Immigration: the great lie.

[The cooler king]

Major broadsheets leading with stories tomorrow on the condemnation of immigration and the great lie that it has benefitted the UK economy.

No **** Sherlock.

:brickwall

[Mike777]

Allowing Bulgaira into the EU was very positive Thinking......

[Betty Boop]

Major broadsheets leading with stories tomorrow on the condemnation of immigration and the great lie that it has benefitted the UK economy.

No **** Sherlock.

:brickwallThe Daily Mail and the Express, what a surprise! :bitchy:

[marinello59]

Major broadsheets leading with stories tomorrow on the condemnation of immigration and the great lie that it has benefitted the UK economy.

No **** Sherlock.

:brickwall

So the non-story is that two right wing rags continue their scaremongering campaign.

[Pete]

So the non-story is that two right wing rags continue their scaremongering campaign.

"Rags" quote statistics...yes, real statistics, and actually display how people feel.

The vast majority of people don't wan't this. If the justifaction is a gap in the labour market then why not get the unemployed to do the jobs that noboby wants?

We're scared of being labeled right-wing, that's why.

[CropleyWasGod]

"Rags" quote statistics...yes, real statistics, and actually display how people feel.

The vast majority of people don't wan't this. If the justifaction is a gap in the labour market then why not get the unemployed to do the jobs that noboby wants?

We're scared of being labeled right-wing, that's why.

At last I get to say this..... source? Nobody has asked me whether I want it or not.

And, as a numbers man, I know that statistics can be made to say anything.

[Onceinawhile]

"Rags" quote statistics...yes, real statistics, and actually display how people feel.

The vast majority of people don't wan't this. If the justifaction is a gap in the labour market then why not get the unemployed to do the jobs that noboby wants?

We're scared of being labeled right-wing, that's why.

because british people are unwilling to accept hard labour for relatively low wages whereas immigrants arent.

[Winston Ingram]

"Rags" quote statistics...yes, real statistics, and actually display how people feel.

The vast majority of people don't wan't this. If the justifaction is a gap in the labour market then why not get the unemployed to do the jobs that noboby wants?

We're scared of being labeled right-wing, that's why.

Yes we'll just 'get' the unemployed to do these jobs. It's that easy:wink:

The facts are that we do need immigrants. The average age of people in this country is 54 and birth rates in this country are hardly going up. If we don't get younger immigrants then retirement will be a thing of the past

[lyonhibs]

because british people are unwilling to accept hard labour for relatively low wages whereas immigrants arent.


Absolutely. I've just done a 12,000 word dissertation on this very topic - focusing on the new right wing favourite threat, the Eastern European immigrants. They work harder, in jobs that need doing but that Brits won't do, they plug gaps in labour markets that our own aging population can't. And for the hard of understanding out there, the government cannot "stop them coming over" and nor would it be wise to. If a person holding a EU passport wants to enter the UK they have every right to - free movement of services, labour and capital is practically the entire bloody point of the EU. As for this myth that they are all here on the benefit scam, this is total hogwash. They are not permitted access to the full range of benfits/tax credit until they have been in employment continously for 12 months (by which time a lot of EU migrants have left anyway) and they contribute more to the economy than natives earning similar low incomes because of this.

The list of reasons why the likes of Richard Littlejohn, the Daily Mail and the Daily Express need lined up and shot (somehwat extreme, but you get my point) is almost endless. This mindless fear of "the others" is such a closed minded island mentality that some idiots actually revel in - did anyone see the Dispatches/Panorama exposé on Immigration a couple of nights back?? Blinkered, knuckle dragging racism is alive and well in this country. If so called "British" unemployed were willing to make themselves as attractive potential employees (in terms of hours they are willing to work/productivity/etc etc etc) as immigrants do, would they still be sat on their moany arse complaining about "those bloody immigrants, coming over here and stealing our jobs". No, they'd be in a job, but secretly they're not overly bothered about busting a gut to get a job, because they know they'll always have this cushty Social Security system to fall back on, wheras Poles/Lithuanians/Pakistanis etc etc haven't got this inherently lazy mindset.

Rant over - but there's plenty more where that came from

GGTTH

[Phil D. Rolls]

Had to laugh the other week, my auntie was complaining that Poles had stolen her seat at church. They were saying the same thing about irish people 150 years ago, and her name is McCarthy.

Not to mention the fact that jesus would have told her not to be so selfish.

Racists and logic just don't go.

[Pretty Boy]

An interesting facts on immigration:

The 2001 census showed that 3.5 million immigrants had arrived in Britain however since 1991 3 million had also left the country.

There are 19 million refugees in the world, only 380 000 make it to Europe.

Figures show that the majority of people believe immigrants make up 20% of the British population, THE ACTUAL FIGURE IS 4 %.

Only 7.9% of the population belongs to an ethnic minority group and only 238 000 children are mixed race.


That should certainly have Sun, Express and Mail readers running off to get "facts" on how we are "swamped" and immigrants are stealing our jobs.

[lyonhibs]

An interesting facts on immigration:

The 2001 census showed that 3.5 million immigrants had arrived in Britain however since 1991 3 million had also left the country.

There are 19 million refugees in the world, only 380 000 make it to Europe.

Figures show that the majority of people believe immigrants make up 20% of the British population, THE ACTUAL FIGURE IS 4 %.

Only 7.9% of the population belongs to an ethnic minority group and only 238 000 children are mixed race.


That should certainly have Sun, Express and Mail readers running off to get "facts" on how we are "swamped" and immigrants are stealing our jobs.

Indeed, and for all this chat about us being "swamped" with immigrants, how many readers of the above "newspapers" will be aware that Britain only became a net "benefactor" of migration (i.e. more people coming in than going out) in the mid 1980's.

Before that, there was more of "us" going to "their" countries than there was of "them" coming to our "green and pleasant" land.

I'm fairly sure, historically, "we've" still got a lead on "them" (the nasty outsiders) in terms of numbers.

Also, what is it to be British these days??

White, 2.4 children, nuclear family, football at 3pm on a Saturday, Roast Chicken on a Sunday, women staying at home to have their beloved Hubbies tea on the table at 5.30 pm????

I think not (but shhhhhhh don't tell the racists)

[CropleyWasGod]

I have a wry smile to myself when I hear the term "immigrant", and it's not in amusement.

As Steve Earle says "all of us are immigrants". Yup, even the Scots. It's just a matter of where in history you draw that line.

Also... ask any old Leither, like my dad, and they will tell you that there have been Poles and other Eastern Europeans in Leith for centuries. They only stopped coming for a relatively short time at the end of WWII. The recent "influx" is just a restarting of an old process.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm sure all those concerned about immigration will join me in condemning the cultural rape of countries such as Spain by the influx of thousands of Brits who have settled there, yet are unwilling to learn the language and who regularly refer to the indigenous population as "foreigners".

As Christopher Brookmyre said, "the English destroy cultures by pretending they aren't there". (Unlike the Scots, who have no idea what culture is).

[The cooler king]

An interesting facts on immigration:

The 2001 census showed that 3.5 million immigrants had arrived in Britain however since 1991 3 million had also left the country.

There are 19 million refugees in the world, only 380 000 make it to Europe.

Figures show that the majority of people believe immigrants make up 20% of the British population, THE ACTUAL FIGURE IS 4 %.

Only 7.9% of the population belongs to an ethnic minority group and only 238 000 children are mixed race.


That should certainly have Sun, Express and Mail readers running off to get "facts" on how we are "swamped" and immigrants are stealing our jobs.
The sunday mail prints a laod of tosh (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=400309&in_page_id=1770) anaw i see.....and that was in 2006.

And more tosh..... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=483225&in_page_id=1770) from 2007

An BBC tosh (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7007163.stm)

Must be a conspiracy to convince that its allright tae bust yer gut so's yeh can be raped of tax to fund this travesty......

[Pretty Boy]

The sunday mail prints a laod of tosh (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=400309&in_page_id=1770) anaw i see.....and that was in 2006.

And more tosh..... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=483225&in_page_id=1770) from 2007

An BBC tosh (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7007163.stm)

Must be a conspiracy to convince that its allright tae bust yer gut so's yeh can be raped of tax to fund this travesty......

I wouldn't take a word of what the Daily Mail or Mail on Sunday say as gospel. As for the BBC report the key word is SOME. There are plenty British people who are just as quick to rip of the benefit system, every Pole is not here to rip us off, in fact the vast majority are here to work hard and earn a decent living, whilst paying tax to our government to fund our services.

The key point is that immigration is nowhere near as widespread in the UK as people think and any Scottish person who complains about immigration should look to countries like Australia where the local people where raped of their land by British settlers and treated as foreigners in their own country, the same could be said of the Indian sub continent and almost any other colony of the British empire.

Your name isn't Ricahrd Littlejohn or Nick Griffin is it?

[The cooler king]

I wouldn't take a word of what the Daily Mail or Mail on Sunday say as gospel. As for the BBC report the key word is SOME. There are plenty British people who are just as quick to rip of the benefit system, every Pole is not here to rip us off, in fact the vast majority are here to work hard and earn a decent living, whilst paying tax to our government to fund our services.

The key point is that immigration is nowhere near as widespread in the UK as people think and any Scottish person who complains about immigration should look to countries like Australia where the local people where raped of their land by British settlers and treated as foreigners in their own country, the same could be said of the Indian sub continent and almost any other colony of the British empire.

Your name isn't Ricahrd Littlejohn or Nick Griffin is it?

Naw. Its joe ****in public.
the tax payer whose getting his bread-butter raped.

[Pretty Boy]

Naw. Its joe ****in public.
the tax payer whose getting his bread-butter raped.

So your suggesting immigrants who come here and work (which the majority do) don't pay tax?

No one would argue that illegal immigrants who are conning the system should be dealt with but if people are coming to Britain and doing jobs that need doing and paying their way then as far as i can see they are entitled to the same services and resources that any other taxpayer is.

[Mibbes Aye]

Naw. Its joe ****in public.
the tax payer whose getting his bread-butter raped.

Back in October 2007, the evidence of an economic impact study into immigration was placed before a Select Committee of Parliament.

It found that overall, immigrants were net fiscal contributors to the economy (i.e. they paid more in taxes than they took out in public services).

It also found that on the whole this contribution was greater than that of people born here.

So if you were born here, cooler king, you're putting in less to this country than immigrants are.

Pull your socks up, eh?

[Brizo]

What I find most surprising is that there are so many people in my hood who are apparently unable to find work and yet Poles and other Eastern Europeans seem to arrive and very quickly find good quality jobs in construction , shops , on trains and buses.

It cant be argued that theyre illegals or are paid under the national minmum wage as major contractors , retailers and transport companys just cant get away with that kind of jiggery pokery.

It can however be argued that we have an indigenous jakey underclass ( think the Jeremy Kyle show / Shannon Matthews family / back seat of the bus weasel faced,dope smoking.chipmunk techno listening youths) who are quite simply workshy state dependent ****wits who are just not interested in working.

If anything the influx of Polish / Eastern European immigrants has highlighted the fact that jobs are available to those who want to work. Its also highlighted the downside of a benefits system which has allowed our Scots born and bred jakey underclass to flourish.

[lyonhibs]

Back in October 2007, the evidence of an economic impact study into immigration was placed before a Select Committee of Parliament.

It found that overall, immigrants were net fiscal contributors to the economy (i.e. they paid more in taxes than they took out in public services).

It also found that on the whole this contribution was greater than that of people born here.

So if you were born here, cooler king, you're putting in less to this country than immigrants are.

Pull your socks up, eh?

And I've read every last sodding page of it - thanks dissertation.

The benefits system needs tightened up no doubt about it, but what are the odds there are a decent number of immigrants who don't claim what they are entitled to, simply because they don't know they are entitled to them - coming in from a far flung country with a minimal grasp of the Englsih language, I'd imagine the complex British benefits system could be a pretty daunting proposition as regards filling out forms etc.

And as mentioned, on a per head basis, recent Immigrants contribute more to, and extract less from, the British economy than comparable british natives or members of previous immigrant flows.

Sorry about that Littlejohn and his Daily Mail scaremongerers

[Hiber-nation]

Absolutely. I've just done a 12,000 word dissertation on this very topic - focusing on the new right wing favourite threat, the Eastern European immigrants. They work harder, in jobs that need doing but that Brits won't do, they plug gaps in labour markets that our own aging population can't. And for the hard of understanding out there, the government cannot "stop them coming over" and nor would it be wise to. If a person holding a EU passport wants to enter the UK they have every right to - free movement of services, labour and capital is practically the entire bloody point of the EU. As for this myth that they are all here on the benefit scam, this is total hogwash. They are not permitted access to the full range of benfits/tax credit until they have been in employment continously for 12 months (by which time a lot of EU migrants have left anyway) and they contribute more to the economy than natives earning similar low incomes because of this.

The list of reasons why the likes of Richard Littlejohn, the Daily Mail and the Daily Express need lined up and shot (somehwat extreme, but you get my point) is almost endless. This mindless fear of "the others" is such a closed minded island mentality that some idiots actually revel in - did anyone see the Dispatches/Panorama exposé on Immigration a couple of nights back?? Blinkered, knuckle dragging racism is alive and well in this country. If so called "British" unemployed were willing to make themselves as attractive potential employees (in terms of hours they are willing to work/productivity/etc etc etc) as immigrants do, would they still be sat on their moany arse complaining about "those bloody immigrants, coming over here and stealing our jobs". No, they'd be in a job, but secretly they're not overly bothered about busting a gut to get a job, because they know they'll always have this cushty Social Security system to fall back on, wheras Poles/Lithuanians/Pakistanis etc etc haven't got this inherently lazy mindset.

Rant over - but there's plenty more where that came from

GGTTH

Cracking post young man :top marks

[thebakerboy]

Good to see most Hibees are still generous forward thinking people and not right wing facists like Cooler please go away and bury your heads in some one elses sand.

[lyonhibs]

Did anyone watch that programme on BBC 1 last night - "Meet the Immigrants" it was called.
All about people who leave their family and friends, pay a lot of money to come over here. Now at this stage, having affected their legal entry (if they are from the EU) into the UK, Littlejohn and his ******** mates would have you believe they all scoot off down the DSS, jump in front of honest hardworking English (aka white) people for jobs and then go out and beat up a old granny (rising crine rates and increasing immingration are always spoken about in certain "newspapers" as if there was a empirically certifiable causal link between the 2 - which of course there isn't)

Of course what this programme revelaed was that British employers prefer their hard working attitude, cheery disposition and all around demeanour than the equivalent Englsih worker. One hotel owner said she got a Englsih applicant to a job who didn't give 2 hoots about the job, but had to make a certain number of phone calls to employers each week in order to receive her benefits. She lived ten miles away from the hotel. The job was taken by a Lithuanian lassie that gave up everything - boyfriend, house etc etc to travel hundreds of miles to work. Having read the official reports - i.e. not the Daily ****ing Mail, I can assure you this type of slovenly behaviour from UK natives with regards to entry level jobs is widespread - who's raping "Joe Public" of his bread and butter here then??
The program then showed her at work, and this was in the very definition of middle England, and a couple of old, "landed gentry" types - the very type - making generalisations here of course - that you might expect to have some snooty "go back from whence you came" attitude, said to her "You're very welcome here, and don't listen to those that say you aren't"

Music to my ears so it was.
If you enjoy a Indian curry/Chinese stir fry from a takeaway, you've benefitted from immigration.
If you've stayed in practically any UK hotel, or enjoyed a meal at practically any restaurant, you've more than likely benfitted from immigration, which benefits us in many more ways than just economic. There's only so many portions of bangers and mash and Sunday roast you can have before native day-to-day British cuisine becomes a little, shall we say, "bland"

There was also a bit about Calais, and those people willing to risk their lives in an attempt to get to the UK that have no legal right to do so - I beleive the term is "illegal asylum seekers" Now, do you think they are likely to have paid extortionate fees to travel in usually gruesome conditions just for ****s and giggles??
Nope, me neither, and whilst I am not in favour of this "Open Borders to all" right wing nightmare you always hear them banging on about, for those that moan and groan about the tax implications of immigration, have you ANY idea how much MORE it would cost the taxpayer if the government was to run a "build the walls and police every inch of coastline" style immigration system???

Put it this way, it would be above the current - entirely debatable and - IMO - entirely wrong on a per capita basis (certainly for recent EU immigrants) "tax burden" that immigrants present to the British public.

As I say, if you look at many minimum wage/close to minimum wage job in construction/catering/hospitality (e.g. all the potentially rather messy jobs, but without which these sectors would be out on their arse) the only willing and decent workers that British employers can find come from outwith the UK, and if you think that's migrants fault, then kindly head back to the 18th century (B.C.) where such viewpoints might be anything other than offensive and ridiculous to decent and open minded people.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Did anyone watch that programme on BBC 1 last night - I missed the start of it so its title escapes me, but it was about Immigration. All about people who leave their family and friends, pay a lot of money to come over here. Now at this stage, having affected their legal entry (if they are from the EU) into the UK, Littlejohn and his ******** mates would have you believe they all scoot off down the DSS, jump in front of honest hardworking English (aka white) people for jobs and then go out and beat up a old granny (rising crine rates and increasing immingration are always spoken about in certain "newspapers" as if there was a empirically certifiable causal link between the 2 - which of course there isn't)

Of course what this programme revelaed was that British employers prefer their hard working attitude, cheery disposition and all around demeanour than the equivalent Englsih worker. One hotel owner said she got a Englsih applicant to a job who didn't give 2 hoots about the job, but had to make a certain number of phone calls to employers each week in order to receive her benefits. She lived ten miles away from the hotel. The job was taken by a Lithuanian lassie that gave up everything - boyfriend, house etc etc to travel hundreds of miles to work. Having read the official reports - i.e. not the Daily ****ing Mail, I can assure you this type of slovenly behaviour from UK natives with regards to entry level jobs is widespread - who's raping "Joe Public" of his bread and butter here then??
The program then showed her at work, and this was in the very definition of middle England, and a couple of old, "landed gentry" types - the very type - making generalisations here of course - that you might expect to have some snooty "go back from whence you came" attitude, said to her "You're very welcome here, and don't listen to those that say you aren't"

Music to my ears so it was.
If you enjoy a Indian curry/Chinese stir fry from a takeaway, you've benefitted from immigration.
If you've stayed in practically any UK hotel, or enjoyed a meal at practically any restaurant, you've more than likely benfitted from immigration, which benefits us in many more ways than just economic. There's only so many portions of bangers and mash and Sunday roast you can have before native day-to-day British cuisine becomes a little, shall we say, "bland"

There was also a bit about Calais, and those people willing to risk their lives in an attempt to get to the UK that have no legal right to do so - I beleive the term is "illegal asylum seekers" Now, do you think they are likely to have paid extortionate fees to travel in usually gruesome conditions just for ****s and giggles??
Nope, me neither, and whilst I am not in favour of this "Open Borders to all" right wing nightmare you always hear them banging on about, for those that moan and groan about the tax implications of immigration, have you ANY idea how much MORE it would cost the taxpayer if the government was to run a "build the walls and police every inch of coastline" style immigration system???

Put it this way, it would be above the current - entirely debatable and - IMO - entirely wrong on a per capita basis (certainly for recent EU immigrants) "tax burden" that immigrants present to the British public.

As I say, if you look at many minimum wage/close to minimum wage job in construction/catering/hospitality (e.g. all the potentially rather messy jobs, but without which these sectors would be out on their arse) the only willing and decent workers that British employers can find come from outwith the UK, and if you think that's migrants fault, then kindly head back to the 18th century (B.C.) where such viewpoints might be anything other than offensive and ridiculous to decent and open minded people.
:applause:

Very well said mate.

[Dashing Bob S]

Naw. Its joe ****in public.
the tax payer whose getting his bread-butter raped.

Has somebody broken into your email account, CK? Whether you agree or disagree with them, your posts are generally well-thought out. This is babbling nonsense taken straight from a semi-literate tabloid designed solely to wind up morons.

[alex plode]

Absolutely. As for this myth that they are all here on the benefit scam, this is total hogwash. They are not permitted access to the full range of benfits/tax credit until they have been in employment continously for 12 months m


That's true but nevertheless you wouldn't deny the absence of child benefit in eastern europe has made this country a very attractive destination for migrant workers.
It's only recently, councils across the UK are realising just how much money in total has been paid to children living overseas.

[Mibbes Aye]

That's true but nevertheless you wouldn't deny the absence of child benefit in eastern europe has made this country a very attractive destination for migrant workers.
It's only recently, councils across the UK are realising just how much money in total has been paid to children living overseas.

I would be curious to see how you intend proving that assertion.

[Tompo]

Good to see most Hibees are still generous forward thinking people and not right wing facists like Cooler please go away and bury your heads in some one elses sand.

"Facist" is a word that gets bandied about far too much and a bit of an unfair accusation to level at him.

I'm all for the imigrants though, i'd rather have them paying tax than the lazy unemployed locals sponging off it.

[Toaods]

People worry too much about immigration into the UK.

Put the shoe on the other foot.....................Migration.

I'm up for selling up and living like a Lord in some 'up-and-coming' downtrodden Soviet cast-off. Anyone fancy it?

:greengrin

[alex plode]

I would be curious to see how you intend proving that assertion.


Hansard records 32,000 child benefit payments made to Eastern Europe (mainly Poland) in 2007. The Telegraph equates this as £28million per year travelling overseas.
Was this figure in the Oct. '07 impact study ?

No other EU country is as "welcoming" or pays benefits as readily as ours. The fact there are no restrictions on migrant workers in the UK coupled with the fact dependant family back home will be paid UK state benefit on receipt of a birth certificate seems both wrong and a very attractive incentive to come here (imho)

[CropleyWasGod]

Hansard records 32,000 child benefit payments made to Eastern Europe (mainly Poland) in 2007. The Telegraph equates this as £28million per year travelling overseas.
Was this figure in the Oct. '07 impact study ?

No other EU country is as "welcoming" or pays benefits as readily as ours. The fact there are no restrictions on migrant workers in the UK coupled with the fact dependant family back home will be paid UK state benefit on receipt of a birth certificate seems both wrong and a very attractive incentive to come here (imho)

So, that means there are at least 32,000 related adults working here. At, say, £20k pa each..... say £600m....the tax and NI take on that (rough calculation £240m)will dwarf the benefits paid out. Add to that the contribution these folk make towards their employers, and the knock-on effect on profits and tax....

The CB seems like a decent investment to me.

[Mibbes Aye]

Hansard records 32,000 child benefit payments made to Eastern Europe (mainly Poland) in 2007. The Telegraph equates this as £28million per year travelling overseas.
Was this figure in the Oct. '07 impact study ?

No other EU country is as "welcoming" or pays benefits as readily as ours. The fact there are no restrictions on migrant workers in the UK coupled with the fact dependant family back home will be paid UK state benefit on receipt of a birth certificate seems both wrong and a very attractive incentive to come here (imho)

Citing the take-up figure isn't really proof. All it proves is the level of take-up.

Your assertion was that child benefit was what was attracting migrant workers. You can't supply any proof for that can you?

[alex plode]

So, that means there are at least 32,000 related adults working here.
Not necessarily.

At, say, £20k pa each
Maybe, but exploitation sees many working for much less.

say £600m....the tax and NI take on that (rough calculation £240m)will dwarf the benefits paid out. Add to that the contribution these folk make towards their employers, and the knock-on effect on profits and tax....
No need to pay NI in UK if work contract signed in country of origin..self-employed and cash-in-hand contracts make figures not so straightforward.



The CB seems like a decent investment to me.

Child benefit should be paid out to anyone bringing up a child in the UK - not somewhere else.

[CropleyWasGod]

Could argue all night about the minutiae of my (admittedly rough and ready)calculations. Still seems to me like the amount of CB we pay out is small change compared to what we get back. And, if it is (like you say) an attraction to migrants, then it's a very cost-effective one.

[alex plode]

Citing the take-up figure isn't really proof. All it proves is the level of take-up.

Your assertion was that child benefit was what was attracting migrant workers. You can't supply any proof for that can you?


On the assumption workers are here to make money - the significant take up of benefit shows that the system in the UK is going to be a factor in deciding whether to come here or not - especially when then the state benefits at home are minimal, non-existant or means tested.

I also asked if the £28 million figure was in the October '07 impact study you quoted earlier ?

[Mibbes Aye]

On the assumption workers are here to make money - the significant take up of benefit shows that the system in the UK is going to be a factor in deciding whether to come here or not - especially when then the state benefits at home are minimal, non-existant or means tested.

I also asked if the £28 million figure was in the October '07 impact study you quoted earlier ?

How does it do that? I don't think you can prove that.

All it shows is the level of benefit take-up. You can't extrapolate that to say that child benefit plays a major part in encouraging migrant workers to come here without a great deal more evidence to back up your case.

And I don't think you have that evidence.

The £28 million figure that the Telegraph claims isn't referred to in the report. The report aggregates all public expenditure.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Spoke to a teacher from Dalry primary school last year, who reported a positive impact immigration has had. The average free school meals for the entire school is 50%, her class (P1) had free meals at 10%. Any coincidence that a the majority of her pupils were from immigrant families?

The people who are suffering because of immigration are the third generation dole scroungers, who have never worked, and hope to never have to work. All of a sudden, their excuse that there is no work is shown to be a lie.

Personally, I much prefer to be served at McDonald's etc by an immigrant than some scottish kid. Experience has shown that they are surly, rude and (frankly) lazy.

The biggest hoot I have heard so far though, is people complaining that our native beggars are being squeezed out of the market by Eastern European Big Issue Sellers. Begging is now OK, providing your "our beggar".

[alex plode]

How does it do that? I don't think you can prove that.

[QUOTE]
All it shows is the level of benefit take-up. You can't extrapolate that to say that child benefit plays a major part in encouraging migrant workers to come here without a great deal more evidence to back up your case.

And I don't think you have that evidence.

Yes you can.
You have to be very naive to think that available financial incentives don't encourage immigration.
And I dont think you're naive.

The £28 million figure that the Telegraph claims isn't referred to in the report. The report aggregates all public expenditure

Then how do you know it's included - what figure is assumed for benefit payouts or additional support facilities for schools & healthcare institutions ?

On what evidence did is say immigrants are net contributors ?

The truth is ; mass immigration into the UK is a relatively new phenonena.

Consequently, there is no evidence to suggest recent immigration generates large scale economic benefit to the UK - altho' new labour constantly tell you otherwise.

[Phil D. Rolls]

[quote=Mibbes Aye...;1576410]How does it do that? I don't think you can prove that.


Yes you can.
You have to be very naive to think that available financial incentives don't encourage immigration.
And I dont think you're naive.


Then how do you know it's included - what figure is assumed for benefit payouts or additional support facilities for schools & healthcare institutions ?

On what evidence did is say immigrants are net contributors ?

The truth is ; mass immigration into the UK is a relatively new phenonena.

Consequently, there is no evidence to suggest recent immigration generates large scale economic benefit to the UK - altho' new labour constantly tell you otherwise.

Don't think that's quite right, each generation seems to have a new generation of immigrants. Take the last century or so:

Irish
Italians
Central Europeans
Asians
Afro Caribbeans

etc etc

Go further back you've got angles picts danes etc.

It would be a bit of a laugh if some of the people saying "it's our country" checked their own family tree. They remind me of those people who think they've got first dibs on the sunbeds because they arrived at the hotel a day before you.

[Mibbes Aye]

[quote=alex plode...;1576410]How does it do that? I don't think you can prove that.


Yes you can.
You have to be very naive to think that available financial incentives don't encourage immigration.
And I dont think you're naive.


Then how do you know it's included - what figure is assumed for benefit payouts or additional support facilities for schools & healthcare institutions ?

On what evidence did is say immigrants are net contributors ?

The truth is ; mass immigration into the UK is a relatively new phenonena.

Consequently, there is no evidence to suggest recent immigration generates large scale economic benefit to the UK - altho' new labour constantly tell you otherwise.


The report refers to all benefits paid out. For what it's worth isn't the £28 million figure one the Telegraph have come up with by taking the number of claimants and multiplying it by the maximum amount that can be claimed?

And of course it refers to claims for children not resident in the UK. Which means a saving on money that would have to be spent on education, healthcare etc. if they were resident here.

But to get back to the point, you can't prove your assertion that child benefit plays a major part in attracting migrant workers can you?

(Saying "It's true" or "It's naive to think otherwise" doesn't count as proof incidentally)

[alex plode]

But to get back to the point, you can't prove your assertion that child benefit plays a major part in attracting migrant workers can you?

You're labouring a point now at the expense of the real issue but I'll indulge you.

The proof you're looking for, would need to be in the form of a census on why economic migrants come to the UK.
Work of course is reason No. 1 but it's not the only reason - you'd need to evaluate other factors such as wages; quality of life; free access to health and education and yes,SUPPLIMENTARY BENEFITS in the big picture. As far as I'm aware, such a detailed study doesn't exist.

Consider this though - 17% of immigrants to the UK do NOT come here primarily to work. They come to "join other family members".
Do you really think in evaluating which country to seek employment, foreign nationals don't take into account Welfare Benefits or their family's rights to residency ?

The Mail links posted earlier mentions Polish families who.."said they heard about availablity of welfare by word of mouth back home or from Job Agencies in Poland"...maybe you'd discount that as evidence because it's the Mail; as you'd discount instructions for claiming benefits appearing in Polish Newspapers ?

To get to the main point, you: along with many others on this thread have swallowed the New Labour pill that recent immigration is good for Britain and even substantiate this claim with an outdated and incomplete report.

If you're serious about the impact of recent immigration and subsequent effects , "The House of Lords Select Committe Report" from April 2008 contains all the details you need.
By the way
Lyonhibs..if your dissertation isn't handed in yet - I'd read this.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/82.pdf

Essentially it concludes amongst other things:-
RECENT NET IMMIGRATION SHOWS LITTLE BENEFIT TO THE UK

[Dashing Bob S]

OK, i've a fantastic idea. Let's ban all immigration to the UK because its evil and these bad people leech of the nobel taxpayer. Scotland, for example, is the only country in western Europe that has lost people over the last thirty years. Our 5 million population has stayed static for decades.

So let's have a nation of unemployable youths whom we've made no investment in, dealing drugs to each other and a few students and some very old incontinent people living in homes.

Anybody else who is employable can leave the country to look for better paid work, but we won't let anybody in to replace them because their lingo/skin colour/accent is differnt from ours.

Brilliant thinking.


We will do well. As well as we deserve.


******s.

[Mibbes Aye]

You're labouring a point now at the expense of the real issue but I'll indulge you.

The proof you're looking for, would need to be in the form of a census on why economic migrants come to the UK.
Work of course is reason No. 1 but it's not the only reason - you'd need to evaluate other factors such as wages; quality of life; free access to health and education and yes,SUPPLIMENTARY BENEFITS in the big picture. As far as I'm aware, such a detailed study doesn't exist.

Consider this though - 17% of immigrants to the UK do NOT come here primarily to work. They come to "join other family members".
Do you really think in evaluating which country to seek employment, foreign nationals don't take into account Welfare Benefits or their family's rights to residency ?

The Mail links posted earlier mentions Polish families who.."said they heard about availablity of welfare by word of mouth back home or from Job Agencies in Poland"...maybe you'd discount that as evidence because it's the Mail; as you'd discount instructions for claiming benefits appearing in Polish Newspapers ?

To get to the main point, you: along with many others on this thread have swallowed the New Labour pill that recent immigration is good for Britain and even substantiate this claim with an outdated and incomplete report.

If you're serious about the impact of recent immigration and subsequent effects , "The House of Lords Select Committe Report" from April 2008 contains all the details you need.
By the way
Lyonhibs..if your dissertation isn't handed in yet - I'd read this.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/82.pdf

Essentially it concludes amongst other things:-
RECENT NET IMMIGRATION SHOWS LITTLE BENEFIT TO THE UK

Sorry but accusing me of labouring a point "at the expense of the real issue" sounds like an attempt to avoid the truth of the matter.

Which is that you made a dodgy assertion, at best fit for the front of the Daily Mail and probably more at home in a BNP manifesto leaflet.

And you have not backed it up with anything approaching credible evidence.

So why don't you withdraw it?

As for your link, you are using an opinion (by a committee I believe has a Conservative majority as it happens) to back up your argument.

I was referring to factual evidence supplied by the Home Office and the Office of National Statistics amongst others.

There is a subtle but crucial difference there.

Trying to spread mistruths and misinformation to paint a negative picture about immigrants is a very dodgy agenda. It doesn't wash I'm afraid.

[alex plode]

Sorry but accusing me of labouring a point "at the expense of the real issue" sounds like an attempt to avoid the truth of the matter.


The real issue is" Immigration The Great Lie".

You refer to a report which says Immigration provides sound fiscal benefits to the UK (but don't supply a link or any details :confused:) and then rubbish a report published a few weeks ago contradicting your view - by saying the peers involved were mainly Tory :confused: but ignoring any details of social housing or projected population increase for example - or the list of neutral consultees, some of whom are American and probably dont vote Tory :confused:

Please read the House of Lords report and explain:

a. - Which bits aren't factual.
b. - Which bits about Immigration NOT being economically sound for the UK are wrong.

[alex plode]

OK, i've a fantastic idea. Let's ban all immigration to the UK because its evil and these bad people leech of the nobel taxpayer. Scotland, for example, is the only country in western Europe that has lost people over the last thirty years. Our 5 million population has stayed static for decades.
So let's have a nation of unemployable youths whom we've made no investment in, dealing drugs to each other and a few students and some very old incontinent people living in homes.


Immigration as it affects Scotland & England are separate issues imho .
Englands population is expected to rise to over 70 million over the coming decades whilst Scotland's is projected to fall, immigration should therefore be viewed differently in both countries.

There's something not right about importing low-skilled labour when there's low-skilled labour at home claiming benefit.

In tandem with attracting labour to these shores must be a policy of reasoning WHY our streets are full of teenagers not that interested in work, and coming up something to change that.

[The cooler king]

I hear theres a report out that although Uk has experienced an influx of 800k immigrant, crime has decreased by 9%.......wouldnt that be because they are all too busy working?......

Wait till the jobs dry up.:wink:

[lyonhibs]

[quote=Mibbes Aye...;1576410]How does it do that? I don't think you can prove that.


Yes you can.
You have to be very naive to think that available financial incentives don't encourage immigration.
And I dont think you're naive.


Then how do you know it's included - what figure is assumed for benefit payouts or additional support facilities for schools & healthcare institutions ?

On what evidence did is say immigrants are net contributors ?

The truth is ; mass immigration into the UK is a relatively new phenonena.

Consequently, there is no evidence to suggest recent immigration generates large scale economic benefit to the UK - altho' new labour constantly tell you otherwise.

Of course, if by "relatively new" you mean, "has been occuring in a cyclical fashion for the past - at least - 150 years"

Here's a few other facts that I stumbled across - of those Eastern European immigrants that submitted their details to the Worker Registration Scheme - compulsory btw - the vast majority - the exact percentage escapes me, but it was 90+ - were single with no dependents.

And I think that whilst immigrants may move to the UK with the recognition that it IS a better environment to raise children in, their principal motivation is purely economic, to work hard and earn far better wages than they can in their home countries. And with internal EU immigration, a lot of immigrants - Government estimates place the figure at around 50% - return to their home country within 12 months having saved enough money from their UK earnings to improve their quality of life back home.

UK citizens that don't know what a hard days work feels like (I know, I know coming from a student ahahahahaha) and have no desire to do a hard days work ever are the main group that are "suffering" (or getting a long overdue wake-up call) from Eastern European immigrants, and to them I say tough ****.

[Phil D. Rolls]

OK, i've a fantastic idea. Let's ban all immigration to the UK because its evil and these bad people leech of the nobel taxpayer. Scotland, for example, is the only country in western Europe that has lost people over the last thirty years. Our 5 million population has stayed static for decades.

So let's have a nation of unemployable youths whom we've made no investment in, dealing drugs to each other and a few students and some very old incontinent people living in homes.

Anybody else who is employable can leave the country to look for better paid work, but we won't let anybody in to replace them because their lingo/skin colour/accent is differnt from ours.

Brilliant thinking.


We will do well. As well as we deserve.


******s.

Bolted, stable horse door?

[alex plode]

Of course, if by "relatively new" you mean, "has been occuring in a cyclical fashion for the past - at least - 150 years"
No,
By relatively new I mean Britain has NEVER experienced the level of mass immigration absorbed over the past 8 years.


Here's a few other facts that I stumbled across - of those Eastern European immigrants that submitted their details to the Worker Registration Scheme - compulsory btw - the vast majority - the exact percentage escapes me, but it was 90+ - were single with no dependents.
And I think that whilst immigrants may move to the UK with the recognition that it IS a better environment to raise children in, their principal motivation is purely economic, to work hard and earn far better wages than they can in their home countries. And with internal EU immigration, a lot of immigrants - Government estimates place the figure at around 50% - return to their home country within 12 months having saved enough money from their UK earnings to improve their quality of life back home.
UK citizens that don't know what a hard days work feels like (I know, I know coming from a student ahahahahaha) and have no desire to do a hard days work ever are the main group that are "suffering" (or getting a long overdue wake-up call) from Eastern European immigrants, and to them I say tough .

I agree with every word of that,however it doesn't dispel the great myth that recent immigration "Has Been Good for Britain"

The majority of recent immigrants have been unskilled workers.
Injections of large numbers of unskilled workers into an economy doesn't benefit the bulk of the population - it benefits the nanny and housecleaner-using classes and employers who want to pay low wages.
It doesn't benefit indigenous, unskilled Britons who have to compete with immigrants, often expolited themselves, who have to work long hours for low wages in poor conditions.

The economy consequently becomes dependant on a constant influx willing to accept low pay & poor conditions. This is what the government mean when they insist that :-"public services would collapse without immigration".

I hope that was in your essay.

[alex plode]

For what it's worth isn't the £28 million figure one the Telegraph have come up with by taking the number of claimants and multiplying it by the maximum amount that can be claimed?
Yes.
32,000 claimants from Poland (as verified) x £18.80 p/week flat rate for one child = £28 million p/year (or thereabouts)

What other way is there to calculate this figure ?

[Phil D. Rolls]

No,
By relatively new I mean Britain has NEVER experienced the level of mass immigration absorbed over the past 8 years.

I agree with every word of that,however it doesn't dispel the great myth that recent immigration "Has Been Good for Britain"

The majority of recent immigrants have been unskilled workers.
Injections of large numbers of unskilled workers into an economy doesn't benefit the bulk of the population - it benefits the nanny and housecleaner-using classes and employers who want to pay low wages.
It doesn't benefit indigenous, unskilled Britons who have to compete with immigrants, often expolited themselves, who have to work long hours for low wages in poor conditions.

The economy consequently becomes dependant on a constant influx willing to accept low pay & poor conditions. This is what the government mean when they insist that :-"public services would collapse without immigration".

I hope that was in your essay.

What does that mean? Many families cannot trace their ancestry in these Islands more than three generations.

Furthermore, I take it you'd advocate Spain sending back all the unskilled losers we send over there to work in bars, and sell timeshare. Or is their British passport all it takes to show they are a better class of worker?

[alex plode]

Don't think that's quite right, each generation seems to have a new generation of immigrants.


Filled Rolls - missed your earlier post.

Of course that's correct and as somone rightly said earlier, we're ALL immigrants.
What I'm talking about is the recent influx of economic migrant workers which is unprecidented in the UK - and something everyone seems to accept as good for Britain ;when there's evidence to suggest this isn't the case, and very little study done to evaluate potential long-term economic and social harm.

[alex plode]

What does that mean? Many families cannot trace their ancestry in these Islands more than three generations.

If you mean the word "Indigenous" it means "native born".


Furthermore, I take it you'd advocate Spain sending back all the unskilled losers we send over there to work in bars, and sell timeshare. Or is their British passport all it takes to show they are a better class of worker?

You mean seasonal workers or the array of retired home counties golfers adding to the Spanish economy ?

[Mibbes Aye]

The real issue is" Immigration The Great Lie".

You refer to a report which says Immigration provides sound fiscal benefits to the UK (but don't supply a link or any details :confused:) and then rubbish a report published a few weeks ago contradicting your view - by saying the peers involved were mainly Tory :confused: but ignoring any details of social housing or projected population increase for example - or the list of neutral consultees, some of whom are American and probably dont vote Tory :confused:

Please read the House of Lords report and explain:

a. - Which bits aren't factual.
b. - Which bits about Immigration NOT being economically sound for the UK are wrong.

No the real issue is you came out with an assertion that sounds like it could come out of the mouth of a BNP spokesperson.

And you have failed to back it up with any credible evidence.

Why do that? Do you have an agenda to try and foster intolerance? Are you a racist?

As for the report, I pointed out I was quoting something submitted as statistical evidence. You were quoting a committee's opinion. There's a difference. That's not rubbishing anything, it's merely pointing out facts (that's facts as in not assertions).

Oh, and i would imagine there should be a link to the evidence I quoted in the report you quoted BTW.

You seem to have a problem with immigration (and asylum seekers IIRC) and certainly have a lot of claims to make but very little in the way of facts to back them up.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yes.
32,000 claimants from Poland (as verified) x £18.80 p/week flat rate for one child = £28 million p/year (or thereabouts)

What other way is there to calculate this figure ?

So it's based on an assumption that all claimants have claimed for a full year for one child (it's a different, lower rate for second and subsequent children).

Can you see why there might be flaws there?

[alex plode]

So it's based on an assumption that all claimants have claimed for a full year for one child (it's a different, lower rate for second and subsequent children).
Indeed, the figure could well be higher.

Can you see why there might be flaws there ?
There could be flaws in your interpretation of statistics, yes.

[Mibbes Aye]

Indeed, the figure could well be higher.

There could be flaws in your interpretation of statistics, yes.

What, the Telegraph knowingly under-reported? :faf:

No, of course if that's their basis for calculating then the figure could only be lower.

Unless you are suggesting that all the child benefit claimants arrived before the start of the claim year and all had one child and one child only.

Who knows, maybe they did?

[alex plode]

No the real issue is you came out with an assertion that sounds like it could come out of the mouth of a BNP spokesperson.
That's your assertion - not mine.

Why do that? Do you have an agenda to try and foster intolerance? Are you a racist?
God I hope not.


As for the report, I pointed out I was quoting something submitted as statistical evidence. You were quoting a committee's opinion. There's a difference. That's not rubbishing anything, it's merely pointing out facts (that's facts as in not assertions).
Oh, and i would imagine there should be a link to the evidence I quoted in the report you quoted BTW
You obviously haven't read it.
Why don't you print a link to the statistics you keep referring to ??:confused:


You seem to have a problem with immigration (and asylum seekers IIRC) and certainly have a lot of claims to make but very little in the way of facts to back them up.
Of course I've got a problem with immigration - are you a detective ?
As I've said to you on another thread, it's difficult to criticise immigration without being branded racist - and you've just proved that.
The whole tone of your "debate"..seems to be to jump on potentially racist statements.
Sorry to disappoint but saying immigrants enjoy benefits and this country's generosity is a factor in some choosing to live and work here:- isn't racist.

And choosing to ignore a document titled "The Economic Impact on Immigration" really isn't entering into a serious debate.

Once you've read it and answered the earlier questions, we can have a meaningful debate without your obvious agenda
ps.
Remember to highlight the bits in the report which you say aren't factual. I'm genuinely interested .:greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

I hear theres a report out that although Uk has experienced an influx of 800k immigrant, crime has decreased by 9%.......wouldnt that be because they are all too busy working?......

Wait till the jobs dry up.:wink:

:tee hee:

But by that time half the indigenous population will be dead or housebound from obesity, won't they? :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

That's your assertion - not mine.

God I hope not.
You obviously haven't read it.
Why don't you print a link to the statistics you keep referring to ??:confused:


Of course I've got a problem with immigration - are you a detective ?
As I've said to you on another thread, it's difficult to criticise immigration without being branded racist - and you've just proved that.
The whole tone of your "debate"..seems to be to jump on potentially racist statements.
Sorry to disappoint but saying immigrants enjoy benefits and this country's generosity is a factor in some choosing to live and work here:- isn't racist.

And choosing to ignore a document titled "The Economic Impact on Immigration" really isn't entering into a serious debate.

Once you've read it and answered the earlier questions, we can have a meaningful debate without your obvious agenda
ps.
Remember to highlight the bits in the report which you say aren't aren't factual. I'm genuinely interested .:greengrin

Read my posts - I've not branded you anything.

Well except for someone who makes claims without credibly backing them up. And perhaps someone who can't (or won't) distinguish between opinion and fact.

[alex plode]

Read my posts - I've not branded you anything.

Well except for someone who makes claims without credibly backing them up. And perhaps someone who can't (or won't) distinguish between opinion and fact.

You said one of my assertions could have come out of the mouth of a BNP spokesperson - if that's not branding someone racist, I don't know what is.
I await your apology.

Back to the point...what seems like ages ago you said an economic impact report claimed recent immigration has benefitted Britain.
I'll ask you again - can you post a link - and explain why ??:confused:

I'll also ask again - can you explain the bits in the Lords Committe Report posted earlier that you said "wern't factual". :confused:

Wouldn't like you to be open to accusations of making claims without backing them up. :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

You said one of my assertions could have come out of the mouth of a BNP spokesperson - if that's not branding someone racist, I don't know what is.
I await your apology.

Back to the point...what seems like ages ago you said an economic impact report claimed recent immigration has benefitted Britain.
I'll ask you again - can you post a link - and explain why ??:confused:

I'll also ask again - can you explain the bits in the Lords Committe Report posted earlier that you said "wern't factual". :confused:

Wouldn't like you to be open to accusations of making claims without backing them up. :wink:

Bolt. Saying that migrant workers are drawn here because of child benefit sounds to me like the kind of pish that the BNP might come out with. You said it, live with it.

Here's your (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/economic-impact-of-immigration?view=Binary) link.

I said the Select Committee report was an opinion. It is. I was referring to that in connection with your statement -

"Essentially it concludes amongst other things:-
RECENT NET IMMIGRATION SHOWS LITTLE BENEFIT TO THE UK"

This is an opinion, their (your) interpretation of evidence presented before them. They don't have infallibility though and I would question their motivations and agenda in presenting such an opinion.

I contrasted that with the figures produced by ONS etc that were presented as evidence.

But getting back to the assertion that you are presenting as having taken offence at - you can't back it up can you?

[alex plode]

Re -posting links which were posted earlier isn't debating.

To keep it simple - can you explain why the Economic Committe's Report is wrong and the Economic Impact Assessment is right ?

[Mibbes Aye]

Re -posting links which were posted earlier isn't debating.

To keep it simple - can you explain why the Economic Committe's Report is wrong and the Economic Impact Assessment is right ?

:confused: Who re-posted a link?

And "wrong" and "right"? My point has been that the report is an opinion or an interpretation whereas I was referring to statistics in the assessment.

The difference being one is an argument, it is subjective and one is merely factual, more objective

Any luck with some objective, factual backing for your argument about child benefit yet?

[alex plode]

Maybes Aye.

The stage was yours to explain why immigration is good for Britain, but instead you hark back to a comment your racist radar has detected 38 posts ago :-

you wouldn't deny the absence of child benefit in eastern europe has made this country a very attractive destination for migrant workers. No-one has answered this query - do you deny it (if the answer's yes, explain how you know the extra £18 p/week doesn't figure in each claimants minds prior to deciding to work here)
It's my opinion..it's also backed by the fact that child benefit is either absent, hard to come by of means tested in e.europe. It's backed by the fact this country is an attractive destination for e.europeans and over 32,000 claims for child benefit were dispatched to Poland in 2007.
You think that's racist..sorry you're looking for racism where it doesn't exist.

If you look back over the thread you'll see some points I've made on why recent immigration has been less than beneficial. You haven't contributed one positive idea.

Let me start; (just so we can move forward) :-.

Skilled immigrants are fantastic news for this country..they add expertise sadly lacking, provide economic benefit and pay more in taxes than they receive in benefit - bring 'em on I say; especially to Scotland to spread the pressure onUK social housing and stabalise a falling population

Over to you.:I'm waiti

[Mibbes Aye]

Maybes Aye.

The stage was yours to explain why immigration is good for Britain, but instead you hark back to a comment your racist radar has detected 38 posts ago :-
No-one has answered this query - do you deny it (if the answer's yes, explain how you know the extra £18 p/week doesn't figure in each claimants minds prior to deciding to work here)
It's my opinion..it's also backed by the fact that child benefit is either absent, hard to come by of means tested in e.europe. It's backed by the fact this country is an attractive destination for e.europeans and over 32,000 claims for child benefit were dispatched to Poland in 2007.
You think that's racist..sorry you're looking for racism where it doesn't exist.

If you look back over the thread you'll see some points I've made on why recent immigration has been less than beneficial. You haven't contributed one positive idea.

Let me start; (just so we can move forward) :-.

Skilled immigrants are fantastic news for this country..they add expertise sadly lacking, provide economic benefit and pay more in taxes than they receive in benefit - bring 'em on I say; especially to Scotland to spread the pressure onUK social housing and stabalise a falling population

Over to you.:I'm waiti

Yes, I deny your claim that child benefit has made this country a very attractive destination for migrant workers. And I don't like the connotations that go with that claim, which however much you protest are not your sentiments, are those of the far right and those who would seek to foster intolerance.

It's your claim to prove, not anyone else's to disprove. But you can't and you know it.

As far as it goes, you've repeatedly come out with unsourced or poorly-sourced claims that cast a negative light on immigrants and where you have claimed to engage with the issues, it's been a classic "Unskilled foreigners are taking away working-class British jobs" schtick that is exactly what you see the likes of the BNP coming out with.

You know you can't even begin to complain about the migration of skilled workers because there is no credible narrative around how this country would cope without them.

You talk about meaningful debate but all I see from you is poison, covered in a kind of "I'm no racist but..." coating to make your actual points appear more palatable.

I don't need to explain why immigration is a good thing. The history of this country amply demonstrates that. The history of this football club amply demonstrates that.

You pretend to talk about debate but to be honest I think it's just a vehicle to put your dodgy anti-immigrant insinuations on and I'm not sure I want to dirty myself being a part of that.

[alex plode]

OMG
Just realised that the link you posted was your main argument ie the "Economic Impact Assessment" which was actually a reference document for the Lords Committee Report (the one I posted) ........who subsequently rubbished it

You're not making a good case for immigration are you ?

[alex plode]

I don't need to explain why immigration is a good thing. The history of this country amply demonstrates that.

You don't...but I've consistantly asked you to and you've yet to come up with one positive example.

I've even helped you out with reference to influx of skilled workers but all you seem to focus on is pre-conceived notions of racism.

Lighten-up and see the wood from the trees.....

.....please

[lyonhibs]

I think the bottom line - IMO regarding the skilled vs unskilled debate is that "unskilled low paid" jobs are the basis of the economy. Who would drive the train that takes the IT executives to work, who would serve them their Chicken and Bacon club at Pret a Manger at lunchtime, who would clean their offices and boardrooms, who would put their weekly shopping through the till etc etc??
These are the kinds of jobs that Eastern European immigrants are taking up - sometimes highly skilled immigrants that work in jobs that are thereotically "below their station" becasue they can still earn more cleaning offices or plastering over here than they can as a doctor in Poland - and they are simulatanously the type of jobs that low-skilled British citizens (i.e. that sector of society which is probably "negatively affected" by immigration) seem to see as being beneath them, or at least they are not prepared to match immigrant workers in either work ethic or general attitude to the job
To quote a employer in the fruit picking industry in East Anglia - and I'd venture this is not a solitary phenomenem - "The English prefer to work in factories or claim benefits" - see the bottom of page 29 of this link http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/rdsolr0406.pdf

And of course the phrase "Immigration is of little economic benefit to the UK economy" doesn't imply that it has a negative effect - indeed it says it does have a benefit, however marginal that economic benefit may be.

The reality is that the citizens of any EU country can come to the UK in whatever numbers they so desire (freedom of movement of labour). That's a reality. Now, if they are going to legitimately come into the UK come hell or highwater, doesn't it make sense to have them working in the UK economy - if you restrict their labour market access (i.e. only employ those deemed to be high skilled - which gives rise to the issue of cross border transferability and evaluation of qualifications) then you leave them with no option but to either sponge off the system (which they aren't allowed to do to the full extent until after 12 months of continous, registered employment) or enter the murky world of "cash in hand" employment, leaving themselves wide open to exploitation by unscrupulous employers - a lose-lose situation (unless you're a unscrupulous employer of course)

[alex plode]

Lyonhibs..
Another good post.
Highly skilled workers are a huge bonus to this country...there's evidence however that the low-skilled workers who serve you in pret-a-manger, are not so.

The government's line is we need them to fill vacancies but evidence shows, as the number of immigrants increases, vacancies stay at the same level. Of course some of this can be down to job-creation but there's a suggestion immigration designed as a quick-fix , has the unintended consequence of creating the conditions that encourage shortages of local workers in the long term.

There's also evidence that embracing low-skilled workers from abroad only serves to drive down wages.

The government only now recognise this low skill / high skill divide and are introducing a points-based system of entry to this country, based on the applicants "skill" level.

[alex plode]

As for your link, you are using an opinion (by a committee I believe has a Conservative majority as it happens) to back up your argument.
difference there.


The Report posted is by the Select Committee on Ecomnomic Affairs. It will be used to shape future government policy on immigration therefore shouldn't be dismissed as just an "opinion".

The Select Committe has 16 members. 5 are Conservative, 5 Labour, 4 Independent and 2 Lib. Dem.
That not a Conservative majority. :Ummm:

[lyonhibs]

Did anyone else see the piece at the end of the news last night?? Focused on the fact that approx half of the estimated 1 million immigrants that arrived from Eastern European Countries post 2004 have returned to their home countries/left the UK for pastures new.

Thus backing up the fact that this variety of immigration is at least partially transitory.

And THEN it went on to say that for certain industries (hospitality, catering, agriculture) this trend is actually HARMING them in certain areas of the UK - Scotland in particular (I believe Pitlochry was the example used). These industries simply can't find natives to do the work, and have thus become near totally dependent upon immigrants to fill their lower paid - yet vital - jobs.

Thus, there is a valid economic argument in favour of, wait for it................................................ ..................................................
...............................









More Immigrants :dizzy:

I can't wait to see Richard Littlejohn's take on that fact of life.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Did anyone else see the piece at the end of the news last night?? Focused on the fact that approx half of the estimated 1 million immigrants that arrived from Eastern European Countries post 2004 have returned to their home countries/left the UK for pastures new.

Thus backing up the fact that this variety of immigration is at least partially transitory.

And THEN it went on to say that for certain industries (hospitality, catering, agriculture) this trend is actually HARMING them in certain areas of the UK - Scotland in particular (I believe Pitlochry was the example used). These industries simply can't find natives to do the work, and have thus become near totally dependent upon immigrants to fill their lower paid - yet vital - jobs.

Thus, there is a valid economic argument in favour of, wait for it................................................ ..................................................
...............................









More Immigrants :dizzy:

I can't wait to see Richard Littlejohn's take on that fact of life.

I bet they didn't shout Auf Weiderschen Pet when the left either.

[Pretty Boy]

Did anyone else see the piece at the end of the news last night?? Focused on the fact that approx half of the estimated 1 million immigrants that arrived from Eastern European Countries post 2004 have returned to their home countries/left the UK for pastures new.

Thus backing up the fact that this variety of immigration is at least partially transitory.

And THEN it went on to say that for certain industries (hospitality, catering, agriculture) this trend is actually HARMING them in certain areas of the UK - Scotland in particular (I believe Pitlochry was the example used). These industries simply can't find natives to do the work, and have thus become near totally dependent upon immigrants to fill their lower paid - yet vital - jobs.

Thus, there is a valid economic argument in favour of, wait for it................................................ ..................................................
...............................









More Immigrants :dizzy:

I can't wait to see Richard Littlejohn's take on that fact of life.

Probably some bull**** about arrows on tube trains being changed to face Mecca or his good British sausage space in supermarkets being taken up by dirty Polish sausage.

Or some other trivial and probably false grievances.

[The cooler king]

Did anyone else see the piece at the end of the news last night?? Focused on the fact that approx half of the estimated 1 million immigrants that arrived from Eastern European Countries post 2004 have returned to their home countries/left the UK for pastures new.

Thus backing up the fact that this variety of immigration is at least partially transitory.

And THEN it went on to say that for certain industries (hospitality, catering, agriculture) this trend is actually HARMING them in certain areas of the UK - Scotland in particular (I believe Pitlochry was the example used). These industries simply can't find natives to do the work, and have thus become near totally dependent upon immigrants to fill their lower paid - yet vital - jobs.

Thus, there is a valid economic argument in favour of, wait for it................................................ ..................................................
...............................









More Immigrants :dizzy:

I can't wait to see Richard Littlejohn's take on that fact of life.

One in seven schools in UK are now non English speaking FACT!
Immigrants are scamming the British taxpayers out of Mi££ions on Freebie handouts etc. FACT

I say bring em all in.......the 'Flush' is about to be pulled anyhow.
Canna wait till the Anarchy kicks off!!

[steakbake]

One in seven schools in UK are now non English speaking FACT!
Immigrants are scamming the British taxpayers out of Mi££ions on Freebie handouts etc. FACT

I say bring em all in.......the 'Flush' is about to be pulled anyhow.
Canna wait till the Anarchy kicks off!!

A sound factually based argument there.

What will you be doing when the anarchy kicks off? Seeking out immigrants?

[lyonhibs]

One in seven schools in UK are now non English speaking FACT!
Immigrants are scamming the British taxpayers out of Mi££ions on Freebie handouts etc. FACT

I say bring em all in.......the 'Flush' is about to be pulled anyhow.
Canna wait till the Anarchy kicks off!!

I can't decide whethe you're on the piss take or not :dunno:

I say this because most of the time you seem like a decent, rational poster, yet you've taken to adding "FACT" to the end of every statement you make as if this makes it gospel and we should all bow to your superior knowledge.

That sort of tactic is usually the preserve of 16 year olds trying to be "cool" or imbeciles.

And as for anarchy "kicking off" in the UK ........:blah::blah: :hilarious:hilarious:rotflmao:

And how is the "flush" going to be pulled on EU immigrants who - as holders of a EU passport - have the right to emigrate to any fellow EU country in whatever quantities they so wish??

[The cooler king]

I can't decide whethe you're on the piss take or not :dunno:

I say this because most of the time you seem like a decent, rational poster, yet you've taken to adding "FACT" to the end of every statement you make as if this makes it gospel and we should all bow to your superior knowledge.

That sort of tactic is usually the preserve of 16 year olds trying to be "cool" or imbeciles.

And as for anarchy "kicking off" in the UK ........:blah::blah: :hilarious:hilarious:rotflmao:

And how is the "flush" going to be pulled on EU immigrants who - as holders of a EU passport - have the right to emigrate to any fellow EU country in whatever quantities they so wish??

The Flush is in reference to this country going down the PAN......aint happened yet.......but the SHaTs all gathering in the Bowl.....FACT!!

The country is stinking from the Stench of poor political management as highlighted by my Bubbles Burst thread........the right minded peeps of Brittain are about to pull the PLUG!! ....THATS A FACT JACK!!:wink:

[Pretty Boy]

One in seven schools in UK are now non English speaking FACT!
Immigrants are scamming the British taxpayers out of Mi££ions on Freebie handouts etc. FACT

I say bring em all in.......the 'Flush' is about to be pulled anyhow.
Canna wait till the Anarchy kicks off!!

Anarchy in the UK?

Classic, the country generally considered to be one of the least likely ever to see a major revolution suddenly turns to anarchy!

Do you understand just how many different forms of anarchy there are? Could you tell the difference between Anarcho-Capitalism and Syndicalist anarchy? Unlikely i'd wager.

[alex plode]

Thus, there is a valid economic argument in favour of, wait for it................................................ .................................
...............................
More Immigrants :dizzy:


There isn't really a valid economic argument for maintaining a conveyor belt of low-skilled, low-paid workers rolling in and out of the UK when there's already sufficient numbers of low-skilled workers signing-on.

Either you raise wages to make low-skilled jobs more attractive, or revise the benefit system to make sure these able to work, do so.

[steakbake]

privatise welfare - like worker's insurance.

delegate responsibility for basic welfare functions to charitable and religious organisations.

that would probably lift a lot of people from doing nothing to doing something.

but would it be worth doing at all?

it still wouldn't end immigration because in many cases, you can still make as much in a month in the UK than you can in a year in many other countries and there's the draw.

anyhow, i thought one of our correspondents on this thread was looking forward to a new life as an immigrant in australia? hows that working out, then?

[The cooler king]

Aye nice one Gordon, 5 years too late pal.
Half my department work from Delhi, and the front office of my UK site is like a Bombay Market on a Sunday.

The de-nationalisation of the UK workforce is a scourge on our society.
Give us back our future!:agree:

[steakbake]

:troll:

[SlickShoes]

Some people baffle me.

For example, I have a cousin who is now 40 years old. When he left high school he didnt get a job, so one day my mum asked him " what do you want to do?" he said " I want to be a lollipop man!" My mum told him that usually you have to be retired to do this and its not a proper job that will earn him any money and he said " I know ".

This member of my family has not worked a day in his life, neither has his wife. They are both on benefits for various reasons some apprently "medical". They have 4 children, a house, a car and go to florida every year for three weeks holiday.

I have worked since i was 16 and earned everything i own, the problem with this country is the people like my cousin who have no ambition and just want to sponge off the hand outs they get.

[scott7_0(Prague)]

Some people baffle me.

For example, I have a cousin who is now 40 years old. When he left high school he didnt get a job, so one day my mum asked him " what do you want to do?" he said " I want to be a lollipop man!" My mum told him that usually you have to be retired to do this and its not a proper job that will earn him any money and he said " I know ".

This member of my family has not worked a day in his life, neither has his wife. They are both on benefits for various reasons some apprently "medical". They have 4 children, a house, a car and go to florida every year for three weeks holiday.

I have worked since i was 16 and earned everything i own, the problem with this country is the people like my cousin who have no ambition and just want to sponge off the hand outs they get.


WHAT HE SAID,

The I am fighting just now with the local council to give a grant to my folks to have the house adjusted after my recently lost his leg due to illness, we have been told if we were foreign, unemployed, single parent or a drug user then we would have this done and very quickly, but because my old boy is 67 and worked all his life they say it might not be approved!!

Wan*s.