SPFL Strategic Review

[King Cosell]

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Something needs to change. The current set up clearly isn't working.

We've been through all the permutations a million times, the current setup is the best. Every club's got something to play. If Dundee Utd or St Mirren were 8th or 9th in March, they could still make the top six and end up with a place in Europe or they could go down.

[Wakeyhibee]

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We've been through all the permutations a million times, the current setup is the best. Every club's got something to play. If Dundee Utd or St Mirren were 8th or 9th in March, they could still make the top six and end up with a place in Europe or they could go down.

They can do that without a split. In fact they wont be excluded with 5 games to go.

Every club has nothing to play for as it stands outside the cups. The survivalist football this has inbred over the years means Europe is a bit extra dosh but not a serious hope of doing well, we're that far behind now.

[bigwheel]

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We've been through all the permutations a million times, the current setup is the best. Every club's got something to play. If Dundee Utd or St Mirren were 8th or 9th in March, they could still make the top six and end up with a place in Europe or they could go down.

Agree completely …people often says these glib “it needs to change “ comments without recognising that we probably have the set up that makes more game meaningful and important than any other set up…I like the split, and I like the league size…it works..

I’m old enough to remember the bigger leagues….there were so many meaningless games. It would be dreadful today.


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[Wakeyhibee]

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Agree completely …people often says these glib “it needs to change “ comments without recognising that we probably have the set up that makes more game meaningful and important than any other set up…I like the split, and I like the league size…it works..

I’m old enough to remember the bigger leagues….there were so many meaningless games. It would be dreadful today.


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So am I just and they produced better players all round and in the context of the era it was played in. This set up works ish internally if you're excited about making top6, a euro spot you know you probably wont win more than 2 games against a minnow and avoiding relegation.

Times have changed, 3pts, better Stadia and pitches. It was done for reasons that belonged in the 70s ie falling attendances. Now the OF have lapped it up as mid ranking teams just try to survive and the gap has grown. Scotland cant afford to develop talent, it costs and the risk of relegation is to great.

Theres only 3 ever presents in the top flight outside Celtic this century. You cant plan with that attrition.

[Allez Hibs]

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I’m old enough to remember the bigger leagues….there were so many meaningless games. It would be dreadful today.


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It works? Really?

Why are there not so many meaningless games in the English Premier League then in a 20 team league? Or in Italy, Spain, France or Germany? Why is our top league structure not the benchmark for leagues across Europe?

The current set up does not work when you look at the quality of player when Scottish sides play in Europe or the pool of players for the Scottish National side. The League needs a long term plan with these things in mind and to benefit more clubs, not just Rangers Celtic Hibs Hearts and Aberdeen if they are protecting the pie for themselves.

[Allez Hibs]

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Theres only 3 ever presents in the top flight outside Celtic this century. You cant plan with that attrition.

That is staggering and highlights the here and now problem clubs have. There's no question that's the reason why we haven't seen more players come through our academy since East Mains was built and hold down a first team place.

When did we last produce a proper striker that held down a regular place?

It can't be a coincidence that Riordan and O Connor held their places due to the fact we relied on youth through necessity from 2002-2005 because they played every week and we're given proper time to develop, Steven Fletcher also emerged around 05.

We have finished in the top 6 10 times since that structure was brought in for the 00-01 season 20 years ago. As a fan base have we ever gotten excited about or celebrated clinching a top 6 place like say a Dundee have? I can't remember one.

[bigwheel]

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It works? Really?

Why are there not so many meaningless games in the English Premier League then in a 20 team league? Or in Italy, Spain, France or Germany? Why is our top league structure not the benchmark for leagues across Europe?

The current set up does not work when you look at the quality of player when Scottish sides play in Europe or the pool of players for the Scottish National side. The League needs a long term plan with these things in mind and to benefit more clubs, not just Rangers Celtic Hibs Hearts and Aberdeen if they are protecting the pie for themselves.

There are many many more meaningless games in those leagues. There are loads of teams who can’t get to Europe or relegated long before the season is finished…..almost every point you make here is wrong.. our structure works for us, because if the size and level of our teams. the quality of player has nothing to do with the league structure


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[bigwheel]

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So am I just and they produced better players all round and in the context of the era it was played in. This set up works ish internally if you're excited about making top6, a euro spot you know you probably wont win more than 2 games against a minnow and avoiding relegation.

Times have changed, 3pts, better Stadia and pitches. It was done for reasons that belonged in the 70s ie falling attendances. Now the OF have lapped it up as mid ranking teams just try to survive and the gap has grown. Scotland cant afford to develop talent, it costs and the risk of relegation is to great.

Theres only 3 ever presents in the top flight outside Celtic this century. You cant plan with that attrition.

The production of players has much more to do with the social environment and coaching approach than the league. Almost all Kids played football 3-4 hours every day back then, often more. That’s not the case now,
. We don’t have the talent pool we had then , not because of league structure . I’m talking about the league is much more interesting now. 20 team leagues would kill football here today.

I actually like the level of challenge he it is to succeed or to avoid relegation battles in our league. For me it makes it much mire exiting. If you increase the league and reduce that, crowds will fall, as many more games will become what they used to be, meaningless..

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[Hibs4185]

Good to see the new owners coming together and trying to challenge the status quo. There is a few easy fixes but whether there is appetite for change from the blazers and those with their self interest remains to be seen.

Exposure/reputation- start the season slightly earlier so teams are up to speed in European qualifying. If Hibs, Aberdeen or whoever can make the group stages of Europe, it raises the profile of the scottish game. Getting pumped out at the third round of qualifying isn’t great for the reputation of the scottish game. How hard is it to begin the season a month earlier? Not very

Young players- colts teams in the lower leagues. Not just rangers and Celtic but any premier league team who wants one/can afford one. Young players are then playing against seasoned players rather than development friendlies. Controversial but a no brainer for me. If Hibs colts v hearts colts in a cup competition or in the third division I’d probably pay for a ticket. I wouldn’t for a development game. Brings money into the lower league and brings on young players.

Bigger league - in my eyes Hibs are more likely to challenge playing the old firm twice a season rather than 4 times a season. Creates more interest at the top and a closer run competition. Whether the teams needed to expand the competition have the right facilities etc to be a good addition is another matter. Bit embarrassing having some of the smaller grounds on tv but with more money competing in the premiership they may be able to improve over a few years.

New Blood - Doncaster etc need emptied and more experienced commercial people need brought in with a fresh set of eyes, new ideas and no allegiances. Having the rangers director on the board for example is nonsense. Scudamore transformed the EPL, we need someone in a similar vein.

Anyway, all that will happen is the clubs will produce a report and it will be discussed to death for 5 years with nothing changing.

[LongJohnBanger]

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We've been through all the permutations a million times, the current setup is the best. Every club's got something to play. If Dundee Utd or St Mirren were 8th or 9th in March, they could still make the top six and end up with a place in Europe or they could go down.

Does this only apply to Dundee United or St. Mirren?

Only I read not too long ago that in Hibs case at least, European qualification / league placing was not an achievement.

[Peevemor]

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That is staggering and highlights the here and now problem clubs have. There's no question that's the reason why we haven't seen more players come through our academy since East Mains was built and hold down a first team place.

When did we last produce a proper striker that held down a regular place?

It can't be a coincidence that Riordan and O Connor held their places due to the fact we relied on youth through necessity from 2002-2005 because they played every week and we're given proper time to develop, Steven Fletcher also emerged around 05.

We have finished in the top 6 10 times since that structure was brought in for the 00-01 season 20 years ago. As a fan base have we ever gotten excited about or celebrated clinching a top 6 place like say a Dundee have? I can't remember one.

It's often said on here that Williamson was forced to play youngsters (O'Connor & Riordan), but I think the main reason they played relatively often at a young age is because they were above average talents.

In Williamson's first full season (02/03) we still had Mixu, Paco Luna (half season?) & Tam McManus to choose from along with Deek & Garry as well as Brebner & Murray chipping in from midfield.

The following season Deek & G'OC were established & scored 25 goals between them, but there was also Tam, Dobbie & Fletcher.

The pair of them along with Brown, Thomson & Whittaker got games because they were better than the established pros that were also there, not because there was nobody else.

Bobby Williamson maybe deserves a bit more credit in this respect.

[seanshow]

Remember the year long strategic review of 2008, antipation of an expanded league was shootie in or so we thought.
Proposal put forward = a ten team league.
Endorsed 6 months later by the then yes man first minister.

ffwrd to 2012, the chance to change Scottish football forever, and the 11v1 voting structure for major decisions, the then sheepies owner f***s us over for his own clubs short term gain, and the rest is history.

[hibbysam]

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It's often said on here that Williamson was forced to play youngsters (O'Connor & Riordan), but I think the main reason they played relatively often at a young age is because they were above average talents.

In Williamson's first full season (02/03) we still had Mixu, Paco Luna (half season?) & Tam McManus to choose from along with Deek & Garry as well as Brebner & Murray chipping in from midfield.

The following season Deek & G'OC were established & scored 25 goals between them, but there was also Tam, Dobbie & Fletcher.

The pair of them along with Brown, Thomson & Whittaker got games because they were better than the established pros that were also there, not because there was nobody else.

Bobby Williamson maybe deserves a bit more credit in this respect.

Fletch would’ve been 16/17 in that second season and was still playing in the 19s, both Dobbie and McManus were very early 20’s as well. There were no established pro’s in the squad, just a lot of very young attackers and Deek and O’Connor were the best of that bunch so played.

[Since452]

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We've been through all the permutations a million times, the current setup is the best. Every club's got something to play. If Dundee Utd or St Mirren were 8th or 9th in March, they could still make the top six and end up with a place in Europe or they could go down.

Agreed. The split is the one thing that is fantastic.

[Ozyhibby]

I can’t see how adding 6 teams weaker than the current 12 improves any league? Surely if you want to improve a league you ask better teams to join?


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[marinello59]

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I can’t see how adding 6 teams weaker than the current 12 improves any league? Surely if you want to improve a league you ask better teams to join?


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[MrSmith]

Due to the insular exclusivity of the SPFL, teams like Dunfermline, Raith, Partick etc. are losing supporters hand over fist. Absolutely shameful! I'm 100% for changing the league to more teams.

[Peevemor]

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100%

Also due to the insular exclusivity of the SPFL, teams like Dunfermline, Raith, Partick etc. are losing supporters hand over fist. Absolutely shameful!

I don't understand how this ties in with you being 100% in agreement with Ozy.

[Since452]

I'm really enjoying the league just now. Having the Edinburgh and Dundee derbies back is brilliant. I like the split and i like the relegation/promotion playoffs. 12 teams is bang on i reckon.

[Allez Hibs]

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I'm really enjoying the league just now. Having the Edinburgh and Dundee derbies back is brilliant. I like the split and i like the relegation/promotion playoffs. 12 teams is bang on i reckon.

How is the current set up bang on? Playing each other 4 times a season just hands the title to either Rangers and Celtic?

How is the 11-1 voting structure a good thing meaning nothing for the benefit of the whole game gets voted through?

The current set up is totally weighted towards the old firm succeeding.

Hibs Hearts Aberdeen Dundee and Dundee Utd need to be brave here and not look after just their own interests but the bigger picture.

Is it really desirable for more of the same for the next 25 years, where we know either Rangers or Celtic will win the league before the start of each season, if so then what's really the point of Hibs Hearts Aberdeen even existing?

[MrSmith]

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I don't understand how this ties in with you being 100% in agreement with Ozy.

Correct, misread the post so now edited.

[The Modfather]

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I can’t see how adding 6 teams weaker than the current 12 improves any league? Surely if you want to improve a league you ask better teams to join?


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For me it’s not about improving the league by adding better teams but making changes to make it greater than the sum of its parts.

I’m not sure playing the likes of Motherwell or Livingston 4 times a season and possibly again in the cups is anymore desirable than playing Killie, Patrick, Raith or Ayr, as someone else mentioned, twice a season.

My preference would be to go with an 18 team league.There’s plenty of meaningless games in the current set up. If you just miss out on the arbitrary top 6, and are in no danger of relegation you have 5 dead rubbers to play out before you can finish the season. A scenario we have encountered in the not so distant past.

I’d look to have a root and branch clear out of those running the SPFL and bring in an external governing body. Doncaster takes a lot of stick, and rightly so, but he represents the clubs and it is them who keep him in his post. I don’t think any club, ours included, acts in the interest of the greater good or backs changes unless it benefits them. The fans don’t have a voice. The last review the fans backed a larger league but a 10 team league was proposed and backed by Hibs. You only have to look at Ron coming in as an outsider to see the benefits and new ideas he has brought with him. We missed a trick not getting Barry Hearn involved when he was interested. I’d reach out to him again.

The voting structure and distribution of money, across all leagues, but appreciate this is an SPFL review, needs reviewed, not just with the biggest two/biggest five clubs in mind.

I’d also like to copy the gentleman’s agreement the Dutch league had/has in terms of homegrown players in the matchday squad.

Once we sort the SPFL let’s start the SFA reform. Anyone any idea what Petrie’s vision is or what he’s doing differently 2 or 3 years down the line?

[Allez Hibs]

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For me it’s not about improving the league by adding better teams but making changes to make it greater than the sum of its parts.

I’m not sure playing the likes of Motherwell or Livingston 4 times a season and possibly again in the cups is anymore desirable than playing Killie, Patrick, Raith or Ayr, as someone else mentioned, twice a season.

My preference would be to go with an 18 team league.There’s plenty of meaningless games in the current set up. If you just miss out on the arbitrary top 6, and are in no danger of relegation you have 5 dead rubbers to play out before you can finish the season. A scenario we have encountered in the not so distant past.

I’d look to have a root and branch clear out of those running the SPFL and bring in an external governing body. Doncaster takes a lot of stick, and rightly so, but he represents the clubs and it is them who keep him in his post. I don’t think any club, ours included, acts in the interest of the greater good or backs changes unless it benefits them. The fans don’t have a voice. The last review the fans backed a larger league but a 10 team league was proposed and backed by Hibs. You only have to look at Ron coming in as an outsider to see the benefits and new ideas he has brought with him. We missed a trick not getting Barry Hearn involved when he was interested. I’d reach out to him again.

The voting structure and distribution of money, across all leagues, but appreciate this is an SPFL review, needs reviewed, not just with the biggest two/biggest five clubs in mind.

I’d also like to copy the gentleman’s agreement the Dutch league had/has in terms of homegrown players in the matchday squad.

Once we sort the SPFL let’s start the SFA reform. Anyone any idea what Petrie’s vision is or what he’s doing differently 2 or 3 years down the line?

Agree with all of that.

Not getting Barry Hearn involved last time was a missed opportunity.

It can't be progressive to go forward with this current structure.

A 10 team league would be completely pointless and the joke of European Football.

[WhileTheChief..]

It's a polite way for Ron and Dave etc to get rid of the current exec.

They'll put a plan forward and if the smaller club don't agree we'll see a breakaway again.

Id imagine the old firm are in agreement with the 5 clubs but are just staying out the spotlight for a change.

[Brightside]

Playing teams 4 times a season is just boring. Extend the league. Reduce the overall number of “league” teams. Two leagues of 20. 2 up 2 down at all levels.

[Ozyhibby]

The revue is about increasing the revenues of the league, not about making the competition fairer. There is no way the leagues revenues get bigger by introducing smaller clubs.
The press release tells you this but still people carry on fantasising about 20 team leagues.


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[Tommy75]

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I wonder if teams selling ppv for their own games has had an impact on how clubs look at the tv deal and it’s insistence on four bigotfests every year. The tv deal has always been the thing that has held back change in this country, clubs reliance on that money stops any meaningful reconstruction.

The current TV deal is a disgrace that shafts every club in the league other than The Rangers and Celtic.

[Allez Hibs]

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The revue is about increasing the revenues of the league, not about making the competition fairer. There is no way the leagues revenues get bigger by introducing smaller clubs.
The press release tells you this but still people carry on fantasising about 20 team leagues.


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It's pretty obvious a bigger league playing each other twice provides a better chance of Hibs Hearts or Aberdeen winning the league. Aberdeen might have won the league a few years ago if it was home and away against every team. Every supporter of these clubs should want a bigger league playing each other twice. Forget revenues, isn't football about trying to be successful? Sporting integrity and all that.

[Ozyhibby]

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It's pretty obvious a bigger league playing each other twice provides a better chance of Hibs Hearts or Aberdeen winning the league. Aberdeen might have won the league a few years ago if it was home and away against every team. Every supporter of these clubs should want a bigger league playing each other twice. Forget revenues, isn't football about trying to be successful? Sporting integrity and all that.

But the revue is about increasing revenue. They have made that really really clear. It’s about finding more money to compete in Europe.
So talk of 18/20 teams leagues is a waste of oxygen.


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[Billy Whizz]

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But the revue is about increasing revenue. They have made that really really clear. It’s about finding more money to compete in Europe.
So talk of 18/20 teams leagues is a waste of oxygen.


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Did Ron not say somewhere a few weeks ago, that we had too many clubs in the SPFL?