The 9/11 Third tower mystery

[Silver Fox]

I hadn't heard of it previously but read the BBC article here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7485331.stm), this morning.

:wink: Ah another conspiracy theory, this one sounds feasible though, especially when you hear who rented/used that particular tower, tower :7:

You can watch the vid of its collapse and it does look like a controlled demolition, to the untrained eye. :dizzy:

[Jack]

Your right, to my untrained eye, it looks like a better job than some of these demolitions where folk spend days/weeks weakening the structure and scientifically placing explosives.

I’ve read a lot of [internet] stuff about the events running up to 7/11 and what happened afterwards. There's a reek of official misinformation about the whole thing, so much in fact its my opinion that the truth will never be known.

[RyeSloan]

Your right, to my untrained eye, it looks like a better job than some of these demolitions where folk spend days/weeks weakening the structure and scientifically placing explosives.

I’ve read a lot of [internet] stuff about the events running up to 7/11 and what happened afterwards. There's a reek of official misinformation about the whole thing, so much in fact its my opinion that the truth will never be known.


Not half as much as the mis information the alleged conspiracy theorists band about tho!!

I too have seen a lot of the conspiracy stuff v government stuff and to be honest tower 7 is the ONLY one that looks even remotely possible.

Still I'm of the belief that if you are going to the huge effort of flying planes into the WTC towers, blowing up the pentagon you might just might think about bringing down tower 7 in a manner that WOULDNT arouse suspicion. Also the reasons for it are weak...it was the control centre for the whole fraud...aye well very good why did it have to be destroyed, not like the government was gonna charge in and arrest itself was it.

I'm of mind that although fire was classed as unlikley but poosible the fact that the building burned unattended for hours and had no working sprinkler system makes it much more likely it collapsed on it's own rather than brought down by the CIA...as I don't buy into the bigger conspiracy then I suppose this is no real surprise.

[GreenandGlaikit]

The 911 "Truthers" :rolleyes: make GW Bush look like Albert Einstein and Vlad The Indisputably Mad look perfectly sane.

It's bollocks, utter bollocks. The proponents need incarcerating in secure instututions where, hopefully, remedial therapy will be administered.:wink:

[degenerated]

I hadn't heard of it previously but read the BBC article here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7485331.stm), this morning.

:wink: Ah another conspiracy theory, this one sounds feasible though, especially when you hear who rented/used that particular tower, tower :7:

You can watch the vid of its collapse and it does look like a controlled demolition, to the untrained eye. :dizzy:

this would be the one that the BBC reported as collpasing before it actually did. :confused:

there's something seriously dodgy about this whole affair and state sponsored tv programmes like the one the other night are not going to convince me that bush & co were not complicit in this.

[GreenandGlaikit]

this would be the one that the BBC reported as collpasing before it actually did. :confused:

there's something seriously dodgy about this whole affair and state sponsored tv programmes like the one the other night are not going to convince me that bush & co were not complicit in this.

Correct.

Dodgy and crazy analysis bi half-wits.

[degenerated]

Correct.

Dodgy and crazy analysis bi half-wits.


i would tend to agree, the popular mechanics guys and the documentary the other night exemplified that :agree:

[GreenandGlaikit]

i would tend to agree, the popular mechanics guys and the documentary the other night exemplified that :agree:

That reply (if its understood correctly :dunno:) indicates that technians and scientists that apply rational thought and experimentation tae describe or explain physical events are spouting nonsense.

Are ye really saying that The Scientific Method is somehow invalid?

[degenerated]

That reply (if its understood correctly :dunno:) indicates that technians and scientists that apply rational thought and experimentation tae describe or explain physical events are spouting nonsense.

Are ye really saying that The Scientific Method is somehow invalid?

that's dependant upon the scientists in question and more importantly their agenda

[MrRobot]

The 911 "Truthers" :rolleyes: make GW Bush look like Albert Einstein and Vlad The Indisputably Mad look perfectly sane.

It's bollocks, utter bollocks. The proponents need incarcerating in secure instututions where, hopefully, remedial therapy will be administered.:wink:

How did a Plane with a huge wing span manage to only create a hole of 7m Diameter in the Pentagon when it crashed through it, and the reports saying they say a military plane flying at around the time.

Also, Osama bin Laden's confession tape, in it he is writing right handed when in fact he is actualy left handed.

Theres a whole lot of unknown truth about it all.

Those towers should have been able to withstand the heat of the explosion, but the way they were manufactured meant they used cheaper metal(that couldnt withstand the heat as much) and they 'collapsed'. If a building was to collapse due to the metal girders melting, then surely it would bend, and the top would have bent over the rest and fallen down. Instead the whole thing collapsed from the bottom like a controlled explosion.

Also what caused the explosion when the planes hit the towers ? Yes, metal crashing into metal can cause a spark and they carry heavy fuel, but the fuel tanks are protected by metal and everything.

And apperntly important government people were told not to fly that day, and it wasnt commercial planes that crashed into the building and they werent even registered as flynig that day(apperntly)

I think theres a weird story behind it all. I certainly believe there could be alot of truth in the conspiracy side. I'm sure America even owed Osama bin Ladens family money that the American government borrowed from them.


Theres a documentary called loose change kicking about somewhere. Give it a watch, might change your mind. I was always in the "nah theres no conspiracy at all" mindset. After watching, I changed my mind completely.

[Calvin]

You can present anything in the right way to make it appear as fact. Loose Change certainly does this.

However, I'm also of the opinion that things weren't as straight forward as officially suggested.

[MrRobot]

Also the black boxes were never recovered when they should have been.

[MrRobot]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oVH5jm06pJY&feature=related
Not a comerrcial plane ^^

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wbCcb6NV8Io&feature=related
Missile hit

http://youtube.com/watch?v=paWiZ2Y8fRg&feature=related
Dodgy pentagon claims

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmP2Vy8K0i0&feature=related
Wasnt a plan that hit it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8zyjY05wzao&watch_response
Firefighters

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rwhU15UY3Fc&feature=related
Says it was a bomb in lobby.

[MrRobot]

One showing the bombs.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ncql4Fqcp7k&feature=related

[Silver Fox]

You can present anything in the right way to make it appear as fact. Loose Change certainly does this.

However, I'm also of the opinion that things weren't as straight forward as officially suggested.


No sure about the loose change one, but here's one;

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

EDIT; It has audio!

[GreenandGlaikit]

Degenerated, Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear. "Agenda's" that would therefore make them co-conspirators then.:rolleyes:


Hibbycal, nae offence, however, never watched yer Youtube links - the accompanying text is intrinsically sufficient tae render them utterly worthless - heard it before. It's nonsense, irrational nonsense, and because it's irrational its inherently dangerous, unless challenged.

Step back a bit. Please apply common-sense, think rationally, think practically, or please simply think and the ludicrous nature o' the nonsense that the Conspiracy Theory 'industry' promotes should become clear.

It's really sad that many people apparently believe such 911 theories, then again, the Nigerian E-Mail scam 'business' (unbelievably) is still profitable.

If any o' the major claims that were made in that original "Loose Change" video are ever proved correct ie "controlled explosions" :rolleyes:, "missiles" :rolleyes: , "kidnapped passengers" :rolleyes: are ever proved correct - Ah will immediately start supporting Glasgow Rangers FC. :eek:

[MrRobot]

No sure about the loose change one, but here's one;

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

EDIT; It has audio!

Again the amount of evidence in that video shows that it was clearly not a terrorist attack.

[MrRobot]

Degenerated, Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear. "Agenda's" that would therefore make them co-conspirators then.:rolleyes:


Hibbycal, nae offence, however, never watched yer Youtube links - the accompanying text is intrinsically sufficient tae render them utterly worthless - heard it before. It's nonsense, irrational nonsense, and because it's irrational its inherently dangerous, unless challenged.

Step back a bit. Please apply common-sense, think rationally, think practically, or please simply think and the ludicrous nature o' the nonsense that the Conspiracy Theory 'industry' promotes should become clear.

It's really sad that many people apparently believe such 911 theories, then again, the Nigerian E-Mail scam 'business' (unbelievably) is still profitable.

If any o' the major claims that were made in that original "Loose Change" video are ever proved correct ie "controlled explosions" :rolleyes:, "missiles" :rolleyes: , "kidnapped passengers" :rolleyes: are ever proved correct - Ah will immediately start supporting Glasgow Rangers FC. :eek:


Nae offence taken, but just the amount of evidence there seems to be. I think theres something real dodgy about it. Why did George Bush lie and say he seen the first attack on telly when in fact nobody did as it was a surprise attack ? He never left the classroom even after hearing America was under attack(maybe he knew he wasnt a target as I know if I heard my country was under attack and I was the President, I'd be fleeing).

Just seems to dodgy.

[GreenandGlaikit]

Nae offence taken, but just the amount of evidence there seems to be. I think theres something real dodgy about it. Why did George Bush lie and say he seen the first attack on telly when in fact nobody did as it was a surprise attack ? He never left the classroom even after hearing America was under attack(maybe he knew he wasnt a target as I know if I heard my country was under attack and I was the President, I'd be fleeing).

Just seems to dodgy.


Sorry, that's pretty meaningless, and like the rest o' Conspiracy Theory 'evidence' it's subposition and or subjective interpretation.

Nae idea what went through George W's mind , mibbee - like a dinosaur - it takes a fair while before 'information' is processed. :greengrin

That this particular President would be capable o' master-minding the greatest conspiracy and secret in Human History is pretty risible.

[MrRobot]

Sorry, that's pretty meaningless, and like the rest o' Conspiracy Theory 'evidence' it's subposition and or subjective interpretation.

Nae idea what went through George W's mind , mibbee - like a dinosaur - it takes a fair while before 'information' is processed. :greengrin

That this particular President would be capable o' master-minding the greatest conspiracy and secret in Human History is pretty risible.


:greengrin

Still think there is something dodgy TBH.

[Baldy]

I think the whole think stinks, If the 7th tower collapsed by itself then where did the "TOP SECRET" files go?, suppossedly they all burnt and left no papers flying about, but come on seriously .... surely there must be atleast some papers found lying about after the event, there were papers from almsot every other office found.


Having visited the site and the memorial museum last year, I was in tears reading some of the messages left behind and listening to phone messages etc left as people jumped ....

[degenerated]

That this particular President would be capable o' master-minding the greatest conspiracy and secret in Human History is pretty risible.

if you think for a minute that bush pulls the strings or master minds any of the policies inflicted upon the world by the american government, then perhaps you should be the one watching out for 419 scamming :wink:

[Betty Boop]

Also the black boxes were never recovered when they should have been.Aye but Mohammed Atta's passport was found intact! :wink:

[Green Mikey]

IMO these theories are a load of nonsense. There may be a degree of cover up by the US government regarding there inability to stop the attacks and incompetence during the attacks.

To say that Bush and his administration could instigate a conspiracy on this scale is beyond belief. The amount of people that would have to be involved would be staggering. One of these peolpe would surely speak out to the media, also there would be some evidence that couldn't be covered up. It seems that all the conspiracy theory supporters are internet wackos who have nothing better to spend their time on.

The real tragedy about the attacks is that many people have lost their lives during the attacks and even more life have been lost in the subsequent wars America and Britain have waiged as vengence 9/11.

[degenerated]

Aye but Mohammed Atta's passport was found intact! :wink:

one of green and glaikits scientist buddies from popular mechanics or whatever will explain that one once they have finished debating the relative merits of the 5 top secrets to building a shed and ufos at roswell :stirrer:

[GreenandGlaikit]

if you think for a minute that bush pulls the strings or master minds any of the policies inflicted upon the world by the american government, then perhaps you should be the one watching out for 419 scamming :wink:

George W. Bush : - the 911 nutters repeatedly said him and his Administration cynically engineered the attacks - is this now changing?

Hope it's now The Lizards which are tae blame.- that would cheer me up enormously :thumbsup: :hilarious

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_humanoid#David_Icke

[GreenandGlaikit]

one of green and glaikits scientist buddies from popular mechanics or whatever will explain that one once they have finished debating the relative merits of the 5 top secrets to building a shed and ufos at roswell :stirrer:

People win the Euro lottery, lightning strikes people (sometimes multiple times within their lifetimes), people contract rare illnesses, etc., etc. Is it, therefore, totally beyond any reasonable conjection that some artifacts might survive two separate plane crashes - especially something which is, essentially, paper?

Re. discounting scientists, scientific methodology and scientific evidence. Where does that usually lead? Irrationality, superstition and paranoia.

In fact, the very things which feed crazy conspiracy theories; the snake devours its tail..

[Betty Boop]

one of green and glaikits scientist buddies from popular mechanics or whatever will explain that one once they have finished debating the relative merits of the 5 top secrets to building a shed and ufos at roswell :stirrer::greengrin

[degenerated]

George W. Bush : - the 911 nutters repeatedly said him and his Administration cynically engineered the attacks - is this now changing?

Hope it's now The Lizards which are tae blame.- that would cheer me up enormously :thumbsup: :hilarious

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_humanoid#David_Icke

you assume that :-

1) i am a nutter
2) i said that bush engineered 9/11
3)i wear a torquoise shell suit and beleive arran will disappear into the sea

wrongly i may add.

the PNAC policy document prepared by the neocon loonies prior to 9/11 claimed they required a new pearl harbour to precipitate their plan for world domination. i am sure even a man of science will find it hard pushed to disagree :agree:

bloody handy that it happened so soon after they decided it was necessary, that along with all the other co-incendences that this chapter in history (more so than any other) seems to be littered with leads me to believe that something other than an uncatchable man in a cave in afghanistan is behind this.

now if you trust the word of government employed scientists and meccanoists then i am not about to decry your point of view, thats your choice to be red, white and brainwashed. i'll form my beliefs on the fact that i know there isn't anything these people wouldn't do for power, control and ultimately money.

[paullotion]

Also the black boxes were never recovered when they should have been. It is true that the black-boxes at the WTC were never found officially:

A 9-11 rescue worker recently came forward to say he was told by FBI agents to “keep my mouth shut” about one of the “black boxes” a fellow firefighter helped locate at ground zero, contradicting the official story that none of the flight and cockpit data recorders were ever recovered in the wreckage of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers. Honorary firefighter Mike Bellone claims he was approached by unknown bureau agents a short time after he and his partner, Nicholas DeMasi, a retired New York firefighter, found three of the four “black boxes” among the WTC rubble before January 2002. The pair first claimed in an August 2003 book entitled Behind the Scene: Ground Zero to have found the data recorders. http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2572

Make of it as you will.

As for Flight77(Pentagon)you can watch the FDR as provided by the NTSB, see how the flight-path on the FDR is different to the official story and more importantly, have a look at the actual/true attitude seconds before impact, over 200ft. Pandora's Black Box - Chapter 2: Flight of American 77 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4648624627192508186&hl=en)

<ul>Also, why has the FBI refused to release the aircraft component serial number data, this would prove which aircraft were involved , if there is nothing to hide, there is nothing to fear. FAA Withholds Pre-9/11 ID Confirming Aircraft Serial Number Data Of 9/11 Planes | 911Blogger.com (http://www.911blogger.com/node/13149)
<ul>On a lighter not see Click-Me (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tVgXTrA3Ovs)
There is also many Iraq war vets now openingly protesting against the war, over 10,000 troops are AWOL, see these two videos.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2WvIaDeNIbk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BOj7Nxcn6gg

So NIST are going to say that WTC7 was brought down by extraordinary fires, WT3, WT4, WT5, WT6 which were closer to WTC1&2 sustained much more damage but they never collapsed in what looked like a professional demolition job. I`m sure those that watch FOX/Sky/BBC news will buy this nonsense

[GreenandGlaikit]

you assume that :-

1) i am a nutter
2) i said that bush engineered 9/11
3)i wear a torquoise shell suit and beleive arran will disappear into the sea

wrongly i may add.

the PNAC policy document prepared by the neocon loonies prior to 9/11 claimed they required a new pearl harbour to precipitate their plan for world domination. i am sure even a man of science will find it hard pushed to disagree :agree:

bloody handy that it happened so soon after they decided it was necessary, that along with all the other co-incendences that this chapter in history (more so than any other) seems to be littered with leads me to believe that something other than an uncatchable man in a cave in afghanistan is behind this.

now if you trust the word of government employed scientists and meccanoists then i am not about to decry your point of view, thats your choice to be red, white and brainwashed. i'll form my beliefs on the fact that i know there isn't anything these people wouldn't do for power, control and ultimately money.

Neither "brain-washed", ' right-wing' , nor a supporter o' George W Bush, and would would be fairly confident that ma political awareness regarding the nefarious acts which American Imperialism is culpable and capable probably far exceeds yer ain.

Made nae such claims that yer "a nutter". However, repeating the lunatic claims o' 911 Conspiracy "Truthers" makes me seriously doubt yer judgement.

Abandoning objective, peer-reviewed, scientific results and opinion because it 'inconveniently' contradicts dogmatic and irrational conspiracy scenarios set bi a plooky teenager in his 'Loose Change' YouTube video really is a slippery slope.

What's next? We believe in Creationism therefore Evolution - despite the overwelming scientific evidence must be wrong ....Oh wait that's George's gig ! :wink:

'Belief' isnae fact, and that's where the conspiracy nutters fail - they confuse personal fantasy wi objective reality.

Ah'll stick tae the Science , thanks. :thumbsup:

[GreenandGlaikit]

It is true that the black-boxes at the WTC were never found officially:

A 9-11 rescue worker recently came forward to say he was told by FBI agents to “keep my mouth shut” about one of the “black boxes” a fellow firefighter helped locate at ground zero, contradicting the official story that none of the flight and cockpit data recorders were ever recovered in the wreckage of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers. Honorary firefighter Mike Bellone claims he was approached by unknown bureau agents a short time after he and his partner, Nicholas DeMasi, a retired New York firefighter, found three of the four “black boxes” among the WTC rubble before January 2002. The pair first claimed in an August 2003 book entitled Behind the Scene: Ground Zero to have found the data recorders. http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2572

Make of it as you will.

As for Flight77(Pentagon)you can watch the FDR as provided by the NTSB, see how the flight-path on the FDR is different to the official story and more importantly, have a look at the actual/true attitude seconds before impact, over 200ft. Pandora's Black Box - Chapter 2: Flight of American 77 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4648624627192508186&hl=en)

<ul>Also, why has the FBI refused to release the aircraft component serial number data, this would prove which aircraft were involved , if there is nothing to hide, there is nothing to fear. FAA Withholds Pre-9/11 ID Confirming Aircraft Serial Number Data Of 9/11 Planes | 911Blogger.com (http://www.911blogger.com/node/13149)
<ul>On a lighter not see Click-Me (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tVgXTrA3Ovs)
There is also many Iraq war vets now openingly protesting against the war, over 10,000 troops are AWOL, see these two videos.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2WvIaDeNIbk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BOj7Nxcn6gg

So NIST are going to say that WTC7 was brought down by extraordinary fires, WT3, WT4, WT5, WT6 which were closer to WTC1&2 sustained much more damage but they never collapsed in what looked like a professional demolition job. I`m sure those that watch FOX/Sky/BBC news will buy this nonsense


:hilarious
"A seeker of truth" - however will it be recognised if found? :wink:

[RyeSloan]

Again the amount of evidence in that video shows that it was clearly not a terrorist attack.

Ha you see...you present a clearly edited video as 'evidence'...there is no evidence in that video what so ever.

I can't get my head round why people think a plane travelling at say 500mph would somehow puncture a huge hole into one the outer ring of a recently double bomb blast re-inforced wall. Have you ever seen air crash investigation on National Geo? It is VERY VERY common for most of a plane to dissapear in a violent crash so the fact there was little wreckage left at either this crash site and the one near the lake should be no surprise to anyone. The fact also remains that there is picture evidence of airline wreckage at both sites but hey ho guess what they never make it into your 'evidence' based videos.

I also like the random eyewitness quotes....or should I say earwitness quotes...sounded like a missile...oh really so america happens to be full of people who can differentiate between the SOUND of a cruise missile and a speeding airliner. Wonder how many people have ever even heard a missile no matter compared it to the sound of a speeding jet!!

As for the rest of your thories....tmost don't wash with some serious analysis and to query why the jet fuel might explode on impact with a skyscraper cause they are 'protected by metal and everything' :bitchy::bitchy:

And finally the blacks box's of the planes that hit the WTC....have you seen the debris form the the collapsed towers? Some of the floors have fused together into sheets that are literally only inches thick, for anything to survive that would be unbelievable. It's not the fact the the 'box's should have been found' it's the fact that they almost certainly didn't exist to be found.

[MrRobot]

Ha you see...you present a clearly edited video as 'evidence'...there is no evidence in that video what so ever.

I can't get my head round why people think a plane travelling at say 500mph would somehow puncture a huge hole into one the outer ring of a recently double bomb blast re-inforced wall. Have you ever seen air crash investigation on National Geo? It is VERY VERY common for most of a plane to dissapear in a violent crash so the fact there was little wreckage left at either this crash site and the one near the lake should be no surprise to anyone. The fact also remains that there is picture evidence of airline wreckage at both sites but hey ho guess what they never make it into your 'evidence' based videos.

I also like the random eyewitness quotes....or should I say earwitness quotes...sounded like a missile...oh really so america happens to be full of people who can differentiate between the SOUND of a cruise missile and a speeding airliner. Wonder how many people have ever even heard a missile no matter compared it to the sound of a speeding jet!!

As for the rest of your thories....tmost don't wash with some serious analysis and to query why the jet fuel might explode on impact with a skyscraper cause they are 'protected by metal and everything' :bitchy::bitchy:

And finally the blacks box's of the planes that hit the WTC....have you seen the debris form the the collapsed towers? Some of the floors have fused together into sheets that are literally only inches thick, for anything to survive that would be unbelievable. It's not the fact the the 'box's should have been found' it's the fact that they almost certainly didn't exist to be found.


Haha that fuel tank quote by me was pretty shoddy :greengrin

Black boxes are made to be indestructable. How do you explain the size of the hole at the pentagon ? Yeah, fair enough, the fuel tanks could easily explode, Ii'll give you that one. Twin towers don't look as suspicious I must say, but the Pentagon is way to fishy. The size of the hole elft by a plane with a wing span of around 125m left a hole about 50m ? Flynig at that speed about 2 metres of above ground level.


Many people(such as the people who 'found the black boxes') could be lying and making this look worse, but I still think there is something very dodgy about it. Maybe not the American governemtn setting up the attack, but possibly knowing it was coming etc. Just never know really. It would take a confession by Osama bin Laden in person before I could push out any possiblity of a conspiracy thing. Sounds crazy, and why would America destroy so many lifes just to invade Afghanistan for oils etc, but the world is sick.

[degenerated]

Neither "brain-washed", ' right-wing' , nor a supporter o' George W Bush, and would would be fairly confident that ma political awareness regarding the nefarious acts which American Imperialism is culpable and capable probably far exceeds yer ain.

Made nae such claims that yer "a nutter". However, repeating the lunatic claims o' 911 Conspiracy "Truthers" makes me seriously doubt yer judgement.

Abandoning objective, peer-reviewed, scientific results and opinion because it 'inconveniently' contradicts dogmatic and irrational conspiracy scenarios set bi a plooky teenager in his 'Loose Change' YouTube video really is a slippery slope.

What's next? We believe in Creationism therefore Evolution - despite the overwelming scientific evidence must be wrong ....Oh wait that's George's gig ! :wink:

'Belief' isnae fact, and that's where the conspiracy nutters fail - they confuse personal fantasy wi objective reality.

Ah'll stick tae the Science , thanks. :thumbsup:

as an interesting aside, the people who you say weren't involved in any skullduggery regarding 911 are the ones who want creationism taught in schools.

and as i haven't bothered to watch loose change then i couldn't possibly comment on the credibility of the plooky tennagers work.

bear in mind also, that people like Eugen Fischer were also scientists - doesn't make their work correct - i hope you will agree



hey man of science with your perfect rules of measure
can you improve this place with the data that you gather

[fordie2]

Ha you see...you present a clearly edited video as 'evidence'...there is no evidence in that video what so ever.

I can't get my head round why people think a plane travelling at say 500mph would somehow puncture a huge hole into one the outer ring of a recently double bomb blast re-inforced wall. Have you ever seen air crash investigation on National Geo? It is VERY VERY common for most of a plane to dissapear in a violent crash so the fact there was little wreckage left at either this crash site and the one near the lake should be no surprise to anyone. The fact also remains that there is picture evidence of airline wreckage at both sites but hey ho guess what they never make it into your 'evidence' based videos.

I also like the random eyewitness quotes....or should I say earwitness quotes...sounded like a missile...oh really so america happens to be full of people who can differentiate between the SOUND of a cruise missile and a speeding airliner. Wonder how many people have ever even heard a missile no matter compared it to the sound of a speeding jet!!

As for the rest of your thories....tmost don't wash with some serious analysis and to query why the jet fuel might explode on impact with a skyscraper cause they are 'protected by metal and everything' :bitchy::bitchy:

And finally the blacks box's of the planes that hit the WTC....have you seen the debris form the the collapsed towers? Some of the floors have fused together into sheets that are literally only inches thick, for anything to survive that would be unbelievable. It's not the fact the the 'box's should have been found' it's the fact that they almost certainly didn't exist to be found.

But a paper passport car survive the temperatures to fuse metal together.

The pictures of plane wreckage were shown on one of the videos at the Pentagon, it was a single plane engine about a quarter of the size of a Boeing engine. Also these engines are made of Titanium that would not just disintegrate!

[Betty Boop]

Ha you see...you present a clearly edited video as 'evidence'...there is no evidence in that video what so ever.

I can't get my head round why people think a plane travelling at say 500mph would somehow puncture a huge hole into one the outer ring of a recently double bomb blast re-inforced wall. Have you ever seen air crash investigation on National Geo? It is VERY VERY common for most of a plane to dissapear in a violent crash so the fact there was little wreckage left at either this crash site and the one near the lake should be no surprise to anyone. The fact also remains that there is picture evidence of airline wreckage at both sites but hey ho guess what they never make it into your 'evidence' based videos.

I also like the random eyewitness quotes....or should I say earwitness quotes...sounded like a missile...oh really so america happens to be full of people who can differentiate between the SOUND of a cruise missile and a speeding airliner. Wonder how many people have ever even heard a missile no matter compared it to the sound of a speeding jet!!

As for the rest of your thories....tmost don't wash with some serious analysis and to query why the jet fuel might explode on impact with a skyscraper cause they are 'protected by metal and everything' :bitchy::bitchy:

And finally the blacks box's of the planes that hit the WTC....have you seen the debris form the the collapsed towers? Some of the floors have fused together into sheets that are literally only inches thick, for anything to survive that would be unbelievable. It's not the fact the the 'box's should have been found' it's the fact that they almost certainly didn't exist to be found.:agree: So how does that square with some of the alleged hijacker's passports, emerging intact from the debris? :dunno:

[GreenandGlaikit]

Haha that fuel tank quote by me was pretty shoddy :greengrin

Black boxes are made to be indestructable. How do you explain the size of the hole at the pentagon ? Yeah, fair enough, the fuel tanks could easily explode, Ii'll give you that one. Twin towers don't look as suspicious I must say, but the Pentagon is way to fishy. The size of the hole elft by a plane with a wing span of around 125m left a hole about 50m ? Flynig at that speed about 2 metres of above ground level.


Many people(such as the people who 'found the black boxes') could be lying and making this look worse, but I still think there is something very dodgy about it. Maybe not the American governemtn setting up the attack, but possibly knowing it was coming etc. Just never know really. It would take a confession by Osama bin Laden in person before I could push out any possiblity of a conspiracy thing. Sounds crazy, and why would America destroy so many lifes just to invade Afghanistan for oils etc, but the world is sick.

"Indestructable" - they should replace tank armour wi "Black Boxes" then. :hilarious


Googled tae see their specifications - suprisingly light . http://www.howstuffworks.com/black-box.htm


In the first picture a recovered BB looks a wee bit battered.

[degenerated]

:agree: So how does that square with some of the alleged hijacker's passports, emerging intact from the debris? :dunno:

or even some of the people named as hijackers emerging totally intact as far away as places such as morrocco

[Betty Boop]

or even some of the people named as hijackers emerging totally intact as far away as places such as morroccoAye amazing! :greengrin

[GreenandGlaikit]

:agree: So how does that square with some of the alleged hijacker's passports, emerging intact from the debris? :dunno:

How is it inconsistent is a better question. The variables in collisions which also include explosions, fire and building collapse must be truely enormous - the question being asked therefore is unanswerable.

[paullotion]

I can't get my head round why people think a plane travelling at say 500mph would somehow puncture a huge hole into one the outer ring of a recently double bomb blast re-inforced wall. Have you ever seen air crash investigation on National Geo? It is VERY VERY common for most of a plane to dissapear in a violent crash so the fact there was little wreckage left at either this crash site and the one near the lake should be no surprise to anyone. The fact also remains that there is picture evidence of airline wreckage at both sites but hey ho guess what they never make it into your 'evidence' based videos. I believe the RAF estimated that the planes that flew into the WTC were traveling at about 587mph, twice the amount Boeing recommends, if anyone has seen Aircraft Investigation's on National Geographical, you`ll know aircraft do not like flying beyond their safe limits. The fact that Atta was pulling a 270 degree bank turn at full throttle is amazing for an amature pilot, Andrews Air Force base is less than a couple of minutes away when Atta performed this feat, how did he know it would be safe to spend another 10min performing this maneuver .

Also, the part of the Pentagon that was hit was mainly staffed by civilians brought in to try and find the $2.3 trillion dollars that went missing from the Pentagon, Donald Rumshfield announced this on 10,Sept, 2001, coincidence?




I also like the random eyewitness quotes....or should I say earwitness quotes...sounded like a missile...oh really so america happens to be full of people who can differentiate between the SOUND of a cruise missile and a speeding airliner. Wonder how many people have ever even heard a missile no matter compared it to the sound of a speeding jet!! The same could be said of those that stated they saw the passengers faces, yeah at over 500mph.


As for the rest of your thories....tmost don't wash with some serious analysis and to query why the jet fuel might explode on impact with a skyscraper cause they are 'protected by metal and everything' And finally the blacks box's of the planes that hit the WTC....have you seen the debris form the the collapsed towers? Some of the floors have fused together into sheets that are literally only inches thick, for anything to survive that would be unbelievable. It's not the fact the the 'box's should have been found' it's the fact that they almost certainly didn't exist to be found. The black boxes omit a signal when a plane crashes, including into mountains.

[RyeSloan]

Haha that fuel tank quote by me was pretty shoddy :greengrin

Black boxes are made to be indestructable. How do you explain the size of the hole at the pentagon ? Yeah, fair enough, the fuel tanks could easily explode, Ii'll give you that one. Twin towers don't look as suspicious I must say, but the Pentagon is way to fishy. The size of the hole elft by a plane with a wing span of around 125m left a hole about 50m ? Flynig at that speed about 2 metres of above ground level.


Many people(such as the people who 'found the black boxes') could be lying and making this look worse, but I still think there is something very dodgy about it. Maybe not the American governemtn setting up the attack, but possibly knowing it was coming etc. Just never know really. It would take a confession by Osama bin Laden in person before I could push out any possiblity of a conspiracy thing. Sounds crazy, and why would America destroy so many lifes just to invade Afghanistan for oils etc, but the world is sick.

Oh don't get me wrong, not saying every truth has been told it's just that most of the conspiracy theories are too far fetched and are based on large amounts of hersay and ignoring contradictory evidence and analysis than any solid analysis. I think people are quite open to the fact that the Americans are capable of plenty of intrigue so a properly presented 'conspiracy' would gain plenty of credence.

As for the amount of damage a plane wing can do to re-inforced concrete wall...not too much I would wager. Plane wings are designed to make a plane fly not stay perfectly attached and puncture holes into concrete walls. There is a perfectly plausible analysis showing that the most likely reason for the size of the hole is the fact that the wings actually fold backwards into the fusulage of the plane as it hits the wall. Seems an emminently sensible analysis to me and much much more likely than a cruise missile/mystery plane.

Just a random thought, IF it wasn't the claimed boeing that crashed into the pentagon, where did that plane and passengers go??:blah::greengrin

[degenerated]

Oh don't get me wrong, not saying every truth has been told it's just that most of the conspiracy theories are too far fetched and are based on large amounts of hersay and ignoring contradictory evidence and analysis than any solid analysis. I think people are quite open to the fact that the Americans are capable of plenty of intrigue so a properly presented 'conspiracy' would gain plenty of credence.

As for the amount of damage a plane wing can do to re-inforced concrete wall...not too much I would wager. Plane wings are designed to make a plane fly not stay perfectly attached and puncture holes into concrete walls. There is a perfectly plausible analysis showing that the most likely reason for the size of the hole is the fact that the wings actually fold backwards into the fusulage of the plane as it hits the wall. Seems an emminently sensible analysis to me and much much more likely than a cruise missile/mystery plane.

Just a random thought, IF it wasn't the claimed boeing that crashed into the pentagon, where did that plane and passengers go??:blah::greengrin

thats not the but that convinces me to believe that the bush, cheyney & co were complicit in this. the biggest question that remains unanswered and is key to this is why Norad were stood down?

[cabbageandribs1875]

foy anyone interested, theres a repeat of 9/11 the third tower tonight on BBC2 9PM .

[MrRobot]

"Indestructable" - they should replace tank armour wi "Black Boxes" then. :hilarious


Googled tae see their specifications - suprisingly light . http://www.howstuffworks.com/black-box.htm


In the first picture a recovered BB looks a wee bit battered.


Yeah, the point is they can take a battering, and the contents remain okay.

[MrRobot]

Oh don't get me wrong, not saying every truth has been told it's just that most of the conspiracy theories are too far fetched and are based on large amounts of hersay and ignoring contradictory evidence and analysis than any solid analysis. I think people are quite open to the fact that the Americans are capable of plenty of intrigue so a properly presented 'conspiracy' would gain plenty of credence.

As for the amount of damage a plane wing can do to re-inforced concrete wall...not too much I would wager. Plane wings are designed to make a plane fly not stay perfectly attached and puncture holes into concrete walls. There is a perfectly plausible analysis showing that the most likely reason for the size of the hole is the fact that the wings actually fold backwards into the fusulage of the plane as it hits the wall. Seems an emminently sensible analysis to me and much much more likely than a cruise missile/mystery plane.

Just a random thought, IF it wasn't the claimed boeing that crashed into the pentagon, where did that plane and passengers go??:blah::greengrin


:greengrin God knowes what happened. Hopefully some day we'll find out.

[Chez]

:greengrin God knowes what happened. Hopefully some day we'll find out.

There's a programme on BBC1 now about it :agree:

[GreenandGlaikit]

There's a programme on BBC1 now about it :agree:

Watched it. 'Course, since the BBC produced reasonable, rational and scientific analysis in countering the lunatics wild supositions and allegations they too will probably be branded co-conspirators.

Are there giant, shape-shifting Lizards lurking in the BBC's board-room?

We should be told! :wink:

Mibbee Wildlife presenter Kate Humble :drool: should interview them? :greengrin

[steakbake]

Another one that always gets me is the Flight 93 "mobile phone" calls from relatives, saying that the plane had been hijacked.

Until very recently, it wasn't possible to make mobile phone calls on airplanes as there was insufficient signal capability to carry a call.

Some airlines in the last year have only just introduced signal boosters so that people can make calls and send texts on a mobile during a flight. But this is a recent advance and certainly wasn't around in 2001.

http://www.qualcomm.com/press/releases/2004/040715_aa_testflight.html

This document from 2004 is from a company who had at that stage, only just developed technology to enable mobile calls from airplanes.

[Hibrandenburg]

Nobody knows exactly what happened that day.

All I know is that Al-Qaeda have openly said that short or long term one of their aims is to free the world of the Western Civilization and impose Islamic Law on the world.

Now all those who play up these conspiracy theories are assissting this goal IMHO and should really have a think about what they'd prefer.

Our way of life is far from perfect but I know who's side I'm on, do you?

[steakbake]

Nobody knows exactly what happened that day.

All I know is that Al-Qaeda have openly said that short or long term one of their aims is to free the world of the Western Civilization and impose Islamic Law on the world.

Now all those who play up these conspiracy theories are assissting this goal IMHO and should really have a think about what they'd prefer.

Our way of life is far from perfect but I know who's side I'm on, do you?

I think that is a bit of a stretch of logic - questioning the motives and actions of our governments etc is the very thing which maintains western civilization in the democracy and free speech that hallmarks the more positive aspects of our lifestyle.

So your choice seems to be to live unquestioningly by a religious dogma or unquestioningly by a political one.

Personally, I don't like either very much so I think the 3rd way is to realise that all religion is based purely on belief, not evidence.

Politics is based on belief and the evidence can be manipulated.

A third way is to encourage people to stop slavishly believing everything their governments, priests, imams, rabbis etc are telling them and to start thinking from a more rational level.

Doesn't say much for either of the polar opposites you have suggested and I'm afraid to say that the middle ground is beyond many people on earth's capabilities of thought.

Basically we're ****ed. :duck:

[--------]

Watched it. 'Course, since the BBC produced reasonable, rational and scientific analysis in countering the lunatics wild supositions and allegations they too will probably be branded co-conspirators.

Are there giant, shape-shifting Lizards lurking in the BBC's board-room?

We should be told! :wink:

Mibbee Wildlife presenter Kate Humble :drool: should interview them? :greengrin


I saw a program about that on Five US recently - "reptilians" who've been on earth for thousands of years and they're just hotching to take over the US government and make us all their reptile-slaves.

They could have infiltrated the Beeb, don't you think?

It was an episode of CSI, though, so maybe it isn't all true?

Conspiracy theories all LOOK good mostly because the theorists don't distinguish between "evidence" (hard provable fact) and "allegations" (what someone's Uncle Jimmy's golfing partner's car mechanic's best friend was told by an unidentified 'eye-witness' who can't be named in case MI5 or the Special Branch assassinate him).

It wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald who shot Kennedy - it was the CIA/FBI/Mafia/Cubans/Ku Klux Klan/Daughters of the Confederate South/The Man from Laramie/the Jesuits/some, any or all of the aforesaid, all from behind the grassy knoll.

Marilyn Monroe was murdered by Robert Kennedy, aided and abetted by Peter Lawford, Billy Wilder, Tony Curtis, and the widow of Clark Gable. Or by her husband, Arthur Miller. Or by her abusive ex-husband, Joe Di Maggio. Take your pick.

It wasn't "Titanic" that sank - it was her sister ship "Olympic", and it was an insurance scam. The "Californian" was supposed to rescue the passengers and crew, but Captain Lord was too thick to realise that the rockets he could see were her distress signals (even although it had all been arranged prior in Liverpool).

Aliens landed at Roswell.

Aliens landed in Bonnybridge.

Aliens live in Bonnybridge. (Now THAT I can believe!)

Aliens probe humans with big bars of Toblerone. (Ouch!)

The Bermuda triangle exists.

On detailed investigation, NONE of the above proves to be true (except possibly aliens living in Bonnybridge). But some folks will go on believing some or all of it, because they'd rather believe the "mystery" than accept that this world and its workings are way beyond the understanding of any of us.

:devil:

Oh, and I see no reason to disbelieve that WTC7 came down because of the effect of very high temperature fires on the steel framework of the building.

What it says on the tin, in fact.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think that is a bit of a stretch of logic - questioning the motives and actions of our governments etc is the very thing which maintains western civilization in the democracy and free speech that hallmarks the more positive aspects of our lifestyle.

So your choice seems to be to live unquestioningly by a religious dogma or unquestioningly by a political one.

Personally, I don't like either very much so I think the 3rd way is to realise that all religion is based purely on belief, not evidence.

Politics is based on belief and the evidence can be manipulated.

A third way is to encourage people to stop slavishly believing everything their governments, priests, imams, rabbis etc are telling them and to start thinking from a more rational level.

Doesn't say much for either of the polar opposites you have suggested and I'm afraid to say that the middle ground is beyond many people on earth's capabilities of thought.

Basically we're ****ed. :duck:


Yeah, your right. Let's invite them round for tea and we'll have a chat about each others problems and I'm sure we'll work it out :wink:

[steakbake]

Yeah, your right. Let's invite them round for tea and we'll have a chat about each others problems and I'm sure we'll work it out :wink:

Don't knock it.

Talks brokered ceasefires, weapons decommisioning and ultimately peace deals in N.Ireland, Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo, E.Timor amongst others. Chechenia as well. We're also seeing talks starting between the Northern Cyprus and Southern Cyprus aimed at ending the division.

I think inviting the leaders of Palestine and Israel round for a cup of tea and a chat, possibly coming to a firm decision on the future might help people. Surprisingly, it was Egypt who brokered the most recent ceasefire. Though by all accounts, there was no tea, no coffee. Only paper, bottled water and pens.

Seems like the military action route isn't exactly sorting out the situation in Afghanistan, Iraq etc.

"Making peace is, I have found, much harder than making war" - Gerry Adams

[Riz]

The 911 "Truthers" :rolleyes: make GW Bush look like Albert Einstein and Vlad The Indisputably Mad look perfectly sane.

It's bollocks, utter bollocks. The proponents need incarcerating in secure instututions where, hopefully, remedial therapy will be administered.:wink:

Worry not mate, there will be FEMA camp near you or the UK equivelant near you soon.

INSIDE JOB, anyone who cant see this hasent done their homework, anyone who hasent done their homework on this should even speak about it!

[Riz]

There's a programme on BBC1 now about it :agree:

The BBC documentory was biased, badly edited and basically propaganda that the Nazi Party would have been proud of! :agree:

[The Green Goblin]

I hadn't heard of it previously but read the BBC article here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7485331.stm), this morning.

:wink: Ah another conspiracy theory, this one sounds feasible though, especially when you hear who rented/used that particular tower, tower :7:

You can watch the vid of its collapse and it does look like a controlled demolition, to the untrained eye. :dizzy:


It`s all here, everything, your 3rd tower and a huge amount more. This is a must see video. Even if you think there are people who need a good conspiracy theory to get them going every day and go over the top, this is a shocking and gripping documentary that raises many questions, backed up by masses of evidence all shown clearly in the film:

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk7htWPF874

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAS4TIYF68A&feature=related

Unincluded Chapter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9mTv6CRvxk&feature=related

It`s a couple of hours, but it`s absolutely unbelievable and unmissable viewing. Whatever your views, this is at least worth watching.

GG

[Riz]

It`s all here, everything, your 3rd tower and a huge amount more. This is a must see video. Even if you think there are people who need a good conspiracy theory to get them going every day and go over the top, this is a shocking and gripping documentary that raises many questions, backed up by masses of evidence all shown clearly in the film:

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk7htWPF874

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAS4TIYF68A&feature=related

Unincluded Chapter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9mTv6CRvxk&feature=related

It`s a couple of hours, but it`s absolutely unbelievable and unmissable viewing. Whatever your views, this is at least worth watching.

GG

thanks for that mate Ive seen this and its very good. The guys that have put this together have been critisised alot, if they wore a suit then I dont they would have got have the abuse they get. Particulary when one of the guys father died at the twin towers as he was a fireman. Its also woth noting that the Firebrigades Union support the 9/11 truthers as to large sections of the NYPD... you got your own channel on there mate? Mines is /dropzonerecords

[The Green Goblin]

thanks for that mate ... you got your own channel on there mate? Mines is /dropzonerecords

Cheers, I`ll check it out. Mine is : muzz100 Just the 2 videos on there but I hope to add more soon. :-)

GG

[Riz]

Cheers, I`ll check it out. Mine is : muzz100 Just the 2 videos on there but I hope to add more soon. :-)

GG

cool Ive sent you an invite ... there is alot of stuff from my label and my music and my other artists music there, and there is also alot of stuff on 9/11, 7/7 Quantum Physics, Atoms and general interests etc.

[hibsdaft]

i understand some of these prominent 'truthers' are making a whack of money off the back of this stuff.

[Riz]

i understand some of these prominent 'truthers' are making a whack of money off the back of this stuff.


Thats why the majority of the DVD are given away for free and the films are put online for free downloads and most people that make money from them give it to the FDNY Ground Zero fund? I suggest you learn what your talking about before making such wild statements.

:blah:

[Sergio sledge]

The BBC documentory was biased, badly edited and basically propaganda that the Nazi Party would have been proud of! :agree:

And "Loose change" and other random youtube videos arent? :dunno:

There's some people on this thread who would be more at home posting here (http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=f616aa0a5360639ee815e03ecc1778 12&) than Hibs.net.......:greengrin

Course there is a global conspiracy involving the American Goverment, NASA, the FBI, the CIA, Fox News, CNN, BBC, SKY, the British Government, and an American Agent holed up in a cave somewhere disguised as Osama Bin Laden to blame this on Islamic extremists who of course would never even think of doing such a thing as killing innocents to further their aims of imposing an Islamic state on the world. Anyone who can't see this conspiracy is either an idiot, or a conformist sheep who never questions anything they are told by said news agencies.....:rolleyes:

[Riz]

And "Loose change" and other random youtube videos arent? :dunno:

There's some people on this thread who would be more at home posting here (http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=f616aa0a5360639ee815e03ecc1778 12&) than Hibs.net.......:greengrin

Course there is a global conspiracy involving the American Goverment, NASA, the FBI, the CIA, Fox News, CNN, BBC, SKY, the British Government, and an American Agent holed up in a cave somewhere disguised as Osama Bin Laden to blame this on Islamic extremists who of course would never even think of doing such a thing as killing innocents to further their aims of imposing an Islamic state on the world. Anyone who can't see this conspiracy is either an idiot, or a conformist sheep who never questions anything they are told by said news agencies.....:rolleyes:

At least you admit your an idiot then :thumbsup:

[Sergio sledge]

At least you admit your an idiot then :thumbsup:

I've known it for years, and grown to embrace it....:greengrin

[hibsdaft]

Thats why the majority of the DVD are given away for free and the films are put online for free downloads and most people that make money from them give it to the FDNY Ground Zero fund? I suggest you learn what your talking about before making such wild statements.

:blah:

come on, guys like Alex Jones have made a career out of this bull****.

he's sending you up a blind alley mate.

[Riz]

come on, guys like Alex Jones have made a career out of this bull****.

he's sending you up a blind alley mate.

Alex Jones isnt sending me anywhere, Im not really a fan of his at all. It would be gulible of you to assume that every "Truther" out there depends on Alex Jones as some sort of messiah. He speaks some truths, he exaggerates others, he is American after all and after a while he can really grate on my eardrums. He does raise some interesting points tho that are best investigated yourself rather than just taking his word for it.