Scottish Independence

[paul_hfc3]

Do u want Scotland to be independent?

I for one still ain't sure.

[lyonhibs]

Really depends whether one has looked at the economic realities of the thing. Basing one's entire exchequer on funds from a finite resource - this fabled North Sea oil - is risky indeed, especially as the pipelines are currently under Westminster control (like it or not) and the incumbent Westminster gov is entirely likely to tell the SNP to sling their hook when they ask for the rights/access to the pipelines back.

Additionally, we get given a serious wedge of money from Westminster via the Barnett Formula which was - in the founders own words - only meant to be a short term way of distributing income. It's barely changed in circa 30 years and gives us something like £3.5 billion a year to distribute as we see fit (in devolved policy areas) I stand to be corrected on the exact scale of the Barnett Formula grant, but I fail to see how, if it was cut away all of a sudden, the newly independent government would maintain the current benefits we enjoy North of the border that our English neighbours do not.

Furthermore, a independent Scotland would give fuel to this "Braveheart" notion that being a proud Scotsman, loving your country yet believing in the mutually beneficial economic Union between Scotland and England are somehow mutually exclusive, and if you believe in the Union you automatically become some sort of a Tory toff, psuedo English ponce, which is the biggest crock of **** ever.

In summary, the membership of the SNP leapt by something like 25% following the release of Braveheart, a factually inaccurate film, filmed in Ireland and starring a 5ft 11 Aussie as the 6ft 6 William Wallace.

Whilst, at present, Scottish Labour haven't got a pot to piss in (thanks Wendy, you grinning buffoon) and the SNP leadership is looking pretty rosy (mainly becasue they are mostly competent politicians, unlike the current load of buffoons - both sides of the border - making any Labour supporter long for Tony Blair and even (god forbid) Jack McConnell) I think if the SNP ever do have the stones to go ahead with their much vaunted "National conversation" regarding whether the Scottish people actually want Independence, I think they might find the results to be not entirely to their liking.

[Jack]

The question of independence is a tricky one as is the referendum for it.

As it stands the referendum will only ask if its OK for ‘us’ to negotiate independence from the UK.

No matter what the terms of these negotiations come out with the SNP have stated quite clearly they will not go back to the people to ask if these terms are acceptable.

To me that’s unacceptable so, for now, its no.

Maybe one day.




PS If we were sure to get an extra public holiday for Independence Day that might swing it for me :devil:

[GlesgaeHibby]

Really depends whether one has looked at the economic realities of the thing. Basing one's entire exchequer on funds from a finite resource - this fabled North Sea oil - is risky indeed, especially as the pipelines are currently under Westminster control (like it or not) and the incumbent Westminster gov is entirely likely to tell the SNP to sling their hook when they ask for the rights/access to the pipelines back.

Additionally, we get given a serious wedge of money from Westminster via the Barnett Formula which was - in the founders own words - only meant to be a short term way of distributing income. It's barely changed in circa 30 years and gives us something like £3.5 billion a year to distribute as we see fit (in devolved policy areas) I stand to be corrected on the exact scale of the Barnett Formula grant, but I fail to see how, if it was cut away all of a sudden, the newly independent government would maintain the current benefits we enjoy North of the border that our English neighbours do not.

Furthermore, a independent Scotland would give fuel to this "Braveheart" notion that being a proud Scotsman, loving your country yet believing in the mutually beneficial economic Union between Scotland and England are somehow mutually exclusive, and if you believe in the Union you automatically become some sort of a Tory toff, psuedo English ponce, which is the biggest crock of **** ever.

In summary, the membership of the SNP leapt by something like 25% following the release of Braveheart, a factually inaccurate film, filmed in Ireland and starring a 5ft 11 Aussie as the 6ft 6 William Wallace.

Whilst, at present, Scottish Labour haven't got a pot to piss in (thanks Wendy, you grinning buffoon) and the SNP leadership is looking pretty rosy (mainly becasue they are mostly competent politicians, unlike the current load of buffoons - both sides of the border - making any Labour supporter long for Tony Blair and even (god forbid) Jack McConnell) I think if the SNP ever do have the stones to go ahead with their much vaunted "National conversation" regarding whether the Scottish people actually want Independence, I think they might find the results to be not entirely to their liking.

We also provide more money into the exchequer per head than England and Wales.

We have separate Legal systems, Policing systems, Education systems- University and School, devolved power in many areas including the NHS, and we already have a parliament building in place, begging the question: Would it really be that big a step to split from Britain?

Yes the oil revenues will not last forever, but what they would do if we gained independence in the next few years it would give our economy a boost in the transitional years to help get us up and running.

I'm not for independence for so called braveheart reasons, but because I believe an independent Scottish Government could serve the needs of the Scottish people much better than a Westminster Government of which Scotland is only 8.33% of the UK population, and as such many of the decisions at Westminster will not be for a direct benefit of the Scottish people.

I'd love for us to have our own voice in Europe and work with the English and Welsh, and all our EU counterparts in a positive way.

[sKipper]

Definitely YES !

Oil has provided a windfall of nearly 550 million pounds in the last 6 weeks alone ! Imagine if that was spent on Scotland rather than the Iraq war or Olympics :brickwall

PS Lyon : The Scottish Parliament gets 30 billion pounds a year, not 3.5 b

[sKipper]

We also provide more money into the exchequer per head than England and Wales.


Correct. Only London and parts of the South East deliver more tax than Scotland and oil isn't even part of the equation.

Another myth to burst is ; Wales, NI, the NE of England and NW of England have more public spending per head than we do. :agree:

[hibsdaft]

probably.

either yes or abstain.

[Iain G]

Really depends whether one has looked at the economic realities of the thing. Basing one's entire exchequer on funds from a finite resource - this fabled North Sea oil - is risky indeed, especially as the pipelines are currently under Westminster control (like it or not) and the incumbent Westminster gov is entirely likely to tell the SNP to sling their hook when they ask for the rights/access to the pipelines back.

Additionally, we get given a serious wedge of money from Westminster via the Barnett Formula which was - in the founders own words - only meant to be a short term way of distributing income. It's barely changed in circa 30 years and gives us something like £3.5 billion a year to distribute as we see fit (in devolved policy areas) I stand to be corrected on the exact scale of the Barnett Formula grant, but I fail to see how, if it was cut away all of a sudden, the newly independent government would maintain the current benefits we enjoy North of the border that our English neighbours do not.

Furthermore, a independent Scotland would give fuel to this "Braveheart" notion that being a proud Scotsman, loving your country yet believing in the mutually beneficial economic Union between Scotland and England are somehow mutually exclusive, and if you believe in the Union you automatically become some sort of a Tory toff, psuedo English ponce, which is the biggest crock of **** ever.

In summary, the membership of the SNP leapt by something like 25% following the release of Braveheart, a factually inaccurate film, filmed in Ireland and starring a 5ft 11 Aussie as the 6ft 6 William Wallace.

Whilst, at present, Scottish Labour haven't got a pot to piss in (thanks Wendy, you grinning buffoon) and the SNP leadership is looking pretty rosy (mainly becasue they are mostly competent politicians, unlike the current load of buffoons - both sides of the border - making any Labour supporter long for Tony Blair and even (god forbid) Jack McConnell) I think if the SNP ever do have the stones to go ahead with their much vaunted "National conversation" regarding whether the Scottish people actually want Independence, I think they might find the results to be not entirely to their liking.

Good to see someone having some thought about some of the key issues and points that are always floated in these debates about why we should go it alone.

Personally I have no problem with being part of the UK, economically, socially, culturally I think that Britian becomes bigger and better than the sum of its many parts. I am a Scot who is happy to be Scottish aswell as being part of the UK, don't see why that is a mutually exclusive position.

Am not an accountant but not sure if the math stands up on all this oil revenue issue, what happens when it runs out, what do we replace that income with??? :confused:

And the current calibre of MSP makes me dread how bad things would get if we had full parliamentary powers!!! :devil:

[bingo70]

Good to see someone having some thought about some of the key issues and points that are always floated in these debates about why we should go it alone.

Personally I have no problem with being part of the UK, economically, socially, culturally I think that Britian becomes bigger and better than the sum of its many parts. I am a Scot who is happy to be Scottish aswell as being part of the UK, don't see why that is a mutually exclusive position.

Am not an accountant but not sure if the math stands up on all this oil revenue issue, what happens when it runs out, what do we replace that income with??? :confused:

And the current calibre of MSP makes me dread how bad things would get if we had full parliamentary powers!!! :devil:

what do other countries our size that don't have oil use for their income :confused:

[Hibby D]

what do other countries our size that don't have oil use for their income :confused:


:agree:

We have many income sources to fall back on that a lot of small, financially stable, independant countries don't have in abundance..... history, beautiful landscapes and a culture that is the envy of many nations across the globe.

I'm a yes :agree:

[Iain G]

what do other countries our size that don't have oil use for their income :confused:

Basing our major income on a finite source would be crazy for a small country like Scotland. Not convinced that we would be self suffiecient as a country without it. I am living in NZ just now and the cost of living versus the average wage is very very high at the moment, so I see how things are in a country of 4 million people who, like Scotland, base a large majority of their income on tourism, and its frightening how your wages don't go as far as you expect them too, with very high prices on food and petrol just now and mortgage rates at the 10% mark...

It would/may be possible for Scotland to deal as a country without this oil money the SNP are forever brining into the equation, but without that lump sum from the Barnett Formula each year, and when oil runs out, what would that do to us?!?!

For me it just doesn't financially or culturally stack up at the moment, maybe if Scotland can get its act together on being self suffiecient with renwable energy and attract more companies and trade to the country it could work, but IMHO it just isn't something we are ready for at the present time...

[Dashing Bob S]

By that logic Ireland should apply for membership of the UK, Norway should try to get back into a union with Sweden. Here in the USA, some people are arguing that an America which has outsourced all its production to India and China is not financially viable in the long-term! This is nonsense, of course. All countries have to re-invent themseves. The US had the dot com boom, then real estate, then services, and now it needs to find something else, and it will.

I think Scotland has tremendous advantages in the global economy as an English-speaking country. It should be able to utilise those at least at easily as Ireland which has a more backward infrastructure and a more antiqated social order with no seperation between church and state. Of course there would probably be some period of adjustment but membership of UK doesn't guarantee freedom from economic reccession and the global economy tends to be the biggest indicator of a countries success.

I can the *hit hitting the fan when Scots realise that they are far better off under the euro than the pound and Middle England keep resisting this.

[Mibbes Aye]

Nation-states and nationalism are SOOOO last century :devil: :greengrin

Regional government (either Edinburgh, Lothians and Borders or Central Belt) as part of a meaningful, devolved framework within the European Union.

It's progressive, it's the way forward :thumbsup:

[Iain G]

Nation-states and nationalism are SOOOO last century :devil: :greengrin

Regional government (either Edinburgh, Lothians and Borders or Central Belt) as part of a meaningful, devolved framework within the European Union.

It's progressive, it's the way forward :thumbsup:

Edinburgh Cooncil and progressive, no chance on that one happening!!! :greengrin:brickwall:grr:

[-Jonesy-]

Yes.

When the oil runs out we can descriminalise cannabis and steal all that dutch tourism. At least we have some good scenery for stoned people to look at.

[Onceinawhile]

its a yes for me, iv not thought about it to deeply to be honest but i just sometimes get suffocated by english arrogance (as can be seen from britains got talent not coming to the uk) that they are britain.

its also not very nice people asking you if scotlands really a country or a region. just because of that i want an independent scotland.

if there was some way to rid us of glasgow and dundee it would be perfect
*apologies to anyone from glasgow/dundee, i mean the junkie **** that lives in these areas not the cities

[danhibees1875]

Would i be right in saying that scotland generations something like 50% of the total wind energy in europe?

Im sure i read something like this somewhere, if not, then im sure we do have a good potential for wind and water power. :agree:

As for the the actual independance i said 'not sure', not that my opinions count yet.

[capitals_finest]

People are forgetting scotland has a plentiful supply of the future oil... H2O!

We have fantastic natural resources but we also have a massive amount of scroungers and lazy bassas which need to be looked after! It is a tough one but i think this chap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdChs1CSs2E) sums things up well. :wink:

[Calvin]

Great video :thumbsup:

[HibbyGuBrath]

There's enough oil to keep pumping for a few decades yet, and it's only going to go up in value... Recent rises would give is a £4bn surplus apparently.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3954031.ece

As for it running out, Norway has been putting a lot of it's oil revenue into a fund to ensure it's value continues after the oil runs out. It's worth more than £100bn now. We should be doing the same.

[Hibby D]

People are forgetting scotland has a plentiful supply of the future oil... H2O!

We have fantastic natural resources but we also have a massive amount of scroungers and lazy bassas which need to be looked after! It is a tough one but i think this chap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdChs1CSs2E) sums things up well. :wink:

Superb stuff :not worth:

However I much prefer to be reminded why I'm proud to be Scottish rather than relieved I'm no' English :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

its a yes for me, iv not thought about it to deeply to be honest but i just sometimes get suffocated by english arrogance (as can be seen from britains got talent not coming to the uk) that they are britain.

its also not very nice people asking you if scotlands really a country or a region. just because of that i want an independent scotland.

if there was some way to rid us of glasgow and dundee it would be perfect
*apologies to anyone from glasgow/dundee, i mean the junkie **** that lives in these areas not the citiesTo be fair Edinburgh has more than its fair share of junkies as well! :agree: