Would Scottish football become better or worse without the old firm ?

[Hibbyradge]

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Remember when we were told Sevco getting booted out the league would result in "Armageddon"?

How did that turn out again for the rest of us? I've a feeling we might have had our best season in 50 odd years...

They didn't get booted out of the league. They didn't leave the Scottish League.

Did we have our best season for 50 years because they were out of the league? We got relegated in 2013.

We won the Scottish Cup but that had nothing to do with league status. Or am I on the wrong track?

[Stubbsy90+2]

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That's a whole load of doomsday conjecture there with nothing to back it up.

There’s nothing to back up every opinion on this thread.

[JJP]

There isn't much value in being the champions of Scotland without beating the best teams in Scotland. If anyone is ever going to challenge the old firm the only way it could possibly happen and still be meaningful is to increase the number of teams in the top league. It would still be unlikely but more likely than it is now.

[Haymaker]

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Is Scottish football shown regularly in any other countries? Genuine question, I don't see them here at all on telly with the exception of a very rare Euro tie involving the ugly sisters. In all of my 23 years here I've had a handful know of Celtic or Sevco, 2 who knew of Hibs and that's it.

It's on CBS and Paramount+

[Forza Fred]

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Is Scottish football shown regularly in any other countries? Genuine question, I don't see them here at all on telly with the exception of a very rare Euro tie involving the ugly sisters. In all of my 23 years here I've had a handful know of Celtic or Sevco, 2 who knew of Hibs and that's it.

Scottish football is important to Scottish people.

In Oz, it doesn’t get air time…..unless you pay for Bein Sports……which from memory used to show the Sunday afternoon game….usually involving one of the ugly sisters.


Bein was part of the main but ailing pay tv channel….Foxtel, but left Foxtel about 6 months ago

I don’t know how many have taken out a subscription to Bein, but I don’t know anyone who has it now.

[Since90+2]

According to Wikipedia the SPFl has broadcasting arrangements in around 60 countries across the world. That includes places like Vietnam and Kosovo.

Now obviously what is shown and viewership will vary massively, but it does appear to have broadcasting rights sold in a lot of countries.

[Forza Fred]

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According to Wikipedia the SPFl has broadcasting arrangements in around 60 countries across the world. That includes places like Vietnam and Kosovo.

Now obviously what is shown and viewership will vary massively, but it does appear to have broadcasting rights sold in a lot of countries.

Hibs TV is broadcast world wide too……..not sure what the viewing figures are though.

Be interesting to see them.

[lyonhibs]

It would be poorer financially but better in a sporting context. Relatively simple really, but will never happen in a million years. Nowhere else would choose to accept the hassle of thousands (more) of boozed up neanderthals singing songs referencing long past events and generally being horrid specimens in their country week in, week out.

We're stuck with them sadly.

[blackpoolhibs]

Is it better to be in a rigged league or a poorer league?

[Northernhibee]

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Tv Money would go out the window unfortunately, having a catastrophic effect.

I despise them both, but no tv company is going to throw many bucks at what is left.

Wages would drop to a level that would result in the SPL being unable to attract any decent foreign players, as the wages wouldn’t be worth leaving home for, and any aspiring local players would see a ‘big move’ as any move to the English lower leagues.

The league would eventually mirror the likes of the Irish league, certainly in terms of overseas interest.

The key is tv money……it might not be huge just now, but take out the ugly sisters and it would be negligible.

Wish we could find a way though

I wonder how much a subscription based model may work - kind of like a Disney Plus/Netflix style affair. Have it run through the leagues.

I thought that our PPV output through lockdown was pretty good and I’d pay to watch a league wide model.

[GreenCastle]

It would be better overall - but financially worse off.

All non firm clubs should come together to improve the game but they don’t seem to have the courage to do so.

Old Firm won’t go to England / they don’t need or want them.

They won’t join any super league as they aren’t super compared to some of the bigger teams.

The Old Firm are stuck being at a push a Europa league / conference league level team.

I still fully believe the non old firm crowds would go up and even some old firm fans may support local teams more in future if the game was cheaper and more community based.

Until change happens - Scottish football will always have old firm bias.

In the short term fans should just boycott games against them and clubs could even sell ST excluding games against them. I know they are considered CAT A but often get more enjoyment going to the other games more than the old firm games unless a Boyle hat trick type game or 2016 final where one off games we seem to have more of a chance of winning.

[Bobby's Cinema]

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Catastrophic.
You wouldn't see Sky etc for dust and that equates to £30 million a season out of the game in Scotland.
Our league would become a backwater like the League of Ireland and dying fans would be replaced by ever decreasing numbers of new supporters. The Bill Foley and Ron Gordons of the world wouldn't be interested in us.
Our stadiums would deteriorate season on season and we could never afford to replace them. They would eventually be sold for housing and the clubs would move to far smaller premises and once they had spent that windfall there would be nothing else to sell.

I don't feel like getting out of bed today after reading that

[Donegal Hibby]

One thing on the podcast I listened too was that it was said Scottish football had one of the best supported leagues in Europe going by population and attendances being on the up .

I do agree that without the old firm other clubs would lose a lot of money in the sky etc though I most admit the thought of starting a season being able to have a good chance of a league title or cup ( like many teams would ) i think would see attendances improve even more with a league that you'd have maybe 5 or 6 teams capable of winning ,

This for me I think would eventually have TV companies wanting the rights to show an exciting new league . Would the quality drop ? , maybe though we could still have the investment in our football club most Hibs fans want which might maintain the quality or even make it better .

I honestly do think eventually bigger clubs in Europe will try and maybe succeed in a super league wither the old firm become a part of that or move to England who knows ! . I do think that even now it will be something they will be aiming for in the future. Speaking of investment has anyone seen this about one of our rivals? .
https://www.aberdeenlive.news/sport/...urrows-8942854

[neil7908]

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They didn't get booted out of the league. They didn't leave the Scottish League.

Did we have our best season for 50 years because they were out of the league? We got relegated in 2013.

We won the Scottish Cup but that had nothing to do with league status. Or am I on the wrong track?

By league I meant SPL - we were told anything that would take Sevco away from the SPL would be absolutely catastrophic for Scottish football and it would be doomsday.

And yet, everything was fine. Plenty of fans found it a better experience (using the OPs term here).

The funny thing is, they will be away sooner or later anyway. There will be a Super League back on the agenda, and although the OF won't make it, there will be a version for medium sized clubs that they will gleefully take the chance to join.

They are slowly strangling the game right now, and given neither will vote against their own self interest, I honestly don't know how we affect any real change with them around.

[HoboHarry]

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Is it better to be in a rigged league or a poorer league?

I'll take the poorer league every day of the week if we genuinely have a real chance with every competition.

[KeithTheHibby]

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Remember when we were told Sevco getting booted out the league would result in "Armageddon"?

How did that turn out again for the rest of us? I've a feeling we might have had our best season in 50 odd years...

Correct. Remember covid? How many clubs went to the wall? None, same when Sevco were booted out the league.
Far too much short-termism thought in Scottish football. Generally the same on this thread with way too many posts focusing on the immediate future if those ***** were away.

[Hibee Daft]

What i'd prefer is reverting the league back to a 20 team league, 3 up and 3 down.

We'd get 38 games, only have to play celtic and the rangers twice.

Teams like Hibs, Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, Aberdeen etc would have abit more breathing room and that would allow them to bring in youth and develop styles of play without relegation fears.


If you look at the EPL and you changed there league format to ours it wouldnt take long for Man City/Liverpool to totally dominate and for a big team like Man utd to get relegated and fall even further behind.

[Stubbsy90+2]

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Correct. Remember covid? How many clubs went to the wall? None, same when Sevco were booted out the league.
Far too much short-termism thought in Scottish football. Generally the same on this thread with way too many posts focusing on the immediate future if those ***** were away.

You do realise you have to focus on the immediate future? If you don’t get through that then there’s no long term future. Unfortunately, most, if not all Scottish clubs wouldn’t survive the short term future in there current form.

[superfurryhibby]

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What i'd prefer is reverting the league back to a 20 team league, 3 up and 3 down.

We'd get 38 games, only have to play celtic and the rangers twice.

Teams like Hibs, Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, Aberdeen etc would have abit more breathing room and that would allow them to bring in youth and develop styles of play without relegation fears.


If you look at the EPL and you changed there league format to ours it wouldnt take long for Man City/Liverpool to totally dominate and for a big team like Man utd to get relegated and fall even further behind.

You're comparing a league from a country with 55 million people against one with 5.5 million people.

I remember the old League set up (just), it was pretty gash.

[Crunchie]

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I was listening to a podcast lately were a English journalist said he'd fear the worse for Scottish football if the uglies ever left to go to England, while this might never happen , what if it did ? . Financially I think most clubs would lose a lot of money without them on sky and gate money etc .

Though I was looking at who would have won the league , SC and LC without them since 2014/ 15 season onwards . Taking who finished 3rd and who got to the finals against them as winners .

League = Aberdeen 5 , Hibs , hertz ,killie , Motherwell 1 each .

SC= hertz 3 , Inverness 2 , Aberdeen , Hibs , St Johnstone, Motherwell 1each .

LC = Aberdeen 2 , Hibs , Dundee Utd, Ross county , St johnstone , Motherwell 1 each . ( two cup finals old firm ) .

I think this is fairly accurate though there could be a mistake somewhere . It's fairly competitive with alot of different winners for all the silverware . Would our league maybe thrive and become better with it being more competitive ? Could a league reconstruction if we lost the old firm with teams not playing each other as much be a good thing too ? . Abit of fantasy stuff though just wondering what other posters views were if the old firm left Scottish football ? .

100% it would.

[Crunchie]

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Is it better to be in a rigged league or a poorer league?

Exactly, who would give a toss if the standard dropped even though I don't think it would. 30% of the league would be in with a chance of winning it for sure

[HoboHarry]

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You do realise you have to focus on the immediate future? If you don’t get through that then there’s no long term future. Unfortunately, most, if not all Scottish clubs wouldn’t survive the short term future in there current form.

Most if not all of the clubs in Scotland would go to the wall if the uglies left? Possibly all? What a load of nonsense.

[Stubbsy90+2]

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Most if not all of the clubs in Scotland would go to the wall if the uglies left? Possibly all? What a load of nonsense.

What part of ‘in their current form’ is it that you are finding difficult?

If you don’t think that clubs would have to massively adapt if the Old Firm were to leave and that we could just carry on as we are with significantly less money then I can assure you it’s not me that’s talking nonsense.

[HoboHarry]

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What part of ‘in their current form’ is it that you are finding difficult?

If you don’t think that clubs would have to massively adapt if the Old Firm were to leave and that we could just carry on as we are with significantly less money then I can assure you it’s not me that’s talking nonsense.

For the part time clubs, what is the other form that they will switch to? I'm not taking you seriously if you are simply going to present sweeping generalisations with the worst possible scenario with no attempt at financial comparisons - what will the financial impact be for Forfar per season for example if Celtic and Sevco left?

[Stubbsy90+2]

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For the part time clubs, what is the other form that they will switch to? I'm not taking you seriously if you are simply going to present sweeping generalisations with the worst possible scenario with no attempt at financial comparisons - what will the financial impact be for Forfar per season for example if Celtic and Sevco left?

They’ll not be paying anywhere near what they’re paying now. That’s adapting and not carrying on in their current form. The whole pyramid would have so little money in it that every club would have to cut their cloth accordingly. Numerous full time clubs would have to go part time. Again, that’s adapting and not continuing in their current form.

I couldn’t care less if you’re ’taking me seriously’. It’s a hypothetical scenario on an internet forum that stands next to no chance of happening. I’d actually encourage you not to get yourself all excited and stop taking it seriously.

[HoboHarry]

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They’ll not be paying anywhere near what they’re paying now. That’s adapting and not carrying on in their current form. The whole pyramid would have so little money in it that every club would have to cut their cloth accordingly. Numerous full time clubs would have to go part time. Again, that’s adapting and not continuing in their current form.

I couldn’t care less if you’re ’taking me seriously’. It’s a hypothetical scenario on an internet forum that stands next to no chance of happening. I’d actually encourage you not to get yourself all excited and stop taking it seriously.

OK you don't know and don't know how to work it out. Gotcha. I'll leave you to your fantasy world.

[Stubbsy90+2]

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OK you don't know and don't know how to work it out. Gotcha. I'll leave you to your fantasy world.

Don’t know how to work what out? That a huge drop in income would see teams having to adapt and cut their cloth accordingly? I’m not sure it’s me that’s toiling with working that out.

And again, this whole thread is based on a fantasy situation.. you do realise the Old Firm aren’t leaving… surely? You’re going to be awfully disappointed when you find out that this thread isn’t a breaking news report.

[JammyDoidger]

The argument about being worse off financially is irrelevant as everyone would be in the same boat..I'd take a standard drop in player if it meant the league was actually competitive. It would be better in every way, and I'm sure crowds would go up by quite a bit also.

[HoboHarry]

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The argument about being worse off financially is irrelevant as everyone would be in the same boat..I'd take a standard drop in player if it meant the league was actually competitive. It would be better in every way, and I'm sure crowds would go up by quite a bit also.

Correct answer, agree completely.

[greenginger]

If the uglies could be made to do a Third Lanark and disappear all together that would be a great thing for Scottish football.

But whilst they still exist we are better off with them in our league than embarrassing us in any English or European league that would have them.