Andrew Robertson NHC

[SRHibs]

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Have a look at their honours list - perhaps in the last decade you can argue they've not had a great deal of success, but since 2000 they've won a Champions League, European Supercup, 2 x FA Cups and 3 x League Cups, and 2 x Charity Shields.

They're consistently challenging at the top of the league, they're pretty much always in Europe and they've developed some excellent players...

If that was our record since 2000, I'd be pretty damn pleased.

But they haven't won't the EPL, because there are least 4 bigger and better teams than them.

[Pete]

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Manchester City are not a bigger club than Liverpool on the world stage, nowhere near it.

"Bigger club on the world stage"...What does that even mean?

The only stages that matter are the competitions they are playing in and the players they can attract. City are bigger right now I'm afraid.

Top four is like a trophy for Liverpool nowadays but the big boys see second place as failure. 😒

[Sylar]

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But they haven't won't the EPL, because there are least 4 bigger and better teams than them.

I'd disagree with that - they consistently come up against teams who have had Arab/Russian/Asian money pumped into them, and it's not a level playing field. While they're not exactly poor, Liverpool can't financially compete with the Chelsea's, Man City's and even Arsenal's of this world, because they don't have a sugar daddy behind them.

Yet in spite of that, they continue to be ever-present at the top level of the league, and ever-present in Europe.

Leicester won the league last year, but that doesn't define them as being one of the most successful clubs in world football.

[frazeHFC]

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Liverpool have not won their domestic league for almost 3 decades.

Manchester City and particularly PSG are far bigger clubs at this current time , in the 80s Liverpool were without a doubt bigger but not in the current era.

We must have very differing views on what makes a club big. City have had a lot of recent success but in terms of the size of club (history, fan base, global appeal - as in selling out 80,000 seater stadiums full of Liverpool 'fans' in Asia, Australia etc every year) I'd say Liverpool are far bigger than City.

Obviously its the success that counts though..

[HoboHarry]

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I'd disagree with that - they consistently come up against teams who have had Arab/Russian/Asian money pumped into them, and it's not a level playing field. While they're not exactly poor, Liverpool can't financially compete with the Chelsea's, Man City's and even Arsenal's of this world, because they don't have a sugar daddy behind them.

Yet in spite of that, they continue to be ever-present at the top level of the league, and ever-present in Europe.

Leicester won the league last year, but that doesn't define them as being one of the most successful clubs in world football.

I don't think Robert Kraft is worried about where his next meal is coming from......

[Haymaker]

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I don't think Robert Kraft is worried about where his next meal is coming from......

I'm sure he doesn't worry about it but what's that got to do with Liverpool?

[HoboHarry]

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I'm sure he doesn't worry about it but what's that got to do with Liverpool?

My bad - confusing him with John W Henry. He is the current owner correct?

[Haymaker]

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My bad - confusing him with John W Henry. He is the current owner correct?

He and his sports investment fund.

[Scouse Hibee]

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"Bigger club on the world stage"...What does that even mean?

The only stages that matter are the competitions they are playing in and the players they can attract. City are bigger right now I'm afraid.

Top four is like a trophy for Liverpool nowadays but the big boys see second place as failure. 😒

Liverpool are a far bigger club on any stage than Manchester City there is no real comparison. Manchester City lol.

[Mibbes Aye]

I love threads like these where people have different definitions about the premise and then argue

If 'big' means a global name and presence, with the ability to tap into the wealth to be derived from things like global marketing and TV rights, then LFC are 'big', though there are obviously clubs bigger. LFC were eighth in the KPMG rankings for this year, in a table that is dominated by English teams, though LFC were way, way behind Man U, Real, Barca and Bayern Munich. I was surprised that Arsenal were much further ahead of them though that probably reflects Arsenal having a stronger brand since the turn of the century, particularly with players like Henry and Sanchez starring for them.

If 'big' means an illustrious history in competition, then LFC can point to that - many, many league titles in one of Europe's leading leagues and multiple European Cup winners.

If 'big' means strong in the present generation, with the ability to attract top names and compete at the business end of the major tournaments, then that's where it is more problematic. Someone made the point earlier about Liverpool having managed to win the EC since the 80s, which is equally true of Porto, who no one considers to be in the highest echelons. I think a fairer comparison is against someone like Ajax of the 70s or perhaps Benfica of the decade before, where those teams had sustained EC success over a few years, based on having a fantastic quality of players and/or tactical innovations.

In terms of competing domestically, LFC have played 27 seasons since they last won the title. On only six occasions did they finish within ten points of the eventual champions and on only two occasions did they finish within four points of the champions.

On average, since they last won the title LFC finish around 18-19 points behind the eventual champions. Around half of the seasons since they last won the title they've finished twenty points or more behind the eventual champions.

Would agree with the earlier post about transfer hierarchies - LFC at the moment can develop and sell players but I don't think they can compete with their peers in England in attracting players, not quite anyway.

So it's a mixed bag IMO - 'big' club in terms of history and stature, big club in terms of global brand. Not a 'big' club in terms of achievement over the last three decades, however there is potentially the capacity for that to change.

[Lancs Harp]

But we went 114 years without winning the Cup and we are the greatest club the world has ever seen.

[Pete]

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I love threads like these where people have different definitions about the premise and then argue

If 'big' means a global name and presence, with the ability to tap into the wealth to be derived from things like global marketing and TV rights, then LFC are 'big', though there are obviously clubs bigger. LFC were eighth in the KPMG rankings for this year, in a table that is dominated by English teams, though LFC were way, way behind Man U, Real, Barca and Bayern Munich. I was surprised that Arsenal were much further ahead of them though that probably reflects Arsenal having a stronger brand since the turn of the century, particularly with players like Henry and Sanchez starring for them.

If 'big' means an illustrious history in competition, then LFC can point to that - many, many league titles in one of Europe's leading leagues and multiple European Cup winners.

If 'big' means strong in the present generation, with the ability to attract top names and compete at the business end of the major tournaments, then that's where it is more problematic. Someone made the point earlier about Liverpool having managed to win the EC since the 80s, which is equally true of Porto, who no one considers to be in the highest echelons. I think a fairer comparison is against someone like Ajax of the 70s or perhaps Benfica of the decade before, where those teams had sustained EC success over a few years, based on having a fantastic quality of players and/or tactical innovations.

In terms of competing domestically, LFC have played 27 seasons since they last won the title. On only six occasions did they finish within ten points of the eventual champions and on only two occasions did they finish within four points of the champions.

On average, since they last won the title LFC finish around 18-19 points behind the eventual champions. Around half of the seasons since they last won the title they've finished twenty points or more behind the eventual champions.

Would agree with the earlier post about transfer hierarchies - LFC at the moment can develop and sell players but I don't think they can compete with their peers in England in attracting players, not quite anyway.

So it's a mixed bag IMO - 'big' club in terms of history and stature, big club in terms of global brand. Not a 'big' club in terms of achievement over the last three decades, however there is potentially the capacity for that to change.

Where do Hearts fit into all of this?

[Mibbes Aye]

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Where do Hearts fit into all of this?

That's a whole different level of 'big'.

A top table if you like.

Sadly, most so-called football fans don't recognise this.

It involves having previous owners who have won medals for ballroom dancing and navigating subs out the Baltic, whilst still being able to design reversible satin blousons.

It involves having a current owner who sees the irony in ripping off the support the same way the club ripped off charities - and knows the value of a footballing titan as DoF, the kind of guy who has the necessary form for withstanding the pressures of competing for a league and cup double.

It involves defending the freedom of our brave isles by fearlessly volunteering in every conflict since the Third Punic War, but critically, not trying to make mileage out of it.

And crucially, it involves the foresight to build seamless glass curtains.

[pacorosssco]

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Liverpool are a far bigger club on any stage than Manchester City there is no real comparison. Manchester City lol.

Not got trophies to compare overall but recent times won league twice. City historically well supported and have had great teams. Cant just dismiss. Can buy any Liverpool player they like. Big club id say takes past and present. Liverpool and united are most succesful and big supports but arsenal everton tottenham chelsea and less familar names newcastle Leeds Sheff W Aston Villa all big sides who if well run succesful would draw big support. Nottingham Forrest two european cups no where near size all above as example.celtic rangers ajax feynoord are huge clubs that could compete with above teams if in same money pit

[Pete]

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That's a whole different level of 'big'.

A top table if you like.

Sadly, most so-called football fans don't recognise this.

It involves having previous owners who have won medals for ballroom dancing and navigating subs out the Baltic, whilst still being able to design reversible satin blousons.

It involves having a current owner who sees the irony in ripping off the support the same way the club ripped off charities - and knows the value of a footballing titan as DoF, the kind of guy who has the necessary form for withstanding the pressures of competing for a league and cup double.

It involves defending the freedom of our brave isles by fearlessly volunteering in every conflict since the Third Punic War, but critically, not trying to make mileage out of it.

And crucially, it involves the foresight to build seamless glass curtains.

More the fool them but maybe it's better that way. Do they realise how close we came to the game collapsing when Hearts were in financial trouble?

There's a theory that Hearts actually are football.

[superfurryhibby]

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Not got trophies to compare overall but recent times won league twice. City historically well supported and have had great teams. Cant just dismiss. Can buy any Liverpool player they like. Big club id say takes past and present. Liverpool and united are most succesful and big supports but arsenal everton tottenham chelsea and less familar names newcastle Leeds Sheff W Aston Villa all big sides who if well run succesful would draw big support. Nottingham Forrest two european cups no where near size all above as example.celtic rangers ajax feynoord are huge clubs that could compete with above teams if in same money pit

I would like your posts more if you could be bothered to write in plainEnglish and not some bizarre form of newspeak. Are you a fan of George Orwell or just a lazy barsteward?

[lyonhibs]

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I would like your posts more if you could be bothered to write in plainEnglish and not some bizarre form of newspeak. Are you a fan of George Orwell or just a lazy barsteward?

I often muse similarly on this point. I reckon PacoRosso must get charged extra every time a post goes over 140 characters, like a text in the old days, and this means such irritants as prepositions and articles go out the window.

Back on topic, all this Liverpool chat is a moot point. Hearts are the big team and I know this because it's the only "banter" the JKB elite have and thus must be true.

[Sylar]

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I would like your posts more if you could be bothered to write in plainEnglish and not some bizarre form of newspeak. Are you a fan of George Orwell or just a lazy barsteward?

Perhaps English isn't a first language and that's not so easy?

[hibsbollah]

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Underwhelmed, although Liverpool need a new fullback I was hoping for a far better player than Robertson. Never in a million years is he the calibre of player required to compete for champions league places. Another bargain bucket buy from Liverpool.

Im looking at Liverpool against Hoffenheim and against a strong side that was another fantastic performance. I don't know if you're deliberately underrating their chances because you don't want to be let down, but I think they will be far too strong for Arsenal this weekend and will continue to score more than they concede.

[Since90+2]

I woudn't be surprised if Liverpool decide to make a move for Kieran Tierney at some point over the next 12 months. He would be a bargain comparable to some prices paid for current English Premier League players and he could fill a problem position for them.

[Scouse Hibee]

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I woudn't be surprised if Liverpool decide to make a move for Kieran Tierney at some point over the next 12 months. He would be a bargain comparable to some prices paid for current English Premier League players and he could fill a problem position for them.

Man Utd are looking at him I believe.

[lord bunberry]

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Im looking at Liverpool against Hoffenheim and against a strong side that was another fantastic performance. I don't know if you're deliberately underrating their chances because you don't want to be let down, but I think they will be far too strong for Arsenal this weekend and will continue to score more than they concede.

That's how I see it. I really hope they don't try and reign things in and become less cavalier. Liverpool could go a long way this season with the style of football they're playing. When in full flow there's not a team in the premiership that can live with them.

[superfurryhibby]

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Perhaps English isn't a first language and that's not so easy?

He can write perfectly good English when required. Newspeak pisses me off, as do Americanisations, like gotten, headed, snuck. Anyway, most younger Dutch folk speak better English than the average native speaker, so there

[HoboHarry]

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He can write perfectly good English when required. Newspeak pisses me off, as do Americanisations, like gotten, headed, snuck. Anyway, most younger Dutch folk speak better English than the average native speaker, so there

Having gotten to the Scottish Cup Final, we were headed for defeat until Anthony Stokes snuck in an equalizer. Does that work?

[Smartie]

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That's how I see it. I really hope they don't try and reign things in and become less cavalier. Liverpool could go a long way this season with the style of football they're playing. When in full flow there's not a team in the premiership that can live with them.

A large proportion of Premier League games are tentative garbage.

When Liverpool are on you know that as a neutral you are going to be entertained, a bit like Keegan's Newcastle used to be. I rarely watch games not involving Hibs these days but I make a point of watching Liverpool when they're on.

It would be great if a really cavalier team could actually win the league. The problem is, no team ever wins anything shipping silly goals and Liverpool continue to ship far too many really silly goals. As do Arsenal. As do Man City.

It's great for us neutrals but I could understand why Liverpool fans might not be entirely convinced.

Especially as the pragmatic Mr Mourinho looks to have put a decent Man United team together. They won't lose many silly goals.

[lord bunberry]

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A large proportion of Premier League games are tentative garbage.

When Liverpool are on you know that as a neutral you are going to be entertained, a bit like Keegan's Newcastle used to be. I rarely watch games not involving Hibs these days but I make a point of watching Liverpool when they're on.

It would be great if a really cavalier team could actually win the league. The problem is, no team ever wins anything shipping silly goals and Liverpool continue to ship far too many really silly goals. As do Arsenal. As do Man City.

It's great for us neutrals but I could understand why Liverpool fans might not be entirely convinced.

Especially as the pragmatic Mr Mourinho looks to have put a decent Man United team together. They won't lose many silly goals.

Normally I would agree with you, but with so many teams able to take points of each other, Liverpool could have a real chance of the title. Man Utd could bore their way to the title, but I would love to see Liverpool do it.
The comparison with Keegans's Newcastle is an excellent one, Arsenal aren't nearly as cavalier as Liverpool or that great Newcastle team.

[Smartie]

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Normally I would agree with you, but with so many teams able to take points of each other, Liverpool could have a real chance of the title. Man Utd could bore their way to the title, but I would love to see Liverpool do it.
The comparison with Keegans's Newcastle is an excellent one, Arsenal aren't nearly as cavalier as Liverpool or that great Newcastle team.

No, I don't think Arsenal are as cavalier - they'll lose too many goals to compete, not through being too cavalier but through being totally inept defensively.

I agree, it would be great to see Liverpool do it. But will they manage to beat the big, pragmatic teams in the big games? I could see a streetwise Mourinho team just picking them off. Even this early I think it looks like Mourinho has built his favourite kind of 2-0 win machine.

Even the stuffy, tricky teams like WBA and Stoke might frustrate Liverpool. Do Liverpool have enough to grind out wins when things don't go their way or when they don't play particularly well?

Liverpool will be the choice of the romantics. But the pragmatists have a better track record of getting over the line.

[superfurryhibby]

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Having gotten to the Scottish Cup Final, we were headed for defeat until Anthony Stokes snuck in an equalizer. Does that work?

Caaaaaaaahhhhnnnnttttttttt. Gonnae no dae that.

Will we change the words of the Stokes song to....... Defence terrified, Stokes, fire.....more, score, more, score, Stokes, fire, na, na...........

Back on topic, Liverpool have a pedigree and footballing heritage that most clubs can only dream of. They will always be giants of the game and whilst the lack of a League championship has become a bit of an albatross for them, all the money of a Chelsea or City can't buy them history. I like the fact that Liverpool is a football city, through and through. For somewhere with a population of half a million it's quite remarkable that they have produced two teams with the level of success they have.

[Smartie]

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Caaaaaaaahhhhnnnnttttttttt. Gonnae no dae that.

Will we change the words of the Stokes song to....... Defence terrified, Stokes, fire.....more, score, more, score, Stokes, fire, na, na...........

Back on topic, Liverpool have a pedigree and footballing heritage that most clubs can only dream of. They will always be giants of the game and whilst the lack of a League championship has become a bit of an albatross for them, all the money of a Chelsea or City can't buy them history. I like the fact that Liverpool is a football city, through and through. For somewhere with a population of half a million it's quite remarkable that they have produced two teams with the level of success they have.

When I was a kid Liverpool were winning everything.

Man United hadn't won the league in ages and only had the odd cup here or there to show for their efforts. They always had loads of fans and big crowds though, and they were always respected as a big club who just hadn't won much for a while.

It's a bit like Liverpool now. They haven't won much for a while (although there has been the odd notable European Cup over the past few decades) but they're still a massive brand and a big club with huge appeal. Big players will still want to play for them. They might not be able to offer the ££££££ that City or Chelsea can, but they can still offer players an awful lot.

And that's before you get into the whole "global football" thing. Liverpool must still be up there with the biggest of them on that front.

Or am I just an 80s child who is a bit out of touch?

[easty]

Liverpool have absolutely no chance of winning the league, with a ***** keeper and a rank rotten defence. Once they lose Coutinho, they'll have even less chance.

They'll be lucky to get top 4.