Bottom 6 - Has the club said anything yet?

[hibsbollah]

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Jeffries was 1 and a half years, Levein was nearly 4. For Aberdeen, they had Calderwood with 5 years and McInnes with 8. Craig Brown got 2 and a bit years and was generally crap the whole time. Giving him time done nothing to bring success. Dundee United gave Levein, Houston and McNamara all about 3 years each.

The thing that stands out for me is that all the managers listed above all came in the door and done fairly well from the off, hence why they got given time. They earned it.

Levein came in to Hearts and finished 5th, 5th, 3rd, 3rd. Calderwood came in and finished 4th, 6th, 3rd, 4th and 4th and McInnes came in and finished 3rd with a cup win, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 4th and then was eventually sacked when they ended up in the bottom 6. Even Jeffries in the 90s, came in, got 4th and a cup final, 4th and a cup final, 3rd and a cup win. Dundee United had Levein, Houston and McNamara over a 9 year period which saw them finish 9th (they had 8 points after 12 games when Levein came in) 5th, 5th, 3rd (and cup), 4th, 4th, 6th, 4th, 5th.

We don’t really have anyone to compare that to other than Mowbray, who we of course never sacked. From looking at our records, I’d suggest we’re in no way an outlier and we all treat managers much the same, with Hearts being the potential outlier.

If they’re doing well, we all keep them (with Hearts being a slight outlier for a period), if they’re not, we all sack them. If they’ve previously done well but then start failing, we all sack them.

The idea we’ve got some highly undesirable record in terms of sacking managers doesn’t really stand up to much scrutiny. We’re much the same as anyone else and if a manager doesn’t want our job because he might get sacked then he’ll have slim pickings in terms of job opportunities as we’re much the same as most teams. Given our lack of sustained success compared to the other 3 teams, there could be a genuine argument put forward that we give failing managers longer than others.

Thanks for clarifying, i wasnt aware that the clubs you mention have a similar churn. Perhaps thats (from my point of view) a collective failing of football clubs in general, of a congenital lack of patience rather than a Hibs specific thing. You must confess though, that the absence of one single manager to stay at our club for more than 2 and a half years iver such a long period, almost 25 years, is a bit unusual? And the regularity with which the season and a half window seems to appear. Nothing sustained will ever be created in that length of time.

[Baldy Foghorn]

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I mean, this is up there with the Robbie Reply quote. Shambolic.



2000/01 3rd
2001/02 10th
2002/03 7th
2003/04 8th
2004/05 3rd
2005/06 4th
2006/07 6th
2007/08 6th
2008/09 6th
2009/10 4th
2010/11 10th
2011/12 11th
2012/13 7th
2013/14 11th
2014/15 Championship
2015/16 Championship
2016/17 Championship
2017/18 4th
2018/19 5th
2019/20 7th
2020/21 3rd
2021/22 8th
2022/23 5th
2023/24 7th at best

24 seasons of the split, 13 x top 6 appearances.

Is it not 11 x top 6?

[bingo70]

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I don't even think its the number of managers....but the fact that the longest in post was for 2.5 years is pretty staggering.

I don’t find that staggering, that’s just modern football.

Not many managers will last 2.5 years in a job now for various reasons.

[Stubbsy90+2]

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Thanks for clarifying, i wasnt aware that the clubs you mention have a similar churn. Perhaps thats (from my point of view) a collective failing of football clubs in general, of a congenital lack of patience rather than a Hibs specific thing. You must confess though, that the absence of one single manager to stay at our club for more than 2 and a half years iver such a long period, almost 25 years, is a bit unusual? And the regularity with which the season and a half window seems to appear. Nothing sustained will ever be created in that length of time.

It probably is unusual that we haven’t given anybody longer than 2 and a half years but I’d suspect Mowbray was our guy for that. He got lured away though whilst all the other managers listed have never been headhunted for a bigger role/decided they didn’t want to move. Obviously we’ll never know, but I’d suspect Mowbray would have been our long term appointment had he not been taken off us.

I still think it’s fairly telling that these clubs all have longer term appointments and the common denominator is that it was all with managers who delivered a degree of success from the off and sustained it. That’s what will be required if you want to be a long term success at Hibs and the evidence is there with clubs our size that the managers who come in and do well over sustained periods will always start off well. Out of 60 managers between the 4 clubs this century, none of us can point to a single manager that started slowly (I’m talking majority of a season slowly, not 3 or 4 games slowly) and grew into the role. It doesn’t really happen.

Obviously it can be argued whether it’s a collective football issue or not, but it’s definitely not a Hibs specific issue. We’re no worse than most others and there’s no way it’ll put managers off the job for that reason.

[Hibernia&Alba]

There isn’t much to be said at this stage, when the season is still ongoing. We might well hear something at the end of the season regarding an assessment and an intention to improve etc. We will have to wait and see.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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We were in Europe. Our performance in those games should have been a good gauge as to where we are. We want to be in Europe. Preferably for a decent run. So we look at where we were weak and improve from there. Kensell and McDermott and Ian Gordon on the case.

How do we go from that to "being in Europe is the last thing we need"?

That says it all for me. We're going backwards at a rate of knotts.

Its simple really. If a root and branch re examination of the football side is to happen and a whole load of new players are added to that in the summer, then a place in the very first round of the 3rd biggest European competition starting in June or something probably isn't of much use.

Far better to have a group in the LC to get things up and running before the league starts. Because the fact is we have gone backwards and if fixing it means a new manager and about 6 new first team players , then walking before you learn to run would probably be advisable.

[I'm Spartacus]

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Is it not 11 x top 6?

Aye! Good spot, difficult to count with rage in the eyes :)

[Lancs Harp]

The powers that be havent realised yet what this means. In England for instance finishing 7th probably means a Conference or even Europa cup spot. Its been a good season back slaps and cherry coke all round.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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Thanks for clarifying, i wasnt aware that the clubs you mention have a similar churn. Perhaps thats (from my point of view) a collective failing of football clubs in general, of a congenital lack of patience rather than a Hibs specific thing. You must confess though, that the absence of one single manager to stay at our club for more than 2 and a half years iver such a long period, almost 25 years, is a bit unusual? And the regularity with which the season and a half window seems to appear. Nothing sustained will ever be created in that length of time.

Is it not the (unintended self-defeating) consequence of - what’s the phrase we hear regularly - “not accepting mediocrity?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Boom/bust over incremental improvement - arguably Ross looking at subsequent backing and funding - would have grounds to feel aggrieved. He was steady as she goes building foundations -called out the recruitment needs. Then the wheels came off…

[I'm Spartacus]

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The powers that be havent realised yet what this means. In England for instance finishing 7th probably means a Conference or even Europa cup spot. Its been a good season back slaps and cherry coke all round.

Loved the old pre-sugar limit Cherry Coke, unbeatable IMO.

[I'm Spartacus]

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Boom/bust over incremental improvement - arguably Ross looking at subsequent backing and funding - would have grounds to feel aggrieved. He was steady as she goes building foundations -called out the recruitment needs. Then the wheels came off…

It was absolutly eye bleeding, I've no idea if I prefer getting beat 4-3 or winning 1-0 but a Jack Ross 1-0 winning performance.

You take the wins all day long, but it was weird, a 1-0 win felt like a defeat, it was like a psycological experiment on misery

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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It was absolutly eye bleeding, I've no idea if I prefer getting beat 4-3 or winning 1-0 but a Jack Ross 1-0 winning performance.

You take the wins all day long, but it was weird, a 1-0 win felt like a defeat, it was like a psycological experiment on misery

which is why I think the apparent clamour for Macinnes is destined to be a short term honeymoon should it come to pass. We’re just not geared up for thst.

we’re turning into Aberdeen.

[thebausburst]

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which is why I think the apparent clamour for Macinnes is destined to be a short term honeymoon should it come to pass. We’re just not geared up for thst.

we’re turning into Aberdeen.

The association of Hibs with attacking free flowing football has been a myth for a generation now, I mean did you watch the Alex Miller years! I want McInnes because I want to go into big games (uglies, derby, cup ties) genuinely feeling we’ve got a good chance to win not fingers and toes crossed for a draw. Look at McInnes’s record at Aberdeen, it’s the blueprint of what the club/owners say they want for Hibs i.e. regular top 3, cup wins, Euro progress. It is crazy to me to think any Hibs fan wouldn’t want him as manager, he’s such an obvious choice.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

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The association of Hibs with attacking free flowing football has been a myth for a generation now, I mean did you watch the Alex Miller years! I want McInnes because I want to go into big games (uglies, derby, cup ties) genuinely feeling we’ve got a good chance to win not fingers and toes crossed for a draw. Look at McInnes’s record at Aberdeen, it’s the blueprint of what the club/owners say they want for Hibs i.e. regular top 3, cup wins, Euro progress. It is crazy to me to think any Hibs fan wouldn’t want him as manager, he’s such an obvious choice.

I want him too. He wouldn’t take the job though, he’d probably hang up the second he realised the phone call was from BK.


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[bingo70]

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The association of Hibs with attacking free flowing football has been a myth for a generation now, I mean did you watch the Alex Miller years! I want McInnes because I want to go into big games (uglies, derby, cup ties) genuinely feeling we’ve got a good chance to win not fingers and toes crossed for a draw. Look at McInnes’s record at Aberdeen, it’s the blueprint of what the club/owners say they want for Hibs i.e. regular top 3, cup wins, Euro progress. It is crazy to me to think any Hibs fan wouldn’t want him as manager, he’s such an obvious choice.

When people say they want to go and enjoy watching Hibs, I never see them mention free flowing football. It’s only people such as yourself making it up to back up your position on the argument.

I want to watch an entertaining Hibs side but that comes in various forms. I want us to play with energy, aggression and intensity, I want us to play on the front foot trying to dominate games, I want to see exciting players, I want to see us score loads of goals, if we go one up I want us to go for a 2nd and then a 3rd, then a 4th, not just try to see the game out, I want to see young players coming through that we can relate to and then sell on for a big profit.

All of the above can be achieved by playing route one football to a big target man and winning second balls. If we do that effectively it’ll be good to watch and entertaining, that’s fine with me!

I literally never see anybody asking to play ‘the Hibs way’ or with ‘free flowing football’, nothing wrong with wanting to enjoy the experience of going to watch Hibs though and caring a bit more than the end result.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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The association of Hibs with attacking free flowing football has been a myth for a generation now, I mean did you watch the Alex Miller years! I want McInnes because I want to go into big games (uglies, derby, cup ties) genuinely feeling we’ve got a good chance to win not fingers and toes crossed for a draw. Look at McInnes’s record at Aberdeen, it’s the blueprint of what the club/owners say they want for Hibs i.e. regular top 3, cup wins, Euro progress. It is crazy to me to think any Hibs fan wouldn’t want him as manager, he’s such an obvious choice.

for all the head to beat gritty football sprinkled with some goals and higher finishes when it came to the uglies - someone will correct me if my memory lets me down - Dels teams had a habit of their bottle crashing - net even giving the uglies a game - and until about 2017 we managed to pip them to finals.

I do think it’s a reflection on Scottish football that we seemed deemed to times and repeats with the managers seemingly having to know the Scottihs game. I’m not too sure how open to innovation we are. Proof is in the pudding tho - few foreign managers outside of the OF have made an impact.

[jeffers]

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The association of Hibs with attacking free flowing football has been a myth for a generation now, I mean did you watch the Alex Miller years! I want McInnes because I want to go into big games (uglies, derby, cup ties) genuinely feeling we’ve got a good chance to win not fingers and toes crossed for a draw. Look at McInnes’s record at Aberdeen, it’s the blueprint of what the club/owners say they want for Hibs i.e. regular top 3, cup wins, Euro progress. It is crazy to me to think any Hibs fan wouldn’t want him as manager, he’s such an obvious choice.

That’s not true though is it ? It was free flowing at times under both Stubbs and Lennon. In Lennon’s case under him I enjoyed going to games more than I can remember doing so in a long time. No I don’t want him back though.

I want to believe winning football and attractive football can be achieved together, that it’s not one or other. I’d like to see us go for Mcinnes too. I think people are put off by the latter part of his time with Aberdeen, where it was industrial and cynical but it wasn’t always like that. I don’t think Killie are horrible to watch under him either.

[hibsbollah]

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Is it not the (unintended self-defeating) consequence of - what’s the phrase we hear regularly - “not accepting mediocrity?

Yes! I demand MORE mediocrity to achieve eventual ecstasy.

[ChilliEater]

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I mean, this is up there with the Robbie Reply quote. Shambolic.



2000/01 3rd
2001/02 10th
2002/03 7th
2003/04 8th
2004/05 3rd
2005/06 4th
2006/07 6th
2007/08 6th
2008/09 6th
2009/10 4th
2010/11 10th
2011/12 11th
2012/13 7th
2013/14 11th
2014/15 Championship
2015/16 Championship
2016/17 Championship
2017/18 4th
2018/19 5th
2019/20 7th
2020/21 3rd
2021/22 8th
2022/23 5th
2023/24 7th at best

24 seasons of the split, 13 x top 6 appearances.

So our colossal failure of a shambles of a humiliating season under a clueless clown from a pub league looks like resulting in a finishing position slightly above our 24 year average? FFS why haven't they all been sacked?

[easty]

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That’s not true though is it ? It was free flowing at times under both Stubbs and Lennon. In Lennon’s case under him I enjoyed going to games more than I can remember doing so in a long time. No I don’t want him back though.

I want to believe winning football and attractive football can be achieved together, that it’s not one or other. I’d like to see us go for Mcinnes too. I think people are put off by the latter part of his time with Aberdeen, where it was industrial and cynical but it wasn’t always like that. I don’t think Killie are horrible to watch under him either.

It’s free flowing rarely, and when it is it’s more to do with the quality of player than the quality of manager. In my opinion.

NM in charge of Stubbs and Lennons teams when we were good, and I’d say we’d still be good to watch.

[jeffers]

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It’s free flowing rarely, and when it is it’s more to do with the quality of player than the quality of manager. In my opinion.

NM in charge of Stubbs and Lennons teams when we were good, and I’d say we’d still be good to watch.

I’m not sure I share your confidence. I’m never going to change my opinion on Johnson but he had the same players putting in free flowing performances more than I’ve ever seen from Monty’s side. And the latter has even better options. It’s maybe happened more than I can remember but bar the 30 or so minutes against a really poor Livi I’m struggling to come up with many free flowing performances under him. It’s not exactly the same point but just look at the thread discussing games people have enjoyed under Monty.