Hsl

[MelbourneHibees]

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Shady/underhand etc isn’t helpful language.

The information has been shared, there’s an AGM to ask questions about it before anything is voted on.

The inference that wool is being pulled over people’s eyes etc is very reminiscent of the language used at the time of HSL’s launch, which put it on the back foot from the start and ultimately ended up with us in a position where it would be really desirable to have HSL representing the fans on the board and having a blocking vote but don’t due to it not being the numbers it needed.

This part, which is obviously not meant to be public knowledge, is worded as though they are at least thinking about the sale of the club down the line. Why change it if not and why describe it as a "benefit"?

"AG Note: our logic is to strike the right balance between being close, but not at, the 90% threshold in the Companies Act but with the benefit of a contractual drag mechanism and a slightly lower acceptance threshold than the Companies Act.

[Chipper1875]

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Shady/underhand etc isn’t helpful language.

The information has been shared, there’s an AGM to ask questions about it before anything is voted on.

The inference that wool is being pulled over people’s eyes etc is very reminiscent of the language used at the time of HSL’s launch, which put it on the back foot from the start and ultimately ended up with us in a position where it would be really desirable to have HSL representing the fans on the board and having a blocking vote but don’t due to it not being the numbers it needed.

Info is buried in a document that most rank
And file shareholders won’t understand and should not have to. If hibs wanted to be transparent they would have shared the articles and explained why they feel these changes are beneficial to
Hibs progressing . And why they need to have the option to wipe out loyal
Individual de minimus shareholders.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Shady/underhand etc isn’t helpful language.

The information has been shared, there’s an AGM to ask questions about it before anything is voted on.

The inference that wool is being pulled over people’s eyes etc is very reminiscent of the language used at the time of HSL’s launch, which put it on the back foot from the start and ultimately ended up with us in a position where it would be really desirable to have HSL representing the fans on the board and having a blocking vote but don’t due to it not being the numbers it needed.

Part of my issue is that, although it has been "shared", it hasn't really ....... (read on)

We have been presented with a proposed new Articles of Association. No context, and no reference to what is new.

Some of us have managed to find a few new bits, and we're doing our best to understand them.

I asked the Club directly to tell me what the new bits are. They haven't yet told me.

The Club could help themselves, and possibly their case, by being more explicit about what these changes are, and what they actually mean. Otherwise the unhelpful language will continue.

Edit. The Club read these forums. Maybe they should take this idea up.

[Pretty Boy]

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Shady/underhand etc isn’t helpful language.

The information has been shared, there’s an AGM to ask questions about it before anything is voted on.

The inference that wool is being pulled over people’s eyes etc is very reminiscent of the language used at the time of HSL’s launch, which put it on the back foot from the start and ultimately ended up with us in a position where it would be really desirable to have HSL representing the fans on the board and having a blocking vote but don’t due to it not being the numbers it needed.

I agree and have been careful to stress that I don't think anything nefarious is at play but rather that I believe that there is clarity required and people need to fully understand the consequences of their vote in a context that is longer term that skelping Hearts for a few seasons (as welcome as that would be).

Equally I don't think dismissing those raising concerns as 'jambos' or similar is helpful either.

[Rocky]

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Shady/underhand etc isn’t helpful language.

The information has been shared, there’s an AGM to ask questions about it before anything is voted on.

The inference that wool is being pulled over people’s eyes etc is very reminiscent of the language used at the time of HSL’s launch, which put it on the back foot from the start and ultimately ended up with us in a position where it would be really desirable to have HSL representing the fans on the board and having a blocking vote but don’t due to it not being the numbers it needed.

The voting form positions the changes to the Articles of Association as follows:

"The changes introduced in the new Articles are primarily to reflect developments in market practice and legal and regulatory requirements"

Yet buried away in them is an article enabling the owners to force us to sell our shares, and the unintended publication of the lawyers' comments clearly show that the threshold has been set to suit Bydand and BKFE. Folk can make their own minds up as to whether that's shady and underhand. One thing is for certain, it absolutely lacks transparency.

[matty_f]

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Do want they want . Do a podcast on it? Do it live from Inverness or on one of the supporter buses travelling up. Share some of the concerning points raised on this thread . Some will be concerned others won’t care. That’s life.

Also, could all the podcasts get together and put one on and get knowledgeable hibs fans on to walk the fans through what’s being proposed. There’s plenty knowledge fans out there.

You could do that?

[Chipper1875]

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You could do that?

I don’t even know what a podcast is . Far less set one up. I’m old skool who with others took the battle to mercer’s house , they exact day that hertz bar
Steward announced he wanted to kills us.

[matty_f]

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I agree and have been careful to stress that I don't think anything nefarious is at play but rather that I believe that there is clarity required and people need to fully understand the consequences of their vote in a context that is longer term that skelping Hearts for a few seasons (as welcome as that would be).

Equally I don't think dismissing those raising concerns as 'jambos' or similar is helpful either.

Yeah definitely not helpful branding concerned people as Jambos.

Are the shareholders still represented by a group? I have in my head that there used to be a shareholder’s association.

I think it’s absolutely right to ask questions and dig into the detail, I’ll be at the AGM and while i know where my voting intention sits just now, it’s not set in stone and I’ll be listening intently to the proposal and the questions asked (and I’ll ask questions if I’m unsure on anything).


My understanding is that the board are required legally to act in the best interests of the business and shareholders, that there are Hibs fans on the board and they are recommending the proposal gives me comfort that the resolutions are in the best interests of the club and me as a shareholder.

Reading this thread, though, you’d think that this is all smoke and mirrors to dupe the fans - not from every poster and is good to get some informed opinion on it.

[Chipper1875]

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Shady/underhand etc isn’t helpful language.

The information has been shared, there’s an AGM to ask questions about it before anything is voted on.

The inference that wool is being pulled over people’s eyes etc is very reminiscent of the language used at the time of HSL’s launch, which put it on the back foot from the start and ultimately ended up with us in a position where it would be really desirable to have HSL representing the fans on the board and having a blocking vote but don’t due to it not being the numbers it needed.

Also, they don’t tell shareholders where the accounts and articles are located ld on clubs website . Very difficult to find . Should have posted an article with the links . Instead of having to mine the site to find them

[matty_f]

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Also, they don’t tell shareholders where the accounts and articles are located ld on clubs website . Very difficult to find . Should have posted an article with the links . Instead of having to mine the site to find them

That’s fair.

[Pretty Boy]

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Yeah definitely not helpful branding concerned people as Jambos.

Are the shareholders still represented by a group? I have in my head that there used to be a shareholder’s association.

I think it’s absolutely right to ask questions and dig into the detail, I’ll be at the AGM and while i know where my voting intention sits just now, it’s not set in stone and I’ll be listening intently to the proposal and the questions asked (and I’ll ask questions if I’m unsure on anything).


My understanding is that the board are required legally to act in the best interests of the business and shareholders, that there are Hibs fans on the board and they are recommending the proposal gives me comfort that the resolutions are in the best interests of the club and me as a shareholder.

Reading this thread, though, you’d think that this is all smoke and mirrors to dupe the fans - not from every poster and is good to get some informed opinion on it.

There was a view to bring back the Shareholders Association at the time of the launch of HSL and the share issue that went with it. Thinks that was about 2015ish.

A couple of posters on here (although one is probably more active on the Bounce) were involved but it never really got off the ground. I was at one meeting with them at ER as I was doing a few things with HSL at the time. I think it was something that there just wasn't a huge appetite for as it wasn't deemed as necessary as it was immediately post Mercer. It's arguably something that would be useful right about now though.

[Chipper1875]

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Yeah definitely not helpful branding concerned people as Jambos.

Are the shareholders still represented by a group? I have in my head that there used to be a shareholder’s association.

I think it’s absolutely right to ask questions and dig into the detail, I’ll be at the AGM and while i know where my voting intention sits just now, it’s not set in stone and I’ll be listening intently to the proposal and the questions asked (and I’ll ask questions if I’m unsure on anything).


My understanding is that the board are required legally to act in the best interests of the business and shareholders, that there are Hibs fans on the board and they are recommending the proposal gives me comfort that the resolutions are in the best interests of the club and me as a shareholder.

Reading this thread, though, you’d think that this is all smoke and mirrors to dupe the fans - not from every poster and is good to get some informed opinion on it.

Sadly the group withered away. Modern communication methods it would be easier to run now . Chap that ran it did a good job.

[BSEJVT]

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What would that look like in practice?

If things were to reach the same point as you say (reduced to 7% holding and probably effectively killed off), I'm struggling to think of ways the club could have engaged with HSL that would amount to anything more than just stringing them along.

It would look like a **** sandwich but there are niceties involved.

We will all in our work have had to deliver **** sandwiches to customers and subordinates, but it is about the niceties involved, trying to understand folks positions and kid them on they are valued to keep them onside.

As the recipient of several **** sandwiches in 40 odd years in financial services you get a bit of context as to why what has happened has and don't have to actually feel as though you are touching the ****, but the bread it is wrapped in.

[Rumble de Thump]

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I agree and have been careful to stress that I don't think anything nefarious is at play but rather that I believe that there is clarity required and people need to fully understand the consequences of their vote in a context that is longer term that skelping Hearts for a few seasons (as welcome as that would be).

Equally I don't think dismissing those raising concerns as 'jambos' or similar is helpful either.

Exactly. With the ponzi scheme lies of yesteryear it was an extremely tiny miniority of Hibs fans pushing that damaging narrative, and Hearts fans were all too happy to run with it. So it stands to reason that not everyone on a Hibs fans forum who is always disingenuously trying to paint the club, its owners and staff in a negative light will be a Hearts fan pretending to be a Hibs fan, despite it being exactly the same chat Hearts fans come out with on Kickback.

[Just Alf]

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They make a totally valid point though

Not really "can't recall any other AGM votes"
Is wrong... I've had an email from HSL every year re an AGM...... only gone to a couple tho.

[Pagan Hibernia]

So some people who couldn't be arsed voting when HSL were seeking guidance on how to use funds (every member would have received notifications about this) are now whining that HSL continue to do the bidding of those members who did vote.

Unbelievable.

[LeithMike]

I appreciate the views on the other but I have to say that the new investment doesn’t sit well with me for the following reasons:

1. Disapplication of existing shareholders’ pre-emption rights - pre-emption rights (to protect the proportion of your shareholding) is a significant protection for minority shareholders. Was there really a need to do this? If it’s about investment, why not allow existing shareholders to contribute to it? This is not just about investment and I don’t think it’s possible to conclude otherwise - otherwise why not be inclusive?

2. Drag-along rights - this is not your average commercial limited company but a 150 year old community institution. Forcing small shareholders to part with their shareholding (however small) on a sale so one party can control the entire club is a pretty callous way to treat individuals who have helped financially support the club over the years (albeit in a small way but likely at personal cost).

3. HSL is representative of the supporters. To treat the lifeblood of the club with such disdain is pretty shocking. They have purposely sought to exclude supporters from owning in the club and getting to 25% to stop things like disapplication of pre-emption rights and amending the Articles to suit the majority owner ensuring the club is here for future generations.

4. General trend of commercialisation - I don’t enjoy going to Easter Road as much. My sister commented recently after being for the first time in about 15 years - nobody sings any more. No wonder with all the adverts and activities on the screen. And who remembers when a lucky kid got drawn to be mascot and feel like a million dollars (ironic Americanism)but now you need your parents to shell out £100 and you’re just the one of ten.

5. Decision-making - the club is very poorly run - existing staff appeared to be dispensed with early and money wasted on a lot of vanity projects. Why pay so much to agencies to run catering and the shop when you could be a key community employer. The money we have wasted in a football sense is also shocking.

It’s sad that as a club we spent so long doing things the right way while Hearts didn’t yet they end up the community club and we are now at the whim of the investment market.

Credit to HSL and their board for a valiant effort to safeguard the future of the club but I think the desperation for instant football success means the message just isn’t as appealing. We live in hope that it all works out.


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[CallumLaidlaw]

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I appreciate the views on the other but I have to say that the new investment doesn’t sit well with me for the following reasons:

1. Disapplication of existing shareholders’ pre-emption rights - pre-emption rights (to protect the proportion of your shareholding) is a significant protection for minority shareholders. Was there really a need to do this? If it’s about investment, why not allow existing shareholders to contribute to it? This is not just about investment and I don’t think it’s possible to conclude otherwise - otherwise why not be inclusive?

2. Drag-along rights - this is not your average commercial limited company but a 150 year old community institution. Forcing small shareholders to part with their shareholding (however small) on a sale so one party can control the entire club is a pretty callous way to treat individuals who have helped financially support the club over the years (albeit in a small way but likely at personal cost).

3. HSL is representative of the supporters. To treat the lifeblood of the club with such disdain is pretty shocking. They have purposely sought to exclude supporters from owning in the club and getting to 25% to stop things like disapplication of pre-emption rights and amending the Articles to suit the majority owner ensuring the club is here for future generations.

4. General trend of commercialisation - I don’t enjoy going to Easter Road as much. My sister commented recently after being for the first time in about 15 years - nobody sings any more. No wonder with all the adverts and activities on the screen. And who remembers when a lucky kid got drawn to be mascot and feel like a million dollars (ironic Americanism)but now you need your parents to shell out £100 and you’re just the one of ten.

5. Decision-making - the club is very poorly run - existing staff appeared to be dispensed with early and money wasted on a lot of vanity projects. Why pay so much to agencies to run catering and the shop when you could be a key community employer. The money we have wasted in a football sense is also shocking.

It’s sad that as a club we spent so long doing things the right way while Hearts didn’t yet they end up the community club and we are now at the whim of the investment market.

Credit to HSL and their board for a valiant effort to safeguard the future of the club but I think the desperation for instant football success means the message just isn’t as appealing. We live in hope that it all works out.


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Just on 4, there’s still Hibs kids drawn out each week to be mascots.


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[LeithMike]

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Just on 4, there’s still Hibs kids drawn out each week to be mascots.


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Yeah but you know what I mean and I think the point stands. I know other clubs do it as well.


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[Ship of Hope]

Think HSL need to read the room. The vast majority of fans want this investment to happen and are excited by it. IMO of course.. I would way rather have the Gordons /BK running the club than the guy interviewed on behalf of HSL on tv. That was shocking. I have stopped my payments to HSL as I feel they are contributing nothing towards the club at this time. If an alternative to HSL was set up similar to FOH with the goal to raise funds with no intent on fan ownership I would contribute.

[MelbourneHibees]

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If an alternative to HSL was set up similar to FOH with the goal to raise funds with no intent on fan ownership I would contribute.

That's effectively what HSL has now become by default.
They just need to decide what they want to do with the money now.

[offshorehibby]

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That's effectively what HSL has now become by default.
They just need to decide what they want to do with the money now.

It's already in the records what the HSL money is intended for and has been highlighted several times.

[Just Alf]

Folk still think HSL was about fans/HSL running the club?

After all these years the old scare mongering by Pia etc seems still to have an impact.
:-(

[Stairway 2 7]

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That's effectively what HSL has now become by default.
They just need to decide what they want to do with the money now.

They are now just building up money incase shares go on sale in the future, you'd think it'll be many years from now

[7Hero]

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Jim Adie (I think) from HSL on Sky tonight and his comments for me were embarrassing.

Says it’s heartbreaking that HSL shares will be diluted. Questions how we have reached a position where we need fresh external investment. Thinks the accounts are very worrying.

Making a fool of himself IMO. Ignores that we’ve made a loss because we’ve invested in Hospitality, Floodlights, Screens etc.

Not helpful and only stirs division.

All capital costs, therefore not the real reason for such a huge loss of money, simply bad management by the club. The accounts are worrying..

[El Gubbz]

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They are now just building up money incase shares go on sale in the future, you'd think it'll be many years from now

And at what price.. if the plan is for Gordon and Foley to “add value” to the club then we as a fan base decide fan ownership is the model for us in the future it just means we’ll be more out of pocket than if we had the opportunity/drive to do it today.

I think HSL need to totally repackage themselves once this has been voted through by Robb (the only vote that matters other than HSL’s at the AGM). The dilution of fans shares and the changes to the articles of association kills fan ownership until such times the club would rely on fans to bail them out should Project Scotland not be a success.

Best route for HSL for me would be to elbow their way into an official club backed working group where they have the opportunity to scrutinise and influence the club strategy (like a shadow government) but to be a success and get buy in from the club and fans they really need a decent calibre of professional volunteers.

Needs to keep (reignite) a presence regardless of their share %age so as to ensure the club is aware of fan views and is ready to go should Project Scotland be a failure

[Blaster]

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Think HSL need to read the room. The vast majority of fans want this investment to happen and are excited by it. IMO of course.. I would way rather have the Gordons /BK running the club than the guy interviewed on behalf of HSL on tv. That was shocking. I have stopped my payments to HSL as I feel they are contributing nothing towards the club at this time. If an alternative to HSL was set up similar to FOH with the goal to raise funds with no intent on fan ownership I would contribute.

That’s where I am too. Stopped my payment when the money stopped going to the club. The shares they got previously was just a bonus in my eyes. I just liked using it as a vehicle for me to make a modest monthly payment to help the club

[Bostonhibby]

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I appreciate the views on the other but I have to say that the new investment doesn’t sit well with me for the following reasons:

1. Disapplication of existing shareholders’ pre-emption rights - pre-emption rights (to protect the proportion of your shareholding) is a significant protection for minority shareholders. Was there really a need to do this? If it’s about investment, why not allow existing shareholders to contribute to it? This is not just about investment and I don’t think it’s possible to conclude otherwise - otherwise why not be inclusive?

2. Drag-along rights - this is not your average commercial limited company but a 150 year old community institution. Forcing small shareholders to part with their shareholding (however small) on a sale so one party can control the entire club is a pretty callous way to treat individuals who have helped financially support the club over the years (albeit in a small way but likely at personal cost).

3. HSL is representative of the supporters. To treat the lifeblood of the club with such disdain is pretty shocking. They have purposely sought to exclude supporters from owning in the club and getting to 25% to stop things like disapplication of pre-emption rights and amending the Articles to suit the majority owner ensuring the club is here for future generations.

4. General trend of commercialisation - I don’t enjoy going to Easter Road as much. My sister commented recently after being for the first time in about 15 years - nobody sings any more. No wonder with all the adverts and activities on the screen. And who remembers when a lucky kid got drawn to be mascot and feel like a million dollars (ironic Americanism)but now you need your parents to shell out £100 and you’re just the one of ten.

5. Decision-making - the club is very poorly run - existing staff appeared to be dispensed with early and money wasted on a lot of vanity projects. Why pay so much to agencies to run catering and the shop when you could be a key community employer. The money we have wasted in a football sense is also shocking.

It’s sad that as a club we spent so long doing things the right way while Hearts didn’t yet they end up the community club and we are now at the whim of the investment market.

Credit to HSL and their board for a valiant effort to safeguard the future of the club but I think the desperation for instant football success means the message just isn’t as appealing. We live in hope that it all works out.


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Good post

Not much to disagree with there. Points 1 & 2 are the ones that really stick in my throat. Was never about the money for us, we have shareholdings that go way back and bought at every opportunity since.

An entirely emotional buy in to something we care about more than money. Now an entity claiming to have common goals with us is willing to expose us to giving that up without any regard for why we own them.

I guess, looking at how the vote (on special resolutions in particular) will go it comes down to what a few money men think is best, a key player in this is purported to have excellent Hibs credentials.

Hopefully the new manifestation of the club will want to take on board what they're intending to do to fans for whom it's about more than money and acquisition

I've never felt so disconnected from what Hibs were to me. That said, I doubt we will ever see perfection and it looks like the future at ER doesn't have room for the small buy in unless its buying food, drink, merchandising and the like.

Choosing between standing still, or going backwards on the pitch as we have been for a while now, and what seems to be the only show in town I am just about in favour of taking the leap to see what the new world brings to us.

But however its spun there's a real feeling that supporters have become less respected. I hesitate to say less important as we are there to be marketed to so a number of charm offensives will follow the resolutions being nodded through.

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[flash]

After much difficulty I have managed to fill my proxy vote form in and send it back to HSL.

Not sure I am completely comfortable with everything that's going on but having suffered for the vast majority of my near 50 years watching Hibs there's no way I am turning down this opportunity.

Grateful to those with some knowledge for the info they have provided about all this, both positive and negative, which helped me make a slightly informed decision.

Presuming it all goes through look forward to seeing what it all might mean for us.

[DanishJohn]

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Think HSL need to read the room. The vast majority of fans want this investment to happen and are excited by it. IMO of course.. I would way rather have the Gordons /BK running the club than the guy interviewed on behalf of HSL on tv. That was shocking. I have stopped my payments to HSL as I feel they are contributing nothing towards the club at this time. If an alternative to HSL was set up similar to FOH with the goal to raise funds with no intent on fan ownership I would contribute.

This is some post. Sometimes you just have to let something go but this post is akin to the "Ponzi" scheme posts from years ago. They damaged HSL severely.

I don't know if you are holding a grudge from the past or just have a lack of understanding of the facts.

I will give you now the opportunity to respond.

"The vast majority of fans want this to happen " _ How do you know this ? what information are you basing this on ?
" The guy interviewed on behalf of HSL. That was shocking" - Tell me, what did the guy (Chairman of HSL) say that was shocking ?
" I would rather have Gordons/BK running the club than the guy interviewed on behalf of HSL" Really ? You are aware of Hibs accounts for the last two years ? Massive losses.
And are you happy with the performance of the team on the park ? Yep again under the stewardship of the Gordons and Kensell
"I feel they are contributing nothing to the club at this moment in time" - Are you aware if they have ever contributed in the past ?

Your last sentence is the daddy of them all. - What you are saying is a good idea is for ordinary hard working Hibs fans, to hand money over to a club that is owned by millionaires or soon to be billionaires ? And whilst we do that The Gordon family obliterate good decent Hibs fan's share ownership of the club ?



Finally just a little footnote.

The chairman of HSL and his fellow directors and 4000 members have raised over a £ million pounds for Hibernian FC.
What would you have done ? And don't say have a race night !