Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Moulin Yarns]

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Right here’s my 3p worth.

If it’s wages ( as we and the courts see it ) tax and NI has to be paid by both employer and employee.

If it’s a Loan as Oldco and the players have said it is. Then surely this money should be recovered and shared out by all the folk who were shafted when Oldco ceased to exist?

GGTTH

I like your thinking

[CropleyWasGod]

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Deducted by who, the Revenue? If it was deducted Oldco must have paid their taxes and there there must be a record of it. I assume it would have appeared in Oldco accounts. Why all the business of side letters, etc?

It has been deemed deducted by HMRC. Those deductions are part of Oldco's creditors.

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[CropleyWasGod]

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Just out of interest, why do you think there is zero chance? Is it because it was so long ago?

Intent to defraud is a difficult thing to prove.

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[Ronniekirk]

As much as I like these updates it appears that on the Field ,The Rangers are starting to get it right , and Gerrard is doing better than many expected . If they negotiate thier next European game ,and get thrpugh to the Group Stages ,then they are back to a position where they will strengthen again in the next Transfer Window .
However the pressure is on this game ,so will be interesting to see how they handle it ,if they were to lose an early goal

[Greenfly]

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Right here’s my 3p worth.

If it’s wages ( as we and the courts see it ) tax and NI has to be paid by both employer and employee.

If it’s a Loan as Oldco and the players have said it is. Then surely this money should be recovered and shared out by all the folk who were shafted when Oldco ceased to exist?

GGTTH

Indeed ... and what's all this guff about them believing they were being given loans which don't need to be repaid? What is that? If a loan doesn't need repaid it surely can't be a loan? It's a payment and is therefore taxable. I don't believe for one moment that they were all so stupid that they couldn't see that. Those who took these payments are as greedy and culpable as the club who dished them out and as you say, there were plenty others made to pay the price. They cheated the Revenue, they cheated those who eventually lost out when Oldco folded and they cheated all Scottish football fans.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Indeed ... and what's all this guff about them believing they were being given loans which don't need to be repaid? What is that? If a loan doesn't need repaid it surely can't be a loan? It's a payment and is therefore taxable. I don't believe for one moment that they were all so stupid that they couldn't see that. Those who took these payments are as greedy and culpable as the club who dished them out and as you say, there were plenty others made to pay the price. They cheated the Revenue, they cheated those who eventually lost out when Oldco folded and they cheated all Scottish football fans.

Nobody ever claimed that the loans didn't need to be repaid. Had the Courts decided that they were indeed loans, they would have been repayable from the recipient's estates.

The Courts decided that they were net payments of salaries, which means the onus falls on the employer to make good the PAYE and NI that has been lost.

[Crazyhorse]

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Nobody ever claimed that the loans didn't need to be repaid. Had the Courts decided that they were indeed loans, they would have been repayable from the recipient's estates.

The Courts decided that they were net payments of salaries, which means the onus falls on the employer to make good the PAYE and NI that has been lost.

Yeah which was 'deemed' to be deducted. Which takes us back to the issue of the misregistration of contracts I guess.

[HoboHarry]

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Nobody ever claimed that the loans didn't need to be repaid. Had the Courts decided that they were indeed loans, they would have been repayable from the recipient's estates.

The Courts decided that they were net payments of salaries, which means the onus falls on the employer to make good the PAYE and NI that has been lost.

There's nothing quite like you wrecking our hopes and dreams with your damned knowledge and logic.........

[CropleyWasGod]

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There's nothing quite like you wrecking our hopes and dreams with your damned knowledge and logic.........

I'm a riot at parties.

My party piece is pissing in the punch

[JeMeSouviens]

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As much as I like these updates it appears that on the Field ,The Rangers are starting to get it right , and Gerrard is doing better than many expected . If they negotiate thier next European game ,and get thrpugh to the Group Stages ,then they are back to a position where they will strengthen again in the next Transfer Window .
However the pressure is on this game ,so will be interesting to see how they handle it ,if they were to lose an early goal

On the flip side - by Sunday they could be out of Europe, 4 points behind Celtc and sitting in the bottom 6.

[southern hibby]

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There's nothing quite like you wrecking our hopes and dreams with your damned knowledge and logic.........

I think CWG is really Spock, just too much logic in everyone of his posts to be a coincident........

GGTTH

[HoboHarry]

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I think CWG is really Spock, just too much logic in everyone of his posts to be a coincident........

GGTTH

Think he needs to undertake some Pon Farr instead of wrecking our beautiful thoughts.....

[CropleyWasGod]

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I think CWG is really Spock, just too much logic in everyone of his posts to be a coincident........

GGTTH

Have you ever seen Spock and Iain Ferguson in the same room?

[Deansy]

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There are 2 basic holes in HMRC's case for doing this, and I suspect any decent adviser will be making that point:-

1. by the Court finding in HMRC's favour, they have deemed Oldco to be the employer, and thus responsible for paying the tax and NI. It's irrelevant that they can't pay it. Oldco should be treated as any other employer that has gone into liquidation; after all, no-one expects the employees of any such company to pay the tax company's debts.

2. the assessment that HMRC made of Oldco's liability made the assumption that the payments to the players were net of PAYE and NI. In other words, that the players had already paid their dues. They can't be taxed twice.

This won't be as easy as that piece suggests.

You've been a constant blight on this thread since it began !. Rather than letting folk get carried away and being all happy and cheerful, you've been an ever-present with your professional know-how, facts and truth - constantly bursting people's balloons !.

meldrew.jpg

Victor Meldrew/CWG ??

[Ronniekirk]

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On the flip side - by Sunday they could be out of Europe, 4 points behind Celtc and sitting in the bottom 6.

Well that would bring a smile to my face .I think Gerrard will look at the biggar picture and put everything into getting to Group Stages Hence I would expect Celtic to beat them

[CropleyWasGod]

Just to pour some more urine on people's chips, I've done a wee bit more digging here.......

The "Follower Notices", that were referred to in the BBC piece, have to be issued within 12 months of the relevant Judicial Ruling. The Rangers case was decided by the Supreme Court on 7th July 2017.

So, if no FN's have been issued by now, they won't be at all.

I'm not saying they haven't been.... we can't know that.... but it does undermine the BBC piece a bit. It looks as if the writer hasn't even read his own article, which says this very thing in the last paragraph.

"Follower notice (FN) legislation says that HMRC has 12 months to issue FNs following a final decision. The final decision in Rangers was on 5 July 2017. We have looked at a range of schemes where the principles at stake were similar, and follower notices have been issued where appropriate."

[Crazyhorse]

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You've been a constant blight on this thread since it began !. Rather than letting folk get carried away and being all happy and cheerful, you've been an ever-present with your professional know-how, facts and truth - constantly bursting people's balloons !.

meldrew.jpg

Victor Meldrew/CWG ??

You could read CWG's notes another way. They constantly remind us that we have a society where the legislation and the legal system itself ensures that everything works in the favour of the rich and powerful. Who was it who said 'the rich get the law and the poor get prison'?

[Smartie]

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Just to pour some more urine on people's chips, I've done a wee bit more digging here.......

The "Follower Notices", that were referred to in the BBC piece, have to be issued within 12 months of the relevant Judicial Ruling. The Rangers case was decided by the Supreme Court on 7th July 2017.

So, if no FN's have been issued by now, they won't be at all.

I'm not saying they haven't been.... we can't know that.... but it does undermine the BBC piece a bit. It looks as if the writer hasn't even read his own article, which says this very thing in the last paragraph.

"Follower notice (FN) legislation says that HMRC has 12 months to issue FNs following a final decision. The final decision in Rangers was on 5 July 2017. We have looked at a range of schemes where the principles at stake were similar, and follower notices have been issued where appropriate."

That must go down as pretty poor stuff from the BBC then?

A speculative piece like that might be ok from a "keyboard bampot" but you would expect the BBC to have carried out a check like that first, would you not?

[HIGHLANDLEITHER]

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Just to pour some more urine on people's chips, I've done a wee bit more digging here.......

The "Follower Notices", that were referred to in the BBC piece, have to be issued within 12 months of the relevant Judicial Ruling. The Rangers case was decided by the Supreme Court on 7th July 2017.

So, if no FN's have been issued by now, they won't be at all.

I'm not saying they haven't been.... we can't know that.... but it does undermine the BBC piece a bit. It looks as if the writer hasn't even read his own article, which says this very thing in the last paragraph.

"Follower notice (FN) legislation says that HMRC has 12 months to issue FNs following a final decision. The final decision in Rangers was on 5 July 2017. We have looked at a range of schemes where the principles at stake were similar, and follower notices have been issued where appropriate."

Pretty sure the IR don't make it public when they issue notices. Given the way they have pursued the case, it would be highly unlikely that the notices were not issued within the timescale.
Jabba would have ensured a total news blackout.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Pretty sure the IR don't make it public when they issue notices. Given the way they have pursued the case, it would be highly unlikely that the notices were not issued within the timescale.
Jabba would have ensured a total news blackout.

Of course they don't.

My point, though, was the poor reporting. The journalist didn't even twig that we are past the deadline for issuing the notices.

(P.S. it's nothing to do with Traynor.)

[Tomsk]

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Just to pour some more urine on people's chips, I've done a wee bit more digging here.......

The "Follower Notices", that were referred to in the BBC piece, have to be issued within 12 months of the relevant Judicial Ruling. The Rangers case was decided by the Supreme Court on 7th July 2017.

So, if no FN's have been issued by now, they won't be at all.

I'm not saying they haven't been.... we can't know that.... but it does undermine the BBC piece a bit. It looks as if the writer hasn't even read his own article, which says this very thing in the last paragraph.

"Follower notice (FN) legislation says that HMRC has 12 months to issue FNs following a final decision. The final decision in Rangers was on 5 July 2017. We have looked at a range of schemes where the principles at stake were similar, and follower notices have been issued where appropriate."

That final sentence states that follower notices have been issued. I can't read it any other way.

[CropleyWasGod]

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That final sentence states that follower notices have been issued. I can't read it any other way.

I read it as FN have been issued in similar cases. That firm (Trident) can't know whether they have been issued in the RFC case.

The article itself has been poorly edited. That quote should be from Trident; HMRC wouldn't say such a thing. The last paragraph should probably be "we have contacted HMRC".

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[Greenfly]

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Nobody ever claimed that the loans didn't need to be repaid. Had the Courts decided that they were indeed loans, they would have been repayable from the recipient's estates.

The Courts decided that they were net payments of salaries, which means the onus falls on the employer to make good the PAYE and NI that has been lost.

Yes they did - according to the BBC anyway who reported on last night's news that some of the recipients were led to believe that they were being given loans which they did not have to repay.

[ancient hibee]

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Yes they did - according to the BBC anyway who reported on last night's news that some of the recipients were led to believe that they were being given loans which they did not have to repay.

Well they're hardly likely to say anything else are they?The BBC have got a non story based on a firm fishing for business.

[HIGHLANDLEITHER]

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Of course they don't.

My point, though, was the poor reporting. The journalist didn't even twig that we are past the deadline for issuing the notices.

(P.S. it's nothing to do with Traynor.)

Not sure, Traynor is over every bit of news re oldco and newco. He would be aware of notices issued to EBT recipients and maybe knows the game is up for them. He controls the west coast media and might think a slow release of the issue is required.
Obviously EBT's arose before his watch.
I don't buy into the story that HMRC can't go after the employees of failed employers. If you were told you could have half your earnings untaxed and it was a loan you would not have to repay you deserve to be chased for tax. Murray said his company would cover the tax if it went wrong, so there was doubt No sympathy even though he had the best advice from a porn movie making defrocked solicitor!

[Greenfly]

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Well they're hardly likely to say anything else are they?The BBC have got a non story based on a firm fishing for business.

Sure but the point refers to the one I made in my earlier post - there is no such thing as a loan which isn't meant to be repaid. That's a payment, not a loan. The folk who received these payments must have known that.

[ancient hibee]

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Not sure, Traynor is over every bit of news re oldco and newco. He would be aware of notices issued to EBT recipients and maybe knows the game is up for them. He controls the west coast media and might think a slow release of the issue is required.
Obviously EBT's arose before his watch.
I don't buy into the story that HMRC can't go after the employees of failed employers. If you were told you could have half your earnings untaxed and it was a loan you would not have to repay you deserve to be chased for tax. Murray said his company would cover the tax if it went wrong, so there was doubt No sympathy even though he had the best advice from a porn movie making defrocked solicitor!

So if a company you worked for went bust and it was discovered that all the tax deducted from your salary had not been paid to the Revenue you would be quite happy for the Revenue to come after you to pay it?

[Michael]

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So if a company you worked for went bust and it was discovered that all the tax deducted from your salary had not been paid to the Revenue you would be quite happy for the Revenue to come after you to pay it?

It happens. If the company screws up you still have to pay unfortunately.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Sure but the point refers to the one I made in my earlier post - there is no such thing as a loan which isn't meant to be repaid. That's a payment, not a loan. The folk who received these payments must have known that.

The point about the loans is that the recipients themselves wouldn't be repaying them. Their estates would.

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[Smartie]

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The point about the loans is that the recipients themselves wouldn't be repaying them. Their estates would.

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What exactly does this mean?