More nonsense from the ex-alcoholic McAskill

[Steve-O]

Ridiculous -

SHOPPERS face standing in separate supermarket queues to buy alcohol under the latest crackdown on Scotland's drinking culture.

The proposal is being considered by ministers as part of a long-term strategy on alcohol misuse, due to be published shortly.

Individual checkouts in stores for buying alcohol already exist in Ireland, and are designed to reduce the spontaneous purchase of drink – in the same way that cigarettes are sold separately.

Edinburgh's outgoing drugs and alcohol tsar, Tom Wood, has told city councillors that he expects to see ideas like this in a new national strategy, and government sources today confirmed that it was one option being considered.

In a wide-ranging speech, Mr Wood – a former Lothian and Borders deputy chief constable – also told councillors that the "drunken Scotsman" had become the country's "national brand".

"We used to be known for our engineering, but now we are known as a nation of party-goers," he said.

"Drug-taking and heavy alcohol use is normal in many parts of society in our city."

Mr Wood said the way to tackle Scotland's drinking culture was to get the price of drink right – not too high or low – as well as restricting the availability of alcohol.

"Alcohol should not be like bread and milk and sold at every corner shop," he said.

"We've got to consider the over-supply – sometimes there are shops selling alcohol on three of the four corners of an Edinburgh street."

Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill has already proposed a ban on cut-price promotions in off-licences, urged tough action on licensed premises which sell to underage drinkers and persuaded MSPs to back stricter controls on the display of alcohol in shops and supermarkets.

A Scottish Government spokeswoman said today: "This Government has already passed regulations to bring in separate display areas for alcohol when the Licensing Act comes fully into force in September 2009, to remind people that alcohol is not an everyday product like milk or bread.

"We are currently working on a longer term strategic approach to tackling our culture of alcohol misuse and will bring forward proposals for consultation this summer. At this stage nothing is ruled either in or out."

But Graham Bell, spokesman for the Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce, said more regulation in shops was not the best way forward, and said separate checkouts "won't work".

"Alcohol is the most destructive drug in Scotland, and the issue should be about educating people and promoting healthy lifestyles – not about further restrictions or putting us into separate queues," he said.

"The carrot is always better than the stick. People are more likely to engage with something which offers support."

The Government's long-term alcohol strategy will look at a range of issues such as availability, accessibility and age of purchase.

Ministers are unlikely to push for a general raising of the current 18 age limit because they believe drinking in the controlled surroundings of a pub or hotel is not such a problem.

But a higher age limit of 21 on buying alcohol from off-licences and supermarkets is seen as a way of helping to tackle the problem of binge-drinking and antisocial behaviour.

[GlesgaeHibby]

McAskill is an erse. I've been really impressed with the SNP's administration, except him.

All his proposals are crazy, by increasing price, and stopping promotions you are penalising those who drink responsibly as well as binge drinkers.

[hibsdaft]

they really should give up on this one.

even the old argument about European drinking culture being so different is collapsing as the blight of the binge spreads out across the continent these days.

some can't handle their drink and it causes some untold misery but these measures won't stop that.

imo the best thing they could do would be to improve provision and quality of food in big drinking areas so that people have something to absorb their booze. thats the only measure ive heard of that i can see doing anything other than being a pain in the arse to the majority who don't become violent and abusive ********s when drunk.

[Iain G]

Come on Steve-O, its 25 to buy booze here from a shop and you can't buy spirits from a supermarket and its obviously having a positive effect on the NZ drinking issue... :devil::wink:

[Steve-O]

Come on Steve-O, its 25 to buy booze here from a shop and you can't buy spirits from a supermarket and its obviously having a positive effect on the NZ drinking issue... :devil::wink:

Aye, clearly! :greengrin

Same in Australia where you have to buy bevvy separately...certainly stopped binge drinking there too :rolleyes:

[Iain G]

Aye, clearly! :greengrin

Same in Australia where you have to buy bevvy separately...certainly stopped binge drinking there too :rolleyes:

I love the fact you get almost drive thru bottle shops here and in Oz :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

Can't actually see what the fuss is here. That's the way it used to be - you always had a seperate booze counter at the supermarket.

There is no doubt Scotland has a massive problem with the drink - you just have to look at the increase in people being admitted to psychiatric hospitals with alcoholic dementia, in their 40s. For me something that makes people think twice about whether they need a drink is no problem at all.

It's too easy to slip a couple of bottles of plonk in with the weekly shop, once it's home, you're going to drink it or not.

Don't get me wrong, I am pro-choice, but alcohol is a vicious drug, and people should be aware of the choices they are making.

I think it's a real cheap shot to have a go at a bloke who has battled his booze problem by the way. Would you prefer he was still drinking, would that make it all right?

[steakbake]

Personally, I think his booze problem actually puts him in a slightly better position to comment than your average beer hound.

Im all for having a separate counter. While they are about it, they should bring in selling boosh and tar and tax it up to the bloodshot eyeballs.

[Pete]

Personally, I think his booze problem actually puts him in a slightly better position to comment than your average beer hound.

Im all for having a separate counter. While they are about it, they should bring in selling boosh and tar and tax it up to the bloodshot eyeballs.


Definately:agree:

People can scoff at these "radical" ideas because it's obvious that something needs to be done. I just hope that it's not too deeply ingrained in our culture and that something can be done about it. Britain and it's booze culture has made us a global laughing stock.

I bet you we have more words for being drunk than what the eskimos have for snow.

[Steve-O]

Personally I am sick of McAskill trying to dictate to the Scottish public simply because he could not handle his drink back in the day. I accept that statement may be slightly over-simplifying things! Yes, alcoholism is a disease, but I don't believe these measures will go any way to stopping someone who is determined to go down that route.

I also don't think we are a "global laughing stock" over alcohol either? On what basis is this? From my experience of travelling, the Irish still seem to be considered the big drinkers of the world, whether that's true or not.

The fact is that alcohol is not that cheap already, over 3 quid a pint in Edinburgh and yet he wants to ban happy hour promotions and this type of thing?? It's the only time people can get a reasonably priced drink in a pub!

[majorhibs]

Personally I am sick of McAskill trying to dictate to the Scottish public simply because he could not handle his drink back in the day. I accept that statement may be slightly over-simplifying things! Yes, alcoholism is a disease, but I don't believe these measures will go any way to stopping someone who is determined to go down that route.

I also don't think we are a "global laughing stock" over alcohol either? On what basis is this? From my experience of travelling, the Irish still seem to be considered the big drinkers of the world, whether that's true or not.

The fact is that alcohol is not that cheap already, over 3 quid a pint in Edinburgh and yet he wants to ban happy hour promotions and this type of thing?? It's the only time people can get a reasonably priced drink in a pub!

About time we had a reasoned reply to this other than the "ban it, its a disgrace etc" line o thinkin, I'm another one who's growin mightily sick o Mcaskill & his "I'm the new boss & what I dont like I'm goin to ban" approach, wether his past "experiences" make him better qualified than anyone else is another line I dont somehow get either, someone wi convictions but now reformed is better able to say if the cause o what they couldnae quite control is bad for people who could keep their act thegether better than him.. well I dunno about that one. Steve-o for Mcaskill's job, keepin things as they are & punting hairbrained busybody's like Mcaskill, that'd be a start.

[Hibby D]

Can't actually see what the fuss is here. That's the way it used to be - you always had a seperate booze counter at the supermarket.

There is no doubt Scotland has a massive problem with the drink - you just have to look at the increase in people being admitted to psychiatric hospitals with alcoholic dementia, in their 40s. For me something that makes people think twice about whether they need a drink is no problem at all.

It's too easy to slip a couple of bottles of plonk in with the weekly shop, once it's home, you're going to drink it or not.

Don't get me wrong, I am pro-choice, but alcohol is a vicious drug, and people should be aware of the choices they are making.

I think it's a real cheap shot to have a go at a bloke who has battled his booze problem by the way. Would you prefer he was still drinking, would that make it all right?

:agree: Once an alcoholic always and alcoholic - every day is a battle. Seeing a bottle of voddy alongside your bread and frozen chips isn't necessarily a good thing for anybody never mind an alcoholic. I have to go to a seperate counter to buy ciggies - I don't mind doing it for booze. No big deal.

And yes Steve-O alcohol is synonymous with Scotland - give me one other reason why we can't enjoy a glass of beer at a footie ground? :bitchy:

[Zimmy]

:agree: Once an alcoholic always and alcoholic - every day is a battle. Seeing a bottle of voddy alongside your bread and frozen chips isn't necessarily a good thing for anybody never mind an alcoholic. I have to go to a seperate counter to buy ciggies - I don't mind doing it for booze. No big deal.

And yes Steve-O alcohol is synonymous with Scotland - give me one other reason why we can't enjoy a glass of beer at a footie ground? :bitchy:

Well said Mrs :agree:

[Steve-O]

:agree: Once an alcoholic always and alcoholic - every day is a battle. Seeing a bottle of voddy alongside your bread and frozen chips isn't necessarily a good thing for anybody never mind an alcoholic. I have to go to a seperate counter to buy ciggies - I don't mind doing it for booze. No big deal.

And yes Steve-O alcohol is synonymous with Scotland - give me one other reason why we can't enjoy a glass of beer at a footie ground? :bitchy:

Scotland is the only country alcohol is synonymous with? What about Ireland? England? Australia? New Zealand? I'm sure there are a few others.

I don't understand your point regarding the football either? The reason alcohol was banned in Scottish sports stadiums was, as I said in the thread on the main board, because people were allowed to take ANY bevvy they wanted into stadiums. Therefore, people were tanning vodka and whisky and clearly going off their head on it. Football in 1980 and football now are two very different things, and alcohol being introduced into the current climate would have no ill effects IMO as long as it was sold sensibly, which of course it would be - i.e. no spirits, limits on how many drinks bought at once etc.

Buying cigarrettes at a separate counter has always been that way though as far as I am aware? It is the restriction on something that has existed a long time that gets to me, and IMO there is no need for it. Also, I would have thought cigarettes were easier to steal if they were just in the normal aisles?

Additionally I really have no idea what difference it makes where alcohol is in a shop? This argument that having it on sale in a supermarket somehow makes it an 'everyday item' like bread and milk is a nonsense to me. I like a drink, but I don't buy alcohol every time I am in a shop just because I happen to see it! I am fairly certain that the VAST majority of people are the same so why should we all be nannied in this way?

The whole thing is unnecessary and McAskill needs to think of some decent policies to solve this problem rather than punishing the average shopper.

[Hibby D]

Scotland is the only country alcohol is synonymous with? What about Ireland? England? Australia? New Zealand? I'm sure there are a few others.

I didn't say Scotland was the ONLY country - but like it or not we have a reputation for being a nation of bevvy merchants - yes that reputations is exaggerated - but it's warranted all the same

I don't understand your point regarding the football either? The reason alcohol was banned in Scottish sports stadiums was, as I said in the thread on the main board, because people were allowed to take ANY bevvy they wanted into stadiums. Therefore, people were tanning vodka and whisky and clearly going off their head on it. Football in 1980 and football now are two very different things, and alcohol being introduced into the current climate would have no ill effects IMO as long as it was sold sensibly, which of course it would be - i.e. no spirits, limits on how many drinks bought at once etc.

The reason why alcohol was banned is no longer relevant. It's the reasons why it will never be introduced back into Scottish football that matters. How it is sold is irrelevant too; it's how it's drunk and in what quatities that will cause havoc. As PD indicated, it's ingrained in our culture now and without radical changes to it's marketing and method of selling things will only continue in that vain.

Buying cigarrettes at a separate counter has always been that way though as far as I am aware? It is the restriction on something that has existed a long time that gets to me, and IMO there is no need for it. Also, I would have thought cigarettes were easier to steal if they were just in the normal aisles?

10 years ago we watched adverts for fags and bevvy on our tellies in abundance. We saw our F1 cars branded in B&H & Marlboro colours and our snooker players smoking and drinking a la Hurrican Higgins. We implemented change and now I'd argue there are surely very few of us who would like to go back to them good old days. Change is good if it's for the benefit of all - sometimes we just need to give things time before we see that benefit :agree:

Additionally I really have no idea what difference it makes where alcohol is in a shop? This argument that having it on sale in a supermarket somehow makes it an 'everyday item' like bread and milk is a nonsense to me. I like a drink, but I don't buy alcohol every time I am in a shop just because I happen to see it! I am fairly certain that the VAST majority of people are the same so why should we all be nannied in this way?

Then why are you making such a big deal of it then? :greengrin

The whole thing is unnecessary and McAskill needs to think of some decent policies to solve this problem rather than punishing the average shopper.

Why is it a punsihment? You've said yourself you're a seasoned traveller, so you know what it's like to have to go to the beer store to buy your booze. Does it stop you? Does it Hell :greengrin So you have to make a seperate trip to the beer shop! Big deal! At least your beer isn't being rammed down the throats of children from an early age as they walk around the supermarket with their parents, or tempting someone to buy "just one bottle" for the sake of it, rather than because you need it; which is what supermarkets are designed to do :agree:

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[Steve-O]

.

I don't believe that alcohol will NEVER be reintroduced to the Scottish game. If the English can do it, then why can't we? Despite Wednesday's events, surely they have a worse reputation than us for football violence and yet they can get a beer at the game?

How it's sold would make a difference. I fail to see how someone could have so many beers during one match that they would be completely hammered, or any more hammered than the thousands that enter the ground already drunk from pre match drinking?

It could be argued that beer in the stadium could stop people drinking quickly at about the 2.30pm point as they want to get as much bevvy down them as possible before going to the game.

I have been to a few sporting events where beer is on sale and in the end I have never ever been drunk at any of these events as going to the bar constantly is a hassle, and you miss what's going on. I really don't think having a beer only bar, for example, would lead to any great problems at games.

[majorhibs]

When your done banning alcohol, whats next to go? Do you have some sort of other plans for peoples recreation time, thats people who like to unwind after a days work socialising with like minded people, maybe catching a bit football in the evenings, whatever else is on etc. Tell you what, all you knee-jerk jumping on bandwagons merchants, I'm glad you dont drink in my local. Rather have a night in watching the paint dry. While your sortin out our recreation time, maybe you could do a spot o researchin into law & order as well, cos if you ban alcohol, the numpties who you all seem to reckon only do things because their on alcohol, will have moved onto somethin else for their kicks, likely drugs, and if these halfwits were to start breakin laws with REALLY mind bending substances in them I reckon we'd see an even bigger mess.

[Hibby D]

When your done banning alcohol, whats next to go? Do you have some sort of other plans for peoples recreation time, thats people who like to unwind after a days work socialising with like minded people, maybe catching a bit football in the evenings, whatever else is on etc. Tell you what, all you knee-jerk jumping on bandwagons merchants, I'm glad you dont drink in my local. Rather have a night in watching the paint dry. While your sortin out our recreation time, maybe you could do a spot o researchin into law & order as well, cos if you ban alcohol, the numpties who you all seem to reckon only do things because their on alcohol, will have moved onto somethin else for their kicks, likely drugs, and if these halfwits were to start breakin laws with REALLY mind bending substances in them I reckon we'd see an even bigger mess.

Who's wanting to ban alcohol? :confused: Who is your post directed at? :confused:

Read the thread properly or go bump your gums somewhere else :dizzy:

[marinello59]

I prefer to view this as a seperate queue for those wishing to purchase bread, milk, vegetables, meat and other such non-essential items. My shopping time should be considerably reduced in future.:thumbsup:

[--------]

I prefer to view this as a seperate queue for those wishing to purchase bread, milk, vegetables, meat and other such non-essential items. My shopping time should be considerably reduced in future.:thumbsup:


Yup. Agree100%. Nothing worse than being held up while ones unfriendly local soak stocks up on his booze ciggies and lottery tickets in the corner Spar shop.

Two things that could be done. One, increase tax on booze to push the price up. The real price of booze (monetary, that is - not the price in health, happiness, social cohesion, battered wives and children, etc) has been falling steadily since the 1970's. Tinme that was reversed. Two, cut the number of off-licences - there are far too many outlets in Scotland. It would also help to ban happy hours and enforce the laws against supplying to under-age drinkers. Any licensee convicted of knowingly supplying should be closed down permanently.

[--------]

I prefer to view this as a seperate queue for those wishing to purchase bread, milk, vegetables, meat and other such non-essential items. My shopping time should be considerably reduced in future.:thumbsup:


Yup. Agree100%. Nothing worse than being held up while ones unfriendly local soak stocks up on his booze ciggies and lottery tickets in the corner Spar shop.

Two things that could be done. One, increase tax on booze to push the price up. The real price of booze (monetary, that is - not the price in health, happiness, social cohesion, battered wives and children, etc) has been falling steadily since the 1970's. Tinme that was reversed. Two, cut the number of off-licences - there are far too many outlets in Scotland. It would also help to ban happy hours and enforce the laws against supplying to under-age drinkers. Any licensee convicted of knowingly supplying should be closed down permanently. Ban advertising, too.

[majorhibs]

Yup. Agree100%. Nothing worse than being held up while ones unfriendly local soak stocks up on his booze ciggies and lottery tickets in the corner Spar shop.

Two things that could be done. One, increase tax on booze to push the price up. The real price of booze (monetary, that is - not the price in health, happiness, social cohesion, battered wives and children, etc) has been falling steadily since the 1970's. Tinme that was reversed. Two, cut the number of off-licences - there are far too many outlets in Scotland. It would also help to ban happy hours and enforce the laws against supplying to under-age drinkers. Any licensee convicted of knowingly supplying should be closed down permanently. Ban advertising, too.

Another one, why dont you vote to ban happiness as well as happy hours, increase taxes on everything, then the rest of the world can stay in & moan moan moan along with you, everybody's glass would then be full empty instead of currently half empty & at least we'd all be in the same, drab boat, eh? :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Can't actually see what the fuss is here. That's the way it used to be - you always had a seperate booze counter at the supermarket.

There is no doubt Scotland has a massive problem with the drink - you just have to look at the increase in people being admitted to psychiatric hospitals with alcoholic dementia, in their 40s. For me something that makes people think twice about whether they need a drink is no problem at all.

It's too easy to slip a couple of bottles of plonk in with the weekly shop, once it's home, you're going to drink it or not.

Don't get me wrong, I am pro-choice, but alcohol is a vicious drug, and people should be aware of the choices they are making.

I think it's a real cheap shot to have a go at a bloke who has battled his booze problem by the way. Would you prefer he was still drinking, would that make it all right?

Excellent post.

[Hibbyradge]

Another one, why dont you vote to ban happiness as well as happy hours, increase taxes on everything, then the rest of the world can stay in & moan moan moan along with you, everybody's glass would then be full empty instead of currently half empty & at least we'd all be in the same, drab boat, eh? :wink:

Would you legalise Heroin and/or crack cocaine?

[majorhibs]

Would you legalise Heroin and/or crack cocaine?

Behave yerself. Been a while since you lived up to the name, used to think o you as a bit of a jovial, wild character, now yer just.. well.. plain radge.

[CropleyWasGod]

Would you legalise Heroin and/or crack cocaine?

Actually, I would... but that's a real thread-hijacker, so we can save it for a slow day. :thumbsup:

[--------]

Another one, why dont you vote to ban happiness as well as happy hours, increase taxes on everything, then the rest of the world can stay in & moan moan moan along with you, everybody's glass would then be full empty instead of currently half empty & at least we'd all be in the same, drab boat, eh? :wink:


You know, you MIGHT have a point here, except that happiness isn't the state of mind I see in most sorry drunks I encounter in my wanderings.

What I see is anger, insecurity, illness, a lot of desperation, and a lot of loneliness - people trying (and failing) to fill a huge space in their lives with whatever comes to hand - usually alcohol or some other drug. You won't find happiness in the bottom of a bottle - even a 40-ouncer.

Open your eyes, mate. What we have in Scotland today isn't a relaxed enjoyment of a few drinks in the company of friends. What we have is rampant and widespread alcohol misuse and abuse. Many town centres are no-go areas for sober people on weekend evenings. A&E departments at weekends are like war-zones, and the drunks are getting younger by the year. The incidence of alcohol-related mental illness is rising too.

I bury too many people well before their time because of alcohol abuse. I see children abused and neglected because the people responsible for them are too busy being HAPPY during HAPPY HOUR to bother their drunken backsides about them. Alcohol is a direct contributory cause of domestic abuse, street violence, child poverty, underage pregnancy, house fires, road deaths, illnesses like kidney failure, cirrhosis, pancreatitis.... That's just the start. And all the while the licencing authorities are issuing more and more and more licences to sell the stuff. And anyone who objects can be abused as a killjoy. Really clever.

But hey - don't worry, be happy. Stick your head in the sand or anywhere else that takes your fancy and you won't need to know or care aboiut anyothing else but your own HAPPINESS.

[fife hfc]

Yup. Agree100%. Nothing worse than being held up while ones unfriendly local soak stocks up on his booze ciggies and lottery tickets in the corner Spar shop.

Two things that could be done. One, increase tax on booze to push the price up. The real price of booze (monetary, that is - not the price in health, happiness, social cohesion, battered wives and children, etc) has been falling steadily since the 1970's. Tinme that was reversed. Two, cut the number of off-licences - there are far too many outlets in Scotland. It would also help to ban happy hours and enforce the laws against supplying to under-age drinkers. Any licensee convicted of knowingly supplying should be closed down permanently.

Do we not get taxed enough on eveything else? Why give them any more reason to increase the already heavy burden on the normal person. Mcaskill is an arse and you can't try to brow beat people into giving up drink ( Cigarettes show it fails). I am not a big drinker but I hate self righteous tits like him (who got lifted at Wembley) telling me what I can and can't do.

[fife hfc]

You know, you MIGHT have a point here, except that happiness isn't the state of mind I see in most sorry drunks I encounter in my wanderings.

What I see is anger, insecurity, illness, a lot of desperation, and a lot of loneliness - people trying (and failing) to fill a huge space in their lives with whatever comes to hand - usually alcohol or some other drug. You won't find happiness in the bottom of a bottle - even a 40-ouncer.
Open your eyes, mate. What we have in Scotland today isn't a relaxed enjoyment of a few drinks in the company of friends. What we have is rampant and widespread alcohol misuse and abuse. Many town centres are no-go areas for sober people on weekend evenings. A&E departments at weekends are like war-zones, and the drunks are getting younger by the year. The incidence of alcohol-related mental illness is rising too.

I bury too many people well before their time because of alcohol abuse. I see children abused and neglected because the people responsible for them are too busy being HAPPY during HAPPY HOUR to bother their drunken backsides about them. Alcohol is a direct contributory cause of domestic abuse, street violence, child poverty, underage pregnancy, house fires, road deaths, illnesses like kidney failure, cirrhosis, pancreatitis.... That's just the start. And all the while the licencing authorities are issuing more and more and more licences to sell the stuff. And anyone who objects can be abused as a killjoy. Really clever.

But hey - don't worry, be happy. Stick your head in the sand or anywhere else that takes your fancy and you won't need to know or care aboiut anyothing else but your own HAPPINESS.

And increasing the tax is going to be the cure? education is the key. But politicians are too blind or blinkered to look at what really works and just take the easy option.

[TheBall'sRound]

I'm not entirely sure what the separate queueing is hoping to achieve.

From personal experience, folk who really really want a drink would walk over glass in their bare feet to get it so the presence of a separate kiosk that only sells booze won't phase them.

Dissuading the "casual" drinker is all very well (and it IS easy to chuck a couple of bottles in the trolley) but casual drinkers must be way down the list in the Police's concerns.

What I'm trying to say is that the folk most likely to cause trouble while smashed are those who go into a supermarket with alcohol as their primary desire - if anything a different queue is going to make them less likely to buy food to soak up some of the bevvy.

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick??

[Pete]

You know, you MIGHT have a point here, except that happiness isn't the state of mind I see in most sorry drunks I encounter in my wanderings.

What I see is anger, insecurity, illness, a lot of desperation, and a lot of loneliness - people trying (and failing) to fill a huge space in their lives with whatever comes to hand - usually alcohol or some other drug. You won't find happiness in the bottom of a bottle - even a 40-ouncer.

Open your eyes, mate. What we have in Scotland today isn't a relaxed enjoyment of a few drinks in the company of friends. What we have is rampant and widespread alcohol misuse and abuse. Many town centres are no-go areas for sober people on weekend evenings. A&E departments at weekends are like war-zones, and the drunks are getting younger by the year. The incidence of alcohol-related mental illness is rising too.

I bury too many people well before their time because of alcohol abuse. I see children abused and neglected because the people responsible for them are too busy being HAPPY during HAPPY HOUR to bother their drunken backsides about them. Alcohol is a direct contributory cause of domestic abuse, street violence, child poverty, underage pregnancy, house fires, road deaths, illnesses like kidney failure, cirrhosis, pancreatitis.... That's just the start. And all the while the licencing authorities are issuing more and more and more licences to sell the stuff. And anyone who objects can be abused as a killjoy. Really clever.

But hey - don't worry, be happy. Stick your head in the sand or anywhere else that takes your fancy and you won't need to know or care aboiut anyothing else but your own HAPPINESS.

That's an excellent post.

I think what some people have to realise is that moving alcohol sales into a separate area is a form of education. When young people have something going wrong in their lives or something they find hard to handle, it's important that alcohol is not used as some sort of crutch. The message has to be conveyed early to young people that drink is not a normal handling mechanism for lifes problems but a luxury that must be used responsibly.
If separating it from everyday items in supermarkets helps then it's definately worth the inconvenience to those who are older and less impressionable.

What about the casual drinker who just puts a couple of cans in with his weekly shop? He will probably always have beer in the fridge and whenever something goes wrong the temptation is there to just down one and make everything feel better. It's unlikely, but it might just put him on the slippery slope. The beer probably wouldn't be there if it wasn't in with the everyday items.

You might think the above examples are pathetic and spineless individuals but there's probably a lot more people out there using alcohol like that than you think. Life is quite stressful and it's a coping mechanism that's literaly on tap.
Todays binge drinker could be tomorrows problem drinker and next weeks alcoholic and I think anything that helps stop the process is a good thing. The alcohol help services are woefully under-funded and are bursting at the seams already. The way things are going, what with drink getting cheaper and more youngsters drinking from a younger age, we're looking at an impending crisis.

[majorhibs]

You know, you MIGHT have a point here, except that happiness isn't the state of mind I see in most sorry drunks I encounter in my wanderings.

What I see is anger, insecurity, illness, a lot of desperation, and a lot of loneliness - people trying (and failing) to fill a huge space in their lives with whatever comes to hand - usually alcohol or some other drug. You won't find happiness in the bottom of a bottle - even a 40-ouncer.

Open your eyes, mate. What we have in Scotland today isn't a relaxed enjoyment of a few drinks in the company of friends. What we have is rampant and widespread alcohol misuse and abuse. Many town centres are no-go areas for sober people on weekend evenings. A&E departments at weekends are like war-zones, and the drunks are getting younger by the year. The incidence of alcohol-related mental illness is rising too.

I bury too many people well before their time because of alcohol abuse. I see children abused and neglected because the people responsible for them are too busy being HAPPY during HAPPY HOUR to bother their drunken backsides about them. Alcohol is a direct contributory cause of domestic abuse, street violence, child poverty, underage pregnancy, house fires, road deaths, illnesses like kidney failure, cirrhosis, pancreatitis.... That's just the start. And all the while the licencing authorities are issuing more and more and more licences to sell the stuff. And anyone who objects can be abused as a killjoy. Really clever.

But hey - don't worry, be happy. Stick your head in the sand or anywhere else that takes your fancy and you won't need to know or care aboiut anyothing else but your own HAPPINESS.

And so, 2 or 3 hundred years ago in Scotland we didnt have a problem with people gettin drunk & abusive? I think we did, a look at the old court cases will show you that, but there wasnt the internet or loads of dogooders around then, as has been pointed out by more than a few on here the way to go is educate youngsters, taxing & banning the older punters might work for mckaskill & you but theres others who think differently, fair enough your involved in helping folk but mckaskill & your ways of taxing & punishing evrybody just doesnae sit well wi some when your not coming out with anything which some people see as a right big deal & thats education of the young to hopefully stop them goin too far in the first place, as for the line that its Scotlands problem alone, well tell that to the Irish, Aussies, Germans all of whom have a citizen or two who like a drink, theres always going to be idiots who abuse whatever you put in front of them, whatever they can get their hands on, but youngsters are impressionable, they look up to kids a year or two older than them & want to be like that, thats where you've got to start, not punishing the older characters who're stuck in their ways with more taxes & bans cos they dont want to change, but showing kids alternatives & also the dangers however that would work. Nae disputing theres problems out there to be sorted but thats a law & order issue. Anyways I'm off tae stick my head back in the sand here in Nigeria where I've got to (soberly) work for a living, when I get home I hope I can run into a few o you jolly optimistic souls who always look on the bright side & maybe we can have some fun line dancin or a spot o bingo or scrabble or something, eh? Nah, mebbes I'll gie you lot a miss, have a couple of beers & unwind efter a month of working wi people who actually face a problem or two of their ane when they return home, but thats another story.

[Steve-O]

Separate queues will NOT solve the problem of alcoholism.

I have no idea when the casual drinker is being targeted, particularly when many studies have shown that regular alcohol in small amounts can actually be beneficial!

[lyonhibs]

Separate queues will NOT solve the problem of alcoholism.

I have no idea when the casual drinker is being targeted, particularly when many studies have shown that regular alcohol in small amounts can actually be beneficial!

Agree completely - that any politician thinks the source of the problem with alchoholism and alchol related illnesses etc from which we undoubtedly suffer in Scotland is to be found in the way you queue for said products in the supermarket, or even - to a lesser extent - the prices you charge for alchohol is beyond me. Short-sightedness in the extreme. Does he really think the extra "inconvenience" of having to join a seperate queue is going to put boozer's off their habit?? If anything, it might increase it, because getting a bottle of cider at 11am might not seem such a weird thing to do (not that it is for them anyway) if there was a designated "Booze queue" that if the booze-hound in question had to queue amongst shoppers getting their weekly shopping/other more "normal" types of shopping for that time of the day. It might increase it in another way, and indeed increase the consumption of alchohol if people go into a supermarket to see the booze queue (are we assuming these queues handle sales ONLY of booze, not of loads of shopping that include booze as well as groceries etc?) relatively empty compared to the main queues. The "ach I'll just get a 6 pack now and get the groceries when those queues are quieter" motivation would be strong methinks.

And why should perfectly decent people that want to get a couple of bottles of wine for a evening with friends etc along with their groceries have to fanny about with 2 seperate queues???

Completely wrong emphasis here - no great surprise from my local MSP though :grr::grr:

[Dashing Bob S]

Agree completely - that any politician thinks the source of the problem with alchoholism and alchol related illnesses etc from which we undoubtedly suffer in Scotland is to be found in the way you queue for said products in the supermarket, or even - to a lesser extent - the prices you charge for alchohol is beyond me. Short-sightedness in the extreme. Does he really think the extra "inconvenience" of having to join a seperate queue is going to put boozer's off their habit?? If anything, it might increase it, because getting a bottle of cider at 11am might not seem such a weird thing to do (not that it is for them anyway) if there was a designated "Booze queue" that if the booze-hound in question had to queue amongst shoppers getting their weekly shopping/other more "normal" types of shopping for that time of the day. It might increase it in another way, and indeed increase the consumption of alchohol if people go into a supermarket to see the booze queue (are we assuming these queues handle sales ONLY of booze, not of loads of shopping that include booze as well as groceries etc?) relatively empty compared to the main queues. The "ach I'll just get a 6 pack now and get the groceries when those queues are quieter" motivation would be strong methinks.

And why should perfectly decent people that want to get a couple of bottles of wine for a evening with friends etc along with their groceries have to fanny about with 2 seperate queues???

Completely wrong emphasis here - no great surprise from my local MSP though :grr::grr:

I think it's a bit like the cigarette ban. At first people moaned a lot of nonsense about their rights being infringed. Now most smokers agree its a good thing and only a hardcore of semi-jakey mingers would want to go back to the old days.

I think alcohol is a dangerous drug (admitedly more for some than others) and it should not be retailed in the same way as other foodstuffs. Supermarkets make a fortune on alcohol promotions, and they make it socially easy for people to buy this drug. I'm all for drinking, but people should be aware they are buying a drug and not a pint of milk.

[Steve-O]

I think it's a bit like the cigarette ban. At first people moaned a lot of nonsense about their rights being infringed. Now most smokers agree its a good thing and only a hardcore of semi-jakey mingers would want to go back to the old days.

I think alcohol is a dangerous drug (admitedly more for some than others) and it should not be retailed in the same way as other foodstuffs. Supermarkets make a fortune on alcohol promotions, and they make it socially easy for people to buy this drug. I'm all for drinking, but people should be aware they are buying a drug and not a pint of milk.

This is the comparison I am just not getting in this argument. No matter where I buy alcohol, I am quite well aware it is not the same as a loaf of bread or pint of milk!! I also do not buy alcohol as often as I would buy milk or bread!

[Dashing Bob S]

This is the comparison I am just not getting in this argument. No matter where I buy alcohol, I am quite well aware it is not the same as a loaf of bread or pint of milk!! I also do not buy alcohol as often as I would buy milk or bread!

I think you have to see as the kind of message we as a society want to send out to young people. Retailing alcohol like bread or milk or beans or meat normalises alcohol consumption and makes it seems an innocuous part of everyday life. The almost pornographic displays of alcohol advertising in supermarkets is not good as it exposes children to this drug at an early age. People make the association with wine because it traditionally compliments food, but when you have promotions of alcopops it has lost all sense of decency. Kids have to be protected from those influences and we as a society have to make sure the retailers don't get their own way all the time.

[--------]

I think it's a bit like the cigarette ban. At first people moaned a lot of nonsense about their rights being infringed. Now most smokers agree its a good thing and only a hardcore of semi-jakey mingers would want to go back to the old days.

I think alcohol is a dangerous drug (admitedly more for some than others) and it should not be retailed in the same way as other foodstuffs. Supermarkets make a fortune on alcohol promotions, and they make it socially easy for people to buy this drug. I'm all for drinking, but people should be aware they are buying a drug and not a pint of milk.


Absolutely.

The whole point of supermarket shopping is to encourage shoppers to buy stuff they neither want nor need (and stuff they possibly can't afford) on impulse.

In our local Morrisons the beer, wines and spirits are all down the far end of the store. Next the wall - beers. First stack in - spirits. Next stack - wines. Next stack, the alco-pops, perries and ciders. But that stack also has soft drinks on it, right next to the soft drinks, the message being that there's not a whole lot of difference between a John Collins of cans of Diet Irn-Bru and a bottle of alco-pop. Well, as you say, Bob - there IS a difference, and we need to acknowledge that.

Really - how much inconvenience is involved in doing your shopping, paying for it at one check-out, and then going to another part of the store where kids aren't allowed to buy some beer or wine or whatever?

In this country we have a major problem with excessive drinking. It's arguably a worse problem than the problem of illegal drugs like heroin or crack cocaine. For many people it's as dangerous as heroin or crack cocaine. It's a depressive drug with serious side-effects when taken to excess, and between 10% and 15% of the general population cannot control their intake - and they cause untold hurt and grief to themselves and to anyone close to them.

Separate queues aren't going to solve the problem, but we need to change the culture we live in, I think, to make that culture less accepting of the alcohol as the drug of choice for the vast majority of the population. To put it bluntly - when a modest proposal like this results in a thread like this, there's a problem.

"More nonsense from the ex-alcoholic McAskill"???

One, it's not nonsense - it's a proposal which might go a little way to eroding the assumption that the drinks industry should get away with whatever it wants to get away with, all in the name of a profit (at huge social and personal cost to others).

Two - if Kenny M DID have a problem with alcohol, and if he's doing something about it on his own personal level, then good on him. I learned years ago that people who abuse others as alcoholics or ex-alcoholics may very well (often but not always) be growing a wee problem of their own with the stuff.

Three - as a drug, alcohol doesn't make you happy - it lifts you temporarily, then drops you deeper than when you started. This is FACT. In moderation, as a social beverage, it's a friend. In excess, as a necessity, it's an evil master that'll end by taking everything you have if you let it.

The only people who profit from booze in the long run are the people who produce it and market it - and they couldn't give a **** about anyone but themselves.

The US tried Prohibition in the 1920's, and failed miserably. It's not about stopping people enjoying a glass or two. But when town centres are no-go areas every weekend because of violent and abusive drunken morons littering the place, we need to do something.

(Rant over.)

[Steve-O]

I think you have to see as the kind of message we as a society want to send out to young people. Retailing alcohol like bread or milk or beans or meat normalises alcohol consumption and makes it seems an innocuous part of everyday life. The almost pornographic displays of alcohol advertising in supermarkets is not good as it exposes children to this drug at an early age. People make the association with wine because it traditionally compliments food, but when you have promotions of alcopops it has lost all sense of decency. Kids have to be protected from those influences and we as a society have to make sure the retailers don't get their own way all the time.

I would argue that promotion of so-called 'alcopops' is much less than it was around 10 years ago when Hooch and such things came on the market. There is much less of this type of thing available now as far as I am aware, or perhaps it really just is marketed less??

Personally, I think kids are over-protected at times and often thought of as 'stupid' or too easily led. Granted, there are kids like that, but there are also adults like that! If the correct education is provided by parents and the education system then kids should be able to identify advertising for what it is, i.e. you don't HAVE to buy things just because they have large-scale advertising to accompany them!

[Steve-O]

Absolutely.

The whole point of supermarket shopping is to encourage shoppers to buy stuff they neither want nor need (and stuff they possibly can't afford) on impulse.

In our local Morrisons the beer, wines and spirits are all down the far end of the store. Next the wall - beers. First stack in - spirits. Next stack - wines. Next stack, the alco-pops, perries and ciders. But that stack also has soft drinks on it, right next to the soft drinks, the message being that there's not a whole lot of difference between a John Collins of cans of Diet Irn-Bru and a bottle of alco-pop. Well, as you say, Bob - there IS a difference, and we need to acknowledge that.

Really - how much inconvenience is involved in doing your shopping, paying for it at one check-out, and then going to another part of the store where kids aren't allowed to buy some beer or wine or whatever?

In this country we have a major problem with excessive drinking. It's arguably a worse problem than the problem of illegal drugs like heroin or crack cocaine. For many people it's as dangerous as heroin or crack cocaine. It's a depressive drug with serious side-effects when taken to excess, and between 10% and 15% of the general population cannot control their intake - and they cause untold hurt and grief to themselves and to anyone close to them.

Separate queues aren't going to solve the problem, but we need to change the culture we live in, I think, to make that culture less accepting of the alcohol as the drug of choice for the vast majority of the population. To put it bluntly - when a modest proposal like this results in a thread like this, there's a problem.

"More nonsense from the ex-alcoholic McAskill"???

One, it's not nonsense - it's a proposal which might go a little way to eroding the assumption that the drinks industry should get away with whatever it wants to get away with, all in the name of a profit (at huge social and personal cost to others).

Two - if Kenny M DID have a problem with alcohol, and if he's doing something about it on his own personal level, then good on him. I learned years ago that people who abuse others as alcoholics or ex-alcoholics may very well (often but not always) be growing a wee problem of their own with the stuff.

Three - as a drug, alcohol doesn't make you happy - it lifts you temporarily, then drops you deeper than when you started. This is FACT. In moderation, as a social beverage, it's a friend. In excess, as a necessity, it's an evil master that'll end by taking everything you have if you let it.

The only people who profit from booze in the long run are the people who produce it and market it - and they couldn't give a **** about anyone but themselves.

The US tried Prohibition in the 1920's, and failed miserably. It's not about stopping people enjoying a glass or two. But when town centres are no-go areas every weekend because of violent and abusive drunken morons littering the place, we need to do something.

(Rant over.)

I simply find it galling that as one of a minority of people who developed a problem with alcohol, McAskill seems hell-bent on making it more expensive and inconvenient for a majority of people who DO NOT have a problem with alcohol. It's as if he believes everyone will turn out like him.

Additionally, he is the JUSTICE Minister but all I have heard out of him since he got in is possible legislation about alcohol. How about he does something about the many other issues that are surely under his remit rather than constantly coming up with new schemes about separate queues for drink, increasing taxes on drink, banning happy hours, banning special offers and all the rest of it.

[majorhibs]

I simply find it galling that as one of a minority of people who developed a problem with alcohol, McAskill seems hell-bent on making it more expensive and inconvenient for a majority of people who DO NOT have a problem with alcohol. It's as if he believes everyone will turn out like him.

Additionally, he is the JUSTICE Minister but all I have heard out of him since he got in is possible legislation about alcohol. How about he does something about the many other issues that are surely under his remit rather than constantly coming up with new schemes about separate queues for drink, increasing taxes on drink, banning happy hours, banning special offers and all the rest of it.

Steve-0- give up on it with "Doddie" he is on a "rant", he knows all there is to know about "booze" and what it does to everyone & all us who disagree are often but not always having problems wi "booze" ourselfs, him & "kenny m" know whats best for us, society, the young, poor, lost etc & thats tax/ban "booze", something needs to be done & their just the guys to do it. No more no-go areas or drunken abusive violent morons anymore, Scotlands own two caped crusaders are on a mission/rant, all for our own good as well. John Knox would be proud o them! :wink:

[Dashing Bob S]

Steve-0- give up on it with "Doddie" he is on a "rant", he knows all there is to know about "booze" and what it does to everyone & all us who disagree are often but not always having problems wi "booze" ourselfs, him & "kenny m" know whats best for us, society, the young, poor, lost etc & thats tax/ban "booze", something needs to be done & their just the guys to do it. No more no-go areas or drunken abusive violent morons anymore, Scotlands own two caped crusaders are on a mission/rant, all for our own good as well. John Knox would be proud o them! :wink:

Bit unfair, MH, Doddie and Stevie are both very erudite and friendly in expressing their views and haven't resorted to personal attacks on each other. It's a good debate and one that needs to be had. I think people like yourself and Stevie are right to be concerned with politicians telling us what to do. However, its just because they are more overt about it than the subtle advertisers, we believe that we have freedom of choice from their (the advertisers) influence. If advertising wasn't effective, they wouldn't spend millions on it. After all, they are in this game to make profit, nothing else. Politicians are totally correct to try and force a socially responsible agenda. If they didn't they would be serving the interests of the alcohol industry, and not the health of our citizens and the future of our children.

Yes, there always is a balance to be struck, but the alcohol industry has been terrible at self-regulating, largely due to New Labour's appauling indulgence of them. McAskill is behaving responsibly as a pro-active politician with a more solid agenda. I believe his motive are higher and purer than that of some lazy slob who can't be arsed queuing twice. (And i'm not meaning to imply that's your motive here, you've made it quite clear that your concerned with individual liberties and freedom of choice, which is laudable.)

[majorhibs]

Bit unfair, MH, Doddie and Stevie are both very erudite and friendly in expressing their views and haven't resorted to personal attacks on each other. It's a good debate and one that needs to be had. I think people like yourself and Stevie are right to be concerned with politicians telling us what to do. However, its just because they are more overt about it than the subtle advertisers, we believe that we have freedom of choice from their (the advertisers) influence. If advertising wasn't effective, they wouldn't spend millions on it. After all, they are in this game to make profit, nothing else. Politicians are totally correct to try and force a socially responsible agenda. If they didn't they would be serving the interests of the alcohol industry, and not the health of our citizens and the future of our children.

Yes, there always is a balance to be struck, but the alcohol industry has been terrible at self-regulating, largely due to New Labour's appauling indulgence of them. McAskill is behaving responsibly as a pro-active politician with a more solid agenda. I believe his motive are higher and purer than that of some lazy slob who can't be arsed queuing twice. (And i'm not meaning to imply that's your motive here, you've made it quite clear that your concerned with individual liberties and freedom of choice, which is laudable.)

Nah Bob, mcaskill is trying to be popular & doing the usual bent politicians fi nowadays- trying to tax anywhere & everywhere they can get away with- as for personal attacks your exaggeratin a wee bit there surely, was only sayin how doddie gives his views & experiences o life & alcohol as THE experiences o same, thought the ref. tae john knox was funny but maybes thats just me, my views on this are education of youngsters should start at home & in school- fer instance I was warned of the dangers o smoking 30 odd years ago & never went near, but alcohol- that was never pointed oot to be bad in my upbringing so in my young views it was slightly glamourised, a bit more education would probably have been better at that time imo, anyways is this no all a bit heavy for you, I expect D.B.S posts to give it tight to johnny yam etc for our amusement no make me have to think before I reply like this.

[Phil D. Rolls]

If individual alcoholics have to acknowledge their drink problem, I think the same thing applies to a society. It seems to me there is a heck of a lot of denial in evidence in this discussion.

There is firm evidence that Scotland (and the rest of the UK) is drinking too much. Earlier I commented on the increase in people in their forties suffering from alcoholic dementia. Not conclusive evidence that it is due to the price of booze falling, it being more readily available, and a relaxed attitude to its consumption. However it might be argued that there is a strong possibilty they are related.

I am for a permissive society, where people make their own educated choices. If people are hell bent on destroying themselves with a drug, then let them. Let's not kid on that it isn't happening though.

I can see concerns that McCaskill's proposal is the thin end of the wedge. Supermarket loyalty cards are a superb way of tracking how much booze, fatty food, and fruit and veg someone buys. The time could come when we are forbidden from buying wine because we haven't bought enough good stuff.

At the moment though, I think it is a fairly sensible proposal. It's for people to engage in the debate though, to get political, and realise that they have a say in how their lives are run.

Not that our rulers want that - in fact creating a sober nation that actually has time to think about what's going on, might be the greatest mistake they make. State sponsored drug abuse is the modern equivalent of bread and circuses.

Or as Marx might say - opiates are the religion of the people.

[--------]

I simply find it galling that as one of a minority of people who developed a problem with alcohol, McAskill seems hell-bent on making it more expensive and inconvenient for a majority of people who DO NOT have a problem with alcohol. It's as if he believes everyone will turn out like him.

Additionally, he is the JUSTICE Minister but all I have heard out of him since he got in is possible legislation about alcohol. How about he does something about the many other issues that are surely under his remit rather than constantly coming up with new schemes about separate queues for drink, increasing taxes on drink, banning happy hours, banning special offers and all the rest of it.

I apologise if I was taking things a wee bit too far there, Steve, but as FR says in his last post, as a society we're in a serious state of denial concerning the alcohol-related problems confronting us.


Neither DBS nor myself are Prohibitionists - for one thing, the Volstead Act and the ensuing mayhem rather proves it doesn't work. But equally, the way we are right now is rapidly becoming intolerable. For another thing, I don't guess either Bob or I are in the business of stopping people enjoying themselves. But what I see around me right now isn't all people enjoying themselves. Quite the opposite, too often, IMO.

Think about this:

A huge number of the house-fires that happen each year in Scotland are caused by someone the worse for drink setting fire to himself or to his property.
Drink-driving, while less common than in the past, still causes too many deaths, and too much injury and pain, to be ignored.
Many town-centres in Scotland are now effectively no-go areas on Friday and Saturday evenings, due to the large number of aggressive, incoherent, and incapable drunks spewing out of the clubs and pubs in the wee small hours.
A&E departments are reporting children of 9 or 10 being brought in seriously ill and incapacitated through alcohol.
It has become very difficult indeed to get ambulance and/or paramedic assistance on Fridays and Saturdays in Scotland nowadays - they're all out scooping up the drunks. Don't have a heart-attack on a weekend evening, mate - you'll die before they get to you, like a chap I knew in Motherwell. This is not a happy society, Steve - it's a sick one.
The stats from the World Health Organisation estimet that in any given society, between 10% and 15% of the population will develop an addiction problem with alcohol at some point in their lives. A minority, true, but a big one. But that doesn't include "non-addictive" problems, like liver disease, heart disease, kidney and pancreatic problems, family break-up, child neglect/abuse, public disturbance, public violence, and so on and so on and so on.... Alcohol is a factor in all these things and more, and anything that begins to put over the message that booze should not and does not rule in Scotland is, IMO, a good thing. Far rather have a raft of small(ish) measures, like the ones you mention above than let the situation deteriorate to the point where nothing can be done about it at all.

And let's face it, the ONLY reason for "happy hours" or special promotions is to get people drinking a lot early in the evening, so that they go one to overdo it later on.

And who gets the benefit? The manufacturers and retailers, at the expense of society as a whole.

IMO people like Ken McAskill and Charles Kennedy who admit they have a problem and do something about it should be encouraged, not have their status as "ex-alcoholics" thrown back at them as an insult. "Ex-alcoholic" is wrong, anyway - an alcoholic is either "drinking" or "recovering".

And maybe KM's personal experience gives him an insight into the situation that others lack? One that might give him a deeper understanding of the problem than you or I? :cool2:

And hasn't he already got himself involved in trying to sort out the prison situation, and police salaries, and a few other messes he inherited from Cathy Jamieson, surely one of the most pathetic and least impressive figures ever to "grace" the Cabinet of the late unlamented Jack McConnell?



Nah Bob, mcaskill is trying to be popular & doing the usual bent politicians fi nowadays- trying to tax anywhere & everywhere they can get away with- as for personal attacks your exaggeratin a wee bit there surely, was only sayin how doddie gives his views & experiences o life & alcohol as THE experiences o same, thought the ref. tae john knox was funny but maybes thats just me, my views on this are education of youngsters should start at home & in school- fer instance I was warned of the dangers o smoking 30 odd years ago & never went near, but alcohol- that was never pointed oot to be bad in my upbringing so in my young views it was slightly glamourised, a bit more education would probably have been better at that time imo, anyways is this no all a bit heavy for you, I expect D.B.S posts to give it tight to johnny yam etc for our amusement no make me have to think before I reply like this.


You seem a wee bit out of your depth here, major.

D'you want someone to throw you a lifebelt? :devil:

[--------]

Steve-0- give up on it with "Doddie" he is on a "rant", he knows all there is to know about "booze" and what it does to everyone & all us who disagree are often but not always having problems wi "booze" ourselfs, him & "kenny m" know whats best for us, society, the young, poor, lost etc & thats tax/ban "booze", something needs to be done & their just the guys to do it. No more no-go areas *or drunken abusive violent morons anymore, Scotlands own two caped crusaders are on a mission/rant, all for our own good as well. John Knox would be proud o them! :wink:


*I think you're being a bit hard on yourself here, mate. :devil:

I can put you in touch with an anger-management counsellor if you'd like. He managed to stop me chewing the carpet a few years back. As you can see, I'm now a mild-mannered, be-spectacled caped crusader whose every word is like balm to a tortured soul. :angelic:

I'd also suggest that (as far as the problems of alcohol-abuse in Scotland in the 21st century go) you waken up and smell the coffee, but maybe you don't drink coffee? :cool2:

[HibbyGuBrath]

I don't think anyone can dispute the scale of the problem, Doddie's described it pretty well... . Not to do something about it because it creates a minor inconvenience to the majority of us is pretty selfish IMO. I work in public health and there's a public health model used called the three e's. Education Environment and Enforcement. All three need to be used in dealing with public health problems. But all the research points to environment being the most important. If you want to change peoples behaviour you need to change the environment in which we live. That means changing how we buy and drink alcohol. If the rest of us who drink responsibly have to suffer a wee bit, then I think it's a small price to pay.

[Dashing Bob S]

Read a disturbing piece a while back on the growth of alcohol related alziemers (pre-seile dementia), which as FR stated somewhere else on this thread, is on the increase in Scotland. The central arguement was that binge drinking or regular drinking destroys levels of Vitamin D, which can trigger a form of alziemers. Can't quite recall where I read this (too much drink probably!), I'm sure FR would know more about it.

That this kind of health hazard information is swept under the carpet by the alcohol industry when the tobacco people were compelled to publish warnings on cigarette packets is plain wrong.

On a personal level, the nephew is at the age (17) where going out and getting drunk is jolly good fun and the oldest lad (12) looks up to him. I know I have hardly been a role model of sobriety myself but I confess I'm now at the age of worrying about this drug and its omnipresent menace.

[--------]

I don't think anyone can dispute the scale of the problem, Doddie's described it pretty well... . Not to do something about it because it creates a minor inconvenience to the majority of us is pretty selfish IMO. I work in public health and there's a public health model used called the three e's. Education Environment and Enforcement. All three need to be used in dealing with public health problems. But all the research points to environment being the most important. If you want to change peoples behaviour you need to change the environment in which we live. That means changing how we buy and drink alcohol. If the rest of us who drink responsibly have to suffer a wee bit, then I think it's a small price to pay.


What he said. :agree:

[Steve-O]

I don't dispute any of the above with regards to Friday and Sat nights in towns being no-go areas and drunks causing carnage in hospitals and whatever else.

What I would say though, and speaking from a lot of personal experience :greengrin , is that the majority of people acting like idiots when they are drunk (and by this I mean those that are fighting, vandalising things, abusing people verbally etc etc) are generally bams in daily life - i.e. alcohol only makes them worse.

I think I am trying to say that we are focusing too much on the alcohol problem alone, there needs to be more focus on why many young people today are growing up without a care in the world and act like complete @rses most of their lives. Neds are neds, give them some alcohol as well and they are 'uber-neds'!

Over here in Wellington, Friday and Saturday nights are huge too, the main street for drinking is absolutely packed out and I don't see any less drinking going on than back home. However, I have not seen one single fight on a night out since I arrived here (3 months ago) and I have been out and about a fair few times. I am not saying there is NO bother here at all, but it is certainly less apparent than in the UK. One possible reason - all the pubs etc seem to close at different times. The place I normally end up in closes at 6am and I never usually make it until then, therefore everyone doesn't spill out at once. This was one of the reasons for having 24 hour licences when the Blair govt came up with it but IIRC it ended up being totally watered down and very few establishments actually open later than they did before and the majority of places all close at the same time.

Food for thought?

My point is that I think McAskill is targeting the wrong areas, and the wrong groups, possibly for the wrong reasons.

[majorhibs]

*I think you're being a bit hard on yourself here, mate. :devil:

I can put you in touch with an anger-management counsellor if you'd like. He managed to stop me chewing the carpet a few years back. As you can see, I'm now a mild-mannered, be-spectacled caped crusader whose every word is like balm to a tortured soul. :angelic:

I'd also suggest that (as far as the problems of alcohol-abuse in Scotland in the 21st century go) you waken up and smell the coffee, but maybe you don't drink coffee? :cool2:

Aye right then Doddie, I'm actually sittin having my coffee the now, as strong as I'll see this month at work, as far as your offer of your counsellor's services mate, its just no my cup of tea, if you'll pardon the pun, never really felt the need, I'll leave that to the likes of yourself when you come down from getting all alaister campbell about the evils of booze & the 21st century, maybe then you & kenny m can come out with something constructive that'll no involve taxes & inconvenience, or if they do, the money from said taxes goes directly to education, & no wage rises for politicians. :wink:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I don't dispute any of the above with regards to Friday and Sat nights in towns being no-go areas and drunks causing carnage in hospitals and whatever else.

What I would say though, and speaking from a lot of personal experience :greengrin , is that the majority of people acting like idiots when they are drunk (and by this I mean those that are fighting, vandalising things, abusing people verbally etc etc) are generally bams in daily life - i.e. alcohol only makes them worse.

I think I am trying to say that we are focusing too much on the alcohol problem alone, there needs to be more focus on why many young people today are growing up without a care in the world and act like complete @rses most of their lives. Neds are neds, give them some alcohol as well and they are 'uber-neds'!

Over here in Wellington, Friday and Saturday nights are huge too, the main street for drinking is absolutely packed out and I don't see any less drinking going on than back home. However, I have not seen one single fight on a night out since I arrived here (3 months ago) and I have been out and about a fair few times. I am not saying there is NO bother here at all, but it is certainly less apparent than in the UK. One possible reason - all the pubs etc seem to close at different times. The place I normally end up in closes at 6am and I never usually make it until then, therefore everyone doesn't spill out at once. This was one of the reasons for having 24 hour licences when the Blair govt came up with it but IIRC it ended up being totally watered down and very few establishments actually open later than they did before and the majority of places all close at the same time.

Food for thought?

My point is that I think McAskill is targeting the wrong areas, and the wrong groups, possibly for the wrong reasons.

I'm not so sure. Youngsters will always act stupid. They are "malenky clockwork oranges". All you can do is guide them and make sure they don't fall off the table.

It's not the drinking in pubs and in the city centre that is the problem. It's people knecking a couple of bottles of wine a night in their suburban homes. You can only guess why that has increased, but I relate it to the isolation.

People get up in the morning, jump in their car, spend a day at work, get back in the car and then have five or six hours to kill. People don't socialise as much as they used to, and alcohol becomes one of their best friends.

That said, kids can access booze too easily these days. You used to sneak a couple of cans of export, now the boys walk down the road with a box of lager without trying to hide it.

For me, the first step has to be an acknowledgement that alcohol is a drug. Used properly it can be a great pleasure, but used irresponsibly it can really mess you up.

[--------]

Aye right then Doddie, I'm actually sittin having my coffee the now, as strong as I'll see this month at work, as far as your offer of your counsellor's services mate, its just no my cup of tea, if you'll pardon the pun, never really felt the need, I'll leave that to the likes of yourself when you come down from getting all alaister campbell about the evils of booze & the 21st century, maybe then you & kenny m can come out with something constructive that'll no involve taxes & inconvenience, or if they do, the money from said taxes goes directly to education, & no wage rises for politicians. :wink:


God forbid that YOU should be inconvenienced, mate. Or have to pay a wee bit more for a bottle to sook at the end of the day.

I don't think you even see the problem, do you? :bitchy:

[--------]

I'm not so sure. Youngsters will always act stupid. They are "malenky clockwork oranges". All you can do is guide them and make sure they don't fall off the table.

It's not the drinking in pubs and in the city centre that is the problem. It's people knecking a couple of bottles of wine a night in their suburban homes. You can only guess why that has increased, but I relate it to the isolation.

People get up in the morning, jump in their car, spend a day at work, get back in the car and then have five or six hours to kill. People don't socialise as much as they used to, and alcohol becomes one of their best friends.

That said, kids can access booze too easily these days. You used to sneak a couple of cans of export, now the boys walk down the road with a box of lager without trying to hide it.

For me, the first step has to be an acknowledgement that alcohol is a drug. Used properly it can be a great pleasure, but used irresponsibly it can really mess you up.


That's it in a nutshell, FR.

IMO right now the priority as far as the government in Westminster is concerned is to allow as plentiful a supply of alcohol at as cheap a price to as many paople as possible with as few effective legal controls as possible.

Which is how so many teenagers and children have easy and regular access to it.

Now this may or may not be related to the fact that New Labour under Blair and Brown were (and remain) heavily subsidised by the drinks industry. I wouldn't like to suggest that our worthy Prime Minister and Chancellor Darling might be prepared to sacrifice principles (and the health of young people) to do a favour for their party's financial backers.

All Ken MacAskill appears to me to be suggesting is a shift of balance away from the idea that "booze must always rule", even when the consequences are so clearly socially destructive as they are in this case.

There's surely a balance between the total deregulation we seem to be rapidly approaching (which is causing a lot of damage at individual and social levels) and the dreary and joyless abstainers' prohibitionist proposals which always seem to be the answer offered by my more vocal and authoritarian colleagues.

I don't think re-organising the interior arrangements of supermarkets, raising the tax-level on the product to take account of the considerable cost to the health services caused by alcohol-related injury and illness, controlling advertising more effectively than now, etc, is such a high price to pay to communicate the fact that alcohol isn't just another grocery item, but a mind- and mood-altering drug which can have serious side-effects.

Police on nightshift, nurses and doctors in A&E units, and late-night taxi-drivers and bus-drivers know what I'm talking about.

I think you make a very good point about the way a lot of people don't socialise nowadays. We travel in our own wee cars rather than using public transport (where we actually meet other people and may have to speak to them); we hire a DVD and watch it at home, rather than going out to the cinema; we don't settle into communities and make friends and put down roots as we used to.

"People get up in the morning, jump in their car, spend a day at work, get back in the car and then have five or six hours to kill. People don't socialise as much as they used to, and alcohol becomes one of their best friends."

Couldn't put it better myself.

[majorhibs]

God forbid that YOU should be inconvenienced, mate. Or have to pay a wee bit more for a bottle to sook at the end of the day.

I don't think you even see the problem, do you? :bitchy:

Yes alaister, I do. I also see how you like to skim over the bit about bein constructive & taxes so you can push YOUR pet wee topic without looking at all that was said. You'd do real well in new labour imo. :wink:

[--------]

Yes alaister, I do. I also see how you like to skim over the bit about bein constructive & taxes so you can push YOUR pet wee topic without looking at all that was said. You'd do real well in new labour imo. :wink:


:confused:

[Port O'Leaf]

F.A.O MajorHibs.

What's your opinion on the fact that tobacco products are displayed and sold from behind a separate counter in supermarkets and shops?

[Steve-O]

I'm not so sure. Youngsters will always act stupid. They are "malenky clockwork oranges". All you can do is guide them and make sure they don't fall off the table.

It's not the drinking in pubs and in the city centre that is the problem. It's people knecking a couple of bottles of wine a night in their suburban homes. You can only guess why that has increased, but I relate it to the isolation.

.

Not too sure I agree with this?

You are also contradicting Doddie there?

Ok, 2 bottles of wine per night might be excessive but I am not really sure McAskill is targeting home based wine drinkers with these policies is he?

[--------]

Not too sure I agree with this?

You are also contradicting Doddie there?

Ok, 2 bottles of wine per night might be excessive but I am not really sure McAskill is targeting home based wine drinkers with these policies is he?


I think KM is simply looking to have alcohol sold in supermarkets under the same conditions as already apply t cigarettes and tobacco ( and lottery tickets). I really don't think that's unreasonable. As I've already said, in our local Morrisons' the alcohol is stacked right niext to the soft drinks and stuff like Irn-Bru and Pepsi (kids' drinks) are right beside alco-pops and cider. If this isn't encouraging children to drink, it's surely the next worst thing, IMO.

What makes someone a "problem drinker" I don't know. I remember years ago getting roped in to helping at the Talbot Centre that used to be in Salamander Street -guys who had hit the skids, who were homeless for whatever reason (they weren't all alcoholics) could get a hot meal there, a wash and a haircut and so on, and if they did happen to get the chance of a job they could get kitted out in decent clothes and so on to give them at least a wee chance to get back on the rails.

One night I went down to give a hand. One of the other volunteers that night was the headmaster of a big RC secondary school (a very good one, btw). We were getting the supper served when a wee guy called John came in. John was always very quiet, very well-mannered, no trouble at any time - a really nice wee guy, just never sober.

When we were done the headmaster nudged me and nodded towards wee John. "See wee John?" he said. "I used to play football with him. I was left-back and he was my winger."

It turned out they had played together for a good Junior team in West Lothian, and John had been good enough to attract attention from Hibs, Hearts, and Falkirk. He could have played senior football in the old First Division - if only he had been able to keep reasonably sober.

Two young men - one went to university, went into teaching, and made a good career for himself, the other (not stupid, not depraved or degenerate, and coming from a similar social background) ending up on the streets with all his possessions in a black plastic bag.

Nobody will ever stop anyone else from drinking - look at Prohibition in the States, after all. But we don't need to construct our society and culture in such a way as to encourage the youngest and most vulnerable members of society to see alcohol as a necessary accompaniment to every social activity - or even a substitute for social activity.

It angers me to see corner shopkeepers openly selling alcohol to kids they know are below the legal age-limit, making a profit selling something they know harms those kids' health. The earlier a person starts drinking heavily, the more likely it is that they'll damage their kidneys, liver, pancreas. And yup - we all did it, but it doesn't make it right or sensible, and it's a fact that under-age drinkers ARE starting younger and younger, and that cirrhosis or the liver is now the illness of choice among women in their 20's and 30's.

But when anyone expresses concern or suggests that something needs to be done. Jeez!

PS: Two bottles of wine a night REALLY isn't a good idea, mate. Not over the long haul. Seriously? :cool2:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Not too sure I agree with this?

You are also contradicting Doddie there?

Ok, 2 bottles of wine per night might be excessive but I am not really sure McAskill is targeting home based wine drinkers with these policies is he?

Firstly, although Doddie and I seem to have similair opinions, we aren't working together on this.

I'm not sure about where McCaskill is coming from, but I think he is trying to address the strain that alcohol is putting on health services in this country. Taking a guess, I would say that the control is as much aimed at dealing with the whole drink culture. I'm in favour, because the move makes everyone think about whether they want to buy drink, rather than treating it as just another thing to throw in the supermarket trolley.

The youth thing can be dealt with fairly easilty I would think. Lifting kids sitting on park benches with 24 cans of Carling would go some way.

[--------]

Firstly, although Doddie and I seem to have similair opinions, we aren't working together on this.

I'm not sure about where McCaskill is coming from, but I think he is trying to address the strain that alcohol is putting on health services in this country. Taking a guess, I would say that the control is as much aimed at dealing with the whole drink culture. I'm in favour, because the move makes everyone think about whether they want to buy drink, rather than treating it as just another thing to throw in the supermarket trolley.

The youth thing can be dealt with fairly easilty I would think. Lifting kids sitting on park benches with 24 cans of Carling would go some way.

Aye, but we were being plagued by a bunch of Celtic supporting neds in a park at the back of our house. We had constant drunken behaviour, loud music, foul language, and abuse to contend with. I telephoned the police a number of times, but by the time they got there (sirens blaring, lights flashing so the neds would know they were coming) there was nothing to deal with.

Eventually we actually contrived to get the neds, two witnesses, and the plods together at the "locus" (that's plodspeak, btw) and the plods proceeded to inform us that they could do nothing, since no offence was actually taking place right there and then (the neds weren't actually pouring it down their necks in front of the plods, and had switched off the ghetto-blaster) "the youngsters were entitled to make use of the amenities of the park like anyone else."

Up till then I hadn't realised that Buckfast bottles become invisible when the police arrive....

Oh, and when I asked the senior plod for his collar number (which he had covered up with reflective PVC waistcoat, he threatened to arrest ME.

They were from Bellshill, right enough, so maybe I shouldn't have expected any better.