Would Scottish football become better or worse without the old firm ?

[HoboHarry]

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If the uglies could be made to do a Third Lanark and disappear all together that would be a great thing for Scottish football.

But whilst they still exist we are better off with them in our league than embarrassing us in any English or European league that would have them.

If you mean in terms of their fans behaviour, I'm not sure that would be as much of an issue as it is here with no liability and the cowardice of the governing body here.

[007]

Better - as long as they left properly and weren't allowed a 'B' team to play in Scottish football.

[Stubbsy90+2]

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The argument about being worse off financially is irrelevant as everyone would be in the same boat..I'd take a standard drop in player if it meant the league was actually competitive. It would be better in every way, and I'm sure crowds would go up by quite a bit also.

I’m not sure the fact that we’d be playing in a league with next to no money being put into it can just be written off as an irrelevance.

Yes, it would be competitive, but so is the Lowland League. If the quality is irrelevant then I presume you’d say the Lowland League is a better league than the Scottish Premiership?

The quality of the league matters. Folk are kidding themselves on if they think folk would be flocking in their droves to watch guys who would be playing in the Scottish Championship or even lower in some our opponents cases imo. They’d be away watching the two Glasgow clubs in even bigger numbers than they are now.

[Hibbyradge]

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Correct. Remember covid? How many clubs went to the wall? None, same when Sevco were booted out the league.
Far too much short-termism thought in Scottish football. Generally the same on this thread with way too many posts focusing on the immediate future if those ***** were away.

I'm looking at the short, medium and long term future.

There are more OF supporters than all the other fans put together. They're not going to suddenly change allegiance and start supporting teams in the original league if they leave.

There's a reason that they're on TV every week and they're the reason we're given even the paltry sum they do kindly offer.

Would removing Barca and Real from La Liga improve it and make it more attractive to TV companies and sponsors? Would the Eredivisie suddenly pique people's interest if Ajax and PSV joined the Belgium league?

Scottish football for most of the world is Rantic. I can't tell you the number of times I've been asked if I was blue or green. Most people don't even know the other teams in the Scottish Premiership. Rantic aren't going to disappear so that's not going to change just because Hibs might have a chance of winning the league.

Ask most Scottish fans who won the Welsh or Irish leagues and they won't have a clue. Why is that? Because they're not on TV and if they're not on TV the sponsors won't be interested in the slightest. You can have as much electronic track side advertising as you want, but it won't even get switched on if it's not going to be on TV.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of me would love to get rid of them, but we have to face the reality of what it would mean if/ when they went.

[Stubbsy90+2]

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I'm looking at the short, medium and long term future.

There are more OF supporters than all the other fans put together. They're not going to suddenly change allegiance and start supporting teams in the original league if they leave.

There's a reason that they're on TV every week and they're the reason we're given even the paltry sum they do kindly offer.

Would removing Barca and Real from La Liga improve it and make it more attractive to TV companies and sponsors? Would the Eredivisie suddenly pique people's interest if Ajax and PSV joined the Belgium league?

Scottish football for most of the world is Rantic. I can't tell you the number of times I've been asked if I was blue or green. Most people don't even know the other teams in the Scottish Premiership. Rantic aren't going to disappear so that's not going to change just because Hibs might have a chance of winning the league.

Ask most Scottish fans who won the Welsh or Irish leagues and they won't have a clue. Why is that? Because they're not on TV and if they're not on TV the sponsors won't be interested in the slightest. You can have as much electronic track side advertising as you want, but it won't even get switched on if it's not going to be on TV.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of me would love to get rid of them, but we have to face the reality of what it would mean if/ when they went.

All the chat that Scottish football would be better for it is pure bravado imo. Our league, or any league for that matter, would fall to bits by losing about 55% of the supporters that follow it at grounds and probably even more than that in terms of people that follow it overall.

We’d all love to get rid of the OF and also have a good league at a good standard etc. It couldn’t happen though. We’d be left with a league of a terrible standard, with a pitiful amount of money coming into it and the crowds would end up reflecting that.

[blackpoolhibs]

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I'm looking at the short, medium and long term future.

There are more OF supporters than all the other fans put together. They're not going to suddenly change allegiance and start supporting teams in the original league if they leave.

There's a reason that they're on TV every week and they're the reason we're given even the paltry sum they do kindly offer.

Would removing Barca and Real from La Liga improve it and make it more attractive to TV companies and sponsors? Would the Eredivisie suddenly pique people's interest if Ajax and PSV joined the Belgium league?

Scottish football for most of the world is Rantic. I can't tell you the number of times I've been asked if I was blue or green. Most people don't even know the other teams in the Scottish Premiership. Rantic aren't going to disappear so that's not going to change just because Hibs might have a chance of winning the league.

Ask most Scottish fans who won the Welsh or Irish leagues and they won't have a clue. Why is that? Because they're not on TV and if they're not on TV the sponsors won't be interested in the slightest. You can have as much electronic track side advertising as you want, but it won't even get switched on if it's not going to be on TV.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of me would love to get rid of them, but we have to face the reality of what it would mean if/ when they went.

While we continue to get shafted/cheated each week, each season i'm of the opinion i'd rather watch a fair game than a crooked one, and if that means they are somewhere else and the standard drops, then fair enough.

[Hibbyradge]

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While we continue to get shafted/cheated each week, each season i'm of the opinion i'd rather watch a fair game than a crooked one, and if that means they are somewhere else and the standard drops, then fair enough.

And that's a fair enough and honest point of view. I'm not a million miles away from it, tbh.

It would be impossible for me to stop supporting Hibs regardless of how good or bad they, or the league they played in.

However, the idea that Scottish football would somehow flourish into a product which would have TV companies, sponsors and fans flocking to it is sheer fantasy and wishful thinking.

You know all the "dead wood" in our squad that folk want rid of? We'd get rid of them alright, or rather they'd get rid of us. Heckingbottom said the Premiership was about the same as the English league one. "Bottom half". We'll be non league equivalent if/when Rantic bugger off.

It would be like watching York City except without the hope of progressing into a higher league.

It's entirely out of our hands anyway so no point worrying about them going, or looking forward to it.

[Brightside]

Some people saying they would rather have a worse standard of player? Its already pretty poor. If thats the level of football you want to watch pick a team in the first div as its pretty competitive.

Improving the product is what keeps the game going.

[blackpoolhibs]

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And that's a fair enough and honest point of view. I'm not a million miles away from it, tbh.

It would be impossible for me to stop supporting Hibs regardless of how good or bad they, or the league they played in.

However, the idea that Scottish football would somehow flourish into a product which would have TV companies, sponsors and fans flocking to it is sheer fantasy and wishful thinking.

You know all the "dead wood" in our squad that folk want rid of? We'd get rid of them alright, or rather they'd get rid of us. Heckingbottom said the Premiership was about the same as the English league one. "Bottom half". We'll be non league equivalent if/when Rantic bugger off.

It would be like watching York City except without the hope of progressing into a higher league.

It's entirely out of our hands anyway so no point worrying about them going, or looking forward to it.

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Some people saying they would rather have a worse standard of player? Its already pretty poor. If thats the level of football you want to watch pick a team in the first div as its pretty competitive.

Improving the product is what keeps the game going.

The game is bent, it does not matter what quality of player we have, we will be cheated at every opportunity.

The game is rigged from the top down, 2 clubs are treated differently from the rest of us and everything is done to make sure they win at all cost.

Messi could play for us, and the fenian ******* would be sent off every week for diving.

I'm personally at the stage where i dont care about Scottish football much now, obviously i love Hibs and want them to do well, but knowing we wont be allowed to, is just soul destroying.

[stuart-farquhar]

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The game is bent, it does not matter what quality of player we have, we will be cheated at every opportunity.

The game is rigged from the top down, 2 clubs are treated differently from the rest of us and everything is done to make sure they win at all cost.

Messi could play for us, and the fenian ******* would be sent off every week for diving.

I'm personally at the stage where i dont care about Scottish football much now, obviously i love Hibs and want them to do well, but knowing we wont be allowed to, is just sole destroying.

Sorry about your shoes.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Sorry about your shoes.

Sorted now.

[KeithTheHibby]

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You do realise you have to focus on the immediate future? If you don’t get through that then there’s no long term future. Unfortunately, most, if not all Scottish clubs wouldn’t survive the short term future in there current form.

Absolute rubbish. You think them leaving would happen overnight? There would be a substantial period allowed giving all clubs time to get their house in order.

[GreenCastle]

I do wonder if there will be a time when large number of fans just stop going to Old Firm games or boycott them.

I think Hibs and Hearts home crowds are already starting to do this against them more than people realise.

The Old Firm are also in a period of time when the Champions League will become a thing of a past for them as other teams improve. They are miles away from teams like Liverpool / Man City etc.

It amazes me the clubs in Scotland don’t stand together to look for change / new set up.

I think fans will over time stop attending and non old firm crowds will drop if the gap continues to widen and slim chance to win anything. I’m aware some crowds are up and even away followings may be up but the way things are going fans could easily stop very quickly especially with the cost of living and other priorities for many.

[Alex Trager]

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While a more competitive league sounds great, I think the reality is that even more fans would be attracted to them than there is now if they are playing EPL teams every week.

Agree.

[zitelli62]

Another way would be summer football without the uglies, better weather better pitch and tv companies would buy it as it would give them something competitive to show in the summer Scandinavian countries seem to do it OK.

[Hibbyradge]

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Absolute rubbish. You think them leaving would happen overnight? There would be a substantial period allowed giving all clubs time to get their house in order.

How do you know?

Given that they would be abandoning the rest of us, what makes you think they'd give a monkey's about our readiness?

Even the Super league, which have involved 20 teams from several countries, was planned to start next season. That was a totally new entity, built from scratch. That timescale wouldn't be needed if Rantic just joined the existing EPL.

Players might be on long contracts, players who teams couldn't afford without the TV money. They might not be able to get similar deals elsewhere so they'll still be a huge financial burden and overheads won't decrease.

Does anyone think that the EPL or any other body would feel like compensating the remaining clubs? I don't.

Obviously it's all speculation but I'm pretty sure that we'd see clubs folding.

[Hibbyradge]

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Another way would be summer football without the uglies, better weather better pitch and tv companies would buy it as it would give them something competitive to show in the summer Scandinavian countries seem to do it OK.

And there wouldn't be any of that pesky European football to mess with the fixture list.

[Stubbsy90+2]

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Absolute rubbish. You think them leaving would happen overnight? There would be a substantial period allowed giving all clubs time to get their house in order.

You’ve absolutely no idea how long it would take, nobody does.

As HR pointed out, the super league was due to start next season. We’ll have players who would be under contract from before that concept was announced until next season. If we use that time frame as an example (and as HR said, that’s a whole new league concept rather than two teams getting dropped into an already established league), then these players would be perfectly entitled to demand we honour that contract. And that would prove extremely problematic when the money has all but disappeared.

One things for sure, if the opportunity came up for them to leave for a richer league, they’d take it without a thought for anybody left behind.

[Stubbsy90+2]

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How do you know?

Given that they would be abandoning the rest of us, what makes you think they'd give a monkey's about our readiness?

Even the Super league, which have involved 20 teams from several countries, was planned to start next season. That was a totally new entity, built from scratch. That timescale wouldn't be needed if Rantic just joined the existing EPL.

Players might be on long contracts, players who teams couldn't afford without the TV money. They might not be able to get similar deals elsewhere so they'll still be a huge financial burden and overheads won't decrease.

Does anyone think that the EPL or any other body would feel like compensating the remaining clubs? I don't.

Obviously it's all speculation but I'm pretty sure that we'd see clubs folding.

Spot on again.

The thought of football without the Old Firm, with sell out crowds, tv deals better than our current one because the league would be more competitive are great. They’re complete fantasy though. TV deals etc aren’t given out based on competitiveness. If you lose the only two teams that matter when it comes to finances, then the whole league will go to ****.

[Donegal Hibby]

I think if the uglies did ever leave the main issue would be the sky deal , sponsorship money etc which would be a massive lose to all clubs .

Though would reconstruction of the league and rebranding it were we'd have a league were 5 or 6 teams can win it and god knows how many could win a cup too . The league wouldn't get the same money without the old firm though maybe it could get over half , two thirds or so .

There still could be outside investment even if the old firm left which might keep the quality at a decent enough level too .

As it is we might be getting more money with the old firm now though look what's happening to the league as imo it's getting strangled abit more every year with corruption and it becoming a case of there's only two teams that going to win the trophies . 3 biggest clubs outside the old firm Hibs , hertz and Aberdeen and it's going on to 8 years since we won anything .

Financially we'd probably be worse off though having a fair , competitive league were there's different winners most years of all the silverware I think would see attendances increase alot . while it would be a struggle in the beginning the thought of no old firm is quite appealing imo .

[Stubbsy90+2]

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I think if the uglies did ever leave the main issue would be the sky deal , sponsorship money etc which would be a massive lose to all clubs .

Though would reconstruction of the league and rebranding it were we'd have a league were 5 or 6 teams can win it and god knows how many could win a cup too . The league wouldn't get the same money without the old firm though maybe it could get over half , two thirds or so .

There still could be outside investment even if the old firm left which might keep the quality at a decent enough level too .

As it is we might be getting more money with the old firm now though look what's happening to the league as imo it's getting strangled abit more every year with corruption and it becoming a case of there's only two teams that going to win the trophies . 3 biggest clubs outside the old firm Hibs , hertz and Aberdeen and it's going on to 8 years since we won anything .

Financially we'd probably be worse off though having a fair , competitive league were there's different winners most years of all the silverware I think would see attendances increase alot . while it would be a struggle in the beginning the thought of no old firm is quite appealing imo .

No chance we’d get anywhere near half the money imo.

The OF fans account for way over half the viewing figures of our league. The Edinburgh derby would be the biggest game in our league and they don’t even want to show that on TV a lot of the time now and that’s despite the fact we’re much better teams currently than we would be without the Old Firm.

As far as TV companies go, they would have no real interest, same as now in that they’ve no interest in our league unless it’s the OF. We’d get a pittance.

[SickBoy32]

I wonder how much TV revenue makes up as a proportion of SPL clubs income? I'd guess fairly low (maybe in the region of 20-30% on average?), given the reliance from most clubs on ticket sales. On that basis, I'd suggest that clubs would not fold, and indeed some could prosper in a fair and competitive domestic game. (Similar to the Championship)

The OF will never leave in reality, but I think the doom mongers predicting clubs going to the wall (St J and Livi would likely struggle due to virtually zero fanbase) are wide of the mark.

It's also pretty bleak to read that a lot of our fans view the OF as necessary to survival, that's exactly the subservient attitude that successive boards- (of all clubs) have had, and led us to where we are currently. We allow them to ride over the top of us (in a variety of ways) and we just meekly accept it.

Give me a reduction in quality (we're ***** anyway, Euro results for at least the last 15 years for ourselves, Sheep hearts support this) for a league setup that isn't totally rigged from the get go.

[Smartie]

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No chance we’d get anywhere near half the money imo.

The OF fans account for way over half the viewing figures of our league. The Edinburgh derby would be the biggest game in our league and they don’t even want to show that on TV a lot of the time now and that’s despite the fact we’re much better teams currently than we would be without the Old Firm.

As far as TV companies go, they would have no real interest, same as now in that they’ve no interest in our league unless it’s the OF. We’d get a pittance.

We'd get a relative pittance.

The vast majority of the current tv money (which still isn't brilliant) is munched up by the Glasgow clubs so there really isn't all that much left over to share between the remaining teams.

Instead of relying on Sky and co, we could be quite creative with a home made tv product that sells directly to the fans, those who would be most likely to be interested in it anyway.

The idea that either now or at any time in the future there is any real appetite for anyone outside Scotland to watch Scottish football is madness. We need to stop being so bloody grateful for the crumbs that are thrown our way to be the cannon fodder in the tedious Celtic Rangers thing.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

Was this not why we were being mugged off with 'b' teams so they could have the best of both worlds?

As much as deals relying on them I wouldn't shed a tear if they ****ed off. Interesting to see how long the **** sectarianism and guarenteed penalties would last

[neil7908]

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No chance we’d get anywhere near half the money imo.

The OF fans account for way over half the viewing figures of our league. The Edinburgh derby would be the biggest game in our league and they don’t even want to show that on TV a lot of the time now and that’s despite the fact we’re much better teams currently than we would be without the Old Firm.

As far as TV companies go, they would have no real interest, same as now in that they’ve no interest in our league unless it’s the OF. We’d get a pittance.

Genuine question (not just aimed at you, your post just seems the most relevant) but how do the likes of Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc get such cracking TV deals when they don't have any clubs the size of the OF? Even taking away the OF attendances, the likes of us, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee teams get decent crowds compared to our Scandi brothers but are miles and miles behind.



It's like we're drug addicts in Scotland - hooked on the OF as they slowly suck the life from the game.

[Hibbyradge]

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Financially we'd probably be worse off though having a fair , competitive league were there's different winners most years of all the silverware I think would see attendances increase alot . while it would be a struggle in the beginning the thought of no old firm is quite appealing imo .

Whose attendances would increase?

Certainly not the teams who won't have a chance of winning the league which in most years would be everyone barHibs, Hertz and the Sheep.

Every other team would see a huge dent in their gate money. Last season, Livingston's entire attendance was 71,766. Over 27,000 of that came from their 3 games against Rantic. That's getting on for close to 40% of their income. How do they make up for the loss of that along with the TV money and sponsorship?

Even if our attendances increased, we're not going to be getting 35000 every week into a stadium that holds shy of 20.5k. We averaged around 17.5k last season so the scope to increase our income in order to make up for the loss of TV cash and sponsorship is extremely limited.

[Stubbsy90+2]

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Genuine question (not just aimed at you, your post just seems the most relevant) but how do the likes of Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc get such cracking TV deals when they don't have any clubs the size of the OF? Even taking away the OF attendances, the likes of us, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee teams get decent crowds compared to our Scandi brothers but are miles and miles behind.



It's like we're drug addicts in Scotland - hooked on the OF as they slowly suck the life from the game.

I’ve no idea, I know little about the Scandi leagues tbh.

I don’t disagree the OF are sucking the life out the game. I don’t even disagree there would be an element of enjoyment from not having them. I think folk are kidding themselves on though if they think it would be a league of anything close to a decent standard though. It would be littered with part time teams imo. We’ve already got a few like Livi and St J who have budgets probably not all that much bigger than some part time sides. We’d be at the point where unless you were playing for Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen you’d likely be better off financially going and working a normal job and building a career that would last you a lifetime rather than being a full time footballer at any of the other sides for 10 years or so. That’s how poor it would be.

[Hibbyradge]

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I wonder how much TV revenue makes up as a proportion of SPL clubs income? I'd guess fairly low (maybe in the region of 20-30% on average?), given the reliance from most clubs on ticket sales. On that basis, I'd suggest that clubs would not fold, and indeed some could prosper in a fair and competitive domestic game. (Similar to the Championship)

The OF will never leave in reality, but I think the doom mongers predicting clubs going to the wall (St J and Livi would likely struggle due to virtually zero fanbase) are wide of the mark.

It's also pretty bleak to read that a lot of our fans view the OF as necessary to survival, that's exactly the subservient attitude that successive boards- (of all clubs) have had, and led us to where we are currently. We allow them to ride over the top of us (in a variety of ways) and we just meekly accept it.

Give me a reduction in quality (we're ***** anyway, Euro results for at least the last 15 years for ourselves, Sheep hearts support this) for a league setup that isn't totally rigged from the get go.

Please don't dismiss people who are answering the OPs question differently to you as "doom mongers". You're not being dismissed as romantic fantasists or accused of unicorn thinking.

It's a discussion. Without different viewpoints, it wouldn't be happening.

[Hibbyradge]

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Genuine question (not just aimed at you, your post just seems the most relevant) but how do the likes of Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc get such cracking TV deals when they don't have any clubs the size of the OF? Even taking away the OF attendances, the likes of us, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee teams get decent crowds compared to our Scandi brothers but are miles and miles behind.



It's like we're drug addicts in Scotland - hooked on the OF as they slowly suck the life from the game.

It's because they don't have the EPL on their doorstep.

[Hibee Daft]

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You're comparing a league from a country with 55 million people against one with 5.5 million people.

I remember the old League set up (just), it was pretty gash.

Since the SPL 12 team league setup theres only been 7 occasions when a team outside the old firm has been either 1st or second. In its 25 year history. (Thats including rangers not being in the league, so really only hearts)

If you look at prior to switching to 12 team league and use the 25 years as comparison so 1973 to 1998. There was 18 times a team outside the old firm finished 1st or 2nd.