Thatcher

[DaveF]

It's going to happen (eventually!) so when Mags 'moves on' I'd imagine that messageboards up and down the country will be heaving with comment.

So, what the consensus in here then?

Visionary politician who dragged the country off it's backside with privitisation and right to buy policies?

Or

One stop short of a war criminal for a feed the rich agenda and a decimation of union power?

Is it national mourning day or street party when the time comes

[marinello59]

I could find so many reasons to hate this woman, not least of which would be the way she handled the miners strike.

A bit short of time here just now but I will listen to Elvis Costello singing 'Tramp the Dirt Down' later and return for a full blown rant.:greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

It's going to happen (eventually!) so when Mags 'moves on' I'd imagine that messageboards up and down the country will be heaving with comment.

So, what the consensus in here then?

Visionary politician who dragged the country off it's backside with privitisation and right to buy policies?

Or

One stop short of a war criminal for a feed the rich agenda and a decimation of union power?

Is it national mourning day or street party when the time comes

Quiet celebratory drink for me. Don't want to glorify in a death by having a party, however i absolutely detest that woman and all she stands for. Still feeling her effects in the horrific state of the world today.

Under Thatcher the cleaner in my work was paid 1.20 an hour but apparently this was progress because the government wasn't interfering in companies business.

[MSK]

It's going to happen (eventually!) so when Mags 'moves on' I'd imagine that messageboards up and down the country will be heaving with comment.

So, what the consensus in here then?

Visionary politician who dragged the country off it's backside with privitisation and right to buy policies?

Or

One stop short of a war criminal for a feed the rich agenda and a decimation of union power?

Is it national mourning day or street party when the time comesI will be celebrating her parting with a few former Coal Miners whom she helped make theirs & their families lives a misery by chucking them on the scrap heap...

[Jay]

Having been one of 'Maggies Millions' - great label at 17 eh? I wont mourn her passing.

[Iain G]

It's going to happen (eventually!) so when Mags 'moves on' I'd imagine that messageboards up and down the country will be heaving with comment.

So, what the consensus in here then?

Visionary politician who dragged the country off it's backside with privitisation and right to buy policies?

Or

One stop short of a war criminal for a feed the rich agenda and a decimation of union power?

Is it national mourning day or street party when the time comes

Not all good and not all bad, think a lot of people have strong opinions on her for whatever reasons, but she did drag this country out of the dark ages and into the modern world in a lot of ways :agree:

Still think the central idea of the poll tax, of being charged for actually what you use, is fairer than being charged on what your house may or may not be worth...

[Pretty Boy]

Not all good and not all bad, think a lot of people have strong opinions on her for whatever reasons, but she did drag this country out of the dark ages and into the modern world in a lot of ways :agree:

Still think the central idea of the poll tax, of being charged for actually what you use, is fairer than being charged on what your house may or may not be worth...

:bitchy: A local income based tax is the way forward. Those on high incomes have gained a lot more from society so should put more back in, it's as simple as that. All this nonsense about high earners working harder is rubbish. Plenty people who do so called menial jobs who put in a hard days graft, why should they pay the same level of local tax as the top man in their company who earns thousands more than them?

[EuanH78]

Being 29 I had only a vague idea what was going on when she was PM,

as I got older and I learned more of her party and policies during that time I predictably didnt really like her or the Conservatives but to hear the other side of things I read her autobiography.

after about 200 pages I realised I was wrong to dislike her, I should have despised her completely. And so I do.

Now she is a frail old woman, I wont be shedding any tears when she goes, nor will I be celebrating the fact. However I wont be judging anyone who does celebrate her death, she is after all, amongst other things a war criminal. :agree:

[Iain G]

:bitchy: A local income based tax is the way forward. Those on high incomes have gained a lot more from society so should put more back in, it's as simple as that. All this nonsense about high earners working harder is rubbish. Plenty people who do so called menial jobs who put in a hard days graft, why should they pay the same level of local tax as the top man in their company who earns thousands more than them?

4 adults living in one house split the local income tax between themselves, where two adults living next door also split the exact same amount of money between only two people, is this right that 4 people would use more local services than the two and yet they pay the same amount of money due to a valuation of the property they stay in?

You should pay for what you use, isn't that fair?? :confused:

[Pretty Boy]

4 adults living in one house split the local income tax between themselves, where two adults living next door also split the exact same amount of money between only two people, is this right that 4 people would use more local services than the two and yet they pay the same amount of money due to a valuation of the property they stay in?

You should pay for what you use, isn't that fair?? :confused:

But with a local income tax you wouldn't split the money between 2 or 4, it would be based on individual earnings not property value etc.

Inevitably with any local council tax, whether it be the current system, poll tax or local income tax you will pay for services you use and services you don't. It's the nature of the beast unfortunately.

[Jay]

:bitchy: A local income based tax is the way forward. Those on high incomes have gained a lot more from society so should put more back in, it's as simple as that. All this nonsense about high earners working harder is rubbish. Plenty people who do so called menial jobs who put in a hard days graft, why should they pay the same level of local tax as the top man in their company who earns thousands more than them?


The bit in bold? I dont understand. How have people on higher incomes gained more from society?

[Peevemor]

I certainly won't shed a tear when she eventually turns her toes up, but one thing that could be said for her is that she was dead straight in comparison to most politicians. Despicable - yes, but fairly honest with it - what you seen was what you got - the same certainly couldn't be said for a certain Mr Blair.

[Hibs Class]

Being 29 I had only a vague idea what was going on when she was PM,

as I got older and I learned more of her party and policies during that time I predictably didnt really like her or the Conservatives but to hear the other side of things I read her autobiography.

after about 200 pages I realised I was wrong to dislike her, I should have despised her completely. And so I do.

Now she is a frail old woman, I wont be shedding any tears when she goes, nor will I be celebrating the fact. However I wont be judging anyone who does celebrate her death, she is after all, amongst other things a war criminal. :agree:

Not quite clear on the process that took you from a vague idea of what was going on to referring to her as a war criminal, other than reading her autobiography - is there a chapter covering that or did you pick it up somewhere else? (Hopefully your answer won't include "General Belgrano")

[Monts]

Im not going to pretend i know much about the situation as im too young, but i do think its a bit crass to be discussing how to celebrate when someone dies.

Also, is it not the case that she was voted into power by the democratic public of Britain?
She may have been out there, radical and extreme in what she wanted and her views, but she was put in charge by the people.

[Peevemor]

Im not going to pretend i know much about the situation as im too young, but i do think its a bit crass to be discussing how to celebrate when someone dies.

Also, is it not the case that she was voted into power by the democratic public of Britain?
She may have been out there, radical and extreme in what she wanted and her views, but she was put in charge by the people.

You have a point, but I'm not sure you're aware how much she was hated
in Scotland. She was put into power by English voters. She didn't give a toss for Scotland, and this was reflected by the tory vote which fell to a record low during her tenure. At one point there were no (zero) tory MPs in Scotland or Wales, but they remained the ruling party - but that's UK democracy for you.

[PC Stamp]

The bit in bold? I dont understand. How have people on higher incomes gained more from society?


Good question Jill. The statement that was made seems to ignore the possibility that many of those now on high incomes maybe started off with very little or in those very same menial jobs and worked their asses off to get up there. Whilst some others maybe sat on their asses thinking the world owed them a living!

[Iain G]

Good question Jill. The statement that was made seems to ignore the possibility that many of those now on high incomes maybe started off with very little or in those very same menial jobs and worked their asses off to get up there. Whilst some others maybe sat on their asses thinking the world owed them a living!

And thats socialism for ya :wink::greengrin

Sod this nanny state attitude, freedom of the individual is where its at...

[--------]

I thought Thatcher was bad. Then Tony B.liar came along.

Given the mess the country was in when she came in, I'm rather inclined to class her as a necessary evil. Sensitivity to minorities wasn't one of her strong-points, though.

What's worse - the mind-set and culture of Scottish Labour as it was then and as it still is to this day in many of its darker nooks and crannies, or Thatcherite Conservatissm? Personally, I reckon they're two sides of the same corrupt coin.

The Wilson/Callaghan brand of Labour led us to Thatcher; Thatcher led us to Blair; and Blair, alas, has led us to Brown who may very well lead us to Cameron. What a mess.

[Pretty Boy]

The bit in bold? I dont understand. How have people on higher incomes gained more from society?

Higher education standard, higher chance of social mobility etc etc. Although everyone gets a chance of a free education, not everyone for various social and economic reasons get to take it up. It's the nature of the capitalist beast that whilst theoretically we all have the same chances, in reality the wealthy few will always benefit far more from the system.

Of course there is the distinct possibility that those who are on higher incomes have worked exceptionally hard for what they have, and good on them. However i would argue that they know how tough it is to get to the top, so surely there own morality would see that putting a bit more back into the system is a good thing. Not every person who claims benefits or finds themselves in a poorly paid job is lazy and work shy, people can find themselves in desperate situations for many reasons, single parent, disability, carer for an elderly relative etc, why should these people be denied adequate support because a few fat cats who view everyone who is poorly paid or unemployed as a scrounger. The current benefit system in this country, especially for people like carers, is absolutely shameful and for that we need look no further than dear old Mrs Thatcher.

[Bad Martini]

It's going to happen (eventually!) so when Mags 'moves on' I'd imagine that messageboards up and down the country will be heaving with comment.

So, what the consensus in here then?

Visionary politician who dragged the country off it's backside with privitisation and right to buy policies?

Or

One stop short of a war criminal for a feed the rich agenda and a decimation of union power?

Is it national mourning day or street party when the time comes


I have two words and leave you all to draw your own conclusions thereafter;

Poll Tax



...ponder as ye will.

ENDOF

[Oscar T Grouch]

I would like to see her have a long painful death interspurst with bouts of torture, and on the day of her death she should be skined alive just so it hurts a wee bit more. The woman is evil, what she done to communities up and down the country was unforgivable. If I believed I hope she burns in hell for all eternity...........


no that I have a pathelogical hatred of the woman:greengrin
































but I do hope she has a painful death........I will one day dance on her grave......bitch.......nuf said?

[The cooler king]

It's going to happen (eventually!) so when Mags 'moves on' I'd imagine that messageboards up and down the country will be heaving with comment.

So, what the consensus in here then?

Visionary politician who dragged the country off it's backside with privitisation and right to buy policies?

Or

One stop short of a war criminal for a feed the rich agenda and a decimation of union power?

Is it national mourning day or street party when the time comes

Maggie will go down as the greatest PM this country has ever had.

Single handedly brought this country up from third world poverty, which was orchestrated by the weakness of Labour in being unable to curb the power of the Unions, to the powerhouse of financial stability and wealth which we have now.

:agree:

[stu in nottingham]

It will take some silver bullets.

[Bad Martini]

Maggie will go down as the greatest PM this country has ever had.

Single handedly brought this country up from third world poverty, which was orchestrated by the weakness of Labour in being unable to curb the power of the Unions, to the powerhouse of financial stability and wealth which we have now.

:agree:

As the pixies went dashing for the toad stolls, the fairies flew by the window with flying pigs galore and the magical dust of a rainbow settled in the sky.

......mind kids, DONT touch mind altering substances. Its not big, or clever

:faf::faf::faf:

[Mibbes Aye]

It's going to happen (eventually!) so when Mags 'moves on' I'd imagine that messageboards up and down the country will be heaving with comment.

So, what the consensus in here then?

Visionary politician who dragged the country off it's backside with privitisation and right to buy policies?

Or

One stop short of a war criminal for a feed the rich agenda and a decimation of union power?

Is it national mourning day or street party when the time comes

Her vision for this country differed vastly from mine and many others. Her governments legitimised selfishness and shattered any notion that some pursuit of the common good was what should bind us together.

Yet she reshaped the nation more than anyone since Clement Attlee after the war. In some ways she probably changed the country more than that administration did, and it's hard not to get the sense that, aptly enough, she drove more of her changes than he did his, that the '45 Labour government was more collective.

I don't share her political beliefs by a long chalk but she is undoubtedly one of the most important leaders in our modern history.

[Big Ed]

Maggie will go down as the greatest PM this country has ever had.

Single handedly brought this country up from third world poverty, which was orchestrated by the weakness of Labour in being unable to curb the power of the Unions, to the powerhouse of financial stability and wealth which we have now.

:agree:

You make it sound so simple.
Your third world poverty statement is flipant, but there is no doubt that her first Conservative government rode in on the crest of public disillusionment with Labour's poor track record against the Unions.
Her legacy in my opinion was the encouragement of greed and selfishness, backed by an almost exclusively partizan pro-Thatcher press and judiciary.
One of the most digusting aspects of her tenure however, was the continuing support of the Apartheid regime in South Africa whilst also happily backing General Pinochet in Chile and Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
Finally, her savage contempt for working class people (particularly in Scotland) and her jingoistic approach to Europe means that I can have absolutely no qualms about dancing a jig when her cold, cob-webby heart stops beating for the final time.

[Haymaker]

There is a party in trafalgar square the saturday after her death.

[Iain G]

I actually do find it pretty disgusting that anyone would go out of their way to celebrate anyones death... :agree:

[Ants]

Thatcher = Mercer
Mercer = Thatcher

Both tried very hard at closing down viable businesses, only 1 succeded.

[Monts]

I actually do find it pretty disgusting that anyone would go out of their way to celebrate anyones death... :agree:

:agree:

[hibbie02]

You have a point, but I'm not sure you're aware how much she was hated
in Scotland. She was put into power by English voters. She didn't give a toss for Scotland, and this was reflected by the tory vote which fell to a record low during her tenure. At one point there were no (zero) tory MPs in Scotland or Wales, but they remained the ruling party - but that's UK democracy for you.


Compare and contrast with the current situation with Scottish and Welsh Labour MPs propping up the erse end of Blairism under our esteemed Mr Brown.

Personally I had the misfortune of starting my working life under "Old" Labour and was pleased to see Thatcher voted in. I was brought up in a working class household with a good work ethic and only under Thatcher did I see the rewards for that. I moved down South and in fact met the lady and was hugely impressed by her charisma and intellect. Strange but true.

I did not agree with her views on devolution and did not agree with the Poll Tax, but having paid Rates in Edinburgh for years at an extortionate level for years, something needed to be done. If you ask me, the current Concil Tax is worse.

I don't see her as a war criminal and if she was that bad, why did Blair go so far in his praise of her and adopt so many of her ideas. Blair is a war criminal and so is his mate Bush.

I think she lost the plot in the end and so did the whole Tory Party. I can see Labour doing the same thing very soon as a Govenrment has only a limited shelf life before their ideas get tooo stupid and they get hoyed out of office for a considerable period.

Just my tuppence worth from someone who has profited from the Thatcher legacy through hard work. Where would we be now if we stayed as we were in the 70's?

[Bad Martini]

Compare and contrast with the current situation with Scottish and Welsh Labour MPs propping up the erse end of Blairism under our esteemed Mr Brown.

Personally I had the misfortune of starting my working life under "Old" Labour and was pleased to see Thatcher voted in. I was brought up in a working class household with a good work ethic and only under Thatcher did I see the rewards for that. I moved down South and in fact met the lady and was hugely impressed by her charisma and intellect. Strange but true.

I did not agree with her views on devolution and did not agree with the Poll Tax, but having paid Rates in Edinburgh for years at an extortionate level for years, something needed to be done. If you ask me, the current Concil Tax is worse.

I don't see her as a war criminal and if she was that bad, why did Blair go so far in his praise of her and adopt so many of her ideas. Blair is a war criminal and so is his mate Bush.

I think she lost the plot in the end and so did the whole Tory Party. I can see Labour doing the same thing very soon as a Govenrment has only a limited shelf life before their ideas get tooo stupid and they get hoyed out of office for a considerable period.

Just my tuppence worth from someone who has profited from the Thatcher legacy through hard work. Where would we be now if we stayed as we were in the 70's?

Sporting ropey looking flaired trousers, even ropier Petrie-esque tache's and some very dodgy porn style themed music dominating the charts :thumbsup:

In all seriousness, the sun shines on a dogs ass somedays and Thatcher must have got one or two things right whilst in power. That said, anything she done for the good of the Scottish nation was clearly not the first priority, second priority or indeed, any priority.

Don't get me wrong ... some of her underlying principles and ideas were perhaps not as misplaced as some would suggest BUT, he implementation of said plans and her disregard for the 5 million punters up here was evident for the world to see.

For that, she can piss off. Everyone is entitled to their own tho.....

[sidjames]

I met her a number of times when I worked in HOC and Whitehall.

She was something different to the norm that was for sure. Had a clear vision of what was right and what was wrong of which like every other human being some of it was and some of it wasn´t. Interesting times they were, what with flares, big collars, Pans People and Abba and beer only 12p a pint too!

[Frazerbob]

Quite simply the finest and strongest leader this country has had in my life time. Do you think she would have run along quietly at the end of Bush's leash?

Agree with her policies or not, nobody can deny she was great at what she did, was a strong leader and got what she wanted. For a woman in the 1970's and 80's that is no mean feat. She make Brown, Blair, Major et all look like rank amateurs!!

I will be very sad when she does pass and really hope that Scotland is not dragged through the gutter with inappropriate reactions from those who disagreed with her politics and methods.

[Bishop Hibee]

She and her right wing Tory minions put millions out of work in the early 80's. She led the country into the Falklands War to get her party out of the mess they were in with high inflation and unemployment and the fact that they were staring electoral defeat in the face. She hated the Scots for not voting Tory and stuck it right up us with the Poll Tax. I loved the Hibees Against the Poll Tax banner at the '89 cup semi.

Edinburgh was shielded from her devastation to a large degree as it didn't have an industrial base. I lived in County Durham from 2001 to 2005 and places like Consett were only really beginning to recover form the pit and steelwork closures of the early 80's.

Chickens have come home to roost with lawlessness throughout the UK. It's only people looking after number 1 after all, just like Maggie told them too :brickwall Similarly, the easy availabilty of cheap credit can be traced back to her governments' deregulation of the financial markets.

[Dashing Bob S]

I thought Thatcher was bad. Then Tony B.liar came along.

Given the mess the country was in when she came in, I'm rather inclined to class her as a necessary evil. Sensitivity to minorities wasn't one of her strong-points, though.

What's worse - the mind-set and culture of Scottish Labour as it was then and as it still is to this day in many of its darker nooks and crannies, or Thatcherite Conservatissm? Personally, I reckon they're two sides of the same corrupt coin.

The Wilson/Callaghan brand of Labour led us to Thatcher; Thatcher led us to Blair; and Blair, alas, has led us to Brown who may very well lead us to Cameron. What a mess.

Couldn't agree more, Doddie. The Labour Party and the Tories to me are a bit like the OF; they claim to hate each other but are part of the same f-e-s-t-e-ring pox.

It was Dennis Healy who went to the IMF in 78 and introduced monetarism, it was the Labour Party who messed up the Scottish Parliament in 79. All Thatcher did was move the same reactionary policies forward, so that Blair could come in and compound this further.

Let me say that I loathe, hate and detest the woman and every petty, narrow-minded little-Englander grocer's-daughter value she stood for, but at least you knew where you stood with her. The obsequious, conniving, back-stabbing liar that is Blair and his souless political class acolytes, I detest even more.

[Hibs Class]

She and her right wing Tory minions put millions out of work in the early 80's. She led the country into the Falklands War to get her party out of the mess they were in with high inflation and unemployment and the fact that they were staring electoral defeat in the face. She hated the Scots for not voting Tory and stuck it right up us with the Poll Tax. I loved the Hibees Against the Poll Tax banner at the '89 cup semi.

Edinburgh was shielded from her devastation to a large degree as it didn't have an industrial base. I lived in County Durham from 2001 to 2005 and places like Consett were only really beginning to recover form the pit and steelwork closures of the early 80's.

Chickens have come home to roost with lawlessness throughout the UK. It's only people looking after number 1 after all, just like Maggie told them too :brickwall Similarly, the easy availabilty of cheap credit can be traced back to her governments' deregulation of the financial markets.

How exactly did she persuade Galtieri to invade and sacrifice 750 Argentine lives just so that the conservative party would look good?:confused:

[Big Ed]

How exactly did she persuade Galtieri to invade and sacrifice 750 Argentine lives just so that the conservative party would look good?:confused:

Ah - so glad you asked. During the 70s, the British Secret Services got wind of a plot by the Argentine Governement to invade the Falkland Islands. The [Wilson] Labour Government sent a couple of naval vessels to the South Atlantic and the invasion never took place.
In the early 80s, the Argentinians,at the time ruled by the Military, decided to try again. The Secret Services again got wind of the plot. This time Thatcher decided to have a dash.
The Islands were duly invaded and the fragrant Mrs. T and her Cabinet made a patriotic show of defending a colony the length of the planet away, with the excited approval of the salavating right wing press.
The Argentinian forces were made up largely of conscripts, while the British sent Marines, Paratroopers and Special Forces.
The result of this mis-match was a relatively quick away win and a fabulous distraction from events back in Blighty.

[dumfries hibby]

It's going to happen (eventually!) so when Mags 'moves on' I'd imagine that messageboards up and down the country will be heaving with comment.

So, what the consensus in here then?

Visionary politician who dragged the country off it's backside with privitisation and right to buy policies?

Or

One stop short of a war criminal for a feed the rich agenda and a decimation of union power?

Is it national mourning day or street party when the time comes



can't stand the woman , she starved the miners back to work to smash the trade unions, would happily dig her grave with a tee spoon :bye:

[Iain G]

Ah - so glad you asked. During the 70s, the British Secret Services got wind of a plot by the Argentine Governement to invade the Falkland Islands. The [Wilson] Labour Government sent a couple of naval vessels to the South Atlantic and the invasion never took place.
In the early 80s, the Argentinians,at the time ruled by the Military, decided to try again. The Secret Services again got wind of the plot. This time Thatcher decided to have a dash.
The Islands were duly invaded and the fragrant Mrs. T and her Cabinet made a patriotic show of defending a colony the length of the planet away, with the excited approval of the salavating right wing press.
The Argentinian forces were made up largely of conscripts, while the British sent Marines, Paratroopers and Special Forces.
The result of this mis-match was a relatively quick away win and a fabulous distraction from events back in Blighty.

In all fairness we did send Prince Andrew aswell :greengrin

[BSEJVT]

Fantastic thread.

My view is that you need to take the actual persona out of the equation in determining her legacy.

That she reformed Britain as an economic and world power is I think indisputable.

That those reforms have improved the standard of living of the majority of the people of the country is also indisputable.

The enterprise culture she promoted exists to this day, with the result that many of society's most succesful people come from modest family backgrounds i.e. not old money or position.

The right to buy legislation was a tremendous success, in as far as went, but stopped short in forcing the replacement of rent stock by local councils to continue to fuel the process for future generations, with the resultant limbo that many families now find themselves in with little chance of change.

I would not want to trivialise the impact her policies had on sections of the community as the polices of her government worked through and any legacy she has is inevitably tainted by this.

However, "its not possible to make any omelette without breaking eggs" and if you contrast that approach with the fannying around of successive governments then I honestly doubt whether a piecemeal approach to the reforms needed would have succeeded.

Any cause needs someone to rally behind and in Mrs Thatcher they found a leader that produced strong emotions, one way or another.

In her defence, I would say that at least you knew what she stood for, whereas I dont think you do now with succesive leaders of either party.

That fact alone engaged more people in the democratic process than have hitherto bothered as I think may people, me included, now feel completely disenfranchised.

There is no doubt that society is more fragmented than before, but I would put this down more to society's evolution than her policies as other country's are similarly effected.

There is a national shame that those in our society who need state help dont get enough of it and on the flip side that many people engineer situations to derive state help deliberately.

Again setting aside her persona, the debate on her legacy comes down to whether you believe in socialism in all its colours through to Communism or Conservative policies which place more emphasis on personal responsibility.

Communism has failed around the world as at the end of the day there is no incentive to go the extra mile if you wont benefit in proportion to your efforts.

Recent Labour Goverment's laudable attempts at improving the NHS and Schools have failed miserably despite the massive amounts of money thrown at them as it is clear that society has become more affluent and people want to make their own choices and a one size approach just doesnt fit anymore.

Its absolutely clear to me that society absolutely must protect its vulnerable people and in this regard there must be a "safety net" and a level of care/ services available for all, who dont abuse it, from cradle to grave.

IMO Mrs Thatcher will easily go down in history as one of Britain's most imprtant leaders. I doubt that any other leader before or since will have provoked quite such a range of opinion.

Me personally, I wil be very sorry to see her pass.

Her epitaph should read " A necessary evil"

[New Corrie]

The industrial vandalism that has blighted Britain is for me the only sad part of her legacy. It is such a sad waste visiting now destitute communities which once thrived on heavy industry. Two headstrong people going at each other with no thoughts whatsoever for the consequences. I'm glad (not sure if that's the word) she won that particular battle, as Union power was dragging Britain to new depths. I just wish some common ground could have been found.

That aside, for me she was a tremendous Prime Minister. I felt a lot safer with her at the helm, and felt that law abiding people were put before criminals. Britain's well being was always put first. She would never sold her soul to the EU.

[capitals_finest]

The industrial vandalism that has blighted Britain is for me the only sad part of her legacy. It is such a sad waste visiting now destitute communities which once thrived on heavy industry. Two headstrong people going at each other with no thoughts whatsoever for the consequences. I'm glad (not sure if that's the word) she won that particular battle, as Union power was dragging Britain to new depths. I just wish some common ground could have been found.

That aside, for me she was a tremendous Prime Minister. I felt a lot safer with her at the helm, and felt that law abiding people were put before criminals. Britain's well being was always put first. She would never sold her soul to the EU.

I have always felt like i should hate the woman but you make some fair points. Most of the older people in my family hated her but even my grandad (a staunch Labour man) says that she done what had to be done re. the unions. I don't know enough to really comment and i would have probably hated her if i was old enough to hate her in these days. However she was clearly a brilliant leader and if we had someone like her in charge now the streets would be a lot safer.

[marinello59]

Quite simply the finest and strongest leader this country has had in my life time. Do you think she would have run along quietly at the end of Bush's leash?

Agree with her policies or not, nobody can deny she was great at what she did, was a strong leader and got what she wanted. For a woman in the 1970's and 80's that is no mean feat. She make Brown, Blair, Major et all look like rank amateurs!!

I will be very sad when she does pass and really hope that Scotland is not dragged through the gutter with inappropriate reactions from those who disagreed with her politics and methods.

Those that regard Thatcher with nothing but ill feeling are not confined to Scotland. In fact I would hazard a guess that those of us that regard her with feelings akin to contempt are spread evenly throughout the whole UK.
I won't be dancing in the streets and letting off party poppers when she finally departs this world but neither will I shed a single tear.

[MSK]

Those that regard Thatcher with nothing but ill feeling are not confined to Scotland. In fact I would hazard a guess that those of us that regard her with feelings akin to contempt are spread evenly throughout the whole UK.
I won't be dancing in the streets and letting off party poppers when she finally departs this world but neither will I shed a single tear.I despise her for a lot of things, bringing British industry to its knees being one, particularly coal mining ...she said the government would stop subsidising less productive pits ..rather than help those pits she shut them completely..she started with the Corntonwood Colliery in South Yorkshire then closed another 20 thus resulting in the loss of 20,000 jobs..

She was on the rampage & pits closed the length & breadth of Britain ..she totally de-stabilised the coal mining industry which was the largest & most efficient industry in Europe..

Non subsidy of less productive pits .. or going for the much cheaper imported coal ?

Hundreds of thousands of coal miners out of work, families throughout the country on the breadline, families & relationships broken beyond repair..friendships likewise....2008 & still mining communities throughout Britain are struggling ..her legacy remains & will still haunt long after she has gone ...

Heres a quote from the liar after the 1984 miners strike ..she said she was very relieved the strike was over & added "I want a prosperous coal industry"

Not long after ...British coal mining was dead !!!

[New Corrie]

I apreciate what you are saying. I recently visited the site of Comrie Colliery in Fife and it is very sad to think that as recently as 1986, 2000 men were working there, however I do believe that the Trade Unions would have killed the industry off anyway. As I said a happy medium would have been nice. It's also worth remembering that more coal mines closed under Labour governments than Conservative ones.

[Bad Martini]

I despise her for a lot of things, bringing British industry to its knees being one, particularly coal mining ...she said the government would stop subsidising less productive pits ..rather than help those pits she shut them completely..she started with the Corntonwood Colliery in South Yorkshire then closed another 20 thus resulting in the loss of 20,000 jobs..

She was on the rampage & pits closed the length & breadth of Britain ..she totally de-stabilised the coal mining industry which was the largest & most efficient industry in Europe..

Non subsidy of less productive pits .. or going for the much cheaper imported coal ?

Hundreds of thousands of coal miners out of work, families throughout the country on the breadline, families & relationships broken beyond repair..friendships likewise....2008 & still mining communities throughout Britain are struggling ..her legacy remains & will still haunt long after she has gone ...

Heres a quote from the liar after the 1984 miners strike ..she said she was very relieved the strike was over & added "I want a prosperous coal industry"

Not long after ...British coal mining was dead !!!

Good point, well made.

This can be carried on whereby Thatcher (RIGHTLY, the only thing I agree with she ever did or said) wanted everyone to sort themselves out as far as possible, financially, socially etc - this is CORRECT...regardless of political persuasion, only the laziest bassas in society would object ... however, she did nothing to ensure those thousands of miners could do anything but sink....and en-mass.

Remember, when everyone is heading for the pit door, in the middle of a massive meltdown, they ALL wanted new jobs...they all wanted to feed their families, help "themselves" etc but is the enviornent she created conducive to doing that?

I think not.

She was strong willed. She was determined. She was headstrong. Most good LEADERS are. Doesnt mean what she stood for was right. My lack of admiration (or even liking) for the woman is borne from many things not least of which her utter CONTEMPT for Scotland.

I wont laugh/cry or otherwise when she shuffles off this mortal coil but I certainly won't consider the country having lost any great prized assett. Headstrong/loud mouthed/self thinking leaders are all over ........ arguably, some STAND for the wrong thing ... its all about finding one who you agree with and voting them in.

ENDOF IMHO

[MSK]

Not all doom & gloom though..fingers crossed...

Turkish Press


Light at end of tunnel for British coal-mining industry


02-20-2007, 04h57
CWMGWRACH, Wales (AFP)



Miners at a coal mine in the village of Cwmgwrach in south Wales. The miners are currently preparing the deep coal mine for a re-opening later this year, thirty years after it was closed.
(AFP)

With lights twinkling brightly from their helmets, a group of miners emerge caked in dust from a deep coal-mine in the village of Cwmgwrach in south Wales.

The reopening of Cwmgwrach (pronounced Kumrak) marks a much-needed glimmer of hope for Britain's mining sector, which has been blighted by social and economic problems since the 1980s.

After 60 years of decline, the industry has been shaken up by technology which has slashed energy wasted in the coal-mining process -- while also cutting carbon dioxide emmissions.

The Cwmgwrach facility -- set to restart production this year -- will be the first opening of a deep mine for around 30 years.

"It's good to be back," said miner Tony Berg after clambering out of the mineshaft.

He added: "It is hard work, but you work together. The spirit is what you miss when you're doing another job."

With a growing global consensus emerging over the catastrophic threat of global warming, coal mining has witnessed something of a renaissance.

Added to the picture, rising coal prices and rampant Chinese demand -- alongside dwindling British gas and oil reserves in the North Sea -- have sparked new interest in coal.

"The future looks brighter for coal than it has for at least two decades," said Iain McMenemy, a spokesman for Scottish Coal.

"Demand has increased in the UK -- coal now produces about 50 percent of our electricity, up from 30 percent a few years ago."

In Britain, there are only seven coal deep-mines still in operation, according to the Department for Trade and Industry.

Roughly one third of the country's electricity was produced by coal in 2005.

But that figure rose to as much as 50 percent during the past two winters owing to higher gas prices and colder weather conditions.

Back at the Cwmgwrach plant, experts estimate that some 89 million tonnes of coal remain.

Production is expected to begin later this year, with annual production of 1.0 million tonnes expected from 2008 onwards. The mine was closed in 1999 due to lack of profitability.

"When you look at the old mining methods, they wasted a lot," said Steve Turtain, systems manager at Cwmgwrach. "Now the energy which is produced from the coal is very clean, with not much waste."

He added that the new mine would bring also more money into the Welsh village and thus benefit the whole community.

"It's going to bring in higher paid jobs and we'll create a new community spirit," Turtain said. "We want to be the leading force for technology again, for mining equipment, and that again will help the local industry. We want to build a family of miners as it was towards the end of the seventies."

The mining sector was ravaged in the mid-1980s. Coal miners striking against pit closures were crushed in 1985 after a bitter struggle with the Conservative government of former prime minister Margaret Thatcher.

[PC Stamp]

Not all doom & gloom though..fingers crossed...

Turkish Press


Light at end of tunnel for British coal-mining industry


02-20-2007, 04h57
CWMGWRACH, Wales (AFP)



Miners at a coal mine in the village of Cwmgwrach in south Wales. The miners are currently preparing the deep coal mine for a re-opening later this year, thirty years after it was closed.
(AFP)

With lights twinkling brightly from their helmets, a group of miners emerge caked in dust from a deep coal-mine in the village of Cwmgwrach in south Wales.

The reopening of Cwmgwrach (pronounced Kumrak) marks a much-needed glimmer of hope for Britain's mining sector, which has been blighted by social and economic problems since the 1980s.

After 60 years of decline, the industry has been shaken up by technology which has slashed energy wasted in the coal-mining process -- while also cutting carbon dioxide emmissions.

The Cwmgwrach facility -- set to restart production this year -- will be the first opening of a deep mine for around 30 years.

"It's good to be back," said miner Tony Berg after clambering out of the mineshaft.

He added: "It is hard work, but you work together. The spirit is what you miss when you're doing another job."

With a growing global consensus emerging over the catastrophic threat of global warming, coal mining has witnessed something of a renaissance.

Added to the picture, rising coal prices and rampant Chinese demand -- alongside dwindling British gas and oil reserves in the North Sea -- have sparked new interest in coal.

"The future looks brighter for coal than it has for at least two decades," said Iain McMenemy, a spokesman for Scottish Coal.

"Demand has increased in the UK -- coal now produces about 50 percent of our electricity, up from 30 percent a few years ago."

In Britain, there are only seven coal deep-mines still in operation, according to the Department for Trade and Industry.

Roughly one third of the country's electricity was produced by coal in 2005.

But that figure rose to as much as 50 percent during the past two winters owing to higher gas prices and colder weather conditions.

Back at the Cwmgwrach plant, experts estimate that some 89 million tonnes of coal remain.

Production is expected to begin later this year, with annual production of 1.0 million tonnes expected from 2008 onwards. The mine was closed in 1999 due to lack of profitability.

"When you look at the old mining methods, they wasted a lot," said Steve Turtain, systems manager at Cwmgwrach. "Now the energy which is produced from the coal is very clean, with not much waste."

He added that the new mine would bring also more money into the Welsh village and thus benefit the whole community.

"It's going to bring in higher paid jobs and we'll create a new community spirit," Turtain said. "We want to be the leading force for technology again, for mining equipment, and that again will help the local industry. We want to build a family of miners as it was towards the end of the seventies."

The mining sector was ravaged in the mid-1980s. Coal miners striking against pit closures were crushed in 1985 after a bitter struggle with the Conservative government of former prime minister Margaret Thatcher.


Either way that pit doesn't appear to have been closed by Thatcher. She came to power in 1979 which is still less than 30 years ago. If 1999 ... it would have been Tony Blair whose name is now spoken of as Tony Bliar by many which speaks volumes!

As Corrie Greens says, Labour probably closed more pits than the Tories. I'm not sure it was the closing of pits that was the issue as the industry was dying on it's feet. It was the manner in which it was done which will forever form part of Thatcher's legacy.

[MSK]

Either way that pit doesn't appear to have been closed by Thatcher. She came to power in 1979 which is still less than 30 years ago. If 1999 ... it would have been Tony Blair whose name is now spoken of as Tony Bliar by many which speaks volumes!

As Corrie Greens says, Labour probably closed more pits than the Tories. I'm not sure it was the closing of pits that was the issue as the industry was dying on it's feet. It was the manner in which it was done which will forever form part of Thatcher's legacy.Yeah, i know why that & quite a few others closed mate, my point being though, that Welsh pit has reserves of 89 million tonnes of coal...Lady Vic in Newtongrange (now the mining museum) had around 60/80 million tonnes of coal reserves & Monktonhall Colliery 50/60 million tonnes..mean that theres still plenty of the black diamonds down there & with that pit opening up there is still the possibility of more opening up in the future ...never say never ..

I know those two collierys mentioned will never open up again, certainly not at their current locations but perhaps that Welsh pit opening may just be the start of something good ...

[New Corrie]

Yeah, i know why that & quite a few others closed mate, my point being though, that Welsh pit has reserves of 89 million tonnes of coal...Lady Vic in Newtongrange (now the mining museum) had around 60/80 million tonnes of coal reserves & Monktonhall Colliery 50/60 million tonnes..mean that theres still plenty of the black diamonds down there & with that pit opening up there is still the possibility of more opening up in the future ...never say never ..

I know those two collierys mentioned will never open up again, certainly not at their current locations but perhaps that Welsh pit opening may just be the start of something good ...


I hope so as you can't build a country round call centres. I noticed recently that discussions were taking place re the possible reopening of Longannet Mine. Here's hoping. Seems bizarre that we bring in coal from all over the planet to fuel the power station that sits next door to the now sadly closed pit.

[MSK]

I hope so as you can't build a country round call centres. I noticed recently that discussions were taking place re the possible reopening of Longannet Mine. Here's hoping. Seems bizarre that we bring in coal from all over the planet to fuel the power station that sits next door to the now sadly closed pit.I think Longannet like Monktonhall suffered severe flooding with millions of gallons of water flooding the pits, opening new pit heads in either of those locations would be impossible i think , not 100% sure about Longannet but i dont think Monktonhall would ever open again.

[MSK]

I think Longannet like Monktonhall suffered severe flooding with millions of gallons of water flooding the pits, opening new pit heads in either of those locations would be impossible i think , not 100% sure about Longannet but i dont think Monktonhall would ever open again.

Longannet floods in 2002

Grim future for deep coal mine


Longannet's directors announced the closure

The prospects for Scotland's last deep coal mine have been described as "horrendous" after the company was placed into liquidation.
The move was made by the directors of the firm which operates the Longannet pit in Fife.

Some 366 miners and 150 contractors have lost their jobs at the mine, which was flooded by 17 million gallons of water at the weekend.



There's no way we can operate knowing there could be another flood

Bryan Jackson
PKF
The directors of Scottish Coal (Deep Mine) - a subsidiary of Mining (Scotland) - announced that the company could no longer operate the mine following a meeting on Friday morning.

The receivers, Glasgow-based accountants PKF, have estimated that it could cost £50m to make Longannet operational again.

Partner Bryan Jackson described the pit's prospects as "horrendous" - and said that the safety problems over-rode everything.

He said: "There's a suspicion that there's another 50 million gallons of water waiting to come in on top of last Saturday's 17 million.

"Seeing a liquidator is bad enough but when there's a chance of people's lives being lost is much worse.


The pit employs about 500 people

"There's no way we can operate knowing there could be another flood."

[MSK]

New future for Longannet ?

Campaigners who are calling for Longannet Colliery in Fife to be reopened say they are getting "good signals" from the Scottish government.

Longannet was the last deep coal mine in Scotland when it was hit by a massive flood five years ago. Over 500 people lost their jobs.

Its closure five years ago brought centuries of tradition to an end - but there are those who believe that Longannet and the deep coal mining industry can now be revived.

The Scottish Mineworkers Consortium say it would cost £30million to clear the floodwaters and
get the colliery working again in just two years time.

Jim Parker from the Scottish Mineworkers Consortium said: "There's nothing outrageous about this. It's only in Britain that we talk about it being impossible to reopen coal mines. I've worked all over the world and when the price of coal goes up, mines are re-opened all the time."

Mr Parker worked at Longannet. He says the mine could be extended to reach a huge reserve of coal on the other side of the Forth.

He added:"Longannet they reckon has 40 million tons. There's hundreds of millions of tons
Longannet today
underground. That's what people don't realise. We've got the equivalent of what the oil companies refer to as a giant oilfield."

Reopening the mine would require public funding. An SNP councillor has raised the idea with the new Scottish government.

Councillor Bill Walker, SNP, West Fife, said: "From Alex Salmond and Jim Mather the signals are very good, but we have to get our act together to move this one on commerically."

The mine's owners Scottish Coal say the costs involved would be prohibitive. Another local councillor has spoken to some of the men who used to work there.
Longannet Power Station


Councillor William Ferguson said: "They're saying that it's probably too late to recover the deep mine, and should we consider putting the investment into a new modern mine."

Longannet supplied Longannet Power Station. These days it gets its coal from as far afield as South-East Asia, Austrailia and South America.

Its operators Scottish Power say it will watch developments at the old mine with interest, but stress that any new locally produced coal would have to be competatively priced.

The consortium says a reopened Longannet would be cheaper than a new mine, and would produce coal at a realistic price. It wants the Government to commission a feasablity study to determine whether King Coal should come back to Fife.

[Bad Martini]

I'll tell ye whats weird - what's weird is the fact we dont use the 2 ****ing commodoties we have plenty off, can do little with other than re-use and which, we could utilise to the max instead of moaning like ferk aboot it...

Namely wind and tidal powers.

I am nae green activist type weirdo but, there MUST be something in the renewable sources....green, cheap (we have PLENTY ay both) and are surrounded by water!!! Man, if we can harness that, think how much we could save ... and remember, in the end, the coal, like ALL fossil fuels, WILL Run out....then, we're ****ed if we dont look elsewhere.

That is radge. We do nowt or little to use this natural power source...instead we moan like ferk aboot this wind all around us....instead of generating power fi it!!

Radgeness

[Iain G]

I'll tell ye whats weird - what's weird is the fact we dont use the 2 ****ing commodoties we have plenty off, can do little with other than re-use and which, we could utilise to the max instead of moaning like ferk aboot it...

Namely wind and tidal powers.

I am nae green activist type weirdo but, there MUST be something in the renewable sources....green, cheap (we have PLENTY ay both) and are surrounded by water!!! Man, if we can harness that, think how much we could save ... and remember, in the end, the coal, like ALL fossil fuels, WILL Run out....then, we're ****ed if we dont look elsewhere.

That is radge. We do nowt or little to use this natural power source...instead we moan like ferk aboot this wind all around us....instead of generating power fi it!!

Radgeness

If we could somehow harness the energy from your typing Mr Martini I think you could personally power about half o Fife... :wink::greengrin

[Bad Martini]

If we could somehow harness the energy from your typing Mr Martini I think you could personally power about half o Fife... :wink::greengrin

:greengrin

Cheeky mooonkeehhh :greengrin

If ah could harness the hot air that comes fi some factions doon the Parliament, we could have powered Bransons balloons twice roond the globe and back :devil:

[The cooler king]

Fantastic thread.

My view is that you need to take the actual persona out of the equation in determining her legacy.

That she reformed Britain as an economic and world power is I think indisputable.

That those reforms have improved the standard of living of the majority of the people of the country is also indisputable.

The enterprise culture she promoted exists to this day, with the result that many of society's most succesful people come from modest family backgrounds i.e. not old money or position.

The right to buy legislation was a tremendous success, in as far as went, but stopped short in forcing the replacement of rent stock by local councils to continue to fuel the process for future generations, with the resultant limbo that many families now find themselves in with little chance of change.

I would not want to trivialise the impact her policies had on sections of the community as the polices of her government worked through and any legacy she has is inevitably tainted by this.

However, "its not possible to make any omelette without breaking eggs" and if you contrast that approach with the fannying around of successive governments then I honestly doubt whether a piecemeal approach to the reforms needed would have succeeded.

Any cause needs someone to rally behind and in Mrs Thatcher they found a leader that produced strong emotions, one way or another.

In her defence, I would say that at least you knew what she stood for, whereas I dont think you do now with succesive leaders of either party.

That fact alone engaged more people in the democratic process than have hitherto bothered as I think may people, me included, now feel completely disenfranchised.

There is no doubt that society is more fragmented than before, but I would put this down more to society's evolution than her policies as other country's are similarly effected.

There is a national shame that those in our society who need state help dont get enough of it and on the flip side that many people engineer situations to derive state help deliberately.

Again setting aside her persona, the debate on her legacy comes down to whether you believe in socialism in all its colours through to Communism or Conservative policies which place more emphasis on personal responsibility.

Communism has failed around the world as at the end of the day there is no incentive to go the extra mile if you wont benefit in proportion to your efforts.

Recent Labour Goverment's laudable attempts at improving the NHS and Schools have failed miserably despite the massive amounts of money thrown at them as it is clear that society has become more affluent and people want to make their own choices and a one size approach just doesnt fit anymore.

Its absolutely clear to me that society absolutely must protect its vulnerable people and in this regard there must be a "safety net" and a level of care/ services available for all, who dont abuse it, from cradle to grave.

IMO Mrs Thatcher will easily go down in history as one of Britain's most imprtant leaders. I doubt that any other leader before or since will have provoked quite such a range of opinion.

Me personally, I wil be very sorry to see her pass.

Her epitaph should read " A necessary evil"

Complemented by a fantastic post.:thumbsup:

[Peevemor]

I'll tell ye whats weird - what's weird is the fact we dont use the 2 ****ing commodoties we have plenty off, can do little with other than re-use and which, we could utilise to the max instead of moaning like ferk aboot it...

Namely wind and tidal powers.

I am nae green activist type weirdo but, there MUST be something in the renewable sources....green, cheap (we have PLENTY ay both) and are surrounded by water!!! Man, if we can harness that, think how much we could save ... and remember, in the end, the coal, like ALL fossil fuels, WILL Run out....then, we're ****ed if we dont look elsewhere.

That is radge. We do nowt or little to use this natural power source...instead we moan like ferk aboot this wind all around us....instead of generating power fi it!!

Radgeness

There's a tide powered power station 5 minutes from chez moi. It's been in operation since 1967 and can provide electricity for nearly 200,000 homes. It's one of only three in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rance_tidal_power_plant

http://armorance.free.fr/barrage.htm

[Arch Stanton]

The right to buy legislation was a tremendous success, in as far as went, but stopped short in forcing the replacement of rent stock by local councils to continue to fuel the process for future generations, with the resultant limbo that many families now find themselves in with little chance of change.


That is a bit like saying that the Maginot Line was a tremendous success marred only by the fact it just didn't stretch long enough to defend France!

[Bad Martini]

There's a tide powered power station 5 minutes from chez moi. It's been in operation since 1967 and can provide electricity for nearly 200,000 homes. It's one of only three in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rance_tidal_power_plant

http://armorance.free.fr/barrage.htm

Exactly the point mate.....200,000 homes JUST by harnassing the never ending tidal power that batters the sheite oot oor shores here wid be very clever....

Tidal power is one avenue...

We also have plenty wind here.....rather than moaning it blows oor hairs aboot on our heids and our fences doon, we could use it to generate electricity tae.

Still, why bother .... we can always build a few mair nuclear power plants then figure oot how to ***** bury/hide/somehow safely deal with, the waste we have (which is toxic for a megre few thousand years) :brickwall

The country is all arse backwards..........

That said, the push for the nukes is comin fi Westminster, as wis the plan for Trident 2 AND the plan to DUMP the waste in Scotland................canny imagine why someone at ONE end of the country wid want to dump all that waste as far away from them as possible tho....I'm sure there's some reason, I reckon it'll come to me when I start using the fourth eye that has appeared in ma heid since I started drinkin water fi Torness :brickwall

ENDOF

[Bad Martini]

Here is Scottish Labours opinion on how BAD an idea it is to build MORE nuclear power stations in Scotland (and the UK in fact) until we figure out how to get rid of the waste:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4541055.stm

...and HERE is the UK GOVERNMENT telling Scottish Labour and its "policies" to GTF and undermining them:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7179579.stm

...this is a simple one no??

The "Scottish Labour" Party says one thing...

The UK Government, says another...

...Brown doesn't give a **** what Scottish Labour say or do. If his aspirations was to run his own country, he'd have stayed here ... that said, he IS running his own country where important matters are concerned.....and we call him stupid?

Hmm.

ENDOF :brickwall

[Hibbie_Cameron]

She's now in hospital and is very unwell.

Shame........................................

[GhostofBolivar]

She's now in hospital and is very unwell.

Shame........................................

NHS or private? :devil:

[Hibbie_Cameron]

NHS or private? :devil:

:thumbsup:

[hibsdaft]

will there be a minutes silence when she's dead then?

:stirrer:

[Swedish hibee]

Great thread and a v.interesting read.
Hate that she introduced the right to buy council houses, they were there for a reason. For people who couldn't afford to buy.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Lot of folks seem to think that she was a strong leader.

So were Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin. There can be no more dangerous politician than one who's mind can't be changed and who seems to lack compassion.

Its funny how the best music and film making seem to happen in times of adversity, during Thatcher's time that seems to have been the case in the UK.

The Falklands question shouldn't be should we have sent our forces out there to win them back, but rather, what the hell were we doing there in the first place. The islands are 400 miles from Argentina and thousands of miles from the UK.

This was all about oil and mineral rights in the arctic and nothing else. With the amount of money we have spent out there we could have made every one living on the islands millionaires and brought them back here.

Kuwait, oil. Iraq, oil. Sooking up to Saudi Arabia ( a repressive regime if there ever was one ) oil.

And the tragedy of it all is that its never the politicians kids who get killed over there ( O.K. name one ) just ours. The least they could do is to admit its about money and not principle.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

Many years ago on a drunken ranting night me and a friend made a pact that when she dies we would go to London and disrupt her funeral in an entirely disrespectful manner which I won’t go into.:yikes!:

Time has mellowed at least one of us to the point where I’ll probably try to wriggle my way out of honouring the pact, will still feel no sorrow when her time comes though.

[Groathillgrump]

There is a party in trafalgar square the saturday after her death.

There is indeed and I'm sure there will be many more parties in communities the length and breadth of Britain.

[Chez]

I actually do find it pretty disgusting that anyone would go out of their way to celebrate anyones death... :agree:

It would depend entirely on the circumstances and relation to the person who has died. Quite frankly, if it had been someone who has put me through years of torture, abuse and cruelty then yes, I would be celebrating their death since it would be freedom at last. For many British citizens, Margaret Thatcher was that - years of torture, abuse and cruelty to our industry and many families affected by the closure of pits, steelyards, motor car manufacturers such as British Leyland, and many other closures during the eighties and early nineties.

[AndyP]

Ah - so glad you asked. During the 70s, the British Secret Services got wind of a plot by the Argentine Governement to invade the Falkland Islands. The [Wilson] Labour Government sent a couple of naval vessels to the South Atlantic and the invasion never took place.
In the early 80s, the Argentinians,at the time ruled by the Military, decided to try again. The Secret Services again got wind of the plot. This time Thatcher decided to have a dash.
The Islands were duly invaded and the fragrant Mrs. T and her Cabinet made a patriotic show of defending a colony the length of the planet away, with the excited approval of the salavating right wing press.
The Argentinian forces were made up largely of conscripts, while the British sent Marines, Paratroopers and Special Forces.
The result of this mis-match was a relatively quick away win and a fabulous distraction from events back in Blighty.

I think that you're getting WIlson mixed up with Callaghan who threatened to send a couple of nuclear subs after the Argentines had landed on one of the outer islands, I'll dig out the relevant info when I'm back in the house but if you haven't already I'd recommend a book called "The Razors Edge", which gives a good political overview from ALL sides involved in the war.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I think that you're getting WIlson mixed up with Callaghan who threatened to send a couple of nuclear subs after the Argentines had landed on one of the outer islands, I'll dig out the relevant info when I'm back in the house but if you haven't already I'd recommend a book called "The Razors Edge", which gives a good political overview from ALL sides involved in the war.

Or "Through Fire and Water" which features a certain poster on here:wink:

[Betty Boop]

Never forgot Maggie getting ripped up for erse paper, by a housewife. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWOy23MLY1I&feature=related :greengrin

[DRYLAWHIBEES]

i hope she rots in hell like mercer same time of people he tried to murder our club and she was a war criminal.

she also let ten brave irishman starve themselve when they were only looking for polital status as prisoners which they clearly were

[AndyP]

i hope she rots in hell like mercer same time of people he tried to murder our club and she was a war criminal.

she also let ten brave irishman starve themselve when they were only looking for polital status as prisoners which they clearly were

Sands was convicted of a criminal offence, "possession of firearms" hardly a top level political crime.

NONE of the paramilitary orginisations were politically motivated they were no more than armed thugs

[Betty Boop]

Sands was convicted of a criminal offence, "possession of firearms" hardly a top level political crime.

NONE of the paramilitary orginisations were politically motivated they were no more than armed thugs Then why did the British Government recognise them as such later, and release Political Prisoners under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/northern_ireland/focus/166602.stm I remember folks calling Nelson Mandela,an armed thug and terrorist. :agree:

[AndyP]

Then why did the British Government recognise them as such later, and release Political Prisoners under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/northern_ireland/focus/166602.stm I remember folks calling Nelson Mandela,an armed thug and terrorist. :agree:

Political expedience and the desire for both sides to save face, remember that "The Troubles" was actually held under the guise of Military Aid to the Civil Power, which meant that it was a lead as a police primary. The granting of PW status(which is what PIRA et al wanted) would have then given the operational lead to the military, I doubt then that the problems would have been resolved even now.

[marinello59]

i hope she rots in hell like mercer same time of people he tried to murder our club and she was a war criminal.

she also let ten brave irishman starve themselve when they were only looking for polital status as prisoners which they clearly were

Please list their brave deeds. Genuine request.

[John Turnbull]

Quite simply the finest and strongest leader this country has had in my life time. Do you think she would have run along quietly at the end of Bush's leash?

Agree with her policies or not, nobody can deny she was great at what she did, was a strong leader and got what she wanted. For a woman in the 1970's and 80's that is no mean feat. She make Brown, Blair, Major et all look like rank amateurs!!

I will be very sad when she does pass and really hope that Scotland is not dragged through the gutter with inappropriate reactions from those who disagreed with her politics and methods.

Why not, she ran along at the the end of Reagen's.

[Hibrandenburg]

Grew up detesting the cow who stole my milk and put many of my family and friends on the scrap heap.

However I actually had a surprise meeting with her in what could have been a very compromising situation from my side and the old windbag kept her mouth shut.

History will look upon her as having been a necessary evil and strong leader.

[AndyP]

Why not, she ran along at the the end of Reagen's.

Different times, different threats. Reagan had to deal with a very belligerent and militaristic Soviet Union who were not up for negotiation of any kind (remember that this is the era of Breshnev and Andropov and the Moscow Old Guard who had survived the war).

The use of nuclear weapons in any conflict was a distinct possibility, although more than likely to be tactical/battlefield strike rather than indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets.

The only real similarity I can see between Reagan and Bush would be the respective actions in their dealings with Libya and Iraq respectively. I doubt that RR would EVER have invaded Libya whilst, IMO, Bush wanted to get a foothold into Iraq from day 1 in his presidency.

[John Turnbull]

Different times, different threats. Reagan had to deal with a very belligerent and militaristic Soviet Union who were not up for negotiation of any kind (remember that this is the era of Breshnev and Andropov and the Moscow Old Guard who had survived the war).

The use of nuclear weapons in any conflict was a distinct possibility, although more than likely to be tactical/battlefield strike rather than indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets.

The only real similarity I can see between Reagan and Bush would be the respective actions in their dealings with Libya and Iraq respectively. I doubt that RR would EVER have invaded Libya whilst, IMO, Bush wanted to get a foothold into Iraq from day 1 in his presidency.

I agree with you re Bush jnr & Iraq but, in my opinion only, the only thing that did stop Reagan mounting a full scale invasion of Libya was the Soviet Union.

Three things to remember, (1) Reagan didn't hesitate to sending in bombers after the West Berlin niteclub attack, (2) Libya holds the largest proven oil reserves in Africa & (3) Reagan's choice of running mate & vice-president for both his terms of office - Bush snr.

[ginger_rice]

My least favourite woman in the world EVER!

The only time enjoyed watching a Celtic game was the 198? final against the Arabs, when maggie appeared at hampden and took her seat she was boo'ed for what seemed like the first ten minutes of the match, the same happened again after half time, that together with about 80.000 singing a song telling her exactly where she could stick her poll tax :thumbsup:

Unfortunately we are still reaping the seeds she sowed, the worst of which in my opinion was that there was no such thing as society, it was dog eat dog as far as she was concerned and hence we now live in a country where no one gives a damn about their neighbours or anyone else for that matter. It was this policy which led to people like Mercer who think they can use their vast wealth to ride rougshod over the hopes and dreams of the majority.

My brother worked at Bogside pit just before the strike, he was nightshift when the managers came in to shut the pumps down, now a decision like that could only have been made with the say so at the highest level.

As to the Falklands, the Argentine invasion (not getting drawn into the who actually has the right to sovreignty arguement here), it was John Nott's proposed decimation of the Royal Navy, especially the decomissioning of the Falklands patrol ship HMS Endurance, which led the Junta to believe that the UK no longer had the wish to retain the islands or the will to defend them. With the end result that hundreds of young men died needlessly. The joke was that Thatcher claimed she had no inkling that an invasion was imminent, my ship was escoting HMS Invincible on excercise off Norway in Jan/Feb that year and we were warned then that something was in the offing.

Did the unions need reeling in, perhaps some of them did, although I do reckon that people like "Red" Robbo had probably had their day anyway, the sad fact of the demise and almost outlawing of the unions led to American type bully boy management, the "if you don't like it the doors over there" school of man management, I once worked for a company, very well known in central Scotland who had a policy of dismissing anyone who they discovered was a member of the EETPU.

No I for one will shed no tears when she goes.