Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

***Keith_M*** · 09-09-2017 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Andy74

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That's not what an enquiry would be about though so it's worth considering the realistic outcome we could get from this. A liong and expensive enquiry to tell us that mistakes were made in how the original rules were designed?

I think a number of people asking for this to be looked at again are expecting some sort of justice in the form of action against Rangers.

That's not going to happen.

An enquiry into the events involving Rangers / Sevco should investigate who knew what and when, and who was involved in any cover-ups or dodgy agreements made behind the scenes. There are people still in positions of authority involved in it all and, if they were guilty of wrongdoing, they should be removed.

If it's found that rules were boken and procedures not followed, then that will open the door to futher action to rectify that wrongdoing (e.g. shoud the titles have been stripped or not)

**Andycolo** · 09-09-2017 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Thecat23

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Why is it so unrealistic for fans to think more can be done? Titles should be stripped. Do you think Celtic would honestly waste time wanting another investigation if they really didn't think titles could be taken from The Rangers?

They know there is plenty that can still be taken against them, but other clubs are afraid. As usual.

A lack of foresight is not something you can accuse Celticof. The effect of stripping titles on The Rangers would not be tangible as theyare a new club. This is not the main thrust of Celtic’s approach or the Celticsupporters and shareholders who have been driving this.
The main concern is to lay bare what happened and to makesure this cannot happen again. Unless the whole corrupt mess is exposed thesame cabal will do it all again whenever necessary, and that may be soonerrather than later.
Undeniably title stripping and new club definition may bethe logical corollary of the exposure of corruption but that is not the mainobject of the exercise.

**Ozyhibby** · 09-09-2017 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by marinello59

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That's more than probable. Any enquiry will be about Scottish Football and how it is run as a whole.

What, you mean they might look at some of the payment arrangements that happened at Hearts? That would be terrible.

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**Andy74** · 09-09-2017 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Keekaboo

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An enquiry into the events involving Rangers / Sevco should investigate who knew what and when, and who was involved in any cover-ups or dodgy agreements made behind the scenes. There are people still in positions of authority involved in it all and, if they were guilty of wrongdoing, they should be removed.

If it's found that rules were boken and procedures not followed, then that will open the door to futher action to rectify that wrongdoing (e.g. shoud the titles have been stripped or not)

The door is not open and there's no prospect of it being opened. Celtic didn't ask for that either.

It's not about applying pressure for it to happen, it can't be done.

If lessons haven't been learned then an enquiry might root out something that still needs changed in current rules but that's about it. The SFA I suspect think it already has changed and an enquiry would be a waste of time and money. I don't know enough about changes made to have a view on that.

**~~Deansy~~** · 09-09-2017 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Betty Boop

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According to Chris McLaughlin there are no top flight clubs in favour of a review specific to Rangers. (apart of course from Celtic)

McLaughlin's made that statement based on speaking to 2-3 people at director-level from each club - just like 2012, their views/opinions won't match that of the fans who pay week-in and week-out.

**Ozyhibby** · 09-09-2017 05:36 PM

Email correspondence between Regan and Dickson at the time of the awarding of Rangers euro license.
https://www.scribd.com/mobile/docume...Licence-Issues

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***Caversham Green*** · 09-09-2017 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Betty Boop

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According to Chris McLaughlin there are no top flight clubs in favour of a review specific to Rangers. (apart of course from Celtic)

Interesting that he feels it necessary to say 'specific to Rangers' as that would suggest that they are not averse to some sort of enquiry. Is McLaughlin being a bit disingenuous here? In any case Celtc's tone so far seems to be more about the authorities' governance rather than 'specific to Rangers' as well.

**Andy74** · 09-09-2017 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Keekaboo

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An enquiry into the events involving Rangers / Sevco should investigate who knew what and when, and who was involved in any cover-ups or dodgy agreements made behind the scenes. There are people still in positions of authority involved in it all and, if they were guilty of wrongdoing, they should be removed.

If it's found that rules were boken and procedures not followed, then that will open the door to futher action to rectify that wrongdoing (e.g. shoud the titles have been stripped or not)

It won't. That's already been ruled on. Recent legal advice confirmed again it's a non starter.

If people are pushing for an enquiry then they should be aware of the limits of it.

***lapsedhibee*** · 09-09-2017 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Andy74

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It won't. That's already been ruled on. Recent legal advice confirmed again it's a non starter.

If people are pushing for an enquiry then they should be aware of the limits of it.

That was the SFA's legal advice, wasn't it?

**Ozyhibby** · 09-09-2017 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Andy74

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It won't. That's already been ruled on. Recent legal advice confirmed again it's a non starter.

If people are pushing for an enquiry then they should be aware of the limits of it.

The SPFL could strip the titles tomorrow. Who would challenge them? New Rangers? It's not their titles. Can't see BDO being interested in doing it on behalf of old Rangers. No money in it.

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**Ozyhibby** · 09-09-2017 11:44 PM

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**~~Tornadoes70~~** · 10-09-2017 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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The SPFL could strip the titles tomorrow. Who would challenge them? New Rangers? It's not their titles. Can't see BDO being interested in doing it on behalf of old Rangers. No money in it.

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Correct Ozy. its untrue for anybody to state legality has been an insurmountable obstacle for stripping the titles and in fact there's only ever been an unwillingness by the authorities to strip them. It was the correct action to take then and its still the correct action to take now and at any time in the future.

**marinello59** · 10-09-2017 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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The SPFL could strip the titles tomorrow. Who would challenge them? New Rangers? It's not their titles. Can't see BDO being interested in doing it on behalf of old Rangers. No money in it.

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You don't think Sevco would legally challenge any title stripping?

**Ozyhibby** · 10-09-2017 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by marinello59

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You don't think Sevco would legally challenge any title stripping?

Apart from the fact that Sevco never won them, I'm pretty sure that in the SPFL's rules there will be a clause that allows them to do just that for whatever reason it likes.
It's not really the point though. That would not get us to the truth. I want the fact the Walter Smith and Greame Souness took bribes out in the open, I want them disgraced. I want the members of the SFA who help the cover up exposed and banned from football. Only a full transparent enquiry gets us that.

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***Spike Mandela*** · 10-09-2017 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by marinello59

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You don't think Sevco would legally challenge any title stripping?

Let them. Would expose the old club/new club question to fresh legal scrutiny and would shine a spotlight on the murky secretive 5 way agreement and perhaps, perhaps might provide real transparency and truth. This could finally provide some faith that the game is run honestly and fairly in this country.

Personally I think title stripping shouldn't be our focus at this time but a real independent inquiry into football governance in this country is long overdue. The old boys network at the SFA has long since been unfit for purpose and fans' concerns that it isn't run for the benefit of all has been brought in to sharp focus over the last 5 years. The revelation of corruption at FIFA and UEFA should make us even more determined to ensure our SFA is operating above reproach.

**marinello59** · 10-09-2017 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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Apart from the fact that Sevco never won them, I'm pretty sure that in the SPFL's rules there will be a clause that allows them to do just that for whatever reason it likes.
It's not really the point though. That would not get us to the truth. I want the fact the Walter Smith and Greame Souness took bribes out in the open, I want them disgraced. I want the members of the SFA who help the cover up exposed and banned from football. Only a full transparent enquiry gets us that.

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And if a full and transparent enquiry doesn't result in the punishments you have already deemed appropriate?
The focus has to be on transparency and improving things as we move forward otherwise a lot of lawyers will have enriched themselves for nowt.

**marinello59** · 10-09-2017 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Andycolo

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A lack of foresight is not something you can accuse Celticof. The effect of stripping titles on The Rangers would not be tangible as theyare a new club. This is not the main thrust of Celtic’s approach or the Celticsupporters and shareholders who have been driving this.
The main concern is to lay bare what happened and to makesure this cannot happen again. Unless the whole corrupt mess is exposed thesame cabal will do it all again whenever necessary, and that may be soonerrather than later.
Undeniably title stripping and new club definition may bethe logical corollary of the exposure of corruption but that is not the mainobject of the exercise.

That's a more than decent summary

***Kaiser1962*** · 10-09-2017 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Deansy

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McLaughlin's made that statement based on speaking to 2-3 people at director-level from each club - just like 2012, their views/opinions won't match that of the fans who pay week-in and week-out.

Equally comments made to a BBC reporter may not accurately reflect the private discussions taking place in the boardroom.

***Kaiser1962*** · 10-09-2017 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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Apart from the fact that Sevco never won them, I'm pretty sure that in the SPFL's rules there will be a clause that allows them to do just that for whatever reason it likes.
It's not really the point though. That would not get us to the truth. I want the fact the Walter Smith and Greame Souness took bribes out in the open, I want them disgraced. I want the members of the SFA who help the cover up exposed and banned from football. Only a full transparent enquiry gets us that.

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They do, however, seem to think that they "bought" them. Another argument altogether there.

***weecounty hibby*** · 10-09-2017 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

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They do, however, seem to think that they "bought" them. Another argument altogether there.

They certainly did "buy" some of them with dodgy contracts and EBTs

**Ozyhibby** · 10-09-2017 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by marinello59

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Amd if a full and transparent enquiry doesn't result in the punishments you have already deemed appropriate?
The focus has to be on transparency and improving things as we move forward otherwise a lot of lawyers will have enriched themselves for nowt.

I agree with you 100%. I was just getting carried away with myself in regards to Smith and Souness.
Getting to the truth of what happened is this most important thing.

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**Ozyhibby** · 10-09-2017 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

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They do, however, seem to think that they "bought" them. Another argument altogether there.

They think they 'bought' them of oldco. If they have a problem, they can take that up with them.

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***Bostonhibby*** · 10-09-2017 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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They think they 'bought' them of oldco. If they have a problem, they can take that up with them.

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It's a good point since, at law, you cannot pass on an item that you cannot show you had good title to.

So if Oldco obtained anything fraudulently they couldn't actually pass it on or sell it. Sevco will be able to ask for their money back though

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**Ozyhibby** · 10-09-2017 08:50 AM

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...s-ebt-11143447

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***Kaiser1962*** · 10-09-2017 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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They think they 'bought' them of oldco. If they have a problem, they can take that up with them.

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Originally Posted by Bostonhibby

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It's a good point since, at law, you cannot pass on an item that you cannot show you had good title to.

So if Oldco obtained anything fraudulently they couldn't actually pass it on or sell it. Sevco will be able to ask for their money back though

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As I said, another argument altogether...

**~~Tornadoes70~~** · 10-09-2017 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by marinello59

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You don't think Sevco would legally challenge any title stripping?

They would have been entitled to a judicial review and there would have been a legal ruling. Far far more beneficial than the mess the governing bodies have created. I would have thought in any case the judiciary would have found against the oldco as there were grounds for stripping the titles due to the side letters etc.

**Cheshire Hibee** · 10-09-2017 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...s-ebt-11143447

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Trust me the SPFL review will be a cover up as well, Doncaster was adamant that "the Rangers" wouldn't be relegated, he tried everything to keep them in the top flight.
It will be interesting to see what spin he puts on that....

If it hadn't been for the fans reactions and the threat to boycott their own clubs matches then they would never have been relegated, at worst they would have got away with a 15 point deduction.

***Kaiser1962*** · 10-09-2017 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Cheshire Hibee

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Trust me the SPFL review will be a cover up as well, Doncaster was adamant that "the Rangers" wouldn't be relegated, he tried everything to keep them in the top flight.
It will be interesting to see what spin he puts on that....

If it hadn't been for the fans reactions and the threat to boycott their own clubs matches then they would never have been relegated, at worst they would have got away with a 15 point deduction.

They never were. They ceased to be and another entity replaced them playing their first match against Brechin registered as Sevco because Rangers FC (In Administration) were still registered with the SFA.

They were never relegated or demoted. They started again and, imo, were given preferential treatment that allowed them to enter the senior leagues so soon after their formation.

**Onion** · 10-09-2017 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...s-ebt-11143447

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And yet again positioned as a Celtic / Rangers spat when in fact every club in the land has an interest in the outcome of a review and in seeing proper governance of the game.

The SFA are not fit for purpose and are bringing our game into disrepute. They selectively poke fingers at fans, player and manager behaviour when it suits their purpose yet cannot keep their own house in order, turn a blind eye to blatant sectarianism, knowingly allow children to be put at risk and act as advocates for the OF when under threat. Amateurs and cowards.