Neil Lennon - best manager since...

[WeeRussell]

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Think this is all a bit premature.

Fenlon had us third, Yogi had us third, McLeish and Mogga finished third.

Im excited about him, and i like him, but lets not get carried away.

Spot-on.. and we're still odds-against to get third.

Also.. Stubbs.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Did Stubbs do what he was expected to do?

No, he massively exceeded any expectations. **** promotion, on my death bed I won't be moaning about finishing 3rd behind Falkirk, I'll still be thinking about the day we won the cup.

[pacoluna]

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No, he massively exceeded any expectations. **** promotion, on my death bed I won't be moaning about finishing 3rd behind Falkirk, I'll still be thinking about the day we won the cup.

Aye because the Scottish cup doesn't clouding your judgement.

[Peevemor]

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Turnbull's longevity also counts in his favour. In his full seasons as boss we finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 4th, 5th. This at a time, as you say, when Celtic were at their peak. He stayed on too long and prior to his departure he had us bound for relegation, but at his best there were few to match him. He won us a major trophy plus a couple of Drybrough Cups, took us to three other domestic finals and last eight of the Cup Winners Cup.

More recently, when managers don't tend to stay longer than a handful of seasons, Tony Mowbray's achievement in finishing 3rd and 4th deserves a lot of credit.

I don't think you can properly compare managers pre and post Bosman - it's not at all the same job. Players generally stayed with clubs far longer then (apart from those either really crap or really good) and the difference in wages between the likes of Hibs and the OF and even the English top flight was far smaller.

I'm not criticising Eddie Turnbull because I know that club chairman, especially pre-Bosman, had a huge say in what players were to be sold and when, but the team Turnbull himself assembled (as opposed to mostly inherited) were relegated.

There's no way of knowing if the "tornados" would have won the league under Mowbray, Stubbs or Lennon for example.

It's a huge subject and unfortunately I don't have time to set out all my thoughts.

[Hibbyradge]

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Aye because the Scottish cup isn't clouding your judgement.

Of course it's clouding his judgement. It's clouding mine too.

I'd almost have accepted relegation from the championship in return for that Scottish Cup win.

Stubbs is a legend forever more. Mowbray and McLeish were good managers, arguably very good, but no more than that.

Lennon? Who knows what he may achieve, but unless it's spectacular, it'll not be up there with Stubbs triumph on the 9th of May 2016.

[erin go bragh]

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Statistically speaking he is the best since Stubbs

Stubbs had 58% win ratio
Lennon has 50.67% win ratio
Best before that was Wille Macfarlane in 69/70 with 51.76%

That's from Wikipedia so might not be 100% accurate.

You would think Hugh Shaw would have the best win ratio . We won 3 titles and 2 runners up with him at the helm .

[pacoluna]

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Of course it's clouding his judgement. It's clouding mine too.

I'd almost have accepted relegation from the championship in return for that Scottish Cup win.

Stubbs is a legend forever more. Mowbray and McLeish were good managers, arguably very good, but no more than that.

Lennon? Who knows what he may achieve, but unless it's spectacular, it'll not be up there with Stubbs triumph on the 9th of May 2016.

I ain't saying he's not a legend, I'm just saying with his remit he never done a particularly good job. Therefore I don't think he was a particularly good manager.

[neil7908]

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I ain't saying he's not a legend, I'm just saying with his remit he never done a particularly good job. Therefore I don't think he was a particularly good manager.

I think this is harsh - would his remit not have covered progress in the cups?

FWIW I'm delighted with Lennon and was disappointed with our league form under Stubbs but I don't think it's fair to just take it out of discussions regarding his performance.

If say Tottenham finish 6th this season but win the Champions League don't you think their fans would be delighted?

I think Alan needs to take another job to really test if he's a quality manager. He could end up being a bit of a Di Matteo type, or go onto even greater success, it's too early to tell.

[matty_f]

I've said it before but IMHO it's so churlish to write off Stubbs' achievements because he didn't get us promoted. In fact, I would say that there is a case to say that Stubbs' overachievement in the cups was what prevented us from being promoted.

Stubbs took us, as a Championship side, to two cup finals in the same season and won the Scottish Cup, a defining point in the club's history.

It's too easy to take the black and white stance and say that his time was tarnished because we didn't get promoted, without context that's probably a fair argument. However, as soon as you put context into the league performance (right down to a ridiculous refereeing decision to not give a penalty in the play-off), you see how close he actually got to having a season that would have been arguably unsurpassed in any era at the club (IMHO). `

Lennon is definitely the best manager since Stubbs, though.

[Northernhibee]

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Aye because the Scottish cup doesn't clouding your judgement.

So you're allowed to take some aspects of his performance into account but not others?

Stubbs only mistake was building a very good, technical top flight side in a league that required big lumps to break down an eleven man defence.

Only one team from the top flight beat us over 90 minutes (Ross County) under Stubbs. By the end of January. in our cup winning season we'd beaten as many SPL teams as Dundee United had.

Stubbs was a ****ing brilliant manager imo.

[pacoluna]

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I've said it before but IMHO it's so churlish to write off Stubbs' achievements because he didn't get us promoted. In fact, I would say that there is a case to say that Stubbs' overachievement in the cups was what prevented us from being promoted.

Stubbs took us, as a Championship side, to two cup finals in the same season and won the Scottish Cup, a defining point in the club's history.

It's too easy to take the black and white stance and say that his time was tarnished because we didn't get promoted, without context that's probably a fair argument. However, as soon as you put context into the league performance (right down to a ridiculous refereeing decision to not give a penalty in the play-off), you see how close he actually got to having a season that would have been arguably unsurpassed in any era at the club (IMHO). `

Lennon is definitely the best manager since Stubbs, though.

How can anyone suggest Stubbs overachieved, that's just ludicrous.

[matty_f]

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How can anyone suggest Stubbs overachieved, that's just ludicrous.

Two cup finals in a season, winning one of them, isn't better than expected?

[pacoluna]

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So you're allowed to take some aspects of his performance into account but not others?

Stubbs only mistake was building a very good, technical top flight side in a league that required big lumps to break down an eleven man defence.

Only one team from the top flight beat us over 90 minutes (Ross County) under Stubbs. By the end of January. in our cup winning season we'd beaten as many SPL teams as Dundee United had.

Stubbs was a ****ing brilliant manager imo.

It's always ifs and buts with Stubbs. Almost as if we are making up excuses because he brung us the holy grail which I will be enterally grateful for.

[hibsbollah]

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How can anyone suggest Stubbs overachieved, that's just ludicrous.

Are you maybe confusing overachieved with underachieved? He definitely overachieved, I don't understand your incredulity.

[Northernhibee]

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It's always ifs and buts with Stubbs. Almost as if we are making up excuses because he brung us the holy grail which I will be enterally grateful for.

His signings were largely very good, the football entertaining, none of the off field shenanigans or trouble and he is a winner too. You don't need to make excuses for him, Stubbs was and is the best manager we've had in many years.

[yonder1875]

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How can anyone suggest Stubbs overachieved, that's just ludicrous.

Not ludicrous at all, guy won us the cup and was very unlucky not to be promoted in the same season. Stubbs laid the foundations for the good work we are doing now.

[Halmyre Hibee]

In my opinion Neil Lennon is the best Manager since Eddie Turnbull. He is high profile, very experienced and we get a lot of publicity. I really hope we can hold onto him for many years to come. Stubbs was a great fit and won us the Scottish Cup something that so called better Managers could not. I also enjoyed the style of football we played under Collins, Mowbray & McLeish.

My favourite era was under Turnbull but he was a stubborn git and broke up my heroes far too early.

Since I started watching Hibs only Shankly, Turnbull, Miller, McLeish, Mowbray and Stubbs have been in charge for 100 games or more.


http://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/manager_timeline.php

[jacomo]

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I ain't saying he's not a legend, I'm just saying with his remit he never done a particularly good job. Therefore I don't think he was a particularly good manager.

They say football is all about opinions. Even rubbish ones like this.

[SideBurns]

Stubbs definitely overachieved by winning the Scottish Cup - he also overachieved by reaching the League Cup Final, given we had to beat Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, and St.Johnstone to get there. Whether he underachieved in not getting us out of the Championship is a moot point, but given that he was competing with Hearts and Rangers in the first season, and then the Huns in the second season, it can at least argued that it was always going to be difficult!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

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I don't think you can properly compare managers pre and post Bosman - it's not at all the same job. Players generally stayed with clubs far longer then (apart from those either really crap or really good) and the difference in wages between the likes of Hibs and the OF and even the English top flight was far smaller.

I'm not criticising Eddie Turnbull because I know that club chairman, especially pre-Bosman, had a huge say in what players were to be sold and when, but the team Turnbull himself assembled (as opposed to mostly inherited) were relegated.

There's no way of knowing if the "tornados" would have won the league under Mowbray, Stubbs or Lennon for example.

It's a huge subject and unfortunately I don't have time to set out all my thoughts.

Very good point re Bosman.

Clubs at our level are now effectively working on two year cycles - the one we are on at the moment will probably end this summer with mcginn and maybe mcgeouch leaving.

[hibbysam]

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It's always ifs and buts with Stubbs. Almost as if we are making up excuses because he brung us the holy grail which I will be enterally grateful for.

Which other manager got us to two cup finals in one season? We came within two horrendous decisions from the play off final after having the worst schedule I can remember. He laid the foundations in regards to bringing back a winning mentality to our club and took us from having 8k through the gate week in week out to nearly 12k season ticket holders when he left.

[Onion]

Lennon's a decent manager, no more, no less. We've been so used to having idiots in charge at Hibs, there's a tendency to over-praise when something reasonable happens. Hibs are not "punching above their weight" as most of the media would have everyone believe and Neil Lennon is not some god we're lucky to have. All he has done is not **** it up.

Hibs have an excellent squad of players (most of whom were at the club before NL took over) who were used to winning matches and silverware. Huns and Yams are in a poor state, with arguably the worst squads they've had in years.

Given our income, the state that some other clubs are in, and the bounce back effect of promotion, 4th place feels about right for Hibs at this point. Anything less should be seen as underperforming. If Lennon takes us to 3rd or 2nd, then that would be something else.

[Onion]

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Which other manager got us to two cup finals in one season? We came within two horrendous decisions from the play off final after having the worst schedule I can remember. He laid the foundations in regards to bringing back a winning mentality to our club and took us from having 8k through the gate week in week out to nearly 12k season ticket holders when he left.

You missed the rebuilding of the entire squad following Butcher and relegation. As good a piece of management as you'll see in football.

[superfurryhibby]

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I don't think you can properly compare managers pre and post Bosman - it's not at all the same job. Players generally stayed with clubs far longer then (apart from those either really crap or really good) and the difference in wages between the likes of Hibs and the OF and even the English top flight was far smaller.

I'm not criticising Eddie Turnbull because I know that club chairman, especially pre-Bosman, had a huge say in what players were to be sold and when, but the team Turnbull himself assembled (as opposed to mostly inherited) were relegated.

There's no way of knowing if the "tornados" would have won the league under Mowbray, Stubbs or Lennon for example.

It's a huge subject and unfortunately I don't have time to set out all my thoughts.

Agree with a lot of this, but would it not also be fair to say that Chairman Hart started to lose interest and boardroom decision making was what cost us. Turnbull, middle period saw the emergence of players like Des Bremner, Ally McLeod, Iain Munro, Bobby Smith, Jackie McNamara ( although Munro was swapped, presumably on Turnbull's say so), all signed or brought through the ranks by ET. By the time of relegation we were on our knees, Nearly everything of value had been flogged, including the likes of Brownlie, Blackley.

Turnbull's early side played with a style rarely seen at ER. Although they only won a League Cup, the fact that they are so full fondly remembered 45 years on says iit all.

Lennon has us performing well and I think has the ability to consolidate and improve this side. Whether he gets the backing or hangs around long enough remains to be seen.

[Peevemor]

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Agree with a lot of this, but would it not also be fair to say that Chairman Hart started to lose interest and boardroom decision making was what cost us. Turnbull, middle period saw the emergence of players like Des Bremner, Ally McLeod, Iain Munro, Bobby Smith, Jackie McNamara ( although Munro was swapped, presumably on Turnbull's say so), all signed or brought through the ranks by ET. By the time of relegation we were on our knees, Nearly everything of value had been flogged, including the likes of Brownlie, Blackley.

Turnbull's early side played with a style rarely seen at ER. Although they only won a League Cup, the fact that they are so full fondly remembered 45 years on says iit all.

Lennon has us performing well and I think has the ability to consolidate and improve this side. Whether he gets the backing or hangs around long enough remains to be seen.

I did mention the chairman's influence and tried to be careful not to criticise ET, simply because in 1975 (end of the tornados???) I was only 8 years old and hadn't even been to a match at Easter Road, therefore any opinion I have isn't at all valid.

My main point was that a managers job is very different since Bosman and the mega TV money in England and elsewhere.

[DavidDavidGray]

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You missed the rebuilding of the entire squad following Butcher and relegation. As good a piece of management as you'll see in football.

This. People seem to forget that Stubbs had a massive rebuilding job on his hands when he came in. He was never gonna get promoted in the first season back IMO and whilst we should’ve been promoted in the 2nd, he took us to both cup finals, which means a lot more games. He did this all whilst playing entertaining, attacking football. Stubbs is arguably one of the most important managers in our history.

[superfurryhibby]

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I did mention the chairman's influence and tried to be careful not to criticise ET, simply because in 1975 (end of the tornados???) I was only 8 years old and hadn't even been to a match at Easter Road, therefore any opinion I have isn't at all valid.

My main point was that a managers job is very different since Bosman and the mega TV money in England and elsewhere.

I agree with that point wholeheartedly and although I was not that much older than you at the time you mention, it's OK to form an opinion based on the history. TBF Turnbull made some strange decisions too, buying Harper when we needed a goalie and a centre half. swapping Munro for Fyfe and Scott and getting rid of Gordon and O'Rourke were all poor decisions.

[1van Sprou7e]

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Think this is all a bit premature.

Fenlon had us third, Yogi had us third, McLeish and Mogga finished third.

Im excited about him, and i like him, but lets not get carried away.

Fenlon had us 3rd?

[Stevie Reid]

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Fenlon had us 3rd?

He didn't say we finished 3rd under Fenlon.

Fenlon actually had us top of the league in November. We were 7th by the end of the season though.

[snooky]

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...who? i know stubbs brought us the holy grail, but i think lennon is a more gifted, all round manager. he's certainly the best we've had in my life time (i.e. since 1988). it's pretty crazy when you think about it, that we got the last manager to get a scottish club team into the last 16 of the champions league.

Neil Lennon best manager since ..... Sly Sbreed some are saying.