Gordon Brown

[Betty Boop]

Is Gordon Brown and New Labour a busted flush? After their hammering in the local elections, and the race for London Mayor on a knife edge, unlikely they will win a General Election. God forbid we end up with the Tories in Government, worrying times! :bitchy:

[Tomsk]

Is Gordon Brown and New Labour a busted flush? After their hammering in the local elections, and the race for London Mayor on a knife edge, unlikely they will win a General Election. God forbid we end up with the Tories in Government, worrying times! :bitchy:


We are sleepwalking into a Tory government. Hang on to your hats -- it's gonna get very blawy. :bitchy:

[McSwanky]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/i-hate-every-last-one-of-you%2c-admits-brown-20080502920/ (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/i-hate-every-last-one-of-you%2c-admits-brown-20080502920/)

[Betty Boop]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/i-hate-every-last-one-of-you%2c-admits-brown-20080502920/ (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/i-hate-every-last-one-of-you%2c-admits-brown-20080502920/)
:greengrin

[steakbake]

We are sleepwalking into a Tory government. Hang on to your hats -- it's gonna get very blawy. :bitchy:

I think change is needed. Not too pleased at the idea of a UK tory government but it might make some people up here think a little bit about our own position.

I wouldn't say that putting all the eggs into a Labour basketcase is necessarily the best idea. Seems a bit anti-democratic to suggest that the only option is a labour government or bust. Surely that is no way to live!!

[Tomsk]

I think change is needed. Not too pleased at the idea of a UK tory government but it might make some people up here think a little bit about our own position.

I wouldn't say that putting all the eggs into a Labour basketcase is necessarily the best idea. Seems a bit anti-democratic to suggest that the only option is a labour government or bust. Surely that is no way to live!!


If I'm reading you right, a Tory government may be just the sort of catalyst you would welcome to force the independence issue in Scotland.

[GreenandGlaikit]

Tories : utter gits. Unthinkable that folk still actually vote fir these tossers. Goldfish memories. :agree:

Welcome tae repossesions, mass unemployment, civil unrest, national health collapsing, essential services privatised (ie sold cheap tae their City pals), double figure Mortgage rates. etc. etc. if they ever return tae power.


.....and Boris 'tosspot' Johnson might be London Mayor . Oh, dear. Oh, dearie dear. :ill:

[steakbake]

If I'm reading you right, a Tory government may be just the sort of catalyst you would welcome to force the independence issue in Scotland.

Im not sure I would use the word welcome when connected to the Tories, but I think it might focus attention on the issue that the UK by definition and structure has electoral and democratic failings no matter who wins. Do we just accept these failings as a fact of UK life or do we seek democracy as we seem to be trying to import by force to other countries?

As it stands at the moment, if Labour are 2nd in the popular vote in England but hang on to power through Scottish and Welsh MPs, how is that fair to England? If Tories are 1st in England, but are nowhere to be seen in Scotland and 3rd in Wales, how is that fair to Scotland and Wales? And dont get me started on Northern Ireland hahaha

I just dont know Mr T, what the answer is.

But its not very healthy position to think that the only option in the world is a Labour Government.

A one party state, no matter how bad that one party is, they are still better than the other shower.

Its a very British political solution but that doesn't make it the best!

[Part/Time Supporter]

Tories : utter gits. Unthinkable that folk still actually vote fir these tossers. Goldfish memories. :agree:

Welcome tae repossesions, mass unemployment, civil unrest, national health collapsing, essential services privatised (ie sold cheap tae their City pals), double figure Mortgage rates. etc. etc. if they ever return tae power.


.....and Boris 'tosspot' Johnson might be London Mayor . Oh, dear. Oh, dearie dear. :ill:

Better to have real Tories than fake Tories.

:hnet:

[GreenandGlaikit]

Better to have real Tories than fake Tories.

:hnet:

Quite a daft statement there PTS. The current Government (though it deserves criticism) is nothing like the vindictive pig's abortion which we were stuck wi fir 18 fe*cking years.

[McSwanky]

Quite a daft statement there PTS. The current Government (though it deserves criticism) is nothing like the vindictive pig's abortion which we were stuck wi fir 18 fe*cking years.

They must have done someone some good as the majority of British folks kept voting for them :duck:

[GreenandGlaikit]

They must have done someone some good as the majority of British folks kept voting for them :duck:

True. George Soros adored them. :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's an interesting situation. For Labour politicians, their only chance of power would be via Holyrood. However, to get power there, they would have to work a Scottish ticket.

This in turn would surely alienate them further from the middle English vote they have been relying on.

[steakbake]

An interesting point.

Personally I hope (and now increasingly believe) the union to be finished.

However, regardless of my own personal views, I am not sure what New Labour had planned for devolution should they find themselves out of power in Westminster. And now, of course, out of power at Holyrood.

I would imagine they would suddenly go quiet about "collision courses" and "stirring up discontent with the Union" if Scottish Labour in Holyrood found they had to work with a Conservative Westminster government.

The phrase "rock and hard place" comes to mind.

It couldn't happen to a nicer bunch, unless of course you count the Tories!

[Tomsk]

They must have done someone some good as the majority of British folks kept voting for them :duck:

A majority yes, but never more than 44%.

[Corstorphine Hibby]

Tories : utter gits. Unthinkable that folk still actually vote fir these tossers. Goldfish memories. :agree:

Welcome tae repossesions, mass unemployment, civil unrest, national health collapsing, essential services privatised (ie sold cheap tae their City pals), double figure Mortgage rates. etc. etc. if they ever return tae power.


.....and Boris 'tosspot' Johnson might be London Mayor . Oh, dear. Oh, dearie dear. :ill:


It's gonna happen so get it right up ye.

By the way the tories have at least still claim to be right of centre unlike er 'labour' who have sold most of their left wing ideology down the swanny to get in bed with middle England.

[Pete]

The sooner Gordon Brown is out of the picture the better.

Simply because I can't stand that thing he does with his chin when he sucks in air between words. We can't have a PM that resembles a goldfish whenever he starts speaking.

[PC Stamp]

Quite a daft statement there PTS. The current Government (though it deserves criticism) is nothing like the vindictive pig's abortion which we were stuck wi fir 18 fe*cking years.

But it's in serious danger of heading that way.

[Betty Boop]

Looks like Boris is London Mayor! :greengrin

[GreenandGlaikit]

Looks like Boris is London Mayor! :greengrin

If so, suppose thats the equivalent o' Hartlepool electing the Man in the Monkey suit. :sick:

[GreenandGlaikit]

[/COLOR]


It's gonna happen so get it right up ye.

By the way the tories have at least still claim to be right of centre unlike er 'labour' who have sold most of their left wing ideology down the swanny to get in bed with middle England.


Nae thanks. Fawning and fore-lock tugging tae Toffs is something best avoided. :thumbsup:

[marinello59]

Looks like Boris is London Mayor! :greengrin


First class. About time we had some professional buffoons running things rather than the amateur buffoons we presently have. They'll still cock things up but they will do it with so much more style.:thumbsup:

[The cooler king]

The quicker these robbing b*trds are ousted out of government the better.

Reversed 1000 years of History by turning our country into a multi-cultural piss-pot and ostricising the very population whose forefathers defended this empire with their lives.

Allowing companies in the UK to denationalise their UK workforce for cheap eastern 'Shelf-stackers' is a travesty out of all proportions.

Its gonna be hard to clean up this piss-pot but the 'Flush' is on the way thank God.

[--------]

The quicker these robbing b*trds are ousted out of government the better.

Reversed 1000 years of History by turning our country into a multi-cultural piss-pot and ostricising the very population whose forefathers defended this empire with their lives.

Allowing companies in the UK to denationalise their UK workforce for cheap eastern 'Shelf-stackers' is a travesty out of all proportions.

Its gonna be hard to clean up this piss-pot but the 'Flush' is on the way thank God.


Your open-top car is at the door and the brownshirts await your instructions, Mein Fuhrer. Seig Heil! :cool2:

Seriously - could someone please tell me ONE REAL DIFFERENCE between New Labour and the Tories and the Lib Dems? They're ALL centre parties, all in bed with big business, all ever-so-tolerant of minorities superficially but authoritarian in reality and they're ALL the same except that they each have their very own individual corrupt and dishonourable links with big business.

Which is why nutters like Boris (who as a right-wing populist needs watching, IMO) get elected London mayor, and why 1 in 20 voters in the London mayora election voted BNP.

We have General Melchett and Darling leading us all to perdition, with Slimer Cameron just itching to get his turn to shove his snout in the trough, and NORTH of the Border, we have Alec 'Wide-Boy' Salmond, Wendy the Wide-Mouthed Frog, Nicol 'The Android' Stephenson (do I here people asking, 'Who he?') and Annabelle 'I'm-An-Awfully-Nice-Person-Really-Even-If-I-Am-A-Tory' Goldie.

Have you met your MSP? I've met mine. No comment. And my MP? The ex-Stalinist chairman and Leader of the officially-certified Buckfast-Boozing Dyslexically-Challenged Greatest Football Supporters In The World. No wonder we're all giving up on politics.

[lyonhibs]

The quicker these robbing b*trds are ousted out of government the better.

Reversed 1000 years of History by turning our country into a multi-cultural piss-pot and ostricising the very population whose forefathers defended this empire with their lives.

Allowing companies in the UK to denationalise their UK workforce for cheap eastern 'Shelf-stackers' is a travesty out of all proportions.

Its gonna be hard to clean up this piss-pot but the 'Flush' is on the way thank God.


You make me laugh.

And be simulataneously very happy that I don't share you're horrendously blinkered views.

It's viewpoints akin to yours that our forefathers fought so bravely to defeat.

[LiverpoolHibs]

The quicker these robbing b*trds are ousted out of government the better.

Reversed 1000 years of History by turning our country into a multi-cultural piss-pot and ostricising the very population whose forefathers defended this empire with their lives.

Allowing companies in the UK to denationalise their UK workforce for cheap eastern 'Shelf-stackers' is a travesty out of all proportions.

Its gonna be hard to clean up this piss-pot but the 'Flush' is on the way thank God.
Fishing?


And as for Johnson (**** this 'Boris' pish) become Mayor, it genuinely makes me despair for humanity.

[Bunter]

And my MP? The ex-Stalinist chairman and Leader of the officially-certified Buckfast-Boozing Dyslexically-Challenged Greatest Football Supporters In The World. No wonder we're all giving up on politics.
Who could you possibly mean, Doddie? Very cryptic. :wink:

[Loobrush]

Would a tory government really be that different to what we have now? :confused:

[The cooler king]

You make me laugh.

And be simulataneously very happy that I don't share you're horrendously blinkered views.

It's viewpoints akin to yours that our forefathers fought so bravely to defeat.

Glad u find me funny, i find u rather dull and predicatable.....:yawn:

My forefathers fought to stave off an invasion of murderring b*trds........
Guess what?

[marinello59]

Glad u find me funny, i find u rather dull and predicatable.....:yawn:

My forefathers fought to stave off an invasion of murderring b*trds........
Guess what?


My forefathers sacrificed everything to end fascism. Glad we have something in common...................I hope. The sooner we rid the country of racist erseholes the better.

[Mibbes Aye]

Would a tory government really be that different to what we have now? :confused:

I think it's very easy to compare New Labour and the Conservatives and with good reason.

Nevertheless there's a bunch of big social policy stuff Labour has done, in between the breaking international law by invading Iraq and selling honours and all that, that just wouldn't have happened under Cameron, or Howard, or Duncan Smith, or Hague or Major.

The likes of the minimum wage, tax credits, the New Deal and free nursery care for example.

Whether you support those policies or not, they are a lot more interventionist than a Conservative government would be IMO.

[The cooler king]

My forefathers sacrificed everything to end fascism. Glad we have something in common...................I hope. The sooner we rid the country of racist erseholes the better.

That'll be the ones that put scarfs over their faces and blow up children in buses?...

[GreenandGlaikit]

Would a tory government really be that different to what we have now? :confused:


It's funny how things return. The exact same thing wis being said in 1979, when MP's votes were being canvassed re the 'Confidence Debate'. Result: Thatcher! :eek: :******:

[The cooler king]

It's funny how things return. The exact same thing wis being said in 1979, when MP's votes were being canvassed re the 'Confidence Debate'. Result: Thatcher! :eek: :******:

The tories took over the country at a time when it was falling into 3rd world poverty driven by a labour manifesto of bending over to the trade unions in support of thier votes. It took hardline policies and a leader with balls to put this country back on its feet with hard line policies that required high interest rates and inflation but it worked in the long run. Tony blair inherited the an affluent uk. **** knows what the next incumbents are ging to be left with as labour has set this country into a multi cultural piss pot with an unsustainable economy. Thanks tony thanks gordon now get to **** the pair of you.

[GreenandGlaikit]

The tories took over the country at a time when it was falling into 3rd world poverty driven by a labour manifesto of bending over to the trade unions in support of thier votes. It took hardline policies and a leader with balls to put this country back on its feet with hard line policies that required high interest rates and inflation but it worked in the long run. Tony blair inherited the an affluent uk. **** knows what the next incumbents are ging to be left with as labour has set this country into a multi cultural piss pot with an unsustainable economy. Thanks tony thanks gordon now get to **** the pair of you.

:faf:

Stick tae being a Troll. Understanding mainstream politics (ie., non-BNP orientated) usually requires a higher economic and historical perspective than is available within the Daily Mail political opinion columns. :thumbsup:

[lyonhibs]

:faf:

Stick tae being a Troll. Understanding mainstream politics (ie., non-BNP orientated) usually requires a higher economic and historical perspective than is available within the Daily Mail political opinion columns. :thumbsup:

Thank god for you G+G, I though people were starting to take him seriously.

Phew!!!!

I understand Richard Littlejohn's column is up for grabs CK - there's a grade A opportunity for you to actually get paid to peddle your views.

Mercifully, Hibs.net seems far too rational to give them much oxygen.

[LiverpoolHibs]

:faf::faf::faf:
This ****er thinks I read the daily mail......:faf::faf::faf:
It certainly seems like you do. Almost parody-like...

[JimBHibees]

:faf::faf::faf:
This ****er thinks I read the daily mail......:faf::faf::faf:

Mein Kampf :confused:

[lyonhibs]

It certainly seems like you do. Almost parody-like...

Except parodies can occasionally be funny.................

[LiverpoolHibs]

Except parodies can occasionally be funny.................
Ha, indeed...

[Dashing Bob S]

He's a bad leader of a party that has sold its soul. There's no point in keeping a lame duck in power just t keep the Tories out.

Shame he's a poor PM as he was one of the best Chancellors we had and probably the only thing half-decent about New Labour.

[The cooler king]

He's a bad leader of a party that has sold its soul. There's no point in keeping a lame duck in power just t keep the Tories out.

Shame he's a poor PM as he was one of the best Chancellors we had and probably the only thing half-decent about New Labour.

Good chancellor?

Riding on the crest of a wave of the policies the Tories brought in to bring the country out of the third world gutter you mean?

If he was so good explain why the country and global economics from his parteners in crime across the ocean have totally ****ed up?

A useless ****in prick, no personality who got lucky.

[GreenandGlaikit]

Good chancellor?

Riding on the crest of a wave of the policies the Tories brought in to bring the country out of the third world gutter you mean?

If he was so good explain why the country and global economics from his parteners in crime across the ocean have totally ****ed up?

A useless ****in prick, no personality who got lucky.


Yer every pronouncement reveals how bankrupt, revisionist, and basically nonsensical yer political and economic views are.

[lyonhibs]

I wonder in The Cooler King has every actually been to a REAL third world country???

Methinks doing so might make him rethink his definition of what "Third World poverty/healthcare" ACTUALLY means

We have it pretty freakin' sweet in the UK by anyone's standards - anyone, that is, who has a global perspective on these things.

[Betty Boop]

I wonder in The Cooler King has every actually been to a REAL third world country???

Methinks doing so might make him rethink his definition of what "Third World poverty/healthcare" ACTUALLY means

We have it pretty freakin' sweet in the UK by anyone's standards - anyone, that is, who has a global perspective on these things.:agree: So true!

[sKipper]

Even if the Tories do get back in, and Cameron aint no Thatcher, we are now relatively well protected from the worst of their policies with our Parliament which wasn't yet in place during the Thatcher era.

[Expecting Rain]

Your open-top car is at the door and the brownshirts await your instructions, Mein Fuhrer. Seig Heil! :cool2:

Seriously - could someone please tell me ONE REAL DIFFERENCE between New Labour and the Tories and the Lib Dems? They're ALL centre parties, all in bed with big business, all ever-so-tolerant of minorities superficially but authoritarian in reality and they're ALL the same except that they each have their very own individual corrupt and dishonourable links with big business.

Which is why nutters like Boris (who as a right-wing populist needs watching, IMO) get elected London mayor, and why 1 in 20 voters in the London mayora election voted BNP.

We have General Melchett and Darling leading us all to perdition, with Slimer Cameron just itching to get his turn to shove his snout in the trough, and NORTH of the Border, we have Alec 'Wide-Boy' Salmond, Wendy the Wide-Mouthed Frog, Nicol 'The Android' Stephenson (do I here people asking, 'Who he?') and Annabelle 'I'm-An-Awfully-Nice-Person-Really-Even-If-I-Am-A-Tory' Goldie.

Have you met your MSP? I've met mine. No comment. And my MP? The ex-Stalinist chairman and Leader of the officially-certified Buckfast-Boozing Dyslexically-Challenged Greatest Football Supporters In The World. No wonder we're all giving up on politics.

Doddie, it is three bald men fighting over a comb!

[--------]

Doddie, it is three bald men fighting over a comb!

I know that, churchy.

But that wee rant made me feel ever so much better. :devil:

[hibsdaft]

Riding on the crest of a wave of the policies the Tories brought in to bring the country out of the third world gutter you mean?

If he was so good explain why the country and global economics from his parteners in crime across the ocean have totally ****ed up?

theres a certain beauty in your soapbox rants.

ignoring the party politics though: both parties have been in on the global neo-liberal economic revolution of the last thirty years that has seen the increasinlgy unrestricted capitalist system.

the UK economy and a section of society has done well out of slashing union rights, cutting taxes, cutting back the state and running down our public services and our infrastructure and our assets as a discount rate (BT, BA, 1 million council homes etc) - we've seen inward investment and growth despite but this is only because we did it first. we were the most attractive destination for capital because we let it do what it wanted and we were the first doing this. now china, india, ex-soviet block etc have been following our model and we're seeing the results: the outsourcing of jobs and the rocketing global inflation as a new super-rich and middle class develop there. picture, inevitably, isn't so rosy now.

the UK and US deepened the changes which had led to the situation to try and keep ahead and one prominent side to this was the credit bubble which is now bursting and which has been a critical factor in keeping this unrestricted capitalist model ahead, and afloat. another has been the imagration and with it the cheap source of labour you're always moaning about: the biggest supporters of current immigration policy are the thatcherite CBI.

we have a run-down infrastructure, we're up to our eyes in debt, we are left grovelling for inward investment, we have no competetive advantage and we are now (so we're told) slaves to this system: 'we can't to this or that because it would frighten investers'.

what got us here: neoliberal thatcherism brought about first by the tories of the eighties and then seen through to its natural concusion by New Labour.

theres no point blaming any individual for mismanaging the economy in this era, the economy is not really managed by gordon brown or anyone, its increasingly left to manage itself.

compare this to the continually maligned German economy which still has a massive manufacturing base kept strong by investment in technology, good infrastructure and public services, better wages, better working rights, no culture of personal debt and what appears to be a more content and stable society. their level of unemployment and GDP is comparable to the UK's.

[Dashing Bob S]

I wonder in The Cooler King has every actually been to a REAL third world country???

Methinks doing so might make him rethink his definition of what "Third World poverty/healthcare" ACTUALLY means

We have it pretty freakin' sweet in the UK by anyone's standards - anyone, that is, who has a global perspective on these things.

I think he's on a wind-up. His original posts were very different to what they've degenerated into. Nobody can be quite so stupid, glib and superficial.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think he's on a wind-up. His original posts were very different to what they've degenerated into. Nobody can be quite so stupid, glib and superficial.

Ahem...... (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44202000/jpg/_44202044_stevie_frail_gall.jpg)

[Phil D. Rolls]

Even if the Tories do get back in, and Cameron aint no Thatcher, we are now relatively well protected from the worst of their policies with our Parliament which wasn't yet in place during the Thatcher era.

I know who Alex Salmond wants to win.

[Crossgates Hibs]

Good chancellor?

Riding on the crest of a wave of the policies the Tories brought in to bring the country out of the third world gutter you mean?

If he was so good explain why the country and global economics from his parteners in crime across the ocean have totally ****ed up?

A useless ****in prick, no personality who got lucky.


Agree 100% the man is a tube of the highest order. Now all the encouragement to be in debt is going to come crashing down on us due to the fraud in the housing market and liar loans. The balloon still wants people in debt and keeps pushing shared equity schemes trying to force people to a life of debt total idiot of the highest order. :furious:

[Betty Boop]

Gordon Brown gets ripped up for erse paper every week on Prime Ministers Question time by David Cameron. I despair and 42 days detention don't get me started! :bitchy:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Gordon Brown gets ripped up for erse paper every week on Prime Ministers Question time by David Cameron. I despair and 42 days detention don't get me started! :bitchy:
Which has just gone through thanks to those ********s the DUP. :grr:

[Zeberdee]

I have not got a problem with the 42 days. If you've not done anything wrong then why worry about it.

But at least it ensures time to investigate matters that happen in this world that probably most of us will never know of. There's probably more terrorists than we think.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I have not got a problem with the 42 days. If you've not done anything wrong then why worry about it.

But at least it ensures time to investigate matters that happen in this world that probably most of us will never know of. There's probably more terrorists than we think.
How exactly do you plan to ensure that no-one innocent will be held? That's sort of the whole point of it.

[Pretty Boy]

I have not got a problem with the 42 days. If you've not done anything wrong then why worry about it.

But at least it ensures time to investigate matters that happen in this world that probably most of us will never know of. There's probably more terrorists than we think.

Absolute nonsense, The guilford four were forced into full confessions and they were only held for 7 days without charge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_Four

Aggresive interogation can force people to do a lot of things, 42 days with no legal assistance, deprived of sunlight, food, water etc for long periods? I'd say just about anything to get out of that situation.

As for the terrorist threat, yes it is real but thanks to the actions of ours and the US government and not because there has been a flood of terrorists just appeared from thin air.

[Pretty Boy]

Good chancellor?

Riding on the crest of a wave of the policies the Tories brought in to bring the country out of the third world gutter you mean?

If he was so good explain why the country and global economics from his parteners in crime across the ocean have totally ****ed up?

A useless ****in prick, no personality who got lucky.


:thumbsup: Another clasice reactionary rant, keep them coming. You just might split my sides by the end of the month.

[GhostofBolivar]

I have not got a problem with the 42 days. If you've not done anything wrong then why worry about it.

But at least it ensures time to investigate matters that happen in this world that probably most of us will never know of. There's probably more terrorists than we think.

The threat to this nation's liberty and security comes not from terrorism, but from laws like this.

[lyonhibs]

The threat to this nation's liberty and security comes not from terrorism, but from laws like this.

Hmmm, I'd suggest saying that to the families of any of the victims of the London bombings.

I think their points of view would be a refreshing shock to the system. Let's be clear about this - the 42 day principle is to be applied in extreme circumstances where national security is at threat and their is the potential for grave loss of life. Now obvisiouly these definitions are somewhat subjective, but I've (just about) got enough faith left (though it's wearing thin) in this government to apply it judiciously. It's not to be applied willy-nilly. I must admit, I adopted a sort of "it's away over there" approach to religious fundamentalism and its terrorist "branch" of activities until Madrid and London. Not now, and I think that IF the government have reasonable suspicion that a individual is playing a role - as a individual or as part of a so called "cell" - that threatens to see British citizens get blown to pieces (and remember there was another failed tube bombing, and a few cases of houses being raided and bombs/ bomb making equipment being found, raids carried out ON THE BACK of intelligence), then the 42 days stipulation - particularly with the complexities involved with collecting and collating evidence pertaining to sometimes nation - or world - wide organisations and plots - is no great harm to our civil liberites IF APPLIED PROPERLY

[GhostofBolivar]

Hmmm, I'd suggest saying that to the families of any of the victims of the London bombings.

I think their points of view would be a refreshing shock to the system. Let's be clear about this - the 42 day principle is to be applied in extreme circumstances where national security is at threat and their is the potential for grave loss of life.

Right. Can you give me an example of a terrorist threat that is not serious? Where there isn't potential for grave loss of life?

And what about the clause on coroners inquests?


Yes, coroners. In future, a minister will be able to interrupt an inquest to kick out the jury, dismiss the coroner and declare the proceedings secret. Why? One reason might be that the soldier, say, lacked body armour, bullets or boots and the coroner was expressing naive disapproval. You can't have a jury hearing a case like that. They might talk. It wouldn't be in the public interest for such matters to get out. Oh no, it would damage confidence in the Government.

Oh, and if the new coroner "misbehaves", he or she can be "revoked" as well. "Misbehaviour" isn't defined but we can assume it would be misbehaviour to criticise ministers or the ministry or suggest the death was somehow avoidable or unnecessary or possibly even undesirable.

Quite a change, that.


You might ask Rose Gentle what she thinks of that. Might be a refreshing perspective.

Not to mention that this law allows politicians to say "This person should stay in jail."

Why?

"Because we say so."

And this is a good thing?

[lyonhibs]

Right. Can you give me an example of a terrorist threat that is not serious? Where there isn't potential for grave loss of life?

And what about the clause on coroners inquests?



You might ask Rose Gentle what she thinks of that. Might be a refreshing perspective.

Not to mention that this law allows politicians to say "This person should stay in jail."

Why?

"Because we say so."

And this is a good thing?

I'm going to hold my hands up and say this "coroners inquest" clause had passed me by.

Care to explain??

Cheers

Just to say I think Gordon Brown - if not the Labour Party per se (just yet) - IS a busted flush as regards being the PM, but not over this issue. The 10p tax rate issue did it for me. Or more exactly, as if the original decision wasn't bad enough, the decision to "borrow" £2.7 billion from a as yet unexplained Nevernever land to finance a massive, yet totally temporary concession.

Only 1 thing I can't stomach in politics more than a decisive, blethering idiot, and that is a INdecisive blethering idiot.

[Pretty Boy]

Hmmm, I'd suggest saying that to the families of any of the victims of the London bombings.

I think their points of view would be a refreshing shock to the system. Let's be clear about this - the 42 day principle is to be applied in extreme circumstances where national security is at threat and their is the potential for grave loss of life. Now obvisiouly these definitions are somewhat subjective, but I've (just about) got enough faith left (though it's wearing thin) in this government to apply it judiciously. It's not to be applied willy-nilly. I must admit, I adopted a sort of "it's away over there" approach to religious fundamentalism and its terrorist "branch" of activities until Madrid and London. Not now, and I think that IF the government have reasonable suspicion that a individual is playing a role - as a individual or as part of a so called "cell" - that threatens to see British citizens get blown to pieces (and remember there was another failed tube bombing, and a few cases of houses being raided and bombs/ bomb making equipment being found, raids carried out ON THE BACK of intelligence), then the 42 days stipulation - particularly with the complexities involved with collecting and collating evidence pertaining to sometimes nation - or world - wide organisations and plots - is no great harm to our civil liberites IF APPLIED PROPERLY


The part in bold is the key issue though. How many people were held without charge after the London bombings and then released with no charge ever being brought. A fair few. Guantanamo Bay has detainees who have been there 6 years without a charge being brought. Mr Menezes was shot dead, his crime? Wearing a thick jacket. I, for one, do not trust the British police force to use such powerful legislation properly and that is where my objection to this law comes from.

[lyonhibs]

The part in bold is the key issue though. How many people were held without charge after the London bombings and then released with no charge ever being brought. A fair few. Guantanamo Bay has detainees who have been there 6 years without a charge being brought. Mr Menezes was shot dead, his crime? Wearing a thick jacket. I, for one, do not trust the British police force to use such powerful legislation properly and that is where my objection to this law comes from.

Guantanomo Bay is a example of this genre of leglislation gone woefully wrong. A total bare-faced shame to any nation pertaining to be liberal..

Difference being I do have faith in the British Police on the ground (tho those higher up the command chain and their political masters is a far more dubious matter) . The de Menezes was a gruesome, tragic accident, but the actual police man that pulled the trigger wasn't to blame IMO.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Guantanomo Bay is a example of this genre of leglislation gone woefully wrong. A total bare-faced shame to any nation pertaining to be liberal..

Difference being I do have faith in the British Police on the ground (tho those higher up the command chain and their political masters is a far more dubious matter) . The de Menezes was a gruesome, tragic accident, but the actual police man that pulled the trigger wasn't to blame IMO.
Completely unimportant, it was a systemic failure; evincing the fact that the system is deeply flawed.

[GhostofBolivar]

I'm going to hold my hands up and say this "coroners inquest" clause had passed me by.

Care to explain??

Cheers

42 days is the big, overriding issue in this anti-terrorism bill. But there are a number of other clauses designed to circumvent civil liberites and the rule of law. Parliament debated 16 clauses and 60 amendments on Wednesday. In 3 hours.

One of these allows the government to halt a coroner's inquest, replace the coroner and hold the proceedings in secret if the government deems the inquest to be an issue of national security. Dr David Kelly. Gordon Gentle. We'd never hear about the rulings in these cases with this law.

It effectively allows politicians to gag coroners as and when they feel like it.

[Pretty Boy]

Guantanomo Bay is a example of this genre of leglislation gone woefully wrong. A total bare-faced shame to any nation pertaining to be liberal..

Difference being I do have faith in the British Police on the ground (tho those higher up the command chain and their political masters is a far more dubious matter) . The de Menezes was a gruesome, tragic accident, but the actual police man that pulled the trigger wasn't to blame IMO.

100% agree the policeman who fired the bullet wasn't to blame. However the legislation that allows the police their shoot to kill policy in such situations was apparently safeguarded against such tragic incidents. This incident alone showed the safeguard was obviously ineffective. I am also sure when it comes to firing a gun to kill someone there will be far more thought goes into it than when it comes to arresting someone and holding without charge for 42 days. There have been many people held under the terrorism act for absolutely nothing, the released with no apology and no charge.

[JimBHibees]

The part in bold is the key issue though. How many people were held without charge after the London bombings and then released with no charge ever being brought. A fair few. Guantanamo Bay has detainees who have been there 6 years without a charge being brought. Mr Menezes was shot dead, his crime? Wearing a thick jacket. I, for one, do not trust the British police force to use such powerful legislation properly and that is where my objection to this law comes from.

Subsequent evidence proved that he was wearing a denim jacket, did not vault any barrier and strolled through the gate and picked up a Metro paper before he was gunned down on the train. The spin put out by the Police in aftermatch of the murder was atrocious including the tampering of a picture of De Menezes to look similar to a real terrorist suspect. So no I am not confident these laws would be applied properly. When top legal people state that in their experience the case for this law hasnt been made they should be listened to rather than by a government desperate to be seen to be tough on basically anything they care to mention. Maybe if they didnt lie us into going into illegal wars their word may be believed.

[JimBHibees]

100% agree the policeman who fired the bullet wasn't to blame. However the legislation that allows the police their shoot to kill policy in such situations was apparently safeguarded against such tragic incidents. This incident alone showed the safeguard was obviously ineffective. I am also sure when it comes to firing a gun to kill someone there will be far more thought goes into it than when it comes to arresting someone and holding without charge for 42 days. There have been many people held under the terrorism act for absolutely nothing, the released with no apology and no charge.

including an 80 year old Labour party member who had the temerity to heckle the then Foreign Secretary. These laws are wide open to abuse.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Labour finish fifth in Henley behind the Greens and the BNP...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7476703.stm

I wonder who the last Labour candidate to lose their deposit was.