Would Scottish football become better or worse without the old firm ?

[Donegal Hibby]

I was listening to a podcast lately were a English journalist said he'd fear the worse for Scottish football if the uglies ever left to go to England, while this might never happen , what if it did ? . Financially I think most clubs would lose a lot of money without them on sky and gate money etc .

Though I was looking at who would have won the league , SC and LC without them since 2014/ 15 season onwards . Taking who finished 3rd and who got to the finals against them as winners .

League = Aberdeen 5 , Hibs , hertz ,killie , Motherwell 1 each .

SC= hertz 3 , Inverness 2 , Aberdeen , Hibs , St Johnstone, Motherwell 1each .

LC = Aberdeen 2 , Hibs , Dundee Utd, Ross county , St johnstone , Motherwell 1 each . ( two cup finals old firm ) .

I think this is fairly accurate though there could be a mistake somewhere . It's fairly competitive with alot of different winners for all the silverware . Would our league maybe thrive and become better with it being more competitive ? Could a league reconstruction if we lost the old firm with teams not playing each other as much be a good thing too ? . Abit of fantasy stuff though just wondering what other posters views were if the old firm left Scottish football ? .

[Kato]

"If".

Not going to happen ever.

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[Centre Hawf]

We may lose money which the bean counters across the league would hate and it would look bad on some graph to present to the various board members and owners. But in the grandscheme of things we'd likely all lose the same amount, from a sporting perspective it makes no real difference. However I can imagine for someone like Livi, Killie, and St Johnstone it may be a big deal to lose out on potentially selling out your ground 5/6 times a season.

But if you asked me I'd get rid of the two arse cheeks in a second and move on without them. But I doubt it will ever happen sadly, the English league won't take them into the Premier League instantly and they both wouldn't fancy their chances of having to start, and be stuck in, the Championship. That's even if they're allowed to start there.

[Donegal Hibby]

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"If".

Not going to happen ever.

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It probably won't though I think that at some point the ' super League ' attempt will be tried again . . Imo the bigger clubs are becoming more powerful and richer which develops into them becoming more greedy for more money . The thread was basically asking fans like yourself do you think our league would become worse without the revenue the old firm generate or would it get better without them .

[wookie70]

Better in all ways. Competition with quite a few teams able to win the league would be the major benefit and I think more fans would gravitate to their nearest clubs. I think attendances would go up too and we could more easily have a larger top league. No other league would be stupid enough to have them and I doubt if tehre was some sort of European League that both would get an invite so it will never happen, mores the pity

[leithsansiro]

"Worse off" is a very subjective position.
Financially, I think there's no doubt that every club would be worse off, as the likely reduced income from TV rights would be significant. Sponsorship would be impacted as there would be less eyeballs on the product.

However, from a sporting perspective, it'd be much, much better. More clubs would have a realistic chance of winning things, and I think that fans would watch that. Let's face it, a cup final or a league title decider between Aberdeen and Hibs, or Hearts and Motherwell, or whoever else, is much more intriguing. The difficulty is that the standard of players we have would drop, as clubs would have to cut wage bills to accommodate the financial burden. A greater range of clubs would have potential access to Europe though and the income that can bring.

Ultimately, what I think we'd end up with is a more competitive league, played in front of more fans in stadiums, though watching a inferior product on the pitch.

I wonder if longer term, TV interest and sponsorship would pick up again if the league was viewed as more competitive. Even though there would always be "top teams", likely ourselves, Hearts and Aberdeen, the distance to the others wouldn't be as insurmountable as it is now, and has been for years.

I hate modern football. The rich get richer and everyone else feeds on scraps. Having a league without the Old Firm would genuinely make Scottish football so much more interesting.

[Lago]

From a outside looking in view worse as TV and media would undoubtedly follow them to their new home. From the inside looking out probably keener competition, initially, but of less interest to aforementioned TV and media, how many people really take an interest in Irish football, North or South for instance.

[blackpoolhibs]

With them we just bend over and accept the pain, without them we could begin to see the start of a fair league for the first time since god knows when.

[JohnM1875]

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It probably won't though I think that at some point the ' super League ' attempt will be tried again . . Imo the bigger clubs are becoming more powerful and richer which develops into them becoming more greedy for more money . The thread was basically asking fans like yourself do you think our league would become worse without the revenue the old firm generate or would it get better without them .

Super league wouldn’t take them out of the Scottish Premiership though. It was to replace/challenge the current European format.

They’ll never be leaving Scottish football.

[HoboHarry]

Is Scottish football shown regularly in any other countries? Genuine question, I don't see them here at all on telly with the exception of a very rare Euro tie involving the ugly sisters. In all of my 23 years here I've had a handful know of Celtic or Sevco, 2 who knew of Hibs and that's it.

[McD]

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Better in all ways. Competition with quite a few teams able to win the league would be the major benefit and I think more fans would gravitate to their nearest clubs. I think attendances would go up too and we could more easily have a larger top league. No other league would be stupid enough to have them and I doubt if tehre was some sort of European League that both would get an invite so it will never happen, mores the pity

This. More competitive across the league, more chance to see your team either win something or be involved in an exciting campaign.

[ancient hibee]

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We may lose money which the bean counters across the league would hate and it would look bad on some graph to present to the various board members and owners. But in the grandscheme of things we'd likely all lose the same amount, from a sporting perspective it makes no real difference. However I can imagine for someone like Livi, Killie, and St Johnstone it may be a big deal to lose out on potentially selling out your ground 5/6 times a season.

But if you asked me I'd get rid of the two arse cheeks in a second and move on without them. But I doubt it will ever happen sadly, the English league won't take them into the Premier League instantly and they both wouldn't fancy their chances of having to start, and be stuck in, the Championship. That's even if they're allowed to start there.

You don’t mention that there would be very limited(if any) Tv coverage leading to no advertising or sponsorship. Scottish football would become semi professional.

[neil7908]

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Better in all ways. Competition with quite a few teams able to win the league would be the major benefit and I think more fans would gravitate to their nearest clubs. I think attendances would go up too and we could more easily have a larger top league. No other league would be stupid enough to have them and I doubt if tehre was some sort of European League that both would get an invite so it will never happen, mores the pity

Couldn't agree more. Imagine an end of season Edinburgh derby with the league title at stake? You'd sell out in minutes.

Competition drives up interest. There would be an unital hit from TV deals etc but I honestly think for a good chunk of the bigger clubs in Scotland it would be much better financially and on the pitch in the long run.

[stuart-farquhar]

Scottish football is all about them.

Always. The rest have minor supporting roles that shall always remain thus. Unfortunately the majority of the Scottish population have deeply ingrained cultures (The people v those we stamp upon) which is able to be openly displayed by allowing the useful idiots to congregate in the guise of football fans. Whilst many would never publicly condone this, well in private....

[allezsauzee]

While a more competitive league sounds great, I think the reality is that even more fans would be attracted to them than there is now if they are playing EPL teams every week.

[PHeffernan]

Catastrophic.
You wouldn't see Sky etc for dust and that equates to £30 million a season out of the game in Scotland.
Our league would become a backwater like the League of Ireland and dying fans would be replaced by ever decreasing numbers of new supporters. The Bill Foley and Ron Gordons of the world wouldn't be interested in us.
Our stadiums would deteriorate season on season and we could never afford to replace them. They would eventually be sold for housing and the clubs would move to far smaller premises and once they had spent that windfall there would be nothing else to sell.

[DH1875]

It would be worse. You'd just end up replacing rangers and celtic with Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts within 5 years. Thats the difficulty as we look at it as we'd be winning league (hopefully). For 90% of the other teams they'd still be the same except without the oldfirm.

[Donegal Hibby]

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Super league wouldn’t take them out of the Scottish Premiership though. It was to replace/challenge the current European format.

They’ll never be leaving Scottish football.

In the podcast I listened to the English journalist said they are to good for the league they are in but not good enough for Europe which is probably right . If Celtic and Sevco hierarchy got even a sniff of a chance to go to England or anywhere else they thought they would benefit from , I think they'd push to leave imo .

[JohnM1875]

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In the podcast I listened to the English journalist said they are to good for the league they are in but not good enough for Europe which is probably right . If Celtic and Sevco hierarchy got even a sniff of a chance to go to England or anywhere else they thought they would benefit from , I think they'd push to leave imo .

Aw I don’t doubt that. The issue is absolutely no one wants them. Not even the majority of fans up here. Can’t stand either of them

[Northernhibee]

It wouldn't attract as high viewing figures, but if the leagues and cups were to be rehauled then it could be quite interesting.

I like the idea of the league cup becoming a bit like the League Challenge Cup with teams from Northern Ireland and Wales invited along. Perhaps a few other leagues in Europe could be involved to help get the brand out.

I'd keep the Scottish Cup as it is.

In terms of the league, maybe look at leagues like the A-League. Have rules to help encourage the development of young Scottish players, maybe it involves a wage cap or something similar. Maybe there's some sort of tournament - like how the play offs work in lower leagues - to create a grand final. 4th plays 3rd, then the winner of that plays 2nd, then the last team standing in that takes on the league leaders.

If you can have measures in place to stop two teams filling the role that Celtic and Rangers fill now, and make decision making in the league more equitable between each of the teams, then it could become really interesting.

It would also be easier to expand the league out to 18-20 teams which would be more interesting. You could then change the pyramid beneath that to have a north/south or east/west league system to help make it easier for smaller teams to travel to games and in turn cut their running costs.

[Donegal Hibby]

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Aw I don’t doubt that. The issue is absolutely no one wants them. Not even the majority of fans up here. Can’t stand either of them

Your comment about nobody wanting them has me beat 😤😂🤣

[Hibbyradge]

Without the money the game gets from TV, and sponsorship, the better players would no longer come to Scotland so the product on the park would deteriorate.

More and more supporters would gravitate to Rantic who they would see on TV playing glamorous teams with top players and huge crowds.

Transfer income would decrease because there would be fewer good players to sell, but also because we'd be even bigger paupers than we are now. We'd be biting hands off for £300k never mind complaining about only getting £2.5m for McGinn.

European football would soon become a thing of the past with coefficients dropping like a stone. Gone with it would be the participation money, the exposure and the TV cash.

The only upside is that the Premiership might be more competitive but Scottish football is much more than just the top league.

Teams throughout the country, senior and junior, full time and part time, would lose income, income that most of them vitally need to stay in existence.

To sum up, our national sport would undoubtedly suffer at root and branch. Parts of it could be decimated.

Would we really want to risk all that so that a few more teams might have a chance a to win a devalued title?

If Rantic were to disappear altogether, then our game definitely would become better and stronger but while they exist they will continue to hoover up the money and hold the power whether in our league or next door's.

All imho, obvs.

[Yorkshire HFC]

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"If".

Not going to happen ever.

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The Super League will happen. It's just around the corner, and Rangers and Celtic will be involved with it. Loads of money for them.

I'm sure that the owners of all the other clubs know how they're going to deal with it.......

[Kato]

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The Super League will happen. It's just around the corner, and Rangers and Celtic will be involved with it. Loads of money for them.

I'm sure that the owners of all the other clubs know how they're going to deal with it.......

The late 80s is on the phone asking for its conjecture back.

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[whiskyhibby]

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While a more competitive league sounds great, I think the reality is that even more fans would be attracted to them than there is now if they are playing EPL teams every week.

I seriously doubt that they would have the same level of support after 5 years in the English leagues (possibly even EFL . They are unlikely to be competitive and other clubs won’t tolerate the behaviour seen with Celtic or Rangers fans for very long

[superfurryhibby]

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The Super League will happen. It's just around the corner, and Rangers and Celtic will be involved with it. Loads of money for them.

I'm sure that the owners of all the other clubs know how they're going to deal with it.......

I've long thought that this would happen. The expansion of the "Champions" League and the Europa Leagues have perhaps staved it off.

I guess that Ron Gordon would have wanted Hibs to be part of any such development (obviously at a lower level) if that was the way the wind was blowing.

There again, I also imagined that international football was close to being done, nothing in it for the big clubs really.

If Rantic were ever to be involved in any expanded European League, they would still find a way to play in Scotland too, the clubs would roll over for them, as they always do.

[Diclonius]

If they move to another league - no. Just.

If they cease to exist - hell yes.

[OstKurve Hibs]

We would all lose the same amount of money roughly so get them tf and the rest of us can just play fitba n not have t listen t there crap every time we play them !
Certain clubs would feel the pinch more than others, clubs that give them 70% of their stadiums, St Johnstone, livvy etc but they'll adapt.

[marinello59]

You don't improve your league by getting rid of the two strongest teams in it. Standards would drop like a stone as sponsorship levels dropped and our best players decamped to the English leagues.
They aren't wanted anywhere else anyway.

[Eyrie]

Better.

It would be much more competitive without two teams that are on a different planet financially to the 40 football teams and whose supporters' behaviour is appalling.

As regards where they'd go, who cares as long as we get rid of them?