FAO Nationalists?

[puff the dragon]

If you get your wish and Scotland becomes independent, will I get the choice to remain British or will I have to join your clans etc??

[Future17]

If you get your wish and Scotland becomes independent, will I get the choice to remain British or will I have to join your clans etc??

Eh? :confused:

[offshorehibby]

You’ll have to be Scottish and like it.

[Lucius Apuleius]

He will get the choice in the referendum. If it goes the way of independence then he gets another choice. Like it or **** off.

[deek]

If you get your wish and Scotland becomes independent, will I get the choice to remain British or will I have to join your clans etc??

Your nationality would not change. Are you Welsh? I only presume that from your username ie dragon. I may be wrong and do not care, but the only one's who call themselves British are the english, welsh and one half of the northern ireland population.

If you want to be british then by all means do so. I am Scottish and proud of it.

[hibsdaft]

i want to know if the Union flag will change, and if the names Britain and UK will change :confused:

[number7]

If you get your wish and Scotland becomes independent, will I get the choice to remain British or will I have to join your clans etc??

You will have to like it or lump it, just like we have had to do all these hundreds of years being classed as British when we are actually Scottish. Nae luck when it happens by the way; feel free to move abroad, you wont be missed.

[danhibees1875]

i want to know if the Union flag will change, and if the names Britain and UK will change :confused:

I would doubt the names would, but a good point on the union flag, :agree:


Can anybody actually see this happening in the near future?

[Mikey_1875]

I would doubt the names would, but a good point on the union flag, :agree:


Can anybody actually see this happening in the near future?

Can't see it tbh, sure I heard that you would have 3 choices in the referendum,


stay as we are
stay in Britain with more devolved powers
independence
I think it's pretty obvious it will be the 2nd option as too many people will not have the confidence to go for independence and will see it as too much a risk so more devolved power would be the best way to solve their indecision.

Hopefully if we do become independent it'll be Scottish or nothing.

[--------]

If you get your wish and Scotland becomes independent, will I get the choice to remain British or will I have to join your clans etc??



I have no idea what the policy of the first government of an independent Scotland will be, but IN MY PERSONAL OPINION:

The flag of the sovereign Scottish nation will be the Scottish saltire, a white St Andrew's cross on a sky-blue background.
The name of the country will be Scotland.
The United Kingdom will cease to exist in its present form.
The Union Flag will have to altered - the blue ground and white diagonal cross will have to come out, because that's the Scottish bit.
And if you don't want to be Scots, you don't have to be - just be a good lad and close the door behind you on your way home, will you?
But like Mikey_1875 says, I confidently expect at least three options on the referendum paper.

The status quo.
Scotland as a part of a UK but with increased sovereign powers over her affairs.
Independence within the EC.
We might even have another - full independence outside the EC like Norway has.

It's not just about casting loose from England - there are TWO Unions, in case you haven't noticed - the Union of the Crowns of 1603, and the Treaty of Union of 1707, which united the two countries' parliaments.

The 1707 Treaty can be annulled first, without Scotland leaving the UK. We can then decide whether we want Charlie Big-Ears as King when the need arises.

Me? I'm for a republic, myself. :devil:

[barcahibs]

I would have thought it would depend on what the rest of the Union does. If it dissolves then we get to be Scottish and nowt else, I can live with that if I have to.

If a 'rump' Union remains though - as surely it'll have to do politically - then there must be an argument for offering everyone who wants it dual nationality?

Can't see it happening in my lifetime to be honest, the majority will always go for the safe option, more devolved powers but within the Union is as far as we'll go, at least until we all get sucked into some superstate.

I'd personally rather a more federal system; let the English have Westminster (and pay for its upkeep :devil: ) and form a British Parliament in Manchester or Birmingham or somewhere, but that ship seems to have sailed with the last Liberal government.

Incidentally I've always felt more British than Scottish. Its possible to be proud of both.

[les83]

I would say to all the nats who are constantly banging on about how scotland needs to be free to make its own decissions etc that they are somewhat mistaken if they geniunely believe that's what independance would mean. All it would mean in reality is that we'd become a country with the international clout of Latvia who would be forced to pow pow to the rest of the eu constanltly in order to get anything done for us.
Out of the frying pan and into the fire me thinks.....

[--------]

I would say to all the nats who are constantly banging on about how scotland needs to be free to make its own decissions etc that they are somewhat mistaken if they geniunely believe that's what independance would mean. All it would mean in reality is that we'd become a country with the international clout of Latvia who would be forced to pow pow to the rest of the eu constanltly in order to get anything done for us.
Out of the frying pan and into the fire me thinks.....


As opposed to the major world power the UK is at present? :cool2:

As far as Scotland as a nation is concerned, right now we have all the international clout of one of the English regions. We can't even stop Fat Gordie from parking his nuclear deterrent in one of our sea-lochs. Independence would at least mean we could tell him to take the filthy things out of OUR territory and park them in the Thames. Let's see what THAT would do for his popularity in the polls....

Latvia at least has its own seat at the UN and isn't governed from a foreign capital city as we are.

And the expression I think you're looking for is either "kow-tow" which means to abjectly humiliate oneself before a higher power and comes from the Chinese, or "pow-wow" which means to enter into negotiations with someone and originates with the Native American peoples. I don't think small nations like Belgium , the Netherlands, or Portugal have to humiliate themselves as members of the EU (if that's what you mean), and I can't see why anyone would object to us having to negotiate with the other members (if that's what you mean).

And of course the Westminster government does such a WONDERUL job of looking after Scottish interests in Brussels already, don't they? Ask our fishermen.

[New Corrie]

You will have to like it or lump it, just like we have had to do all these hundreds of years being classed as British when we are actually Scottish. Nae luck when it happens by the way; feel free to move abroad, you wont be missed.

Such a fine example of a Nationalist, "like it or lump it". Imagine the outrage if the same sentiment was adopted towards Scotland's ethnic minorities. The reassuring thing for me is that if/when a referendum happens, common sense will prevail. I reckon most sensible Scots can look beyond these rascist, small minded, bitter individuals who dress themselves up as Scottish Nationalists.

[Mikey_1875]

Such a fine example of a Nationalist, "like it or lump it". Imagine the outrage if the same sentiment was adopted towards Scotland's ethnic minorities. The reassuring thing for me is that if/when a referendum happens, common sense will prevail. I reckon most sensible Scots can look beyond these rascist, small minded, bitter individuals who dress themselves up as Scottish Nationalists.

So everyone who wants independence is a racist :confused:

[barcahibs]

As opposed to the major world power the UK is at present? :cool2:

As far as Scotland as a nation is concerned, right now we have all the international clout of one of the English regions. We can't even stop Fat Gordie from parking his nuclear deterrent in one of our sea-lochs. Independence would at least mean we could tell him to take the filthy things out of OUR territory and park them in the Thames. Let's see what THAT would do for his popularity in the polls....

Latvia at least has its own seat at the UN and isn't governed from a foreign capital city as we are.

And the expression I think you're looking for is either "kow-tow" which means to abjectly humiliate oneself before a higher power and comes from the Chinese, or "pow-wow" which means to enter into negotiations with someone and originates with the Native American peoples. I don't think small nations like Belgium , the Netherlands, or Portugal have to humiliate themselves as members of the EU (if that's what you mean), and I can't see why anyone would object to us having to negotiate with the other members (if that's what you mean).

And of course the Westminster government does such a WONDERUL job of looking after Scottish interests in Brussels already, don't they? Ask our fishermen.

Fat Gordie isn't parking HIS nuclear deterrant anywhere. He's parking OUR nuclear deterrent in a nice, out of the way spot. If we're going to have it we have to park it somewhere.

I personally don't consider London to be a foreign city. I and half my family have lived there at one time for a start.

And ask a someone from Denmark* how they feel about having to kow-tow to Paris and Berlin whenever they fancy a pow-wow. As a mechanism for preventing the Germans marching on Verdun again the EU is a great success, but it can't ever be a real political union when there are states of such disparate size and influence with mutually exclusive histories.
I don't get the eagerness to break the Union only to join the EU, unless ALL the nations are going to break into smaller states.

* Denmarkian? Danian? :dunno:

[Mikey_1875]

Fat Gordie isn't parking HIS nuclear deterrant anywhere. He's parking OUR nuclear deterrent in a nice, out of the way spot. If we're going to have it we have to park it somewhere.

I personally don't consider London to be a foreign city. I and half my family have lived there at one time for a start.

And ask a someone from Denmark* how they feel about having to kow-tow to Paris and Berlin whenever they fancy a pow-wow. As a mechanism for preventing the Germans marching on Verdun again the EU is a great success, but it can't ever be a real political union when there are states of such disparate size and influence with mutually exclusive histories.
I don't get the eagerness to break the Union only to join the EU, unless ALL the nations are going to break into smaller states.

* Denmarkian? Danian? :dunno:

We don't lose men in our army in a war we don't want.

And also Scotland don't really have a say in things, For example, just say that few people want a conservative government in Scotland. But because we have the same amount of say in things as a few cities in England combined our say is pretty irrelevant becuase if the majority in England wanted a conservative government then Scottish people would have a government that the majority of them don't want.

There's two fairly good reasons imo for independence and i'm sure their are some good ones against independence aswell but for me I'd rather be independent.

[Future17]

Fat Gordie isn't parking HIS nuclear deterrant anywhere. He's parking OUR nuclear deterrent in a nice, out of the way spot. If we're going to have it we have to park it somewhere.

Currently, if every individual in Scotland voted not to have any nuclear weapons, they would still be located in Scotland.

Are you comfortable with that?

[barcahibs]

We don't lose men in our army in a war we don't want.

And also Scotland don't really have a say in things, For example, just say that few people want a conservative government in Scotland. But because we have the same amount of say in things as a few cities in England combined our say is pretty irrelevant becuase if the majority in England wanted a conservative government then Scottish people would have a government that the majority of them don't want.

There's two fairly good reasons imo for independence and i'm sure their are some good ones against independence aswell but for me I'd rather be independent.

With hindsight few of us want the war in Iraq (I think Afghanistan still could be a worthy cause) but at the time most opinion polls put it at about a 50/50 split.
Its just that much like the Hampden send off for Ally's Army in 1978 no-one wants to admit to supporting it now. I'll hold my hands up and admit I was pro war til we mucked up the peace. Even now I support keeping troops in Iraq, its our mess we should shoulder some of the responsibility of cleaning it up.

The voting aspect I agree with but then you could say the same for London, why should 7 million londoners live under a government voted for by 5 million Scots? Thats why (rightly) now have a devolved parliament. The English regions, if they had any sense, should be agitating for ones of their own.

I agree there are arguments both ways - and some compelling ones for independence - but I'm a long way from convinced.

[--------]

Wake up, barca.

Faslane isn't a "nice, out of the way spot". It's very close to the Central belt of Scotland, where most of the people live. Very convenient in the event of a nuclear accident, especially with a prevailing westerly wind.

Odd how an entirely new base had to be built for the Polaris boats, when Portsmouth and Devonport were already in existence. It's OUR deterrent, but not one that our English cousins want to accommodate on THEIR soil. So the boomers are based in Faslane, and the old SSNs are dumped at Rosyth to irradiate their surroundings there.

*The word is "Dane". And the question a how a Union can work when you have states of such hugely disparate size and wealth as the EU can also be applied to the UK.

And if the Tories have their way, we'll be pow-powing and kow-towing to THEM for every last penny when they dump Barnett.

Us Jocks, we're subsidy-junkies, don't y'know, old boy?

[Mikey_1875]

The voting aspect I agree with but then you could say the same for London, why should 7 million londoners live under a government voted for by 5 million Scots? Thats why (rightly) now have a devolved parliament. The English regions, if they had any sense, should be agitating for ones of their own.

.

The point is though that the Scotland cannot decide alone who is in charge of their country. English people can. I don't see why Scotland should have a Government dictating the rules to them when they don't even get a full say in it. Yes we do have a devolved government but who makes all the key decisions... the one we never voted for.

[Riz]

Personally I want a Socialist Free Indepenent Scotland... I would like to see the Parliment totally and utterly overhauled as it serves no purpose but to keep us in a class structure and ie in our places. I have nothing in common with 99.9% of those in that upside down boat and its sinking!

Freedom is nothing without free choice, right now we live in an Elected dicatorship, not a democracy and free or not under the SNP either way I dont see that changing.

[capitals_finest]

If Scotland becomes independent what will happen to the armed forces?

[barcahibs]

Currently, if every individual in Scotland voted not to have any nuclear weapons, they would still be located in Scotland.

Are you comfortable with that?

Yes. If all 5 million people in Scotland ever came to the conclusion that they no longer wanted nuclear weapons then you could guarantee that that overwhelming majority of opinion would be reflected in Britain as a whole. We're not that different, them and us.
We share a largely common set of values and beliefs with our Southern neighbours and are influenced by very similar factors. If the entire population (or even a large majority) of the British population rejected nuclear weapons then they would be gone; or our leaders would be.


Wake up, barca.

Faslane isn't a "nice, out of the way spot". It's very close to the Central belt of Scotland, where most of the people live. Very convenient in the event of a nuclear accident, especially with a prevailing westerly wind.

Odd how an entirely new base had to be built for the Polaris boats, when Portsmouth and Devonport were already in existence. It's OUR deterrent, but not one that our English cousins want to accommodate on THEIR soil. So the boomers are based in Faslane, and the old SSNs are dumped at Rosyth to irradiate their surroundings there.

*The word is "Dane". And the question a how a Union can work when you have states of such hugely disparate size and wealth as the EU can also be applied to the UK.

And if the Tories have their way, we'll be pow-powing and kow-towing to THEM for every last penny when they dump Barnett.

Us Jocks, we're subsidy-junkies, don't y'know, old boy?

:doh: I can't believe I forgot Dane!

So we should have sited the 'bombers' (Yanks call them boomers; we're Brits - for the moment :greengrin ) somewhere where a nice Easterly could blow fallout over Edinburgh or Manchester? Faslane fits the bill strategically allowing the subs quick access to the Atlantic, and as I said if we want to have these weapons we have to keep them somewhere.
In the event of nuclear exchange with the old russkies it didn't matter where they were sited the whole island was a goner - Edinburgh would have been hit for its naval base, regional government HQ, Scottish army HQ, RAF Turnhouse, centre of the footballing world etc.
I don't think London would have escaped because it didn't have any SSBN's.

A nuclear accident releasing significant fallout is vanishingly unlikely, besides the 'English' managed to give 'themselves' the Chemical and Biological weapons reseach centre at Porton Down and the Atomic Weapons Establishment at Aldermaston - in the heart of Berkshire - among others; possibly not the safest of facilities? There were nuclear weapons stored at RAF (and probably USAF) facilities throughout Britain til relatively recently.


The point is though that the Scotland cannot decide alone who is in charge of their country. English people can. I don't see why Scotland should have a Government dictating the rules to them when they don't even get a full say in it. Yes we do have a devolved government but who makes all the key decisions... the one we never voted for.

London can't decide alone who is in charge either, nor can Cornwall or Northumberland - thats the point of a Union. I don't believe in any monolithic 'English' identity and voting block anymore than I believe theres a Scottish one; we all respond in similiar ways to similar macro issues, we've been stuck on this island together too long for it to be otherwise.

Maybe the answer could be to break the Union down into a Federal structure of small states for the local stuff - I've more than once heard complaints that the Highlands and the Islands are unhappy being ruled from Edinburgh - with a Federal government dealing with the big issues.
Never going to happen of course.

Anyway I'm off for the weekend enjoy the debate (if anyone else feels like defending old Brittannia :greengrin) cheers guys, its rare this stuff stays civil!

[--------]

Yes. If all 5 million people in Scotland ever came to the conclusion that they no longer wanted nuclear weapons then you could guarantee that that overwhelming majority of opinion would be reflected in Britain as a whole. We're not that different, them and us.
We share a largely common set of values and beliefs with our Southern neighbours and are influenced by very similar factors. If the entire population (or even a large majority) of the British population rejected nuclear weapons then they would be gone; or our leaders would be.



:doh: I can't believe I forgot Dane!

So we should have sited the 'bombers' (Yanks call them boomers; we're Brits - for the moment :greengrin ) somewhere where a nice Easterly could blow fallout over Edinburgh or Manchester? Faslane fits the bill strategically allowing the subs quick access to the Atlantic, and as I said if we want to have these weapons we have to keep them somewhere.

In the event of nuclear exchange with the old russkies it didn't matter where they were sited the whole island was a goner - Edinburgh would have been hit for its naval base, regional government HQ, Scottish army HQ, RAF Turnhouse, centre of the footballing world etc.
I don't think London would have escaped because it didn't have any SSBN's.

A nuclear accident releasing significant fallout is vanishingly unlikely, besides the 'English' managed to give 'themselves' the Chemical and Biological weapons reseach centre at Porton Down and the Atomic Weapons Establishment at Aldermaston - in the heart of Berkshire - among others; possibly not the safest of facilities? There were nuclear weapons stored at RAF (and probably USAF) facilities throughout Britain til relatively recently.

London can't decide alone who is in charge either, nor can Cornwall or Northumberland - thats the point of a Union. I don't believe in any monolithic 'English' identity and voting block anymore than I believe theres a Scottish one; we all respond in similiar ways to similar macro issues, we've been stuck on this island together too long for it to be otherwise.

Maybe the answer could be to break the Union down into a Federal structure of small states for the local stuff - I've more than once heard complaints that the Highlands and the Islands are unhappy being ruled from Edinburgh - with a Federal government dealing with the big issues.

Never going to happen of course.

Anyway I'm off for the weekend enjoy the debate (if anyone else feels like defending old Brittannia :greengrin) cheers guys, its rare this stuff stays civil!


It's 'Britannia', barca....:devil:

If you love it that much, at least spell it correctly, mate. :wink:


I've never seen the point of us having weapons like Polaris or Trident which cost so much and which we're never going to be allowed to use unless our Yanqui masters give us permission. (And the day they do, it'll be too late anyway.)

IMO those boats are nothing more than the PM's big dick.

I'm interested that you seem attracted to the idea of a federated UK. I grew up in East Lothian. In the 1690's and early 1700's (when the Treaty of Union was being negotiated between Westminster and Edinburgh) Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun (the next village to mine) advocated that arrangement, and argued very cogently for it.

A 'confederated Union', he said, would allow both nations to prosper in partnership, while in his view an 'incorporating Union' (which is what we got) would inevitably lead to the erosion of Scottish identity and culture, and a great deal of bitterness and bad feeling to follow.

Like many men raised in East Lothian (modest and self-effacing smilie) Fletcher was a very wise and able man.

It's a pity no one listened to him, but then, to politicians, money sings louder than truth.

[Future17]

Yes. If all 5 million people in Scotland ever came to the conclusion that they no longer wanted nuclear weapons then you could guarantee that that overwhelming majority of opinion would be reflected in Britain as a whole. We're not that different, them and us.
We share a largely common set of values and beliefs with our Southern neighbours and are influenced by very similar factors. If the entire population (or even a large majority) of the British population rejected nuclear weapons then they would be gone; or our leaders would be.


Sorry, you misunderstand my point, probably due to my poor wording.

If the entire population of Scotland voted to no longer have a nuclear "detterent" located in Scotland, it would still be here - and you can bet nobody else in the union would agree with us!!

[Hibrandenburg]

Fat Gordie isn't parking HIS nuclear deterrant anywhere. He's parking OUR nuclear deterrent in a nice, out of the way spot. If we're going to have it we have to park it somewhere.

I personally don't consider London to be a foreign city. I and half my family have lived there at one time for a start.

And ask a someone from Denmark* how they feel about having to kow-tow to Paris and Berlin whenever they fancy a pow-wow. As a mechanism for preventing the Germans marching on Verdun again the EU is a great success, but it can't ever be a real political union when there are states of such disparate size and influence with mutually exclusive histories. I don't get the eagerness to break the Union only to join the EU, unless ALL the nations are going to break into smaller states.

* Denmarkian? Danian? :dunno:

What a heaving pile of steaming racist kack!

[sKipper]

i want to know if the Union flag will change, and if the names Britain and UK will change :confused:

The Union flag is the flag of the United Kingdom from the Union of the Crowns in 1603.

The SNP are seeking to break thequite separate political Union with Westminster formed in 1707.

People forget Scotland was independent inside the UK for over a hundred years. Course Labour hush this up as it doesn't fit with their separatist theories.

Under independence the UK would become ; The United Kingdom of 'Scotland ,England and Northern Ireland' instead of the present 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. It would still actually be feasible to retain our UK Passports ( they are not GB passports ) though I suspect there would be a demand for a Scottish passport.

Anyway, the Union flag would actually remain in place unless there was another future referendum to boot out the Royals.

[sKipper]

If Scotland becomes independent what will happen to the armed forces?

Wouldn't take much to split them. There are already Scottish infantry and armoured regiments in place. There are also air strips and naval bases.

We would be due circa 10% of hardware, ie aircraft, destroyers, tanks etc.

We would not want or need anything nuclear.

[number7]

Such a fine example of a Nationalist, "like it or lump it". Imagine the outrage if the same sentiment was adopted towards Scotland's ethnic minorities. The reassuring thing for me is that if/when a referendum happens, common sense will prevail. I reckon most sensible Scots can look beyond these rascist, small minded, bitter individuals who dress themselves up as Scottish Nationalists.

I'd love if you were calling me these things to my face, you rude *******.

[sKipper]

I'd love if you were calling me these things to my face, you rude *******.

Ignore him mate. You know when he resorts to that nonsense he has lost the argument.


He's actually quite a good example of one of his own 'small minded, bitter individuals'.

[sKipper]

Such a fine example of a Nationalist, "like it or lump it". Imagine the outrage if the same sentiment was adopted towards Scotland's ethnic minorities. The reassuring thing for me is that if/when a referendum happens, common sense will prevail. I reckon most sensible Scots can look beyond these rascist, small minded, bitter individuals who dress themselves up as Scottish Nationalists.

Interesting.

Is this a fine example of a Unionist ? :dunno:

[number7]

Ignore him mate. You know when he resorts to that nonsense he has lost the argument.


He's actually quite a good example of one of his own 'small minded, bitter individuals'.

Too true.

[Pete]

Such a fine example of a Nationalist, "like it or lump it". Imagine the outrage if the same sentiment was adopted towards Scotland's ethnic minorities. The reassuring thing for me is that if/when a referendum happens, common sense will prevail. I reckon most sensible Scots can look beyond these rascist, small minded, bitter individuals who dress themselves up as Scottish Nationalists.

There would be an outcry and every left-wing sociology graduate on here would be up in arms crying racist.

Some of the comments I have read on this thread..from respected posters..are pretty damn offensive.

[sKipper]

There would be an outcry and every left-wing sociology graduate on here would be up in arms crying racist.

Some of the comments I have read on this thread..from respected posters..are pretty damn offensive.

Yep, Corrie Greens surprised me with his bitteness aswell. :cool2:

[steakbake]

look at it another way - if you are a scottish nationalist and believe yourself to be scottish, not british, then under current conditions you have to "like or lump" the fact you carry a UK passport.

indeed, if you are a british nationalist and are ferverently anti-EU, you have to like or lump the fact that The European Union is named first on your passport and not the United Kingdom.

incidentally, i think the terminology for the "UK" might change, but dont find the idea of Gt. Britain particularly difficult to accept as it is the geographical name for the island we share with england and wales. very much like denmark is in scandinavia, croatia is in the balkans etc etc.

its nae exactly rocket science to figure it all out and not too tricky to change.

personally, i think when the time comes, you will be able to hold dual nationalities or more as is currently the standing with regards to the Irish Republic.

Britain would also be a common travel area, like it has with the Irish Republic meaning John Reid's prediction of border guards and barbed wire at gretna is just the usual new labour scare machine.

[Pete]

Yep, Corrie Greens surprised me with his bitteness aswell. :cool2:

Perhaps...but it sounding like there was bitterness coming from the other direction too.

If you live in an independant Scotland and consider yourself British then you:

"Have to be Scottish and like it"

"Like it or **** off"

"can feel free to move abroad, you won't be missed"

"close the door behind you on your way home"


What about people who consider themselves to be muslim first then Scottish. Does the same apply to them?

[degenerated]

The Union flag is the flag of the United Kingdom from the Union of the Crowns in 1603.

The SNP are seeking to break thequite separate political Union with Westminster formed in 1707.

People forget Scotland was independent inside the UK for over a hundred years. Course Labour hush this up as it doesn't fit with their separatist theories.

Under independence the UK would become ; The United Kingdom of 'Scotland ,England and Northern Ireland' instead of the present 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. It would still actually be feasible to retain our UK Passports ( they are not GB passports ) though I suspect there would be a demand for a Scottish passport.

Anyway, the Union flag would actually remain in place unless there was another future referendum to boot out the Royals.

now that's my sort of referendum. get rid of these parasites and timewasters once and for all.

[number7]

Such a fine example of a Nationalist, "like it or lump it". Imagine the outrage if the same sentiment was adopted towards Scotland's ethnic minorities. The reassuring thing for me is that if/when a referendum happens, common sense will prevail. I reckon most sensible Scots can look beyond these rascist, small minded, bitter individuals who dress themselves up as Scottish Nationalists.

This is a rediculous comparison to make anyway, there is no reason to make this other than to to try and put a slanderous spin on a perfectly legitimate and reasonable political viewpoint. I (or any other nationalists that i know)dont down anyone whos views are not for independence; however those who oppose this idea do, as your response demonstrates. It shows desperation and a lack of any feasible argument to respond with. We hear it all the time, in a way i feel sorry for you, its kind of childish.

[cabbageandribs1875]

now that's my sort of referendum. get rid of these parasites and timewasters once and for all.....

i remember ecky salmond stating that the SNP would keep the parasites as heads of state:bitchy: no idea if he just said that as a "sweetner" to the voters(i'm going back approx 8 years here:greengrin) then i found this article http://www.centreforcitizenship.org/weblogs/archives/2007_04.html (last one down) he obviously ain't too keen on a republic. and while i'm at it, i still cant fathom out why on earth prescription charges are getting phased out in scotland :dunno: wheres the money coming from to allow this, will the SNP be the first party to use the scottish parliament's power to increase income tax in scotland :grr: the money they are using to allow no prescription charges would/could/should be put towards something that has been at the top of there previous election campaigns for a long time............reducing the freakin council tax :brickwall or getting shot of it altogether, i certainly wouldn't mind paying an extra 1p/2p/3p/ in the pound income tax for that :agree:

[puff the dragon]

Wouldn't take much to split them. There are already Scottish infantry and armoured regiments in place. There are also air strips and naval bases.

We would be due circa 10% of hardware, ie aircraft, destroyers, tanks etc.

We would not want or need anything nuclear.

We could always train with stones, just like they did in Braveheart!! That'll stop rogue nations launching a nuclear strike on us??

Face it, if Iran dropped a nuclear bomb on London, killing millions and our Queen, the first thing 99% of you "anti nuclear" folk will be calling for is a full on strike to obliterate Tehran from the face of the map. You should be proud that the weapons defending us are housed here.

Some more questions for nationalists:
1) What about the non-Scots who now live and pay taxes here, will they get a vote in the referendum (seeing as it's likely to be against nationalism).
2) If Glasgow, Edinburgh and the Borders overwhelmingly vote against nationalism (which they will), should they then get the chance to stay in the UK and make the nationalist heartlands in the north a "Northern Scotland", much like the Irish island? Perhaps everyhing south of Fife could be known as "Southern Scotland" or "British Scotland". I don't think a wall will be necessarcy in this day and age, however we may need to adopt a new flag. Maybe put a crown or lion in the middle of the saltire.
3) Shetland don't want to be part of Scotland or the UK, should we give them freedom?
4) How much will embassies cost around the world?
5) Will the oil ever run out?

[degenerated]

We could always train with stones, just like they did in Braveheart!! That'll stop rogue nations launching a nuclear strike on us??

Face it, if Iran dropped a nuclear bomb on London, killing millions and our Queen,


that's where you lost me i'm afraid. she's not my queen - she's a spongeing cow as are the rest of her inbred family

[LiverpoolHibs]

that's where you lost me i'm afraid. she's not my queen - she's a spongeing cow as are the rest of her inbred family
Ha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed that slightly bizarre phrasing.

[puff the dragon]

that's where you lost me i'm afraid. she's not my queen - she's a spongeing cow as are the rest of her inbred family

I'm afraid to tell you that's not really your choice.

You live in her country, carry her passport, spend her currency, elect her government etc... She's your Queen.

[lucky]

I think the SNP can be summed up by what has been announced recently over the new ships for the navy. Jobs created and saved in Rosyth and on the Clyde with work being shared through out the UK and the decision over the 38 news trains for Scotland being built in Germany when they could easily have been built in Derby. Its this anti Englishness that the Nat's have which sticks in throat.
Also if Scotland became independent what would the currency be? If it stays the pound then it will controlled by the Bank of England and as such we would have handed fiscal power to another country with no say. Or if we applied and got accepted to the EU and then got the Euro we again would have no control.

Independence for me carries more risk than its worth. The nationalist have failed to answer most questions on the future. They keep telling us that everything will be better under the SNP but don't tell us how.

[danhibees1875]

On the currency issue it coldnt really be that hard to make a new currency. The 'scottish pound' for instance.

Then like countrys who adopted to the euro, shops etc would accept the old currency for a few years.

:dunno:

[deek]

I'm afraid to tell you that's not really your choice.

You live in her country, carry her passport, spend her currency, elect her government etc... She's your Queen.


Now you get the picture, at last, see even you are now giving valid points for independence thank you :thumbsup:

She may well remain as head of state to start with but everything has to have a starting point. The doubters of an independent state are just scared of change. No need to be afraid, just stop listening to the scare mongers of the dark side.

[puff the dragon]

On the currency issue it coldnt really be that hard to make a new currency. The 'scottish pound' for instance.

Then like countrys who adopted to the euro, shops etc would accept the old currency for a few years.

:dunno:

It would have to be the British pound or the Euro. A new currency would be foolish. - Do you want to have to rely on exchange rates etc to travel to Newcastle??

I suppose it won't be an issue for most nationalists as a large proportion refuse to go to England because they hate the English!

[puff the dragon]

Now you get the picture, at last, see even you are now giving valid points for independence thank you :thumbsup:

She may well remain as head of state to start with but everything has to have a starting point. The doubters of an independent state are just scared of change. No need to be afraid, just stop listening to the scare mongers of the dark side.

What has the Queen done to harm you?

[steakbake]

It would have to be the British pound or the Euro. A new currency would be foolish. - Do you want to have to rely on exchange rates etc to travel to Newcastle??

I suppose it won't be an issue for most nationalists as a large proportion refuse to go to England because they hate the English!

What are you on about?

Has the scottish cringe got so bad for you that you think anyone who wants to see scotland running its own affairs is therefore, a racist?

[steakbake]

We could always train with stones, just like they did in Braveheart!! That'll stop rogue nations launching a nuclear strike on us??

Face it, if Iran dropped a nuclear bomb on London, killing millions and our Queen, the first thing 99% of you "anti nuclear" folk will be calling for is a full on strike to obliterate Tehran from the face of the map. You should be proud that the weapons defending us are housed here.

Some more questions for nationalists:
1) What about the non-Scots who now live and pay taxes here, will they get a vote in the referendum (seeing as it's likely to be against nationalism).
2) If Glasgow, Edinburgh and the Borders overwhelmingly vote against nationalism (which they will), should they then get the chance to stay in the UK and make the nationalist heartlands in the north a "Northern Scotland", much like the Irish island? Perhaps everyhing south of Fife could be known as "Southern Scotland" or "British Scotland". I don't think a wall will be necessarcy in this day and age, however we may need to adopt a new flag. Maybe put a crown or lion in the middle of the saltire.
3) Shetland don't want to be part of Scotland or the UK, should we give them freedom?
4) How much will embassies cost around the world?
5) Will the oil ever run out?

You are trying to answer your own questions in a negative way. You've already made your mind up, so why ask?

1. Yes non Scots will of course get a vote in the same way they currently do in the Parliamentary elections. Its a bit of an assumption to make that they will all vote against it.

2. Voting in regions - much like the Scotland Act referendum, Shetland voted Yes/No (I believe) and Orkney voted Yes/No, but the overall vote in favour brought us devolution with tax varying powers. I think any referendum would be the same. If, as you suggest, Borders, Glasgow and Edinburgh voted against it, then I would imagine that would be the result as that is where the majority of the population live - the central belt. I'm not sure the Highlands would be able to find a mystery million or so to skew the result to the situation you have outlined rather bizarrely. Still, don't let logic get in the way of an anti Scottish rant, eh?

3. You'd have to ask shetland about that but I'd say that it comes under the UN article on the right to self determination.

4. Probably the same goes for us as it does for many countries. The man in the street probably thinks a country needs an embassy in every single country in the world and that is therefore expensive. Simply not the case. Many are approaching a hub and spoke approach where there is a main central mission with spokes being the ability to attend meetings in other countries at short notice or to deal with visa and immigration applications from that country. Such a good idea that even our own HM Government has managed to understand that this is a good plan. Indeed, many countries share facilities. In some countries, the UK outsources it's biometric information gathering for visa applications to Dutch and German embassies as they have the technology that we dont. Essentially, you put embassies and resources into them where there is a particularly strong connection or need to do business with that country. Would there be a Scottish Mission in Mongolia, Botswana, Nicaragua, Moldova - I doubt it and for the costs sake, I very much hope not. Would we have one in Japan, China, United States, South Africa - probably so.

5. Haven't you heard? - the oil will run out. It will run out for everyone.


So here is a question for Unionists,

If you are all for unionism, what is the limit of your vision - do you wish to see a full political and economic union with the rest of Europe? Why won't people in the UK take the Euro? Surely if everyone else is doing it, it is narrow and nationalistic to insist on using your own? And what about the defence force? Surely if we are going to have an effective defence force, we need other countries to have a strong army which might deter any invading force, so why don't we concentrate our resources and have a single European army? It also really annoys some folks that there are so many levels of government - why shouldn't all the power be concentrated in Brussels under a single european presidency and executive? Surely taking the logic of a union to it's conclusion, many unionists are in the awkward position of having to explain why a union is good in some cases (the UK), but are a bit sketchy when it might involve "foreigners" - gads, especially the germans! imagine that.

"Unionism" is a disingenuous name.

There are british nationalists and scottish nationalists.

[degenerated]

I'm afraid to tell you that's not really your choice.

You live in her country, carry her passport, spend her currency, elect her government etc... She's your Queen.

it's entirely my choice. i never have and never will pledge allegiance to the crown.

i might live in a country that has been subjugated by them and spend currency with a picture of her on it but i dont carry her passport. she might be your queen but she aint mine, her and her parasitical family mean absolutely ****** all to me.

[New Corrie]

You are trying to answer your own questions in a negative way. You've already made your mind up, so why ask?

1. Yes non Scots will of course get a vote in the same way they currently do in the Parliamentary elections. Its a bit of an assumption to make that they will all vote against it.

2. Voting in regions - much like the Scotland Act referendum, Shetland voted Yes/No (I believe) and Orkney voted Yes/No, but the overall vote in favour brought us devolution with tax varying powers. I think any referendum would be the same. If, as you suggest, Borders, Glasgow and Edinburgh voted against it, then I would imagine that would be the result as that is where the majority of the population live - the central belt. I'm not sure the Highlands would be able to find a mystery million or so to skew the result to the situation you have outlined rather bizarrely. Still, don't let logic get in the way of an anti Scottish rant, eh?

3. You'd have to ask shetland about that but I'd say that it comes under the UN article on the right to self determination.

4. Probably the same goes for us as it does for many countries. The man in the street probably thinks a country needs an embassy in every single country in the world and that is therefore expensive. Simply not the case. Many are approaching a hub and spoke approach where there is a main central mission with spokes being the ability to attend meetings in other countries at short notice or to deal with visa and immigration applications from that country. Such a good idea that even our own HM Government has managed to understand that this is a good plan. Indeed, many countries share facilities. In some countries, the UK outsources it's biometric information gathering for visa applications to Dutch and German embassies as they have the technology that we dont. Essentially, you put embassies and resources into them where there is a particularly strong connection or need to do business with that country. Would there be a Scottish Mission in Mongolia, Botswana, Nicaragua, Moldova - I doubt it and for the costs sake, I very much hope not. Would we have one in Japan, China, United States, South Africa - probably so.

5. Haven't you heard? - the oil will run out. It will run out for everyone.


So here is a question for Unionists,

If you are all for unionism, what is the limit of your vision - do you wish to see a full political and economic union with the rest of Europe? Why won't people in the UK take the Euro? Surely if everyone else is doing it, it is narrow and nationalistic to insist on using your own? And what about the defence force? Surely if we are going to have an effective defence force, we need other countries to have a strong army which might deter any invading force, so why don't we concentrate our resources and have a single European army? It also really annoys some folks that there are so many levels of government - why shouldn't all the power be concentrated in Brussels under a single european presidency and executive? Surely taking the logic of a union to it's conclusion, many unionists are in the awkward position of having to explain why a union is good in some cases (the UK), but are a bit sketchy when it might involve "foreigners" - gads, especially the germans! imagine that.

"Unionism" is a disingenuous name.

There are british nationalists and scottish nationalists.

You are right, and there's a British National Party and a Scottish National Party....one lot hate immigrants and the other lot hate the English. Just slightly different types of Racism.

[number7]

[/B]

You are right, and there's a British National Party and a Scottish National Party....one lot hate immigrants and the other lot hate the English. Just slightly different types of Racism.

I think you need sectioned. :hahaha:

[LiverpoolHibs]

[/b]

You are right, and there's a British National Party and a Scottish National Party....one lot hate immigrants and the other lot hate the English. Just slightly different types of Racism.

I'm an Englishman living in Scotland and know alot of Scottish nationalists, I can honestly say that I've never felt hated in their company.

You are truly off your head

[New Corrie]

I think you need sectioned. :hahaha:

It's you who needs sectioned if you believe there is no anti English sentiment within the SNP. And they say Hearts fans are deluded.

[sKipper]

It's you who needs sectioned if you believe there is no anti English sentiment within the SNP. And they say Hearts fans are deluded.

In all my years I have never come across any. :agree:

Just because you wish it to be so it doesn't mean it exists.

I wouldn't say you were deluded, just a slavering idiot.

[New Corrie]

In all my years I have never come across any. :agree:

Just because you wish it to be so it doesn't mean it exists.

I wouldn't say you were deluded, just a slavering idiot.


This just gets better and better, pray believe me it's you who is a Rod Laver.

Hilarious, no anti English sentiment within the SNP, next you'll be telling me there's no bigots following the Old Firm.

[sKipper]

This just gets better and better, pray believe me it's you who is a Rod Laver.

Hilarious, no anti English sentiment within the SNP, next you'll be telling me there's no bigots following the Old Firm.

No I won't be telling you that as it wouldn't be true. My comment above was.

As an aside, you seem to be the most anti everything on this thread.
Far more so than the SNP lads.

[deek]

[/B]

You are right, and there's a British National Party and a Scottish National Party....one lot hate immigrants and the other lot hate the English. Just slightly different types of Racism.

Just because people of a nation want to rule their own destiny, does not mean that the reason for this is that they hate anyone. Grow up and look past your own nose.

[steakbake]

[/B]

You are right, and there's a British National Party and a Scottish National Party....one lot hate immigrants and the other lot hate the English. Just slightly different types of Racism.

I know you would like it to be true because everyone hates a racist, but it's so wide of the mark it just makes you look totally ignorant.

I often wonder with people like you - and some of those in my own family, I hasten to add.

I bet you'd like to think you would fit in really well in a Conservative Party Association dinner in their heartlands. Full of mollifying statements about how we're all in it together, how you're proud to be a brit. All the while, they are thinking - my god, here's some jock who supports the Tories! You'd probably really enjoy agreeing with them that all the money is coming up north and that a Scotsman has no right to be PM of the UK and all that malarky that you find at the grassroots of Toryism. It should suit your Scottish cringe very well. It's like finding a turkey who enjoys Christmas.

[New Corrie]

I know you would like it to be true because everyone hates a racist, but it's so wide of the mark it just makes you look totally ignorant.

I often wonder with people like you - and some of those in my own family, I hasten to add.

I bet you'd like to think you would fit in really well in a Conservative Party Association dinner in their heartlands. Full of mollifying statements about how we're all in it together, how you're proud to be a brit. All the while, they are thinking - my god, here's some jock who supports the Tories! You'd probably really enjoy agreeing with them that all the money is coming up north and that a Scotsman has no right to be PM of the UK and all that malarky that you find at the grassroots of Toryism. It should suit your Scottish cringe very well. It's like finding a turkey who enjoys Christmas.

I rest my case....just like you would probably enjoy an evening with Jock McTattie whinging about how all these nasty English people stole your oil and that the BBC always refer to successful Scots as Brits. I know which dinner party I would rather be at. Anyway, dream on, that fat Hearts muppet and his cohorts can bleat all they want.....your independent utopia is not going to happen.

[Future17]

This just gets better and better, pray believe me it's you who is a Rod Laver.

Hilarious, no anti English sentiment within the SNP, next you'll be telling me there's no bigots following the Old Firm.

You don't have to be anti-English to be pro-Scottish or pro-Scottish independence.

I would imagine an independent Scotland would have a significant number of English nationals residing in it happily, just as the current devolved Scotland does.

The only thing I've ever known the SNP to be "anti" along those lines is anti-Westmister government, as they believe Scotland is governed by a parliament that sits in a foreign country. There are plenty of people (Scottish and English) who don't like the idea of a European government, based in a foreign country, making decisions which affect Britain.

The last two Prime Ministers of Britain have been Scottish, but the SNP haven't changed their position on independence because it's not an Englishman/woman in charge. Nationality has practically nothing to do with it and it worries me that you seem to genuinely think otherwise.

Of course, you are going to encounter people who hold anti-English views who have jumped on the independence bandwagon perhaps for that reason, but they are in a tiny minority. I've heard racist remarks made in the East Stand before - that doesn't make Hibs a racist club.

[lucky]

The biggest fear within Scotland over independence is the ability of Scotland to run its own affairs. The talent presently at Holyrood (all parties) is akin to our midfield. There are very few politicians of talent that can run our country well. I also believe that that investment in our country would drop dramatically as we would outside the EU and have to agree trading rules with other current partners.

The Scottish currency is also one of the major issue that so far no one has answered. The Scottish pound set and controlled by Holyrood would be new and subject to massive fluctuations for several years. The value of it would be interesting, its not that long ago the tabloids were running stories that exchange rate shops in Prague were giving 10% less for Scottish notes than English.

The risks of independence out way any potential benefits. As such Scotland will stay part of the UK and remain 90 minute nationalist (small n intended)

[GlesgaeHibby]

You don't have to be anti-English to be pro-Scottish or pro-Scottish independence.

I would imagine an independent Scotland would have a significant number of English nationals residing in it happily, just as the current devolved Scotland does.

The only thing I've ever known the SNP to be "anti" along those lines is anti-Westmister government, as they believe Scotland is governed by a parliament that sits in a foreign country. There are plenty of people (Scottish and English) who don't like the idea of a European government, based in a foreign country, making decisions which affect Britain.

The last two Prime Ministers of Britain have been Scottish, but the SNP haven't changed their position on independence because it's not an Englishman/woman in charge. Nationality has practically nothing to do with it and it worries me that you seem to genuinely think otherwise.

Of course, you are going to encounter people who hold anti-English views who have jumped on the independence bandwagon perhaps for that reason, but they are in a tiny minority. I've heard racist remarks made in the East Stand before - that doesn't make Hibs a racist club.

:confused:

[sKipper]

:confused:

He's right.

Balir is actually Scottish though it was hard to tell :greengrin

[Mikey_1875]

Corrie Greens you seem to think everyone's reason for independence is to get away from the English without actually considering and debating the points for independence made on this thread and from the SNP party. You haven't actually gave any decent reasons to stay in Britain on this thread all you've done if offend people by branding them racists. It would appear that you are the ignorant one imo and not the "racist" nationalists. Sure a minority will want indepedence just to get away but you just seem to tar everyone under the same brush.

[steakbake]

I rest my case....just like you would probably enjoy an evening with Jock McTattie whinging about how all these nasty English people stole your oil and that the BBC always refer to successful Scots as Brits. I know which dinner party I would rather be at. Anyway, dream on, that fat Hearts muppet and his cohorts can bleat all they want.....your independent utopia is not going to happen.

See - you just cant help yourself from hating the SNP. You are totally rabid and unreasonable about them - its almost like the old proverbial thing about a closeted gay man is usually the most bigotted. Perhaps you're a closet nationalist, just clinging to being a british nationalist because the alternative makes you feel too dirty??:wink: Incidentally, the Greens and others also support independence, so your crusade against the SNP might need to be expanded to personal insults about their leaders.

I spend a lot of time in England in rural Berkshire and Oxfordshire. To a man, they are either Tory or independent voters, traditional conservatives with conservative values. These are usually seats where the Tories have been representing them for generations.

After explaining my position to them (usually over a very good vintage wine and some freshly farmed roast) i find that people generally understand and accept the situation as not being an anti-english thing but more about having the opportunity to run your own affairs.

As tories, they seem to like the idea of responsibility, small governance etc. Yes - I do have to put up with the usual Tory lines about massively subsidised jocks etc, Scottish MPs and all that but I find they do appreciate that the SNP/Greens/pro-independence parties have a point.

We might not agree with each other, but once they actually listen and accept that there are people who think that a United Kingdom is not necessarily always the best way to organise ourselves politically (hint there for you), they can understand it.

I have never felt from them that they think I am anti-English.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Corrie Greens you seem to think everyone's reason for independence is to get away from the English without actually considering and debating the points for independence made on this thread and from the SNP party. You haven't actually gave any decent reasons to stay in Britain on this thread all you've done if offend people by branding them racists. It would appear that you are the ignorant one imo and not the "racist" nationalists. Sure a minority will want indepedence just to get away but you just seem to tar everyone under the same brush.

Just as he does in every single argument on here...

[lucky]

See - you just cant help yourself from hating the SNP. You are totally rabid and unreasonable about them - its almost like the old proverbial thing about a closeted gay man is usually the most bigotted. Perhaps you're a closet nationalist, just clinging to being a british nationalist because the alternative makes you feel too dirty??:wink: Incidentally, the Greens and others also support independence, so your crusade against the SNP might need to be expanded to personal insults about their leaders.

I spend a lot of time in England in rural Berkshire and Oxfordshire. To a man, they are either Tory or independent voters, traditional conservatives with conservative values. These are usually seats where the Tories have been representing them for generations.

After explaining my position to them (usually over a very good vintage wine and some freshly farmed roast) i find that people generally understand and accept the situation as not being an anti-english thing but more about having the opportunity to run your own affairs.

As tories, they seem to like the idea of responsibility, small governance etc. Yes - I do have to put up with the usual Tory lines about massively subsidised jocks etc, Scottish MPs and all that but I find they do appreciate that the SNP/Greens/pro-independence parties have a point.

We might not agree with each other, but once they actually listen and accept that there are people who think that a United Kingdom is not necessarily always the best way to organise ourselves politically (hint there for you), they can understand it.

I have never felt from them that they think I am anti-English.

You may not be anti English but some of your views are very anti working class. you may even find amusing that you try to hide your fascist views but still cant help yourself with the rubbish about being from Mosley.

[degenerated]

You may not be anti English but some of your views are very anti working class. you may even find amusing that you try to hide your fascist views but still cant help yourself with the rubbish about being from Mosley.

i might be being stupid here, but doesnt he say he is from mos eisley which is place in star wars or star trek or something like that. :confused:

[steakbake]

You may not be anti English but some of your views are very anti working class. you may even find amusing that you try to hide your fascist views but still cant help yourself with the rubbish about being from Mosley.

Anti-working class. Get it sorted.

Mosley?? Mos Eisley - as in the cantina in Star Wars?

Surely you're not too socialist to have watched that bit of American imperialism?

[sKipper]

i might be being stupid here, but doesnt he say he is from mos eisley which is place in star wars or star trek or something like that. :confused:



:thumbsup:

Lucky in talking absolute ***** mode again :greengrin

[barcahibs]

It's 'Britannia', barca....:devil:

If you love it that much, at least spell it correctly, mate. :wink:



:greengrin Blame the Scottish edukashion system! I was educated by a series of teachers who believed that enforcing spelling and grammar rules 'stifled the childs creativity' :yawn: One of my biggest regrets is the poor command of the written language I have as a result.



I've never seen the point of us having weapons like Polaris or Trident which cost so much and which we're never going to be allowed to use unless our Yanqui masters give us permission. (And the day they do, it'll be too late anyway.)

IMO those boats are nothing more than the PM's big dick.

I'm interested that you seem attracted to the idea of a federated UK. I grew up in East Lothian. In the 1690's and early 1700's (when the Treaty of Union was being negotiated between Westminster and Edinburgh) Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun (the next village to mine) advocated that arrangement, and argued very cogently for it.

A 'confederated Union', he said, would allow both nations to prosper in partnership, while in his view an 'incorporating Union' (which is what we got) would inevitably lead to the erosion of Scottish identity and culture, and a great deal of bitterness and bad feeling to follow.

Like many men raised in East Lothian (modest and self-effacing smilie) Fletcher was a very wise and able man.

It's a pity no one listened to him, but then, to politicians, money sings louder than truth.

The possesion or otherwise of nuclear weapons is a different debate and one that I can see both sides of. I agree that it seems pointless having these weapons whose expressed function is that just by exisiting they ensure they can never be used.
On the other hand there is the argument that they have kept the peace (in Europe) for the last 50 years.
Plus the fact that throughout human history 'might proves right' may as well be our species motto. I'd rather we had that might than anyone else.

Contrary to common belief by the way we do have full independent control facilities for our nuclear weapons; they can be targetted and fired without American permission; the problem comes with obtaining more of the American supplied missiles (we make our own warheads) after we've used them.
The yanks are unlikely to supply us with more if they feel we're going to throw them around willy-nilly - which is fair enough when you think about it, if it comes to a situation where even the Americans don't want to use that sort of force then we probably shouldn't be either.
Incidentally according to the terms of the Quebec agreement of 1943 the Americans can't use nuclear weapons without our consent. :greengrin

I have heard of Andrew Fletcher but I must confess I seem to have forgotten any details! Thanks for pointing me in his direction he's someone I'm definately going to try and read up on a confederated union sounds like exactly what I mean.


Sorry, you misunderstand my point, probably due to my poor wording.

If the entire population of Scotland voted to no longer have a nuclear "detterent" located in Scotland, it would still be here - and you can bet nobody else in the union would agree with us!!

Apologies its my reply thats confusing.
What I'm trying to say is that I don't believe the situation could ever arise where all of Scotland rejects nuclear weapons but the rest of the union disagrees. We share the same broad political and moral beliefs, theres no sudden change when you cross the border.
If everyone north of Berwick rejects nuclear weapons then so will everyone to the South. (Berwick in this situation can then set itself up as an independent nuclear power :greengrin)


What a heaving pile of steaming racist kack!


Apologies for the flippant way I expressed that, I keep forgetting we're not allowed a sense of humour anymore. :greengrin

What I mean of course is that IMO the EU is primarily a means of helping to keep the peace and has been extremely succesful in that regard. I could as well have made some remark about keeping the French out of Belgium.

The phrase itself by the way came from an essay I read years ago that attempted to show that all of French foreign policy since 1916 from Versailles to the occupation of the Ruhr; to the Maginot line and the collapse of 1940 and ultimately to the EU itself was designed to prevent another Verdun, an event so shattering to the French that they would go to any lengths to prevent a repetition. I seem to remember that I wasn't convinced, but the phrase itself has always stuck in my mind.

[degenerated]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zO5leiwEiTM

sounds a bit like someone on here :wink:

[RyeSloan]

Shame that a lot of the serious stuff has been drowned out by the name calling but as ever this seems quite an emotive subject!!

I'm struck again when reading an independence thread that the majority SNP view (if you want to call it that) is one of principal not practical.

I think the Nats are missing a trick here, if they could clearly spell out what an independent scotland would actually mean, how it would actually function (there seems to be no answer on even a bloomin currency for gawds sake) and why it would be so much better (not just 'it wont be run by westminster') then there could be a considerable, maybe unstoppable moevement towards Independence. This simply doesn't seem to be happening.

To me though the route to independence is much easier through 'creeping' devolution...progressive transfer of powers demostrated by progessive improvement on the weilding of those powers would be much more effective than any bitter drawn out referendum.

As for one posters cry for an independent socialist Scotland....one of the biggest reasons that Independence is not clamoured for by a large section of society IMHO is that they see this as a real possibility if we were set loose from the UK and what a total disaster it would be.

[lucky]

Anti-working class. Get it sorted.

Mosley?? Mos Eisley - as in the cantina in Star Wars?

Surely you're not too socialist to have watched that bit of American imperialism?

Just shows how others can perceive you. What is the problem with socialism?
Also not denying that you have fascists leanings.

[lucky]

:thumbsup:

Lucky in talking absolute ***** mode again :greengrin

thanks skippy for your thought provoking comments :greengrin

[lucky]

Shame that a lot of the serious stuff has been drowned out by the name calling but as ever this seems quite an emotive subject!!

I'm struck again when reading an independence thread that the majority SNP view (if you want to call it that) is one of principal not practical.

I think the Nats are missing a trick here, if they could clearly spell out what an independent scotland would actually mean, how it would actually function (there seems to be no answer on even a bloomin currency for gawds sake) and why it would be so much better (not just 'it wont be run by westminster') then there could be a considerable, maybe unstoppable moevement towards Independence. This simply doesn't seem to be happening.

To me though the route to independence is much easier through 'creeping' devolution...progressive transfer of powers demostrated by progessive improvement on the weilding of those powers would be much more effective than any bitter drawn out referendum.

As for one posters cry for an independent socialist Scotland....one of the biggest reasons that Independence is not clamoured for by a large section of society IMHO is that they see this as a real possibility if we were set loose from the UK and what a total disaster it would be.

agree with most of your post however I don't believe people are afraid of a socialist Scotland. People do not want to break up the UK. Also what wrong with socialism?

[steakbake]

Just shows how others can perceive you. What is the problem with socialism?
Also not denying that you have fascists leanings.

Aye, by others wearing their red tinted spectacles.

I'm not a fascist. I used to be a socialist believe it or not - Labour party member (as if they have anything to do with socialism anymore) for a few years and actively doorstepped for them.

Not any more.

[Future17]

Shame that a lot of the serious stuff has been drowned out by the name calling but as ever this seems quite an emotive subject!!

I'm struck again when reading an independence thread that the majority SNP view (if you want to call it that) is one of principal not practical.

I think the Nats are missing a trick here, if they could clearly spell out what an independent scotland would actually mean, how it would actually function (there seems to be no answer on even a bloomin currency for gawds sake) and why it would be so much better (not just 'it wont be run by westminster') then there could be a considerable, maybe unstoppable moevement towards Independence. This simply doesn't seem to be happening.

To me though the route to independence is much easier through 'creeping' devolution...progressive transfer of powers demostrated by progessive improvement on the weilding of those powers would be much more effective than any bitter drawn out referendum.

As for one posters cry for an independent socialist Scotland....one of the biggest reasons that Independence is not clamoured for by a large section of society IMHO is that they see this as a real possibility if we were set loose from the UK and what a total disaster it would be.

Good point in bold there! :agree:

As mentioned on your "what currency would an independent Scotland use?" thread, I think the SNP are currently occupied making their administration work for the benefit of the people they were elected by.

They'll produce their plan for an independent Scotland when a refferendum is nigh! :agree:

[RyeSloan]

Good point in bold there! :agree:

As mentioned on your "what currency would an independent Scotland use?" thread, I think the SNP are currently occupied making their administration work for the benefit of the people they were elected by.

They'll produce their plan for an independent Scotland when a refferendum is nigh! :agree:

Sure they might come up with something but does make you wonder what they have been doing all these years they have been out of office.....I still think that the time for debate is before any referendum...the politiking and point scoring that will go on before any vote will do little to clarify what an Independent Scotland will be.

As maybe you or others have said a referendum would be purely on if you want an indepenedent soctland not on what type of independent scotland you would get. This will cause a lot of people to vote NO as the fear of the unknown is always a big one.

[RyeSloan]

agree with most of your post however I don't believe people are afraid of a socialist Scotland. People do not want to break up the UK. Also what wrong with socialism?

If they are not afraid then they should be!!

I think the question should really be what is right with socialism...not exactly been the road map to a healthy, prosperous, productive and free society in the past has it.

Hugo Chavez for Scotland...no thanks.

[Future17]

Sure they might come up with something but does make you wonder what they have been doing all these years they have been out of office.....I still think that the time for debate is before any referendum...the politiking and point scoring that will go on before any vote will do little to clarify what an Independent Scotland will be.

As maybe you or others have said a referendum would be purely on if you want an indepenedent soctland not on what type of independent scotland you would get. This will cause a lot of people to vote NO as the fear of the unknown is always a big one.

I'm sure the SNP have spent every year of their existence debating internally as to what the exact workings of an independent Scotland would look like.

However, obviously the factors affecting these plans can change on a daily basis. So there wouldn't be much point publicly communicating these plans, only to have to retract, amend and re-issue them every couple of months when they would be considered irrelevant by the vast majority of the population as an independence vote isn't imminent.

The SNP presumably believe their time up until now has been better spent taking the smaller steps which will eventually lead to an independence refferendum.

Although the refferendum will likely be, as you have said, on whether or not the population of Scotland want an independent nation, the onus will lie primarily with the SNP to successfully prove the case for independence. I would imagine this will, by default, include their plans for being in power in an independent Scotland.

As you and some others have pointed out, a lack of information regarding what an independent Scotland would look like and what it would mean for the average Scottish citizen, would probably lead to a NO vote in a refferendum.

The SNP will be acutely aware of this and you can expect that when they start their campaign for a YES vote you will receive a barrage of information, both on the positives the SNP believe we will see in an independent Scotland and also on their response to all the negatives which will no doubt be raised by all parties opposed to independence.

[LiverpoolHibs]

If they are not afraid then they should be!!

I think the question should really be what is right with socialism...not exactly been the road map to a healthy, prosperous, productive and free society in the past has it.

Hugo Chavez for Scotland...no thanks.

That is over-simplified beyond belief.

[Part/Time Supporter]

If they are not afraid then they should be!!

I think the question should really be what is right with socialism...not exactly been the road map to a healthy, prosperous, productive and free society in the past has it.

Hugo Chavez for Scotland...no thanks.

Tage Erlander, Einar Gerhardsen, Goran Persson or Jens Stoltenberg, yes please.

[steakbake]

Tage Erlander, Einar Gerhardsen, Goran Persson or Jens Stoltenberg, yes please.

I would generally agree. Progressive socialism as seen in social democratic parties in Scandinavia is fairly good. But to rigidly base your entire governmental policy on a particular political theory is no way to run a country. Different things work for differing areas of governance.

Problem is, with exception of Norway, the voters in the past few years have turfed out the Social Democrats/Socialists in preference to Liberal/Conservative parties.

In 06, the Swedish left took the biggest hammering they have taken since 1920. Finland has gone Liberal/Conservative as well.

I was in Denmark when they voted out the Social Democrats in 2001 and while the shift in percentages seemed quite small, there was a lot of appetite for change as people had started to feel the country was stagnating.

[New Corrie]

Tage Erlander, Einar Gerhardsen, Goran Persson or Jens Stoltenberg, yes please.


To be fair Perrson is a bit injury prone, Erlander is past it and Hanlon is a far better left back than Stoltenberg.

[The cooler king]

If you get your wish and Scotland becomes independent, will I get the choice to remain British or will I have to join your clans etc??

You'll get the same option oor acestors got when you lot performed 'Ethnic cleansing' on our clans in the highland clearances.

[lucky]

I would generally agree. Progressive socialism as seen in social democratic parties in Scandinavia is fairly good. But to rigidly base your entire governmental policy on a particular political theory is no way to run a country. Different things work for differing areas of governance.

Problem is, with exception of Norway, the voters in the past few years have turfed out the Social Democrats/Socialists in preference to Liberal/Conservative parties.

In 06, the Swedish left took the biggest hammering they have taken since 1920. Finland has gone Liberal/Conservative as well.

I was in Denmark when they voted out the Social Democrats in 2001 and while the shift in percentages seemed quite small, there was a lot of appetite for change as people had started to feel the country was stagnating.

Progressive socialism/ social democratic view appears to be what the majority of Scotland want going with recent voting. However there are vary degrees of this in each party. However the pro Nationalist want this for Scotland only where the unionist parties want some form of it for the UK ( Tories exempt)

[EuanH78]

The point is though that the Scotland cannot decide alone who is in charge of their country. English people can. I don't see why Scotland should have a Government dictating the rules to them when they don't even get a full say in it. Yes we do have a devolved government but who makes all the key decisions... the one we never voted for.


This is a very good point and it has always been my main argument in favour of independence.

For a government to be successful it needs a healthy opposition party to counter it. Much like a rivalry might cause both players to raise their game.

Rightly or wrongly (IMO rightly) the conservative party is a political non-entity in Scotland and therefore they cannot reasonably be expected to represent 'us' at Westminster in either government or in opposition.
Therin lies the problem of the Union.

Independence is inevitable.

[lucky]

This is a very good point and it has always been my main argument in favour of independence.

For a government to be successful it needs a healthy opposition party to counter it. Much like a rivalry might cause both players to raise their game.

Rightly or wrongly (IMO rightly) the conservative party is a political non-entity in Scotland and therefore they cannot reasonably be expected to represent 'us' at Westminster in either government or in opposition.
Therin lies the problem of the Union.

Independence is inevitable.

I don't believe independence is inevitable. Around 70% of Scots opposed it. There would need to be a massive change in the opinion of Scots to for it to happen.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I don't believe independence is inevitable. Around 70% of Scots opposed it. There would need to be a massive change in the opinion of Scots to for it to happen....


i think it IS inevitable :greengrin once the tories are in power in westminster your 70% figure will greatly reduce, i despise everything about that b****** gordon brown, from his time as chancellor and his infatuation about taxing every damn thing going(not forgetting his record amount of stealth taxes) http://www.moneyweek.com/file/40205/how-britains-10-year-boom-is-turning-into-browns-bust.html

and his freakin arrogance in thinking he was always right http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1654931.ece

once labour are out of government in westminster i can see them being out for a few terms:agree: and i just cant see the people of scotland accepting a tory government in westminster ruling over us either :cool2:

[steakbake]

...


i think it IS inevitable :greengrin once the tories are in power in westminster your 70% figure will greatly reduce, i despise everything about that b****** gordon brown, from his time as chancellor and his infatuation about taxing every damn thing going(not forgetting his record amount of stealth taxes) http://www.moneyweek.com/file/40205/how-britains-10-year-boom-is-turning-into-browns-bust.html

and his freakin arrogance in thinking he was always right http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1654931.ece

once labour are out of government in westminster i can see them being out for a few terms:agree: and i just cant see the people of scotland accepting a tory government in westminster ruling over us either :cool2:

Least of all with the tories vote not really picking up north of the border.

I can see Glasgow East being very close - folks on the ground are saying there is probably not much more than 1000-1500 votes in it - it could still go either way. An SNP win would be an interesting turn of events - too close to call though.

From a 13000 majority to that - in their 3rd safest seat in the country.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but I am sure Scottish Labour and their pals in the media will be happy enough to say it is a stunning victory and a thorough rejection of the SNP.

[lucky]

Least of all with the tories vote not really picking up north of the border.

I can see Glasgow East being very close - folks on the ground are saying there is probably not much more than 1000-1500 votes in it - it could still go either way. An SNP win would be an interesting turn of events - too close to call though.

From a 13000 majority to that - in their 3rd safest seat in the country.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but I am sure Scottish Labour and their pals in the media will be happy enough to say it is a stunning victory and a thorough rejection of the SNP.

I have been in Glasgow East twice in last week. Labour are expecting to win with just over 2500. With a turn out of around 27%. whilst not spectacular any victory for a government in its third term with two unpopular wars going on and the country heading towards a recession is a decent result.

[steakbake]

I have been in Glasgow East twice in last week. Labour are expecting to win with just over 2500. With a turn out of around 27%. whilst not spectacular any victory for a government in its third term with two unpopular wars going on and the country heading towards a recession is a decent result.

Seriously, Lucky, please don't insult the people's intelligence! You're clearly a clever and decent guy but that is very disingenuous.

Is that the line that we're going to see from Eddie Barnes and co in the media on Friday? "A decent result for a third term government with 2 wars going on".

I suppose the full story of David Marshall's departure can wait till after the by-election then the self same media people will be dying to call it their exclusive!!

[Part/Time Supporter]

I don't believe independence is inevitable. Around 70% of Scots opposed it. There would need to be a massive change in the opinion of Scots to for it to happen.

Presumably this assertion is based on the SNP getting just over 30% of the vote in the 2007 election. How do you know that all the supposed "unionist" voters would vote against independence if asked the question?

For all you or I know, voters for other parties may favour independence but place greater importance on other issues. My dad always votes Tory but has said to me he would vote yes in a referendum. What we do know is that the SNP vote is the core favourable vote in any referendum. I don't see many SNP voters voting against an independence referendum. Therefore the SNP would only need to win 2/7 out of all other voters to win a referendum. That's not as difficult as it sounds.

[Future17]

I have been in Glasgow East twice in last week. Labour are expecting to win with just over 2500. With a turn out of around 27%. whilst not spectacular any victory for a government in its third term with two unpopular wars going on and the country heading towards a recession is a decent result.

:greengrin That's hilarious!

[lucky]

:greengrin That's hilarious!

In what way?

[Future17]

In what way?

In what is essentially a Labour heartland, the turnout is expected to have dropped from about 48% in 2005 to 27%?

Dropping from a majority of 12,507 to 2,500 would be considered a decent result?

I find that quite funny. Out of interest, if you are able to share, where did you get your info?

[steakbake]

In what is essentially a Labour heartland, the turnout is expected to have dropped from about 48% in 2005 to 27%?

Dropping from a majority of 12,507 to 2,500 would be considered a decent result?

I find that quite funny. Out of interest, if you are able to share, where did you get your info?

I note their chums in the press are already hailing the expected result. Curran "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat" says the Scotsman. What a new socialist heroine she truly will be!!

I particularly liked this article about a guy who joined the Labour campaign team for a week: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4362917.ece

Of particular amusement was:

After five days of campaigning, I finally got to meet the candidate...

I struggled to make smalltalk with her. The only thing we had in common was her most recent campaign leaflet, hundreds of which I had been shoving through letterboxes on her behalf — a personally signed letter in which she declared her commitment to the area.

“I am Glasgow born and bred. I have lived here through good times and bad,” it stated. “I am proud of what so many of us have done to improve our community, but we all know there is more to do.”

I congratulated her on the heartfelt commitment she had demonstrated to the people of the east end: “I really liked the new letter I was handing out the other day.”

She replied: “Somebody said, ‘Oh Margaret, I got your letter, thanks very much, it was brilliant.’ I don’t know what the letter says, but I’m sure it’s very good.”

[--------]

I note their chums in the press are already hailing the expected result. Curran "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat" says the Scotsman. What a new socialist heroine she truly will be!!

I particularly liked this article about a guy who joined the Labour campaign team for a week: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4362917.ece

Of particular amusement was:

After five days of campaigning, I finally got to meet the candidate...

I struggled to make smalltalk with her. The only thing we had in common was her most recent campaign leaflet, hundreds of which I had been shoving through letterboxes on her behalf — a personally signed letter in which she declared her commitment to the area.

“I am Glasgow born and bred. I have lived here through good times and bad,” it stated. “I am proud of what so many of us have done to improve our community, but we all know there is more to do.”

I congratulated her on the heartfelt commitment she had demonstrated to the people of the east end: “I really liked the new letter I was handing out the other day.”

She replied: “Somebody said, ‘Oh Margaret, I got your letter, thanks very much, it was brilliant.’ I don’t know what the letter says, but I’m sure it’s very good.”


How heartwarming. So close to the people she seeks to represent.

[Future17]

I note their chums in the press are already hailing the expected result. Curran "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat" says the Scotsman. What a new socialist heroine she truly will be!!

I particularly liked this article about a guy who joined the Labour campaign team for a week: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4362917.ece

Of particular amusement was:

After five days of campaigning, I finally got to meet the candidate...

I struggled to make smalltalk with her. The only thing we had in common was her most recent campaign leaflet, hundreds of which I had been shoving through letterboxes on her behalf — a personally signed letter in which she declared her commitment to the area.

“I am Glasgow born and bred. I have lived here through good times and bad,” it stated. “I am proud of what so many of us have done to improve our community, but we all know there is more to do.”

I congratulated her on the heartfelt commitment she had demonstrated to the people of the east end: “I really liked the new letter I was handing out the other day.”

She replied: “Somebody said, ‘Oh Margaret, I got your letter, thanks very much, it was brilliant.’ I don’t know what the letter says, but I’m sure it’s very good.”

That's a good read, how unfortunate that this seems to be the trend when "party politics" are actually at the fore-front and not local issues that people actually care enough to vote about.

[steakbake]

That's a good read, how unfortunate that this seems to be the trend when "party politics" are actually at the fore-front and not local issues that people actually care enough to vote about.

I think the party political system is actually damaging to a true democracy.

I'm not sure how an alternative would look, but it strikes me as counter productive that MPs an MSPs have to tow a party line instead of making choices based on what benefits their electorate.

[The_Todd]

I think the party political system is actually damaging to a true democracy.

I'm not sure how an alternative would look, but it strikes me as counter productive that MPs an MSPs have to tow a party line instead of making choices based on what benefits their electorate.

True. This is why I have a truly hard time understanding why we have "whips".

What's the point in having votes in parliament if every MP is just going to vote as directed? Pointless excersise.

I'd be all for removing the party system and replacing it with individuals. Prime Minister and cabinet directly voted for either by electorate (like the Americans, almost) or by Parliament once the elections are done.

Who knows, but it can't be worse than what we have.

Politics in this country needs a radical shake-up.

[sKipper]

Interesting to read the bit about Labour so struggling for workers they are having to draft " most" of their canvassers from England !!

A sure sign they are on their last legs :agree:

[lucky]

In what is essentially a Labour heartland, the turnout is expected to have dropped from about 48% in 2005 to 27%?

Dropping from a majority of 12,507 to 2,500 would be considered a decent result?

I find that quite funny. Out of interest, if you are able to share, where did you get your info?

Sorry mate cant say. I know a touch of Gregg's. Every by election the government either lose or return with massively reduced majority. So if it turns out to be around 2500 then its decent. The last Scottish by election Labour lost in fife and had the majority reduced in Livingston following Robin Cooks death to around 3000

[Hiber-nation]

Interesting to read the bit about Labour so struggling for workers they are having to draft " most" of their canvassers from England !!

A sure sign they are on their last legs :agree:

The Daily ****** is trying its hardest to help them this time round - they've been peddling anti-SNP pesh for weeks and are even managing to find some pro-Labour stuff although it must have been hell of a difficult. But are the voters so gullible? I'm not too sure although lucky's forecast looks about right, maybe with a slightly bigger turnout.

[steakbake]

The Daily ****** is trying its hardest to help them this time round - they've been peddling anti-SNP pesh for weeks and are even managing to find some pro-Labour stuff although it must have been hell of a difficult. But are the voters so gullible? I'm not too sure although lucky's forecast looks about right, maybe with a slightly bigger turnout.

I think what has Labour spooked and the SNP hopeful are the some 29% undecideds counted by both camps.

Its going to be a close one. Certainly a much closer result than the other big event thats happening on Thursday!

[sKipper]

The Daily ****** is trying its hardest to help them this time round - they've been peddling anti-SNP pesh for weeks and are even managing to find some pro-Labour stuff although it must have been hell of a difficult. But are the voters so gullible? I'm not too sure although lucky's forecast looks about right, maybe with a slightly bigger turnout.


The ****** has always been in Labour's back pocket. Their current campaign is no worse than the 50 they have lead before. Usually all lies.

No wonder their circulation is at rock bottom.

[lucky]

Press always have a major say in elections, whilst not a fan of the record the line they are taking is probably about right for its readership. In westminster elections its only Labour and the Tories that count the rest are protest votes. This may change after the next election if the ruling party is a minority or has a small majority but as it stands sending someone to Westminster who hates everything it stands for would absurd.

As for the turnout that was is expected at end of last week it may have increased

[steakbake]

Press always have a major say in elections, whilst not a fan of the record the line they are taking is probably about right for its readership. In westminster elections its only Labour and the Tories that count the rest are protest votes. This may change after the next election if the ruling party is a minority or has a small majority but as it stands sending someone to Westminster who hates everything it stands for would absurd.

As for the turnout that was is expected at end of last week it may have increased

Given that the previous Scottish Exec gave the Daily Record 900k of revenue for public service advertising when it isn't even the leading paper in Scotland, possibly tells you how close the Record and Scottish Labour Party are.

[sKipper]

Given that the previous Scottish Exec gave the Daily Record 900k of revenue for public service advertising when it isn't even the leading paper in Scotland, possibly tells you how close the Record and Scottish Labour Party are.

Well I just hope the current Scottish Exec don't give them a bolt !:wink:

[lucky]

Well I just hope the current Scottish Exec don't give them a bolt !:wink:

Unlikely as the present administration spent a fortune to change the name from Executive to government. Another ego trip for Wee Eck and his cronies

[steakbake]

Well I just hope the current Scottish Exec don't give them a bolt !:wink:

That's Scottish Government :wink:

Not sure where I stand with that one, but it is all about responsibility and standing up and taking a lead.

I am not sure how much has been sent to the Record as part of this year's expenditure, it's possibly too early to get the information. I'll see what I can find though because it would be interesting to see if they have been cut out of it somewhat.

The Government needs to spend the advertising money somehow so I'm sure the record got something .

I have noticed though, that the metro seems to carry a lot of adverts and we're also seeing them on Channel 4 as well.

[lucky]

Just watched the candidates on TV, generally they were not particularly good but was a bit surprised that Councillor Mason did not want to answer any questions and applauded the Tory for having ago at the Lib Dem

[Lucius Apuleius]

I think the party political system is actually damaging to a true democracy.

I'm not sure how an alternative would look, but it strikes me as counter productive that MPs an MSPs have to tow a party line instead of making choices based on what benefits their electorate.


True. This is why I have a truly hard time understanding why we have "whips".

What's the point in having votes in parliament if every MP is just going to vote as directed? Pointless excersise.

I'd be all for removing the party system and replacing it with individuals. Prime Minister and cabinet directly voted for either by electorate (like the Americans, almost) or by Parliament once the elections are done.

Who knows, but it can't be worse than what we have.

Politics in this country needs a radical shake-up.

Something I have been saying for years funnily enough, but not taking it to national levels. I really fail to see why we need political parties at local government levels, kow-towing to London and Edinburgh. Local politics should be all about what is best for the local people and what the local people want not people frightened to make a decision as their bosses won't like it. The voters should be their bosses not party leaders. I can see the need for it at national levels though.

[Future17]

Sorry mate cant say. I know a touch of Gregg's. Every by election the government either lose or return with massively reduced majority. So if it turns out to be around 2500 then its decent. The last Scottish by election Labour lost in fife and had the majority reduced in Livingston following Robin Cooks death to around 3000

Fair enough, it's understandable that most of that sort of info is quite sensitive.

As touched on previously, I don't really have any affiliation to a political party and I agree with some of the other posters that the current system is very unhealthy in the main. Having said that, I would find it possible to vote for Margaret Curran and I think her presence as Labour candidate will probably contribute to the protest vote.


Press always have a major say in elections, whilst not a fan of the record the line they are taking is probably about right for its readership. In westminster elections its only Labour and the Tories that count the rest are protest votes. This may change after the next election if the ruling party is a minority or has a small majority but as it stands sending someone to Westminster who hates everything it stands for would absurd.

All the more reason to have an Independent Scotland!! :greengrin

[The_Todd]

The woman standing for the Tories - Davena Rankin - works at Glasgow Caley Uni (as do I).

Can you believe shes the Unison rep for this place?

A Tory?

It doesn't quite compute... :confused:

[Future17]

The woman standing for the Tories - Davena Rankin - works at Glasgow Caley Uni (as do I).

Can you believe shes the Unison rep for this place?

A Tory?

It doesn't quite compute... :confused:

Don't you know? The Tories are socialists now and Labour are conservative.....or am I confused? :confused::wink:

[Part/Time Supporter]

I have been in Glasgow East twice in last week. Labour are expecting to win with just over 2500. With a turn out of around 27%. whilst not spectacular any victory for a government in its third term with two unpopular wars going on and the country heading towards a recession is a decent result.

:hilarious

[cabbageandribs1875]

looks like a possible full re-count :yawn: labour claiming a possible mix-up due to two currans being next tae each other on the ballot paper :greengrin suggestions that the nats might even be ahead by a couple of hundred :cool2:

[Future17]

:hilarious

Hearing that a re-count has been called.

[Future17]

looks like a possible full re-count :yawn: labour claiming a possible mix-up due to two currans being next tae each other on the ballot paper :greengrin suggestions that the nats might even be ahead by a couple of hundred :cool2:


Hearing that a re-count has been called.

Damn! Beat me to it!! :wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Damn! Beat me to it!! :wink:...


it's riveting stuff :agree: think i'l stay up and see if the nats win, then listen to the snidey bad losers labour speach :greengrin

[The Leither]

...


it's riveting stuff :agree: think i'l stay up and see if the nats win, then listen to the snidey bad losers labour speach :greengrin

i think thats the reason i'm staying up to watch it. just to see maggie Curran's face when she loses. tremendous.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i think thats the reason i'm staying up to watch it. just to see maggie Curran's face when she loses. tremendous.


could be a masterstroke by the nats for putting up a mason in weegville's east end :hilarious the bridgeton citizens must have been in a quandary :greengrin

[NaeTechnoHibby]

:thumbsup: SNP :thumbsup:

[cabbageandribs1875]

labour 10,912

SNP 11,277 :thumbsup: well done the nats :cool2:



turn out 42%


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7522153.stm

[Part/Time Supporter]

It was more the turnout figure I was laughing at, just 15% out with that one.

:bye:

[Part/Time Supporter]

looks like a possible full re-count :yawn: labour claiming a possible mix-up due to two currans being next tae each other on the ballot paper :greengrin suggestions that the nats might even be ahead by a couple of hundred :cool2:

A couple of hundred thicko Labour voters voted for the wrong candidate. Serves them ****ing right.

:greengrin

[steakbake]

It feels even better this morning than it did at 2a.m last night.

Brilliant result.

The recount showed that they had actually missed a dozen or so votes for Mason, so it actually extended his lead.

Will Brown go? Maybe not quite so straight forward as that. Simply because if someone replaces him now, they cannot deny a general election and that is not enough time for the new person (he, or indeed, she :wink:) to make enough of a difference.

One "coronation" is bad enough, but two would be taking the proverbial.

I think we are seeing Labour entering their wilderness years.

[--------]

It feels even better this morning than it did at 2a.m last night.

Brilliant result.

The recount showed that they had actually missed a dozen or so votes for Mason, so it actually extended his lead.

Will Brown go? Maybe not quite so straight forward as that. Simply because if someone replaces him now, they cannot deny a general election and that is not enough time for the new person (he, or indeed, she :wink:) to make enough of a difference.

One "coronation" is bad enough, but two would be taking the proverbial.

I think we are seeing Labour entering their wilderness years.


Priceless. Listening to Des Browne and Nigel Griffiths on the radio made it even better.

According to Browne the government were unjustly punished for the world economic situation, and according to Griffiths they'd have won it if Wee Torn-Face had been selected a fortnight earlier - give her a better run at it, whatever that means. Maybe she should try Beijing and the long-jump?

Gordie can't go right now, IMO. First, there's no one fit to replace him. Who comes in? The Chancellor of the Exchequer? Er, no. The Foreign Secretary? Um, no. The Defence Secretary, chubby Des? Possibly not. The whole New Labour top layer is made up of fly-men and chancers and nonetities, many of whom are here for no other reason than that they smarmed up to Gordie during Blair's extended resignation period.

Secondly, any new New Labour leader would be savaged in the Commons. Blair made the Premiership a Presidential job - following his hero Thatcher. Brown, in effect, is an unelected Prime Minister/President. He runs the country, but nobody got to vote on the question. If he goes, and the Labour sleazemachine nominates another good 'ol boy to replace him, I think the Tories will have a field day. Even Cameron will look good in comparison.

For Scottish Labour to put about scare-stories of disaster looming if the Nationalists get their way is ridiculous. Thanks to Scottish Labour, hundreds of Scottish pensioners die each winter because they can't afford to turn on their heating or make themselves regular hot meals. And don't start me on our hospitals and schools....

(Margaret Curran has just been on TV, saying (and I quote): "Poverty is the main cause of people throughout the world." And here was me thinking that SEX was. Maybe the voters made the right choice?)

[hibsitis]

(Margaret Curran has just been on TV, saying (and I quote): "Poverty is the main cause of people throughout the world." And here was me thinking that SEX was. Maybe the voters made the right choice?)

Doddie - poor people have fewer leisure options - I think that was what she was getting at. Or maybe she was just talking keech as usual.

Wasn't it great to see the horrible old harridan getting a good kick up the jacksie? Imagine being married to that.

[LiverpoolHibs]

It feels even better this morning than it did at 2a.m last night.

Brilliant result.

The recount showed that they had actually missed a dozen or so votes for Mason, so it actually extended his lead.

Will Brown go? Maybe not quite so straight forward as that. Simply because if someone replaces him now, they cannot deny a general election and that is not enough time for the new person (he, or indeed, she :wink:) to make enough of a difference.

One "coronation" is bad enough, but two would be taking the proverbial.

I think we are seeing Labour entering their wilderness years.

And if you chaps do get independence (as I'm fairly sure will happen eventually, and fully support) us Ingerlunders will presumably be stuck with the Tories on a near permanent basis.

Can I have Scottish citizenship, please?

[danhibees1875]

(Margaret Curran has just been on TV, saying (and I quote): "Poverty is the main cause of people throughout the world." And here was me thinking that SEX was. Maybe the voters made the right choice?)

Well poverty can have a huge part to play in it. Poverty of the country in general will mean that there will be a lack of contraception available.

Poverty will lead to higher infant mortality rates, so couples need to have lots of children to ensure some survive to work and look after them when they are old.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Unless I'm missing a joke here. Would she not have meant it was the 'cause' as in a principle, rather than 'cause' as in a reason for something? :confused:

[sKipper]

A couple of hundred thicko Labour voters voted for the wrong candidate. Serves them ****ing right.

:greengrin

One thing they haven't considered, maybe the SSP Curran voters voted Labour' Curran by mistake.

Funny how Labour always manipulate everything in their favour. :cool2:

Superb result BTW. :thumbsup:

[sKipper]

And if you chaps do get independence (as I'm fairly sure will happen eventually, and fully support) us Ingerlunders will presumably be stuck with the Tories on a near permanent basis.

Can I have Scottish citizenship, please?

I suspect there would be quite a movement of people from England to Scotland when everything settled down:agree:

[--------]

Doddie - poor people have fewer leisure options - I think that was what she was getting at. Or maybe she was just talking keech as usual.

Wasn't it great to see the horrible old harridan getting a good kick up the jacksie? Imagine being married to that.


Well poverty can have a huge part to play in it. Poverty of the country in general will mean that there will be a lack of contraception available.

Poverty will lead to higher infant mortality rates, so couples need to have lots of children to ensure some survive to work and look after them when they are old.


Unless I'm missing a joke here. Would she not have meant it was the 'cause' as in a principle, rather than 'cause' as in a reason for something? :confused:


Birds and bees, guys. Sex causes people. Every single person in the world today is here because their mammas and their papas had sex. Joke - a poor one, but a joke. I suppose I should have been happy that the wumman was actually managing to speak and stand upright at the same time - most Labour candidates find that beyond them.

Poverty causes people to live in bad housing, with too little to eat, with few chances and fewer still opportunities to make something of their lives. It isn't a cause, it's a curse, if you like, and one that once upon a time, long, long ago, before the evil ogres Bliar and Braun and their goblin cohorts took over, the Labour Party actually exerted itself to relieve.

Curran is your classic Weegie/Lanarkshire/Paisley Labour timeserver - she's been around for years so when they need a candidate, they wheel her out and expect the lieges to do as they're told and vote her in.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Birds and bees, guys. Sex causes people. Every single person in the world today is here because their mammas and their papas had sex. Joke - a poor one, but a joke. I suppose I should have been happy that the wumman was actually managing to speak and stand upright at the same time - most Labour candidates find that beyond them.

Poverty causes people to live in bad housing, with too little to eat, with few chances and fewer still opportunities to make something of their lives. It isn't a cause, it's a curse, if you like, and one that once upon a time, long, long ago, before the evil ogres Bliar and Braun and their goblin cohorts took over, the Labour Party actually exerted itself to relieve.

Curran is your classic Weegie/Lanarkshire/Paisley Labour timeserver - she's been around for years so when they need a candidate, they wheel her out and expect the lieges to do as they're told and vote her in.

I had an inkling. :wink:

[lucky]

The prediction I gave was based on the internal canvassing of Labour last friday.

It was a terrible result for Labour. But I have to caution my little Brave-hearted Hibees that the Nats have by election before but the seat always returns back to Labour at the general elections

[The_Todd]

And if you chaps do get independence (as I'm fairly sure will happen eventually, and fully support) us Ingerlunders will presumably be stuck with the Tories on a near permanent basis.

Can I have Scottish citizenship, please?

My understanding is yes, as long as you live here at the time independence happens.

[The_Todd]

The prediction I gave was based on the internal canvassing of Labour last friday.

It was a terrible result for Labour. But I have to caution my little Brave-hearted Hibees that the Nats have by election before but the seat always returns back to Labour at the general elections

True, very true. But beware of just passing this off as a small mid-term dig at Labour- this is Glasgow East. With that majority it would need much more than a "protest" vote to lose that seat. Especially since most Labour voters in constituencies like Glasgow East usually vote Labour because of "tradition" and "my dad voted Labour". To get voters like that to turn away from Labour indicates something bigger. IMHO, of course.

This is a big result - for both sides.

[LiverpoolHibs]

The prediction I gave was based on the internal canvassing of Labour last friday.

It was a terrible result for Labour. But I have to caution my little Brave-hearted Hibees that the Nats have by election before but the seat always returns back to Labour at the general elections

Lord alone knows why a socialist (going by your sig) would be so unswervingly supportive of New Labour.

[lucky]

True, very true. But beware of just passing this off as a small mid-term dig at Labour- this is Glasgow East. With that majority it would need much more than a "protest" vote to lose that seat. Especially since most Labour voters in constituencies like Glasgow East usually vote Labour because of "tradition" and "my dad voted Labour". To get voters like that to turn away from Labour indicates something bigger. IMHO, of course.

This is a big result - for both sides.

I agree 100% this cant be just passed off. However this result has strengthen the hands of the unions down at Warwick for the national policy forum. Hopefully they will push through their agenda and take the Labour party back to its members with a strong left of center manifesto if not it is political oblivion for the Labour for the next few years

[The_Todd]

I agree 100% this cant be just passed off. However this result has strengthen the hands of the unions down at Warwick for the national policy forum. Hopefully they will push through their agenda and take the Labour party back to its members with a strong left of center manifesto if not it is political oblivion for the Labour for the next few years

I suppose you're right, the result was good for real, old Labour. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for this Thatcher-loving "New Labour" experiment.

A return to a Labour party I could even consider voting for?

[LiverpoolHibs]

My understanding is yes, as long as you live here at the time independence happens.

If for some unforseen circumstance I am not, surely Strasbourg would rule in my favour on the grounds of un-ending Tory rule being an infringement of my inalienable Human Rights. Just imagine it. :boo hoo:

My Scottish Granny and the fact my Dad grew up in Portobello should provide some leverage. Someone get Jacques Verges on the blower!

[sKipper]

The prediction I gave was based on the internal canvassing of Labour last friday.

It was a terrible result for Labour. But I have to caution my little Brave-hearted Hibees that the Nats have by election before but the seat always returns back to Labour at the general elections

So are you admitting that even Labour's canvassing is rank rotten ?

As for Glasgow East, yes it almost certainly will go back to Labour at the next election. However, Stirling, Kilmarnock, Cumbernauld, Livingston, Dundee etc etc etc etc wil most surely flow the other way :thumbsup:

[MSK]

Jeezo ...i fear Salmond & his cronies running this country more than i would fear the fekkin Tories ...time tae get oot i think ...:offski:

[steakbake]

Jeezo ...i fear Salmond & his cronies running this country more than i would fear the fekkin Tories ...time tae get oot i think ...:offski:

Strange - they already are running this country, or at least doing as good a job of it as they can with a minority government and a hostile press.

People always come out with the line "I'll leave if X, Y, Z forms the next government". We've got Paul Daniels, Phil Collins etc, all vowing that if the election didn't go their way, they'd clear off. As far as I know, they are still here!

If you do decide to leave, watch the door doesn't hit you on the way out!:wink:

[New Corrie]

As the SNP supporters suggested earlier on here, it's time for the remaining Unionists to put up with their brand of politics or leave the country (and of course they claim not to be a Racist party). The SNP are that thick that they acually believe this Glasgow East result is a vote for seperation.

[steakbake]

As the SNP supporters suggested earlier on here, it's time for the remaining Unionists to put up with their brand of politics or leave the country (and of course they claim not to be a Racist party). The SNP are that thick that they acually believe this Glasgow East result is a vote for seperation.

This "leave the country" nonsense. Its just pointless and not constructive. If you care for your country you stay, you don't put up with it and you actually actively do something about it. You don't run away when there is nothing to run away from.

So if people are willing to leave just because they dont like the government, then show them the door. I'd have left years ago if I took that childish attitude. And a tory calling the SNP a racist party - it's not even the pot calling the kettle, its just wishful thinking and displacement for some of the nutters who follow your lot.

As for the Glasgow East result being a vote for separation, well, Labour did kick off the campaign on the theme that "John Mason is in politics for one reason and one reason only - to break up Britain". It was in their leaflets, campaign literature and pretty much any quote that you can find from M.Curran. That is the fact. He won. Even the loyal Record prefixed his name with "hardline nationalist". We can only draw the conclusion that people in Glasgow East knew what they were voting for when they voted positively for the SNP.

Just a victory in a battle in a much longer war, but it was sweet.

PS - hate to be patronising, corrie, but your lot kept your deposit this time - not bad going, surely you should be in a good mood?

[New Corrie]

This "leave the country" nonsense. Its just pointless and not constructive. If you care for your country you stay, you don't put up with it and you actually actively do something about it. You don't run away when there is nothing to run away from.

So if people are willing to leave just because they dont like the government, then show them the door. I'd have left years ago if I took that childish attitude. And a tory calling the SNP a racist party - it's not even the pot calling the kettle, its just wishful thinking and displacement for some of the nutters who follow your lot.

As for the Glasgow East result being a vote for separation, well, Labour did kick off the campaign on the theme that "John Mason is in politics for one reason and one reason only - to break up Britain". It was in their leaflets, campaign literature and pretty much any quote that you can find from M.Curran. That is the fact. He won. Even the loyal Record prefixed his name with "hardline nationalist". We can only draw the conclusion that people in Glasgow East knew what they were voting for when they voted positively for the SNP.

Just a victory in a battle in a much longer war, but it was sweet.

PS - hate to be patronising, corrie, but your lot kept your deposit this time - not bad going, surely you should be in a good mood?

There is only one party (in all the years I have followed politics) who have daubed their emblem on walls. bridges etc, normally alongside "English Go Home" yet you and all the other Nats refuse to concede that they are a Racist party. Yes I am chipper that after the next election (you know the real one, not the silly Inter Toto one they hold up here) will be won by the Conservatives. A chance to point Britain in the right direction again.

[steakbake]

There is only one party (in all the years I have followed politics) who have daubed their emblem on walls. bridges etc, normally alongside "English Go Home" yet you and all the other Nats refuse to concede that they are a Racist party. Yes I am chipper that after the next election (you know the real one, not the silly Inter Toto one they hold up here) will be won by the Conservatives. A chance to point Britain in the right direction again.

the SNP are not a racist party. Im not a racist. Neither is, I doubt, more than 1 in 3 people in Scotland.

the bit in bold - says it all about the attitude your average Tory has about Scotland.

[lucky]

Most SNP supporters are not racist, there are no doubt some with anti-English feelings but not as many as the Tories have as being anti European.

I believe that the result was about voters giving the Brown government a good kicking, however Scotland will have to decide whether its willing to risk its future on independence. Most people in Scotland will vote NO when wee Eck gets the bottle to ask the question.

[New Corrie]

Most SNP supporters are not racist, there are no doubt some with anti-English feelings but not as many as the Tories have as being anti European.
I believe that the result was about voters giving the Brown government a good kicking, however Scotland will have to decide whether its willing to risk its future on independence. Most people in Scotland will vote NO when wee Eck gets the bottle to ask the question.


There's a slight difference between hating English people and being sceptical about the European Union.

[New Corrie]

the SNP are not a racist party. Im not a racist. Neither is, I doubt, more than 1 in 3 people in Scotland.

the bit in bold - says it all about the attitude your average Tory has about Scotland.

Say it often enough and you'll end up believing it to be the case. I must have imagined all the grafitti with the SNP emblem accompanied with English go home.

[Gatecrasher]

will we all not just end up "European" whether we like it or not anyway :dunno:

[lucky]

There's a slight difference between hating English people and being sceptical about the European Union.

The Tory party has and is full of racists. There feeling to wards Johnny foreigner is sickening.

The people of the UK will never forgive the Tory party for destroying communities of this country. The systematically sold of the countries assets to their fat cat pals in the city. If the utilities had still been nationalised we would not be seeing the ridiculous rises in our energy bills that we are suffering now.

Thacher should be tried for crimes against humanity rather than been given a state funeral. In fact join the campaign to stop it by signing the petition below
> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/thatchfuneral/sign

[New Corrie]

The Tory party has and is full of racists. There feeling to wards Johnny foreigner is sickening.

The people of the UK will never forgive the Tory party for destroying communities of this country. The systematically sold of the countries assets to their fat cat pals in the city. If the utilities had still been nationalised we would not be seeing the ridiculous rises in our energy bills that we are suffering now.

Thacher should be tried for crimes against humanity rather than been given a state funeral. In fact join the campaign to stop it by signing the petition below
> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/thatchfuneral/sign

I think you'll find all will be forgiven at the next General Election.

For every Tory fat cat there's a Labour one.

Your obviously drunk referring to assets being sold off. The Labour party privatised things that Mrs T at her worst wouldn't have sold off.

You would do well to remember that more pits closed under labour than Conservative. As for the countries assets, this Labour government has racked up £95 billion national debt and wants more to squander on quangos and benefit scroungers.

[Gatecrasher]

I think you'll find all will be forgiven at the next General Election.

For every Tory fat cat there's a Labour one.

Your obviously drunk referring to assets being sold off. The Labour party privatised things that Mrs T at her worst wouldn't have sold off.

You would do well to remember that more pits closed under labour than Conservative. As for the countries assets, this Labour government has racked up £95 billion national debt and wants more to squander on quangos and benefit scroungers.


dont forget that our current PM sold loads of the coutrys gold at under
the trading value

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-527090/Gordon-Brown-sold-half-Britains-gold-rock-prices--costing-country-4bn-value-metal-hits-time-high.html

[lucky]

I think you'll find all will be forgiven at the next General Election.

For every Tory fat cat there's a Labour one.

Your obviously drunk referring to assets being sold off. The Labour party privatised things that Mrs T at her worst wouldn't have sold off.

You would do well to remember that more pits closed under labour than Conservative. As for the countries assets, this Labour government has racked up £95 billion national debt and wants more to squander on quangos and benefit scroungers.

Not drunk my little right wing friend. I like many will never forget or forgive the brutal way that the working people of this country were treated under Thatcher. If the opinion polls are correct and we get ''Dave'' then this country will see the Tories true colours. This man was the so called expert and architect behind Micheal Howard when he drew up their manifesto which set out again to control workers and their rights.

Labour have made mistakes in power, however the country has had 10 years of economic growth. We along with most countries in the developed world are seeing that growth slow down but do we really want to return to the days of boom and burst that the Tories love?

[Future17]

And if you chaps do get independence (as I'm fairly sure will happen eventually, and fully support) us Ingerlunders will presumably be stuck with the Tories on a near permanent basis.

Can I have Scottish citizenship, please?

:greengrin As far as I'm concerned, anyone who wants to be here is more than welcome! :thumbsup:


As the SNP supporters suggested earlier on here, it's time for the remaining Unionists to put up with their brand of politics or leave the country (and of course they claim not to be a Racist party). The SNP are that thick that they acually believe this Glasgow East result is a vote for seperation.


There is only one party (in all the years I have followed politics) who have daubed their emblem on walls. bridges etc, normally alongside "English Go Home" yet you and all the other Nats refuse to concede that they are a Racist party. Yes I am chipper that after the next election (you know the real one, not the silly Inter Toto one they hold up here) will be won by the Conservatives. A chance to point Britain in the right direction again.


There's a slight difference between hating English people and being sceptical about the European Union.


Say it often enough and you'll end up believing it to be the case. I must have imagined all the grafitti with the SNP emblem accompanied with English go home.

:yawn:I've noticed a growing trend among those holding fairly strong right-wing views. It's like a game where you get points for using words like "racist" whenever the SNP is mentioned. :bitchy:

I can only assume it's paranoia and fear that the growing support the SNP is enjoying at the moment will bring about the end of the union which they so preciously seek to maintain.

I've seen a lot more British flags accompanied by racist grafitti in my lifetime than I have SNP logos - I don't take that to mean the majority of the British population are racists. There may well have been a time when the SNP became a focal point for extreme anti-English views, but that time is not now.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I believe that the result was about voters giving the Brown government a good kicking, however Scotland will have to decide whether its willing to risk its future on independence. Most people in Scotland will vote NO when wee Eck gets the bottle to ask the question.


what makes you so confident scotland would/will vote no :confused: is it the same confidence that labour had of winning glasgow east ?:cool2: and as for eck having "the bottle" you obviously haven't considered that maybe wee eck is quite happy playing a waiting game, you maybe haven't noticed that gogs broon and his mob are getting a bit of a doin dan sarf from daves mob, and i suspect the tory's possibly being returned to power:brickwall THEN wee eck will be clever enough to have "the bottle" to ask thee Q :wink: he certainly wouldn't have been pushed into asking the nation that question by the likes of that paisly burd bendy wendy telling him to "bring it on" :faf:

[RyeSloan]

Not drunk my little right wing friend. I like many will never forget or forgive the brutal way that the working people of this country were treated under Thatcher. If the opinion polls are correct and we get ''Dave'' then this country will see the Tories true colours. This man was the so called expert and architect behind Micheal Howard when he drew up their manifesto which set out again to control workers and their rights.

Labour have made mistakes in power, however the country has had 10 years of economic growth. We along with most countries in the developed world are seeing that growth slow down but do we really want to return to the days of boom and burst that the Tories love?

Dear or dear. Don't want boom or bust..that's exactly what we have. Brown overspent on a 7 year boom and saved nothing for an inevitable global slowdown..Labour started the right way (strangely enough inhibited by previous tory spending promises that labour pledged to keep in an effort to show they were 'trust worthy') then once their first term was out of the way have done nothing but spend spend spend. As ever with govermnet spending the ruturn has been much lower than hoped, tax revenues never had a chance of keeping up and as for Gordon's golden rule....

As for keeping utilities nationalised and paying fortunes to keep people in coal mines....I'm not even gonna start as we are obviously a long long way apart on that! :greengrin

Strangely the Lib Dems are now the only national party promising to reduce the tax burden on Britian's citizens....

[LiverpoolHibs]

:greengrin As far as I'm concerned, anyone who wants to be here is more than welcome! :thumbsup:

Phew!

N.B. I'm not sure why, but Corrie Greens seems to think that if he accuses the SNP of anti-English racism enough times people will actually start to believe it. A Tory crying racism, you truly are the living end CG.

[lucky]

It was more the turnout figure I was laughing at, just 15% out with that one.

:bye:

see today's Record and you will see that the canvass returns were terribly wrong. So rather than laughing at the information posted you should do some research into the facts

[lucky]

what makes you so confident scotland would/will vote no :confused: is it the same confidence that labour had of winning glasgow east ?:cool2: and as for eck having "the bottle" you obviously haven't considered that maybe wee eck is quite happy playing a waiting game, you maybe haven't noticed that gogs broon and his mob are getting a bit of a doin dan sarf from daves mob, and i suspect the tory's possibly being returned to power:brickwall THEN wee eck will be clever enough to have "the bottle" to ask thee Q :wink: he certainly wouldn't have been pushed into asking the nation that question by the likes of that paisly burd bendy wendy telling him to "bring it on" :faf:

The reason I'm confident that Scotland will vote NO is that 70% of Scots don't want independence. Wee Eck is hiding, I agree he is pinning his hopes of Cameron winning and Scots getting upset over Tory rule. But surely if independence is right then we should have that debate now!

[lucky]

Dear or dear. Don't want boom or bust..that's exactly what we have. Brown overspent on a 7 year boom and saved nothing for an inevitable global slowdown..Labour started the right way (strangely enough inhibited by previous tory spending promises that labour pledged to keep in an effort to show they were 'trust worthy') then once their first term was out of the way have done nothing but spend spend spend. As ever with govermnet spending the ruturn has been much lower than hoped, tax revenues never had a chance of keeping up and as for Gordon's golden rule....

As for keeping utilities nationalised and paying fortunes to keep people in coal mines....I'm not even gonna start as we are obviously a long long way apart on that! :greengrin

Strangely the Lib Dems are now the only national party promising to reduce the tax burden on Britian's citizens....

There has and is steady growth in the UK economy under Labour, it is slowing down. However the days of 15% interest rates are thankfully well gone. The investment in public services is to be applauded, I do accept better management of them should be taking place, As for returning to coal, it certainly a decent option as gas and oil prices rocket and demand from the US, China and India forces prices higher it would extremely prudent for any government to consider reopening the British coal mines back up. That way we would not be held to ransom by other Nations over our energy costs.

[Part/Time Supporter]

The reason I'm confident that Scotland will vote NO is that 70% of Scots don't want independence. Wee Eck is hiding, I agree he is pinning his hopes of Cameron winning and Scots getting upset over Tory rule. But surely if independence is right then we should have that debate now!

You don't know that. The hypothesis has never been tested. Each of the two times Scots have been offered more powers they have voted for it.

[lucky]

You don't know that. The hypothesis has never been tested. Each of the two times Scots have been offered more powers they have voted for it.

Difference between Devolution and separation. Also in 1979 Scots rejected devolution. Scotland will prosper better with further devolved powers not separation

[Part/Time Supporter]

see today's Record and you will see that the canvass returns were terribly wrong. So rather than laughing at the information posted you should do some research into the facts

I knew where you would be getting those numbers from. I was laughing at the pisspoor quality of Labour's canvassing. The words "out of touch" come to mind.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Difference between Devolution and separation. Also in 1979 Scots rejected devolution. Scotland will prosper better with further devolved powers not separation

The majority voted for it. The motion failed because of the stupid turnout rule.

[lucky]

I knew where you would be getting those numbers from. I was laughing at the pisspoor quality of Labour's canvassing. The words "out of touch" come to mind.

Have to agree. the quailty of the return was not the best. I have been involved many by elections and there were to many people who did not the expreince to be canvassing. But the mistakes learned here will help in future.

Colin Smith the General Secretay of Scottish Labour was running his first by elction and he will learn from it. Labour have suffered worse defeats before and bounced back.

[Part/Time Supporter]

The reason I'm confident that Scotland will vote NO is that 70% of Scots don't want independence. Wee Eck is hiding, I agree he is pinning his hopes of Cameron winning and Scots getting upset over Tory rule. But surely if independence is right then we should have that debate now!

Yes, he is hiding as you put it, but it is the correct strategy. He knows that the SNP can't pass an indpendence referendum bill (unless another party second guesses him) through the Parliament, so he is hiding the bill until it can be used to maximum effect. It would have been electorally pointless to bring forward the bill in the last year and it would have confirmed the Labour stereotype of the Nats foaming at the mouth in their desire for independence.

Labour have yet to come up with a strategy to counter that. Wendy floated the idea of brining forward their own referendum bill, but she didn't think it through and she didn't do the groundwork, so it completely backfired.

The problem Labour has is that Salmond has created a heads I win, tails you lose scenario with the referendum. If Labour supports it, then they are giving the SNP what they have always wanted. If they oppose it, it feeds into the SNP narrative of "we're doing okay at running our pretendy wee parliament, but we need more powers (ideally indpendence)".

[sKipper]

Have to agree. the quailty of the return was not the best. I have been involved many by elections and there were to many people who did not the expreince to be canvassing. But the mistakes learned here will help in future.

Colin Smith the General Secretay of Scottish Labour was running his first by elction and he will learn from it. Labour have suffered worse defeats before and bounced back.


Doubt you'll bounce back from this one in a while. For a start you have no activists. Bussing in students from England was the only way you were able to canvas at all in Glasgow.

Face it your party is on the slippery slope.:cool2:

[lucky]

Doubt you'll bounce back from this one in a while. For a start you have no activists. Bussing in students from England was the only way you were able to canvas at all in Glasgow.

Face it your party is on the slippery slope.:cool2:

Whilst there were students from England most of the foot soldiers were from Glasgow and Scotland. The labour is and still the party with the greatest membership. It also has over 500 000 trade union members paying the political levy. Labour has bounced back before, After 18 years of Tory rule labour has enjoyed two landslide victories and one comfortable win. Don't rule Labour out just yet. The Nat's have success in the past but still cant even bring themselves to ask the country for independence.

[Future17]

Whilst there were students from England most of the foot soldiers were from Glasgow and Scotland. The labour is and still the party with the greatest membership. It also has over 500 000 trade union members paying the political levy. Labour has bounced back before, After 18 years of Tory rule labour has enjoyed two landslide victories and one comfortable win. Don't rule Labour out just yet. The Nat's have success in the past but still cant even bring themselves to ask the country for independence.

In one post you've defended Labour by saying they have a long track record of achievements to prove themselves by - but you criticise the SNP for not calling a referrendum on independence when they've only been in government for a political 5 minutes.

Bit of hypocrisy no?

[lucky]

In one post you've defended Labour by saying they have a long track record of achievements to prove themselves by - but you criticise the SNP for not calling a referrendum on independence when they've only been in government for a political 5 minutes.

Bit of hypocrisy no?

Your correct for once, it is not hypocrisy. If the Nat's believe in independence then they should have the referendum now. There is nothing to stop them asking again in a few years (if they ever get back in) But wee Eck knows he can't win. so is waiting hoping for his political allies from the past the Tories get back in and the people of Scotland will be that repulsed by their actions he will win a referendum. It is hardly the strongest argument for independence is it?

[RyeSloan]

Your correct for once, it is not hypocrisy. If the Nat's believe in independence then they should have the referendum now. There is nothing to stop them asking again in a few years (if they ever get back in) But wee Eck knows he can't win. so is waiting hoping for his political allies from the past the Tories get back in and the people of Scotland will be that repulsed by their actions he will win a referendum. It is hardly the strongest argument for independence is it?


Interesting you think Scotland will be 'repulsed' by the Tories actions....what actions are they proposing that will cause this to happen?

Also if you can't see the similarities between the last years of the Tory period of power and the current state of Labour then you really are in too deep to have perspective.

[lucky]

Interesting you think Scotland will be 'repulsed' by the Tories actions....what actions are they proposing that will cause this to happen?

Also if you can't see the similarities between the last years of the Tory period of power and the current state of Labour then you really are in too deep to have perspective.

The statement is based on the previous 18 years of Tory rule, mass unemployment, high interest rates, sell of of council housing stock, closing of the mines and steelworks the privatisation of the railway and the utilities. Need I go on?

I agree not very thing under Labour has been good far from it but they have believed the minimum wage, devolution for Scotland ,Wales and NI as well as peace in the Provence. Labour has delivered 9 1/2 years of steady economic growth. However the turbulence the world economy is facing just now is impacting on the UK big time. This mainly down to the greed of the banks here trying to get a piece of the US sub prime market which has fallen. The demand for energy and food from China & India is also driving prices up. If Labour can turn around the economy and start delivering more the people then they may hang on. But even I am struggling to believe that Gordon Brown is the right man for the job. Personally I would go for Alan Johnston with John Crudass as his deputy for 3 months then go to the country

[LiverpoolHibs]

The statement is based on the previous 18 years of Tory rule, mass unemployment, high interest rates, sell of of council housing stock, closing of the mines and steelworks the privatisation of the railway and the utilities. Need I go on?

I agree not very thing under Labour has been good far from it but they have believed the minimum wage, devolution for Scotland ,Wales and NI as well as peace in the Provence. Labour has delivered 9 1/2 years of steady economic growth. However the turbulence the world economy is facing just now is impacting on the UK big time. This mainly down to the greed of the banks here trying to get a piece of the US sub prime market which has fallen. The demand for energy and food from China & India is also driving prices up. If Labour can turn around the economy and start delivering more the people then they may hang on. But even I am struggling to believe that Gordon Brown is the right man for the job. Personally I would go for Alan Johnston with John Crudass as his deputy for 3 months then go to the country

That would be just about the stupidest thing they could do. There's no way they could turn it around in that period of time and those two would thus be tainted just as Brown is. I think at least one Tory term is inevitable, but for Labour to have a chance of being back in power after that Brown needs to take this alone.

Oh, and Jon Crudass has dropped markedly in my opinion (and many others) since he voted for 42 days.

[The cooler king]

Its about time Scotland handed England back to the English and let them get on with managing it themselves.

[danhibees1875]

Is there a push for independance in Wales aswell as scotland?

Cheers.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Is there a push for independance in Wales aswell as scotland?

Cheers.

:agree:

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_nationalism

Edit: Or do you mean particular at the moment?

[danhibees1875]

:agree:

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_nationalism

Edit: Or do you mean particular at the moment?

Thank you. :thumbsup:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Its about time Scotland handed England back to the English and let them get on with managing it themselves.

Man, you are sooooo controversial.

:yawn:

[JennaFletcher]

I am Scottish AND British.

Alex Salmond is seriously deluded if he thinks the overwhelming majority of Scottish people want to be independent... chyeah, the only type of Scot I know who'd want to be are those that don't have a clue about politics, think Braveheart is the coolest film ever and are like, ''aye sod the English''
:greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

I am Scottish AND British.

Alex Salmond is seriously deluded if he thinks the overwhelming majority of Scottish people want to be independent... chyeah, the only type of Scot I know who'd want to be are those that don't have a clue about politics, think Braveheart is the coolest film ever and are like, ''aye sod the English''
:greengrin

:confused:

Yeah, that's definitely representative of the SNP guys who've posted on this thread. Jesus wept...

[sKipper]

:confused:

Yeah, that's definitely representative of the SNP guys who've posted on this thread. Jesus wept...


Thanks Liverpool. Beat me to it ! :greengrin

[mickeythehibbee]

I am Scottish AND British.

Alex Salmond is seriously deluded if he thinks the overwhelming majority of Scottish people want to be independent... chyeah, the only type of Scot I know who'd want to be are those that don't have a clue about politics, think Braveheart is the coolest film ever and are like, ''aye sod the English''
:greengrin

See it's this sort of attitude that really gets to me!

Although there are certainly some extreme nationalists you could claim that of any argument which is as divisive as independence and they are definitely confined to a minority!

I'm a nationalist and proud of it however i have an English (and Tory unfortunately, lol) girlfriend and loads of English friends. I see no reason why thinking that Scotland could prosper as an independent nation necessarily means that i am racist and hate the English!

[LunaJLHsauzee]

I am Scottish AND British.

Alex Salmond is seriously deluded if he thinks the overwhelming majority of Scottish people want to be independent... chyeah, the only type of Scot I know who'd want to be are those that don't have a clue about politics, think Braveheart is the coolest film ever and are like, ''aye sod the English''
:greengrin

When the weak arguments for the union run out it always comes to this....

"well.....eh..........ah............well........you just hate the english..........and...........eh.............ah.. ................. you watch Braveheart all the time!"

If you read the thread you will see that the people backing independence actually do have a clue about politics, they don't think braveheart is the coolest thing ever, and they haven't said anything like "aye, sod the english"

[Hibrandenburg]

It's the word "Nationalist" that I have a problem with.

Check any Thesaurus and the synonyms are quite distasteful.

Nationalist (http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus)

[steakbake]

I'd agree with Luna: when Unionists run out of arguments why the Union is so good, they fall into insulting supporters of the SNP and other people who wish to see independence by calling them racists.

Let alone there are SNP MSPs and MPs who are by definition of birth, English, activists who are English and SNP members who are not anti-English in the slightest, having family members from England, partners etc. It seems everyone else is obsessed with England, not your average SNP activist, member or politician.

Unionists are not very good at talking the Union up, but they are very good at talking Scotland down.

See Cooler King's post for a prime example of this attitude and Corriegreen's post on the Scottish elections being the "intertattie" of elections - bet they wouldn't be if his party had a win in them.

What has the Unionist parties worried is the latent level of support for independence across all political parties.

If you are genuinely interested in it and not just into name-calling, it might be worth reading some of Matt Qvortrup's work (Professor of Government at RGU).

Immediately after the election last year, he found that support for independence around 36%, and against independence 42% and the don't knows make up the remaining 22%.

Among party identifiers - so that is not party members, but people who support a particular party at election time as oppposed to undecided votes, he found that each party had a bloc of voters who are pro-independence.

He found that among Labour Party identifiers, support for independence was greater than those actively against it. LibDems 31%, SNP 85%, Conservative 21%. In the case of the LibDems and Tories, there were more actively against independence than for it, but surprisingly, it was the LibDems party identifiers who were most against it.

Interestingly, only 27% of Tories were actively against independence, 26% of Labour, 36% of Lib Dems and 4% SNP.

It's not as clearcut as people like to think. The SNP might be the political organisation behind independence, but independence as such draws support from all quarters.

It might also be of interest that the report this came from was commissioned by the Scottish Conservatives. I wonder why they commissioned it?

[--------]

I'd agree with Luna: when Unionists run out of arguments why the Union is so good, they fall into insulting supporters of the SNP and other people who wish to see independence by calling them racists.

Let alone there are SNP MSPs and MPs who are by definition of birth, English, activists who are English and SNP members who are not anti-English in the slightest, having family members from England, partners etc. It seems everyone else is obsessed with England, not your average SNP activist, member or politician.

Unionists are not very good at talking the Union up, but they are very good at talking Scotland down.

See Cooler King's post for a prime example of this attitude and Corriegreen's post on the Scottish elections being the "intertattie" of elections - bet they wouldn't be if his party had a win in them.

What has the Unionist parties worried is the latent level of support for independence across all political parties.

If you are genuinely interested in it and not just into name-calling, it might be worth reading some of Matt Qvortrup's work (Professor of Government at RGU).

Immediately after the election last year, he found that support for independence around 36%, and against independence 42% and the don't knows make up the remaining 22%.

Among party identifiers - so that is not party members, but people who support a particular party at election time as oppposed to undecided votes, he found that each party had a bloc of voters who are pro-independence.

He found that among Labour Party identifiers, support for independence was greater than those actively against it. LibDems 31%, SNP 85%, Conservative 21%. In the case of the LibDems and Tories, there were more actively against independence than for it, but surprisingly, it was the LibDems party identifiers who were most against it.

Interestingly, only 27% of Tories were actively against independence, 26% of Labour, 36% of Lib Dems and 4% SNP.

It's not as clearcut as people like to think. The SNP might be the political organisation behind independence, but independence as such draws support from all quarters.

It might also be of interest that the report this came from was commissioned by the Scottish Conservatives. I wonder why they commissioned it?


You're more patient than I am with these people, blacksaltire. I don't mind a serious discussion of the constitutional or economic issues surrounding devolution/independence, but when unionists resort to slandering and denigrating their own people to justify their position, I get angry.

What I would like to hear from these folks is why, of all the people in Europe, are the people who live in Scotland so uniquely unfitted to aspire to self-determination or self government?

The unionist message seems to me to be that we Scots aren't clever enough or good enough or honest enough to govern ourselves. And so often the people who're singing the song are themselves Scots. If an English politician or a European politician made these assertions, we'd probably accuse him of being racist.

When a Scot says it, I think I might suggest that he or she's an Uncle Tam or an Auntie Tammie - the sort of pathetic creature who agrees with, and acquiesces in, the racist denigration of his or her own people. The Scots equivalent of Jack Benny's black butler Rochester, or Amos 'n Andy, or the Robertson's gollywog.

(Or the tartan abominations we see on shortbread tins and in 'Highland' gift shops all over Scotland.)

It appears to me to be a strange sort of inverted racism - the enemy isn't the stranger next door, but a twisted and distorted self-image of inadequacy, incompetence and fear. It says nothing about the reality of 21st-century Scotland. it speaks volumes for how the people who tout the attitude perceive and judge themselves.

I totally agree with your comments in the paras I've highlighted. If the racist graffiti that so upset Corriegreens are so commonplace, maybe he'd like to tell me where I can see them? Give us three or four locations where the SNP logo is up on the wall with "English go home" beside it - or is it, as I suspect, a figment of his overheated imagination? A bit like the 'Popish Plot' some of his Unionist brothers in my part of the world are so fond of warning me against?

Maybe an echo of Billy Connolly's nasty jibe about Holyrood being a "wee pretendy parliament" - though how he could know anything about it, living as he did at the time in California, I can't quite work out. Nor why HIS opinion as a tax-exile is valid comment, when anything Sean Connery says about the issue gets shouted down?

Of course there are risks in seeking increased autonomy for our nation. Yugoslavia broke up in a welter of bloodshed and ethnic cleansing. But Slovakia split from the Czech Republic more or less peacefully. Norway and Sweden went their separate ways at the beginning of the 20th century, and remain friendly. Iceland, once a Danish dependency, is now an independent country, with a much smaller population than Scotland.

If the Scottish Government were to bring forward the referendum on the constitution to this year, Corriegreens and his ilk would be yelling that Alec Salmond was guilty of opportunism, of jumping the gun, of taking advantage of what they would claim to be a temporary glitch in the polls. Because the SG are doing what the said they would do - that is, governing for a few years and then going to the people - they're accused of running scared.

Tell me, my friend - do you hear any deafening clamour right now from Scottish Labour, or the Tories, or the Lib-Dems, or anyone, for an immediate vote RIGHT NOW on the matter? 'Cos I don't.

'Cos they're all popping Imodium pills at the thought of what might happen if Eck DID decide to "bring it on", as Wee Wendy was demanding, oh, such a short time ago..... :devil:

[EuanH78]

Excellent points by Blacksaltire and Doddie.

Interesting that pro-Unionists can rarely offer much in the way of positive reasoning for the Union but have a whole arsenal of weapons to use against independance for Scotland.

Anyone looking on objectively might conclude that the Unionists are scared, even terrified of independance for Scotland and are using the propoganda and fear to attempt to derail the issue.

Logically following that train of thought you have to ask 'what are they afraid of? '

More and more people are getting wise to the propoganda and the scaremongering. As the people of Scotland grow in confidence about themselves it is inevitable and right that they will vote for independance.

And for what it's worth, before someone starts calling me an Anti-English, Racist, slavering Braveheart watcher. My father is English, I have English family and friends and until relatively recently had an English partner for 6 years and not once, ever has my Pro Scotland, Pro independance view caused any problems with any of them.

[Dipped flake]

I have to agree with the views of the above 2 posters. Unionists tend to start arguing the pros and cons of independence but very quickly resort to accusing all SNP supporters of being anti-English racists. IMO Scotland and England and their people would get along a lot better if Scotland was an independant nation and I hope and pray that I will get the chance in my lifetime to find out if this is the case.

p.s. sorry to butt in to the non-football part of your board but was looking for a certain posters comments on a football thread and stumbled on to this..:wink:

[steakbake]

I have to agree with the views of the above 2 posters. Unionists tend to start arguing the pros and cons of independence but very quickly resort to accusing all SNP supporters of being anti-English racists. IMO Scotland and England and their people would get along a lot better if Scotland was an independant nation and I hope and pray that I will get the chance in my lifetime to find out if this is the case.

p.s. sorry to butt in to the non-football part of your board but was looking for a certain posters comments on a football thread and stumbled on to this..:wink:

are you trying to figure out who the players who post on this are? :wink:

[Dipped flake]

are you trying to figure out who the players who post on this are? :wink:
Nah, just a poster was being quoted and I wanted to check his other posts on the same thread and ended up here. As a staunch nationalist, with English family, I always smile when the old racist bit is trotted out....

[The_Todd]

I am Scottish AND British.

Alex Salmond is seriously deluded if he thinks the overwhelming majority of Scottish people want to be independent... chyeah, the only type of Scot I know who'd want to be are those that don't have a clue about politics, think Braveheart is the coolest film ever and are like, ''aye sod the English''
:greengrin


Very simplistic.

You're seriously deluded if you think all Nats sit in front of the telly watching braveheart wearing kilts and sporting painted saltires on their faces shouting obscenities at the English.

Funny how you can say only those with no clue about politics are interested in independence after posting a rant like that! :bye:

[--------]

I am Scottish AND British.

Alex Salmond is seriously deluded if he thinks the overwhelming majority of Scottish people want to be independent... chyeah, the only type of Scot I know who'd want to be are those that don't have a clue about politics, think Braveheart is the coolest film ever and are like, ''aye sod the English''
:greengrin


Allow me to introduce myself.

I've read widely in history and politics for mostr of the last half-century, I think 'Braveheart' is one of the most appallingly dreadful films ever made, and I have the highest respect for English culture and a large number of Englsih friends.

And I'm certainly not so stupid as to favour the idea that Alec Salmond is 'deluded' about any aspect of the Scottish political scene. I'm nobody's 'subject' - least of all Betty Windsor the First's. And I long for the day I can trade in my UK passport, and send for my SCOTTISH one.

So now you know of at least one SNP supporter who doesn't fit the stereotype you've constructed for yourself.

A VERY wily fox is our Alec. He's already seen off Jack McConnell, Wendy Alexander, and Nicol Stephens. He's head and shoulders above Gray, Jamieson and Kerr (the 'contenders') and heaven knows what he'll do to Charlie Gordon if Labour were arrogant enough and stupid enough to choose him.

We're living in interesting times. Learn to appreciate the fact, hen.

[Gatecrasher]

if i questioned nationalism it would be for this reason.

about 1/3 of the scottish population is currently employed by the goverment that includes NHS, HMRC, DWP, Local councils, social workers etc. out of about 5.5 million people 1.8 million people left unemployed, now i know for the country to keep going not 100% of those people wouuld be left totally unemployed but a huge amount would. a country of scotlands size surely could not afford to take a hit like that and im not even including private companys with contracts with the current goverment such as ship yards trains and busses etc.

the other point would be the benefits system, scotland could no way have a benefits system like the one currently inforce with the current goverment with the amount of child benefits, tax credits, incapacity benefits, council tax beneifts etc could scotland afford NHS on its own :dunno:, that would mean the poorest people in the country would take 2 of the biggest hits if the scotland decides to be independant.

Then comes the cost of seperating, at this moment all out hospitals, taxes, benefits, roads everything you can think of that is the foundation of the country just now is ran through the UK goverment, the cost of setting up new systems for taxation road tax hospitals would be massive.

yes there are countrys the same size or smaller than scotland that are doing fine all on there own, but IMO in this day and age and the uncertain times we live in i feel its just far too much of a risk and IMO one we will all pay dearly for.

[The_Todd]

if i questioned nationalism it would be for this reason.

about 1/3 of the scottish population is currently employed by the goverment that includes NHS, HMRC, DWP, Local councils, social workers etc. out of about 5.5 million people 1.8 million people left unemployed, now i know for the country to keep going not 100% of those people wouuld be left totally unemployed but a huge amount would. a country of scotlands size surely could not afford to take a hit like that and im not even including private companys with contracts with the current goverment such as ship yards trains and busses etc.

the other point would be the benefits system, scotland could no way have a benefits system like the one currently inforce with the current goverment with the amount of child benefits, tax credits, incapacity benefits, council tax beneifts etc could scotland afford NHS on its own :dunno:, that would mean the poorest people in the country would take 2 of the biggest hits if the scotland decides to be independant.

Then comes the cost of seperating, at this moment all out hospitals, taxes, benefits, roads everything you can think of that is the foundation of the country just now is ran through the UK goverment, the cost of setting up new systems for taxation road tax hospitals would be massive.

yes there are countrys the same size or smaller than scotland that are doing fine all on there own, but IMO in this day and age and the uncertain times we live in i feel its just far too much of a risk and IMO one we will all pay dearly for.

I suppose that was a better argument than "you're all racists who love Braveheart too much" :greengrin

[Gatecrasher]

I suppose that was a better argument than "you're all racists who love Braveheart too much" :greengrin


:tee hee:

[lucky]

I suppose that was a better argument than "you're all racists who love Braveheart too much" :greengrin

Whilst I have traded comments with several Nats on this thread and few Tories as well it has been a common theme of the Nats on here to tell what an independent Scotland would be like. I and others have countered these claims with our beliefs and views. But I do find it extremely condescending that all unionist slag of Scotland and don't care about our country.

I for one am a extremely proud Scot however I believe that for our political & economic future we are better of being part of the UK within the EC.

[AndyP]

if i questioned nationalism it would be for this reason.

about 1/3 of the scottish population is currently employed by the goverment that includes NHS, HMRC, DWP, Local councils, social workers etc. out of about 5.5 million people 1.8 million people left unemployed, now i know for the country to keep going not 100% of those people wouuld be left totally unemployed but a huge amount would. a country of scotlands size surely could not afford to take a hit like that and im not even including private companys with contracts with the current goverment such as ship yards trains and busses etc.

the other point would be the benefits system, scotland could no way have a benefits system like the one currently inforce with the current goverment with the amount of child benefits, tax credits, incapacity benefits, council tax beneifts etc could scotland afford NHS on its own :dunno:, that would mean the poorest people in the country would take 2 of the biggest hits if the scotland decides to be independant.

Then comes the cost of seperating, at this moment all out hospitals, taxes, benefits, roads everything you can think of that is the foundation of the country just now is ran through the UK goverment, the cost of setting up new systems for taxation road tax hospitals would be massive.

yes there are countrys the same size or smaller than scotland that are doing fine all on there own, but IMO in this day and age and the uncertain times we live in i feel its just far too much of a risk and IMO one we will all pay dearly for.

Where do you think that Westminster gets the money from to give to Scotland for these services :dunno: Scotlands deficit under the Barnet formula is around £35 per person, ie they take out £35 more per person than they put in, not exactly an insurmountable sum and can be overcome by making overseas investment in Scotland economically attractive.

[steakbake]

Where do you think that Westminster gets the money from to give to Scotland for these services :dunno: Scotlands deficit under the Barnet formula is around £35 per person, ie they take out £35 more per person than they put in, not exactly an insurmountable sum and can be overcome by making overseas investment in Scotland economically attractive.

I could write a massive post about the economics of independence, but I think why re-invent the wheel.

The Herald did an investigation (http://http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1804171.0.0.php) into the five key myths (http://http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/other/display.var.1804147.0.0.php) of the Scottish economy.

One of the few outstanding pieces of journalism the Herald has produced.

The other factor is control of business policy. Scotland needs to slash business rates to get the private sector going.

I'd also point out that Public Sector employment counts for 40% of all employees in Denmark and 35% of all employees in Norway. In Belgium, 29%. It is not unusual for a public sector work force to account for around 1/3 of employees in small developed European countries.

[steakbake]

http://www.theherald.co.uk/search/display.var.1804171.0.scotching_the_myth.php

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/other/display.var.1804147.0.0.php

Sorry - links did not work.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/search/display.var.1807165.0.public_figures_back_full_deb ate_on_scotlands_place_in_the_uk.php

and a wee bit about the GERS figures:

http://www.alba.org.uk/scotching/greatdeception.html

[--------]

Whilst I have traded comments with several Nats on this thread and few Tories as well it has been a common theme of the Nats on here to tell what an independent Scotland would be like. I and others have countered these claims with our beliefs and views. But I do find it extremely condescending that all unionist slag of Scotland and don't care about our country.

I for one am a extremely proud Scot however I believe that for our political & economic future we are better of being part of the UK within the EC.


That's not what I said. What I DID say was that it isn't any sort of argument against independence to slag off one's fellow Scots (and I include everyone living in Scotland under that term) as being somehow, alone of all the European peoples, incapable of governing themselves.

That, as I've already said, is a racist argument, and the more shocking and shameful when it comes from Scots themselves.

Russell Johnston, who has just died, was a convinced 'Home Rule' man, and a convinced European. He was also a highly intelligent and cultured man, no fool. The Lib Dems could well do with him right now. He was also, I believe, a gradualist - someone who believed that little-by-little was the best way to achieve lasting and beneficial change for this country.

It's now clear (to me, anyway) that most Scots would like to see greater powers being devolved to Holyrood. That doesn't have to be full independence right now. But it does mean Scots taking increased responsibility for themselves and for their country, and that IMO can only be a good thing.

[LiverpoolHibs]

if i questioned nationalism it would be for this reason.

about 1/3 of the scottish population is currently employed by the goverment that includes NHS, HMRC, DWP, Local councils, social workers etc. out of about 5.5 million people 1.8 million people left unemployed, now i know for the country to keep going not 100% of those people wouuld be left totally unemployed but a huge amount would. a country of scotlands size surely could not afford to take a hit like that and im not even including private companys with contracts with the current goverment such as ship yards trains and busses etc.

the other point would be the benefits system, scotland could no way have a benefits system like the one currently inforce with the current goverment with the amount of child benefits, tax credits, incapacity benefits, council tax beneifts etc could scotland afford NHS on its own :dunno:, that would mean the poorest people in the country would take 2 of the biggest hits if the scotland decides to be independant.

Then comes the cost of seperating, at this moment all out hospitals, taxes, benefits, roads everything you can think of that is the foundation of the country just now is ran through the UK goverment, the cost of setting up new systems for taxation road tax hospitals would be massive.

yes there are countrys the same size or smaller than scotland that are doing fine all on there own, but IMO in this day and age and the uncertain times we live in i feel its just far too much of a risk and IMO one we will all pay dearly for.

Well, for starters, hopefully your taxes wouldn't be spent on illegal and unjust wars and occupations.

[Part/Time Supporter]

This sums it all up quite well really. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO5leiwEiTM)

[New Corrie]

Have to say I think Doddie's points are seriously well put togeher and if all seperatists came over like that, then Independence would be a formality. However, Unionists keep getting accused of failing to put valid arguments forward regarding the Status Quo, but I would imagine the most simplistic one is the fear of change. I have seen/heard nothing whatsoever to convince me that hacking lumps out of the Union would be beneficial to anyone (bar civil servants). It's nothing to do with self loathing, it's the fear of Left wing gravy trains raping the country. The evidence is there for all to see, we gave Scottish people the chance to govern themselves and they blew it. Those Scottish bastions of Socialism told us it would cost £35million for the parliament...it cost 400 and odd million. That should be the end of it. No credabiity, no talent and no concept whatsover about how best to be Scotland's custodians.

Much that i'm a staunch Unionist, the only way I would concede seperation is if Scotland was run on a Centre/Right basis outwith the EU. Not going to happen, therefore i'll stick with my pro Union stance.

[steakbake]

Have to say I think Doddie's points are seriously well put togeher and if all seperatists came over like that, then Independence would be a formality. However, Unionists keep getting accused of failing to put valid arguments forward regarding the Status Quo, but I would imagine the most simplistic one is the fear of change. I have seen/heard nothing whatsoever to convince me that hacking lumps out of the Union would be beneficial to anyone (bar civil servants). It's nothing to do with self loathing, it's the fear of Left wing gravy trains raping the country. The evidence is there for all to see, we gave Scottish people the chance to govern themselves and they blew it. Those Scottish bastions of Socialism told us it would cost £35million for the parliament...it cost 400 and odd million. That should be the end of it. No credabiity, no talent and no concept whatsover about how best to be Scotland's custodians.

Much that i'm a staunch Unionist, the only way I would concede seperation is if Scotland was run on a Centre/Right basis outwith the EU. Not going to happen, therefore i'll stick with my pro Union stance.

I'll pen a letter to Miss Goldie forthwith and see what can be done!:wink:

[New Corrie]

I'll pen a letter to Miss Goldie forthwith and see what can be done!:wink:

While you're at it will you pen one to that SNP lunatic McAskill and ask him to stop releasing prisoners back into the community prematurely:wink:

[lucky]

Have to say I think Doddie's points are seriously well put togeher and if all seperatists came over like that, then Independence would be a formality. However, Unionists keep getting accused of failing to put valid arguments forward regarding the Status Quo, but I would imagine the most simplistic one is the fear of change. I have seen/heard nothing whatsoever to convince me that hacking lumps out of the Union would be beneficial to anyone (bar civil servants). It's nothing to do with self loathing, it's the fear of Left wing gravy trains raping the country. The evidence is there for all to see, we gave Scottish people the chance to govern themselves and they blew it. Those Scottish bastions of Socialism told us it would cost £35million for the parliament...it cost 400 and odd million. That should be the end of it. No credabiity, no talent and no concept whatsover about how best to be Scotland's custodians.

Much that i'm a staunch Unionist, the only way I would concede seperation is if Scotland was run on a Centre/Right basis outwith the EU. Not going to happen, therefore i'll stick with my pro Union stance.

Only a blinkered Tory could come up with such tosh. It was Thatcher and her fat cat friends in the city that raped this country of its assets. Also can you use your little education that you may have had to spell check you rants

[The_Todd]

Much that i'm a staunch Unionist, the only way I would concede seperation is if Scotland was run on a Centre/Right basis outwith the EU. Not going to happen, therefore i'll stick with my pro Union stance.

Give me a centre left UK over a centre right independent Scotland anyday.

No danger of Scotland being centre-right anyway. Phew!

[lucky]

Give me a centre left UK over a centre right independent Scotland anyday.

No danger of Scotland being centre-right anyway. Phew!


:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

[--------]

Have to say I think Doddie's points are seriously well put togeher and if all seperatists came over like that, then Independence would be a formality. However, Unionists keep getting accused of failing to put valid arguments forward regarding the Status Quo, but I would imagine the most simplistic one is the fear of change. I have seen/heard nothing whatsoever to convince me that hacking lumps out of the Union would be beneficial to anyone (bar civil servants). It's nothing to do with self loathing, it's the fear of Left wing gravy trains raping the country. The evidence is there for all to see, we gave Scottish people the chance to govern themselves and they blew it. Those Scottish bastions of Socialism told us it would cost £35million for the parliament...it cost 400 and odd million. That should be the end of it. No credabiity, no talent and no concept whatsover about how best to be Scotland's custodians.

Much that i'm a staunch Unionist, the only way I would concede seperation is if Scotland was run on a Centre/Right basis outwith the EU. Not going to happen, therefore i'll stick with my pro Union stance.


the referendum you refer to took place nearly 30 years ao. I think we've all moved on since then - except perhaps yourself.

And as for the incompetence of Donald Dewar and the then Labour Government in Westminster, the venality and incompetence of successive Scottish Labour Executives in Holyrood, or even the rapacity and venality toward Scotland of previous Tory Governments in Westminster (you don't mention that bit) - you'll get no argument from me about any of that.

But I WILL point out that Thatcher, Major, Forsyth, Dewar, McLeish, McConnell, Blair, Brown, Darling and the rest of that parcel of dishonest and incompetent rogues are ALL UNIONISTS.

[lucky]

the referendum you refer to took place nearly 30 years ao. I think we've all moved on since then - except perhaps yourself.

And as for the incompetence of Donald Dewar and the then Labour Government in Westminster, the venality and incompetence of successive Scottish Labour Executives in Holyrood, or even the rapacity and venality toward Scotland of previous Tory Governments in Westminster (you don't mention that bit) - you'll get no argument from me about any of that.

But I WILL point out that Thatcher, Major, Forsyth, Dewar, McLeish, McConnell, Blair, Brown, Darling and the rest of that parcel of dishonest and incompetent rogues are ALL UNIONISTS.

This where I believe the majority of Scots get turned off by SNP supporters. There is now way I or the majority of Scots would support anything to do with the Tory party. Yet because they believe in the UK you try and lump us all together. Labour have been fighting for working people long before the SNP were formed. The polices of the Labour government are not they could be but they are not Tories

[HibbyGuBrath]

This where I believe the majority of Scots get turned off by SNP supporters. There is now way I or the majority of Scots would support anything to do with the Tory party. Yet because they believe in the UK you try and lump us all together. Labour have been fighting for working people long before the SNP were formed. The polices of the Labour government are not they could be but they are not Tories

Lucky, they are all unionists. Of course there are big differences between them on other things, but that is one thing they have in common and one thing that heavily influences all their politics.

On your other point... Are you familiar with Robert Cunninghame Graham? Widely regarded as the first socialist elected to the UK parliament and founder of the Scottish Labour Party in 1888 (before the any UK Labour Party existed).

Cunninghame Graham later helped form the National Party for Scotland which later became the Scottish National Party.

[New Corrie]

This where I believe the majority of Scots get turned off by SNP supporters. There is now way I or the majority of Scots would support anything to do with the Tory party. Yet because they believe in the UK you try and lump us all together. Labour have been fighting for working people long before the SNP were formed. The polices of the Labour government are not they could be but they are not Tories

And you question my spelling! Have a look at your posts you slavering arse.

[lucky]

And you question my spelling! Have a look at your posts you slavering arse.

I do question your attempts at English but as usual with your type petty name calling is your limit:bye::bye:

[nrogara]

The woman standing for the Tories - Davena Rankin - works at Glasgow Caley Uni (as do I).

Can you believe shes the Unison rep for this place?

A Tory?

It doesn't quite compute... :confused:

A black Scottish female Tory...oh my Annabel Goldies :greengrin

[lucky]

A black Scottish female Tory...oh my Annabel Goldies :greengrin

She does appear to be a little confused. i would have thought other union members would vote her out of office.

[JimBHibees]

This where I believe the majority of Scots get turned off by SNP supporters. There is now way I or the majority of Scots would support anything to do with the Tory party. Yet because they believe in the UK you try and lump us all together. Labour have been fighting for working people long before the SNP were formed. The polices of the Labour government are not they could be but they are not Tories

Yet Labour are quite happy to toe along with the union parties when it suits them, the latest one the talk of the referendum. Wendy's bring it on seems to have been replaced by eh we better no bother.

I think a large amount of the working class will have been wondering when the Labour party are going to start bothering about them again given their slavishness to big business and the farcical 10p tax blunder amongst other things.

[steakbake]

She does appear to be a little confused. i would have thought other union members would vote her out of office.

hereabove, the extent of tolerance and democratic principles in the UK labour party, as expressed by one of their members!

[--------]

hereabove, the extent of tolerance and democratic principles in the UK labour party, as expressed by one of their members!


Does he object to her being BLACK (he's racist), or FEMALE (he's sexist), or a TORY (he's a political bigot)?

I think he should come clean.... :cool2:

[cleanyman]

Ive read this whole thread and is really interesting, now thats strange coming from a 17 year old. Now from what i can gather those calling themselves British seem to be frightened that we are heading towards independence not the Scots.
I myself want an independent Scotland, i dont want a Parliament that cant make the big decisions but one that has FULL power over the interests of the Scottish people.
I also want a independent state our own country with no ties, i am Scottish not British and im ****ing proud of that.
Oh and that sponging Queen can kiss my erse.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Ive read this whole thread and is really interesting, now thats strange coming from a 17 year old. Now from what i can gather those calling themselves British seem to be frightened that we are heading towards independence not the Scots.
I myself want an independent Scotland, i dont want a Parliament that cant make the big decisions but one that has FULL power over the interests of the Scottish people.
I also want a independent state our own country with no ties, i am Scottish not British and im ****ing proud of that.
Oh and that sponging Queen can kiss my erse.

Not a huge problem with that TBH. However, we will always be British. Even when we get independance we will still be part of the British Isles. I personally do not have a problem with that. Firstly I am Scottish, then I am British, then I am European.

[cleanyman]

Not a huge problem with that TBH. However, we will always be British. Even when we get independance we will still be part of the British Isles. I personally do not have a problem with that. Firstly I am Scottish, then I am British, then I am European.

Oooooo, you might upset a few saying that :wink:

[Future17]

Firstly I am Scottish, then I am British, then I am European.

I'd agree with that. But if Scotland becomes independent, could the first child born after be considered British? :dunno:

[--------]

I'd agree with that. But if Scotland becomes independent, could the first child born after be considered British? :dunno:


Great Britain is the name of the island - right now we're part of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The group of islands (Great Britain, Ireland, the Hebrides, Isle of Man, etc) is called "The British Isles". "Britain" is the name of the group of islands - just as "Scandinavia" is the name of the region that includes Norway, Seden, Denmark, etc.

When we get our independence, we will be "Scotland".

The rest will probably have to call itself "The United Kingdom of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland". (They can call themselves Cloud-Cuckoo Land for all I care....)

So I guess we'll be Scottish by nationality, and 'British' in the sense that a Norwegian or Swede or Dane is 'Scandinavian'.

[lucky]

Does he object to her being BLACK (he's racist), or FEMALE (he's sexist), or a TORY (he's a political bigot)?

I think he should come clean.... :cool2:

Not racist
not sexist
but definitely would object if I was a unison member who was represented by someone who had aspirations to represent the Tory party in parliament.

But what makes you think I am not a black woman? or are you attempting stereotype me?:greengrin

But come now surely you are a political bigot along with BS and me several others on here:greengrin

[Future17]

But what makes you think I am not a black woman? or are you attempting stereotype me?:greengrin

You could be a black woman and still be a racist sexist against those groups. Or are you sterotyping your stereotype? :dizzy::greengrin

[--------]

Not racist
not sexist
but definitely would object if I was a unison member who was represented by someone who had aspirations to represent the Tory party in parliament.

But what makes you think I am not a black woman? or are you attempting stereotype me?:greengrin

But come now surely you are a political bigot along with BS and me several others on here:greengrin


You're NOT a Unison member? Then what has it to do with you what party she belongs to? Isn't her fitness as a candidate or otherwise a matter for Unison members alone? Or do you think the Labour Party should have the right to approve or disapprove union officials? I thought 'democracy' means everyone has the right to stand in an election?

For what it's worth, I've been a member of four unions in my lifetime. The worst union reps I've encountered by far were ALL card-carrying, time-served members of the Labour Party, and without exception as much use as a bunch of chocolate teapots. And that's not bigotry, mate - that's the sad fruit of experience.


Now THIS, in my humble opinion, DOES represent a bigotted attitude -

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrie greens http://www.hibs.net/message/images_greenish/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?p=1684695#post1684695)
As the SNP supporters suggested earlier on here, it's time for the remaining Unionists to put up with their brand of politics or leave the country (and of course they claim not to be a Racist party). The SNP are that thick that they acually believe this Glasgow East result is a vote for seperation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrie greens http://www.hibs.net/message/images_greenish/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?p=1684735#post1684735)
There is only one party (in all the years I have followed politics) who have daubed their emblem on walls. bridges etc, normally alongside "English Go Home" yet you and all the other Nats refuse to concede that they are a Racist party. Yes I am chipper that after the next election (you know the real one, not the silly Inter Toto one they hold up here) will be won by the Conservatives. A chance to point Britain in the right direction again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrie greens http://www.hibs.net/message/images_greenish/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?p=1684803#post1684803)
Say it often enough and you'll end up believing it to be the case. I must have imagined all the grafitti with the SNP emblem accompanied with English go home.


Maybe it's just living in the Caldera, but I haven't seen any of all this alleged racist grafitti fom the SNP. Maybe someone can tell me where it all is? :cool2:

[lucky]

You're NOT a Unison member? Then what has it to do with you what party she belongs to? Isn't her fitness as a candidate or otherwise a matter for Unison members alone? Or do you think the Labour Party should have the right to approve or disapprove union officials? I thought 'democracy' means everyone has the right to stand in an election?

For what it's worth, I've been a member of four unions in my lifetime. The worst union reps I've encountered by far were ALL card-carrying, time-served members of the Labour Party, and without exception as much use as a bunch of chocolate teapots. And that's not bigotry, mate - that's the sad fruit of experience.


Now THIS, in my humble opinion, DOES represent a bigotted attitude -

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrie greens http://www.hibs.net/message/images_greenish/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?p=1684695#post1684695)
As the SNP supporters suggested earlier on here, it's time for the remaining Unionists to put up with their brand of politics or leave the country (and of course they claim not to be a Racist party). The SNP are that thick that they acually believe this Glasgow East result is a vote for seperation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrie greens http://www.hibs.net/message/images_greenish/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?p=1684735#post1684735)
There is only one party (in all the years I have followed politics) who have daubed their emblem on walls. bridges etc, normally alongside "English Go Home" yet you and all the other Nats refuse to concede that they are a Racist party. Yes I am chipper that after the next election (you know the real one, not the silly Inter Toto one they hold up here) will be won by the Conservatives. A chance to point Britain in the right direction again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrie greens http://www.hibs.net/message/images_greenish/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?p=1684803#post1684803)
Say it often enough and you'll end up believing it to be the case. I must have imagined all the grafitti with the SNP emblem accompanied with English go home.


Maybe it's just living in the Caldera, but I haven't seen any of all this alleged racist grafitti fom the SNP. Maybe someone can tell me where it all is? :cool2:

I am a union member but even the most blinkered anti labour person as yourself can surely see that being in the Tory party and being a union rep are diametrically opposite as such I would not want her as my rep. The Bull spouted by Corrie is for him answer. It is sad that you believe that all union reps must poor cos they are in Labour party. I have been in the Labour party for around 20 years and been in a union for 25 years. I have seen some great people in both organisations to make me believe that the Labour and trade union movement have made a difference. As for outstanding Nat's there have only been a few Wee Eck, Margo (she left them though) and Dr McCartney from the 1970's-1980's though he sadly died.

[Riz]

Very simplistic.

You're seriously deluded if you think all Nats sit in front of the telly watching braveheart wearing kilts and sporting painted saltires on their faces shouting obscenities at the English.

Funny how you can say only those with no clue about politics are interested in independence after posting a rant like that! :bye:

Its fianlly happened ... we agree. :agree:

[--------]

I am a union member but even the most blinkered anti labour person as yourself can surely see that being in the Tory party and being a union rep are diametrically opposite as such I would not want her as my rep. The Bull spouted by Corrie is for him answer. It is sad that you believe that all union reps must poor cos they are in Labour party. I have been in the Labour party for around 20 years and been in a union for 25 years. I have seen some great people in both organisations to make me believe that the Labour and trade union movement have made a difference. As for outstanding Nat's there have only been a few Wee Eck, Margo (she left them though) and Dr McCartney from the 1970's-1980's though he sadly died.


Blinkered? I don't like the Labour Party because I don't like what I see it doing in areas like where I'm living just now. Just because I disagree with Labour's position and policies doesn't make me blinkered.

The Labour Government took us into an illegal war in Iraq, which has led to unspeakable suffering for the Iraqi people. I disagree with this - that makes me 'blinkered'?

The Labour Government turns a blind eye to rendition flights using Prestwick as a stop-off on the way to delivering the victims to torture and probable death. I don't like this - that makes me blinkered?

The Scottish Labour Executive under Jack McConnell planned to shut down the A & E Unit at our local hospital. I disagreed with that - that makes me 'blinkered'?

I consider a candidate's personal qualities and abilities more relevant to whether I want them representing me in my union than the party card they carry - that makes me blinkered?

Our local primary school was built by a private company for the local authority. Financial strings were very firmly attached, which mean that after school hours high crental charges (investors have to have their pound of flesh, you know) mean that the building is almost entirely unused. I don't like this, so I must be blinkered?

My own local representatives, John Reid and Karen Whitefield - the People's Champions, I don't think.

I could go on....

How on earth can someone with your signature still be going along with the crap that Scottish Labour have been throwing at the people of Scotland for the last 50 years? Labour are no more Socialist than the Liberals or the Tories. But then a fair number of Attlee's party thought Joe Stalin was just a good ol' boy....

The Red Flag the people's flag? Aye, right! Take YOUR OWN blinkers off and open your eyes, for goodness' sake.

[lucky]

Blinkered? I don't like the Labour Party because I don't like what I see it doing in areas like where I'm living just now. Just because I disagree with Labour's position and policies doesn't make me blinkered.

The Labour Government took us into an illegal war in Iraq, which has led to unspeakable suffering for the Iraqi people. I disagree with this - that makes me 'blinkered'?

The Labour Government turns a blind eye to rendition flights using Prestwick as a stop-off on the way to delivering the victims to torture and probable death. I don't like this - that makes me blinkered?

The Scottish Labour Executive under Jack McConnell planned to shut down the A & E Unit at our local hospital. I disagreed with that - that makes me 'blinkered'?

I consider a candidate's personal qualities and abilities more relevant to whether I want them representing me in my union than the party card they carry - that makes me blinkered?

Our local primary school was built by a private company for the local authority. Financial strings were very firmly attached, which mean that after school hours high crental charges (investors have to have their pound of flesh, you know) mean that the building is almost entirely unused. I don't like this, so I must be blinkered?

My own local representatives, John Reid and Karen Whitefield - the People's Champions, I don't think.

I could go on....

How on earth can someone with your signature still be going along with the crap that Scottish Labour have been throwing at the people of Scotland for the last 50 years? Labour are no more Socialist than the Liberals or the Tories. But then a fair number of Attlee's party thought Joe Stalin was just a good ol' boy....

The Red Flag the people's flag? Aye, right! Take YOUR OWN blinkers off and open your eyes, for goodness' sake.

whilst I never supported the war in Iraq, it was the parliament that voted for it.

Rendition flights again no proof that they landed in Scotland.

Monklands hospital never closed or lost any services under Labour.

I know Karen and John personally both have spent their life's fighting for the people they represent. In Karen I believe you are lucky to have such a dedicated MSP for both sides of the constituency.

So your blinkered

PFI/PPP---SNP are proposing similar with Scottish bonds, however I do beleive that the councils should build schools not private cash

[Future17]

Rendition flights again no proof that they landed in Scotland.


The following is taken from a 2005 press release by Amnesty International USA:

On October 23, 2001, witnesses saw Jamil Qasim Saeed Mohammed being bundled on board a Gulfstream V, registration N379P, by a group of masked men. The plane flew Jamil Qasim Saeed Mohammed to Jordan. The following day, the Gulfstream flew to Glasgow Prestwick to refuel, then back to Dulles International Airport near Washington, DC. Amnesty International has repeatedly requested information from the U.S. authorities about the current whereabouts and legal status of Jamil Qasim Saeed Mohammed, but has received no reply.

On December 18/19, 2001, according to an inquiry conducted by the Swedish Parliamentary Ombudsmen, the Gulfstream V took Ahmed Agiza and Mohammed al-Zari from Sweden to Cairo. Amnesty International's records show that the plane made several trips between Cairo and Prestwick earlier in the month, and it stopped to refuel at Prestwick after leaving the two detainees in Cairo, where they were reportedly tortured. In March 2005, the Chief Parliamentary Ombudsman in Sweden, having reviewed the Swedish government's role in the transfer to Egypt of the two detainees, concluded "the Swedish Security Police lost control of the situation at the airport and during the transport to Egypt. The American security personnel took charge... Such total surrender of power to exercise public authority on Swedish territory is clearly contrary to Swedish law."

On January 12, 2002, according to Indonesian security officials, the Gulfsteam V, N379P, took Muhammad Saad Iqbal Madni from Jakarta to Cairo. Amnesty International records confirm previous media reports that when the plane left Cairo, it flew to Prestwick to refuel. Iqbal Madni has since been returned to U.S. custody and is currently being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He does not have a lawyer, and other detainees have said in the last month that he is in poor condition and "at risk of losing his mind."

As well as Prestwick and various RAF bases, rendition flights have also landed in British Overseas Territories such as Diego Garcia and the Turks and Caicos Islands. The Labour government was complicit in support of the use of UK Territories for the purpose of rendition.

[--------]

whilst I never supported the war in Iraq, it was the parliament that voted for it.

It was Blair who took us into it and you know it. At least have the courage to stand by your leader.

Rendition flights again no proof that they landed in Scotland.

Rubbish. See Future17's post above. Take your head out the sand for crying out loud.

Monklands hospital never closed or lost any services under Labour.

No - because you got tossed out before you could implement the plans. You're spinning like a top there, bud.

I know Karen and John personally both have spent their life's fighting for the people they represent. In Karen I believe you are lucky to have such a dedicated MSP for both sides of the constituency.

A touching reference. I'll agree to differ, then. Mind you - I hope you know more about this than you know about the rendition issue.

PFI/PPP---SNP are proposing similar with Scottish bonds, however I do beleive that the councils should build schools not private cash

The trick with PPP/PFI projects is to make sure the initial agreement serves the community's interests as well as the private companies concerned - I don't like them, but with a properly drawn-up agreement they can work. Labour in North Lanarkshire were making it up as they went along.

For the record - I'm not a member of any political party. I just happen to think that my country would get on a lot better if we weren't tied into what I consider is a damaging and disadvantageous Union.

[lucky]

The trick with PPP/PFI projects is to make sure the initial agreement serves the community's interests as well as the private companies concerned - I don't like them, but with a properly drawn-up agreement they can work. Labour in North Lanarkshire were making it up as they went along.

For the record - I'm not a member of any political party. I just happen to think that my country would get on a lot better if we weren't tied into what I consider is a damaging and disadvantageous Union.

all the initial contracts were poor but at least the schools got built. But I am not a fan.
Rendition flights again what proof except a poster on .net
As for your local politicians get along to their surgeries to meet them before you pass comment.
And as a gesture of goodwill towards a fellow Hibby get your self along to the Indian restaurant in Newmains its a cracker

[Future17]

Rendition flights again what proof except a poster on .net


http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=16679

[LiverpoolHibs]

all the initial contracts were poor but at least the schools got built. But I am not a fan.
Rendition flights again what proof except a poster on .net
As for your local politicians get along to their surgeries to meet them before you pass comment.
And as a gesture of goodwill towards a fellow Hibby get your self along to the Indian restaurant in Newmains its a cracker

Come off it!

You come across as equivalent to the old Stalinists defending the Soviet Union even though they don't really believe it themselves.

As I've said to you before how anyone with that signature can so slavishly support the contemporary Labour Party is absolutely beyond me.

[--------]

all the initial contracts were poor but at least the schools got built. But I am not a fan.
Rendition flights again what proof except a poster on .net
As for your local politicians get along to their surgeries to meet them before you pass comment.
And as a gesture of goodwill towards a fellow Hibby get your self along to the Indian restaurant in Newmains its a cracker


Try Amnesty International.

Face it, mate - your pals in Westminster (including my worthy local MP, the Biggest Soapdodger of Them All) are major suspects in a serious breach of human rights here.

Maybe the odd individual didn't know what was happening, but I'd be very VERY surprised INDEED if the then Prime Minister Tony Blair and the then Home Secretary John Reid didn't.

Mind you, NOBODY seems to have much of a clue at the Home Office/Justice Ministry these days.

(Orwell was right - when they want to cover something nasty up, this government just calls it by a different name, and all the party members fall into line, and abracadabra - it never happened.)

As for the schools - ask the teachers what THEY think about the situation. No one asked them how they'd like things to be before the decisions were made. But they're having to live and work among the consequences.

Same with Monklands - the decree came down fom on high (well, the health minister's office in Embra) that A & E was to be closed - no one asked the patients. And unless I missed something, our local representatives were only conspicuous by their silence. Toeing the party line? :cool2:

And why do you assume I'm so bigotted as to pass comment on people I've never met or had contact with? I live in North Lanarkshire, which has been run by Scottish Labour since Joe Stalin was still handing out the nine-gram ration to anyone who disagreed with him - and as LH says, being loudly defended by many fellow-travellers in the Scottish and British Labour Parties as he did so. What I see, and how things are, and the people I meet - that's what forms my opinions, not a doctrinaire attachment to any party line.

The Labour movement has in the past held honourable principles, and I honour them, but right now the Labour Party is about as socialist as Eva Peron or Bill Gates.

(The big mistake was about 100 years ago, when Keir Hardie listened to the collectivist bourgeois-fascistic Fabians and George Bernard Shaw rather than James Connolly and the IWW. Discuss. :wink:)

And thanks for the heads-up about the restaurant. :devil:

[lucky]

Try Amnesty International.

Face it, mate - your pals in Westminster (including my worthy local MP, the Biggest Soapdodger of Them All) are major suspects in a serious breach of human rights here.

Maybe the odd individual didn't know what was happening, but I'd be very VERY surprised INDEED if the then Prime Minister Tony Blair and the then Home Secretary John Reid didn't.

Mind you, NOBODY seems to have much of a clue at the Home Office/Justice Ministry these days.

(Orwell was right - when they want to cover something nasty up, this government just calls it by a different name, and all the party members fall into line, and abracadabra - it never happened.)

As for the schools - ask the teachers what THEY think about the situation. No one asked them how they'd like things to be before the decisions were made. But they're having to live and work among the consequences.

Same with Monklands - the decree came down fom on high (well, the health minister's office in Embra) that A & E was to be closed - no one asked the patients. And unless I missed something, our local representatives were only conspicuous by their silence. Toeing the party line? :cool2:

And why do you assume I'm so bigotted as to pass comment on people I've never met or had contact with? I live in North Lanarkshire, which has been run by Scottish Labour since Joe Stalin was still handing out the nine-gram ration to anyone who disagreed with him - and as LH says, being loudly defended by many fellow-travellers in the Scottish and British Labour Parties as he did so. What I see, and how things are, and the people I meet - that's what forms my opinions, not a doctrinaire attachment to any party line.

The Labour movement has in the past held honourable principles, and I honour them, but right now the Labour Party is about as socialist as Eva Peron or Bill Gates.

(The big mistake was about 100 years ago, when Keir Hardie listened to the collectivist bourgeois-fascistic Fabians and George Bernard Shaw rather than James Connolly and the IWW. Discuss. :wink:)

And thanks for the heads-up about the restaurant. :devil:

Dodie , my old chum it appears me and you are not going to agree that the sky is blue and the grass is green. However I must point out that Karen and John both took part in demo's against the hospital closers put forward by Andy Kerr and they were successful. I would also point out no Lanarkshire MSP is supporting Kerr for the next First Minister of Scotland.

[--------]

Doddie, :cool2: (sp) my old chum it appears me and you are not going to agree that the sky is blue and the grass is green. However I must point out that Karen and John both took part in demo's against the hospital closers put forward by Andy Kerr and they were successful. I would also point out no Lanarkshire MSP is supporting Kerr for the next First Minister of Scotland.


Probably not.

If I have accused either Reid or Whitefield unfairly, then I apologise and withdraw the comment.

It's a pity that so many of their colleagues were so set on the scheme.

Personally, I'd like to see Gray succeed. He's a complete and perfect plook. :devil:

[lucky]

Come off it!

You come across as equivalent to the old Stalinists defending the Soviet Union even though they don't really believe it themselves.

As I've said to you before how anyone with that signature can so slavishly support the contemporary Labour Party is absolutely beyond me.

My support for the Scottish Labour party is not and never has been slavishly. I will defend when I believe the Party are right and criticise when wrong. However I will continue to fight from within the party for changes which bring the party in line with its grassroots support.

[Future17]

My support for the Scottish Labour party is not and never has been slavishly. I will defend when I believe the Party are right and criticise when wrong. However I will continue to fight from within the party for changes which bring the party in line with its grassroots support.

And are you still defending the Labour Government's involvement in rendition flights?