blah....... What Credit crisis Mr Brown!?:bitchy:

What, you mean the credit crisis that's currently hitting most of the developed world?

So you think the global economic slowdown is primarily due to the number of immigrants moving to Britain? :crazy:

[The_Todd]

whereas you beleive all immigrants come over here to work?......haha right.......wool eyes pull it!

sometimes I get the impression that if the daily mail said all immigrants were from mars and were here to suck out your brains the right wing would lap it all up

[marinello59]

Oh well nothing much to report today.

Just stories in the national press that there will be riots on the streets of the UK.......oh and the BBC news at 10 have infiltrated Asian 'Fujis' gangs.
Immigrant illegally here who live in a hidden world commiting fraud on a monumental scale.....illegal documents, jobs, etc......

Still its good for the British economy eh?.........oh havnt you heard?.......What Credit crisis Mr Brown!?:bitchy:

Geez, here we go again. Inflation rising at levels unknown for years, energy costs growing though the roof, financial sytem in a shambles due to years of mis-management and the housing market in disarray. Still the down market tabloids know the real reasons. ''It was the immigrants wot done it!'' :bitchy:
Look beyond your prejudices to find the real reasons for the credit crisis. Nothing do do with hard working men and women who have come to this country to improve their lives.

[steakbake]

Geez, here we go again. Inflation rising at levels unknown for years, energy costs growing though the roof, financial sytem in a shambles due to years of mis-management and the housing market in disarray. Still the down market tabloids know the real reasons. ''It was the immigrants wot done it!'' :bitchy:
Look beyond your prejudices to find the real reasons for the credit crisis. Nothing do do with hard working men and women who have come to this country to improve their lives.

In Nazi Germany, the hoi polloi were hoodwinked by the government and media into blaming the Jews for all their ills.

In 21st Century Britain, they blame immigrants.

[hibee_boy]

goodbye mr brown, hello dave.

[steakbake]

goodbye mr brown, hello dave.

Most likely. Not that that will fix anything in the short term.

[Mixu62]

I can verify that the economic downturn is most definitely global and by no means unique to the UK. For every "work-shy sponging immigrant" to UK, there's one leaving to come over here. Honestly, I expected better from people who follow a club, nay a lifestyle founded on the efforts of unwanted immigrants. Get a grip.

[richard_pitts]

whereas you beleive all immigrants come over here to work?......haha right.......wool eyes pull it!

If I was being cheeky and somewhat ironic I would say that coming over here and being a dole thief was just integrating with your Scottish neighbours if you decided to live in the east end of Glasgow or dare I say it, some parts of Edinburgh :greengrin. Well the Mail says immigrants should integrate doesn't it? :duck:

I work with a lot of Poles, Slovaks and Lithuanians (no I don't work for Hearts :greengrin) and the biggest problems I encounter are actually getting them to take help when they need it on the grounds they tell you "We don't want charity, we are here to work" even when they're being paid less than the minimum wage :dunno:

Oh I also work with Gypsies. Any chance of that Lottery-funded DvD on download? :greengrin

Coolerking, as the song goes "If you know your history..." :agree:

[hibsdaft]

Agenda Watch more like.

must be stacks of Poles etc going home now with the economic downturn i would imagine. as for illegal immigration, i think its time for a proper task force to tackle those in the UK who are genuinly responsible for encouraging those who risk their lives to come here to work: their employers.

Incidentally anyone actually interested in gypsy travellers may be interested in the Scottish Travellers (aka the Scottish Walkers), who have been around for at least 500 years in this country and amongst whose number was the celebrated traditional Scottish singer Belle Stewart:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Travellers

[lucky]

The Daily Mail?

Immigration is the least of the worries.

I would highly recommend a leaf through a book called "Squandered" by David Craig.

It is a point by point assassination of the illusion of Brown's economic and social policy competence.

Since 1997, we have blown 1 trillion GBP in taxes. We are 17 out of 19 developed nations for the survival rate of cancer, and 19 out of 19 for incidence of hospital infections. In 2007, more people died from hospital infections in the UK than people died in Iraq.

I am so raging at labour, but equally at my compatriots and the media who blithely think there is nothing wrong.

They have ****ed the country up monumentally. Only once they are out of office will this become apparent.

A leaf through "Squandered" will also give you the tip of the iceberg.

I was talking to a colleague from the Home Office in London the other day. Pissed as he was, he was telling me that most departments are barely functional at the moment with all the various initiatives coming home to roost in one way or another. I felt sorry for the guy. Clearly what he was saying is that his department lacked any clear direction.

Most economic observers believe that Gordon Brown was an outstanding Chancellor and that the UK has never had such a long period of stability. The world economic problems have been clearly linked to the greed of the American banks through the selling of mortgages to people who could afford them.

If immigration is so bad for countries why is it the most affluent countries have had immigration for years?

[sKipper]

Most economic observers believe that Gordon Brown was an outstanding Chancellor

He probably was. Shame hes such a *****y Prime Minister though :greengrin



I would also say immigration is essential for a vibrant economy, especially in a small country like Scotland where we were suffering a spell of depopulation.

[lucky]

He probably was. Shame hes such a *****y Prime Minister though :greengrin



I would also say immigration is essential for a vibrant economy, especially in a small country like Scotland where we were suffering a spell of depopulation.

For once skippy I can agree with you :greengrin

[The cooler king]

He probably was. Shame hes such a *****y Prime Minister though :greengrin



I would also say immigration is essential for a vibrant economy, especially in a small country like Scotland where we were suffering a spell of depopulation.

Try selling that to the staff of say like HBoS who have announced huge redundancies yet i'll wager their onshore/outsourcing population will be retained as well as the partnership with offshore indian companies.

No UK workers jobs should be under threat from any immigrant and any company thinking of taking on immigrants in preference to a UK national should be taxed to the hilt so that the cost equates to the same, else let them be asked to relocate their head offices to the countries that they show favour to.

[marinello59]

Try selling that to the staff of say like HBoS who have announced huge redundancies yet i'll wager their onshore/outsourcing population will be retained as well as the partnership with offshore indian companies.

No UK workers jobs should be under threat from any immigrant and any company thinking of taking on immigrants in preference to a UK national should be taxed to the hilt so that the cost equates to the same, else let them be asked to relocate their head offices to the countries that they show favour to.

:confused: If these workers are working in a call centre in their own country then they are not immigrants are they?

[The_Todd]

Try selling that to the staff of say like HBoS who have announced huge redundancies yet i'll wager their onshore/outsourcing population will be retained as well as the partnership with offshore indian companies.

No UK workers jobs should be under threat from any immigrant and any company thinking of taking on immigrants in preference to a UK national should be taxed to the hilt so that the cost equates to the same, else let them be asked to relocate their head offices to the countries that they show favour to.

What has offshoring got to do with immigration? :confused:

[The cooler king]

What has offshoring got to do with immigration? :confused:

Well if it wasnt for technology permitting such jobs to be 'offshored' there would obviously be more immigrants......
Still the government permits multi national UK companies to denationalise the UK workforce for cheap labour in the best interests of the 'shareholders'.....who a load of schiedt.

[marinello59]

Well if it wasnt for technology permitting such jobs to be 'offshored' there would obviously be more immigrants......
Still the government permits multi national UK companies to denationalise the UK workforce for cheap labour in the best interests of the 'shareholders'.....who a load of schiedt.

Obviously?:confused:

[richard_pitts]

Try selling that to the staff of say like HBoS who have announced huge redundancies yet i'll wager their onshore/outsourcing population will be retained as well as the partnership with offshore indian companies.

No UK workers jobs should be under threat from any immigrant and any company thinking of taking on immigrants in preference to a UK national should be taxed to the hilt so that the cost equates to the same, else let them be asked to relocate their head offices to the countries that they show favour to.

To bring someone in from outside the EU you have to demonstrate that you can't find someone else to do the jobs in the UK before they can get a work permit. Same is also true of footballers. Sorry to let the facts get in the way of an argument :wink:

Moving jobs abroad is different to bringing people in. That has been going on for years. In India Graduates aspire to working in call centres cos wages and conditions are so good. Compare that with here and it isn't hard to understand why - oh I got fired from a call centre for organising a trade union incidentally :greengrin

[The cooler king]

Obviously?:confused:

Then you would obviously agree that 'offshoring' and immigration are inherently linked as a method to de-nationalise the UK workforce?

[marinello59]

Then you would obviously agree that 'offshoring' and immigration are inherently linked as a method to de-nationalise the UK workforce?

No. Offshoring is used to reduce costs and improve profits for shareholders. It's how the free market works whether you like it or not.

[The cooler king]

No. Offshoring is used to reduce costs and improve profits for shareholders. It's how the free market works whether you like it or not.

reduce costs?.....cheap labour then, agreed?

[marinello59]

reduce costs?.....cheap labour then, agreed?

The motivation is to reduce costs. You seem to be implying that the motivation is simply to replace UK residents with foreign nationals which simply does not make sense. The market determines how profit making companies operate. I believe that some organisations tried the offshore call centre approach and abandoned it as it proved unpopular with their customers. Nationality or otherwise of the workers involved does not come in to their thinking.............the bottom line is all that counts.

[The cooler king]

The motivation is to reduce costs. You seem to be implying that the motivation is simply to replace UK residents with foreign nationals which simply does not make sense. The market determines how profit making companies operate. I believe that some organisations tried the offshore call centre approach and abandoned it as it proved unpopular with their customers. Nationality or otherwise of the workers involved does not come in to their thinking.............the bottom line is all that counts.

Now you are being ridiculous.

I'm implying that UK companies have been permitted to employ cheap foreign alternatives yes to reduce costs and further more satisfy the Shareholders at a dispicable cost.
The hiring of Non-UK staff has 'flatlined' the career structure across many UK organisations to an abhorrent degree.

UK comapnies enjoy the freedom of the logistical infrustructure in this country and yet treat the UK nationals as an expensive alternative.
IMHO these companies should be made to rebuild their head offices etc in the heart of the third world countries they flagrantly beset.

No wonder the young UK nationals of this country see no future when they see a 1000yrs of heritage destroyed at a whim.

:brickwall

[--------]

sometimes I get the impression that if the daily mail said all immigrants were from mars and were here to suck out your brains the right wing would lap it all up

Who told you that? Have you signed the Official Secrets Act? Do you have clearance to possess that information? Who's been talking out of turn? No one's supposed to know that....



Try selling that to the staff of say like HBoS who have announced huge redundancies yet i'll wager their onshore/outsourcing population will be retained as well as the partnership with offshore indian companies.

No UK workers jobs should be under threat from any immigrant and any company thinking of taking on immigrants in preference to a UK national should be taxed to the hilt so that the cost equates to the same, else let them be asked to relocate their head offices to the countries that they show favour to.

Welcome to world monopoly capitalism, the global economy, and the 21st century, mate. Where've you been?

BTW - I don't want to offend, but that last para reminds me rather of a certain Austrian housepainter from about 70 years ago....

(He didn't like gypsies, either, although he eventually found a place for them in the undustrial process - in a soap-works.)

Lebensraum, anyone?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Now you are being ridiculous.

I'm implying that UK companies have been permitted to employ cheap foreign alternatives yes to reduce costs and further more satisfy the Shareholders at a dispicable cost.
The hiring of Non-UK staff has 'flatlined' the career structure across many UK organisations to an abhorrent degree.

UK comapnies enjoy the freedom of the logistical infrustructure in this country and yet treat the UK nationals as an expensive alternative.
IMHO these companies should be made to rebuild their head offices etc in the heart of the third world countries they flagrantly beset.

No wonder the young UK nationals of this country see no future when they see a 1000yrs of heritage destroyed at a whim.

:brickwall

I fail to see what this has to do with (your borderline racist comments about) immmigration.

The free market (urgh) will exploit any and every loop-hole it can find to pay workers as little as possible, to pay as little tax as possible - or indeed often none at all, see Dubai. Either oppose it or support it with all its injustices and inequalities.

[marinello59]

Now you are being ridiculous.

I'm implying that UK companies have been permitted to employ cheap foreign alternatives yes to reduce costs and further more satisfy the Shareholders at a dispicable cost.
The hiring of Non-UK staff has 'flatlined' the career structure across many UK organisations to an abhorrent degree.

UK comapnies enjoy the freedom of the logistical infrustructure in this country and yet treat the UK nationals as an expensive alternative.
IMHO these companies should be made to rebuild their head offices etc in the heart of the third world countries they flagrantly beset.

No wonder the young UK nationals of this country see no future when they see a 1000yrs of heritage destroyed at a whim.

:brickwall

Interesting choice of words. Reich on.
You are actually moaning about the effects of capitalism and the free market economy but for some irrational reason you are directing your anger towards immigrants.
Maybe you should ditch that and go and man the barricades with Tommy Sheridan and co.:greengrin

[hibbytam]

Now you are being ridiculous.

I'm implying that UK companies have been permitted to employ cheap foreign alternatives yes to reduce costs and further more satisfy the Shareholders at a dispicable cost.
The hiring of Non-UK staff has 'flatlined' the career structure across many UK organisations to an abhorrent degree.

UK comapnies enjoy the freedom of the logistical infrustructure in this country and yet treat the UK nationals as an expensive alternative.
IMHO these companies should be made to rebuild their head offices etc in the heart of the third world countries they flagrantly beset.

No wonder the young UK nationals of this country see no future when they see a 1000yrs of heritage destroyed at a whim.

:brickwall

1000s years of heritage? What are you bleating about?

Its ****, but if there's money to be made or saved, to hell with the rest. Its called capitalism.

[steakbake]

Now you are being ridiculous.

I'm implying that UK companies have been permitted to employ cheap foreign alternatives yes to reduce costs and further more satisfy the Shareholders at a dispicable cost.
The hiring of Non-UK staff has 'flatlined' the career structure across many UK organisations to an abhorrent degree.

UK comapnies enjoy the freedom of the logistical infrustructure in this country and yet treat the UK nationals as an expensive alternative.
IMHO these companies should be made to rebuild their head offices etc in the heart of the third world countries they flagrantly beset.

No wonder the young UK nationals of this country see no future when they see a 1000yrs of heritage destroyed at a whim.

:brickwall

I though you were off to Australia? Are you nearly there yet?

[steakbake]

Most economic observers believe that Gordon Brown was an outstanding Chancellor and that the UK has never had such a long period of stability. The world economic problems have been clearly linked to the greed of the American banks through the selling of mortgages to people who could afford them.

If immigration is so bad for countries why is it the most affluent countries have had immigration for years?

We'll see but the treasury couldn't balance it's books this year (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4265825.ece).

Prudence, indeed.

Nowt to do with American banks etc and everything to do with poor economic management.

Brown gave the illusion of being a good chancellor. But he has fkd up royally.

Here's some light reading - and it's not just right wing sources:

Gold Reserves (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/05/mining.economy?gusrc=rss&feed=politics)

Budget Deficit (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aIGJFcjIeHkw&refer=europe)

Northern Rock (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/anatole_kaletsky/article3227927.ece)

Prudence (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jul/19/economy.gordonbrown)

Liability (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23484096-details/The+myth+of+Gordon's+economic+competence/article.do)

[steakbake]

Then you would obviously agree that 'offshoring' and immigration are inherently linked as a method to de-nationalise the UK workforce?

if you off shore work, then presumably its work taking place in india etc?

so how does that make the people who are doing it immigrants?

by definition, an immigrant is someone who settles in another country either temporarily or permanently.

also, just picking up on a comment you made, have you never heard of the resident labour market test?

if a company in the UK wants a work permit for a worker, they need to satisfy the resident labour market test. that test looks at applicants for the job from the local community and the EU. If a company can prove that no-one in the UK or EU can do that job, then they have satisfied that test.

Clearly, you seem to think they can pick and choose who they want. Unfortunatly its not that simple or some of the work being done in UK Plc would be being done by far more dedicated people.

[lucky]

We'll see but the treasury couldn't balance it's books this year (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4265825.ece).

Prudence, indeed.

Nowt to do with American banks etc and everything to do with poor economic management.

Brown gave the illusion of being a good chancellor. But he has fkd up royally.

Here's some light reading - and it's not just right wing sources:

Gold Reserves (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/05/mining.economy?gusrc=rss&feed=politics)

Budget Deficit (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aIGJFcjIeHkw&refer=europe)

Northern Rock (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/anatole_kaletsky/article3227927.ece)

Prudence (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jul/19/economy.gordonbrown)

Liability (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23484096-details/The+myth+of+Gordon's+economic+competence/article.do)

The poor economic management has been caused by the big multi nationals and their greed for profit. With financial institutions having to get further funding from its shareholders this is the start of the demise of capitalism

[hibsdaft]

You are actually moaning about the effects of capitalism and the free market economy

aye, and which was unleashed by his big hero: maggie thatcher

you couldn't make it up!!

do some reading Cooler King

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

[hibsitis]

Cooler King:-

I assume you never cheer any goals scored by a foreign Hibs player keeping a Brit out of the team.

[allyhibee]

Now you are being ridiculous.

I'm implying that UK companies have been permitted to employ cheap foreign alternatives yes to reduce costs and further more satisfy the Shareholders at a dispicable cost.


I can't speak for other industries but in IT work is offshored to India because they can deliver a superior product at a lower cost. I am sure it would happen less if the British alternative was of a higher quality but it just isn't unfortunately.

[The_Todd]

I can't speak for other industries but in IT work is offshored to India because they can deliver a superior product at a lower cost. I am sure it would happen less if the British alternative was of a higher quality but it just isn't unfortunately.

While not attacking offshoring or disagreeing that it has a part to play for some companies, this is balls.

I work in IT, and in my organisation we use Dell as our sole supplier of desktop computers. When these units fail within their warranty period, we call Dell to send replacement parts (9 times out of 10, to replace the motherboard). When you call there's a 50/50 chance you'll speak to a helpdesk analyst in Glasgow or India. God help you if you get India.

Whilst the helpdesk guys in india are very polite and attempt to be helpful, the whole call is sometimes a wasted effort. I am not disputing their competence and IT knowledge but communication is a huge problem when you've got two people on a phone who can't understand each other.

I am afraid this is not a superior product.

It may well be different for other IT functions however, such as software engineering etc but for user support it's below par.

[Brizo]

Now you are being ridiculous.

I'm implying that UK companies have been permitted to employ cheap foreign alternatives yes to reduce costs and further more satisfy the Shareholders at a dispicable cost.
The hiring of Non-UK staff has 'flatlined' the career structure across many UK organisations to an abhorrent degree.

UK comapnies enjoy the freedom of the logistical infrustructure in this country and yet treat the UK nationals as an expensive alternative.
IMHO these companies should be made to rebuild their head offices etc in the heart of the third world countries they flagrantly beset.

No wonder the young UK nationals of this country see no future when they see a 1000yrs of heritage destroyed at a whim.
:brickwall

Dearie me , that kind of vocabularys dangerously close to Aryan race style thinking. Hopefully you dont mean it and interesting to know if you can trace your UK heritage back 1000 years ?. I certainly cant and id be very surprised if anyone can unless their the direct descendent of Boadecia :wink:

I went to see the Proclaimers on saturday and theyve a wee song called Scotlands Story. Regardless of what you might or might not think of them its a clever wee song which basically explains that weve all been immigrants at one time or another. Todays immigrants are tomorrows British citizens.

[The cooler king]

I can't speak for other industries but in IT work is offshored to India because they can deliver a superior product at a lower cost. I am sure it would happen less if the British alternative was of a higher quality but it just isn't unfortunately.

Well i can speak for the I.T sector with 20yrs+ experience, and that statement is total bull****!!

Superior product?.....my ****ing arse.
The software developed from these offshore companies coupled with their inherent inability to:
a) Work autonomously.
b) Look at the bigger picture
c) Communicate effectively......

Cheap alternative....yes?......Superior product....dinnae ****in get me started.......:brickwall:brickwall:brickwall

[The cooler king]

My gripe is not just immigration, which imo is symptomatic of the real issue, which is the de-nationalisation of the UK workforce in all fields of employment.
How this Country has let the Govt get away with this is beyond me.

Having worked in an I.T department for a finance company, the productivity became a ****in joke.

We'd take on offshorers fi India to educate them on the systems and procedures etc so's they could fly back home to provide support on minor enhancements and basic stuff.....efter 3months they'd be off, resigned from their company, with their CV's updated, such is the competition in Asia that the only route to progress is by moving job continuously.
What your left with is the dross that are no good enough to move or fresh graduate numpty grooming himself for the gravy train who's been passed a third person handover.......money pashed doon the Kyber as they say.

Now we have plent onshore/offshoreres, the cheap alternative which has served to demoralise UK staff and flatlined the career structure to make it non existent.

Have i got a chip on my shoulder?.....too ****in right, I'll no entertain a foreign call centre response on my phone, Demand a UK rep, end of.

After 20yrs in I.T, diversification into Sports Coaching is now a viable option for long term security.

Theres a lot to be said for the character 'DEFENCE' in falling down, trust me, i know dozens of these guys.

[hibsdaft]

in amongst all of CK's rhetoric is a pretty good question though:

who wants to be in direct competition with every worker on the planet for his job. i know i don't, i want a stable and secure life.

we never voted for this neo-liberal economy, but its been brought through by every politician on the planet in the last 20-30 years: Thatcher, Brown, Blair, Reagan and Obama, but who actually asked for it?

personally it scares the living **** out of me, the idea that we will have to compete with every other country on the planet in this way - yes we have an upper hand right now but not for long. and as we've seen it just becomes a question of who the employer can get to work for cheaper, and with worse working conditions.

aside from being 'inevitable', which isn't an argument in its favour, is there anything actually desirable about this set-up for the average person in the UK?

[allyhibee]

While not attacking offshoring or disagreeing that it has a part to play for some companies, this is balls.

I work in IT, and in my organisation we use Dell as our sole supplier of desktop computers. When these units fail within their warranty period, we call Dell to send replacement parts (9 times out of 10, to replace the motherboard). When you call there's a 50/50 chance you'll speak to a helpdesk analyst in Glasgow or India. God help you if you get India.

Whilst the helpdesk guys in india are very polite and attempt to be helpful, the whole call is sometimes a wasted effort. I am not disputing their competence and IT knowledge but communication is a huge problem when you've got two people on a phone who can't understand each other.

I am afraid this is not a superior product.

It may well be different for other IT functions however, such as software engineering etc but for user support it's below par.

I completely agree with what you are saying, user support doesnt work when it is offshored but isn't some of that coming back across?

I am not talking about helpdesks I was talking about systems created by Indian companies, who a lot of are operating at CMMI level 5(or similar standards). These are programmers who are just as skilled as the UK counterparts but operating to standard procedures which isn't happening over here.

[The_Todd]

I completely agree with what you are saying, user support doesnt work when it is offshored but isn't some of that coming back across?

I am not talking about helpdesks I was talking about systems created by Indian companies, who a lot of are operating at CMMI level 5(or similar standards). These are programmers who are just as skilled as the UK counterparts but operating to standard procedures which isn't happening over here.


Gotcha. Boy is that egg all over my face! :greengrin

Sometimes I've got to realise my area in IT isn't the only one :wink:

[RyeSloan]

Cooler King, you let your personal experience cloud your view of the bigger picture.

Your claims of de-nationalising the UK work force and careers being flat lined due to off-shoring smack of sensationalism and total mis-representation. Of course there has been a lot of issues, esp. in your industry but there has also been plenty of examples of where moving certian roles off shore have increased profitability and productivity.

Even in your mini rant example the indian was given minor enhancements and basic stuff not made MD of the company.

I have had the opposite experience of indians coming to the UK, they have proven to be knowlegable, dedicated and an asset to the company.

The world is a global market for any medium to large compnay and they simply would not succeed if they based all of their operations in one country. Do BMW build all their car in Germany? Should Britiain still mine it's own coal even if it cost 4 times as much as coal from a 'foreign' country....??

[The cooler king]

Cooler King, you let your personal experience cloud your view of the bigger picture.

Your claims of de-nationalising the UK work force and careers being flat lined due to off-shoring smack of sensationalism and total mis-representation.
ERm no these are facts, supplemeted by the lack of opportunities and career progression of many I.T professioal who have been left to stagnate.

Of course there has been a lot of issues, esp. in your industry but there has also been plenty of examples of where moving certian roles off shore have increased profitability and productivity.
You mean its been cheaper?.....why should this be a valid excuse to denationalise the UK workforce?

Even in your mini rant example the indian was given minor enhancements and basic stuff not made MD of the company.
A budget pashed to the Kyber on knowledge transfer. Each excercise repeated and as desperate as the previous one.

I have had the opposite experience of indians coming to the UK, they have proven to be knowlegable, dedicated and an asset to the company.
In my experience they have not been shown to be any more so than a UK employee?

The world is a global market for any medium to large compnay and they simply would not succeed if they based all of their operations in one country. Do BMW build all their car in Germany? Should Britiain still mine it's own coal even if it cost 4 times as much as coal from a 'foreign' country....??
Do BMW take a German worforce with them of thousands to run the plant?....no they would utilise the countries national workforce.
Totally irrelevant and off the point.

.

[mixumatosis]

They can do what they like with Lotto money - have a funfair for black and minority ethnic homosexual spiritual healers for all I care - Lotto money is optional, taxes aren't.

It will soon become a tax when folk stop buying the scratchcards that are supposed to be paying for LONDONs olympics

In terms of immigrants, student migrants for example, contributed well over 6 billion pounds to the UK economy last year. With their fees, they prop up our poorly funded education system. In addition, they work part time jobs and pay extortionate fees to get their visas extended. Generally as a group, people would have to be pretty hard-hearted to fail to recognise the contribution they make.

I've tried to employ people for a respectble job with good pay and conditions but required a 6am start. The only replies we got were from polish people.


Well i can speak for the I.T sector with 20yrs+ experience, and that statement is total bull****!!

Superior product?.....my ****ing arse.
The software developed from these offshore companies coupled with their inherent inability to:
a) Work autonomously.
b) Look at the bigger picture
c) Communicate effectively......

Cheap alternative....yes?......Superior product....dinnae ****in get me started.......:brickwall:brickwall:brickwall

[I]My dad is a naval engineer of 40yrs experience. He was sent on a job with the express purpose of showing native workers how to fix a problem that was inherent in the hardware that his company had supplied. He wouldn't do it because he felt it put his job at risk. Now I don't support my dad getting laid off but I can see that it's grossly unfair to supply something faulty and then refuse to tell the customer how to fix it so that you can continue to charge them for business class travel for an engineer to come out and fix it, whilst charging the customer for 4* accomodation for said engineer to come out and fix a manufacturing flaw. My point is that you mention the inability to work autonomously, but I'll be honest, my dad would have told his supers that he's told them everything they neeeded to know just to paint them in a bad light.[I]

[allyhibee]

Gotcha. Boy is that egg all over my face! :greengrin

Sometimes I've got to realise my area in IT isn't the only one :wink:

It would appear I made the same mistake assuming my area was the only one too. :greengrin

[lyonhibs]

:confused: If these workers are working in a call centre in their own country then they are not immigrants are they?

You know the drill

"Damn Immigrants, staying over there, stealing our jobs"

Laughable stuff from TCK again.

Not to say that Brown hasn't made some monumental gaffes, cos my word he has, but to blame it on the immigrants?? :confused:

[Riz]

...some really disgustingly racist and narrowminded views here. The kinda comments made by someone near you in a pub when an eerie silence falls and dirty looks are thrown ....

[richard_pitts]

Indeed, and the irony of them being made on a Hibs messageboard makes them all the more unpleasant and rather sad :brickwall

Then again, the potato famine is over so I gues we'll all be off home so it's all a bit academic :duck:

[Riz]

Indeed, and the irony of them being made on a Hibs messageboard makes them all the more unpleasant and rather sad :brickwall

Then again, the potato famine is over so I gues we'll all be off home so it's all a bit academic :duck:


Exactly mate!!! Exactly!!! what I was thinking. Im alright jack ... :agree:

God what if these Immigrants tried to start a football team? :dunno:

[The cooler king]

You know the drill

"Damn Immigrants, staying over there, stealing our jobs"

Laughable stuff from TCK again.

Not to say that Brown hasn't made some monumental gaffes, cos my word he has, but to blame it on the immigrants?? :confused:

Blame what on the immigrants?

On the fact that the government makes it easier for companies to take on foreign alternatives over a UK nationalist, to the extent that the jobs are actually transported overeas direct to the foreign worker, and by doing so destroying the hopes and aspirations of those UK workers who beleived the career they had set up for life to suport them and their family would never be under threat??

The flatlining of career structure as a result has certainly put my future on the line, and have seen many of my work coleagues forced out of the industry too as a result.

[The cooler king]

Exactly mate!!! Exactly!!! what I was thinking. Im alright jack ... :agree:

God what if these Immigrants tried to start a football team? :dunno:

How you can compare the hardship and plight of the irish who came over here, who had to scrape and scrawn for work, with no government handouts, with no government support, against the current scenario of immigrant workers who are paid to travel here, provided accomodation and all the benefits you can provide as they are a cheaper alternative to UK nationalist workers is a disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself.
:grr::brickwall

[marinello59]

How you can compare the hardship and plight of the irish who came over here, who had to scrape and scrawn for work, with no government handouts, with no government support, against the current scenario of immigrant workers who are paid to travel here, provided accomodation and all the benefits you can provide as they are a cheaper alternative to UK nationalist workers is a disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself.
:grr::brickwall

Aye, travelling half way across Europe at your own expense to pick fruit in a Perthshire field and work long hours for minimum wage is a breeze. (That's if you actually receive the legal minimum wage!) Don't forget the Portacabin style dormitory accomodation which is also provided. Or how about working for minimum wage in a Torry fish factory and staying in council accomodation that nobody else wants to live in, located in areas that nobody else wants.
Sounds really attractive doesn't it? No wonder you are up in arms. When you get your way and send them all home then you can move in to one of these cushy numbers they are depriving you of.

[Sergio sledge]

Aye, travelling half way across Europe at your own expense to pick fruit in a Perthshire field and work long hours for minimum wage is a breeze. (That's if you actually receive the legal minimum wage!) Don't forget the Portacabin style dormitory accomodation which is also provided. Or how about working for minimum wage in a Torry fish factory and staying in council accomodation that nobody else wants to live in, located in areas that nobody else wants.
Sounds really attractive doesn't it? No wonder you are up in arms. When you get your way and send them all home then you can move in to one of these cushy numbers they are depriving you of.

Yup, the reality, which the Sun/Star fails to mention, is that a lot of these migrant workers are doing jobs which unemployed British people refuse to take, mainly because it means working hard, often for less money than they can get on the benefits system.

I worked on a fruit farm through the summers while I was at school, and I was eventually organising the workforce and supervising the pickers. By far the best pickers, on the same money, were the Czech studnets who came over. they were up at 6 picking, often till 8 at night, and picked good quality stuff. They camped out in a field the whole 6 weeks, because they couldn't afford to pay for accomodation. The British pickers, some sent from Jobseekers were lazy, disruptive, and picked any old rubbish, even green strawberries, because they couldn't be bothered.

The majority of migrant workers are hard working and honest, and the majority of employers have no problems with them. Maybe if British people are that bothered about "their jobs" getting taken by migrant workers, they should up their game to work as hard and honestly for their money, instead of moaning about it.

[JimBHibees]

Blame what on the immigrants?

On the fact that the government makes it easier for companies to take on foreign alternatives over a UK nationalist, to the extent that the jobs are actually transported overeas direct to the foreign worker, and by doing so destroying the hopes and aspirations of those UK workers who beleived the career they had set up for life to suport them and their family would never be under threat??

The flatlining of career structure as a result has certainly put my future on the line, and have seen many of my work coleagues forced out of the industry too as a result.

Thats the global market though. There is no way that the UK government would outlaw outsourcing as many of the beneficiaries are large UK conglomerates and there are agreements in place with EU/WTO etc. Many of the money they make or save through outsourcing will be reinvested in other areas of their business so in many ways UK workers may benefit. Your argument is simplistic in the extreme.

[Hibrandenburg]

How you can compare the hardship and plight of the irish who came over here, who had to scrape and scrawn for work, with no government handouts, with no government support, against the current scenario of immigrant workers who are paid to travel here, provided accomodation and all the benefits you can provide as they are a cheaper alternative to UK nationalist workers is a disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself.
:grr::brickwall

And all the Irish immigrants were honest hard working ex choir boys, right?

[Riz]

How you can compare the hardship and plight of the irish who came over here, who had to scrape and scrawn for work, with no government handouts, with no government support, against the current scenario of immigrant workers who are paid to travel here, provided accomodation and all the benefits you can provide as they are a cheaper alternative to UK nationalist workers is a disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself.
:grr::brickwall

I think its you that should be ashamed, as someone who came from those very irish immigrants Id be curious to see how my forefathers felt, dam sure they would be more welcoming than your "Rivers of Blood" post.

[The cooler king]

Thats the global market though. There is no way that the UK government would outlaw outsourcing as many of the beneficiaries are large UK conglomerates and there are agreements in place with EU/WTO etc. Many of the money they make or save through outsourcing will be reinvested in other areas of their business so in many ways UK workers may benefit. Your argument is simplistic in the extreme.

Your having a laff right......you'll be giving me the Labour (Brown) speel, 'created More jobs'.

Sorry bud but i trained for 7yrs and worked for 17yr to get where i currently am, if you think you can entice to be re-trained as a Customer service rep, pull the f3ckin other one!!
:confused:

How anybody can condone the Government policies which has allowed its UK nationals to be raped of their long term future and prosperity is beyond me.

:confused:

[JimBHibees]

Your having a laff right......you'll be giving me the Labour (Brown) speel, 'created More jobs'.

Sorry bud but i trained for 7yrs and worked for 17yr to get where i currently am, if you think you can entice to be re-trained as a Customer service rep, pull the f3ckin other one!!
:confused:

How anybody can condone the Government policies which has allowed its UK nationals to be raped of their long term future and prosperity is beyond me.

:confused:

Which bit of its the free market dont you understand. Businesses are run to make money its the way they work. If they can make money by doing things in different ways abroad much cheaper they will. Harsh as it sound that is just the way it goes from companies such as Motorola and NEC moving out of West Lothian because it is cheaper elsewhere it is the way of the world. Not condoning any government policies however trade deals are in place which allow this.

Think instead of being Mr Angry and blaming an easy target 'immigrants', how about doing something about it. Either retrain, move job, move country whatever it takes to improve your situation. There is no such thing as a job for life and that just isnt a UK issue but a global one.

[Riz]

Which bit of its the free market dont you understand. Businesses are run to make money its the way they work. If they can make money by doing things in different ways abroad much cheaper they will. Harsh as it sound that is just the way it goes from companies such as Motorola and NEC moving out of West Lothian because it is cheaper elsewhere it is the way of the world. Not condoning any government policies however trade deals are in place which allow this.

Think instead of being Mr Angry and blaming an easy target 'immigrants', how about doing something about it. Either retrain, move job, move country whatever it takes to improve your situation. There is no such thing as a job for life and that just isnt a UK issue but a global one.

Exactly, Much as I sympathise with you Cooler King, the easy target is the Immigrent, and you have to look at why they came over here, whats the situation in their country? Look at the economics of the EU and the Globalmarket. If you were in their position you would do the same thing. It seems your shooting the messanger, even demonising them when they are not the problem.

[The cooler king]

What I find distasteful about this thread is that from post 1 I have made this a political attack on the way the UK government has lapsed its morale obligation to sustain the employment future of working UK nationals.
Yet the 'morale brigage' seem to want to attack me cause i dare refer to beneficiaries of such policies as the 'immigrants'.

In some way I regret calling it immigrant watch and should have called it 'job watch'.

I have no problem with immigrants coming over here, but in no way should they be put in a more advantageous position for gaining employment than a UK national, end of!
Government should ensure that correct tax burdens are in place so as to make the selection of a resource financially unbiased.

Also the number of jobs that are transported abroad is morally abhorrent and the companies who elect to do this should be foced to relocate their head offices to those countries they so favourably court, bricks and mortar.

As for suggesting that retraining or indeed 'immigarating' are viable options what a ****ing nerve, and only serves to put into perspective the betrayal of this government on families who have sacrificed a hell of a lot over the last seven decades and the ignorance of others who believe it for the greater of good for UK economics.

Remind me how much dosh are the UK banks making?
Housebuilders plummetting.
Record number of repossesions.......:brickwall

[RyeSloan]

What I find distasteful about this thread is that from post 1 I have made this a political attack on the way the UK government has lapsed its morale obligation to sustain the employment future of working UK nationals.
Yet the 'morale brigage' seem to want to attack me cause i dare refer to beneficiaries of such policies as the 'immigrants'.

In some way I regret calling it immigrant watch and should have called it 'job watch'.

I have no problem with immigrants coming over here, but in no way should they be put in a more advantageous position for gaining employment than a UK national, end of!
Government should ensure that correct tax burdens are in place so as to make the selection of a resource financially unbiased.

Also the number of jobs that are transported abroad is morally abhorrent and the companies who elect to do this should be foced to relocate their head offices to those countries they so favourably court, bricks and mortar.

As for suggesting that retraining or indeed 'immigarating' are viable options what a ****ing nerve, and only serves to put into perspective the betrayal of this government on families who have sacrificed a hell of a lot over the last seven decades and the ignorance of others who believe it for the greater of good for UK economics.

Remind me how much dosh are the UK banks making?
Housebuilders plummetting.
Record number of repossesions.......:brickwall

This comment shows how very very little you understand the global environment UK companies trade in or even a basic understanding of how a mature economy like Britains continues to grow.

[The cooler king]

This comment shows how very very little you understand the global environment UK companies trade in or even a basic understanding of how a mature economy like Britains continues to grow.

Smoke and mirrors.

[hibsdaft]

Sorry bud but i trained for 7yrs and worked for 17yr to get where i currently am, if you think you can entice to be re-trained as a Customer service rep, pull the f3ckin other one!!
:confused:

How anybody can condone the Government policies which has allowed its UK nationals to be raped of their long term future and prosperity is beyond me.

:confused:

i totally sympathise with the general thrust of this particular post, but don't you understand that what your describing is the neo-liberal global economy and that all three political parties support this economic set-up, and that most of it kicked in under your one of your own heroes, margaret thatcher - who is its biggest supporter.

and one of the reasons she likes it is that with global competition businesses have been able to pick and choose their workforce of choice, (divide and rule etc), and by doing so have smashed trade union power (something you're also in favour of iirc) - as we're now seeing, business does not share the nostalgic attachment to the nation and its people that you do, in fact it doesn't even give a **** about it !

you're just reaping the 'rewards' of the stuff you've been supporting for probably 20 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

[RyeSloan]

Smoke and mirrors.

Or the very basics of what supports our society, call it what you will.

[RyeSloan]

i totally sympathise with the general thrust of this particular post, but don't you understand that what your describing is the neo-liberal global economy and that all three political parties support this economic set-up, and that most of it kicked in under your one of your own heroes, margaret thatcher - who is its biggest supporter.

and one of the reasons she likes it is that with global competition businesses have been able to pick and choose their workforce of choice, (divide and rule etc), and by doing so have smashed trade union power (something you're also in favour of iirc) - as we're now seeing, business does not share the nostalgic attachment to the nation and its people that you do, in fact it doesn't even give a **** about it !

you're just reaping the 'rewards' of the stuff you've been supporting for probably 20 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

Imagine letting a company to actually choose it's workforce!

Although you don't directly say I get the impression that neoliberalism is not your bag...have to say that I kind of like the idea that governments don't try and run every aspect of my life, what do suggest as an alternative for one of our large political parties to support?

[hibsdaft]

Imagine letting a company to actually choose it's workforce!

for me the sustainability and stability of a nation and its people is just a higher priority :wink:

but no i'm what i call a political agnostic so i don't have an alternative ideology or economic system that i am going to preach about (nice try though :wink:). i do feel that the UK has gone along with the changes that have happened blindly though, theres this assumption that somehow we'll be the winners out of this system, and well i really think thats misguided.

i don't understand the connection to government running your life? but i suppose in a similar vain, i actually think the democracy has now been undermined. a party such as the lib dems cannot now suggest higher business or personal tax (eg Kennedy's 50% tax policy which was extremely popular) because of this sublte threat that business/ the mega-rich will just desert the country en-masse if it was implimented. the difference now is that that can happen at the virtual click of a mouse button. isn't this the same sort of 'taking the country hostage' attitude that the trade unions were labled with?

and theres obviously a pretty big link there to the sameness of the political parties and the fall in the number of people now bothering to vote imo.

[Riz]

What I find distasteful about this thread is that from post 1 I have made this a political attack on the way the UK government has lapsed its morale obligation to sustain the employment future of working UK nationals.
Yet the 'morale brigage' seem to want to attack me cause i dare refer to beneficiaries of such policies as the 'immigrants'.

In some way I regret calling it immigrant watch and should have called it 'job watch'.

I have no problem with immigrants coming over here, but in no way should they be put in a more advantageous position for gaining employment than a UK national, end of!
Government should ensure that correct tax burdens are in place so as to make the selection of a resource financially unbiased.

Also the number of jobs that are transported abroad is morally abhorrent and the companies who elect to do this should be foced to relocate their head offices to those countries they so favourably court, bricks and mortar.

As for suggesting that retraining or indeed 'immigarating' are viable options what a ****ing nerve, and only serves to put into perspective the betrayal of this government on families who have sacrificed a hell of a lot over the last seven decades and the ignorance of others who believe it for the greater of good for UK economics.

Remind me how much dosh are the UK banks making?
Housebuilders plummetting.
Record number of repossesions.......:brickwall


Please belive me when I say I know what your getting at but your going all the wrong way about it and with your own admission you say you worded it wrong. I apologise if I came across overly offensive as your OP seemed overly abussive to me and I responded as such.

You have to ask yourself tho, alot of the nations that you seemed to term as "immigrents" are merely the oppressed and exploited lands of our forefathers coming back to bite us on the bum, that and new new Globalisation and working practise of the EU, in no way the "immigrants" fault as your OP would suggest.

[RyeSloan]

for me the sustainability and stability of a nation and its people is just a higher priority :wink:

but no i'm what i call a political agnostic so i don't have an alternative ideology or economic system that i am going to preach about (nice try though :wink:). i do feel that the UK has gone along with the changes that have happened blindly though, theres this assumption that somehow we'll be the winners out of this system, and well i really think thats misguided.

i don't understand the connection to government running your life? but i suppose in a similar vain, i actually think the democracy has now been undermined. a party such as the lib dems cannot now suggest higher business or personal tax (eg Kennedy's 50% tax policy which was extremely popular) because of this sublte threat that business/ the mega-rich will just desert the country en-masse if it was implimented. the difference now is that that can happen at the virtual click of a mouse button. isn't this the same sort of 'taking the country hostage' attitude that the trade unions were labled with?

and theres obviously a pretty big link there to the sameness of the political parties and the fall in the number of people now bothering to vote imo.


The lib dems are actually now the only party to be promising to reduce the tax burden!! How things change! There are many arguments but I firmly believe the pound in the pocket of the citizen is always preferable to the same pound being in the pocket of the government so well done the Lib Dems for being brave enough to say what we all think, we are taxed too much and too often.

Interesting that you have no alternative (or maybe just no desire to spell it out here! :wink:) to the choices that you claim have been misguided and will result in harm rather than benefit to Britian. I frequently people complaiing abotu Globalisation and free markets but rarely do I see a lucid alternative proposed at the same time....

The governement running my life comment was really aimed at the fact that a move away from so called neoliberalism would almost certainly be towards more central control. I think the government excerts far too much influence and control on my self already so for them to then start organising my working practices while dictating prices etc doesn't exactly excite!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Who do these Poles think they are. Buggering off home and leaving us with all these jobs.

It's PC gone mad!

Loaby Dodger
Muirhouse.

[The cooler king]

With the news that over 100 HBoS jobs in IT to go with scores of them north of the border it comes as no surprise to find out that the onsite outsourcers and contracted Asian off-shore group are insulated from the cull.

I wonder what the UK workers will be thinking to themselves as they are escorted off the premises come mid-september passing the banks of desks populated by the cheap alternative.

Still its good for the economy and all that, and after all there are plenty of those 'menial' jobs that have been created as a result eh?

:grr:

[Riz]

With the news that over 100 HBoS jobs in IT to go with scores of them north of the border it comes as no surprise to find out that the onsite outsourcers and contracted Asian off-shore group are insulated from the cull.

I wonder what the UK workers will be thinking to themselves as they are escorted off the premises come mid-september passing the banks of desks populated by the cheap alternative.

Still its good for the economy and all that, and after all there are plenty of those 'menial' jobs that have been created as a result eh?

:grr:

welcome to Glabalisation. You cant let one thing go by and then rant at another. All these things are connected. Its like the old "when they came for the jews, I wasent one so I wasent bothered, when they came for the Communists, I wasent one so I wasent bothered, they came for the Trade Unionists, I wasent in a Trade Union so I wasent bothered, they came for me .... and there was no one left to stand up for me"

[da-robster]

What I find distasteful about this thread is that from post 1 I have made this a political attack on the way the UK government has lapsed its morale obligation to sustain the employment future of working UK nationals.
Yet the 'morale brigage' seem to want to attack me cause i dare refer to beneficiaries of such policies as the 'immigrants'.

In some way I regret calling it immigrant watch and should have called it 'job watch'.

I have no problem with immigrants coming over here, but in no way should they be put in a more advantageous position for gaining employment than a UK national, end of!
Government should ensure that correct tax burdens are in place so as to make the selection of a resource financially unbiased.

Also the number of jobs that are transported abroad is morally abhorrent and the companies who elect to do this should be foced to relocate their head offices to those countries they so favourably court, bricks and mortar.

As for suggesting that retraining or indeed 'immigarating' are viable options what a ****ing nerve, and only serves to put into perspective the betrayal of this government on families who have sacrificed a hell of a lot over the last seven decades and the ignorance of others who believe it for the greater of good for UK economics.

Remind me how much dosh are the UK banks making?
Housebuilders plummetting.
Record number of repossesions.......:brickwall

Then the economy would be weaker and britains economy could not move forward as many would lose causing less money being spent by the working class forcing a jobs cull and more companies moving out of Britain and less in weakaning the economy and rising inflation. It's like one big circle

[steakbake]

What I find distasteful about this thread is that from post 1 I have made this a political attack on the way the UK government has lapsed its morale obligation to sustain the employment future of working UK nationals.
Yet the 'morale brigage' seem to want to attack me cause i dare refer to beneficiaries of such policies as the 'immigrants'.

In some way I regret calling it immigrant watch and should have called it 'job watch'.

I have no problem with immigrants coming over here, but in no way should they be put in a more advantageous position for gaining employment than a UK national, end of!
Government should ensure that correct tax burdens are in place so as to make the selection of a resource financially unbiased.

Also the number of jobs that are transported abroad is morally abhorrent and the companies who elect to do this should be foced to relocate their head offices to those countries they so favourably court, bricks and mortar.

As for suggesting that retraining or indeed 'immigarating' are viable options what a ****ing nerve, and only serves to put into perspective the betrayal of this government on families who have sacrificed a hell of a lot over the last seven decades and the ignorance of others who believe it for the greater of good for UK economics.

Remind me how much dosh are the UK banks making?
Housebuilders plummetting.
Record number of repossesions.......:brickwall

1. UK immigration/work permits is my bread and butter - I work in the area and advise on it. You are wrong in your assessment that immigrants are put in an advantageous position.

You clearly know nothing about immigration procedures especially the resident labour market test which is applied for those companies wishing to apply for a work permit for a prospective member of staff.

Perhaps if you know of something I have not come across in my day to day work in this area, you might wish to enlighten me?

In such cases, they need to prove that there is not a UK or EU national capable of doing the job. Any non-EEA/EU national has to go through this procedure.

The new immigration set up to replace skilled worker categories under Tier 2 will continue with this.

There are slight differences in the area of entertainers and sports persons, but then I suppose you don't mind a Uruguayans and Moroccans playing for our team.

2. Would you extend the same policy to non-UK based companies who have sourced workings and operations over here? Will you tell them to get knotted thus seeing your fellow countrymens' jobs going down the swanny?

[The cooler king]

1. UK immigration/work permits is my bread and butter - I work in the area and advise on it. You are wrong in your assessment that immigrants are put in an advantageous position.

You clearly know nothing about immigration procedures especially the resident labour market test which is applied for those companies wishing to apply for a work permit for a prospective member of staff.

Perhaps if you know of something I have not come across in my day to day work in this area, you might wish to enlighten me?

In such cases, they need to prove that there is not a UK or EU national capable of doing the job. Any non-EEA/EU national has to go through this procedure.

The new immigration set up to replace skilled worker categories under Tier 2 will continue with this.

There are slight differences in the area of entertainers and sports persons, but then I suppose you don't mind a Uruguayans and Moroccans playing for our team.

2. Would you extend the same policy to non-UK based companies who have sourced workings and operations over here? Will you tell them to get knotted thus seeing your fellow countrymens' jobs going down the swanny?

You obviously have no idea as to the loopholes that are being exploited by huge UK companies.
How is it that a large uk company is making huge redundancies yet the Asian offshoreres and outsourers are declared insular?

If you walked through the front office of a UK IT Dept you would be forgiven if you thought you had just walked straight into a Bombay Delhi Market.
I have no problem with immigrants being brought in to shore up gaps in skills shortage howver this is simply not the case.

This goverment is allowing companies the luxury of the UK logistical infrastucture whilst at the same time permitting these companies to denationalise their UK workforce in favour of the cheap foreign option,
Companies who were no doubt founded by UK nationals over the last two centuries.

As one colleague put it this government is nothing short of a 'Soviet B*trd Labour party'.
An opinion I, like many, concur with wholeheartedly.:agree:

[steakbake]

You obviously have no idea as to the loopholes that are being exploited by huge UK companies.
How is it that a large uk company is making huge redundancies yet the Asian offshoreres and outsourers are declared insular?

If you walked through the front office of a UK IT Dept you would be forgiven if you thought you had just walked straight into a Bombay Delhi Market.I have no problem with immigrants being brought in to shore up gaps in skills shortage howver this is simply not the case.

This goverment is allowing companies the luxury of the UK logistical infrastucture whilst at the same time permitting these companies to denationalise their UK workforce in favour of the cheap foreign option,
Companies who were no doubt founded by UK nationals over the last two centuries.

As one colleague put it this government is nothing short of a 'Soviet B*trd Labour party'.
An opinion I, like many, concur with wholeheartedly.:agree:


I am reluctant to tell you that you are wrong, but do you really know what contract these fellas are on, have you read their contracts? do you actually know what type of visa they are here on?

Thankfully, I don't spend much time in IT. You guys are a right shower of laughs!

However, it is reassuring to hear that your average IT bod has at least become more like a humanoid than a fringe character from Star Trek.

Still, as long as they can say "have you tried switching off and switching it back on again?" it doesn't really matter what the accent is, right?:devil:

[marinello59]

You obviously have no idea as to the loopholes that are being exploited by huge UK companies.
How is it that a large uk company is making huge redundancies yet the Asian offshoreres and outsourers are declared insular?

If you walked through the front office of a UK IT Dept you would be forgiven if you thought you had just walked straight into a Bombay Delhi Market.I have no problem with immigrants being brought in to shore up gaps in skills shortage howver this is simply not the case.

This goverment is allowing companies the luxury of the UK logistical infrastucture whilst at the same time permitting these companies to denationalise their UK workforce in favour of the cheap foreign option,
Companies who were no doubt founded by UK nationals over the last two centuries.

As one colleague put it this government is nothing short of a 'Soviet B*trd Labour party'.
An opinion I, like many, concur with wholeheartedly.:agree:

Where to start with that one? :bitchy: What political party do you support then ? Not Labour obviously. Not the Tories because they are major advocates of a free labour market. Not SNP because they are trying to entice more immigrants to Scotland.
None of the above?

[The_Todd]

If you walked through the front office of a UK IT Dept you would be forgiven if you thought you had just walked straight into a Bombay Delhi Market.:agree:

What nonsense. We have a huge IT dept at GCU, and there's only one person of Indian origin in the entire team - and she was born in Glasgow anyway.

[JimBHibees]

What nonsense. We have a huge IT dept at GCU, and there's only one person of Indian origin in the entire team - and she was born in Glasgow anyway.

Yep dont think there are any in our relatively large IT department either. :confused:

[LiverpoolHibs]

What nonsense. We have a huge IT dept at GCU, and there's only one person of Indian origin in the entire team - and she was born in Glasgow anyway.


Yep dont think there are any in our relatively large IT department either. :confused:

The Cooler King in hyperbolic, borderline-racist, kneejerk response? Come off it!

[lyonhibs]

The Cooler King in hyperbolic, borderline-racist, kneejerk response? Come off it!

Indeed - just standing up his national brethern against those free-loading, benefit robbing immigrants.

After all, how many obese, chain smoking, heavy drinking Poles with 5 kids do you see down Leith Walk these days during the day when they should be at work, whilst the fine, motivated British public slave away 12 hours a day doing a whole range of vital jobs to support the aforementioned sloth and greed of those pesky immigrants.

Why, you can hardly swing a cat without finding yet another example of why British is Best.

[Hibrandenburg]

Indeed - just standing up his national brethern against those free-loading, benefit robbing immigrants.

After all, how many obese, chain smoking, heavy drinking Poles with 5 kids do you see down Leith Walk these days during the day when they should be at work, whilst the fine, motivated British public slave away 12 hours a day doing a whole range of vital jobs to support the aforementioned sloth and greed of those pesky immigrants.

Why, you can hardly swing a cat without finding yet another example of why British is Best.


:applause: Exactly!

Now if I'd said that, they'd be outside my door with pitchforks :agree:

[Crossgates Hibs]

Yup, the reality, which the Sun/Star fails to mention, is that a lot of these migrant workers are doing jobs which unemployed British people refuse to take, mainly because it means working hard, often for less money than they can get on the benefits system.

I worked on a fruit farm through the summers while I was at school, and I was eventually organising the workforce and supervising the pickers. By far the best pickers, on the same money, were the Czech studnets who came over. they were up at 6 picking, often till 8 at night, and picked good quality stuff. They camped out in a field the whole 6 weeks, because they couldn't afford to pay for accomodation. The British pickers, some sent from Jobseekers were lazy, disruptive, and picked any old rubbish, even green strawberries, because they couldn't be bothered.

The majority of migrant workers are hard working and honest, and the majority of employers have no problems with them. Maybe if British people are that bothered about "their jobs" getting taken by migrant workers, they should up their game to work as hard and honestly for their money, instead of moaning about it.


I have to agree with you on this one. Its time the goverment done more to get lazy workshy Brits back to work these are the real leeches of society. I really grudge paying taxes for some benefit living lazy git to sit about all day watching Sky at my expense. For some people its just too easy not to work and that is wrong there should be a time limit on claiming benefit and if you turn down jobs or refuse to work they should stop.
I am no fan of immigration but when our own population wont do the work then something is very wrong.:grr:

[The cooler king]

I have to agree with you on this one. Its time the goverment done more to get lazy workshy Brits back to work these are the real leeches of society. I really grudge paying taxes for some benefit living lazy git to sit about all day watching Sky at my expense. For some people its just too easy not to work and that is wrong there should be a time limit on claiming benefit and if you turn down jobs or refuse to work they should stop.
I am no fan of immigration but when our own population wont do the work then something is very wrong.:grr:

Me, total agreement on that one.
Benefit scrougers should be jailed end ofF!!

Now getting back to the the subject of real actual UK workers losing their jobs whilst their employers are permitted to insulate Offshore Asian companies/workers from the cull......
How could MY government permit such a thing to happen!!!?:brickwall

[The cooler king]

What nonsense. We have a huge IT dept at GCU, and there's only one person of Indian origin in the entire team - and she was born in Glasgow anyway.

Did I say all?........

[Riz]

Indeed - just standing up his national brethern against those free-loading, benefit robbing immigrants.

After all, how many obese, chain smoking, heavy drinking Poles with 5 kids do you see down Leith Walk these days during the day when they should be at work, whilst the fine, motivated British public slave away 12 hours a day doing a whole range of vital jobs to support the aforementioned sloth and greed of those pesky immigrants.

Why, you can hardly swing a cat without finding yet another example of why British is Best.


Terribly ignorant comment to make, but if thats your opinion then your entitled to it. And I am more than entitled to find you a closeminded biggot racist who will no doubt vote for the facist BNP ... they will agree with you.

How about you vent your fustration in the correct manner to the correct people, not the Polish people who have come here under European Invite!

[LiverpoolHibs]

Terribly ignorant comment to make, but if thats your opinion then your entitled to it. And I am more than entitled to find you a closeminded biggot racist who will no doubt vote for the facist BNP ... they will agree with you.

How about you vent your fustration in the correct manner to the correct people, not the Polish people who have come here under European Invite!

Woooooosh!

:greengrin

[Crossgates Hibs]

Terribly ignorant comment to make, but if thats your opinion then your entitled to it. And I am more than entitled to find you a closeminded biggot racist who will no doubt vote for the facist BNP ... they will agree with you.

How about you vent your fustration in the correct manner to the correct people, not the Polish people who have come here under European Invite!

Have you read it properly or is sarcasm lost to you.:thumbsup:

[Riz]

Have you read it properly or is sarcasm lost to you.:thumbsup:

he wasent being sarcastic at all, and if he was that wasent clear in the slightest.

[Crossgates Hibs]

They can do what they like with Lotto money - have a funfair for black and minority ethnic homosexual spiritual healers for all I care - Lotto money is optional, taxes aren't.

I care what they do with taxes and Labour have blown ours on ludicrous initiatives, quangoes and thrown away on contracting in pretty much all areas of public life.

In terms of immigrants, student migrants for example, contributed well over 6 billion pounds to the UK economy last year. With their fees, they prop up our poorly funded education system. In addition, they work part time jobs and pay extortionate fees to get their visas extended. Generally as a group, people would have to be pretty hard-hearted to fail to recognise the contribution they make.



Its sickening the wastage of money under Labour our boom years have been built on easy credit. Now easy money has gone there is no boom and now we are looking at ten years to recover from this bunch of half wits.:brickwall

[Crossgates Hibs]

Me, total agreement on that one.
Benefit scrougers should be jailed end ofF!!

Now getting back to the the subject of real actual UK workers losing their jobs whilst their employers are permitted to insulate Offshore Asian companies/workers from the cull......
How could MY government permit such a thing to happen!!!?:brickwall

Your goverment doesnt give a tom tit about anyone other than theirselves as has shown since Labour came to power. They totally ignore the wishes of the people and implement things people couldnt give a toss about. Sooner they are out the better.:grr:

[LiverpoolHibs]

he wasent being sarcastic at all, and if he was that wasent clear in the slightest.

He really was, and it was pretty clear.

:agree:

[lyonhibs]

Terribly ignorant comment to make, but if thats your opinion then your entitled to it. And I am more than entitled to find you a closeminded biggot racist who will no doubt vote for the facist BNP ... they will agree with you.

How about you vent your fustration in the correct manner to the correct people, not the Polish people who have come here under European Invite!

Dearie Dearie me mate.

Me - vote for the BNP???

I'd sooner eat my own *****.

I really hoped I wouldn't have had to make the rather obvious sarcasm quite so explicit, but 30 seconds of research into my previous posts on this thread and indeed on pretty much every thread our beloved "slightly right of centre" friend TCK has started blaming all the percieved woes of the British Economy on anyone and anything except the British Public (i.e. the immigrants etc etc) would have revealed that I am probably amongst the last people on this board to agree with a single syllable of TCK frequent diatribes on this topic.

To clear up the issue, I am absolutely in favour of immigrants coming to the UK to work. Gives the sizeable percentage of sloth-like native dole scroungers that jump on the benefits bandwagon a good kick up the arse, and makes Richard Littlejohn and his cronies apoplectic with rage, which is a good thing in my book

[The cooler king]

Dearie Dearie me mate.

Me - vote for the BNP???

I'd sooner eat my own *****.

I really hoped I wouldn't have had to make the rather obvious sarcasm quite so explicit, but 30 seconds of research into my previous posts on this thread and indeed on pretty much every thread our beloved "slightly right of centre" friend TCK has started blaming all the percieved woes of the British Economy on anyone and anything except the British Public (i.e. the immigrants etc etc) would have revealed that I am probably amongst the last people on this board to agree with a single syllable of TCK frequent diatribes on this topic.

To clear up the issue, I am absolutely in favour of immigrants coming to the UK to work. Gives the sizeable percentage of sloth-like native dole scroungers that jump on the benefits bandwagon a good kick up the arse, and makes Richard Littlejohn and his cronies apoplectic with rage, which is a good thing in my book

:agree: 100%

Now back to the real thread topic on the governments lapse in stringent controls surrounding immigrant workers/offshoring, where do you stand in the governemnts policy of allowing companies to de-nationalising the UK workforce and in doing so insulating the offshore/onshore cheaper foreign alternative?

[lyonhibs]

:agree: 100%

Now back to the real thread topic on the governments lapse in stringent controls surrounding immigrant workers/offshoring, where do you stand in the governemnts policy of allowing companies to de-nationalising the UK workforce and in doing so insulating the offshore/onshore cheaper foreign alternative?

What does "de-nationalise" a workforce actually mean?? This isn't the 1970's you know, there are hardly any of the "great Nationalised industries" left (e.g. coal, gas etc etc)

These are private firms choosing to outsource certain operations to foreign lands motivated through private business interest, be they minimising costs, improving quality or whatever. As long as said transfers of business functions are done within the parameters of the law, what exactly can the UK Government be expected to do - just "block" private companies from doing what they are entitled to do?? That would get very messy, very quickly.

Besides from try to offer incentives to stay/try to talk them out of it, there's realistically very little the UK Government can do to prevent companies - be they foreign owned or British owned - from outsourcing as much as they want to.

To paraphrase Al Gore, that's the "Inconvenient Truth" of a global market economy.

[Hibrandenburg]

Terribly ignorant comment to make, but if thats your opinion then your entitled to it. And I am more than entitled to find you a closeminded biggot racist who will no doubt vote for the facist BNP ... they will agree with you.

How about you vent your fustration in the correct manner to the correct people, not the Polish people who have come here under European Invite!

Down rover down!

[The cooler king]

What does "de-nationalise" a workforce actually mean?? This isn't the 1970's you know, there are hardly any of the "great Nationalised industries" left (e.g. coal, gas etc etc)

These are private firms choosing to outsource certain operations to foreign lands motivated through private business interest, be they minimising costs, improving quality or whatever. As long as said transfers of business functions are done within the parameters of the law, what exactly can the UK Government be expected to do - just "block" private companies from doing what they are entitled to do?? That would get very messy, very quickly.

Besides from try to offer incentives to stay/try to talk them out of it, there's realistically very little the UK Government can do to prevent companies - be they foreign owned or British owned - from outsourcing as much as they want to.

To paraphrase Al Gore, that's the "Inconvenient Truth" of a global market economy.

De-nationalise 'UK' workforce.
Simple scenario, you have a team of 10, 5 UK workers with 50yrs accumulative experience and 5 onsite offshorers supllied by an Asian company with as little as 10yrs accumulative experience.
You have a review of roles, identify duplication in the team and are advised to reduce the team by 2.
You are also told that 5 onsite offshorers are insulated from the 'cull'.
You terminate the roles of the 5 UK workers, create another 3 new roles and ask the 5 UK workers to apply.
Ultimately the 3 roles are filled and the 2 unsuccessful applicants with far greater knowledge and experience are marched off-site to search the job sections for the many 'menial' roles that the government champion as the reason this is such a great policy.
Not a nice feeling watching your co-workers uncerimoniously dumped, it can be very emmotional, i know, i've seen it.

A few months down the line a further review identifies the team requiring two new support roles, these roles are transferred abroad to off-shore Asian company who provide two recently graduated 'programmers' from a Bombay 'poly' as the alternative.

The above is happening on a much grander scale around the country.
Take note this is not a 'filling the skills GAP shortage'.

Just a bit of background:
I have worked with off-shore Asian resource suppliers for 11yrs.
My first introduction to them was in the late 90's when I was working for financial installations on resolving the millenium bug.
At the time a couple of Asian companies introdcued themselves in having the perfect code analyser/generator for resolving the millenium bug issue.
A firm I was at bought the speel and decided to pass some applications off shore to be processed. However the firm also asked UK workers to check some of the code that was passed back after going through the analysing/generator tool.
After a handful of programs were returned it was patently obvious that the analyser/generator was nothing more than banks of Asian workers eyeballing and changing code with no adherence to business functionality and application integration.
Needless to say they were quickly dumped, but alas they are today still going as strong as the 'cheap' Asian alternative.

Dont get me wrong, there are certainly a few offshore workers worth their salt, indeed I was responsible for a few getting taken on, during a gap shortage of the late 90's, having vetted their CV's, but in no way is this a replication of todays scenario where UK companies are blatantly utilising loopholes to de-nationalise the UK workforce.

Racist?....certainly not.
Realist?....certainly am.

[Riz]

Dearie Dearie me mate.

Me - vote for the BNP???

I'd sooner eat my own *****.

I really hoped I wouldn't have had to make the rather obvious sarcasm quite so explicit, but 30 seconds of research into my previous posts on this thread and indeed on pretty much every thread our beloved "slightly right of centre" friend TCK has started blaming all the percieved woes of the British Economy on anyone and anything except the British Public (i.e. the immigrants etc etc) would have revealed that I am probably amongst the last people on this board to agree with a single syllable of TCK frequent diatribes on this topic.

To clear up the issue, I am absolutely in favour of immigrants coming to the UK to work. Gives the sizeable percentage of sloth-like native dole scroungers that jump on the benefits bandwagon a good kick up the arse, and makes Richard Littlejohn and his cronies apoplectic with rage, which is a good thing in my book


sorry mate, in that case I apologise.