Hibs need a formal system for releasing unused season tickets

[SunshineOnLeith]

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I feel like its almost like paying to go to the cinema or the theatre and you nip out to visit the toilet and miss some of the show, then asking at the box office for some money back or money off your next visit. You just wouldn’t do it.

It's absolutely nothing like that though, is it?

[BlackSheep]

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It's absolutely nothing like that though, is it?

Out of all the comparisons I have read on here it’s the closest I can think of... can you explain why you think I’m off the mark?

[BlackSheep]

Just to summarise my POV on this matter, as I know it’s become quite long winded (I’m currently recovering from knee surgery so have had little better to do the past few days!)

I agree that an incentive would make the simple task of releasing one’s ST a little more enticing to some, but I feel that it is unnecessary and that the solution would most likely be better visibility and clarity from hibs on how to do so. Their recent mention of how to do so in social media updates in relation to the Aberdeen match is a good start.

Where I am failing to agree with some is that some folk feel that they should be entitled to some form of recompense for releasing their unused seat, this I do not agree with as I feel it puts your own benefit before the club.

My suggestion is to test the water by making it more visible on how to release/donate an unused ST.
if there is not a good take up then fans reps could always formally survey fans groups/forums to see why. Perhaps the only way to bolster the numbers through the gate on sell out games is to pay us to give others the opportunity to watch in our place, but that to me seems against the spirit of supporting a club.

The other issues around this topic like children’s ST pricing etc is another kettle of fish.

[SunshineOnLeith]

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Out of all the comparisons I have read on here it’s the closest I can think of... can you explain why you think I’m off the mark?

Because nothing about the two scenarios are remotely similar.

The cinema doesn't re-sell your seat if you nip out to the toilet.

You don't buy a cinema ticket which guarantees you the same seat at every screening in a year.



You're all over the shop in this thread, it's pretty entertaining tbf so please carry on.

[BlackSheep]

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Because nothing about the two scenarios are remotely similar.

The cinema doesn't re-sell your seat if you nip out to the toilet.

You don't buy a cinema ticket which guarantees you the same seat at every screening in a year.



You're all over the shop in this thread, it's pretty entertaining tbf so please carry on.

Ha, this is where you are misinterpreting my comparison. I actually think my example is certainly more similar than comparing the situation to drivers speeding and the use of speed cameras as another poster suggested.... Nothing is quite as comparable so I’ll explain my point.

The suggestion that one should receive a reward or a partial refund for not fully using their ST is what I was trying to demonstrate.

By thinking of the full movie/show as your full ST I was suggesting that when you choose to leave temporarily for whatever reason (missing a match on your ST) you would never expect to receive money off your next ticket or a partial refund would you? What happens to your seat in both scenarios has no bearing on these expectations of financial recompense. Regardless if it is empty or not during your voluntary absence is outside of this comparison. In an insane world if it turned out the cinema was reselling your seat during your absence, even for a few minutes then we could discuss whether or not one deserved to be compensated, but the scales are too off for that and you would have to pretend you were able to inform the cinema pre-movie of your intended voluntary absence.

So why should one expect similar on a larger scale?

You can’t throw in the tangible issue of reselling the seat in the comparison cos it doesn’t quite fit (of course the cinema are not expecting to resell your seat during your short absence, that’s just ridiculous).


ps I actually don’t think I have been all over the shop at all.... my previous summary has remained true throughout my posts, I have just tried to respond to a variety of other viewpoints.

Glad I can entertain though, it’s certainly keeping me sane (debatable I know) as I endure my ‘Rear Window-esque’ current situation.

[Hibbyradge]

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Do you see my point yet?

Yip.

The empty seats are worth it.

Getting a fiver back for something you paid £20 for is a profit.

And you should be able to sell your seat if you go for a wizz during a film.

That about right?

As I said, it's academic. Hibs will do nothing and the empty seats will remain.

[SunshineOnLeith]

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You can’t throw in the tangible issue of reselling the seat in the comparison cos it doesn’t quite fit (of course the cinema are not expecting to resell your seat during your short absence, that’s just ridiculous).

I agree, comparing going to the toilet during a film to missing a football match is ridiculous.

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By thinking of the full movie/show as your full ST I was suggesting that when you choose to leave temporarily for whatever reason (missing a match on your ST)

Oh.

[BlackSheep]

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Yip.

The empty seats are worth it.

Getting a fiver back for something you paid £20 for is a profit.

And you should be able to sell your seat if you go for a wizz during a film.

That about right?

As I said, it's academic. Hibs will do nothing and the empty seats will remain.

You are are definitely twisting my words to fit your purpose in this summary, the only thing that is apparent here is that it’s all about perspective.

I stated the empty seats are only worth it if it stops money going FROM the club into FANS pockets.

If you see your ST as a game-by-game purchase to you can are paying £20 per game and not £360 for 1 Season. Any return on your investment into a ST should be seen as you making a money back FROM the club, I realise that using the term profit isn’t correct here as it’s less than your initial outlay.

The reselling your cinema seat point is mute as I was clear in saying that I was demonstrating the expectation of refund or reward based on voluntary absence.

and finally,

You may be correct that Hibs may not go further (you cannot say “will do nothing” as they have pointed out that unused STs can be released in their recent social media comms), but we as fans and more importantly SUPPORTERS could do a little to spread the word of the ease of releasing/DONATING unused STs back for resale - to benefit the CLUB not the individual fan.

Simple really.

i could try and be smart and incorrectly summarise your points to say...

If a fan doesn’t attend a match then let’s give them some money back, cos that’s the only way to guarantee a full stadium for big games. Instead of just being informative let’s just throw money at the problem, cos we are minted.

[BlackSheep]

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I agree, comparing going to the toilet during a film to missing a football match is ridiculous.



Oh.

Maths isn’t your strong point is it?

Missing a few matches for your total ST is actually reasonably similar percentage to visiting the toilet during a movie.

[Liberal Hibby]

Like Hibbyradge I'm another out of towner going to Aberdeen on Saturday (unlike him it's my first game since 'that day') and I'm delighted we're in a position that we spend pages discussing how to fill empty but paid for seats.

I suspect it's slightly off topic - but I'd like to see two other initiatives by the club:

1. A non-allocated seats area. A part of the ground where regulars can take irregular mates - part of the deal would be that the season ticket holder's regular seat would be resold. I think Swansea City have a similar scheme.

2. A 'Carnet' ticket - this is where you could buy tickets for say 5 or 10 games and use them whenever you were in town (it would probably have to be restricted to category B games).

However I suspect we are getting to the stage that we don't have enough spare capacity for either and we have to really look at ways of persuading non-attending season ticket holders to make their seats available more often.

[SunshineOnLeith]

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Maths isn’t your strong point is it?

What an odd thing to say.

[SunshineOnLeith]

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2. A 'Carnet' ticket - this is where you could buy tickets for say 5 or 10 games and use them whenever you were in town (it would probably have to be restricted to category B games).

I always liked this idea, but I think the problem with it for a club of our size is it would actually lose money, as people would buy the 'carnet' ticket instead of a season ticket, in greater numbers than the uptake of 'new' ticket holders buying them.

Then you'd have the whole argument about where they come in the queue for Tynie tickets

[BlackSheep]

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Like Hibbyradge I'm another out of towner going to Aberdeen on Saturday (unlike him it's my first game since 'that day') and I'm delighted we're in a position that we spend pages discussing how to fill empty but paid for seats.

I suspect it's slightly off topic - but I'd like to see two other initiatives by the club:

1. A non-allocated seats area. A part of the ground where regulars can take irregular mates - part of the deal would be that the season ticket holder's regular seat would be resold. I think Swansea City have a similar scheme.

2. A 'Carnet' ticket - this is where you could buy tickets for say 5 or 10 games and use them whenever you were in town (it would probably have to be restricted to category B games).

However I suspect we are getting to the stage that we don't have enough spare capacity for either and we have to really look at ways of persuading non-attending season ticket holders to make their seats available more often.

Any and every suggestion or solution to this issue is more than welcome Liberal, thank you.

In relation to your first point, it’s quite similar when a season ticket holder upgrades their ticket to a hospitality ticket... the club then resell your usual seat. The non allocated system you suggest would likely work like that.

[Hibbyradge]

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You are are definitely twisting my words to fit your purpose in this summary, the only thing that is apparent here is that it’s all about perspective.

I stated the empty seats are only worth it if it stops money going FROM the club into FANS pockets.

If you see your ST as a game-by-game purchase to you can are paying £20 per game and not £360 for 1 Season. Any return on your investment into a ST should be seen as you making a money back FROM the club

I have bought a ticket for the game on Saturday.

I paid £22 for it, I think.

If I can't go, I'll give it back to the club to resell.

If they do resell it, I get a fiver towards my next ticket. If they don't, I get nothing.

So, Hibs have had £22 from me. They get another £22 from reselling my ticket.

I get £5 credit.

Hibs net £37.

Me net £ -17.

How am I making money from the club?

Now, extrapolate that into a season ticket.

[BlackSheep]

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What an odd thing to say.

Interesting that you keep editing my posts in your quotes to disclude important aspects of my responses.

[SunshineOnLeith]

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Interesting that you keep editing my posts in your quotes to disclude important aspects of my responses.

I know, it's almost as if I'm using the quote function on the message board to pick up the parts I want to respond to.

Bonkers.

[hibbysam]

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I have bought a ticket for the game on Saturday.

I paid £22 for it, I think.

If I can't go, I'll give it back to the club to resell.

If they do resell it, I get a fiver towards my next ticket.

So, Hibs have had £22 from me. They get another £22 from reselling my ticket.

I get £5 credit.

Hibs net £37.

Me net £ -17.

How am I making money from the club?

Now, extrapolate that into a season ticket.

You buy two season tickets, one for you and one for the wee man. You ya yours every week. You buy his for £25. He rarely goes by for the big 6 games you resell his ticket to the club. You have already had a discounted ticket from the club, you will then get 6 x £5 credits. You paid £25, gained £30, £5 profit...

The club presumably make nothing from these cheap seasons (struggle to see how the could at £1.30 per game) so the resale would just about cover that, but they’re also paying out £30 to you.

Again, it’s opinions, you think people should be incentivised, I and others don’t and feel the club gaining maximum £££ to buy the eat payers should be the incentive.

[BlackSheep]

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I have bought a ticket for the game on Saturday.

I paid £22 for it, I think.

If I can't go, I'll give it back to the club to resell.

If they do resell it, I get a fiver towards my next ticket.

So, Hibs have had £22 from me. They get another £22 from reselling my ticket.

I get £5 credit.

Hibs net £37.

Me net £ -17.

How am I making money from the club?

Now, extrapolate that into a season ticket.

because I feel that the numbers should look more like this.

£22 Initial outlay

You then choose not to attend the game, for whatever reason.

The club resells your ticket for £22.

Your net -£22 (same as if you had attended, after all its was your choice to miss the game)

Hibs net £44

Now extrapolate that over a ST and multiply by how ver man6 fans regularly miss matches they have already paid for through the purchase of their ST.

See £5 back to you multiplied by all the times you CHOOSE to miss a match and then further multiplied by the number of fans who regularly do the same is actually a vast amount of money.

Lets say the average is 500 fans a week for say 20 home fixtures a season, that’s 10,000 seats resold a season.

Multiply that by £22, that’s £220,000.

If you take £5 away for non attendance credit for each of these fans that’s a big chunk of potential wages for a new signing or signing on fees or even a transfer fee.

This is my point.

The logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many (the club and its fan base) outweigh the needs of the few (the individuals racking up a discount of next year ST, thus doing the club out of further funds!).

[BlackSheep]

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I know, it's almost as if I'm using the quote function on the message board to pick up the parts I want to respond to.

Bonkers.

Thus making my responses seem less impactful or insightful to your sole benefit. Very good.

[Hibbyradge]

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You buy two season tickets, one for you and one for the wee man. You ya yours every week. You buy his for £25. He rarely goes by for the big 6 games you resell his ticket to the club. You have already had a discounted ticket from the club, you will then get 6 x £5 credits. You paid £25, gained £30, £5 profit...

The club presumably make nothing from these cheap seasons (struggle to see how the could at £1.30 per game) so the resale would just about cover that, but they’re also paying out £30 to you.

Again, it’s opinions, you think people should be incentivised, I and others don’t and feel the club gaining maximum £££ to buy the eat payers should be the incentive.

The club would only give a resell bounty if the ticket was sold.

Maybe a fiver for adult seats, £1 for kids. That can be determined.

The "bounty" discount is used towards a new, similar, season ticket.
What's the problem with that?

As has been pointed out, EPL clubs do this. Why not Hibs?

[BlackSheep]

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You buy two season tickets, one for you and one for the wee man. You ya yours every week. You buy his for £25. He rarely goes by for the big 6 games you resell his ticket to the club. You have already had a discounted ticket from the club, you will then get 6 x £5 credits. You paid £25, gained £30, £5 profit...

The club presumably make nothing from these cheap seasons (struggle to see how the could at £1.30 per game) so the resale would just about cover that, but they’re also paying out £30 to you.

Again, it’s opinions, you think people should be incentivised, I and others don’t and feel the club gaining maximum £££ to buy the eat payers should be the incentive.

Finally someone who sees it how I see it. Albeit much more concisely 😂

[Hibbyradge]

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because I feel that the numbers should look more like this.

£22 Initial outlay

You then choose not to attend the game, for whatever reason.

The club resells your ticket for £22.

Your net -£22 (same as if you had attended, after all its was your choice to miss the game)

Hibs net £44

Now extrapolate that over a ST and multiply by how ver man6 fans regularly miss matches they have already paid for through the purchase of their ST.

See £5 back to you multiplied by all the times you CHOOSE to miss a match and then further multiplied by the number of fans who regularly do the same is actually a vast amount of money.

Lets say the average is 500 fans a week for say 20 home fixtures a season, that’s 10,000 seats resold a season.

Multiply that by £22, that’s £220,000.

If you take £5 away for non attendance credit for each of these fans that’s a big chunk of potential wages for a new signing or signing on fees or even a transfer fee.

This is my point.

The logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many (the club and its fan base) outweigh the needs of the few (the individuals racking up a discount of next year ST, thus doing the club out of further funds!).

If Hibs don't resell, and make money from doing so, no discount is payable.

Have you missed that point?

[BlackSheep]

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The club would only give a resell bounty if the ticket was sold.

Maybe a fiver for adult seats, £1 for kids. That can be determined.

The "bounty" discount is used towards a new, similar, season ticket.
What's the problem with that?

As has been pointed out, EPL clubs do this. Why not Hibs?

EPL clubs do this as a gesture because they can afford it!! SPFL teams need every penny!

[BlackSheep]

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If Hibs don't resell, and make money from doing so, no discount is payable.

Have you missed that point?

Not at all... I have said let’s average 500 tickets being resold every week. It may be higher than the truth but it just shows the numbers we are talking about!

The whole calculation is based on resold tickets... see line 4 of my response!

[Hibbyradge]

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EPL clubs do this as a gesture because they can afford it!! SPFL teams need every penny!

You're not paying attention.

If I return my ticket, and it's not sold, I get nothing.

[Hibbyradge]

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Not at all... I have said let’s average 500 tickets being resold every week. It may be higher than the truth but it just shows the numbers we are talking about!

The whole calculation is based on resold tickets... see line 4 of my response!

If Hibs resell, they make money.

[BlackSheep]

We are not asking Hibs to add this as a revenue stream to factor their budget on every year... so whether the tickets are resold or not isn’t the point, the point is that if they do I fact resell this many tickets a season look at how much ‘bonus’ funds we can help generate, just from being what some may consider ‘charitable’ and not greedy!

[BlackSheep]

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If Hibs resell, they make money.

EXACTLY!!!

and if no ‘incentive’ is returned what happens then???

HIBS MAKE MORE MONEY!!!

[BlackSheep]

Let’s put it this way....

If the process became incentivised lie you suggest and £5 was returned to me should I miss a game and the club resell my seat (whether in credit or in actual cash), I would donate that incentive back to the club. No questions asked!

That’s the difference!

[Hibbyradge]

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We are not asking Hibs to add this as a revenue stream to factor their budget on every year... so whether the tickets are resold or not isn’t the point, the point is that if they do I fact resell this many tickets a season look at how much ‘bonus’ funds we can help generate, just from being what some may consider ‘charitable’ and not greedy!

And we'll continue to watch the empty seats, week after week.

At least we'll be pure.