Hearts' bigger budget. Does it actually exist?

[G B Young]

For some time now I've wondered why it seems to be an accepted fact that Hearts have a bigger player/transfer budget than Hibs. Lennon alluded to it yesterday, stating that we can't compete with Aberdeen and only 'maybe' with Hearts.

Now, I sort of get that four successive second place finishes have put Aberdeen on a pretty solid footing, but where does the supposedly bigger budget come from at Hearts? More than £3 million (and counting) over budget with their new stand, a smaller capacity stadium and not a cup run to speak of recent years, it's hard to see where the funds are coming from. The journeyman/speculative signings Hearts have already made for next season also don't smack of a club awash with funds.

Here are the only reasons I can see for this:

• The clue is in the word budget ie Budge will loosen the purse strings whenever required.
• FoH donations give them an edge (although I thought a big chunk of those donations have been channelled into the new stand?).
• A marginally bigger season ticket base (but surely not enough to make a telling difference on the transfer front?).
• Walking away from £30 million of debt via administration gave them an advantage.
• None of the above, they simply continue to spend beyond their means to satisfy their fans' claims to be a 'big' club.

[Peevemor]

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For some time now I've wondered why it seems to be an accepted fact that Hearts have a bigger transfer budget than Hibs. Lennon alluded to it yesterday, stating that we can't compete with Aberdeen and only 'maybe' with Hearts.

Now, I sort of get that four successive second place finishes have put Aberdeen on a pretty solid footing, but where does the supposedly bigger budget come from at Hearts? More than £3 million (and counting) over budget with their new stand, a smaller capacity stadium and not a cup run to speak of recent years, it's hard to see where the funds are coming from. The journeyman/speculative signings Hearts have already made for next season also don't smack of a club awash with funds.

Here are the only reasons I can see for this:

• The clue is in the word budget ie Budge will loosen the purse strings whenever required.
• FoH donations give them an edge (although I thought a big chunk of those donations have been channelled into the new stand?).
• A marginally bigger season ticket base (but surely not enough to make a telling difference on the transfer front?).
• Walking away from £30 million of debt via administration gave them an advantage.
• None of the above, they simply continue to spend beyond their means to satisfy their fans' claims to be a 'big' club.

Going by the signings they've been making, they seem to be drawing their horns in on that front.

[EH6 Hibby]

I think their accounts still show they’re spending more on their playing budget than we are. I’m sure someone who knows about these things did a comparison.

[GloryGlory]

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Going by the signings they've been making, they seem to be drawing their horns in on that front.

I know they trumpet* playing so many 16 and 17 year olds every week, but players that age will be much cheaper than older, more experienced players.

Just saying, likes.

*Well, they are a bunch of trumpets, after all!

[MrSmith]

Like the Rangers, they are deluded fools believing in their own hype! Hearts are a small team and like the Rangers, will find life very, very difficult in the not to near future. Maybe they are already?

[Jones28]

Stuart Lovell talked about this yesterday in the Edinburgh Suite and he says that their playing budget is significantly higher than ours

[Ozyhibby]

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Stuart Lovell talked about this yesterday in the Edinburgh Suite and he says that their playing budget is significantly higher than ours

Any time you hear agents talk they say that our budget appears lower although I think that may be changing.



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[Jack Hackett]

I think they tell them that to maintain the illusion of bigness. The herd swallow it whole, like everything else they tell them

[Crazyhorse]

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Any time you hear agents talk they say that our budget appears lower although I think that may be changing.



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I'm assuming with vastly increased crowds and prize money we will do a bit of catching up. We will be fishing in the same pond so it will come down to having an eye for a player and potential players wanted to work with a winner. Thank **** the yams have Mr Medals and we have Lennon.

[cocteautwin]

We've talked about this before. If you add up all the additional funds (i.e. not the day to day football club income) that have been injected in to project Hearts since they went into administration the figure comes to close to £15m: share purchase costs, Budge loans, FoH contributions, Anonymous loans, and also a £2.5m bank loan, that comes to £15m. You can deduct our equivalent of FoH of about £0.5m if you want but the number definitely comes to close to £15m. I know it's not £15m in to the playing budget but it's certainly £15m injection in to the whole project. Imagine what Neil Lennon could do with an extra £15m.

[Jack Hackett]

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We've talked about this before. If you add up all the additional funds (i.e. not the day to day football club income) that have been injected in to project Hearts since they went into administration the figure comes to close to £15m: share purchase costs, Budge loans, FoH contributions, Anonymous loans, and also a £2.5m bank loan, that comes to £15m. You can deduct our equivalent of FoH of about £0.5m if you want but the number definitely comes to close to £15m. I know it's not £15m in to the playing budget but it's certainly £15m injection in to the whole project. Imagine what Neil Lennon could do with an extra £15m.

With his eye for a player, Neil could probably turn £15m into £45m, whereas the hertz just sp**k their player budget on useless huddles and pensioners

[mjhibby]

I think you'll find there will be not much difference between ourselves and hertz budget wise but we will still be behind the dons. With them trying for the new stadium and us finishing fourth I think the gap in wages will be greatly reduced especially as our average crowd was nearly 3,000 up on theirs. I suspect like the mclaren January signing it will come down to personal choice of the player. If sjm goes there there will be a big injection of funds available. Too many people believing rumours and not basing it on fact. We spent hugely as a championship side and I suspect with season ticket sales anf possibly Europe lenny won't be struggling that much wages wise. Plus his scouts seem to be able to spot a player. No reason why we can't challenge the dons again especially as they are losing McLean and Christie.

[where'stheslope]

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We've talked about this before. If you add up all the additional funds (i.e. not the day to day football club income) that have been injected in to project Hearts since they went into administration the figure comes to close to £15m: share purchase costs, Budge loans, FoH contributions, Anonymous loans, and also a £2.5m bank loan, that comes to £15m. You can deduct our equivalent of FoH of about £0.5m if you want but the number definitely comes to close to £15m. I know it's not £15m in to the playing budget but it's certainly £15m injection in to the whole project. Imagine what Neil Lennon could do with an extra £15m.

That's my worry about them, at the moment they are spending most on infrastructure of the club, so they won't have to much money to play with on players!
Its once all the stadium is finished, that money will be freed up on players and wages!
It could be a long way off for them yet, but Budge is like Leanne, she is running the ship as tight as a crab's a***, sooner or later they will have money to spend on their playing staff!!!

[GreenOnions]

Hearts' budget may well still be bigger but, like The Rangers, they have been paying for a bloated squad comprising players brought in by Cathro but not played by Levein. Some may have been paid-off etc but those players will still have eaten up a fair bit of their available funds.

They may be playing some teenagers but probably mainly because they've wasted a lot of their wage spend and haven't been able to do what they used to - i.e. buy more players with other people's money.

[madhatter]

Hibs invest a lot in player development. Hearts pay rent on a facility they don't own. Sometimes people overlook how many Hibs players have went on to bigger and/or better things. Look how many seasons Aberdeen have been doing well, how many of their players have attracted concrete interest from down south? Very few and it has taken years. Good thing and a bad thing, playing at Hibs gets you noticed pretty quickly.

[WhileTheChief..]

For year ended 30 June 2017...

Hearts turnover £11.2m, total staff costs £5.8m, 51.78% Net Assets £11.5m

Hibs turnover £7.7m, total staff costs £4.5m, 58.44% Net Assets £19.4m

Taken from the respective accounts.

[CropleyWasGod]

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For year ended 30 June 2017...

Hearts turnover £11.2m, total staff costs £5.8m, 51.78% Net Assets £11.5m

Hibs turnover £7.7m, total staff costs £4.5m, 58.44% Net Assets £19.4m

Taken from the respective accounts.

That's misleading, though, if you're trying to compare playing budgets.

Our figures don't include takings and staff costs for catering and the shop, as they're contracted out. Pretty sure Hearts' aren't.



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[WhileTheChief..]

Sure, there will be different factors at play within the figures but it’s the best we can go by without just speculating.

Not trying to mislead anyone if that’s you meant, don’t think you did though!

[Jack Hackett]

Whatever the respective budgets are, it's a given that Hibs use theirs to better effect... not to mention a far superior entertainment value to the paying customer

[CropleyWasGod]

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Sure, there will be different factors at play within the figures but it’s the best we can go by without just speculating.

Not trying to mislead anyone if that’s you meant, don’t think you did though!

Didn't think it at all. :)

There seems to be a general consensus, though, that we spend a lot less on wages than our nearest rivals. There's not much in the public domain to back that up and, like you say, we can only really speculate.

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[Keith_M]

I think FoH has given them a reasonably big financial advantage in the last four seasons. They used a lot of that especially in the first two seasons.

[WhileTheChief..]

It was mentioned above but i think we spend an awful lot on player development.

George Craig talked about the investment the club makes in players and sells this to prospective signings. His dept won’t come cheap.

So do you count all these costs in with the player budget or is player budget purely wages and bonuses? Who knows? Each club probably runs things differently.

If we spend £100k a year on coaches, analysts and equipment, would you class that as coming out the player budget? Maybe not.

But in the bigger picture if it helps secure the signing of a player or improves players already here, how do we put a price on that? They money ultimately comes out of one big pot.

These things are rarely as straightforward as we might hope.

We pay x, they pay y, we’re better!

[jacomo]

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We've talked about this before. If you add up all the additional funds (i.e. not the day to day football club income) that have been injected in to project Hearts since they went into administration the figure comes to close to £15m: share purchase costs, Budge loans, FoH contributions, Anonymous loans, and also a £2.5m bank loan, that comes to £15m. You can deduct our equivalent of FoH of about £0.5m if you want but the number definitely comes to close to £15m. I know it's not £15m in to the playing budget but it's certainly £15m injection in to the whole project. Imagine what Neil Lennon could do with an extra £15m.

They’ve had to pay for a new main stand though!

[cocteautwin]

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They’ve had to pay for a new main stand though!

Hibs had to pay for 4 new stands.

[Eyrie]

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Hibs had to pay for 4 new stands.

And a training facility.

[Greenfly]

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They’ve had to pay for a new main stand though!

But that was all bake sales and plastic cow things.

[Bostonhibby]

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But that was all bake sales and plastic cow things.

And an owl. Don't forget Scotlands only £4000 plastic owl.

Another first

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[mjhibby]

We will receive £1.2m more from finishing fourth. Our increased attendances will be another 1.2m plus hopefully getting into Europe and a nice wee sum if celtic get to the champions league group stages. All in all there will not be much of a gap between ourselves and the dons and hertz on salaries especially if we top last seasons season ticket sales.

[AltheHibby]

In any case, it's not the size of your budget it's how you use it. 😋

[ElginHibbie]

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We will receive £1.2m more from finishing fourth. Our increased attendances will be another 1.2m plus hopefully getting into Europe and a nice wee sum if celtic get to the champions league group stages. All in all there will not be much of a gap between ourselves and the dons and hertz on salaries especially if we top last seasons season ticket sales.

Just taking prize money and season tickets then yeah we would all be much of a muchness, but Hearts having FOH and Aberdeen having Milne and others putting money (along with their own AberDNA thing starting) does give them the edge over ourselves at the moment as HSL won't be taking in anywhere near that.

If we get in Europe and can get through at least one round that should help us close the gap with Hearts, but think Aberdeen will still have significantly more even with their new stadium coming up.

Having said that I do think we have been smarter with our budget this season, so if we can continue that trend no reason we shouldn't be overtaking Aberdeen next season