Trams....again....

[Ed De Gramo]

Was reading in the EEN that Leith Walk will become a 1 way street while the tram lines get put in......

Southbound traffic will get priority and Northbound will get diverted to Easter Road.....

Traders are apparently up in arms about this and i for one was against the trams from the start...a complete waste of time!!!!!!!

If a tram breaks down.....then it holds the rest up..........
:blah::blah:

[Pete]

Trams are a total waste of time...a project designed solely to satisfy some very big egos.

They might come in handy if you live in Leith or parts of the west but what about the rest of us? Those in the south, East, North or South-west won't ever be seeing one of these things. How will this benefit the majority of the population? It won't. They will probably just add to the congestion in the centre of town.

All it's done so far is bring misery to hundreds of small businesses.

Yet again a few idiots who thought they had a brainwave have wasted millions and inconvenienced us all....remember the city centre traffic management scheme with bollards and traffic lights on George street?

Unfortunately there is nothing we can do but let the lunatics do what they want.

[Ed De Gramo]

Trams are a total waste of time...a project designed solely to satisfy some very big egos.

They might come in handy if you live in Leith or parts of the west but what about the rest of us? Those in the south, East, North or South-west won't ever be seeing one of these things. How will this benefit the majority of the population? It won't. They will probably just add to the congestion in the centre of town.

All it's done so far is bring misery to hundreds of small businesses.

Yet again a few idiots who thought they had a brainwave have wasted millions and inconvenienced us all....remember the city centre traffic management scheme with bollards and traffic lights on George street?

Unfortunately there is nothing we can do but let the lunatics do what they want.

Going by how I get to work...I cannae see myself ever on one....no need really...the buses do the trick for me :agree:

Didn't the SNP say they didn't want them????

[Little Miss Perfect]

Trams...an effin joke,waste of time and money :grr:

[Jack]

I overheard a very old couple talking on the bus yesterday convinced that only one or two people will ever use the trams! F, I thought, that would be £300,000,000 a ticket :greengrin

[Dashing Bob S]

Trams basically rule. If people think we can go on with the car dominating our medieval cities and destroying the environment, they are living in a fools paradise. Get with the project, ladies and gents.

Dublin, Manchester, South London...everywhere they've been introduced they have been a success.

You mean to say there is going to be some inconvenience about putting in a rapid transit system? Now there's a shock!

[Iain G]

Trams basically rule. If people think we can go on with the car dominating our medieval cities and destroying the environment, they are living in a fools paradise. Get with the project, ladies and gents.

Dublin, Manchester, South London...everywhere they've been introduced they have been a success.

You mean to say there is going to be some inconvenience about putting in a rapid transit system? Now there's a shock!

I know several folks from Dublin who would disagree with you on that level of success Bob :agree:

I think most folks fundamentally agree that trams are a much nicer and much more environmentally friendly way to get about than buses, and proabably will attract more folks out of their cars than the current LRT bus services does. I love travelling around cities like Melbourne in trams, its a great city with a fab integrated transport system, would love to live in a city like that (and maybe will one day!) where its eay enough to get around without the need for a car.

However, what we are getting in Edinburgh is a half baked fop from the outgoing cooncil, it is not going to cut congestion in and around Edinburgh, if anything it will make matters worse as it is not replacing the buses on these busy LRT routes, mearly adding another mode of transport.

A fully integrated transport system is needed for Edinburgh, however this is a half baked lame-brained attempt.

Some things that SHOULD be being considered are:

No cars in the city centre

Trying to remove cars from the road BEFORE causing traffic nightmares with the tram installation, opening up of the suburban railways would help this for example.

Proper tram network, not just this one (and a half!) line we are getting...

Free tram/light rapid transit system around the city centre area

Transport hubs/nodes at Haymarket & Waverly & St James Centre/Bus Station where all transport from outside the city comes into the one place (they are missing a major trick in not making Haymarket the hub of inner Edinburgh travel IMHO.)

Re-opening of the Suburban railway systems

Dedicated train link to Edinburgh Airport, via Edinburgh Park and into Haymarket

Removal of as many LRT smelly double deckers as possible and replace with bendy bus style on non tram routes

Improved connections from park and ride places into town

Improved provision of cycle lanes and secure bike parking areas

Just my thoughts like! Typical Edinburgh is putting the horse before the cart, I mean this tram installation means they are NARROWING the pavements along Princes St, what good does that do for encouraging people off fuming transport and onto foot? :grr:

It takes big thinking and big decision making to sort out a transport system for a city, but Edinburgh is missing the mark as usual and no one is looking at the big picture really and have missed a golden oportunity to really bring the transport network in and around Edinburgh into the 21st century...shame really

[Steve-O]

I know several folks from Dublin who would disagree with you on that level of success Bob :agree:

I think most folks fundamentally agree that trams are a much nicer and much more environmentally friendly way to get about than buses, and proabably will attract more folks out of their cars than the current LRT bus services does. I love travelling around cities like Melbourne in trams, its a great city with a fab integrated transport system, would love to live in a city like that (and maybe will one day!) where its eay enough to get around without the need for a car.

However, what we are getting in Edinburgh is a half baked fop from the outgoing cooncil, it is not going to cut congestion in and around Edinburgh, if anything it will make matters worse as it is not replacing the buses on these busy LRT routes, mearly adding another mode of transport.

A fully integrated transport system is needed for Edinburgh, however this is a half baked lame-brained attempt.

Some things that SHOULD be being considered are:

No cars in the city centre

Trying to remove cars from the road BEFORE causing traffic nightmares with the tram installation, opening up of the suburban railways would help this for example.

Proper tram network, not just this one (and a half!) line we are getting...

Free tram/light rapid transit system around the city centre area

Transport hubs/nodes at Haymarket & Waverly & St James Centre/Bus Station where all transport from outside the city comes into the one place (they are missing a major trick in not making Haymarket the hub of inner Edinburgh travel IMHO.)

Re-opening of the Suburban railway systems

Dedicated train link to Edinburgh Airport, via Edinburgh Park and into Haymarket

Removal of as many LRT smelly double deckers as possible and replace with bendy bus style on non tram routes

Improved connections from park and ride places into town

Improved provision of cycle lanes and secure bike parking areas

Just my thoughts like! Typical Edinburgh is putting the horse before the cart, I mean this tram installation means they are NARROWING the pavements along Princes St, what good does that do for encouraging people off fuming transport and onto foot? :grr:

It takes big thinking and big decision making to sort out a transport system for a city, but Edinburgh is missing the mark as usual and no one is looking at the big picture really and have missed a golden oportunity to really bring the transport network in and around Edinburgh into the 21st century...shame really

Tend to agree with most of that.

I mean, if the tram network was much more expansive, it might be worth it (i.e. going as far as Portobello / Musselburgh, and out to Dreghorn or wherever in the South) but simply adding tram lines to what are already the busiest bus routes in the entire city just seems a waste of time really. If this diversion to Easter Road is correct as Gramo states, then Easter Road will be a total nightmare for traffic, it's already bad as it is!

Like you say, I like trams as a mode of transport, and I also agree that Melbourne is a good example of where they work well, along with the train system there. I have been in Melbourne for about 5 months of my life and never stepped foot on a bus the entire time!

The fact is, anyone living remotely outside the city centre is going to have to get a bus into the city to use the trams, on a route where they can have the choice of about 10 buses already!

I was for the trams at first but now I don't think they are a good idea really. I'm just glad I am not in Edinburgh right now to be inconvenienced by all the roadworks.

[Phil D. Rolls]

In three years time, there's going to be a lot of people showing their other face, when they realise they actually like the trams.

I wonder how many of the anti-tram squad are bus users. I reckon the objectors are mostly the type who expect a motorway from their door to their place of work. That only they are allowed to use.

Like it or not, the city cannot sustain the number of cars that people want to bring into it. You just have to try and get around at festival time to have an idea about what will happen if we keep pandering to the internal combustion engine.

Face it folks - if you rely on a car to get around it is going to get more difficult and more expensive. The time to act is now.

[Mikey_1875]

In three years time, there's going to be a lot of people showing their other face, when they realise they actually like the trams.

I wonder how many of the anti-tram squad are bus users. I reckon the objectors are mostly the type who expect a motorway from their door to their place of work. That only they are allowed to use.



I dont think that's the case at all. Most people who object to trams imo do want to do something about reducing traffic etc and would be willing to change to public transport. they just don't think that trams is the best way about it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I dont think that's the case at all. Most people who object to trams imo do want to do something about reducing traffic etc and would be willing to change to public transport. they just don't think that trams is the best way about it.

Well, if they want to reduce congestion and pollution, it might be worth considering a vehicle that runs on electricity and not petrol.

People had a chance to reduce congestion a couple of years back, and they voted against it. Seems to me everyone likes to think green till it means sacrificing their own arrangements and comfort.

[--------]

I think the point is an INTEGRATED public transport system, incorporating buses, trams, and railways is a good thing.

The problem is that a system like that doesn't suit people who are determined to take the car wherever they go.

I have no problem with park-and-ride, provided the 'park' bit is secure and safe, and I don't get back to find my car up on bricks.

And when the railway link between Airdrie and Bathgate is restored, I suspect I might not need to bring my car into town at all, which will pelase me mightily.

We've allowed the private car to destroy our public transport over the past 50 years, and now we're beginning to realise that the cost is too high - not just environmentally, but socially too. Once this system's in place, I suspect it'll be a success, and then the question will arise - do we extend it to other parts of the city?

[Mibbes Aye]

For all those that criticise the introduction of the trams and the routes chosen - it is based on a projected build of 20,000 houses around Leith and 250,000 square metres of office space at Edinburgh Park in the next ten years. How would you address the transport issues raised by that?

[sg7nil]

Well, if they want to reduce congestion and pollution, it might be worth considering a vehicle that runs on electricity and not petrol.

People had a chance to reduce congestion a couple of years back, and they voted against it. Seems to me everyone likes to think green till it means sacrificing their own arrangements and comfort.

I don't remember them talking about reducing congestion... just charging folk for the priviledge (definitely not the same thing).

People who use cars would have continued to do so even if it was costing them and the method of charging was blatantly unfair with the external and internal charging cordons... folk would have found rat runs to use to avoid paying as much and that would have possibly even increased congestion and miles driven in the city as people chased around and took less direct routes.

There is a real alternative to road congestion.. but trams are not it. They occupy the same space as the cars and buses, and we are only getting one route (so it's hardly a "network" that will benefit the majority of city travellers). An underground system would have been ideal for a city our size. Fed by some surface and some underground lines from the outskirts of the city and with a short underground loop that went under the city centre. Unfortunately our city fathers are too short sighted to see that putting in a tram line that only mimicks the already most used and efficient bus route that we have is madness. :brickwall

[Phil D. Rolls]

I don't remember them talking about reducing congestion... just charging folk for the priviledge (definitely not the same thing).

People who use cars would have continued to do so even if it was costing them and the method of charging was blatantly unfair with the external and internal charging cordons... folk would have found rat runs to use to avoid paying as much and that would have possibly even increased congestion and miles driven in the city as people chased around and took less direct routes.

There is a real alternative to road congestion.. but trams are not it. They occupy the same space as the cars and buses, and we are only getting one route (so it's hardly a "network" that will benefit the majority of city travellers). An underground system would have been ideal for a city our size. Fed by some surface and some underground lines from the outskirts of the city and with a short underground loop that went under the city centre. Unfortunately our city fathers are too short sighted to see that putting in a tram line that only mimicks the already most used and efficient bus route that we have is madness. :brickwall

It's hard to tell what would have happened. Evidence elsewhere, such as in London would suggest that people are less likely to drive within the cordon.

Trams and buses accommodate more people than cars. A bus, for example is the length of five cars. Assuming full occupancy of the cars, the bus transports 100 people, whilst the cars transport say 25 people.

From what I've seen in Holland, people much prefer using a tram to taking their car. Also, you only have to look at the success of park and ride sites, and train stops here, to see that people would rather not have the hassle of driving in the city.

Although pro-tram, I have to say that much of the debate and argument could have been prevented by TIE being more pro-active in selling the benefits. It seems to me that they are a firm of engineers without communication skills.

[Steve-O]

For all those that criticise the introduction of the trams and the routes chosen - it is based on a projected build of 20,000 houses around Leith and 250,000 square metres of office space at Edinburgh Park in the next ten years. How would you address the transport issues raised by that?

Personally, I am not saying the existing tracks should not be built where they are, I am saying there should be other tracks catering for other areas of the city. If you don't live on the tram route, which is a HUGE amount of people, then nothing has actually changed by getting trams in.

[Steve-O]

It's hard to tell what would have happened. Evidence elsewhere, such as in London would suggest that people are less likely to drive within the cordon.

Trams and buses accommodate more people than cars. A bus, for example is the length of five cars. Assuming full occupancy of the cars, the bus transports 100 people, whilst the cars transport say 25 people.

From what I've seen in Holland, people much prefer using a tram to taking their car. Also, you only have to look at the success of park and ride sites, and train stops here, to see that people would rather not have the hassle of driving in the city.

Although pro-tram, I have to say that much of the debate and argument could have been prevented by TIE being more pro-active in selling the benefits. It seems to me that they are a firm of engineers without communication skills.

An example of why the trams would be no good to me -

(a) when I had a car and drove to work it took me 30 minutes at peak time, and 20 at other times, the distance being approx 7 miles. This was from the Portobello area to Scottish Gas at Granton.

(b) when I had to get the bus it took me 80 minutes (2 buses as no direct service) pretty much at all times unless I was really lucky and stepped onto my 2nd bus straight after getting off the first.

When the trams go in, there will be absolutely no difference whatsoever to the above scenario and I am sure there must be a great many people around the city in a similar position - i.e. the trams will not make a difference.

[Phil D. Rolls]

An example of why the trams would be no good to me -

(a) when I had a car and drove to work it took me 30 minutes at peak time, and 20 at other times, the distance being approx 7 miles. This was from the Portobello area to Scottish Gas at Granton.

(b) when I had to get the bus it took me 80 minutes (2 buses as no direct service) pretty much at all times unless I was really lucky and stepped onto my 2nd bus straight after getting off the first.

When the trams go in, there will be absolutely no difference whatsoever to the above scenario and I am sure there must be a great many people around the city in a similar position - i.e. the trams will not make a difference.

As it stands with congestion, your journey times would probably double nowadays. Consider the number of people who are going to live along the shore line (if they ever sell the flats).

The answer has to be to clear the roads of cars and provide some form of mass transport. The golden age of motoring has passed.

There will be a difference when the trams go in, as they will have priority over other road users, allowing passengers to complete the bulk of their journey quickly. Granton will be served by the trams by the way.

[-Jonesy-]

Trams have worked brilliantly in lots of cities. The amsterdam transit system is brilliant.

However this city is far too small to require something like this and simply, two trams lines running from the gyle into town and town down to leith is not going to help 3/4 of the population of this city at all.

[Onceinawhile]

in antwerp there is minimal congestion and its a city thats roughly the same size of edinburgh.

we have a metro thats fast and efficient and serves the whole city
trams that do the same

but you know what really reduces the congestion? people cycle everywhere taking cars off the road. thats what edinburgh should be looking to do, make it easy and acceptable to cycle places.

it would
1. reduce congestion
2. reduce carbon emissions
3. help cut the scourge of obesity in the country

[-Jonesy-]

in antwerp there is minimal congestion and its a city thats roughly the same size of edinburgh.

we have a metro thats fast and efficient and serves the whole city
trams that do the same

but you know what really reduces the congestion? people cycle everywhere taking cars off the road. thats what edinburgh should be looking to do, make it easy and acceptable to cycle places.

it would
1. reduce congestion
2. reduce carbon emissions
3. help cut the scourge of obesity in the country

we'll just roll out those 7 hills then

[Onceinawhile]

i meant in and around the city centre rather than rolling out the hills. i think you may have known that as well!

i admire your wideness:greengrin

[Iain G]

Well, if they want to reduce congestion and pollution, it might be worth considering a vehicle that runs on electricity and not petrol.

People had a chance to reduce congestion a couple of years back, and they voted against it. Seems to me everyone likes to think green till it means sacrificing their own arrangements and comfort.

The problem is FR the congestion charging for Edinburgh would have hardly scratched the surface of reducing people using their cars, it isn't a deterant at 2 quid its another tax on the car users, if they were serious about it make it 20 quid a day, that will make people think differently, and it was cart before horse as it usually is in Edinburgh, offer the people the alternative first (suburban rail, more park and rides, tram NETWORK etc) then think congestion charging. People need alternatives, shoving everyone onto the LRT bus service isn't exactly appealing...

Most folks actually probably like the idea of trams, if we put in a network that replaced the smelly LRT bus and was actually well thought out then it could work very well in Edinburgh, its the current scheme and lack of joined up transport planning that pisses me off so much about this whole thing, making it feel like another stop gap measure...its like this mountgrange plan for Caltongate, no one is disputting that something needs to be done with the site, just disputting that the first plan put forward is not necessarily the right one!!

The cooncil should be making big decisions, they're not they are pussyfooting around and trying to pander to everyone at the moment as usual, pick a plan, drive it through to completion and stick with it!!!

[Iain G]

For all those that criticise the introduction of the trams and the routes chosen - it is based on a projected build of 20,000 houses around Leith and 250,000 square metres of office space at Edinburgh Park in the next ten years. How would you address the transport issues raised by that?

Train :agree:

[Mibbes Aye]

Train :agree:

Wouldn't building train lines and the infrastructure for them at the hubs be prohibitively expensive? I imagine for stages of the route you would be talking about using existing line but that won't have capacity to accommodate the levels of usage anticipated as necessary, especially at peak times I would think :dunno:

[gringojoe]

Wouldn't building train lines and the infrastructure for them at the hubs be prohibitively expensive? I imagine for stages of the route you would be talking about using existing line but that won't have capacity to accommodate the levels of usage anticipated as necessary, especially at peak times I would think :dunno:


The answer is obvious we need flying cars like the Jetsons free up the roads in nae time.

[Mibbes Aye]

The answer is obvious we need flying cars like the Jetsons free up the roads in nae time.

:greengrin I'm halfway there. My fuel costs are already sky-high :agree:

[IberianHibernian]

in antwerp there is minimal congestion and its a city thats roughly the same size of edinburgh.

we have a metro thats fast and efficient and serves the whole city
trams that do the same

but you know what really reduces the congestion? people cycle everywhere taking cars off the road. thats what edinburgh should be looking to do, make it easy and acceptable to cycle places.

it would
1. reduce congestion
2. reduce carbon emissions
3. help cut the scourge of obesity in the countryDespite the hills and weather I agree more should be done to encourage cycling . More folk would use cycle tracks ( old train routes mainly ) in Edinburgh and Glasgow if they were safer (often dark and full of broken glass ) . I know people who cycle to work everey day in Glasgow and they use the roads instead of cycle tracks because of vandalism etc. I was in Seville recently and as in several other Spanish cities they`ve copied Holland, Denmark etc and started system with free or very cheap cycle hire and it seems to be working well . They also have a new tram ( excellent though still only about a mile ) and metro network is also starting . City centre is much better with only trams, bikes and pedestrians for tourists and residents . Public transport in Edinburgh and rest of UK is very poor compared with rest of Europe but until people start to realize how good life can be without cars can`t see that changing .

[Iain G]

Wouldn't building train lines and the infrastructure for them at the hubs be prohibitively expensive? I imagine for stages of the route you would be talking about using existing line but that won't have capacity to accommodate the levels of usage anticipated as necessary, especially at peak times I would think :dunno:

What and 500million (and rising) for one glorified trollybus line isn't expensive??

My main issue is that IMHO no one has actually stepped back and looked at the whole picture for the development and growth of Edinburgh and come up with a joined up masterplan for the city, covering transport, infrastructure, housing etc, it just seems so piecemeal that it frustrates me, bits and pieces happening all over the shop with no real rhyme of reason as to why certain things are allowed to be developed and others refused!?!?

No one seems to want to step back and look at the big picture of how Edinburgh is to develop and grow and how best to tackle issues such as transport, housing, schools etc, which is detrimental to the success of Edinburgh as a city...and god it frustrates me :grr:

[IberianHibernian]

What and 500million (and rising) for one glorified trollybus line isn't expensive??

My main issue is that IMHO no one has actually stepped back and looked at the whole picture for the development and growth of Edinburgh and come up with a joined up masterplan for the city, covering transport, infrastructure, housing etc, it just seems so piecemeal that it frustrates me, bits and pieces happening all over the shop with no real rhyme of reason as to why certain things are allowed to be developed and others refused!?!?

No one seems to want to step back and look at the big picture of how Edinburgh is to develop and grow and how best to tackle issues such as transport, housing, schools etc, which is detrimental to the success of Edinburgh as a city...and god it frustrates me :grr:Agree entirely that more thought needs to go into planning transport in general , problem is that this delays progress even more which leads to even higher prices . Too much time seems to be spent squabbling while prices rise and then nothing is done or a second rate compromise ( eg Borders rail project with single track and not as far as major Border towns ) is offered probably in the hope that it won`t be accepted by public or politicians . Because Edinburgh is such a beautiful city a lot less effort into making it better (cleaner and better transport for example ) seems to be made than in other cities . I can`t think of any other city similar to Edinburgh in Europe which has a public transport system which is limited to buses .

[Dashing Bob S]

Yes, it would be great if we had the money to build an integrated transit system but we don't so it's going to have to be done incrementally. But we have to start now because there will never be an ideal time.

Dublin now has two lines on the LUAS. It's great if you live on these lines (Connolly Station to Tallagh takes 22 instead of 45 mins) but means little if you don't. The lines don't even meet. But nonetheless they are a joy to ride and are busy and popular compared to the buses, which are always empty except for a few pensioners, students and jakeys.

I'm looking forward to the trams coming on line in Edinburgh, although it won't benefit me much personally as things stand. They do increase the amenity of the city in general and as FR stated, people will come onside once they are up, as happened in Dublin, Manchester and Croydon.

[sg7nil]

Yes, it would be great if we had the money to build an integrated transit system but we don't so it's going to have to be done incrementally. But we have to start now because there will never be an ideal time.

Dublin now has two lines on the LUAS. It's great if you live on these lines (Connolly Station to Tallagh takes 22 instead of 45 mins) but means little if you don't. The lines don't even meet. But nonetheless they are a joy to ride and are busy and popular compared to the buses, which are always empty except for a few pensioners, students and jakeys.

I'm looking forward to the trams coming on line in Edinburgh, although it won't benefit me much personally as things stand. They do increase the amenity of the city in general and as FR stated, people will come onside once they are up, as happened in Dublin, Manchester and Croydon.

Isn't that the point here... the tram line (singular) that's being implemented in Edinburgh is basically just mirroring the existing 22 bus route which runs far from empty all day. In fact it's a shock if you can ever get a seat on one most of the time... in short, the 22 bus is a roaring success story... so why change it!?

Our buses are popular now, not like they were in Dublin. I just dont see that the benefits of Edinburgh having a tram(s) is cost justified!

[Dashing Bob S]

Isn't that the point here... the tram line (singular) that's being implemented in Edinburgh is basically just mirroring the existing 22 bus route which runs far from empty all day. In fact it's a shock if you can ever get a seat on one most of the time... in short, the 22 bus is a roaring success story... so why change it!?

Our buses are popular now, not like they were in Dublin. I just dont see that the benefits of Edinburgh having a tram(s) is cost justified!

But the road traffic is going to continue to get worse and the buses will become steadily less popular. I'm not convinced they are particularly popular - people are just clinging to them as they are change aversive.

[sg7nil]

But the road traffic is going to continue to get worse and the buses will become steadily less popular. I'm not convinced they are particularly popular - people are just clinging to them as they are change aversive.

I've stated before, and at the risk of repeating myself too often, I do not believe that Tram(s) are the answer as they will (IMHO) only take up more space that other traffic currently needs.

An underground would have been my preferred option, but I'd have also gone for some form of "monorail type" raised system. These work in other cities, so I see no reason (apart from aesthetics - as they would look incongruous in the older areas of town) why this could not be the solution for many routes.

[Iain G]

I've stated before, and at the risk of repeating myself too often, I do not believe that Tram(s) are the answer as they will (IMHO) only take up more space that other traffic currently needs.

An underground would have been my preferred option, but I'd have also gone for some form of "monorail type" raised system. These work in other cities, so I see no reason (apart from aesthetics - as they would look incongruous in the older areas of town) why this could not be the solution for many routes.

Such as Ogdenville, North Haverbrook and Brockway... :greengrin

[Iain G]

But the road traffic is going to continue to get worse and the buses will become steadily less popular. I'm not convinced they are particularly popular - people are just clinging to them as they are change aversive.

Bob, I just don't think trams were the first step to take, a super fast and regular rail link from central Edinburgh to the Airport via Edinburgh Park would have been first on my list, get people off the roads first and reduce volume, then open the Suburban rail which will, if run properly, cheap enough and reagular service will also take traffic from the roads, expand the park and ride schemes and only THEN you look at Trams and use them to replace buses on routes (minimises the disruption/congestion too as people actually have non-road going alternatives to being on a bus or car!)...

No big enough joined up thinking for this whole scheme IMHO...